Patterico's Pontifications

9/16/2014

Cracking Open The Door: US Troops On The Battlefield In Iraq?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:13 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The nation’s top military officer opened the door slightly today to the possibility of American troops accompanying Iraqi forces on the battlefield against ISIS if needed.

The latest deployment of 475 American forces to Iraq includes 150 advisers who will be working closely with Iraqi brigades at the headquarters level to coordinate the Iraqi military’s offensive operations against ISIS.

Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that the advisers “will help the Iraqis conduct campaign planning, arrange for enabler and logistics support, and coordinate coalition contributions.”

“To be clear, if we reach the point where I believe our advisers should accompany Iraqi troops on attacks against specific ISIL targets, I will recommend that to the president,” said Dempsey, using one of several acronyms for the militant Islamic group that has taken over a large swath of Syria and Iraq. The group calls itself the Islamic State.

Gen. Dempsey also reminded the committee:

[P]resident Obama has given the order for no combat troops in Iraq, but “he has told me as well, to come to him on a case-by-case basis.”

–Dana

59 Responses to “Cracking Open The Door: US Troops On The Battlefield In Iraq?”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  2. sheer idiocy from the First Incompetent

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  3. when these mugs say “let me be clear” or “to be clear” or whatever, they’re lying their azzes off.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  4. I was against troops until I was for them.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  5. Valerie Jarrett and Obama have one goal and only one goal: Do as absolutely as little as possible about ISIS while appearing to do something until 2016 and leave the mess for the next President to clean up.

    They didn’t win that Nobel Peace Prize for nothing.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  6. So proud to be part of a nation that is run by a lying golfer.

    mg (31009b)

  7. it’s been – whoa – since round about that libya thing that failmerica’s stepped on its dick in the middle east right and proper

    let’s roll!

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  8. Not quite sheer idiocy; sure, the Commander-in-Chief should be expecting to need it, but it seems better strategically speaking that a categorical “NEVER!!!”
    Of course this only means that “advisers” might go on a mission, not that we might send an independent force into action.

    Personally, I think we should have already sent in at least 30 thousand soldiers to correct the Islamic State in a language they can understand; namely, “BOOM! You’re dead.”

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  9. Dempsey also said that applied to Iraq but not to Syria.

    And 2/3 of ISIS’s troops are in Syria.

    In Syria no attacks, not by anyone. For now.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  10. I think Obama and his liberal amen chorus has been promising “no boots on the ground,” so maybe they are just going to make these advisors wear tennis shoes and consider it a promise kept. Teva sandals are OK for after hours in the desert.

    JVW (638245)

  11. Is the media still fixated on those JV clowns? Isn’t it about time to pivot to the economy?

    Edoc118 (c37322)

  12. Not totally OT: This week the MFM was reporting Federal spending at just $589 Billion for the fiscal year two weeks from its conclusion.

    Oddly they do not report that the public debt is up just over $1 Trillion over that same period.

    I’m pretty sure that cannot continue.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  13. be real

    obama’s never even owned a pair of boots

    he just knows about them from advertising

    he’s a useless effete choom-choom whore is why

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  14. 8. …Personally, I think we should have already sent in at least 30 thousand soldiers to correct the Islamic State in a language they can understand; namely, “BOOM! You’re dead.”

    Ibidem (d88ff4) — 9/16/2014 @ 7:32 pm

    Concur. Former CENTCOM commander Gen. Zinni was on a Sunday talk show a few weeks back saying we shouldn’t be so paranoid about sending in ground forces. He believes to USMC brigades would be sufficient to roll ISIS back into Syria. Which is right in the ball park of 30k Marines.

    I defer to him on numbers. I’m convinced we need ground forces for a variety of reasons. Training the Peshmerga and Iraqi security forces to work with US air support while fighting ISIS is a fools errand. It’s no time for OJT. The Marines already know how it works. Also, US forces serve as portable spines. Something the Iraqi officer corps has demonstrated they don’t have. Finally, it’s easier and more effective to lead from the front. This broad coalition President Tiger Beat and Secretary of State Seabiscuit keep talking about isn’t materializing because it’s clear we aren’t serious about this fight.

    Of course, since this klown kar administration isn’t serious and is essentially modeling this latest adventure on its wonderfully successful intervention in Libya we won’t send in ground troops. And we won’t have allies. Of course, they’ll lie about that like Obama lied about keeping your doctor, or how he lied about he wasn’t referring to ISIS when he called ISIS the jayvee team, or how he lied…

    Well, you get the point.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  15. There are definitely boots on the ground.

    They’ve been promising no combat.

    Except maybe, it turns out, in exceptional circumstances.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  16. #13: he’d be a better Presentdent with one of my old GI boots in his sorry ass.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  17. Two brigades, push ISIS back to Syria.

    Zinni came up with the basics of a workable plan in something like 30 seconds.

    Professor Ditherington McBombyDrones is still constipated when it comes to divoting pivoting toward national security and $@%^ing one out.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  18. Can we rename the President, Woodrow Obama? Just asking.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  19. Why do we have BOOTS?
    Where can our BOOTS be “on the ground”?
    Obama, and his clown posse, Kerry and Rice, continue to repeat the nonsensical political mantra of “No boots on the ground”, because the Dimbulb in Chief has directed them to do so. Pathetic wimpish clowns. Comments??

    Gus (70b624)

  20. Mr. 80 the recipe of the week at meatlessmonday.com is…

    italian white beans with kale!!!

    obama = legacy = delicious!

    so stop grousing mister

    we’ve seen the future and it’s effing delectable

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  21. It’s not no ground troops that he is promising, it is not no combat that he is promising, but no combat on the ground.

    Josh Earnest was very very clear about that today.

    To review:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/10/remarks-president-barack-obama-address-nation

    In June, I deployed several hundred American servicemembers to Iraq…Now…. we will send an additional 475 servicemembers to Iraq. As I have said before, these American forces will not have a combat mission –- we will not get dragged into another ground war in Iraq.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/11/press-briefing-press-secretary-josh-earnest-9112014

    So it’s important to remember that for all of America’s military might, the President is not contemplating sending American combat troops in a combat role back onto the ground in Iraq or in Syria, but rather airstrikes that could be used in support of ground offensives by Iraqi security forces or Kurdish security forces….the President did make a decision, as you will note from the speech last night, to send additional American military personnel to Iraq to serve in an advise-and-assist capacity, to bolster the capacity of Iraqi security forces. But those individuals will not be engaged in combat operations..

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/16/press-gaggle-press-secretary-josh-earnest-en-route-atlanta-georgia-91614

    Q Josh, I wanted to ask you about General Dempsey’s testimony today. He said that under certain circumstances he could see himself asking the President to allow advisers on the ground to participate in combat operations. I wonder if the President is open to that, if that recommendation would come from General Dempsey.

    MR. EARNEST: Jim, I think, as was clear from General Dempsey’s remarks, that he was referring to a hypothetical scenario in which there might be a future situation in which he might make a tactical recommendation to the President as it relates to the use of ground troops…. the President does not believe that it would be in the best interest of our national security to deploy American ground troops in a combat role in Iraq and Syria. That policy has not changed.

    Q So under no circumstances would there be boots on the ground?

    MR. EARNEST: Well, precision is important here. And what the President has been very clear about is the role of American forces in Iraq. The President has deployed American servicemen and women — a limited number of them — to serve in an advise-and-assist capacity, to staff joint operation centers, to defend the embassy in Baghdad and the consulate in Erbil. So there are American service personnel in Iraq.

    There are also, obviously, American servicemen and women who are engaged in some of the air combat operations, right? There are more than 150 strikes, I believe, that have been announced by Central Command that have taken place at the direction of the President.

    But what he’s been very specific and precise about is that he will not deploy ground troops in a combat role into Iraq or Syria.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  22. I am far more concerned about the military deployment to ground zero in the Ebola epidemic than a deployment against ISIS. Our troops have the tools and the training to wage war; they’ll be sitting ducks in West Africa. The proposed deployment to West Africa speaks volumes about President Obama’s disregard for the safety of our servicemen and women. Also, if there is a pathway by which Ebola makes its presence felt here at home, the conduit could easily be our returning Ebola-fighters.

    Dana, why is nobody talking about this?

    ThOR (130453)

  23. Steve57, Obama is not interested in winning anything, nor is he interested in protecting you nor your family, nor is Obama in any way concerned about who ISIS is. He is concerned with his own EGO and his own pathetic dithering. We continue to BELIEVE, that Obama thinks like us. He doesn’t. His pathetic driveling speeches and his marching orders always begin and end with his POLITICAL IDEOLOGICAL PHILOSOPHY. In short his DADDY ISSUES. “IF” ISIS is not MUSLIM, then why does Obama hesitate to KILL all of THEM. If these terrorists are not TRUE MUSLIMS, then why the Hallal meals at Gitmo, and WHY WOULD THE Q’RAN be given to them, and why would accusations of butt wiping and flushing of the q’ran have any legs? Their not Muslims? Right??

    Gus (70b624)

  24. President Obama has appointed General John R. Allen (who was caught up in the Petraeus scandal and sort of forced to retire) to co-ordinate the entire anti-ISIL strategy, and deployed him to the State Department.

    His title is:

    Special Presidential Envoy for the Global Coalition to Combat ISIL.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  25. ThOR hit the nail on the head.

    President Boyfriend is devoting more U.S. ground troops to fighting the ebola than to fighting ISIS/ISIL/the Islamic State and potentially putting them at greater risk.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. I was going to put up a post on that, ThOR. Long day… give me a few minutes.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  27. 22. They probably do know what they are doing. If the military is not good at infection control, we have a very very big problem, even without ebola.

    23. They are Islamic heretics, so they get Halal meals – that is anyway original al Qaeda in Guantanamo – but they are not truly Islamic.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  28. Hahahahahahahahaha, The State Dept coordinating our battle plans. What happened to this Nation

    Gus (70b624)

  29. No criticism intended, Dana.

    I love your posts.

    Heck, I’m beginning to forget who that Patterico guy is.

    ThOR (130453)

  30. By gum, happy, I eat beef on Monday, I eat beef on Tuesday and on Wednesday I eat beef. On Thursdays I shoot sheep and bury them so no one has to endure mint jelly. On Friday I go fishing and eat beef.

    On Saturday, I go to the garden and harvest some greens for my wife, cook the fish and throw it away. I kiss my wife’s forehead and dread her passing from lack of beef. On Sunday, I rest, then eat some pork and remember the hated Hun.

    Here’s a recipe to remember the hated Hun. I think I called her Grandmother Hun.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  31. Sammy. Are the Muslims or are they NOT Muslims? Obama says they are not. What do you say Sammy???? Hahahahahahahahaha. Pathetic weasel nonsense.

    Gus (70b624)

  32. i never done my own corned beef cause of here we have neighborhood pub

    but someday i might have to so thank you for the recipe

    my sister says you can get the corned beef cheap at costco after the holiday and freeze it

    which sounds like an eminently sensible frugal and tasty idea if you ask me

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  33. More quotes:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/12/press-briefing-press-secretary-josh-earnest-9122014

    The President, in this case, believes that he does have the authority that he needs under the statutory authority, under the 2001 AUMF to carry out the military actions that he has ordered thus far. Those actions, again, would not include the deployment of ground combat troops into Iraq or Syria, and all of this would take place under the rubric of a broader international coalition…

    The President has been clear that American ground combat troops would not be deployed into Iraq and Syria….

    ….We are not contemplating a significant commitment of ground troops to Iraq. We’re certainly not contemplating the deployment of ground troops into combat in Iraq or in Syria.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/15/press-briefing-press-secretary-josh-earnest-9152014

    The goal here is to ensure that we have — or that there is a fighting force on the ground in Syria that can take the fight to ISIL in Syria. The President has ruled out the use of American combat troops for that purpose….

    …Q And just to go back to what Denis McDonough said yesterday, he was asked on a number of occasions about boots on the ground, and he reiterated that you’re really looking at Iraqi and Syrian boots on the ground, and potentially some other partners that may come into the mix. But you’ve heard some critics up on Capitol Hill say that that’s just too limiting. Any second thoughts about just taking that completely off the table? Are you saying that that will never occur, U.S. combat boots on the ground? What if this escalates and becomes a longer, more protracted battle than you anticipated?

    MR. EARNEST: Jim, I can say definitively that the President has ruled out sending American boots on the ground to be engaged in a combat role in Iraq and in Syria. The strategy that the President has put forward to deal with the threat posed by ISIL in Iraq and Syria is substantially different from the strategy that was put in place in advance of the last conflict in Iraq. MR. EARNEST: Jim, I think, as was clear from General Dempsey’s remarks, that he was referring to a hypothetical scenario in which there might be a future situation in which he might make a tactical recommendation to the President as it relates to the use of ground troops….the President does not believe that it would be in the best interest of our national security to deploy American ground troops in a combat role in Iraq and Syria. That policy has not changed.

    This idea of waiting for Syrian rebels is no good. The Syrian rebels anyway have to use every man available to fight Assad. He’s still fighting them.

    What he needs is…

    …The Lebanese Army.

    Which can built up a lot faster.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  34. Imagine FDR dithering, putting, dancing and partying, whilst saying. THERE WILL BE NO BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN GERMANY!!!! And sending out his sycophantic CLOWNS to repeat the mantra over and over and over and over and over. Obama is a pathetic, psychologically damaged, Marxist Hack. Every word Obama says, is for Obama’s benefit. How the fluck would Obama know whether boots on the ground, might, would or could be necessary to win a WAR with VIOLENT, WELL ARMED, WELL FINANCED…..MUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZLIMS???? He doesn’t know, he merely knows that he has RUN HIS MOUTH and CANNOT BACK UP HIS LIES.

    Gus (70b624)

  35. I agree with Sammy, a mixed fruit conglomeration of various militias, lawyers, farmers and Doctors can be organized, financed, and trained to win a war that they don’t want to fight. For the FUXING LOVE OF GAWD, we are screwed until libs stop sniffing glue.

    Gus (70b624)

  36. 31. Gus (70b624) — 9/16/2014 @ 8:34 pm

    Sammy. Are the Muslims or are they NOT Muslims? Obama says they are not.

    He’s not saying they are not Muslims. He is saying they are not following Islam, or for taht matter, anything that can be called a religion at all.

    Obama, September 10, 2014:

    ISIL is not “Islamic.” No religion condones the killing of innocents. And the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim… ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way.

    So, there. He’s not going to call that a religion.

    And they’re not a state either, too!

    What do you say Sammy???? Hahahahahahahahaha. Pathetic weasel nonsense It doesn;t fit his definition of a religion, and since Islam is a religion, it is not Islamic. QED. It must be an Islamic heresy.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  37. 23. Steve57, Obama is not interested in winning anything, nor is he interested in protecting you nor your family, nor is Obama in any way concerned about who ISIS is. He is concerned with his own EGO and his own pathetic dithering. We continue to BELIEVE, that Obama thinks like us.

    Gus (70b624) — 9/16/2014 @ 8:21 pm

    Gus, I don’t know anybody who believes Obama thinks like us. If by “us” you mean people who want a strong, prosperous united states.

    I’ve been saying since the 2008 that Obama only wanted to become President of his enemies so he could help his anti-American friends. Leftists the world over got that point loud and clear, too; that’s why they gave him a preemptive Nobel peace prize.

    Of course he’s not serious about winning anything. It’s patently ridiculous that his plan doesn’t call for defeating ISIS any time during his second term. His plan calls for defeating a half-trained army of (current estimate) 31k troops in something over 3 years.

    Which is about the length of time we took to win WWII. Hello! Even I could get the job done in less than six months. That’s not bragging. I helped administratively separate people from the Navy who could come up with a better plan than President Justin Beiber. And execute it.

    No wonder he and horseface don’t have any eager volunteers to join the coalition of the confused.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  38. america : ally :: ebola : nutritional supplement

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  39. 2. sheer idiocy from the First Incompetent
    redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/16/2014 @ 7:14 pm

    More sheer idiocy from some second or third echelon Incompetent in the chain of command.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/joint-chiefs-chair-islamic-state-fighting-because-grievances_805213.html

    “The nature of the threat is such that, as I mentioned, it will only be defeated when moderate Arab and Muslim populations in the region reject it. And therefore, the way forward seems to me to run clearly through a coalition of Arab and Muslim partners, and not through the ownership of the United States on this issue. And so the strategy does that,” Dempsey said when asked whether he agrees with President Obama’s plan to degrade and destroy the Islamic State.

    “It seeks to build a coalition, encourage an inclusive government to address the grievances that have caused this in the first place, it applies U.S. military power where we have unique capability to do so, and over time it allows those populations to reject ISIL.”

    Dempsey did not specifically lay out the “grievances” motivating the terrorists.

    There’s so much idiocy spewing out in all directions from this klown kar administration it’s hard to figure out where to start unpacking it.

    All I can say is, I’m glad we won’t be sending troops into combat. These people shouldn’t be in charge of ground troops. These people shouldn’t be in charge of a cub scout meeting.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  40. 35. Gus (70b624) — 9/16/2014 @ 8:42 pm

    I agree with Sammy, a mixed fruit conglomeration of various militias, lawyers, farmers and Doctors can be organized, financed, and trained to win a war that they don’t want to fight.

    I didn’t say so.

    I said he’s got to get the Lebanese Army to come to the rescue.

    He’s even taking some steps in that direction:

    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2014/Sep-12/270501-us-arming-lebanon-military-to-combat-isis-hale.ashx

    Except that ISIS is holding maybe two dozen Lebanese soldiers captive and has executed two of them, and these arms are for defense, and Lebanon is very divided.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/09/northern-lebanon-life-under-isis-shadow.html

    The battles, which intensified in early August, prompted ISIS to kidnap 30 Lebanese soldiers and policemen, publicly beheading two of their captives in a televised display eerily similar to the recent deaths of American journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff and British aid worker David Haines.

    ISIS seems to have pulled out of Lebanon for the time being.

    Lebanon doesn’t even have a president, because Hezbollah is too powerful.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_presidential_election,_2014

    Lebanese resistance group Hezbollah is a key player in deciding who gets elected as president.

    But if not Lebanon, who? Turkey won’t do it. Iraq can’t. You could wait, I guess until ISIS invades somewhere else.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  41. meanwhile recovery summer IV porky’s revenge has come and gone Mr. Sammy

    this town needs an enema

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  42. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2755854/The-heart-evil-hostages-hidden-tunnels-Huge-intelligence-gathering-operation-focuses-Syrian-city-Raqqa-bid-Jihadi-John.html

    …Even goats have had their genitals covered…

    Seriously, I don’t think you’ve got to be Patton to beat these people.

    You just can’t be Preezy Prom Queen.

    But how hard is that, not being Prom Queen?

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  43. bankee bankee sailor moon say

    carbon dioxide molecules very very bad!

    threaten humanity!

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  44. 3,000 troops to Liberia post up.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  45. to address the grievances that have caused this in the first place,

    What grievances???

    This is all fantasy and liberal “causes of war” dogma. There must be grievances, and they must be of the type that are resolvable with American ingenuity – water rights or something like that.

    Of course, there’s the Assad tyranny – and there are certainly a lot of grievances against it – but exactly how would that be addressed without a military victory?

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  46. I’m sure the Islamic State doesn’t believe in killing innocents. But they don’t consider anyone innocent who isn’t in full agreement with their interpretation of Islam.

    Apparently the IS has made a treaty with ~all the Syrian opposition forces, figuring they can deal with the other Sunnis once they’ve defeated all the Alawites. Some of the few groups we have helped have joined them.
    Suspect they don’t have a treaty with the MFS and Qaraqosh Protection Committee.

    Peshmerga and YPG (“People’s Party of Kurdistan” a/k/a PKK forces) are making slow headway. KRG shut off power to IS-held areas some time after taking the Mosul dam. Currently the Mosul plains are where the KRG is fighting.
    Hezbollah Brigades helped break the siege of Amerli-and proceeded to burn the Sunnis’ houses. (I heard claims that they were killing Kurdish Sunnis.)
    KRG just got a LARGE shipment of mortars, tanks, and machine guns.

    Mostly off-topic:
    Nidal Malik Hasan (“workplace violence”)
    Ali Muhammad Brown (“robbery”)
    Almost Mufid A. Elfgeeh.

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  47. Steve57 (e9e6e7) — 9/16/2014 @ 9:03 pm

    There’s so much idiocy spewing out in all directions from this klown kar administration it’s hard to figure out where to start unpacking it.

    Start with the first paragraph and proceed in order.

    Except that there might be five different things wrong there.

    I helped administratively separate people from the Navy who could come up with a better plan than President Justin Beiber.

    He doesn’t want any U.S. troops there. He doesn’t want it to be ISIS vs United States. Hls strategy could make some sense in Iraq – with U.S. special forces there to determine who is reliable and who is not – but he’s got no plan for Syria, except basically a 1 to 2-year plan to create a new Syrian rebel army that the USA can trust.

    And in the meantime maintain the status quo, or a slight reduction in ISIS controlled areas, until they’re ready to go on offense.

    Unless they can get some Sunni Arab states (that non-Sunni Syrians can trust) to invade – that means King Abdullah II of Jordan.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  48. 45. to address the grievances that have caused this in the first place,

    What grievances???

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 9/16/2014 @ 9:14 pm

    Well, there are a few minor details to clear up. Nothing too difficult for Chicago Jesus.

    First he’s going to patch up that pesky Sunni-Shiite schism that only goes back to the Battle of Karbala. Which occurred just yesterday. Also known as 680 AD.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/09/obama-goes-on-meet-the-press-reality-fails-to-intrude.php

    … We’re going to have to work smarter.

    We’re going to have to train the military there more capably. We’ve got to do more effective diplomatic work to eliminate the schism between Sunni and Shia that has been fueling so much of the violence in Syria, in Iraq. And so we put together a plan that is compatible with the kind of work that we’re doing now…

    East peasy. Given President Mean Girl’s unbroken record of successful “smart diplomacy,” he and his trusty sidekick Secretary of State Seabiscuit will have that checked off the to-do list by end of next week; beginning of October tops.

    Then the Arab world is still butt hurt over the crusades. You remember the crusades from your history books, Sammy. When out of the blue, with absolutely no provocation those European Xto-fascists irretrievably raped the delicate Muslim collective psyche by raiding into the Muslim world and seized Muslim lands that had been Muslim since time immemorial.

    Time immemorial equals since approx. 640 AD when the Arabs started their endless jihad and subjugated lands that had been Christian since the time of Christ. And had been home to Jews since long before that.

    And “unprovoked” if you ignore the four and a half centuries of bloody, brutal jihad from the time of Muhammad’s death until the time the Roman Catholic Xto-fascists launched their unprovoked, completely inexplicable crusade in 1099 AD.

    Why the h3ll did they do that? I mean, sure the Muslims had conquered Spain and tried to invade France but were turned back by Charles the Hammer at the Battle of Tours in October 732 AD. And the Muslims had raided coastal towns all over the Mediterranean plundering, pillaging, and taking slaves for those entire 450 years (even at one point establishing a slave raiding base in the south of France that lasted for several decades). But that’s just old news, and it’s really petty for anybody to bring that crap up.

    But the crusades, those were really bad. No doubt if President Kardashian grovels and apologizes teh Muslims will be over that by mid-October.

    (I went to the A-bomb museum at Hiroshima and the Japanese language memorial to the dead managed to never mention WWII, leading partially educated Japanese students [they skip WWII in Japanese history class; I’ve met Japanese tourists in Hawaii who, when they discover there was such a thing as WWII, then ask, “Who won?”] to believe that one Summer the Americans dropped a couple of Atomic bombs on Japan for no reason whatsoever. Muslims learn about the crusades the same way. Unfortunately, so do westerners.)

    Maybe he’ll have to give Spain back to ISIS, though. They’re still traumatized by the loss of al Andalus. It was really cruel of the Spaniards to use excessive force to take their country back. After the Muslims had conquered it fair and square and all.

    The really thorny problem will be negotiating the existence of Israel as well as a timetable to liquidate religious minorities in the ME. Also, the different factions are at loggerheads over acceptable methods of mass killing. You know how it is. All the really Islamic methods aren’t quite acceptable. And all the acceptable methods aren’t found in the Quran. I hear John F’n Kerry is proposing to break the logjam by promising to supply ISIS with Zyklon B. Given how popular Mein Kampf is in the ME that might be acceptable.

    Anyhoo, I think that pretty much covers the grievances. Except for agreeing to submit to the authority of the worldwide Caliphate, which I believe will be covered in the second round of talks. But that shouldn’t pose a problem for President Barack Hugo Chavez Obama. He can afford to be more flexible now that he’s won his second election.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  49. Let’s see what parties are there:
    *Syria, Iraq, Iran, Hezbollah (all Shiite)
    *Syrian Armenians, some Syriacs allied with Syrian gov’t
    *Sunni tribal groups in Iraq (currently allied with IS, partly from fear)
    *old Sunni rebels in Syria:
    – al-Nusra/al-Qaeda
    – Free Syrian Army (mostly allied with al-Nusra; consists of hundreds of independent units, many fighting for Sunni rule)
    – independent jihadist units (often temporarily affiliated with FSA or al-Nusra, as convenient)
    *Islamic State (IS/ISI/ISIS/ISIL) (taqfiri Sunni: believe that Muslim world is apostate)
    *PKK: an old communist Kurdish group that has recently moved its operations from Turkey to Syria; seems to have recently moved from Marxist-Leninist to Communalist
    *KRG: semi-autonomous government of Iraqi Kurdistan; the KDP (conservative by Kurdish standards; tribal) has a plurality and Barzani is head of the KDP and president.
    *Assyrians allied with PKK (MFS).
    *Assyrians allied with KRG (Qaraqosh).

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  50. The immediate justification for the crusades was that Christians were supposed to go to Jerusalem, and when they did the Muslims would kill them (stuff like cutting their guts open…)

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  51. Jordan supposedly has let ISIS use its territory as a staging ground, which makes them sound not quite optimal as an ally against ISIS.
    There are quite a few ISIS sympathisers in Jordan.

    I get the impression that there will never be any Syrian army that anyone can trust.

    In Syria, “moderate” means they only want to kill people who proselytise Muslims, not every apostate.

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  52. Yeah, that was when the Seljuk Turks seized the Holy Land from the Fatamids in Egypt. Although the earlier “Mad Caliph” didn’t help matters by razing the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to the ground and persecuting the local Christians and Jews for not being Muslims. He didn’t treat foreign Christians trying to make their pilgrimage any better.

    He’s called the Mad Caliph because at one point he decided that he himself was god, not Allah.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  53. 51. There are quite a few ISIS sympathisers in Jordan.

    It’s more convenient to just refer to them as Palestinians instead of typing it all out.

    I get the impression that there will never be any Syrian army that anyone can trust.

    Ibidem (d88ff4) — 9/16/2014 @ 10:52 pm

    You could say that about any Arab army, anywhere.

    Steve57 (e9e6e7)

  54. 53:

    You could say that about any Arab army, anywhere.

    Genesis 16:12, what else can I say?

    Ibidem (d88ff4)

  55. Steve57 (e9e6e7) — 9/16/2014 @ 10:07 pm

    First he’s going to patch up that pesky Sunni-Shiite schism that only goes back to the Battle of Karbala. Which occurred just yesterday. Also known as 680 AD.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/09/obama-goes-on-meet-the-press-reality-fails-to-intrude.php

    We’ve got to do more effective diplomatic work to eliminate the schism between Sunni and Shia that has been fueling so much of the violence in Syria, in Iraq.

    Schism, I think, maybe could be the wrong word. I think this refers to the interpersonal schism.

    As with Yugoslavia, people interacted all the time. There were intermarriages and conversions between Sunni and Shia. It is somewhat comparable to the way Protestants and Catholics interact.

    This is not talking about unifying Islam.

    But what it is talking about is pretty impossible. Wrongs and the efefcts of wrongs does not just go away.

    Then the Arab world is still butt hurt over the crusades. You remember the crusades from your history books, Sammy.

    I bought two books recently. One that just deals with the period 1189 to 1291 – with a posscript further.

    There were bad people on both sides. Sometimes they made peace. The Christians had much more of tendency to get caught up in religious fervor, the Moslems, as a whole, had worse rulers.

    When out of the blue, with absolutely no provocation

    It was sometimes out of the blue. The Christian rulers knew how crazy they were.

    (I went to the A-bomb museum at Hiroshima and the Japanese language memorial to the dead managed to never mention WWII, leading partially educated Japanese students [they skip WWII in Japanese history class; I’ve met Japanese tourists in Hawaii who, when they discover there was such a thing as WWII, then ask, “Who won?”]

    When that can happen, there’s real ignorance.

    I was reading about the end of the Kingdom Acre, what caused it, and then what happened to the population, and somewhere else, about Spain.

    But anyway, the whole idea of taking care of grievances s ridiculous.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  56. Steve57 (e9e6e7) — 9/16/2014 @ 10:57 pm

    Yeah, that was when the Seljuk Turks seized the Holy Land from the Fatamids in Egypt.

    The Fatimids actually recovered it before the Crusaders got there.

    Some changes lasted a long time -some wound up lasting even less than a year.

    Although the earlier “Mad Caliph” didn’t help matters by razing the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to the ground and persecuting the local Christians and Jews for not being Muslims. He didn’t treat foreign Christians trying to make their pilgrimage any better.

    He’s called the Mad Caliph because at one point he decided that he himself was god, not Allah.

    This was the start of the Druze religion. A lot of their doctrine is secret.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  57. Iran decided the Druze were Shiites. Well, the Fatimids were. Saladin took over from them.

    A lot of things you wouldn’t believe happened.

    At one point Richard I of England offered to have his sister marry Saladin’s brother, and Saladin accepted. This was maybe not a completely serious proposal, or was it?

    This was all done without asking Joanna, Queen of Sicily. She wouldn’t marry a Moslem. He wouldn’t convert.

    Jerusalem was divided between Christians and Moslems 1229-1244.

    and there’s the Almohades in Spain.

    And if things got good for Jews any where, it would get end.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  58. It’s probably not going to get quite like this:

    http://drybonesblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-age-of-isis.html

    Just the opposite actually.

    Not doing anything for fear of siding with the really bad guys, against teh really, really, bad guys..

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  59. But we already won in Iraq. I know because Cheney and Rumsfield told me we did.

    JEA (fb1111)


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