An Effort To Win The War Of Ideas
[guest post by Dana]
Well, someone had a strategy of sorts: In what is being dubbed a social media offensive against ISIS and Al-Qaeda, the U.S. State Dept. has taken unique steps to win the war of ideas through Twitter, Facebook and YouTube.
Officials understand the limits of such a campaign, but they also see “social media as an increasingly crucial battlefield as they aim to turn young minds in the Muslim world against groups like IS and Al-Qaeda.” U.S. officials are targeting the social network accounts of Islamic extremists and engaging in “tit-for-tat” exchanges, as well as mocking and ridiculing the radicals:
A senior US State Department official described the strategy as a kind of cyber guerrilla campaign.
“It is not a panacea, it is not a silver bullet,” the official explained. “People exaggerate, people think this is worthless or they think it a magic thing that will make the extremists surrender. It is neither one of those. It is slow, steady, daily engagement pushing back on a daily basis.
“It is a war of thousands of skirmishes, but no big battles. America likes big battles but it is not — it is like guerrilla warfare,” said the official.”
The U.S. is using any means it can to push back:
The US-managed Twitter accounts are also not squeamish about reproducing images distributed by jihadists depicting mass executions, drawing historic parallels between Islamic State militants and the Nazis.
One post showed armed Islamic State fighters standing over a ditch filled with executed people, alongside another almost identical image of Nazis killing people in similar circumstances.
“Then & Now: Nazis – like ISIS – murdered out of intolerance, hatred, zeal,” read a comment alongside the two images.
Satire is also used to undermine militants, with one re-tweeted cartoon referring to the “ISIS bucket challenge” featuring a participant named as “the civilized world” being drenched by a bucket of blood.
The US officials say the social media offensive is an attempt to “contest space” on social networks which had previously been dominated by Islamist radicals.
“This is an area, a field, where before we came along the adversaries had this space to themselves,” the official explained.
“You had English language extremists that could say any kind of poison and there will be very low push-back against them,” he added. The ultimate aim is to make youths in the West or Muslim nations think twice before embarking on a journey to Syria or Iraq to join Islamic State fighters.
US officials are also mindful of striking the right tone as they troll Islamists.
“Twitter is unfortunately or fortunately a platform which is suitable for what we call snark, sarcasm, for insulting people,” the official said. “This is something also we are trying to do, we try to attack.
“We are respectful about things, the loss of human life of innocent people, victims of AQ or victims of ISIS, that is not something for sarcasm.
“But when you are mocking them, it is effective to draw the comparison between what they say and what they do. The hypocrisy of this group is a weakness.”
Meanwhile, the president took a break from developing a strategy to deal with ISIS and reassured donors at a fundraiser in Newport, Rhode Island about concerns of a threat from ISIS:
“We have to be vigilant,” he told the group of donors, “but this doesn’t immediately threaten the homeland.”
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (4dbf62) — 9/1/2014 @ 4:49 pmTo win the war of ideas you first have to have one! Good luck finding any here.
Mr.gop (1ee65b) — 9/1/2014 @ 4:55 pmI suspect, Dana, that the Brain Trust in the Oval Office thinks that everyone thinks like Low Information Voters across the world, and operate via bumper sticker memes that make them manipulable (as we are in our nation, I fear).
In this particular case, I hope they are right. Anything to blunt that scimitar developing overseas.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 9/1/2014 @ 4:57 pmwell CNN doesn’t make the job any easier:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/cnn-islamist-cleric-i-respect-you-try-get-your-message-out-however-you-can_804085.html
this is the one who inspire Rigby’s killer as well as Foley’s
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:12 pmI think we need a covert operation to assassinate the people who fund them, but I don’t know how well that would go over with the Nobel Peace Prize Committee.
nk (dbc370) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:21 pmTop men.
Mocking father rapers who intend cut your privates off and stick them in your mouth.
I’d not thought of that.
gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:39 pmthey’re using techniques they perfected and honed against Republicans first
happyfeet (8ce051) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:49 pmWell, I suppose most of them know some Arabic.
gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:52 pmProbably, but they are fluent in jibberish at CNN
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 5:56 pmWell, Churchill would be down with this:
“We will fight them on MySpace, we will fight them amongst the ebay auctions. We will fight them on Facebook, and we will never surrender. This will surely be #OurFinestHour. Now if you will excuse me I have a 3:20 tee time.”
Oh, did I say Churchill? Sorry, meant Chamberlain. I get those two confused a lot nowadays.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:11 pm10. LOL, very well done. We genuflect.
gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:14 pmBarack The French Knight:
“I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!”
Valerie Jarrett:
“Sir, shall we fetchez le boche?”
Barack:
“Nah, I got this covered. Let’s run next door and see what Jay & Bey are up to.”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:20 pmTrautman: You did everything to make this private war happen. You’ve done enough damage. This mission is over, Obama. Do you understand me? This mission is over! Look at them out there! Look at them! If you won’t end this now, they will kill you. Is that what you want? It’s over Barack. It’s over!
Rambo: Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don’t turn it off! It wasn’t my war! You asked me, I didn’t ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn’t let us win! And I come back to real life and I see all those maggots at the Starbucks, protesting me, spitting. Calling me keyboard commando and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they’ve been me and been there and know what the hell they’re yelling about!
Trautman: It was a bad time for everyone, Obama. It’s all in the past now.
Obama: For *you*! For me real life is nothing! On Facebook we had a code of honor, you watch my back, I watch yours. Back here there’s nothing!
Trautman: You’re the last of an elite group, don’t end it like this.
Obama: Back there I could create memes, I could generate
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:26 pmlolcats, I was in charge of million dollar equipment, back here I can’t even hold a job looping for the Dalai Lama!
see why you need an edit function?
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:27 pmInspired, Russ, but we have ‘the Dude’ larf and psaki, I’m instantly reassured aren’t you,
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:29 pmSherman cut a bloody swath through Georgia by ridiculing all the rednecks he ran into with withering sarcasm and by shooting and burning everything….but mostly the shootin’ & the Burnin’.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:30 pmYeah narciso. I’m as reassured as someone who hears “Well, we hired Coach Chizik this year. I figure we’ll be in the championship game within 2 years.”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:33 pm#hashtag warfare. Whoda thunk.
Dana (4dbf62) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:40 pmI know the rule about Politico, but one sees the problem:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/al-qaedas-new-front-jihadi-rap-110481.html#ixzz3C4i27v00
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:40 pmOppenheimer was within weeks of weaponizing social networks in the Spring of ’45, but Szilard and Fermi told him about this “plutonium” stuff they found on a shelf in one of the storage sheds, so he said “Eff it, we’ll just bomb the shit out of those Nipponese bastards and make ’em glow instead.”
So the #hashtag technology went into a crate in that “Raiders of the Lost Ark” warehouse and stayed undiscovered until Lois Lerner was looking for a place to stash her Blackberry.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:55 pmnarciso @ 19, maybe the best case scenario here is that Jarrett & Axelrod spread enough gossip & innuendo to start another “East Coast/West Coast” rap battle with our rap & hip-hop community matched up against ISIS and the rest of the misguided muzzies.
Hey, it’s more likely than Obama actually making an effing decision about use of force.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:59 pm#ForeignPolicyByHashtag
JD (fd9fdd) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:03 pm#ThrowShitAtTheWall&SeeWhatSticks
Or, as “Otter” Obama would say, “A futile and useless guesture needs to be made on somebody’s part, and we’re just the guys to do it!”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:06 pmI’m sure ISIS is terrified because…. Well, you know.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:19 pm“What is frightening is that the Islamic State has been able to bridge these two very different worlds because of the ideology it inherited from al Qaeda, which is uses to attract young men motivated by a vague sense of injustice and anger at the west”.
Riiiight.
Gangsta rappers are to jihadists as
Marks are to con-men. Useful cannon fodder.
felipe (40f0f0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:22 pm#WeHaveNoStrategy
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:46 pm#NotOneHeadMore
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:47 pm#DisBeheadingInDaWrongDirekshun
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:49 pm#Caliphacism
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:50 pm#YouDintBombDis
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:51 pm#ISISBigSwordsNeedulDicks
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 7:54 pmA Muslim, a community organizer and a Socialist walk into a bar. The bartender says, “hello, Mr. President”.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:06 pm#YouHaveNothingToFearButHashtagItself
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:09 pmyou da man Colonel
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:11 pm#minnesotaLandOfTenThousandJihadis
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:12 pm“Damn the hashtags, full speed ahead!”
–David Farragut
“Show me a man that tweets, I’ll show you a man that won’t fight!”
–George S. Patton, Jr.
I shall retweet!”
navyvet (ec562e) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:14 pm–Douglas MacArthur
#MayDaFleasOfOneThousandCamels
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:14 pmISIS is using knives and guns.
We’re using pointed comments and sharp wit.
jakee308 (ba1e65) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:15 pmA: what does the average Iranian man do when the missus cuts him off at night?
A: Ghotzbadeh
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:18 pmQ, not A
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:19 pm“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we ridicule them with the almighty #hashtag, and encourage our friends in Wisconsin to open another investigation into Republicans. My OFA interns shall therefore disable all the credit card confirmation software on our website in order to fundraise off blaming the resulting dead widow on Ted Cruz and the House Republicans when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals.”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:26 pmJamal was riding through the desert on his camel. He had been traveling so long that he felt the need to have sex. Obviously there were no women in the desert, so Jamal turned to his camel.
When Jamal tried to position himself to have sex with his camel, the camel ran away. An angry Jamal ran to catch up to the camel and got back on and started to ride again. Soon he was feeling the urge to have sex again so once again he turned to his camel. The camel refused and started running away again. So, Jamal caught up to it again and got on it again.
Finally after riding the camel through the whole desert, Jamal came to a road. There was a broken down car with three buxom beautiful blondes sitting in it. He went up to them and asked the women if they needed any help.
The hottest girl said, “If you fix our car we will do anything you want.” The man luckily knew a thing or two about cars and fixed it in a flash. When he finished are three girls asked, “How could we ever repay you mister.” After thinking for a short while, Jamal replied, “Could you hold my camel?”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:29 pmMaking threats of what your country is going to do to international terrorists and all-around bad actors when you’re a golfing imbecile with no plan for handling foreign affairs is a lot like being Fearless Vampire Killer Peter Vincent and trying to stop Jerry Dandridge from stealing Charley’s girlfriend Amy and turning her into his newest undead baby-momma.
He’ll just crush your crucifix and smirk “You have to have faith for this to work on me!”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:32 pmHeh. You should all be ashamed of yourselves! And, if nothing else bubbles to the WH strategy surface, #WeShallTalkThemToDeath
Dana (4dbf62) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:34 pmTrue, but Imogen Poots was better in that role,
It’s really not that surprising, ISIL has got a solid understanding of maslow’s hierarchies, and promoters like Al Arifi among others punctuate that view
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:39 pmCheney’s Journal. September 1st, 2014: Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout “Save us!”… and I’ll whisper “no.”
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:40 pmWho is this Russ from Winterset who makes me laugh?
BTW, how will State know if this strategy has any lasting impact? What are they measuring it by?
Dana (4dbf62) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:46 pmnarciso, If you’re gonna star in an unnecessary remake of a good old horror movie, you don’t need to be “better” than the original actress. You need to be WAY better.
Ms. Poots was hotter than Al & Peggy Bundy’s sexually ambiguous neighbor lady, but the original “Evil Ed” was classic, and Roddy McDowell was the perfect casting for the Peter Vincent. Hell, Evil Ed was so good that I don’t even care about his subsequent gay porn career turn.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:47 pmDana, my guess? Twitter followers. Or maybe if it’s “trending”.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:48 pm…and focus groups.
Dana (4dbf62) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:53 pmYou know what? I hate being flippant about the diminishment of our country. I’d love to post some wonderful quotes from Great Men in History about the importance of stepping up to the plate when you need to perform…..but eff it. These clown shoes in the White House don’t deserve Great Quotes. They deserve effing movie lines, and not Classics like The Ox-Bow Incident, High Noon or Twelve Angry Men. No, they deserve Caddyshack 2, Slap Shot 2, and Harold & Kumar Get High as F&*% and Decide To Vote for Obama.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:54 pmFrank Lutz seems like an affable sort. I have no personal reason to hate him.
Doesn’t mean he won’t get junk-punched for what he’s done to political coverage if I ever run into him in an airport or in line for a Chik-fil-A sammich.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:56 pmI’m recovering from a fever this weekend, and decided to “Ace-ify” things here in the comments for excrements and giggles.
For my next trick, happyfeet and I will be sockpuppeting Chester A. Arthur and Millard Filmore and “going to the mattresses” over whether or not we should have kicked in Mexico’s front door and taken over that shithole in the post-French Intervention era.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 9:06 pmwell TMI on Deezen is that his name, they shot the original is South Florida, dontcha know,
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/1/2014 @ 9:20 pm#JobsNotChops
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 9:26 pm#WinTheSuture
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 9:29 pmCaliph Apul Madiq and his right hand man, his cousin Usuq Madiq
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/1/2014 @ 9:35 pm#HashtagsForVictory!
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:01 amsilly Dana: they mean well, and that’s the only metric there is in Obamamerica
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:03 amI wish we were using pointed comments and sharp wit. Instead we’re using what the Oberlin student council, class of ’99, imagines are pointed comments and sharp wit.
And in the center of the coliseum stand their opponents. The barbarian horde from the movie Gladiator times eleventy.
Is anybody else not filled with confidence?
Steve57 (e0f6ab) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:04 amare you not entertained?
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:17 am47. Like our red Russ is a Moron, i.e., an Ace regular.
gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/2/2014 @ 6:10 amI know it’s so 19th century, 18th even (they recovered Kiev, from the First Swedish war:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2740436/Russia-updates-military-doctrine-claiming-West-poses-increasing-threat-national-security-Putin-warns-Kiev-two-weeks-wanted-to.html
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/2/2014 @ 6:44 amSo here we are two months to another off-year election. The three open contests, MT, SD and I forget, are flipping leaving two, Pryor and Landrieu as likely flips for a 50-50 stalemate.
So basically, we are getting help with Judicial placement and not much else. We might still have Hairy Azz.
gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/2/2014 @ 7:01 ameven if we did get past 50, some of those can reliably be counted on to jump ship (McLame & Company) any time there is an important vote, so it really makes no difference.
we’re screwed, no matter what.
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 7:11 ami thought *everybody* knew who Russ was… 😎
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 7:17 am21. Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 6:59 pm
Hey, it’s more likely than Obama actually making an effing decision about use of force.
He just bombed al Shabab in Somalia.
Of course, it’s a limited gesture, but things seem to be improving.
Now he’s going to Europe where he will discuss Ukraine and the problem in Syria and Iraq.
Judging by Adam Washington on TV, it seems Obama is worried about the post-victory situation and wants a strategy where U.S. troops, or bombing or anything will not be needed afterwards – also he doesn’t want the U.S. to go it alone, maybe thinking that will cause people not to side with us.
This picture on the cover of The Week must be Obama’s nightmare:
http://theweek.com/home/mtoc/684
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:50 amHe’s looking at the badge, and thinking it over, and not at Bagdadi.
I’m no sure that was actually the intent of the cartoon.
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:51 amthey spun so many lies to disparage the coalition in Iraq, to trash all our efforts, to effectively push enemy propaganda, whether it came from the emirates, from Saddam’s retainers, in France, Germany
and Russia,
http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2014/09/02/nato-to-create-high-readiness-force-to-counter-russian-threat/
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/2/2014 @ 9:02 am64. Concisely put.
gary gulrud (46ca75) — 9/2/2014 @ 9:40 am68. I think the average age of the Belgian military is 45+ with a BMI of 27.
“Two weeks and Kiev” means Brussels in seven. We’re beginning to see what the Multi-culti plan was all along, to enmesh Pooter.
gary gulrud (46ca75) — 9/2/2014 @ 9:48 amTo be precise
On January 31, 1667, the Truce of Andrusovo was concluded, in which the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ceded Smolensk, Severia and Chernigov, and, on paper only for a period of two years, the city of Kiev to the Tsardom of Russia. Finally, the Eternal Peace of 1686 acknowledged the status quo, and put Kiev under the control of Russia for the centuries to come with the territory, slowly losing the autonomy which was finally abolished in 1775 by the Empress Catherine the Great. None of the Polish-Russian treaties concerning Kiev have ever been ratified.[22]
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/2/2014 @ 9:58 amAs Steyn put it a dozen years ago, he was relating that Fisk insisted beheading of Daniel Pearl, would interfere with the message, that is the message they care to send:
http://twitchy.com/2014/09/02/my-god-american-journalist-steven-sotloff-beheaded-by-isis/?utm_source=autotweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/2/2014 @ 10:47 ama snippy Psaki at teh podium now…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 10:51 amBREAKING NEWS!!! “teh geography won’t limit our options”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 10:54 am“Let’s not lose our heads about this.”
– Jen Psaki
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 10:56 amAll that has to be done against Russia is serious sanctions.
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 11:00 am63. gary gulrud (384f70) — 9/2/2014 @ 7:01 am
So here we are two months to another off-year election. The three open contests, MT, SD and I forget, are flipping leaving two, Pryor and Landrieu as likely flips for a 50-50 stalemate.
I saw a table with polls.
Every single tossup is now held by a Democrat. 3 Democratc seats are certain to flip. Only one reoublica seat might: Georgia.
Theer are basically 8 tossups or semi-tossups, and Republicans must win 3 to have 51 seats.
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 11:03 amI’m diverting myself from the current events with “Origins of Major War”, by Dale Copeland. Copeland argues that events like WWI aren’t due to incredible stupidity. He demonstrates that Germany used a number of lies and secret promises in June and July of 1914 (not fulfilled) to get Austria and Russia to behave in ways that would allow Germany to declare war on Russia without fear of causing a domestic backlash by the Social Democrats. The underlying cause, according to Copeland, was Germany’s fear of a rising Russia. Russia was rearming and France was helping her build a railway network that would allow prompt mobilization by 1917. Germany felt this was a dire threat. Germany also expected to conquer France in a matter of six or eight weeks, so this was where the master plan failed, or so I presume. I haven’t gotten that far yet.
The thing that bothers me is that HetWon can’t be as incompetent as he seems. The problem is that I can’t imagine what he intends to accomplish. Consider, for example, the Defense Department. There are thousands of Admirals and Generals who must have some knowledge of what’s happening. We know they’ve agreed to use military forces on American civilians. A few have been flushed down the toilet with trumped up charges by the FBI, but the rest are silent as lambs. With so many senior officers, it is extremely unlikely that they are all self-serving egomaniacs. But we have seen no resignations, no pandemic of unlikely suicides or inexplicable automobile accidents. It’s guiet as can be.
Could it be that HteWon is intentionally creating a situation where something so horrific is going to happen that the American public will support him? But for what? He has no plans that any one else is aware of, or so it seems.
bobathome (5ccbd8) — 9/2/2014 @ 11:05 amHe IS that horrific something!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 11:31 amWarned about ISIS for over a year, Obama never asked for additional information about them. It’s claimed that he read the daily briefings.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:53 pm#IntellectuallyCurious
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 2:54 pmnot to worry!
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-of-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-911/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 9/2/2014 @ 3:01 pmbobathome (5ccbd8) — 9/2/2014 @ 11:05 am
He demonstrates that Germany used a number of lies and secret promises in June and July of 1914 (not fulfilled)
No question about it.
I read Professor Fay’s (1927) book in 1980 or within a year of that. That’s the book that purports to take away German war guilt.
That very book quotes a message sent from Germany to Austria-Hungary saying that delcaring war on serbia would not start a European war. Austria wouldn’t do it if that was the case. Yet German military plans were such so that a war was almost inevitable if that happened. Russia would mobilize – the mobolization would be against both Austra and Germany, and German plans called for , an attack on France if there was a mere mobilization by Russia.
Professor Fay treats the Schlieffen plan as if it were not a secret! What a fallacy, or piece of dishonesty!
For good measure, even the German mobilization plan called for crossing the border of Luxembourg. (the further plan, invading Belgium)
This was all a plot by the German General Staff.
to get Austria and Russia to behave in ways that would allow Germany to declare war on Russia without fear of causing a domestic backlash by the Social Democrats.
The Social Democrats?!
They would have had a problem getting this past the Kaiser! (unless they made it look like it was forced)
The underlying cause, according to Copeland, was Germany’s fear of a rising Russia.
The underlying cause was that those people in Germany running the army had forgotten what their predecessrors used to know in 1870.
The most important fact of the 19th century, said Bismarck, wa sthat England and the United zstates spoke the same language.
And what I think this means is that:
1) Germany could not occupy France because
2) Great Britain would come to its defence to undo it.
and
3) They could not feat England, because it would get help from the United States.
But 40 years later this was forgotten.
The interesting thing is the generals who planned World War I were going out of power, and 1914 was perhaps actually their last chance.
Russia was rearming and France was helping her build a railway network that would allow prompt mobilization by 1917. Germany felt this was a dire threat.
A dire threat to plans of land conquest in Europe, maybe.
Germany also expected to conquer France in a matter of six or eight weeks, so this was where the master plan failed, or so I presume.
Correct. And they had forgotten that, even if successful, that meant war with the United Kingdom, and certain defeat because of the United States.
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 3:57 pmRuss from Winterset (830aac) — 9/1/2014 @ 8:40 pm
yeah, Dana, that is a clever paraphrase of what Rorschach says at the beginning of the Watchmen series of comic books. Maybe some of the commenters here caught the movie awhile back. Great writing (in the comic books by Alan Moore with good art from Gibbons. Like most fans, I was disappointed that the squid was left out (I know the letters S.Q.U.I.D. on the device was shown)and no “Tales of the Black Freighter”. But otherwise, most satisfying.
felipe (40f0f0) — 9/2/2014 @ 5:20 pmSigh. I left off the closing parenthesis.
(comic books)
felipe (40f0f0) — 9/2/2014 @ 5:21 pmSammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/2/2014 @ 3:57 pm
Hey, I like this new Sammy! I apologize for picking on the last one.
felipe (40f0f0) — 9/2/2014 @ 5:25 pm66.i thought *everybody* knew who Russ was…
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 9/2/2014 @ 7:17 am
You’re too kind!
Sammy @ 67
Why are you impressed by Obama bombing someone? Hell, he could bomb someone 7 days a week and double it up on Sundays, and it would still be as useless as tits on a boar unless he’s PROACTIVE rather than REACTIVE!
You know why Ted Williams was a great hitter? Because he saw the ball leave the pitcher’s hand and timed his swing to connect with the ball. Obama is too busy reading his own stats on the JumboTron, and he doesn’t swing until the sound of the ball hitting the catcher’s mitt jars him out of his fugue state. Then he cuts loose with a beautiful swing that damn near turns him around 180 degrees with momentum. But he’s a day late and a dollar short. In Wall Street terms Obama waits to buy until the stock hits the top of the market, and then rides it back down the other side.
When things get to the point where people are asking themselves “Why doesn’t this idiot do something?” the time for action was a couple weeks ago. Back when his professionals in the military brought him the options for actions. Now he’s just killing low to mid-level jihadis. Any high value targets we get will be either pure dumb luck or the result of someone in the chain of command showing initiative and getting something done not BECAUSE of their national leadership, but IN SPITE of it.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:11 pmfelipe @ 85: Paraphrase? Hell, it’s verbatim, other than substituting Dick Cheney in there rather than Rorschach. Cut ‘n paste from IMDB is your friend – I learned that over in the comments section at the AoSHQ years ago.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:16 pmSammy @ 84
Correct. And they had forgotten that, even if successful, that meant war with the United Kingdom, and certain defeat because of the United States.
Not so fast my friend. We waited over 3 years to get involved. If the Germans had taken France early and kept the British from staging from the Continental side of the channel, they would have turned a trench stalemate in France & Belgium into a cross-channel duel of extreme artillery and Zeppelin bombing raids. And there’s no guarantee that America would look at a situation where France had already gone under and Britain wasn’t bleeding casualties at an astounding rate and want to get into the mix ourselves.
If France had already lost and Germany held Europe, the Zimmerman Note (whether it was genuine or a forgery, that’s another fight for another day) might have never become an incitement to get us into the war. And with Britain on their own side of the channel, the unregulated submarine warfare would never have been required, so no Lusitania.
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:23 pmyes, the time for action, was a year ago, when the jayvees went on a recruiting drive, Abu Ghraib and other places, the socalled moderate opposition, killed the head of Sednaya prison around that time,
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/2/2014 @ 8:27 pm(that’s the Islamist prison)
“I will fart in your general direction”. “I will Taunt you a second time”. Obama’s tactics. Courtesy of Monty Python.
Susan Harms (c7dded) — 9/3/2014 @ 4:43 amit’s been mostly splunge:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/curtis-houck/2014/09/03/networks-ignore-report-obama-was-briefed-isis-going-back-least-year
narciso (ee1f88) — 9/3/2014 @ 6:19 ambut but but but…..Bush was briefed on Al Quaeda in August of 2001!
Russ from Winterset (830aac) — 9/3/2014 @ 6:35 amGeorge W. Bush was briefed about an al Qaeda threat to an economic summit that was going to take place in Genoa, Italy.
He asked – Obama never asks questions because he assumes his briefers are competent, and anyway wouldn’t know how to cross-examine them – what about an attack in the United States?
After a while they came back with an assessment that Osama bin Laden indeed still wants to attack the United States, but they are taking measures to prevent that and they don’t know of any specific plots.
And they developed a multi-year plan to pressure and maybe topple the taliban in Afghanistan.
They were working on the finishing touches on September 10, 2001.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UabGPLhbGckC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=hadley+gathered+deputies+finalize+multi+year+plan&source=bl&ots=KERv0OGILZ&sig=pLyDqjDeNwNfTyFTiYU09W0BTR8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4hoHVLHHNsHJggSnsILgCQ&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hadley%20gathered%20deputies%20finalize%20multi%20year%20plan&f=false
Sammy Finkelman (da8ac2) — 9/3/2014 @ 6:43 amNot just that, but it ignores why exactly the Schlieffen Plan called for mobilization “inside” France, and the difference between policy in the Franco-Prussian War and WWI.
Bismarck understood that Prussia was trapped between France and Russia and that either would inevitably come to the aid of the other. As such his entire foreign policy was focused on keeping them isolated, and especially keeping England from allying with either of them.
Kaiser Wilhelm wanted a great empire. When Bismarck pointed out that would mess up the relationship with England Wilhelm dismissed him. (They also disagreed about how to deal with the socialists.)
Germany didn’t “forget” anything, they just had a leader who refused to deal with geopolitical reality. There was a further miscalculation over the status of Belgium, whose borders had been guaranteed by Germany, as well as France and England.
The whole intention of the Schlieffen Plan was to knock France out of the war before taking the time to deal with Russia, as well as to forestall any British involvement.
When England declared war because of the invasion of Belgium, Germany picked up an enemy they hadn’t expected.
When Germany outran their supply line in France, they picked up a two front war they hadn’t expected.
When Wilhelm wimped out after First Dogger Bank, they picked up reliance on submarine warfare, which aggravated further after Jutland.
There were a whole lot of policy and strategic failures involved for Germany.
Sam (e8f1ad) — 9/3/2014 @ 8:00 amAnd that is only the ones on the German side; there are just as many for every other nation involved.