Patterico's Pontifications

8/14/2014

The Killing Of Michael Brown: Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:53 pm



[guest post by Dana]

On Saturday, Michael Brown, age 18, was killed in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. Ferguson is a predominantly black city, and as Brown was also black, the city is being torn apart by rioting, looting and mass protests.

There is an ongoing investigation, but what is agreed upon is that Brown was shot and killed by a Ferguson police officer as he and a friend walked down the street. There are two different accounts of the event:

The friend, Dorian Johnson, 22, told msnbc the officer drove up to them and told them to “get the f–k on the sidewalk” and then braked in front of Brown. Johnson said the officer threatened, “I’m gonna shoot you.” He fired multiple shots, Johnson said, as Brown ran for his life, stopping at one point with his hands up in surrender and yelling, “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!” But the bullets hit Brown, who collapsed onto the ground. Other witnesses corroborate Johnson’s story, saying that Brown had his hands raised as the officer repeatedly fired at him.

And then there is this:

Police paint a less peaceful account of the moments leading up to the shooting. They say a fight broke out after the officer asked the two to move to the side, and say the officer’s gun went off inside the patrol car. They have not said why the officer approached the men in the first place. Police say there isn’t any security camera footage from nearby buildings or police dashcam video of the incident.

Further, the anger over the shooting has spread beyond Ferguson. NAACP President Cornell William Brooks and Rev. Al Sharpton have also become involved in protests.

There is also a demand for the police department to release the name of the police officer involved in the shooting. Due to obvious safety concerns, the Ferguson Police Dept. has opted not to release the officer’s name. (Today, the hacking group Anonymous released a name on Twitter they believed to be the police officer who shot Brown. It was not the officer involved. As a result of the group’s deplorable actions, the family of the man named are now living in fear. The group’s Twitter account was subsequently suspended.)

Attorney General Eric Holder has launched a civil rights investigation into the shooting.

The federal investigation will supplement, rather than supplant, the inquiry by local authorities. At every step, we will work with the local investigators, who should be prepared to complete a thorough, fair investigation in their own right. I will continue to receive regular updates on this matter in the coming days. Aggressively pursuing investigations such as this is critical for preserving trust between law enforcement and the communities they serve.”

As with the Trayvon Martin shooting, President Obama weighed in:

The death of Michael Brown is heartbreaking, and Michelle and I send our deepest condolences to his family and his community at this very difficult time. As Attorney General Holder has indicated, the Department of Justice is investigating the situation along with local officials, and they will continue to direct resources to the case as needed. I know the events of the past few days have prompted strong passions, but as details unfold, I urge everyone in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country, to remember this young man through reflection and understanding. We should comfort each other and talk with one another in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. Along with our prayers, that’s what Michael and his family, and our broader American community, deserve.

Again today, the president addressed the matter. In part:

Of course, it’s important to remember how this started. We lost a young man, Michael Brown, in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances. He was 18 years old. His family will never hold Michael in their arms again. And when something like this happens, the local authorities –- including the police -– have a responsibility to be open and transparent about how they are investigating that death, and how they are protecting the people in their communities.

There is never an excuse for violence against police, or for those who would use this tragedy as a cover for vandalism or looting. There’s also no excuse for police to use excessive force against peaceful protests, or to throw protestors in jail for lawfully exercising their First Amendment rights. And here, in the United States of America, police should not be bullying or arresting journalists who are just trying to do their jobs and report to the American people on what they see on the ground. Put simply, we all need to hold ourselves to a high standard, particularly those of us in positions of authority.

I know that emotions are raw right now in Ferguson and there are certainly passionate differences about what has happened. There are going to be different accounts of how this tragedy occurred. There are going to be differences in terms of what needs to happen going forward. That’s part of our democracy. But let’s remember that we’re all part of one American family. We are united in common values, and that includes belief in equality under the law; a basic respect for public order and the right to peaceful public protest; a reverence for the dignity of every single man, woman and child among us; and the need for accountability when it comes to our government.

Various politicians have also voiced their concerns over the situation. Particularly disturbing was last night’s “deployment of military equipment and vehicles” to combat protesters.

The president expressed in part, what one assumes most Americans can agree upon:

Now is the time for peace and calm on the streets of Ferguson. Now is the time for an open and transparent process to see that justice is done.

We’ll see what happens.

–Dana

127 Responses to “The Killing Of Michael Brown: Open Thread”

  1. What TFG says and then actually does are rarely the same.

    Gazzer (42663b)

  2. this just hasn’t been on my radar at all

    St. Louis already had kind of a reputation way before this as being somewhere you don’t necessarily need to put on your itinerary

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  3. So HF, are you off to Chicago. You did mention something about that last week. Did it pan out?

    Gazzer (42663b)

  4. If they were walking in the street, should he have arrested them for Jay-Walking?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  5. not sure yet but so far so good thanks for asking

    i’m really excited about the prospect

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  6. Put simply, we all need to hold ourselves to a high standard, particularly those of us in positions of authority.

    That’s why if you had any sense of shame and integrity, Barry, you’d resign from the presidency.

    Mark (5758a9)

  7. Have any of you guys seen the video of the Ferguson? Yes, the police are outfitted like soldiers marching on Basra. These are supposed to be cops. Protecting and serving. They look like an army attacking a civilian protest. What’s going on around here? Since when have the local cops become a military division and a group of Americans organized to suppress the population using armor, machine guns and other equipment of war? Either this has to end and our police returned to civilian style “policing” or we all need to fully arm ourselves with as much high tech arms as possible.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  8. I’m glad black people don’t act like this when blacks kill blacks.

    mg (31009b)

  9. as long as everyone focuses their violence and anger on the police and not on innocent businesses and people then I’m ok with this sort of civil unrest and what have you

    it would be healthy if we had a whole lot more of it really

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  10. I would be curious about our host’s perceptions as to whether somewhere in the United States, pretty much everywhere in the United States, every day, there are or are not incidents like this one — including use of deadly force and resulting fatalities — that could be seized upon and used to ignite a political conflagration pretty much whenever the Left feels like one is needed.

    I don’t know whether this was righteous, perverse, or (most likely) somewhere between those two extremes.

    I do know beyond any doubt that people who want to encourage and promote racial conflict in the United States for their own political purposes are blowing it way out of proportion.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  11. “it would be healthy if we had a whole lot more of it really”

    I think after all this time I’m finally catching on to you happyfeet. You’re a little provocateur aren’t you?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  12. “that could be seized upon and used to ignite a political conflagration pretty much whenever the Left feels like one is needed.”

    That’s precisely what they’re doing here Beldar. they’re using this incident to “look a squirrel” us away from the fool golfing and dancing in Martha’s Vineyard while genocide is perpetrated on Christians by ISIS and the rest of the ME is burning. Mission accomplished.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  13. Just before Ferguson, police shot a black guy dead at the Walmart in Ohio.
    He was carrying a crosman pellet gun, the type that Walmart sells in every store across the country.
    Some other customer dropped a dime on this guy, the police show up with real rifles, swoop in on him yelling drop the weapon. The guy says “It’s not real.” They shoot him dead through the heart. Won’t even admit how many times, but we know it was more than once due to eye witness.
    The gun play caused a stampede, killing one woman, Angela Williams suffered a hheart attack while running.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  14. 7. Ah yes, does the low information entitlement class take note:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/police-militarization-ferguson-2014-8

    St. Louis wasn’t high on my list of firebrands, but it’ll do. Burn it down.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  15. Yes, if I were an urbanite I’d be concerned about the militarization of the government about now, especially as mere citizens are assumed hostile.

    But as a hayseed in the boonies I know the DHS will run out of cash before they blow through the lot of you schmucks.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  16. But as a hayseed in the boonies I know the DHS will run out of cash before they blow through the lot of you schmucks.

    Oddly comforting.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  17. They’ll borrow reloads from China.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  18. Beldar, there are incidents like this everyday in the United States. Possibly as many as 10% of Chicago’s homicides this year will be police shootings. There has been more than one where the victim was holding a cell phone and the policeman said he thought it was a gun. Another common is where the “deadly weapon” is a car and the policeman is afraid he will be run over. A blue wall goes up, with the help of the ward politicians to keep the lid on the popular sentiment, and the State’s Attorney’s office which investigates complaints against police officers only if they are referred to it by the police department’s disciplinary unit. It often seems like a travesty. It often seems that the only way see that justice is done is to take it to the streets.

    And, yes, there are hustlers who will exploit the situation too.

    nk (dbc370)

  19. Mr. Hoagie please to explain to me what the extant feedback mechanisms are what help the popo of america understand how they and the manner in which they tend to discharge their duties are perceived by society at large

    i tell you what sticks out to me

    we have a Whole Freaking Lot of broadcast network television propaganda crap what creates entire shows around the idea that these police people slash law enforcement officers are something other than trashy illiterate thugs – that they’re actually heroic dedicated public servants

    and that’s creepy on a very fundamental orwellian type level

    because that is SO not who these people are

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  20. At least they didn’t shoot a dog in its own yard again. There’s that.

    Gazzer (42663b)

  21. The militarization of the police in America is a 100% Republican thing, namely Republican Reagan and Republican Bush 41 and very much Republican Bush 43, so let’s be honest about that at least. Obam did not build that.

    nk (dbc370)

  22. *Obama*. Freudian slip.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. Rand Paul is calling out the increased militarization of police.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/08/14/rand-paul-on-ferguson-we-must-demilitarize-the-police/

    elissa (9a7536)

  24. yes the whole rise of street gangs that terrorize the community have nothing to do with it,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  25. street gangs that terrorize the community

    Isn’t there an amemdment about free association in the constitution? Or at least right next to it?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  26. It often seems that the only way see that justice is done is to take it to the streets.

    The concept behind that is far murkier when some of the most highly publicized police shootings routinely occur in neighborhoods that are in the sections of cities that, to evoke the line from comedienne Chris Rock, if you’re an out-of-towner and find yourself at the intersection of Martin Luther King Blvd and Caesar Chavez Avenue, to get the hell out of there!

    Mark (5758a9)

  27. Nk – please explain how the federal govt militarized local PD.

    JD (39402f)

  28. The militarization of the police in America is also very reflective of the ethos of the police in America I think

    this is who they are

    nobody really made them that way, they just unfortunately encouraged some very sociopathic innate tendencies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  29. nk,

    I don’t know whether O has had much of anything to do with police militarization (I tend to think not, as he’s not had much to actually do with much of anything), but Clinton sure did.

    Gazzer,

    No, but I’ve seen reports that people in their own yards have been hit by police suppression rounds (either wooden or rubber depending on the source). And if true I do have huge problems with that, and would well be reason for the protests to grow rather than settle.

    Soronel Haetir (02427a)

  30. Tons of federal money, JD. For machine guns and tanks, among other things. Anecdotal but illustrative. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/14/10689730-nh-citys-new-military-muscle-raises-some-hackles

    nk (dbc370)

  31. you know any cops that have shot and killed in the line of duty, like those two metrodade cops who were gunneddown doing a parole chec about two years ago

    narciso (ee1f88)

  32. Now Gary McCarthy was that his name,, is a somewhat untrustworthy fellow, then again they have had bo legal frearms in the greater Chicago area, so there is that,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  33. I saw the guy on TV who claimed he was with Michael Brown and offered an eye witness account of the incident. He said the officer reached out through the window of his patrol car and grabbed Brown by the neck and tried to pull him inside the car. There was a struggle and the officer shot Brown once, and as Brown tried to protect himself he cried out that he had no gun, but the officer shot him in cold blood multiple times while Brown had his hands up.

    My initial reaction was disbelief, his story doesn’t ring true. I don’t know how an officer seated behind the wheel of his patrol car can reach out through the window high enough to grab 6’4″ Brown by the neck, nor what utility the act might serve in the first place. Once the race hustlers descend on the scene to begin shaping perceptions and driving the worst possible racist narrative they can concoct can anyone expect an accurate account of the event.

    We’ll have to wait till the officer involved comes forward and provides his version of events before it’s possible to start working toward any firm conclusions, but preliminary indications look like the same hate mongers are already assembled and spewing the same racist garbage for the same self-serving reasons they did in the Trayvon Martin travesty. Keep a sharp eye out for evidence of media collusion.

    ropelight (eab554)

  34. The Treasury again today announced continued record tax revenues. I have been thinking since last Nov. when the Slowdown deal went thru the the Ceiling vaulted we had an overnight $320 Billion discontinuity in the National Debt that shenanigans are afoot. The Federal Reserve is just bumping the Treasury’s cash on hand linearly, with digital lucre.

    Yes, I see conspiracy behind every door, but the revenue peaking does not make sense. 92 million not in the labor force. Home starts at 14 year low. Retail on suicide watch. We’re in recession. I don’t believe these lying PsOS.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  35. nk – You are on the same page with Bill Ayers, Obama and Jeremiah Wright that increased policing and prison populations are all due to corporate greed. Congrats!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  36. If only the gunshot had ricocheted harmlessly off the young man’s halo, all of this turmoil could have been avoided.

    Dave (in MA) (c98058)

  37. I doubt Obama appreciates the irony of him calling for an open and transparent investigation, something we have not seen from his administration.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. The Treasury again today announced continued record tax revenues.

    Maybe it’s from the peculiarly high run up of the stock market over the recent past and the resulting taxes from capital gains? Regardless, there’s something very hinky about that and today’s Wall Street in general. Call it the Obama-ized World of High Finance.

    Mark (5758a9)

  39. Blind hogs and acorns, daleyrocks. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  40. “St. Louis wasn’t high on my list of firebrands, but it’ll do. Burn it down.”

    GG. No one has to worry. The locals will do it during their “shopping spree.”

    Another angelic trayvon gunned down by an evil vigilante.

    Jim (145e10)

  41. it’s good to have tattoos but not too many tattoos

    just enough for so they can identify your body

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  42. 2 Dade Officers Disarmed, Killed Screaming Gunman Grabs Weapons And Shoots Men In The Head
    November 29, 1988|By Maya Bell, Sentinel Miami Bureau
    MIAMI — Two Metro-Dade police officers wearing bulletproof vests were disarmed and killed Monday by a man who shot them in the head, apparently with their own weapons.

    Less than two hours later, police arrested a suspect in the shooting. He was identified as Charles Harry Street, 34, of Boynton Beach, who was released from prison 10 days earlier after serving eight years of a 15-year sentence for attempted first-degree murder.

    Since 1988? You would think the Miami Dade police would get over it eventually.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  43. The militarization of the police in America is a 100% Republican thing, namely Republican Reagan and Republican Bush 41 and very much Republican Bush 43, so let’s be honest about that at least. Obam did not build that.

    Hang on a minute, nk. Do you remember Slick Willie Clinton and his 100,000 new cops on the street promise, which he used federal funds to largely fulfill? The fact is that the average beat cop may skew slightly conservative in terms of being a fan of law and order, but most police unions are just another cog in the public employee machine that is pledged to the Democrat party. Democrats say, “hey, we’ll always try to give you larger pay and a better pension plan, if in turn you do your best to politically neutralize your members.” When was the last time apart from Giuliani that a big urban police union endorsed a center-right politician?

    JVW (638245)

  44. The militarization of the police in America is a 100% Republican thing, namely Republican Reagan and Republican Bush 41
    Try again.

    Newsweek:
    America has been quietly arming its police for battle since the early 1990s.

    Faced with a bloated military and what it perceived as a worsening drug crisis, the 101st Congress in 1990 enacted the National Defense Authorization Act.
    http://www.newsweek.com/how-americas-police-became-army-1033-program-264537

    liontooth (536dde)

  45. Err, Bush 41 was President in 1990 and the war on drugs went hot with Reagan.

    nk (dbc370)

  46. missed the part where the cops manner of dress would have kept the crowd from throwing gasoline bombs at them? When people throw incendiary devices – cops bring armored vehicles.

    EPWJ (acb2d0)

  47. I will grant you that the militarization of the police is not the cause of incidents like this one. The cause is the recruitment of what would have been rejects from police forces in 1970. Undersized, under-brained, under-balled, equal employment opportunities who cannot handle an unruly teenager without shooting him.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. Or an old man reaching for his cane, for that matter.

    nk (dbc370)

  49. here’s a video more people need to watch and take heed to.

    pro tip: if you’re walking down the middle of the street, get yo’ dumb a55 up on the sidewalk where it belongs.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  50. PS: video linked is NSFW, small chilrens, bleeding hearts, etc…

    also, keyboard warning for those of you who are drinking

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  51. Err, Bush 41 was President in 1990 and the war on drugs went hot with Reagan.
    Apparently, you don’t realize that the 101st Congress was democrat in both houses. The bill had bipartisan support and therefore couldn’t be 100% Republican. Reagan’s presidency ended in 1989 completely outside the scope of the legislation. But please, keep throwing out your ‘facts’, they’re amusing.

    liontooth (536dde)

  52. “Undersized, under-brained, under-balled, equal employment opportunities who cannot handle an unruly teenager without shooting him.”–nk

    I have noticed how small many of the newer Chicago police officers are these days. I mean women that are barely over 100 pounds or guys who are smaller than me and I ain’t a big guy. I wonder how much of that goes into what seems to be an increase in police shootings.

    Ipso Fatso (10964d)

  53. “Err, Bush 41 was President in 1990 and the war on drugs went hot with Reagan.”

    Perhaps, but wasn’t it Obama who made a statement about wanting a domestic force equal to the military a while back? Or was it Reagan who shuffled off hundreds of armored vehicles, aircraft and thousands of military machine guns to police forces across the country. Now why on earth would any police force need anything more than perhaps a SWAT team?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  54. Before anyone condemns the residents of Ferguson and St. Louis, it might be helpful to find out just how many of these “protestors” are actually from that area.

    I suspect if you could get a list, you would find that the majority of them came from across the river in East St. Louis and Alton.

    creeper (545a20)

  55. Wait a second – isn’t there the version that somebody – maybe not Michael brown – attempted tp seize a police officer’s gun?

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  56. 50. nk (dbc370) — 8/14/2014 @ 11:13 pm

    The cause is the recruitment of what would have been rejects from police forces in 1970. Undersized, under-brained, under-balled, equal employment opportunities who cannot handle an unruly teenager without shooting him.

    And ferguson, Missouiri may have had partivularly bad policemen. Many were leaving for suburban police departments that paid more. (this was the explanation given for why they had only 3 blacks on the force. Now it is unlikely that there’s any outright discrimination in other police departments in favor of blacks)

    It could be that some of those left were people rejected by other police departments.

    But all this is irrelevant. The demonstrations weren’t asking for an honest investigation, – they were pro-crime.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  57. The militarization of the police in America is a 100% Republican thing, namely Republican Reagan and Republican Bush 41 and very much Republican Bush 43, so let’s be honest about that at least. Obam did not build that.

    About 11% of the law enforcement manpower in this country is employed by federal agencies, so unless you’re talking about customs inspectors you’re not making much sense.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  58. Beldar, there are incidents like this everyday in the United States. Possibly as many as 10% of Chicago’s homicides this year will be police shootings.

    The number of justifiable homicides in this country each year averages about 260, IIRC. In a metropolitan center of ordinary dimensions (e.g. Omaha or Louisville), that amounts to about 1 a year. Not all of them are perpetrated by police officers. Chicago annual homicide count bounces around a set point of about 500. I tend to doubt that more than 20% of the justifiable homicides in this country are to be found in one municipality which comprehends < 1% of the national population.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  59. 10. Beldar (fa637a) — 8/14/2014 @ 6:52 pm

    whether somewhere in the United States, pretty much everywhere in the United States, every day, there are or are not incidents like this one — including use of deadly force and resulting fatalities

    There is a big problem in Albuquerque – butthe victims are often homeless people, who have no constituency.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/albuquerque-police-face-lawsuit-in-homeless-campers-death/2014/06/28/9827ef2c-fefe-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

    The family of a homeless camper fatally shot by Albuquerque police in a shooting that generated national outcry and protests throughout the city filed a wrongful death lawsuit Friday and is seeking to force the department to make dramatic reforms.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/albuquerque-police-report-justice-department.html?_r=0

    At least 37 times in the last four years, police officers here have responded to threats with bullets, killing 23 people and wounding 14 others.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/payments-to-albuquerque-officers-involved-in-shootings-called-bounty-system.html?pagewanted=all

    (The union gives every policeman who shoots someone $500 – and besides that he gets paid leave.)

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  60. Trashing local businesses is just the ticket to ensuring the town’s future and a sober deliberation upon the available evidence.

    Whatever did happen, little doubt Dorian Johnson was lying his tuchus off on MSNBC.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  61. I do know beyond any doubt that people who want to encourage and promote racial conflict in the United States for their own political purposes are blowing it way out of proportion.

    No, Sharpton is not about race or politics. Sharpton is about money. People who want certain criminal laws unenforced ggive him money, or he gets money for not making trouble.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  62. I’m sure Brown is yet another choir boy like Trayvon …

    JeffC (faa0ee)

  63. “if you’re an out-of-towner and find yourself at the intersection of Martin Luther King Blvd and Caesar Chavez Avenue, to get the hell out of there!”

    Use your “Sketchy” app on your cellphone to avoid those situations. It has already been proven effective by the TV news crew in DC.

    Mike K (b5c01a)

  64. Why can we not simply disarm- let alone disband- police departments?

    Michael Ejercito (becea5)

  65. I’ll back off on the 10%. It is too high. I mixed up shootings with homicides. The trouble is that it’s hard to get good statistics because of the blue wall. Chicago does lead the country with the most shootings by police and the most fatalities therefrom, though.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. Frankly, nobody comes out of this looking good, with the possible eception of the dead kid. The ‘community’ may be justified in protesting, but there appears to also be looting and arson, neither ofmwhich are legitimate tactics of nojviolent protest … Or even violent protest against government. The cops are acting like assholes. The media is so excited they are drooling. Sharpton, at this point, has been a fraud Nd a ghoul for so long that he would have to be raising the dead to get my respect.

    But; if police forces akk over the country weren’t routinely getting caught on camera acting like apes on crack, I would be a lot less suspicious of these particilar cops now. The police all over the country need to clean up their act, big time, if they want my support when things go pear shaped.

    C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801)

  67. I think it’s a combination of two factors at work.

    Society is safe to the point where any early death is seen as a tragedy. Everything has to be safety proofed. It applies especially to obs that are inherently risky, like police officers. The logic goes that if we are to have police confront criminals, they must do so at least risk to themselves, ignoring the risk this places to the public. Things that may have once resulted in a uniformed officer knocking at the door now get a no-knock SWAT team raid. Things that are even potentially deadly, like cars or “things that look like guns”, get shots fired. The result is less dead cops and more accidental dead civilians. This explains not only the initial shooting, but the massive heavy-handed response to the riots.

    Second, people are fault averse. Accepting the blame for things going wrong means bad PR, risk of job, and (especially) lawsuits. Rather than admit a mistake was made that led to a death, police naturally close ranks and defend each other. The local government doesn’t move to address the protestors because doing so may be bad PR directly attributable to whoever speaks to the press and may accidentally be an admission of guilt. Better to do nothing than to take the blame.

    Civilis (06f555)

  68. Accoridng to the Chief, Officer was responding to a strong arm robbery nearby

    narciso (ee1f88)

  69. nk (dbc370) — 8/15/2014 @ 6:56 am

    Chicago does lead the country with the most shootings by police and the most fatalities therefrom, though.

    New York City has the best record. The incident Sharpton is complaining about in Staten iisland did not involve a shooting. This was a heavily pverweight 43-year old man with asthma who had a long record of run-ins with the police becauyse he wass selling “loosies” – individual cigarettes – untaxed also – at 75 cents each. Somebody had complained about this thing going on probably because there were also fights or other things going on on the area. So one they come to him, and start to arrets him – and there’s a thief and a bully (one person) with a cellphone or camera standing nearby – who knows if he gave him advice – and he says “This ends now” and resists arrest. One policeman puts aheadlock on him – which is bing called a chokehold – and brings him to the ground and then he says “I can’t breathe” They don’t get help fats enough or good enough help, and he dies.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  70. The fact is that the average beat cop may skew slightly conservative in terms of being a fan of law and order, but most police unions are just another cog in the public employee machine that is pledged to the Democrat party.

    Chicago does lead the country with the most shootings by police and the most fatalities therefrom, though.

    What spooks me is that from both a political and demographic standpoint, I can easily see the US increasingly taking on the characteristics of a country like Mexico, where a large portion of a society’s police force has an infamous reputation for being crooked. American public-sector employees in general and the politics surrounding them already are notorious for plenty of feather bedding and sleazy union power plays, so police departments throughout the US are just one step away from very easily morphing into what goes on in Mexico.

    Throw in the corollary element of a city like Chicago being given the nasty nickname along the lines of “Chicongo,” and we very well may end up with the best of both worlds.

    Mark (5758a9)

  71. Oh bother, seems Big Mike had just robbed the QuickTrip and was reaching into the cruiser when shot.

    Details.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  72. But; if police forces akk over the country weren’t routinely getting caught on camera acting like apes on crack, I would be a lot less suspicious of these particilar cops now. The police all over the country need to clean up their act, big time, if they want my support when things go pear shaped.

    It’s called ‘confirmation bias’, and you suffer from it.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  73. 63. Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/15/2014 @ 6:24 am

    Whatever did happen, little doubt Dorian Johnson was lying his tuchus off on MSNBC.

    Dorian Johnson is the other person who was with Michael Brown in a case of forcible shoplifting at a convenience store ten minutes before. A $48.99 box of Swisher Sweets cigars were stolen. I mean why steal money, when what you really want is nicotine, or perhaps the cigars could be converted into cash. (There is a big epidemic, nationwide, of stealing TIDE detergent.)

    This might have been intended as a shoplifting, but the two men continued when confronted.

    Best guess at this point: A policeman, for some reason, was about to confront them in the street (were teh stolen cigars beinbg carried openly?) when Dorian Johnson pushed him back into his police car. A struggle ensued, possibly a struggle for the gun * in the course of which the gun went off, killing Michael Brown, who was running away.

    Trashing local businesses is just the ticket to ensuring the town’s future

    Not the town’s future, but this was an attempt to make Ferguson safe for shoplifting.

    There is probably a little fencing industry going on there, with the ciars being sold elsewhere, and somebody paid off Al Sharpton.

    * criminals have apparently been fighting with the police there now for a while.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  74. After a generation of pounding on the police by the media, what do they expect? Who in their right mind would sign up for this gig?

    I think journalists and leftists should be required to sign up for a year of police work or military service right after college.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  75. 78. Patricia (5fc097) — 8/15/2014 @ 9:05 am

    After a generation of pounding on the police by the media, what do they expect? Who in their right mind would sign up for this gig?

    Somebody who could get a gun license and couldn’t get a better job ..

    And the only people who would stay on the job were people who couldn’t get a job in another police department, or hadn’t had a chance to yet, or had some too many credits toward a pension or preferred for some reason to work there, maybe because of a shorter commute or personal ties.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  76. And the only people who would stay on the job were people who couldn’t get a job in another police department, or hadn’t had a chance to yet, or had some too many credits toward a pension or preferred for some reason to work there, maybe because of a shorter commute or personal ties.

    Has it ever occurred to you to investigate the hiring requirements of any police department, or psychometric studies of police officers, or the civil service examinations used to screen recruits, or the curriculum of the police academy?

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  77. 72.. . . One policeman puts aheadlock on him – which is bing called a chokehold – and brings him to the ground . . .
    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

    The line between a headlock and a chokehold is measured in a fraction of an inch.
    Even if you don’t intend to cut off air or blood with a headlock your arms or the person’s body, particularly with an obese person, may well being doing so anyway.

    Note: That is just a comment on the mechanics of the action.
    I have no idea whether that police officer was choking that guy.
    I have no idea whether he intended to choke that guy.
    I have no idea the extent to which any such choke contributed to his death.
    All I am commenting on is how little it takes to go from holding the head to compressing the neck, and how that can be done without any intent to do so.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  78. It seems that a lot of the posters here may have jumped to conclusions that are now being shown to be wrong. The stills from the store where Johnson and Brown did the strong arm robbery are pretty convincing, those two are suspects not victims.

    So many people know so much about how to be a cop. Too bad they are so wrong… a lot of those that are the harshest critics couldn’t make it through an academy and some have already washed out.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  79. Somebody who could get a gun license and couldn’t get a better job …

    Wait a minute here. Let’s not pretend that just any schmoe could be a policeman, or do the thousand other things required of law enforcement besides drawing a gun without shooting themselves.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  80. jumped to conclusions?

    the pigs in st louis gunned down an unarmed man

    these facts are not in dispute

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  81. the pigs in st louis gunned down an unarmed man

    So says Brown’s accomplice and the fools who take his word for what happened. We have yet to hear from the cop. these facts are not in dispute

    ropelight (91025d)

  82. St. Louis already had kind of a reputation way before this as being somewhere you don’t necessarily need to put on your itinerary

    Oh, you really should. The City Museum is a wonderful magical place.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  83. Have any of you guys seen the video of the Ferguson? Yes, the police are outfitted like soldiers marching on Basra. These are supposed to be cops. Protecting and serving. They look like an army attacking a civilian protest.

    A “civilian protest” that shoots at them, throws firebombs, drives cars at them, burns stores, and beats people.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  84. Frankly, nobody comes out of this looking good, with the possible eception of the dead kid.

    The dead kid has come out looking very bad indeed. He had no criminal record as an adult, but only because there hadn’t been time for him to be convicted. He was already awaiting trial for one crime, and he and his friend Dorian had just robbed a store. And now we know why Dorian, with the new shirt to cover his gang tats, and with the lawyer who’s about to be disbarred, was eager to tell his story to everyone except the police.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  85. But; if police forces akk over the country weren’t routinely getting caught on camera acting like apes on crack, I would be a lot less suspicious of these particilar cops now.

    Isn’t that profiling? How’s it different from saying that if black people all over teh country weren’t routinely acting like apes we would be a lot less suspicious of Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson, even before the pictures were released?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  86. Dorian Johnson is the other person who was with Michael Brown in a case of forcible shoplifting at a convenience store ten minutes before. A $48.99 box of Swisher Sweets cigars were stolen. I mean why steal money, when what you really want is nicotine, or perhaps the cigars could be converted into cash.

    Into blunts, actually.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  87. the pigs in st louis gunned down an unarmed man

    these facts are not in dispute

    So did George Zimmerman, but he was right to do so. Being unarmed isn’t a get-out-of-being-shot card.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  88. Isn’t that profiling? How’s it different from saying that if black people all over teh country weren’t routinely acting like apes we would be a lot less suspicious of Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson, even before the pictures were released?

    Cops are not the Anointed’s mascots, and can be insulted at your discretion (and their professional judgment routinely second-guessed; only attorneys and their stable of academics can be trusted).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  89. I was wondering why I hadn’t seen any pictures of Michael Brown yet.

    He’s 6 foot 4 and 300 pounds, very large and imposing. Easy to believe that he’d be incredibly dangerous in a confrontation.

    Took them a while to hunt up pictures from when he was eight to ten years old.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  90. And when something like this happens, the local authorities –- including the police -– have a responsibility to be open and transparent about how they are investigating that death, and how they are protecting the people in their communities.

    “But if we are ever accused of anything at all, say IRS targeting or Bengazi politicization, we will simply deny all requests for information by stating that we cannot prejudice an ongoing investigation with speculation, until you rabble are distracted by the next shiny thing.”

    rtrski (e8b8d6)

  91. @94 You know how silly you sound 4 days after the incident? How fast do you think they can get the information gathered and analyzed? What kind of steps did they have to take to get the pics of the robbery (and it was robbery, not a “forcible shoplifting”). Conflating this incident with IRS or Behghazi is really a stretch (years), regardless of how much you want to condemn the authorities.

    If I recall correctly, the only information immediately available and not divulged was the Officers name and that was for his safety. Looking back at events since then, sure seems like a good call to me.

    Happyfeet @ 84, You only made two mistakes in your two sentence comment, 1 They weren’t in St Louis and 2 the facts are in dispute and always have been for anyone that didn’t assume the Officer just decided to kill someone for no apparent reason.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  92. 69. C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801) — 8/15/2014 @ 7:02 am

    Frankly, nobody comes out of this looking good,

    Ron Kuby said on the radio that two people came out looking good.

    First, Governor jay nixon, of whom he knew nothing except his last name, which he didn’t like, and second Captain Ronald S. Johnson of the state Highway Patrol, who is black and was originally from Ferguson who took over crowd control.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  93. Labcatcher (61737c) — 8/15/2014 @ 1:54 pm

    What kind of steps did they have to take to get the pics of the robbery (and it was robbery, not a “forcible shoplifting”).

    Well, legally I guess a forcible shoplifting is called a strong arm robbery.

    The point is, they didn’t try to get anything from the cash register.

    The day after Michael Brown was killed, some people came along and completed the robbery. The took all the cigars – and lots of other things, out of the store.

    If I recall correctly, the only information immediately available and not divulged was the Officers name and that was for his safety. Looking back at events since then, sure seems like a good call to me.

    They allowed a lot of rumors to be spread. Usually the reason things are kept secret is because they are not ready to say anything while they are trying to figure things out.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  94. Ron Kuby said on the radio that neither of two stories he heard made sense.

    He did not rush to judgement – jump on the bandwagon – and neither did Curtis Sliwa jump to any conclusions, except that when someone is all tatted up, that makes it less likely everything is all right with him.

    (I’m only approximately paraphrasing)

    Dorian Johnson not mentioning one word about the robbery pretty much destroyed his credibility.

    The idea that he stopped him because he was a racist or a crazy cop never made sense.

    They both thought the demonstrators might drop away now that it was revealed Michael Brown was in a robbery. Ron Kuby said that if the policeman stopped him for that he had probable cause. He fit the description, with the clothing and everything. It would explain how it got started. Not how he ended up dead.

    But after 3pm the Ferguson police chief revealed that the policeman in question, did not know about the robbery.

    He stopped him for the St Louis equivalent of jaywalking – walking in the middle of the street and blocking traffic.

    Of course, Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson didn’t know, that the policeman didn’t know about the robbery. (or forcible shoplifting as I call it)

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  95. SF:I mean why steal money, when what you really want is nicotine, or perhaps the cigars could be converted into cash.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/15/2014 @ 11:59 am

    Into blunts, actually.

    That is Curtis Sliwa’s theory. (that they wanted to replace the tobacco with marijuana.)

    My feeling is that there is something much bigger behind this, and that therefore maybe they wanted to sell the cigars to a fence – that somebody was offering money for boxes of cigars..

    That would depend maybe on this question Has there been an epidemic of cigar thefts in Ferguson, Missouri, recently?

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  96. Gov. Nixon was nowhere to be seen for a couple days at the beginning…..was he on a golf course with “Present”?

    He is very lucky that his ‘catching up’ turned out well – Capt. Johnson saved his bacon.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  97. the pigs in st louis gunned down an unarmed man

    a healthy, 6’4″ #300 young male is *not* unarmed… he can hurt or kill you with just old fashioned physical force.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  98. He certainly intimidated the hell out of that shop-keeper.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  99. Free Mumia!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. The Ferguson Police Chief said officer Darren Wilson didn’t know Brown and Johnson matched the description of the strong-arm thieves when he ordered them out of the road and onto the sidewalk. According to the Chief, Brown and Johnson were walking in the center of the road obstructing traffic, which was the reason for the initial contact with officer Wilson.

    However, since officer Wilson was in his patrol car and descriptions of the suspects had been broadcast over police radio 10 minutes before Wilson’s initial encounter with Brown and Johnson, it’s likely Wilson did hear the descriptions (or at least had the opportunity to hear the descriptions), realized who he might have just met, and acted to identify them.

    Brown’s accomplice, Dorian Johnson, said Wilson had ordered them out of the street and then begin to drive off, when he abruptly stopped, reversed his direction back to them, and attempted to exit his car. When he couldn’t get the door open he attempted to detain Brown by grabbing him.

    I’m beginning to think Wilson might well have suspected they were wanted.

    ropelight (91025d)

  101. Yes, that scenario would seem to indicate it.
    It will be illuminating when we can actually hear from Brown himself.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  102. 104. ropelight (91025d) — 8/15/2014 @ 3:52 pm

    The Ferguson Police Chief said officer Darren Wilson didn’t know Brown and Johnson matched the description of the strong-arm thieves when he ordered them out of the road and onto the sidewalk.

    That’s it, then.

    But he did know about the robbery – also saw them carrying something that might have been taken.

    It was a shoplifting where the shoplifter, pushed his way out of the store when the employee tried to prevent him from leaving without paying, which I guess changes it from shoplifting to something a little more serious.

    A big questo is who is releasing half erroroneous information?

    He only didn’t have the description.

    According to the Chief, Brown and Johnson were walking in the center of the road obstructing traffic, which was the reason for the initial contact with officer Wilson.

    First degree jaywalking.

    However, since officer Wilson was in his patrol car and descriptions of the suspects had been broadcast over police radio 10 minutes before Wilson’s initial encounter with Brown and Johnson, it’s likely Wilson did hear the descriptions (or at least had the opportunity to hear the descriptions), realized who he might have just met, and acted to identify them.

    Were they too far away from him to see, or he had forgitten the descriptions?

    I’m beginning to think Wilson might well have suspected they were wanted.

    Oh, sure.

    The Ferguson Police Chief said officer Darren Wilson didn’t know Brown and Johnson matched the description of the strong-arm thieves when he ordered them out of the road and onto the sidewalk. According to the Chief, Brown and Johnson were walking in the center of the road obstructing traffic, which was the reason for the initial contact with officer Wilson.

    However, since officer Wilson was in his patrol car and descriptions of the suspects had been broadcast over police radio 10 minutes before Wilson’s initial encounter with Brown and Johnson, it’s likely Wilson did hear the descriptions (or at least had the opportunity to hear the descriptions), realized who he might have just met, and acted to identify them.

    Dorian Johnson is claiming shots were fired multiple times.

    Well, this isthe sort of thing it might be possible to verify.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  103. Al Sharpton, Benjamin Crump and company: Gotta to get these lies out before the authorities start releasinbg information.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  104. But after 3pm the Ferguson police chief revealed that the policeman in question, did not know about the robbery.

    That is not true. He never said Wilson didn’t know about the robbery. What he wasn’t sure of was whether Wilson knew, at the time that he first contacted Brown and Johnson, that they were suspects in the robbery. And now we have the first second-hand account from the Wilson camp, which indeed says that when he first saw them he thought they were just punks blocking traffic, and told them to get off the road, but then he heard the description of the robbers and realised that he’d just seen them.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  105. Maybe like this: When he initally saw them from adistance, he simply ordered them to go to the sidewalk. (maybe not all sidewalks there are paved, or pave donly on one side, and not alwasys the same side, so perhaps people got used to sometimes walking in the middle of the street, especially if there is low traffic.)

    Then he noticed one of them was carrying something and it occured to him they might be the robbers.

    What happened after that – we don’t have the truth.

    It doesn’t help for the police officer not to give his version of events.

    It’s 6 days now.

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  106. Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/15/2014 @ 4:06 pm

    And now we have the first second-hand account from the Wilson camp, which indeed says that when he first saw them he thought they were just punks blocking traffic, and told them to get off the road, but then he heard the description of the robbers and realised that he’d just seen them.

    That would mean that he stopped them the first time right before the description was broadcast. It also would mean that part of Johnson’s story is true (about the police officer suddenly returning to them.)

    Now what’s going on that misleading information is being released, or being told to the police chief??

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  107. Maybe like this: When he initally saw them from adistance, he simply ordered them to go to the sidewalk. (maybe not all sidewalks there are paved, or pave donly on one side, and not alwasys the same side, so perhaps people got used to sometimes walking in the middle of the street, especially if there is low traffic.)

    Why all this reaching for an innocent reason why they’d be walking in the middle of the road, when the obvious reason is that they were punks, who habitually do so, blocking trafic on purpose?

    That would mean that he stopped them the first time right before the description was broadcast.

    Unlikely; it was broadcast 10 minutes earlier. More likely it was repeated, or he remembered it.

    Now what’s going on that misleading information is being released, or being told to the police chief??

    Which information is that?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  108. (or forcible shoplifting as I call it)

    No such crime as ‘forcible shoplifting’ in New York. That’s robbery (enhanced to 2d degree from 3d degree by the co-operation of Brown and Johnson).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  109. askeptic (efcf22) — 8/15/2014 @ 3:55 pm

    I meant Wilson.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  110. My black guy shot at Walmart is looking like the better candidate for police racism, militarism, or triggerhappinism, than this guy.

    This guy was fresh from jacking a store, acting the fool on the street. Blocking traffic in front of the wrong police force.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  111. If wishes were fishes I’d be swinging in riches.

    If that’s not thing, it should be.

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  112. swimming

    Steve57 (5f6c2a)

  113. description of getting principled, open minded, thoughtful not to mention healthy and well balanced. Likewise works relating to the university beach ball group.. It was once this to lose extra fat, that we were advised 相关的主题文章: ?mod=viewthread&tid=254941 ?id=118 ?aid=5 ?aid=118 ?aid=709084 ?ThreadID=4619397 ?aid=3

    burberry handbags 2014 (569c92)

  114. Reply to labcatcher #95 at my #94: My first para was quoting the president, as quoted in the post itself. My blockquotes didn’t take…

    I was pointing out his hypocrisy calling for everyone else to have a duty to ‘trasparency’ during any investigation, while his own administration always uses the fact of an ‘investigation’ (yes, scare quotes deserved) as a shield against transparency.

    So I think we’re in agreement about how silly it is, 4 days after, to be demanding openness.

    rtrski (203156)

  115. Dorion Johnson did mention one word about the robbery – several words. He declared there were “rumors” of a previous robbery floating around, but seemed indignant about the cop backing up; that there hadn’t been any 911 call. (the last bit false but apparently added to make the cops reversal seem perverse, sadistic and unjust).

    SarahW (267b14)

  116. Sammy @ 97 You shouldn’t contradict if you have no idea what you are talking about. Shoplifting is taking something from a store or business and leaving without paying for it and is a misdemeanor. No such thing as a “forcible shoplifting” . Theft from a person or a business by force or fear is robbery, and is a felony. The cash register has nothing to do with anything. What happened the next day is also irrelevant Not a guess.

    Nobody can “allow” a rumor to be spread and nobody but the mongers of the rumor can start or stop the rumor. The stated reason for not releasing the Officers name was for the safety of him and his family. With all the violence attendant with the demonstrations I think that not releasing the name was the prudent move.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  117. Sammy @107 You made the same mistake with your contradiction of Ropelight. Shoplifting and using any force to leave the store or prevent an arrest or detention is robbery.

    The stop of Brown and friend was for being in the middle of theroadway and interfering with traffic, which is not “Jaywalking”. Jaywalking is crossing the roadway between intersections without yielding to traffic. Where on earth did you come up with first degree jaywalking.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  118. Sammy Finkleman in your comment at 97 you mentioned that they should have released the officers name and by not doing so they allowed a lot of rumors to be spread. I would suggest that your comments speculating about this and that would qualify as rumormongering. Those suggestions could be taken seriously by someone who hasn’t been exposed to your lengthy diatribes.

    I usually skip over your comments because I don’t know enough about the subjects you are carrying on about to refute them, but this time you addressed me and I knew you were factually wrong. If you aren’t sure of what you are saying, say it’s just an opinion and do it briefly.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  119. rtrski (203156) @ 118 Got it, and yes we are in agreement.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  120. If wishes were fishes I’d be swinging in riches.

    If that’s not thing, it should be.

    Eric Bogle did something close.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  121. 120. Labcatcher (61737c) — 8/16/2014 @ 1:15 pm

    Shoplifting is taking something from a store or business and leaving without paying for it and is a misdemeanor. No such thing as a “forcible shoplifting” . Theft from a person or a business by force or fear is robbery, and is a felony. The cash register has nothing to do with anything.

    It started out as a shoplifting, but turned into the felony of robbery. It seems like, first, while the sales clerk was in the bathroom, a box of cigars was taken off the shelf. When he came out, it was put back on (by Michael Brown handing the box of cigars back to his companion or accomplice, who then put it back on the shelf.)

    Then, Michael Brown took a second box of cigars and attempted to leave the store, but the clerk got to the door first and blocked him, but he or they pushed him out of the way.

    So, a forcible shoplifting.

    What happened the next day is also irrelevant Not a guess.

    It’s just that maybe there might have been something more than a personal reason for taking the cigars. I don’t know if they wanted it for blunts, or as cigars. It could be for cigars if there was someone supplying stolen cigars to some stores somewhere else. And if for marijuans, I suppose he might have bene in business for himself.

    Nobody can “allow” a rumor to be spread and nobody but the mongers of the rumor can start or stop the rumor.

    You can say “allow” when you’re doing nothing to try to stop it but sit there like a deer in the headlights.

    The stated reason for not releasing the Officers name was for the safety of him and his family. With all the violence attendant with the demonstrations I think that not releasing the name was the prudent move.

    It made it easier to claim a crime was being covered upm, or at least a bad record.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  122. 121. Labcatcher (61737c) — 8/16/2014 @ 1:27 pm

    Sammy @107 You made the same mistake with your contradiction of Ropelight. Shoplifting and using any force to leave the store or prevent an arrest or detention is robbery.

    But, to paraphrase Oprah Winfrey, it wasn’t a robbery-robbery.

    The stop of Brown and friend was for being in the middle of theroadway and interfering with traffic, which is not “Jaywalking”. Jaywalking is crossing the roadway between intersections without yielding to traffic.

    No, I think all of these kinds of things are describing as jaywalking. I think you get the same ticket.

    Where on earth did you come up with first degree jaywalking

    That was a half-joking comment. I know there’s no such legal offense.

    The truth turns out, of course, that actually they were stopped two separate times. The first stopped ended with them being shooed onto the sidewalk. (or did they stay in the middle of the street?)

    Forcible shoplifting is a made up term.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  123. Sammy, you aren’t Oprah Winfrey.

    No you don’t get the same ticket. one is for crossing between intersections and the other is for being a pedestrian in the roadway.

    Sammy, “your joke didn’t work”

    Re: 125 who told you the clerk was in the bathroom? who was that behind the counter when Brown reached across and grabbed the cigars?

    Are you being deliberately obtuse? He used force to leave the store with property he hadn’t paid for. That’s robbery.

    Is that a rule. that you can use “allow” in regard to spreading rumors, by not giving out information?

    The safety of the officer and his family trumps bogus claims.

    Labcatcher (61737c)


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