Ron Paul on Crimea: Why You Can’t Take Hard Libertarians Seriously on Foreign Policy
As Russia annexes Crimea, Ron Paul, writing in USA Today, shows why it is difficult to take him and other hard libertarians seriously when it comes to foreign policy:
Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.
These latter three are proceeding without much notice, while the overwhelming Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine has incensed U.S. and European Union officials, and has led NATO closer to conflict with Russia than since the height of the Cold War.
What’s the big deal? Opponents of the Crimea vote like to point to the illegality of the referendum. But self-determination is a centerpiece of international law. Article I of the United Nations Charter points out clearly that the purpose of the U.N. is to “develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples.”
A paean to “self-determination” is a bit rich, don’t you think, Dr. Paul, in light of these facts from?
Officially, the joining-Russia option on the ballot attracted a healthy 97 percent support from the 83 percent of registered voters in Crimea who made it to the polls. The most repeated tidbit was the voter turnout in Sevastopol, long a pro-Russian bastion, where a reported 123 percent of registered voters are said to have cast ballots.
Admire the Crimean “get out the vote” machine! Even Barack Obama is envious! More:
Ukrainian news reports said that all one needed to vote was a passport, and it didn’t have to be a Ukrainian one. One reporter from Kiev showed his Russian passport and was handed a ballot and allowed to vote. This raised questions in Kiev if perhaps the Russian soldiers and Russian paramilitary occupying the area since late February had been allowed to cast votes.
It also raised eyebrows, because while an estimated 58 percent of the Crimean population is known to be ethnic Russian and very pro-Russia, the remaining 42 percent are not thought to be similarly smitten. Ukrainian opinion polls over the last decade have consistently shown Crimea to be more pro-Russian and in favor of secession than any other region of Ukraine, but previous polls had shown consistently that those favoring splitting from Ukraine and joining Russia numbered about 40 percent.
Hmmm. Polls run 40 percent in favor, then the military moves in, and then polls run 97 percent in favor. Paul’s only response to this is:
Critics point to the Russian “occupation” of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a “triumph of democracy”?
Accusing others of hypocrisy is all well and good, but it is not an argument. Does occupation taint a vote or not, Dr. Paul? Does it depend on whether the occupation is by the U.S. (bad) or Russia (A-OK)?
Paul may be right that we have no business doing anything about this, and I am willing to listen to the Paulite arguments that the U.S. Constitution “does not allow the U.S. government to overthrow governments overseas or send a billion dollars to bail out Ukraine and its international creditors.” But if that’s the argument, stick to that argument. Say “what Russia is doing is wrong, but the U.S. can’t correct every wrong in the world.” Don’t tell us how Russia’s annexation of Crimea is the inevitable result of “self-determination.” That’s just foolish.
Love your economic positions though!
Maybe one just can’t take Ron Paul seriously.
SarahW (267b14) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:55 amAlthough I’ve never known a big-L Libertarian who wasn’t wound too tight.
SarahW (267b14) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:56 amPatterico: Say “what Russia is doing is wrong, but the U.S. can’t correct every wrong in the world.” Don’t tell us how Russia’s annexation of Crimea is the inevitable result of “self-determination.” That’s just foolish.
That’s not foolish. That’s a lie. And he knows it. All he wants to do is make people feel good about adhering to his legal positions.
And there was a whole lot of difference between the U.,S. occupation of Iraq and the Russian occupation of Crimea, including the fact that Russia denied it occupied Crimea.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:56 amPuhleese! Ron Paul and his “Libertarians” don’t recognize national borders to begin with — “labor and capital should move freely around the world”. They’re really anarcho-capitalists. He’s been applying that theory to our borders for his entire career. Everything he says on the subject that sounds different is soft-sell, obfuscation or lie.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:09 amThey’re idiots. Sure, that economic theory worked when labor from the South migrated to the North and manufacturing from the North migrated to the South. Of the United States. Not so good when manufacturing migrated to Asia, and labor migrated to welfare and food stamps.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:13 amAnd as a political theory, it’s borderline treason.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:15 amSay “what Russia is doing is wrong, but the U.S. can’t correct every wrong in the world.” Don’t tell us how Russia’s annexation of Crimea is the inevitable result of “self-determination.” That’s just foolish.
Exactly. I personally feel that a selectively isolationist policy makes the most sense in today’s era, but one that always keeps in mind what happened to the world prior to World War II, or the years when “America was asleep.”
A percentage of Americans, particularly of the left, bemoaned the US going into Iraq, and if that response was an appropriate one in that instance, then it’s 10 times more applicable to Russia and Ukraine.
Mark (40dc7c) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:27 amAnd, another one bites the dust.
ropelight (8b6241) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:28 amAhhh, had he only been around to persuade our northern brethren of this 153 years ago!
The Confederate Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:31 amWhile I’ve worked with Russians my experience extrapolated should be constrained by the admission that these were all expatriots. Even the mail order wives were looking outside Russia and her government for solutions to their life issues.
Crimeans who opt for a return to Soviet security are not such. To give up whatever savings they might have, their likely sources of electricity and drinking water, all in their firm reliance on Mother Russia is a bit delusional and bovine.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:34 amThe obvious question would be: if you believed that the majority in the Crimea really did want to reunify with Mother Russia, would you support their right to do so? Or, if the majority in Chechnya wished to secede from Russia, ought they to have that right?
A point which should never be forgotten when thinking about these types of issues: with the exception of a place like Iceland, every border of every country in the world was set by military conquest, where the ethnic groups ruling now moved in and conquered the people living there previously. The current borders of Ukraine were set by, of all things, the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact; part of the current Ukraine was pre-war Poland.
The diplomat Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:38 amAs far as I can tell, the Crimean referendum was a fraud. It was authorized by a parliament which had (a) just been occuppied by the military of a foreign power and (b) just fired its legislative leadership and replaced it with a leader from a party that had only gotten 4% of the vote in the preceding election. It was conducted in two weeks, without reasonable time for debate, under conditions in which the foreign power had taken control of all television and radio broadcasting and was only allowing one viewpoint to be broadcast. The results were reported in breathtakingly quick time, with unbelievable turnout numbers (especially given the stated intention of some significant populations to boycott the election), and with a reported result showing support more than double the support shown in the most recent non-partisan poll on the subject under discussion.
And yet is not a situation which the U.S. has the power to do much about. (I think we have the *authority*, under the Budapest Memorandum). It is *not* in the US national interest to go to war with Russia over this. We can and should call the referendum out for the lie that it is; we can and should remember that the current Russian government is fundamentally untrustworthy. We can and should exert economic pressure. But the tools in our arsenal are limited, and it’s not really within our power to undo it.
aphrael (083be6) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:40 amSevastopol, the primary Crimean city turned out 123%.
Unexpectedly.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:41 amThe Cold War started has, I fear.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:43 amMr Gulrud wrote:
There are not a few Russians, and others, who long for the return of the old Soviet Union. Democracy, such as it is in Russia and some of the other old Soviet republics, has not proved to be the economic and lifestyle blessing that many expected it to be, nor has it been really democratic, as we would define democratic, in many places, with the rulers as firmly entrenched and autocratic as the old Soviet rulers.
The historian Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:44 amUnexpected perhaps, but not unprecedented.
ropelight (8b6241) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:45 amMr Gulrud wrote:
So? Happens in Philadelphia all the time!
The Dana in Pennsylvania (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:47 amaphrael described the vote:
This comes from a culture which was long used to elections with only one candidate on the ballot, where turnout was mandatory, and good men like Leonid Brezhnev routinely got 99% of the vote.
The unsurprised Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:50 amThank you.
J.P. (bd0246) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:55 amYeah, if you read that someone said “I’ll spoil my ballot”, it’s their way of “staying home” as a protest. Voting is mandatory and whether your voter’s book is properly stamped will determine whether your driver’s license is renewed or whether you’ll get your University transcripts. And it’s not just Soviet Russia — it’s Greece right now for one example.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:58 amOf course, while our attention is riveted on the Ukraine and the missing airliner, things we can’t do anything about, we’re ignoring a situation in which we might be able to do something positive, at least if we had an actually effective President in the White House.
The foreign policy Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:58 amComment by The unsurprised Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:50 am
This comes from a culture which was long used to elections with only one candidate on the ballot, where turnout was mandatory, and good men like Leonid Brezhnev routinely got 99% of the vote.
Yes, but Putin had been reporting more reasonable 70% and 80% results during his career, with opposition candidates (neo-Nazi types, Communists, clowns) that everybody would reject.
It looks like here Putin wasn’t taking any chances.
There was not even a way to vote to stay in Ukraine.
The choices were:
1) Declare Crimea independent.
2) Join Russia.
Now Russia claims that joining Russia got 97% of the vote and staying independent 3%.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:10 amComment by The diplomat Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:38 am
part of the current Ukraine was pre-war Poland.
And part of that was pre-World War I Austria-Hungary – the Hungary part. My mother’s
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:16 amparents came from that area before they moved to Vienna sometime (soon?) after they got married in 1911.
Rico’s implication that Libertarians are foreign policy challenged is food for thought as we enter an era, however brief, of social and economic upheaval.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:20 amAnd what about the Central African Republic, where Obama is pushing for inaction?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/world/africa/un-debates-the-breadth-of-a-mission-in-the-central-african-republic.html
Now we are not taling about U.S. soldiers.
And now Obama has them haggling over whetehr it should be 10,500 or 10,000 soldiers? And it is not like we pay the assessments, anyway. I guess they just don’t want to go to Congress and ask for money.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:23 amUpdates:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/united-nations-central-african-republic.html
The United States announces support for 12,000 soldiers and police. (This includes 6,000 African troops already there and 2,000 French)
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/africa/more-money-needed-to-avert-disaster-in-central-african-republic-un-warns.html
I don’t know what’s happened since March 7. Since then we’ve had the Crimea and the jetliner.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/16/central-african-republic-has-become-nightmare-muslims
What happened was, first, some Moslem group took over the (majority-Christian) country, and did whatever they did. They lost power in December, and now Christian miliatas are killing Moslems.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/christian-muslim-marriages-are-latest-casualty-of-sectarian-strife-in-central-african-republic/2014/03/16/af5e3a84-a14d-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html
In other African news:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/world/africa/scores-killed-in-raids-on-central-nigeria-villages.html
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:34 am14. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:43 am
The Cold War started has, I fear.
I hope!
You wouldn’t want it to be a hot war, and you wouldn’t want putin to be treated as a semi-ally.
It won’t last as long as the previous one.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:37 amGreetings:
I never thought of Ron Paul as a strawman but I guess it’s any port in a storm time.
The situation in Ukraine was a first-class cock-up from the start. Trying to cut out the most recent part for really really serious “atrocity” designation is almost juvenile as an intellectual exercise.
It seems to me that the European Union, in the person of Ms. Ashton, its designated Deputy Dawg, was all too glad to lead the Ukrainian-Ukrainians down the garden path to truth, justice, and all the Euro-Luv they could swallow with our illustrious President following from behind as a kind of caboose on the EU’s Tran Grand Vitesse to political and economic misery. Now, all are trying to convince themselves and the rest of the world that they can snatch victory from the mouth of defeat from the bottom of the hole they dug so industriously for all involved.
Back in 1996, Samuel P. Huntington, in his “The Clash of Civilizations…” identified Ukraine as a “divided” country that he thought in danger of devolving an assessment that apparently was beyond the ken of the brill-yentos of the EU as they went on their muck about muck without anything that could be confused with a contingency plan. Why a “Union” with all the financial and political problems of the current EU needed to dive head first into a relationship with a nearly bankrupt, corruptocratic, somewhat democratic country escapes me. All I could come up with was some serious future tax-farming. But luckily, the EU had Ms. Ashton in its van and, boy, does she give a whole new level of meaning to “pell-mell”.
I have yet to come across any explanation of the constitutionality or legality of what transpired in the Maidan Square Spring. If the goings on there were both constitutional and legal, that must be some system those Ukrainians have over there because it sure looked to me like OCCUPY Wall Street on EUkrainian steriods. A somewhat democratically elected government was driven from office by a fair amount of street thuggery without a word of criticism from the solons of either the EU or the USofA. Happy days are there again. And by there, I mean Mother Russia’s front doorstep.
So, when President Putin (who also makes a wonderful strawman on occasion) declared the Euro-Maidan Square Spring an “unconstitutional coup”, I thought to myself, “You know he may have a point”. Obviously, Madam Ashton was, by then, sliding backward into the crowd as President Obama stepped to the fore to quickly counter that assertion and as a ersatz “constitutional lawyer” explain to the world the ins and outs of why all was true and upright and “Forward.”. And so, the way non-libertarians trash about looking for ever more ways of shooting themselves in the foot instead of saying something along the lines of “You know Vlad, my flexibility is telling me that you may have a point there.”
Shooting wars have started in situations like this. The adults that the West has in supervisory positions are not quite that and need much more of the latter. I heard a British historian by the name of Ben Judah describe the EUkrainian Great Adventure as “The banks versus the tanks” which brought to mind a much former Euro-Unionist by the name of Napoleon who might well have said, “There you stand with your sanctions while here I stand with my bayonets.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:40 amCentral African REpublic recent background (I say recent, because I don’t see anything there about the Central African Empire, under Emperor Bokassa, who thought he was a current-day Napoleon.)
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21596523-situation-still-out-control-christian-militiamen-pictured-hunt
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:41 amThe Wall Street Journal:
Adolf Hitler, Berlin, 1938:
The historian Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:42 amI guess this is what happens once Islamists (and their enemies) get into the mix.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:43 amI think this is maybe like Turkey’s occupation of northern Cyprus, which went in stages.
The next stage will start on March 21.
Because that’s when the 5-day agreement between the Foreign Ministers of Russia and Ukraine not to use force against each other comes to an end
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:45 amThe next stage will start on March 21.
Because that’s when the 5-day agreement between the Foreign Ministers of Russia and Ukraine not to use force against each other comes to an end
Because this is all about following rules and honoring agreements.
JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:46 amI mean what’s going in Ukraine is.
Tragedy and chaos following Islamicts and their supporters is the Central African Republic. And where did these murderous Chrisian militias come from. I wonder if the same people or countries are supporting both sides.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:47 amLove your economic positions though!
The problem with Ron Paul always was that his crazier notions (military, foreign policy) are the exclusive domain of the Presidency and most could be ordered on Jan 20th. His saner ideas (budget cutting, small government, free markets, etc) would have to be hammered through a Congress filled with statists, and some would never pass.
In short, the awful he accomplishes immediately, the good maybe never. Not a great bumper sticker.
Rand Paul needs to differentiate himself from Dad if he wants the nomination.
Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:51 am<SF:
33. Comment by JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:46 am
Putin doesn’t follow agreements, at least old ones, at least secretly, but he wants Ukraine to.
Why 5 days? This is not like a 10-year non-aggression pact. Why 5 days? Because he wants to complete his annexation of Crimea in peace, and that’s just about the length of time he needs to do it – that he needs for it to become the status quo ante in the next go-round..
And then he’ll start Phase II.
I’m sure his whole idea is to catch people off-guard – again.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:53 amRussian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday moved to annex the breakaway Ukrainian region of Crimea but sought to reassure Ukrainians by saying Moscow has no further designs on its southern neighbor’s territories
Of course, if the Russians living in Ukraine are poorly treated or clamor for reunion with their Russian brothers, he might, however reluctantly, find his hand forced.
Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:54 amComment by 11B40 (6abb5c) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:40 am
I have yet to come across any explanation of the constitutionality or legality of what transpired in the Maidan Square Spring.
That wasnt so legal, but it wasn’t illegal either except they tried to make it grave crimes, and secretly shooting protesters and kidnapping and sometimes killing would-be protesters wasn’t legal either.
The legal basis for the government change I believe is because they declared the Presidency vacant since the President had left Kiev.
So, when President Putin (who also makes a wonderful strawman on occasion) declared the Euro-Maidan Square Spring an “unconstitutional coup”, I thought to myself, “You know he may have a point”.
But you know, there’s the statement in the Declaration of Independence:
This coup, if it was a coup, seems to have had very strong popular support.
And what Yanukovych was doing, you know, killing people secretly, under Russian prodding, wasn’t exactly legal – or non-criminal -either.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:09 amRemember in 2013 how the national debt just idled for 6 months? The Treasury just hummed along meeting payroll with out every going to the revenue cupboard and finding it bare.
I think we just located the missing Lew I.O.U.s.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/03/Belgium%20TSY%20holdings.jpg
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:23 am11B40 – If Jimmy Carter certified the Crimean referendum as fair, I’m going to have to go with it, just like the elections he certified in Venezuela and the Middle East.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:25 amRule of Law Bitchez!
This weeks Icarus:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-18/28-year-old-former-jpmorgan-banker-jumps-his-death-latest-series-recent-suicides
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:27 amDo the words Abkhazia or South Ossetia ring a bell with anyone?
Breaking Away was a great movie about bicycle racing.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:32 am11B40 wrote:
Constitutionality? Legality? This isn’t about either; it’s about power, and that’s all it was ever about.
Vladimir Putin does what he wants where he has the power to do it, and “international law” be damned; we scream about international law, because we don’t have the power to do anything else about it.
The coldly realistic Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:54 amthis mostly reads like an exercise in obscene flattery
Mr. Ron Paul has woven here an elaborate and garish pretense that our weak-ass international bitchstate is in some measure relevant to this situation
it’s kind of sweet, in a retro sort of way
happyfeet (8ce051) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:02 amThis is why I think Libertarianism still has a lot of “growing up” to do. Staying out of other countries’ business is a good basic principle- but it’s rarely that easy.
For example, if we’ve signed a treaty back in 1994 that stated that the Ukraine should give up some major military hardware and in return, we’d protect her borders from Russian invasion… we should freaking honor that treaty. Especially if Ukraine honored their side of the bargain.
If keeping our word means getting involved in “other people’s” business… I’m inclined to get involved.
Book (ab4041) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:04 amThere must be a word, I’m having trouble recalling it just now, for the perfectly constitutional practice of trying to influence events around the world, by helping allies and thwarting adversaries…..darn, when formalized it even gets the Senate involved.
Drawing a blank. What is that word?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:05 amMr. Feets – Nor Laup is just waiting to get ass raped by President Fierce Urgency of Inaction which he predicted would be coming in some in some of the newsletters he published in the 1980s and 1990s.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:11 amMore Pat Buchannan—less neocon bullshit.
And yes, the 95% figure is bogus. But it’s some high enough figure, and it doesn’t matter. Putin’s clearly going to grab some defensible territory for his naval bases as well as bring ethnic Russians BACK into Russia, rather than leave them as part of the Ukraine, in the western orbit, and subject to another round of violence like they and the majority ethnic Ukrainians just went through.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:25 amwhenever you see Mr. Ron Paul in the media it’s cause someone – republican or democrat – is exploiting an opportunity to embarrass or otherwise inflict harm upon Mr. Ron Paul’s son Rand
happyfeet (8ce051) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:27 amMr. Feets – I disagree. If Rand Paul did not exist, people would still ask Nor Laup question just to get bat crap crazy answers.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:30 amMore Pat Buchannan—less neocon B.S.
And yes, the 95% figure is bogus. But it’s some high enough figure, and it doesn’t matter. Putin’s clearly going to grab some defensible territory for his naval bases as well as bring ethnic Russians BACK into Russia, rather than leave them as part of the Ukraine, in the western orbit, and subject to another round of violence like they and the majority ethnic Ukrainians just went through.
^ That.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:30 amLaup Nor is a blithering idiot, and has been for decades.
reading his words, let alone listening to them being spoken, causes brain damage.
redc1c4 (abd49e) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:32 amnot necessarily Mr. daley
not when they’re already getting primo bat crap from the failmerican president himself
happyfeet (8ce051) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:32 amthis is a poll from last year;
http://iri.org/sites/default/files/2013%20October%207%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20May%2016-30,%202013.pdf
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:32 amGreetings, The coldly realistic Dana:
Re: #42 (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:54 am
Agreed. But its also about the stupidity of the EU and subsequently the USofA to go into a predicament that they obviously had little understanding of and no real plans of any value. And until they wake up and go back to the beginning of their stupidity to understand where they went wrong, my fear is that they will continue to dig a deeper hole.
If you want to understand a trainwreck, start in the barn.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:34 amMr. Feets – Double the guano double the fun!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:42 amIt is not hard, at all, to imagine that 40% figure bumping sharply up when people have to make a choice between the Ukraine and Russia, the western Ukraine is largely hostile to their interests while Russia is sympathetic, and the country just underwent a violent mini civil war.
That’s sh*t or get of the pot time, and just seeing themselves as “Ukrainians” or “Crimeans” ain’t going to cut it, for most of them.
What’s very, very obvious from looking at the polling data narcisco posted is that, even pre-crisis, the vast majority of Crimeans did not consider themselves Ukrainians first and foremost. Only 15% did!
And even that doesn’t mean they consider themselves loyal to the new, unelected Ukrainian government, rather than the deposed government they had disproportionately supported.
Obviously, a large majority of Crimeans would prefer to stay with Russia under these circumstances.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:44 amCrimea, is just the oerderve;
http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-will-use-crimea-vote-to-expand-naval-presence-in-black-sea-and-mediterranean/
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:44 amI love the fact that the Left has fallen in love with Pat Buchanan.
Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:45 am57. LOL, paleo strawman.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:48 am44. The center cannot hold.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:52 amFor example, if we’ve signed a treaty back in 1994 that stated that the Ukraine should give up some major military hardware and in return, we’d protect her borders from Russian invasion… we should freaking honor that treaty. Especially if Ukraine honored their side of the bargain.
No doubt. But apparently, living up to your word sometimes requires some hard choices. Unless they had no intention if honoring their word in the first place.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:54 amBook: I’ve read the text of that memorandum, and we did *not* promise to go to war in the event that Ukraine’s territorial borders were broached; we promised to respect their territorial integrity, and to take it up with the U.N. if someone else violated it. We have done that.
I am not willing to give up my life to defend the integrity of Ukraine, and I don’t think most Americans are.
aphrael (517536) — 3/18/2014 @ 11:58 amQuite.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:00 pm“I love the fact that the Left has fallen in love with Pat Buchanan.”
Kevin M. – Lack of principles will do that to people.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:04 pmAphrael – nobody is asking anyone to go to war. But when Ukraine disarmed, you and I both know that they expected more out of this than a tsk tsk and a sternly worded letter to the UN.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:04 pm“Book: I’ve read the text of that memorandum, and we did *not* promise to go to war in the event that Ukraine’s territorial borders were broached”
aphrael – I agree.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:06 pm“Was it not predictable that Russia, a great power that had just seen its neighbor yanked out of Russia’s orbit by a U.S.-backed coup in Kiev, would move to protect a strategic position on the Black Sea she has held for two centuries?”
FC – I was unaware the U.S. engineered the coup or that the Russian naval bases were threatened. Please explain.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:09 pmJD – I read Book’s post as a call for military intervention.
aphrael (517536) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:11 pmSpecial pleading, is America’s position, in a nutshell. Putin says, “Au contraire.” The people in the region Putin is annexing are with Putin. If anything, I’d say Putin has the moral high ground here.
It’s not just a matter of practically avoiding a needless and, under these circumstances, absurd war, it’s that America’s not even right.
Why on God’s green Earth must the ethnically-Russian people of the Crimea accept the new, installed-by-force government of the Ukraine to rule over them as opposed to who they helped put in office through an election?
Why shouldn’t they simply return to being part of Russia, if that’s what they want? (It isn’t like their ancestors were asked if they want to be part of the Ukraine.)
By the way, unless you start asking yourself similar questions—and resolutely answering them—which boil down to ethnic nationalism, you are going to face severe problems with the territorial integrity of the USA.
And you know this is true.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:17 pmAphrael – I was looking at it in a more meta way. If that agreement, and our lack of action of any substance, shows what we are willing to do via agreements in disarmament, why in the world would anyone come to the table with us?
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:21 pm“The people in the region Putin is annexing are with Putin.”
FC – Hey, the Afghan people were with Russia in 1979 too, right?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:24 pmI ignored your last comment because at least half of it was stupid, but your comments are getting stupider.
The ethnic makeup of the Crimea does not equal Afghanistan.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:25 pm“It isn’t like their ancestors were asked if they want to be part of the Ukraine.”
FC – You mean 20 years ago?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:29 pm“It isn’t like their ancestors were asked if they want to be part of the Ukraine.”
FC – Beautiful. Was Russia a democracy?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:32 pmThe Russian annexed much of Western Ukraine, in the treaty of Jassy in 1792, including what would become Odessa.
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:32 pm“I ignored your last comment because at least half of it was stupid, but your comments are getting stupider.”
FC – The feeling is mutual, troll.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:33 pm“The Russian annexed much of Western Ukraine, in the treaty of Jassy in 1792, including what would become Odessa.”
narciso – Did they let the people vote on the annexation the way FC thinks they should have? If not, why not?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:35 pmMr rocks wrote:
Let’s be honest here: if the Ukraine was already a NATO member, and Russia invaded, thus triggering the obligation to defend Ukraine militarily, we still wouldn’t do it!
Russia still has a huge military, and Russia still has intercontinental range missiles with nuclear warheads. The Russians could invade Germany these days, and we would impose serious sanctions and scream about international law, and that’s it.
The coldly realistic Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:35 pmNo, it was a military conquest, as was the Treaty of Bucharest, of 1812, that gave them the rest of the Ukraine,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:36 pmThis is a fault line. The best thing for everyone is what Putin achieved. Attaching Crimea to the Ukraine was an error that led to bloodshed.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:38 pmaphrael nailed it:
And there you have it: how many Americans do you think would be willing to go to war for Ukraine or Germany or even the United Kingdom these days, when such could very well bring down nuclear fire on American cities?
The Dana who lives in too small a town to be targeted (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:40 pmI didn’t say they should vote on it. I, along with the American founders, am no big fan of democracy [while at the same time I recognize that other people see it as important].
However, nations are largely defined by ethnicity and failing to recognize this leads to strife.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:41 pmI had almost forgot how pompous Cristoph can be. Thank Allah the Ukrainians outlawed circumcision.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:44 pmposted at Insty by yours’ truly:
With Crimea being a fait accompli for Putin, he will now need a reliable land bridge along the north-coast of the Sea of Azov giving him access to the peninsula.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:44 pmThis sets up a situation like with the Danzig Corridor, but with the twist that the corridor will be in the hands of the stronger power.
Kiev can kiss this territory good-bye, and hope that Lord Putin does not further change the deal.
Comment by The Dana who lives in too small a town to be targeted (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:40 pm
We, or far too many of us, are all Pajama Boys now.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:46 pmOf course, if we could get President Putin to promise to target only a place like Detroit in case of a war, we could come out ahead . . . .
The Dana who favors urban renewal (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:48 pmBut not Philadelphia, no matter how badly it needs it.
The Dana who is only sixty miles away (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:54 pmMr FC wrote:
Who could have expected Nikita Sergeievich Khrushchev to have foreseen this?
Nevertheless, what you have written could be almost as easily written about the eastern third of Ukraine, with the Dnieper River as the most logical natural border. Are you ready for that one, too?
The Dana who can read a map (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:59 pm“I, along with the American founders, am no big fan of democracy”
FC – So basically by focusing on a sham vote ordered up by an illegally convened Crimean parliament you are reverting to your trollish form. You really have not point.
Got it.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 12:59 pmwell he was Ukrainian, so one would think he knew what he was doing,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:02 pmYes. I predicted this from the beginning, and wrote about it here. I thought this was the likely scenario.
But maybe not even that much will be annexed.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:02 pmI focused on two things: demographics and the polling data showing only 15% of Crimeans identified as Ukrainian even before this crisis.
But carry on with this and other brilliant observations, like equating the will of the people of the Crimea with Afghanis.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:03 pmOne wonders what the Former Conservative’s position would have been when duly elected legislatures in several states passed bills of secession in 1861.
The Southern Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:04 pm“Let’s be honest here: if the Ukraine was already a NATO member, and Russia invaded, thus triggering the obligation to defend Ukraine militarily, we still wouldn’t do it!”
The less attractive Dana – Probably not given the President Feckless already helped the Ukrainians disarm and reduced the promised military capabilities of allies after coming under the steely gaze of Comrade Putin, but my point was rather oriented to those who said it was unconstitutional for the U.S. to express views or take actions relating to the affairs of foreign nations.
I am still waiting for FC to explain how the U.S. engineered the Ukrainian coup.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:04 pmIt would be conflicted. I support self-determination. And by the very same measure, oppose slavery.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:05 pmIsn’t this obvious?
Khrushchev added Crimea to Ukraine in order to make it more Russian!
It was to prevent secession (assuming what people felt and thought ever would matter.)
Not so much a vote but a possible movement – something where maybe public opinion might have an effect.
It was maybe anachronistic to worry about that. But for this sort of reason, Stalin had made Ukraine partly Russian speaking.
But what happened in 1991 was that, to get rid of Gorbachev, and the Soviet Union, AND POSSIBLE COUPS, all of its parts, including Russia under Yeltsin, seceded.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:06 pmSetting the Dnieper as the new eastern boundary of Ukraine would be the death-knell of the country.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:07 pmThey may as well just ask for Poland to annex the remainder, and really set off Putin.
“One wonders what the Former Conservative’s position would have been when duly elected legislatures in several states passed bills of secession in 1861.”
The Southern Dana – There is that logical question, but I had been resisting raising it. The parallel of protecting Union military troops stranded in the south is obvious, plus I believe FC sees slavery as obvious benefit to inferior negro genetics as he has expressed here before.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:08 pmMr FC wrote:
Alas! We don’t know what the will of the Crimeans was or would have been, had there been a genuine plebiscite, including the option to remain part of Ukraine, without
SovietRussian troops all over it. You have guessed what you believe it might have been, but what you have really done is to simply justify President Putin’s exercise of raw power.Of course, it could be argued that Der Führer knew what the will of the Germans living in the Sudetenland was, without anything as messy as a vote.
The democratic Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:08 pmWhat position would FC take if Quebec held a referendum to secede from Canada, and become an overseas province of France – and it passed?
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:09 pmit doesn’t end with the Ukraine, that is the point;
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/03/18/breaking-shooting-starts-in-crimea-as-putin-defends-annexation/
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:10 pm94. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:04 pm
I am still waiting for FC to explain how the U.S. engineered the Ukrainian coup.
That might have been easy. They knew that Yanukovych was planning to attend a meeting in Kharkov not spelled in Kharkiv in the Latin alphabet)
All you’d have to do maybe is telephone a few people in the opposition and say: Now’s your chance!!
The guards disappeared.
Only there seem to have been some last minute efforts to destroy documents. First, burning them, and when there wasn’t time, dumping them in the lake. So there was some warning, and it was maybe more of an escape from Kiev than a capture of his home while he was gone.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:10 pm“like equating the will of the people of the Crimea with Afghanis.”
FC – I think you missed something, which would be Russia’s pretext for invasion. They claimed it was to protect ethnic Russians. They claimed the same thing in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
The U.S. used the same pretext when it invaded Grenada, but we left right away after rescuing American citizens.
What differences do you see?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:15 pm“That might have been easy. They knew that Yanukovych was planning to attend a meeting in Kharkov not spelled in Kharkiv in the Latin alphabet)
All you’d have to do maybe is telephone a few people in the opposition and say: Now’s your chance!!”
FC – I take it from the above you were just speculating earlier in the thread.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:17 pmaskeptic asked:
Well, I’d say that might just improve the rest of Canada! However, you really aren’t that far off, as Scotland is preparing for a plebiscite on withdrawing from the United Kingdom. That’s one I really hope fails, though since Labour gets much of its strength from Scotland, such would insure Conservative election victories for some time to come.
The Anglophile Dana (3e4784) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:18 pmthe Chechnyan operation, was somewhat similar to Afghanistan, when they sent a Spetznaz team to take out their own trusted leader, Amin, they tried to stage a coup, but it fell through, and Dudayev was able to regroup.
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:18 pmFC – If you are not a fan of democracy, why would you give a fig about the will of the people?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:19 pmIt’s their ethnic homeland; they’re not university students and tourists.
Did you seriously ask that question?
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:21 pmFC is all about ethnic purity.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:21 pmI wonder if Former Conservative would mind if we current conservatives stormed his house and “annexed” him back into conservatism.
All under the premise of his safety, naturally.
Because it isn’t safe for his mental stability for him to continue on the path of his current political trajectory.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:22 pmTo reduce strife.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:23 pmI mostly like multi-culturalism/multi-racialism. However, reality and human behavior is what it is.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:24 pmActually, as I remember my history, Crimea is the ethnic homeland of the Tatars, who were “box-carred” to the new Tatarstan (approx. 500-mi east of Moscow – half way to Sverdlovsk/Yekaterinberg) by Stalin following the conclusion of the Great Patriotic War, since the Tatars had welcomed the Wehrmacht as Liberators.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:27 pm“Did you seriously ask that question?”
FC – Yes. Grenada was an independent country so is the Ukraine. It split from Russia more than 20 years ago. You ridiculously asked if the ancestors of the people living there go to vote on being part of Russia. Of course not. The current residents got a do over in the 1990s. Putin doesn’t like the do over, invaded, and isn’t go to leave without some treasure and prizes.
Demonstrate that it is anything different.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:30 pmSouth Ossetia was under attack by 20,000 Georgian forces. Similarly, Abkhazians, by and large, don’t want to be part of Georgia.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:31 pm“Because it isn’t safe for his mental stability for him to continue on the path of his current political trajectory.”
ES – He is nothing if not inconsistent.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:32 pmAlso of them, yes—they have an even longer history there, as far as I know.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:33 pmYes, that was it, the Czars took it initially, in those two instances, it was the last stand of the White Army, and they got the business before the
GPW started up.
Interesting Hizbut Tahir’s Crimean chapter is urging nonviolence, but no guarantees if Volodya
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:33 pmgetts busy.
“South Ossetia was under attack by 20,000 Georgian forces. Similarly, Abkhazians, by and large, don’t want to be part of Georgia.”
FC – You forgot to mention the Russian invasions.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:34 pmSouth Ossetia was under attack by 20,000 Georgian forces.
Why would Georgian Forces be attacking their own territory?
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:40 pmCould it have been because it was occupied by Russian troops and Russian supported/supplied guerrillas?
Georgia was attempting to reclaim territory that willingly went with them when they split-off from the crumbling CCCP.
FC’s history book is remarkable in what it doesn’t contain.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:41 pmIn 1990, Georgia outlawed regional parties, stymieing their hopes for independence. This quickly led to war, not for the last time, and destabilizing what had been a relatively peaceful situation.
I’m not arguing Russians are always in the right here. I’m saying people want to self-determine (largely based on ethnicity).
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:44 pmFC – We have a lot of ethnic Russians living in the U.S. When is Putin going to invade to protect them or is he just going to have them vote to secede?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:45 pmYou also have to factor in Russia’s relative power just like America’s relative power is factored in. Neither country is “fair and balanced”.
But to expect Russia to just accept the loss of the Crimea, and the land surrounding their naval bases, when their inhabitants only identified as Ukrainians 15% (pre crisis!) is absurd. Especially when they have the muscle not to have to allow this.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:47 pmDeja vu, from the previous era;
In February 1921, Georgia was attacked by the Red Army. The Georgian army was defeated and the Social-Democrat government fled the country. On February 25, 1921 the Red Army entered the capital Tbilisi and installed a communist government loyal to Moscow, led by Georgian Bolshevik Filipp Makharadze.
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:47 pm“Self-determination” … is that what its called when Russian beat Crimean Tatars to death?
SPQR (768505) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:47 pmIf you had the same percentage as in Crimea, he wouldn’t have to—it would be a done deal.
If there was a major Russian enclave that wanted to be independent, then I imagine he would support it, but more circumspect, due to distance from Russia, proximity to the US, and the lack of critical Russian bases in the area.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:49 pmRussia’s hands aren’t clean. (Whose are?) But we’re talking about the Crimean peninsula, now.
Anyway, Putin’s won this. We can all handwring about that if we like, but it is what it is.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:50 pmA general primer, I left out the earlier treaty;
http://www.alanier.at/Tartaren.html
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:50 pmFormer Conservative,
Ron Paul is on hold, waiting to talk to you on line #1.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:51 pmHe wants to know if you can write some articles for his newsletter.
Or something.
“112.Actually, as I remember my history, Crimea is the ethnic homeland of the Tatars,”
That depends on how you define a “homeland”.
The Tatars came from Mongolia, as one of the constituent groups making up the empire of Genghis Khan. They were the last remnants of the Golden Horde that settled into the region.
Before them had been other Turkic groups, various Slavic groups, the Goths, and finally various Iranian related groups like the Cimmerians and Scythians.
So does “conquered in the 13th century and established in the 15th century” qualify as an ethnic homeland? Or must we consider where they came from before that?
Sam (e8f1ad) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:51 pmIt would be neat if Quebec were to break off from real Canada. As I understand it, real Canadians have been telling them “Good riddance you cheese-eating hosers” for decades but the Quebecoise just won’t get off their bidets and do it.
Oh, the reason it would be neat: The Indian tribes that are now part of Quebec would have an excuse to break off too. There would, again, be an Indian nation in North America. Or more than one.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:53 pmIt’s an ethnic homeland, Sam—several generations. The who conquered whom thing matters, as the native Indians can attest.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:53 pmComment by Sam (e8f1ad) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:51 pm
That’s right.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:54 pmDemocracy.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:57 pm“But to expect Russia to just accept the loss of the Crimea, and the land surrounding their naval bases, when their inhabitants only identified as Ukrainians 15% (pre crisis!) is absurd. Especially when they have the muscle not to have to allow this.”
FC – Why was it allowed when the Soviet Union broke up? Derp.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:01 pmnk – Quebec has good food but they have a lot of socialists.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:06 pmI think somebody needs to measure the head sizes of those alleged ethnic Russians in the Crimea to make sure they are who Russia and Russia friendly media claim they are. What is an ethnic Russian?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:09 pmBut to expect Russia to just accept the loss of the Crimea
But that is exactly what they did in signing the Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, back in 1994.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:09 pmaskeptic – Facts are not important.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:11 pmI hear that Ireland wants to annex Boston. Or something.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:13 pmThey were in a weakened state. Plus, crucially, they had received assurances that NATO wouldn’t advance through eastern Europe.
Since then, NATO has; Russia is drawing a sensible line about that—now that it can.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:14 pmComment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:49 pm
Brighton Beach to appeal for annexation to Russian Homeland, claim political persecution by NYPD.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:15 pmIf Russia wants to annex Detroit, I won’t stand in their way.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:15 pmHey, “C-r-i-m-e-a,” or “c-r-i-m-e,”—they both resemble war zones right now.
Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 1:53 pm
Would we have to re-fight the French and Indian War (Seven-Year War)?
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:18 pmThanks, daley, I forgot that Teh Narrative must be supported.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:19 pmLike a lot of things, it’s on a continuum. But someone who has largely Russian ancestry, speaks Russian, and wants to be part of Russia rather than be part of the west would certainly qualify.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:20 pmComment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:15 pm
And when, or if, will “Low Winter Sun” return?
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:21 pmI need my fix of devastated vistas of modern Detroit.
Good question. And what side would the Louisiana Cajuns be on?
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:22 pmPutin to demand return of Northern California….
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:25 pmhe’s running short on supplies of El Primo weed from Humboldt.
Brighton Beach is toast. Cristoph is a clown.
JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:26 pmComment by nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:22 pm
Need to check with Duck Dynasty for that info.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:26 pmJust stopping by,
I had to think twice and remember that Ron is the father, Rand is the current Senator.
I thought we already knew the elder Paul was like this and why so few people took him seriously, except the young who want everyone to mind their own business anyway and forget the consequences.
I agree that one can make arguments against being involved in Crimea, Korea(s), Vietnam(s), Kuwait, Iraq, and others in between then and now, but you have to be at least honest and realistic about it. We had the Monroe Doctrine long ago when it took days if not weeks by ship to reach everywhere in our hemisphere, it is a bit head-in-sand to think we can ignore the rest of the world these days.
Is our immediate self-interest so important that we would be better off letting Hitler turn all of Europe into occupied Poland on his way to doing the same with Africa and Asia, awaiting his scientists to complete his atomic bomb and advance his jet propulsion in military aircraft while we twiddle our thumbs? I think few would hold that view, and those who do I wouldn’t take seriously.
So if one doesn’t take that view, then you need to have some clear thinking and realistic goals and plans to not end up useless to our self and others. For example, would you really have liked Saddam Hussein to have controlled the middle east and it’s oil production at the expense of the rest of the world?
To my limited knowledge I don’t think there are any good options we have in Crimea, because the best option is to be strong and not invite hostility. That’s why we like to have police departments with police actually on patrol, to make people think twice before doing evil and maybe even decide not to.
This is one of those things we should have learned in kindergarten, there will always be people who will be the bully if you let them.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:27 pmJD, we find your second clause a self-evident truth.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:27 pmYep.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:28 pmIs Henry Kissinger Anti-American Or Simply Smarter Than Some Americans?
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:30 pmPerhaps we should have negotiated a deal with Ukraine for a long-term lease of, or within, their naval base on Crimea for NATO, to better patrol in the Black Sea?
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:31 pmThat could have been done during the 90’s if Bubba wasn’t so tied up with dealing with Oval Office stains, and other wag-the-dog problems.
right like Bangladesh, Cyprus, and East Timor,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:34 pmThe 1990’s are calling wanting their Peck’s Bad Boy back.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:34 pmPat Buchanan?
“Are you serious?”
“… but previous polls had shown consistently that those favoring splitting from Ukraine and joining Russia numbered about 40 percent.”
That’s a mandate, Russkie-style…
Colonel Haiku (a26e0d) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:36 pmPerhaps an important corollary to why one can’t take hard libertarians seriously is why one can’t take US foreign policy seriously.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:37 pmLet’s see, we told the Ukrainians that they could get rid of their nukes (for payment) because the US and NATO would protect them from future Russian aggression. yeah, that’s one reason.
We told Poland and the Czech Republic we would work with them on defense with anti-missile systems, before we reneged on it.
We told people in Iraq we would work with them to defeat evil doers and not leave them stranded, (at least twice). Ditto Afghanistan. We told the world along with S. Vietnam that we wouldn’t stand by and do nothing if the North Vietnamese invaded; they did and we did (do nothing).
We have kept our word to S. Korea, Taiwan, and Japan so far, but at the rate of the growth of the Chinese Navy and the shrinking of the US Navy, another president like Obama and those countries are effectively on their own. Israel is already effectively on their own, but they’ve never fallen for the idea of letting their security be in the hands of someone else. I guess they are one group that did learn from history.
Doc, they learned the hard way that “fight or die” is not just a slogan.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:41 pmFormer Conservative,
Who do you want to see annex Israel ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:44 pmBe honest in your response.
FC is all in favor of self-determination, but does not like democracy. Double derp.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:44 pmThe key point is only 15% of Crimeans identified as Ukrainian.
Ponder that.
Only 15% of Californians, say, see themselves as primarily American—40% as Mexican (45% in the prior poll), and various other factions. What do you think would be the inevitable result in this case?
Then there’s a major crisis which even results in violence between their faction and the 15%, in their region, faction.
You think they’ll find it hard to get majority support? I think not. A plurality is built in, and majority a fantastically easy bar to pass.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:48 pmHey, I’ve got some surveys in my pocket!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:49 pmIf you take “Russian” identified with “Crimean” identified, you’re already well over 50% with no one else needed.
And the crisis is likely to move Russians back into the Russian column.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:50 pmDid all of those voters have a photo ID ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:52 pmhttp://pjmedia.com/instapundit/185506/
Colonel Haiku (a26e0d) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:53 pm“The key point is only 15% of Crimeans identified as Ukrainian.”
FC – No, the key point is that Crimea came out of the break up of the USSR as part of the Ukraine. What part of the population of the overall Ukraine is so-called ethnic Russian?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:54 pmI never knew that Putin was such a proponent of voting. And stuff.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:54 pmFrance is beating the war drums in an effort to annex the little town of Paris, Texas.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:55 pmOne man’s mandate is another man’s lebenschraum.
Colonel Haiku (a26e0d) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:57 pmMore related than people like to know, New York Times science reporter Nicholas Wade has a new book out, A Troublesome Inheritance—Genes, Race and Human History— that upfront says:
Cultural factors are also important and they each influence each other. They certainly influence events such as these we are seeing unfolding!
If you don’t understand this, and instead point to this agreement or that (ignoring the ones where the West was deceitful on, no less!) then you’re not going to be able to understand a lot of things you wrongly think you do—and not just internationally.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:57 pmKevin M. – I love it when the left harps on the importance of ethnic purity in self-determination.
Diversity is a fraud.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:57 pmHe has removed all doubt, why Ron Paul wasn’t taken seriously back in the 80s, on foreign policy,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 2:59 pmJohn Kerry is odds -on favorite to surpass Hilary Clinton’s record as Sec of State who is left holding pud in hand.
Colonel Haiku (a26e0d) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:03 pm“Mr. Preezy? Teh 80’s are calling and they want a real president at the helm”
Colonel Haiku (a26e0d) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:10 pmRussia has been conquering Crimea for a very long time. Wikipedia, History of Crimea Never seems to last long.
htom (412a17) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:16 pmIf a New York Times reporter says something is true, take it to the bank!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:27 pmWell it’s certainly nothing to start WW3 over.
And as I’ve said elsewhere, this isn’t a Putin thing—any Russian leader would have acted fundamentally this way.
He’s been circumspect.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:34 pmMore Pat Buchannan—less neocon B.S.
He may be the most practical minded of various pundits or politicians out there regarding the ongoing story of Russia and Ukraine.
So on one side of the ledger there are people like Ron Paul, and on the other side there are folks like the following, or a particular fellow who could have been in the White House today instead of the debacle we got stuck with (or a sitting president who very well may be the worst of both worlds)…
zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-18/28-year-old-former-jpmorgan-banker-jumps-his-death-latest-series-recent-suicides — Comment by gary gulrud
That’s a haunting series of events, of an ongoing case of suicides over the past year or two that hasn’t caused too much of a stir in the media.
I recall all the tales of bankers jumping off skyscrapers in New York City following the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929, but that supposedly being largely apocryphal, more urban myth than reality.
What’s going on with people involved in the financial industry in this time in history ain’t a myth. But merely one more thing that gives a rather demented tinge to this era in US history, to a phase when the ethos of “Goddamn America” was somewhat self-inflicted.
Mark (40dc7c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:34 pmI wouldn’t go that far.
A certain amount of diversity, whether it’s genetic or cultural, probably provides very important benefits. But if it exceeds some amount which can vary depending on the circumstances, it leads to violence, less social behavior (people literally socialize less in more diverse communities), and destabilization, partition, etc.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:37 pmActually no, in many respects, Obama has bent over backwards with regards to Russia, reducing the footprint of the missile defense system, not really pressing on the Iran sanctions, less supporting Libya and the half handed gestures in gesture, work against it,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:37 pmHear, hear.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:41 pmDiversity is a meaningless nonword.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:44 pmThe New York Times is surprising for having a good science reporter. Charles Murray, a leading intellectual figure behind the ’90s welfare reform, was certainly baffled by it.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:45 pmWell no, not really. It means more things that are unlike each other rather than less things that are unlike each other.
This:
is more diverse than:
It’s a valuable concept.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:46 pmIntactivists?
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:48 pmMearsheimer, whose fulsome ‘protocols’ could have been translated from Arabic,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:52 pmFormer Conservative, I believe you have proven Patterico’s thesis statement, which happens to be the title of this particular post.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:53 pmWay, way off topic — and NSFW — but Anthony Wiener could sure have learned a thing from this Fox affiliate news guy.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:59 pmA certain amount of diversity, whether it’s genetic or cultural, probably provides very important benefits.
I’ve said previously that if leftism were a “race” or “ethnicity,” or “gender,” or sexual orientation, or religion, or nationality, that would be THE race/ethnicity/gender/sexuality/etc most crucial and compelling to the biggest supporters of diversity.
Of course, I can think of certain instances when people of opposing ideological backgrounds will make for odd bedfellows, perhaps motivated by factors ultimately tied to race/ethnicity/gender/etc. But in most cases, it’s shared liberalism — or corrupt leftist politics — that seems to make the diversity brigade feel most happy, most animated, most relevant, most into their raison d’etre.
Mark (40dc7c) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:01 pmWay, way off topic — and NSFW
Hilarious. Somehow symbolic of the reliability and legitimacy of the MSM in today’s day and age.
Mark (40dc7c) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:05 pmI think John Mearsheimer’s opinion on most any subject has been seriously questioned due to some of his previous “scholarship”.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:06 pmI don’t think I could rely on him for accurate directions to the men’s room.
180. “Well it’s certainly nothing to start WW3 over.”
Quaint simplisme. The assassination of the ArchDuke and missus clearly need not have launched WWI.
People reacted stupidly.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:14 pmNope. You’ve got to make them say “diversity of_______”. And then you have something you can understand. Without the qualifier, you know they’re blowing smoke up your diversity. And then when they tell you of “skin tone and hair texture”, you know they’re idiots.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:14 pm“Quaint simplisme. The assassination of the ArchDuke and missus clearly need not have launched WWI.”
gary – I’m sure FC will argue that when China annexes Taiwan, no problem, ethnic Chinese.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:19 pm174. Diversity’s current status in Minnesotastan is Unassailable Good and Beneficent God.
We are so screwed.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:19 pmOnly 15% of Californians, say, see themselves as primarily American—40% as Mexican (45% in the prior poll), and various other factions. What do you think would be the inevitable result in this case?
There are many, on both sides, that are prepared to re-fight the Mexican-American War of 1846-1848.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:22 pmFormer Conservative is also trying to figure out what might happen if North Dakota attempts to annex South Dakota.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:25 pm197. The collapse of the Ottoman and Habsburg empires were just an unpleasant nuisance.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:26 pmConsidering that the Kuomintang, now ruling Taiwan, considers mainland China to be a rebellious part of its Republic of China (Taiwan) ….
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:26 pmMearsheimer – not content to merely be known as an anti-semitic hack – decides to show he is a moron too by writing a column with brazen falsehoods in it.
SPQR (768505) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:26 pmES – Which state has the bigger navy?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:27 pmSPQR, I was trying to be a bit more polite.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:28 pmdaley…..Hands down, it’s Kansas, sailing those Seas of Wheat.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:29 pmWith Il Douche Amerikkka the hyperpower has collapsed. Not that we weren’t in decline but our restoration at this point is as improbable as that of Russia to her former Glory.
The result is horror vacui, every tinpot dictator will during a regime of economic collapse divert his population with ethnic hatreds and envies.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:35 pmaskeptic – Fine, I did not naval power to be a bone of contention the way FC alleges it is between Russia and the Ukraine, who had a port deal that runs through 2042.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:35 pm“I did not want“
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:38 pmI forgot about teh Prarie Schooners. D’oh!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:39 pmMr FC wrote:
Emphasis in the original.
Now, as I read that, it would seem that Mr FC has just legitimized an move that Tsar Vladimir makes to conquer and invade all of the Ukraine. After all, the old USSR not only included all of Ukraine, but had a series of buffer states in the Warsaw Pact. Now those old Warsaw Pact nations are part of NATO, and while Belorus, Ukraine and Georgia are the buffer states, both Ukraine and Georgia are under consideration for NATO membership.
Under the terms Mr FC enunciated, not only ought we to expect Russia to seize the entire Ukraine, as a reasonable action for its own defense, but I’d say that President Putin would actually be derelict in his duty if he doesn’t do so.
The militaristic Dana (af9ec3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:45 pmThen why did I repeatedly post an article about how stupid it would be for Russia to do this [and predict from the beginning that this would not happen, including disagreeing with SPQR about it quite some time ago]?
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:49 pmWell I linked the Intercepter, which has been most perceptive on his ultimate aims, it had a piece by Paul Goble, which suggests Volodya might have bitten off more then he can chew, in the long run,
It was the tough bout in the Crimean war, that made Alexander 11, consider selling Alaska, it was the Russo Japanese war, that almost led to a full fledge revolution, and World War 1, that toppled the czar,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:54 pmMr FC, you already gave the reason: that NATO has been advancing toward Russia, and that Russia “is drawing a sensible line about that—now that it can.” Crimea and its naval base are nice, but hardly the buffer zone that the old Soviet Union used to have.
As for “Why would he want to annex Western Ukraine where hatred of Russia dates back to the forced famine of the Stalin era,” the USSR managed to keep Ukraine under control until the USSR broke up. If President Putin wants to restore anything like the old Soviet Union, he’s going to be willing to accept those costs. For a former KGB officer, those costs are normal and expected. (He might decide that he doesn’t really want Kazakhstan and the others; they’re fecesholes anyway.)
The Dana who read it (af9ec3) — 3/18/2014 @ 4:57 pm“Then why did I repeatedly post an article about how stupid it would be for Russia to do this”
FC – Do you really want people to answer this?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:02 pmwe’re in the best of all possible hands;
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-reaction.html?hp&_r=0#
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:02 pmNo, but it doesn’t have to fight to keep them, since most people there want them there or are ambivalent about it, as opposed to bitterly oppose them like they would in Western Ukraine.
However much you imagine he may want to, he can’t and he knows it. That’s why, as I pointed out, he’s been circumspect.
More on that [“said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine”—not because he’s super swell, but because it’s not in Russia’s interests: he’s been acting rationally throughout this].
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:04 pmFor the sake of argument, imagine if America had given North Dakota to Canada, there was some quarreling, and North Dakota wanted back in the union. America would take it.
It wouldn’t be a constant struggle on par with occupying Kandahar. (I should think this isn’t hard to understand.)
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:11 pmLet’s see, we told the Ukrainians that they could get rid of their nukes (for payment) because the US and NATO would protect them from future Russian aggression. yeah, that’s one reason.
We told Poland and the Czech Republic we would work with them on defense with anti-missile systems, before we reneged on it.
We told people in Iraq we would work with them to defeat evil doers and not leave them stranded, (at least twice). Ditto Afghanistan. We told the world along with S. Vietnam that we wouldn’t stand by and do nothing if the North Vietnamese invaded; they did and we did (do nothing).
This is the meta I was referring to above.
Watch out Brighton Beach. Christoph is willing to let Russia annex you.
JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:16 pm(I should think this isn’t hard to understand.)
Christoph never fails to be a pompous mendoucheous twatwaffle. Never. Maybe if he knew Russians spank their children too.
JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:19 pmIt’s a violent culture. Less spanking, more love—advocate for human rights progress.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:21 pmIf there is strife in the world does that make it tougher or just more expensive for those Ron Paul supporters who indulge to get their drugs? Are there any dots to connect here people?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:23 pmJD – Do those Russian fiends have an assisted suicide law, especially for people who have suffered the horror of a circumcision?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:25 pmthe short answer is maybe;
http://tomnichols.net/blog/2014/03/16/did-the-obama-administration-enable-the-invasion-of-crimea/
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:26 pmComment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:21 pm
Spanking is tough love.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:37 pmIt is harmful, as well as being evil.
At any rate, whatever. I’m on the winning side of history there, as you shall see, and do see now if you look at various jurisdictions around the world where things are tilting in my favor.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:41 pmYeah, the wining side of history . . . as we’ve seen crime and delinquency and bastardy increase tremendously.
The winning side of history is the losing side of civilization.
The Dana who is a father (af9ec3) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:55 pmVolodya has played for keeps, dispatching nearly the entire Chechen leadership, one on a busy Doha
street corner, with this last instance;
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/03/islamic_caucasus_emi_1.php
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:55 pmSay, FC, wasn’t the Soviet Union on the winning side of history.
askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:57 pmPresident Mom Jeans
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:01 pmwe need a fat president
who works not works out
“132.It’s an ethnic homeland, Sam—several generations. The who conquered whom thing matters, as the native Indians can attest.”
Well then . . .
The Russians conquered in at the end of the 18th century. They even renamed part of it “New Russia”.
So doesn’t that make it a Russian homeland now?
Should I note the number of areas of the United States that have been part of this country for less time? Are they subject to summary recovery by the native Indians by virtue of restricted plebiscite? (And need I cite some “votes” being held in Hawaii and Guam on the basis of such a restricted electorate to establish a precedent for the same?)
Not that I am trying to establish some Russian “right” to seize the Crimea; far from it, as I fully oppose this usurpation for various reasons.
Sam (e8f1ad) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:02 pmWhat I am trying to demonstrate is that appeals to being an “ethnic homeland” in that region are very highly subjective. The earliest inhabitants are long gone, the contenders for most recent inhabitants all have issues we should distrust, and any parsing of prior right is going to play very poorly for pretty much all of Europe and the Americas as a precedent.
I doubt very much many if any of you have watched the fact-filled 17-minute video I have posted today and before. It is much easier just to justify your behavior and what was done to you. That is the norm for child abuse in every country—children and adults rationalize it. I did too.
We have to, we have to to survive … and to maintain our trust in our parents who we’re utterly dependent on.
However, stopping spanking reduces crime.
This isn’t the main reason to stop it—the main reason is that is unjust to use force against children—but it is a very good one.
One day it will be as looked down upon as female genital mutilation, slavery, or child sacrifice, or cannabilism, or organized pederasty—for among other things, it increases crime among those spanked.
In any just and decent society, every instance of spanking increases crime, because it is hitting a child, a terrible crime.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:06 pmlet’s get old timey
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:07 pmvote Les Paul for President!
Strat Pack Cabinet
Don’t you know he gonna Spank teh Monkey!
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:08 pmyer like a terrier with a rat, Christoph.
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:09 pmGood lord. You realize it has a lot to do with the actual numbers of people of whatever ethnicity living there now and their power, right? It isn’t an abstract principle I’m talking about here. It’s reality.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:10 pmUkraine tried to break away in the 30s. the Holomodor was the result, their subsequent support for the only party that they thought would liberate them, to their great regret, is another example,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:11 pmSam – Is there an accepted holding period under international law to create an ethnic homeland claim?
Asking for FC and a friend. 🙂
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:14 pmTeh Great Spring Spank of 2014: March to Sevastopol
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:16 pmIt isn’t all that complicated.
If some native band wanted to secede and the US didn’t want them to, good luck.
But if the US was a small country and there was a very large native Indian country next to the band which wanted to secede, then things get interesting.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:19 pmAt any rate, whatever. I’m on the winning side of history there,
Sweet. You and Obama must be besties, claiming the mantle of holier than thou based on a nebulous idea of what may or may not occur at some point between now and well, forever.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:21 pmI am on the winning side is an affirmative statement of a future unknown. You are a tool.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:21 pmJD, I oppose Obama’s policy on both spanking and the Ukraine, so I don’t know what you’re talking about—and if I don’t, you sure don’t.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:22 pmThe trendline is decidedly in my direction.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:24 pmI know exactly what I am talking about. Your use of his oft invoked mendoucheous construct was too cute. He even tried to use it when he was waxing eloquent about the Russian aggression. I am shocked that you do not recognize that you and he share in the use of such a silly construct.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:25 pmObama’s policy:
Detente, or the reset with Russia, or whatever you would call it now, is too BIG to FAIL.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:26 pm“The trendline is decidedly in my direction.”
FC – What, the decline of America?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:26 pmThe trendline is decidedly in my direction.
Trend lines do not make an affirmative endorsement of a current position. We were once trending towards and ice age. Then trending towards global boiling. Now, we are maintaining status quo, though your hot air and CO2 expulsion could change those metrics.
#smegma
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:27 pmYes, I know.
However, the scientific evidence—and moral argument—is overwhelmingly on my side, and since scientific understanding is increasing and the long, long term trend is to increasing recognition of human rights and decreased acceptance of interpersonal aggression, it isn’t a stretch to say this trend will grow.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:31 pm239. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:14 pm
Sam – Is there an accepted holding period under international law to create an ethnic homeland claim?
Asking for FC and a friend.
Well, in Europe, there are not supposed to be any more changes.
We leave the boundaries bwteen countries alone.
Or at least that’s what Leonid Brezhnev was so anxious to get the NATO allies to sign in 1975, so much so, he was even willing to add some he thought pro forma human rights languuage to the Helsinki agreement.
Of course Putin could say:
But, but, but, nobody expected Ukraine to be a genuine independent country then!
However, Yeltsin reaffirmed it.
The Helsinki agreement does allow for countries to be split in pieces.
In other parts of the world there’s no real agreement, but people want too draw a line at a date. Not alwasys the same year.
This was the understanding after world war II,
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:32 pmWe’re well passed the Billy Madison line, JD;
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:32 pmWhat is the view like from your faux moral high ground?
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:33 pm238.Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:11 pm
Ukraine tried to break away in the 30s.
Ukraine didn’t try to break away in the 1930s. That’s just one of the things stalin was afraid of.
It did break away in 1918, under German patronage, and before that actually, I don’t think anybody even thought of the idea of an independent place called Ukraine.
the Holomodor was the result, their subsequent support for the only party that they thought would liberate them, to their great regret, is another example,
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:35 pmNarcisco – has he even admitted that he is the newest incarnation of Cristoph?
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:35 pm#CircumcisionIsACrimeAgainstSmegma
In Europe and America there’s a growing feeling of hysteria.
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:36 pmConditioned to respond to none of the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Putinettes
MIster Krushchev said, “We will bury you!”
He beat the sh*t out of that old shoe
It’d be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians don’t spank their children too.
How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer’s deadly toy?
When Mister Obama lacks the common sense
And his VP Joe is teh far side of dense
Our friends can’t rely on us, and they’ll die with us
Believe me when I say to you,
I hope the Russians spank their children too
Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 3:34 pm
Moreover, Putin has insisted upon lying about them not being Russian troops, claiming they are some kind of indigenous Crimean militia that has sprung up spontaneously.
Some of them were so-called Chetniks from Serbia.
You don’t need to make three guesses as to how they got there.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:38 pmThis episode of the Argument Clinic, has been brought to you, by the letter C,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:40 pmClaiming to be on the right side of history, for something that may or may not happen in the future, might be one of the most mendoucheous constructs around. Period.
JD (bc236d) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:02 pmHow did this devolve into FC’s spanking fetish?
SPQR (768505) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:02 pmOne thing’s for certain, SPQR… he had a hand in it!
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:07 pmYou know who else says he’s on the right side of history, even though he’s been wrong on every issue since 1979?
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:08 pmyes, about that;
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/15/russian-commandos-invade-ukraine.html
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:11 pmBalaclavas in Balaclava.
nk (dbc370) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:19 pmat first, they had the Defense Ministry’s private contractor, V.O, now Spetznaz, as they did in Afghanistan and Chechnya before them, maskirovna, and desinformatiya, disguise and deception,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:32 pmComment by SPQR (768505) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:02 pm
These folk are responsible for tossing the bait:
Comment by JD (5c1832) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:19 pm
Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:25 pm
Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 3/18/2014 @ 5:37 pm
Stop it, just stop it all youses.
If you want, I” get Painted Jaguar to argue with you about something, at least he will not claim to be on “the right side of history”. (The last creature that he heard saying that ended up as lunch for his mummy.)
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:50 pmPainted Jaguar (ears perking up): Did someone say baklava??
Painted Jaguar (a sockpuppet) (f9371b) — 3/18/2014 @ 7:52 pmOthers brought up my objective to reduce violence in the world, beginning with reducing violence against children, as a cheap ad hominem attacks.
I went with it because I may have more positive influence on the world by this than by pointing out neocon foreign policy mistakes to “conservatives”. Also, spanking does influence violence and war.
But it was mostly responding to ad hominems.
By the way, I am sure we are both glad your prediction of Russia forces attacking Kiev and Western Ukraine by now was wrong.
Former Conservative (0cf175) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:04 pmMD in Philly – I said nothing about spanking, although I am sure FC goes through a lot of lotion spanking himself.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:07 pmSorry, Painted Jaguar. Cristoph is an insufferable blowhard.
JD (2bc676) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:10 pmRe-set, re-set, re-set. What happened to the re-set button?
AZ Bob (533fbc) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:14 pmThe sanctions that we leveled on 7 individuals are just devastating.
JD (2bc676) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:16 pmYes, that was stupid, not going after Rosneft or Gazprom, but it’s all about the pose, not the objective,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:31 pmHe’s gonna need an ocean
Colonel Haiku (945927) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:34 pmof Jergen’s Hand Lotion
he’ll be givin’ it a poundin’
teh minute he starts to mess around an’
monkey spanki-i-i-i-in’ monkey spanki-i-i-i-in’
What should interest us is how Libertarians who tend toward isolationism differ or exhibit similarities with the Won.
Gay overtures to Bad Men seem to induce bullying in response.
I’m sure Libertarians can avoid that. But what about flaccid lip service generally. I’ll admit it, I think pursuing, attending to their many words, the Libertarians and then down the line saying, ‘ah, not this time’, will cause more trouble than simply ignoring them.
gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:40 pmthe paul faction, really doesn’t think there is any practical defense function for the state, except for last ditch homeland defense, which is the very last rung,
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:44 pmhence in the 80s, Paul sr, was willing to indulge the Christic craziness, much as in the last decade, he toys with the fringes of 9/11 rationalization if not denial
narciso (3fec35) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:48 pmRon Paul is never going to be president of anything, but his son might be our next leader. He really needs to be pressed on this.
We need to know if Rand thinks that we can bring our troops home and the Navy into port, like his daddy does, or whether he has a better understanding of the real world.
Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:33 pmLibertarians view the primary duty of the state to be defending the people from violence and coercion.
Statists view the state as the primary tool of coercion, backed by the threat of legal violence.
Hence the tension.
Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:37 pmComment by AZ Bob (533fbc) — 3/18/2014 @ 8:14 pm
What happened to the re-set button?
It’s too BIG to Fail.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:44 pmHere’s how it is.
Former Conservative (1d1faf) — 3/18/2014 @ 10:38 pm236. Good lord. You realize it has a lot to do with the actual numbers of people of whatever ethnicity living there now and their power, right? It isn’t an abstract principle I’m talking about here. It’s reality.
Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:10 pm
Surely you jest.
On the basis of the actual number of people living there, then Crimea is absolutely part of Russia.
On the basis of their actual power, then Crimea is absolutely part of Russia.
Either way, the Tatars are short one ethnic homeland.
So in point of fact, any discussion on the concept of an “ethnic homeland” can only proceed within the context of an abstract principle if you want to support anyone but Putin.
238.Sam – Is there an accepted holding period under international law to create an ethnic homeland claim?
Asking for FC and a friend. 🙂
Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/18/2014 @ 6:14 pm
Yes there is.
The accepted holding period under international law is:
The precise borders after the changes and population exchanges at the end of the war are to be considered “from time immemorial” and thus immutable, unless of course they are found to be inconvenient to the powers that be at some point in time, in which case shut up you!
That is why it was fundamental to the principle of self-determination that Kosovo had to be independent from Serbia but it would be atrocity against the natural order if Iraq was partitioned, and respect the international community’s authori-tah!
Sam (e8f1ad) — 3/19/2014 @ 12:51 amWhen I’m not on the winning side of history, I change my position! Easy-peasy, Japa…eleventy!1!11!
I was for it b’fore I was a’gin it!—Famous War Hero who reported for duty.
Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 3/19/2014 @ 1:30 amMr FC wrote:
Which is an admission from you that it’s all about power. We knew that all along.
The Dana cutting through the bovine feces (3e4784) — 3/19/2014 @ 3:26 amAZ Bob asked:
Got run over by a
The snarky Dana (3e4784) — 3/19/2014 @ 3:30 amSovietRussian tank, crushed underneath the treads.Hillary gave it back to Barbara Walters.
nk (dbc370) — 3/19/2014 @ 4:39 amdaley, correct in that I don’t think you used the “sp” word, but you did use the “ci” word.
I’m all for stopping violence against children, especially the kind where the child is torn apart piece by piece and thrown away.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/19/2014 @ 4:59 amIn a little less than six years, Obama has managed to fritter away the precious and hard earned credibility of the US, earned through the heroic deaths of hundreds of thousands of American servicemen over the last seventy years or so.
Orcadrvr (38828c) — 3/19/2014 @ 7:54 amHe has managed to earn the enmity and distrust of both Israel and Saudi Arabia (no small achievement), and was powerless to assist the Iranian attempt to gain democracy or to stop the Egyptian move toward Islamic dictatorship.
Now, the Cold War has started up again. I had assumed that we won that one, but apparently not.
Stand by for further developments as the Baltic states, Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe await the arrival of Russian forces.
Russia unexpectedly confiscated the Ukrainian navy or maybe those Ukrainian ships ethnically self-determined that they should belong to Russia and that their Ukrainian crews should be expelled.
Good times.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/19/2014 @ 11:43 amBOLO for steely eyed gazes from Obama and Kerry.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/19/2014 @ 11:44 amPeters today announced that the federal government is making $2 million available immediately to help cover the cost of repairing flood damaged roads in Washington state. The mayor of Pacific is not happy and wants to know if it could have been prevented,14-14-122039. Jackson, who entered the game hitting .407 against the Indians, opened the first with a double. He went to third on a sac bunt and scored on Ryan Raburn’s double past third. Effect: The cast strips naked and anoints himself in the
Portefeuille Louis Vuitton Zippy Organizer Pas Cher N60003 Brun (3ff7c8) — 3/19/2014 @ 11:25 pmComment by Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/18/2014 @ 9:33 pm
We need to know if Rand thinks that we can bring our troops home and the Navy into port, like his daddy does, or whether he has a better understanding of the real world.
I think he has a better understanding of the real world – and Ron Paul does, too – than he lets on.
Sammy Finkelman (20c5cc) — 3/20/2014 @ 1:31 am