Patterico's Pontifications

9/2/2013

R.I.P. Frederik Pohl

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:03 pm



Another (the last?) of the science fiction greats passes on, at age 93.

Pohl was famous for many works, but I think my favorites were his collaborations with C.M. Kornbluth. If you have not read The Space Merchants, do yourself a favor and read it now.

I met Pohl once, at a science fiction convention. I believe I was a teenager at the time. I had read an essay by Issac Asimov, which you can read here, in which Asimov claimed that Pohl had saved the Foundation series from extinction:

However, when I started the second story (on October 24), I found that I had outsmarted myself. I quickly wrote myself into an impasse, and the Foundation series would have died an ignominious death had I not had a conversation with Fred Pohl on November 2 (on the Brooklyn Bridge, as it happened). I don’t remember what Fred actually said, but, whatever it was, it pulled me out of the hole.

As I say, I had read this before I met Pohl, and I asked him about it when we met. What did you say to Asimov that rescued the Foundation series? I asked him. He had no memory of it. He says you were on the Brooklyn Bridge at the time. Nope. Nothing. “You know, I don’t really remember that.”

Even then, Pohl had a capacious pot belly under a T-shirt. As my mom said, Pohl looked like a guy who really enjoyed life. He didn’t necessarily look like he would make it to 93, but I’m glad he did.

67 Responses to “R.I.P. Frederik Pohl”

  1. I know at least one of our commenters has some Pohl stories.

    Let’s hear them.

    Patterico (6b9b92)

  2. I never met Fred Pohl myself, although I have some friends and acquaintances who were friends of his. So my Kevin Bacon number to Pohl is “2”.

    I read all of his stuff, although he was not exactly to my taste in SF. Frederick Pohl always seemed to me to be fascinated by the incompetent Man – in contrast to Heinlein who was fascinated by the competent Man.

    A true great of American literature in my opinion.

    SPQR (768505)

  3. I am not entirely clear on what Frederick Pohl
    wrote and what Poul Anderson wrote.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  4. Frederick Pohl’s blog:

    http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/

    (which I didn’t know about)

    Last post: September 2, 2013 at 9:00 am

    Who’s writing this?

    The story reerred to here:

    http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/2013/08/when-you-give-it-away/#respond

    That is:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/is-it-nuts-to-give-to-the-poor-without-strings-attached.html?smid=pl-share

    …was actually sommething i wanted to mention here somewhere.

    It’s actually a kind of a Republican idea. At least they always compare the “War on Poverty” with just giving people money. In the case of hat village in Africa I suppose you could say people were so used ot being poor, and had thought so long about what they would do if got a little bit of money, tghat the money was put to good use.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  5. Sammy, here is what [object TextRange] wrote,

    and what [object TextRange] wrote.

    Icy (216b6b)

  6. Well, that was weird.
    First link is Fred Pohl’s bibliography,
    Second link is Poul Anderson’s biblio.

    Icy (216b6b)

  7. Today is also the 40th anniversary of J.R.R. Tolkien’s death.

    Icy (216b6b)

  8. No Frederick Pohl stories from me, either. I suppose I could claim a number of 2, since I’m sure Scott Imes knew him. There’s a bibliography at Wikipedia and his blog at The Way the Future Blogs last up dated Saturday.

    The Space Merchants. Gladiator-at-Law. The Heechee series. The Quantum Cats. … looking at the list, there are more, those were before I looked.

    Another of those WW2 vets, who had a life, went to war, came back, and resumed his life, long, happy, and well-lived. Rest in peace.

    htom (412a17)

  9. I never read Pohl. I was an Asimov reader as a youngster. I read a ton of Asimov’s science books before realizing (in college) he also wrote science fiction.

    This is only my opinion; Asimov was a great science fiction writer, but all his characters had the same “voice”, the same vocabulary, the same idioms. I endured the dialogue to enjoy the story.

    I am in Pohl’s debt for what he did for Asimov. I will endeavor to read some of his works this weekend. Would someone kindly suggest something?

    felipe (6100bc)

  10. (the last posts could be previous timed to post, or a family member, several of whom are writers.)

    htom (412a17)

  11. 347. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 9/2/2013 @ 5:27 pm

    Whos’s left from that era, Pouernelle, anybody else,

    Comment by Icy (216b6b) — 9/2/2013 @ 5:58 pm

    Larry Niven, James Gunn, Brian Aldiss

    377. Comment by Icy (216b6b) — 9/2/2013 @ 6:01 pm

    And Harlan Ellison

    Aren’t they quite abit younger?

    Larry Niven was born in 1038.

    James Gunn was born in 1923 (but I never heard of him or don’t remember the name)

    Brian Aldiss was born in 1025. (he;s that old?) James Gunn started writing stories in 1949 and Brian aldiss in the late 1950s.

    Harlan Ellison was born in 1934. he;s from the era of Robert Silverberg,

    Frederick Pohl was born on November 26, 1919 and was active already in 1940 – in fact in the 1930s.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  12. Yes, I am going to read the Space Merchants. I should have indicated that I wanted another suggestion.

    felipe (6100bc)

  13. I read more of Asimov, Clarke, Harrison, but I was aware of Pohl,

    narciso (3fec35)

  14. felipe — start with “Gateway”, the first of the Heechee novels.

    htom (412a17)

  15. I just finished re-reading LOTR. I haven’t read the book in some years. It is a great story and I didn’t realize that Asimov beat Tolkien for a Hugo in 1966. Foundation is a great series (no longer just a trilogy).

    I read a lot of alternative history now with Turtledove being one of my favorite authors. But I don’t read as much SciFi as I did when I was a kid. I guess I realized that I was going to be stuck on this planet and the lure of escaping gravity through books just wasn’t compelling.

    Still, Asimov was one of the most talented writers of the century and that is saying a great deal.

    Odd how those little twists and turns shape events. Two important figures have a chance meeting on a bridge in Manhattan and neither can recall the topic, yet one insists the conversation was “foundational” to the author’s work…

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  16. Pohl was a renaissance man within the SF community. One of the first science-fiction magazine fans to turn professional writer — his poem “Elegy to a Dead Planet: Luna” was published in Amazing Stories before his 18th birthday — he was the last surviving writer from ‘The Golden Age of SF’. He was an author, a collaborator (with C.M. Kornbluth, Jack Williamson and others), a book reviewer, one of the earliest science fiction anthologists, a magazine editor, a book editor, and an ambassador for the genre.

    Icy (216b6b)

  17. Thanks, htom, I will. Also, I just spent a while reading at the blog: The way the Future Blogs. I like Pohl’s style which is warm and friendly. Especially this post:

    http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/2013/07/wanna-publish-a-new-sci-fi-mag/

    felipe (6100bc)

  18. James Gunn and Katherine MacLean are the only remaining writers of significance whose work was first published in the 40’s (both in 1949). Everyone else is from the 1950’s onward.

    Icy (216b6b)

  19. felipe, I second the recommendation of “Gateway”.

    Icy (216b6b)

  20. I am not entirely clear on what Frederick Pohl
    wrote and what Poul Anderson wrote.

    Then you have read neither.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  21. A good introduction to Pohl & Kornbluth is their classic short story: “The Marching Morons.”

    As good an SF write as Pohl was, his major impact on the field was as an editor, particularly at Galaxy, but also as they guy who bought Delany’s Dahlgren and Joanna Russ’ The Female Man. and wrested SF from the iron grip of John Campbell.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  22. So, who is remaining of the dinosaurs?

    Clarke died in 2008, Jack Williamson in 2006, Gordon Dickson in 2001, van Vogt in 2000. Most of the old guard had preceded them.

    There’s Ellison, born in 1934 and first published in 1958, and Robert Silverberg, born in 1935 and first published in 1955. Larry Niven, born 1938 is certainly a grand master, but he’s very much second wave. Daniel Keyes (born 1927) is older, won a Hugo and is still alive, but he only wrote one story anyone remembers.

    This makes me feel old.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  23. Richard Matheson just died recently. I don’t know where to place Jack Vance, next to Zelazny he was my favorite, but he passed away, and Zelazny’s been gone a long time too. These guys may not have been pioneers but they are timeless.

    nk (875f57)

  24. A good introduction to Pohl & Kornbluth is their classic short story: “The Marching Morons.”

    You betcha! And “Call me Joe” for Poul Anderson. They’re both literature not Star Wars fan fiction.

    nk (875f57)

  25. nk, I always felt Cameron should have paid Anderson’s estate some money for “Call Me Joe.” But that’s me.

    I met Pohl once or twice at LASFS in the 1980s. He was a character. Remember that he made his bones as a editor (and most authors are irritable with editors). Pohl could wear both hats.

    It’s really, really politically incorrect. But I remember Pohl saying that the Hugo and Nebula Awards were the Special Olympics of literature.

    Big pause (especially from the Hugo and Nebula winners), and everyone laughed.

    That what you meant, Patterico?

    Simon Jester (a39672)

  26. Pohl was a funny one…hard to peg. Despite all of his protestations, he really didn’t understand anything but the ad business, and publishing. But he kept pushing, trying.

    “The Gold at Starbow’s End” is my favorite story of his. It’s very, very hard to write about something as intelligent as a person, who isn’t a human being. Now imagine writing about something far, far more intelligent than a human being. That story does it. I loved it and still do.

    He also liked his aphorisms. I think the one that is most true is: “Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere will not hate it“.

    So he was a fine student of humanity. RIP, and much missed. His wife Elizabeth Anne Hull was very nice, and she must be devastated (along with his children and grandchildren).

    Entropy comes for us all.

    Simon Jester (a39672)

  27. Oh, and what made Pohl’s “Special Olympics” joke particularly funny? He had won Hugo and Nebula awards a couple of years prior.

    Simon Jester (a39672)

  28. That what you meant, Patterico?

    You were the person I had in mind.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  29. I just ordered “The Gold at Starbow’s End” which I had not read before.

    I hopped on YouTube to look up Pohl interviews of which there are precious few, and have gotten caught up watching Asimov interviews. Never heard him speak before, even in a video.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  30. So I am sure you saw the bit where Bradbury pointed out that Pohl refused to represent him as a literary agent and thought Bradbury had no talent?

    Oh, my.

    Simon Jester (a39672)

  31. I did!

    Hahahahaha.

    Well. I did not come to admire him for his editorial skills, but for his writing!

    Patterico (9c670f)

  32. Asimov was certainly a bit time letch. And he had all kinds of personal quirks. But he was undeniably very, very smart and encyclopedic.

    A friend of mine has one of his famous bolo ties. That must be cool.

    Asimov contracted HIV (via a blood transfusion) and kept it secret during the early days. His widow (second wife) was a saint in general, and seemed content to take care of him throughout their marriage. I honestly don’t know if he kept up the letching.

    Asimov’s daughter is a pretty cool dame, but I don’t think she was close to her father. The son is the fellow who was accused of having child Pr0n on his computer, but clearly had some kind of processing issue.

    So success doth not purchase happiness, as the saying goes.

    My favorite story was how Asimov intended his novella “The Martian Way” to be an indictment of McCarthyism…and nobody “got it.” Whoops. Sort of like Louis B. Mayer was said to have opined: “You wanna send a message, use Western Union.”

    There is still some good SF out there, but I guess I am a fogey and enjoy the older stuff.

    Asimov’s novel “The Gods Themselves” remains my favorite of his, far more than his “Foundation” series.

    Simon Jester (a39672)

  33. Mike Resnick, Fred Saberhagen, Gene Wolfe, top tier. Glen Cook, Lawrence Watt-Evans, fun reads. But I’d guess they’d all be classified as older, too.

    nk (875f57)

  34. Damn. Met his long-time collaborator Jack Williamson once at college – Georgia Tech had a SF class as one of the humanities (literature) electives, and he came and spoke. I remember not being that thrilled with his work that was assigned reading (Firechild?), young punk that I was, but was impressed with him as a person. He had a pretty interesting perspective even then (would be 1988)…I think I recall him saying something about a wagon ride either just after birth or perhaps his mother had taken one while pregnant, offered as perspective of how fast progress (technologically at least) has gone. Anyway, the point of all this aside from defining my own Bacon number of 2 I guess is I’d also just read Gateway and remember wishing it was Pohl sitting in the class instead of Williamson. As I said…young punk.

    As for others, hands down to my mind, although he’s a young whippersnapper by comparison (1943 birth I think): Joe Haldeman of “The Forever War”, “Forever Peace”, etc. One of those rare authors who is totally captivating in his short fiction as well. I like Ellison too (“The Thanatos Mouth” is perhaps my favorite short story ever) but he really is kind of a wild bank-shot of a writer by comparison to Pohl, Asimov, and others.

    Have to admit I never liked Asimov for the same reason already pointed out by someone else here: every character was a cardboard cutout with the exact same voice. But for a way better take on the Foundation “psychohistory” concept, try Donald Kingsbury’s “Psychohistorical Crisis”. Took a little while to get going but I found that better than Asimov’s original trilogy.

    And there is a lot of good current SF still, but it takes on a totally different flavor, as would be expected: its no longer entirely speculative/gee-whiz to imagine computers, robotics, space travel, biological/genetic engineering, etc. Every writer is at least somewhat a product of his time… The one who still seems to draw the biggest sense of wonder with the complexities of the universe to me is Alastair Reynolds, although Greg Benford’s earlier galactic core story arc comes close.

    rtrski (471fdf)

  35. See, the Space Merchants, pulled off that message with a lighter touch,

    narciso (3fec35)

  36. A friend turned me onto Joe Haldeman – good friend. I enjoyed rading the two books you mentioned, rtrski.

    felipe (70ff7e)

  37. I look forward to digging into Pohl this weekend. So much so, that I feel guilty for not having started reading the book Wild Geese.

    felipe (70ff7e)

  38. HAH! “rading” I meant “reading”.

    felipe (70ff7e)

  39. Read “All My Sins Remembered”, felipe.

    nk (875f57)

  40. Even then, Pohl had a capacious pot belly under a T-shirt.

    Wasn’t it Pohl on the stage with Asimov at some WorldCon that Harlan Ellison heckled them by shouting “Tweedledum and Tweedledee!!”, to which the ever quick-witted Asimov shouted for Ellison (a very small guy) to “Come up and stand between us, you can be the period!”

    I’ve read a couple things by Pohl, they just resulted in a… “meh” response. He’s reminiscent of Greg Bear to me… the ideas seem interesting, but somehow, he never seems to go anywhere interesting with them. I read a book by either of them, and, at the end, I’m going, “WTF? That went nowhere!?!?!”

    I can’t recall what I’ve read by him except Man Plus, but that wasn’t the only thing.

    No one is required to agree with me, mind you, I’m just offering a… warning, I guess — that some may not like him.


    I am not entirely clear on what Frederick Pohl
    wrote and what Poul Anderson wrote.

    In light of my comments above — Pohl wrote nothing of interest. Poul wrote some really great stuff. 😉

    I think my favorite stories by Poul was his Polesotechnic League stuff, especially a short by the name of The Three Cornered Wheel.

    Brain Wave, and The High Crusade both come to mind, as well as the Flandry and Hoka stories.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (afdedb)

  41. Whos’s left from that era, Pouernelle, anybody else

    Yeah, there really aren’t any of the other Golden Age SF authors left. Even the Silver Age authors are getting a bit long in the tooth.

    Pournelle is definitely a Silver age author, he got his start in the 60s and early 70s after he left the space program, and his main success has been in collusion with Larry Niven starting with The Mote In God’s Eye (though he’s written a lot of good stuff of his own). Pournelle was born in 1933, so he’s one of the Silver Age bunch that way, too.

    If you meet him at SF conventions, though, Pournelle is quite the ass. I grasp that SF fans are a bit obnoxious, being geeks and all, but he acts like you’re a geek even if you’re not.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (afdedb)

  42. The Hugos are indeed the Special Olympics of literature. This last week John Scalzi won with Redshirts.

    SPQR (768505)

  43. Really it was like a good Classic stargate episode, but not prizeworthy enough, in my view.

    narciso (3fec35)

  44. felipe — start with “Gateway”, the first of the Heechee novels

    Yeah. This is it, this and Man Plus. Both sucked.
    😉

    I dunno, with Bear I read Eon and Darwin’s Radio, and all four books had great ideas and interesting concepts…. until the last 30 pages flew across the room, went splat all over the wall, fell to the floor and lay there quivering like a giant slime jell-o asking me to defend its existence, and I failed…

    To each their own, of course.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (afdedb)

  45. This makes me feel old.

    To paraphrase that past master CL Dodgson, “Beats the alternative…” 😀

    Asimov’s novel “The Gods Themselves” remains my favorite of his, far more than his “Foundation” series.

    Yeah, I liked Asimov when I was young, but his stuff after the seventies all seemed tedious and predictable — that is, the Foundation successors that wrapped the Whole thing (Robots, Foundation, and so forth) into a coherent but somewhat boring whole.

    For the most part I always preferred his short stories to his novels. I think my favorite short was always The Last Question, along with Not Final!

    OTOH, the funny thing is, I’ve never thought that much of Nightfall.

    Ellison too (“The Thanatos Mouth” is perhaps my favorite short story ever) but he really is kind of a wild bank-shot of a writer by comparison to Pohl, Asimov, and others.

    Ellison is definitely a strong difference from the Golden Age era of SF, he’s much more of a school of surrealist SF that became popular in the Silver Age. He’s done a couple things I thought were readable but most of his stuff might be best described as “psychological SF”. It seems to be aimed at playing with your head more than any classical SF story is.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (afdedb)

  46. The Hugos are indeed the Special Olympics of literature. This last week John Scalzi won with Redshirts.

    One issue with the Hugos is the nature of the voting collective. Since it’s selected by attending and supporting members of the Worldcon, you have to either be one of a fairly small collective who does attend, or be self-selecting to be one of the selectors of the award by choosing to pay the fee for being a supporting member.

    So the quality of the award recipient is going to vary considerably over time.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (afdedb)

  47. I met Pohl when I was in the 8th grade. I lived in the same town as he did, he’d agreed to let a group of kids from my local junior high school meet with him for an hour in his home, and I was in that group. I think we’d won a writing contest or something. My memory’s rather fuzzy on it.

    I recall that a year or so later I read some of his books and I didn’t care for them then. I’d probably like them more now that I’m “all growed up” I’m sure. Guess I know what my next reading project is!

    pkudude99 (3ba72b)

  48. Pohl number of 2. An old friend of mine set up and maintained his computer and blogging software.

    I read quite a bit of it, but it got problematic.
    Pohl was a long-time lefty. His reminiscences about the Golden Age were great, but they were interrupted by angry/stupid/ignorant liberal-political rants.

    The Space Merchants was interesting when it was written, but looking back on it, it’s clearly a list of left-wing talking points about the Evils of Capitalism. (Later leftism – enviromentalism, evils of consumerism, not vintage downtrodden proletariat, which by the 1950s was laughable.)

    Rich Rostrom (47c4e2)

  49. 42.The Hugos are indeed the Special Olympics of literature. This last week John Scalzi won with Redshirts.
    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 9/3/2013 @ 7:36 am

    — The Hugos are akin to the People’s Choice Awards, where (by virtue of who is doing the voting) entertainment value tends to trump literary quality in terms of voting criteria. That said, the science fiction community remains a relatively small grouping of fairly savvy readers. Quite often the Hugo voters have selected the same novel that also won the Nebula (the awards voted on by an author’s peers).

    Icy (6bf2f9)

  50. Redshirts? Savvy readers? Uh, no.

    SPQR (768505)

  51. 😉 Niven/Pournelle’s Inferno starts with the hero, a science fiction writer, sitting on a window ledge very high up, trying to impress the fans at a convention, I don’t remember which.

    nk (875f57)

  52. John Ringo put hilarious sendups of SF/Fantasy conventions into Princess of Wands and Queen of Wands.

    SPQR (768505)

  53. (That book impressed me a lot, BTW, maybe because both these guys decided to write something that was more of a story and less of a scientific treatise.)

    nk (875f57)

  54. I’m not defending the vote for “Redshirts”, SPQR.
    (that’s probably why I used the qualifier “fairly savvy”)

    Icy (6bf2f9)

  55. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 9/2/2013 @ 9:08 pm

    Daniel Keyes (born 1927) is older, won a Hugo and is still alive, but he only wrote one story anyone remembers.

    Flowers for Algernon, which he later expanded into a book (C) 1959 and 1966.

    Isaac Asimov wrote how he once made a speech at which Keyes was given an award for that story, or Asimov was talking about that story and he went on and on saying it was great and “How did he did it?”

    And Keyes said he’d also like to know how he did it, so he could do again.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  56. * How did he do it? How did he do it?

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  57. Comment by Simon Jester (a39672) — 9/3/2013 @ 12:19 am

    My favorite story was how Asimov intended his novella “The Martian Way” to be an indictment of McCarthyism…and nobody “got it.”

    I read it in 1970, and I got it. (now it could be a question how I even about McCarthyism, but I’d read a few things and managed to gather the flavor if it.

    I was surprised to read much later that Asimov intended that comparison, but not too surprised that nobody got it. He never said a word about it in the stiry, or anything similar. It was just the same method of proving things.

    Nowadays, “The Martian Way” could pass as a critique of radical environmentalism. I don’t know if Isaac Asimov ever noticed that.

    Whoops. Sort of like Louis B. Mayer was said to have opined: “You wanna send a message, use Western Union.”

    There is still some good SF out there, but I guess I am a fogey and enjoy the older stuff.

    Asimov’s novel “The Gods Themselves” remains my favorite of his, far more than his “Foundation” series.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  58. Whoops. Sort of like Louis B. Mayer was said to have opined: “You wanna send a message, use Western Union.”

    Of course Asimov was a little afraid to be explicit.

    I had the thought that was going on in that book sounded very much like McCarthyism.

    And I suppose you could think that Isaac Asimov had adapted it.

    That anyone would link irt back to McCarthyism, rather than just the general idea of certain kinds of arguments being wrong, woujld not occur to me. So as I said I was a little surprised that Isaac Asimov, intended people maybe to see this as something about McCarthyism.

    It was too subtle for that.

    There is still some good SF out there, but I guess I am a fogey and enjoy the older stuff.

    There was a very good story in the January/February 2013 issue of Analog. Time Out by Edward M. Lerner. I liked the paradoxes, and I’m not sure they are resolved in any logical way. II kind of don’t like som details, but the stry could be corrected.

    Asimov’s novel “The Gods Themselves” remains my favorite of his, far more than his “Foundation” serie s

    that ame out in 1973, an oasis in the desert of time when he was not writing science fiction.

    I didn’t like it. I liked much of the rest of his work.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  59. Sammy, you do know that you ate responding to your own comments?

    SPQR (768505)

  60. I was actually responding to something from Simon Jester (a39672) — 9/3/2013 @ 12:19 am that I mistakenly posted as my words at teh end of my previous post.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  61. I also sometimes correct my typos, and add something to it.

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  62. in 57 it should be:

    * now it could be a question how I even KNEW about McCarthyism.

    What I am going to do about this dropped-words prbblem?

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff63)

  63. ** face palm **

    SPQR (768505)

  64. ‘Parallel universes’ would explain so many of teh Sammy’s comments.

    Icy (3919ae)

  65. ‘Delusions of Grandeur’ would too, it would! Meds he must take, when nurse brings them! Help you, they will spammy!

    Yoda (35b482)

  66. Tell Jean Luc Picard to use spammy as secret weapon against Borg, I will! Assimilate him they will, go absolutely crazy and be destroyed they will!

    Yoda (35b482)

  67. We don’t have settlements on Venus, but we did have a corporate Senator and Governor, Corxine from the House of Goldman,

    narciso (3fec35)


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