Nadler Says NSA Not Exercising Breathtaking Powers After All, Or, Maybe Snowden Is Wrong!
Over the weekend I published a post noting that, according to a CNET article, Jerrold Nadler had essentially confirmed the worst about the NSA surveillance: individual agents were actually listening to calls based on an analyst’s say-so, and not based on a court order.
Now it appears that the CNET article was misleading. Nadler tells BuzzFeed: “I am pleased that the administration has reiterated that, as I have always believed, the NSA cannot listen to the content of Americans’ phone calls without a specific warrant.” Standard backtracking? You’d think so, but as
this Atlantic Wire piece explains, Nadler’s original claim was publicly made in an exchange with Robert Mueller, and the full video and transcript reveal that Nadler apparently interpreted “specific information” as meaning content when in fact it means metadata:
We heard precisely the opposite at the briefing the other day. We heard precisely that you could get specific information from that telephone simply based on an analyst deciding that and you didn’t need a new warrant.
Apparently Nadler interpreted this as an analyst listening to calls — but saying the analyst can get “specific information from that telephone” does not necessarily equate to “listening to calls.”
Back and forth goes the ping pong ball on how concerned we should be.
Meanwhile, don’t miss my exclusive from over the weekend suggesting the possibility (admittedly speculative at this point) that Snowden may be meeting his girlfriend in China or Hong Kong. The piece, which contains pictures of the girlfriend in various stages of undress for Important Journalistic Purposes, possibly helps explain why Snowden went to China. I’m surprised it hasn’t gotten more traction.
you can’t believe what the NSA says cause of how they lie and lie and lie
they have less credibility than anthony weiner even
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:30 amThe more the Guardian prints the more questions arise about how Snowden could have acquired this information and get a visa to HK without Big Brother noticing.
crazy (d60cb0) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:46 amI heard a caller to Bennett this morning point out that a warrant is needed if you want to use info in court
a warrant may have little to do with what they “can” do
which means as long as the capability is there…
but Google has the capability, one doesn’t need the NSA
fer cryin’ out loud, I look in my Spam file to see if something is there by mistake, and I get pop up ads for recipes using “Spam”…
I think I’m going to get a reagan.com email address and start using a different search engine…
then again, I bet NSA looks real close at reagan.com emails
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:48 amNSA systems automatically collect everything transmitted by wire or over the air (telephone metadata, content of conversations and texts, email, Internet site visits – posts and comments, financial transactions, educational records, legal issues, health records, everything, everything, everything) then run keyword searches to red flag individuals for a closer look, I suspect that was Ed Snowden’s job.
That’s why he said he had authority to tap into anyone’s phone or computer, it would be the next step if his red flag examination identified a person of interest.
ropelight (4d3971) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:50 amMeanwhile the IRS is accessing everyone’s 3rd-party data like it was theirs. But I guess they can be trusted not to abuse it.
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/17/2013 @ 8:16 amI think Nadler just misunderstood – he didn’t catch the meaning of “specific information”
That makes the most sense.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/17/2013 @ 8:41 am5. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/17/2013 @ 8:16 am
Meanwhile the IRS is accessing everyone’s 3rd-party data like it was theirs. But I guess they can be trusted not to abuse it.
They’re especially going to need to do this to catch people likely lying about their eligibility for health care subsidies.
This has been some time to check on Medicaid applications, although mostly for car registrations and mailing addresses.
http://www.agingcare.com/Questions/if-sell-car-does-Medicaid-take-money-152242.htm
The car is an exempt asset under Medicaid.
BUT if you sell the car, the $ you get from the sale becomes income. Her income needs to be spent on her needs or go towards payment for the NH under Medicaid rules.
Car registration is maintained by the state and the county tax assessor. The sale will eventually come up in the Medicaid system. Personally, I’d contact your mom’s Medicaid caseworker and tell them and see what they want you to do. A lot of this will depend on how much the car was sold for and what her asset and income was at the time of application. A few hundred $ might still have your mom under the asset limit but a few thousand $$ will not.
And Obama wants to expand Medicaid, so it will cover higher levels of income.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/17/2013 @ 8:45 amVery simply, all digital voice traffic is transferred over the backbone in one of two forms.
With your legacy land line its T1.
Over the nets its UDP over IP.
Some very simple signaling is embedded in T1 voice data. But the Telco has separate data channels to pass detailed information, like Caller Id, excluded caller lists etc. This would require multiple hardware connections.
ISDN more closely resembles the UDP IP protocol following. Packets are more formattable.
With UDP the freedom exists to mix information about the call in with the voice. Any one with access to one packet in the cloud has access to everything via listening to remaining packets.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:08 am6. I think morbidly obese Nadler got edumacated, at the stock yards.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:13 amIt doesn’t matter who or what Snowden is.
Clear limits on the goverment’s right to rifle through your papers, transactions don’t depend on him or anything that has or might yet take place.
It’s time to reaffirm those limits, because anything that allows a general access to anyone’s everything is intolerable, and access to anyones’ anything is POSSIBLE. Bar it by law, check it with oversight, and make violations cost. The test – If you or your next door neighbor can’t get legal access without subpoena, the government can’t without specific warrant or subpoena, and rubber-stamping or lying to get warrants should mean firing, disbarment, and prison time.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:18 am10. I agree. No matter how patriotic and well-meaning, people who can’t help themselves in making this about an X-Gen dweeb are just tools of the MCP(viz. Tron).
Which of your congress critters actually gets excepts of your letters, eventually?
http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2013/06/lindsey-graham-if-we-pander-to.html
Do you really expect this will all turn around to the good?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:38 amE-mail packets, which Secretary Mueller indicated some time ago, they have access to in realtime, are transferred by SMTP over IP.
So we have many redundant indications here that the NSA is Hoovering everything off data backbones, like the Telco industry’s SONET backbones, and using PRISM to filter the data in real time.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:47 amJeb Bush lol
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:56 amI don’t think it’s hard at all for a smooth talker on a mission to convince an influential individual in the senate, a congressional “watchdog” committee (or a judge) of something when the conversation is sprinkled with technical terms, is couched in national security espionage, and purposefully misdirects from the get-go. People in authority (and look at the ages of these elected people) do not want to appear dumb or like they don’t understand something. This is human nature and the NSA leadership with their cover of “this is all so top secret” easily play into that even if those being “briefed” try to ask questions. Do you honestly think Feinstein or McCain have a clue what is going on with these programs? Me neither.
elissa (42e91d) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:06 amLast month, they said that there was no massive collection of records from all Americans, so I guess I should believe that location is part of the “information” the analyst can get.
Neo (d1c681) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:13 amIn my own experience, I would estimate that over 90% of requests for user data have come from local police departments, not from the federal government. In 20 years I have probably been aware of a handful of requests from FBI. Mind you, these are providers of services that have millions of users and I am not aware of every single such request but my name was on the network registrations for these companies as a technical and administrative contact (if one were to do a WHOIS on the IP address range, my name would come up) so I did field the initial phone calls before I would direct them to the proper person to handle their needs. In nearly every case, the requester was a local municipal or county law enforcement entity. Sometimes it was a state agency, but rarely. I think I got two or three contacts from the federal level in 20 years and all of those were FBI.
The reason I say this is that the way the numbers being released by Facebook and MSN are being reported (or at least the headlines above the articles) are misleading. One might jump to the conclusion that Facebook got 30,000 requests from the federal government for information. I would be willing to bet that something close to 99% of those requests are from local law enforcement and only a relatively tiny portion from the federal government. But Facebook has more foreign users than any of the networks I worked with so their experience might be somewhat different.
The Larry Kudlow interview from his Saturday radio show with former Senator Kyl said it very succinctly when it comes to obtaining metadata. If you want to find a needle in a haystack, you first need a haystack. That metadata is the haystack. Also, reverse some of the reporting language in its logic and I think people get a better picture. Imagine rather than using the metadata to find someone doing something bad, think instead of it being used to eliminate people who aren’t doing anything wrong. They can quickly scan through and eliminate just about everyone and not waste any additional resources on them while leaving a more concentrated group of those who might bear looking into.
I will add one caveat to all of that though:
If NSA is the sole keeper of this metadata and the only ones who have access to it, I feel reasonably ok that it isn’t going to be abused. NSA has a lot of safeguards designed to prevent people perusing data on citizens out of idle curiosity. If, on the other hand, the Justice Department has access to this data and can perform queries any time it wants, the hairs on the back of my neck begin to stiffen a little.
I don’t trust partisans in the Justice Department not to use that information to look into the communications of political opponents and provide that information to some opposition research database at DNC headquarters in Chicago.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:18 amThe haystack is precisely what they cannot peruse at will to find a chance needle, and is intolerable to the non-needle straw that gets flung about and which is not withless straw, but property of free people with private lives. Develop some evidence that there is a specific needle of specific type up to specific stabby plans in the stack, first.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:31 amI get it. So they collect everything, including the content of the phone calls.
They just don’t look into the phone calls without a warrant. But if they get the warrant, they can look back through their collected data at every phone call you made that they chose to save. (Probably they do some data pruning which is why they had that celebrity’s phone call with his girlfriend but not his call to pick up his dry cleaning.)
Of course, analysts who have the authority to search the pile end up saving off copies of celebrity sex chats for their own personal amusement just like the people at the Fotomat who developed film in the olden days would keep copies of amusing or dirty pictures that came their way.
(Many years ago, my brother was a janitor for Southwestern Bell and showed me how you could take a handset to the wall of circuits and plug it in until you got a live one and listen in on someone’s conversation. Usually wasn’t worth the time or effort though.)
luagha (5cbe06) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:50 am#16, That’s the way to do it if you’re looking to identify a few terrorists, but if ferreting out TEA Party patriots or other critics of Obama’s Administration for (getting even) harassment by IRS, EPA, Homeland Security, or NAS, etc. then casting the widest possible net and culling out the more interesting specimens for additional examination is the only efficient way to go.
ropelight (4d3971) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:59 amThe DHS has identified which groups are associated with terrorism numerous times and the NSA is just keeping track of them – just not the MB, or CAIR, and any number of “real” terrorists and their enablers (which would mean eavesdropping on every Leftist in the country).
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:18 amA lot of people potentially have access to my phone bill information. I am not too worried about giving that to NSA. People don’t tend to get jobs at NSA because of political connections, but they do at Justice. If NSA wants to find out who is calling terrorists, I am fine with that. If DoJ wants to find out who is calling Tea Party Patriots, then I’m not.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:19 amBottom line is I trust NSA with my information more than I trust DHS or DoJ with it.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:20 amWell, it’s safe as long as their are no more NSA employees such as William Hamilton Martin and Bernon F. Mitchell – and some would say Edward Snowdon (TBD).
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:23 amMay I make an analogy between the USPS and the UPS. I note that the two in the nearest urban center are swapping packages for mail and vice versa. Seems they’ve independently recognized synergies.
One USPS employee I have occasion to return merchandise for the in-home shopper is a model of efficiency. Noting this, typing that, a couple of different stickers, a query about the mode of transport, another about the contents’ worth, a card swipe, pleasantries and I’m out of there.
At the UPS they just look at the label and say “You’re good to go”.
At UPS patrons open the door for you, we’re all so happy with no line at all.
Also you’re not bothered with ill-fitting kevlar.
So remind me again why we pay 60,000 NSA employees at $120K plus bennies, to save everything for the Stasi to solve a criminal case 2 years after the perp?
The idea that all this is sifted to prevent crime is resolutely denied, and all the evidence concurs, even tho that’s the putative justification.
Kafkaesque. No harm, no foul, aside from $Trillions$.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:10 pmthe only thing we know for sure is that the government is lying to us.
after that, the only safe stance is to assume the worst possible scenario, because if they weren’t doing something wrong, they wouldn’t feel the need to lie to begin with.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:19 pmThat’s not quite right. PRISM is as someone helpfully reminded me on another thread an analytical tool only. It’s not the filtering tool. Really it’s just a GUI. As a matter of fact some information about PRISM has been in the public domain for quite a while. A lot of companies and military services use it, not just NSA. For instance I came across this defense contractor’s site:
http://www.ewa-iit.com/content.asp?sectionID=47&contentID=187
It specifically mentions PRISM (Planning tool for Resource Integration, Synchronization, and Management) as one of the tools it uses when directly supporting various military commands and joint analyses centers.
The filtering takes place before the analyst ever can see the data. Indeed at NSA the filtering must take place before the analyst can even query the data. We know from prior reporting that email metadata goes into a database called MARINA, while telephone metadata goes into MAINWAY. MAINWAY is segregated by country and topic. So clearly the data must already have been filtered. Also, and I’m not sure if this is a database function or done by some associated system, the metadata also has to be assigned a score. If the score indicates that there’s a 51% chance or higher the metadata belongs to a non-US person (or if the metadata belongs to a person for which a FISA warrant has been issued) then the analyst can use the metadata. If not, the analyst can’t access the data on his own.
We know about these aspects of NSA’s operations based upon the reporting prompted by the earlier NSA whistleblowers. So I’m seeing less and less value in Snowden’s leaks. Sen Wyden trapped Clapper in a lie in March when Clapper denied NSA collected any data at all back in March. And Wyden had been trying to get Clapper to answer that question for a year.
The latter is to me the most infuriating part of the whole NSA domestic spying operation. For years Clapper and Alexander have been denying they’ve been collecting intelligence on US persons. But they clearly are. Clapper has publicly stated he has his own personal definition of what collection means as he tries to weasel himself out of his lie. That’s not the standard. “Targeting” Americans or “voyeuristically” reading American’s emails has nothing to do with whether or not the intelligence has been collected. There’s an established definiton for when information has been collected. It’s been collected when “an intelligence employee gathers and receives the
information in the course of official duties and the employee intends to use the
information for intelligence purposes. An employee must take an action that
demonstrates an intent to use or retain the information, such as producing an
intelligence information or incident report or adding the information to an intelligence
database.”
They’re retaining the data; they’re not discarding the information on US persons they don’t exploit but rather building a massive storage facility (actually they have several; it’s not just Utah) to store the data. That means for intelligence purposes it’s been collected; i.e. for use. No matter how many assurances they give us about judicial or legislative oversight I can not believe they’re not retaining it for use. It can not be cost effective to gather all this data as a counter-terrorism tool.
Steve57 (1ca8bb) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:29 pmYep.
Former Conservative (571124) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:41 pm“The DHS has identified which groups are associated with terrorism numerous times”
askeptic – Yes, aided by the very helpful SPLC. We have seen these lists before and they basically include a target list of the administration’s enemies.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:43 pmIsn’t it amazing how government, in all of its benevolence, keeps creating all these enemies that they need to keep track of.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/17/2013 @ 12:48 pmIn other abusive surveillance state news: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2343132/Cover–Father-horrified-TSA-worker-verbally-abuses-daughter-15-wearing-skimpy-clothing-airport.html#ixzz2WU5gnAWw
Sarahw (b0e533) — 6/17/2013 @ 2:41 pmIf any agency, more than the IRS, deserves to be disbanded, it is the TSA.
I can’t imagine how much better it would be if the airlines could form a consortium with their insurance carriers, to perform security.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/17/2013 @ 3:15 pmAfter all, they’re the ones who have skin in this game, and have a vested interest in keeping terrorists off of their planes, and satisfied paying customers on them.
Some very good questions here:
If it is time to reëxamine the struggle, then plainly, as Obama implied, it is time to reëxamine the means by which the struggle is waged. Calling for a national commission can be the last refuge of the high-mindedly perplexed, but this is one instance when such a commission—independent, amply funded, possessing subpoena power, and with a membership and a staff deeply versed in both national security and civil liberties—may be precisely what is needed. The N.S.A. programs represent a troubling increase in state power, even if—so far, and so far as we know—they have not occasioned a troubling increase in state wrongdoing. Obama’s “difficult questions” have a new urgency. Are the programs truly efficacious? Do they truly provide an extra margin of safety sufficient to justify the resources poured into them, to say nothing of the domestic and international anxieties they inevitably provoke? Is it wise to entrust so many of their activities to the employees of private companies, which are ultimately answerable not to the United States and its Constitution but to corporate stockholders? Did it make sense to construct an intelligence behemoth that apparently cannot operate without giving an enormous number of people—more than a million—top-secret security clearances? And in what ways, exactly, might an ill-intentioned yet formally law-abiding Administration use its powers for nefarious purposes? From what we know so far—well, we know far too little, still.
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2013/06/24/130624taco_talk_hertzberg
elissa (42e91d) — 6/17/2013 @ 3:23 pmThe double-talker in chief on ‘transparent’ secret programs.
Icy (c2b266) — 6/17/2013 @ 3:50 pmWhat makes this so frustrating, but not surprising, are all the conflicting statements speculating about the technical capabilities and legal authority of both the NSA and the FBI. What makes it all so frightening is that there is no entity that can be implicitly trusted to tell us the truth. Not the press, not the politicians, not the leaker, not the analysts – nobody. Jesus Christ and Mohammed could both part the heavens tomorrow and reveal the entire extent of all our intelligence programs and I still wouldn’t believe either of them. This administration has so damaged their credibility that it is impossible to envision how to sort out any of this and move forward in a constructive manner. God help us all.
Kyle Witek (3cbdb1) — 6/17/2013 @ 3:56 pm25. “That’s not quite right. PRISM is as someone helpfully reminded me on another thread an analytical tool only. It’s not the filtering tool.”
Uh, you are wasting my time 57. Just because a program has a GUI doesn’t mean its not a filter. What would you call something that sorts.
A jiggle table, a screen? Labview is a program engineers use to create virtual filters. Is it wrong to refer generally to said tools as filters? Must we always and everywhere call them CAD tools?
I call Instapundit a filter, he picks out interesting stories with a comment that may tickle my nose. Am I wrong? Usage, sonny boy.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:06 pmWhat I would suggest that NSA do is convene what amounts to a “war game” where they attempt to play out some sort of threatening scenario against the US. Invite legislative critics of NSA to participate as if in a leadership role in the US defensive posture. Allow them to actually experience the sort of problems that are faced, they would propose mock legislation to allow defensive measures to proceed.
Two things might be gained by this approach. The critics may gain a better understanding of the problem and NSA might gain an “out of the box” perspective of an approach to the problem they haven’t thought of before.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:19 pmPRISM is an analysis tool to the best of my knowledge. Imagine a large store of information, some of which is arriving in real time. You are interested in anything involving a certain person. You can get access to all information relating to that person. You can not, however, order that all phones in Topeka be tapped. NSA can’t do that in any case, FBI would have to order that.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:22 pm. OT,http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/17/top-us-general-in-libya-region-to-testify-about-fatal-benghazi-terror-attacks/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:27 pmHe didn’t get the memo;
”We might have caught him some other way,” Obama said. “We might have disrupted it because a New York cop saw he was suspicious. Maybe he turned out to be incompetent and the bomb didn’t go off. But at the margins we are increasing our chances of preventing a catastrophe like that through these programs,” he said…”
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:30 pm36. So it’s used to create filters. I misspoke in a most anally inciteful manner.
Using the word “can’t” where “may not” is clearly grammatically to be preferred annoys me.
Anyone else feeling trivial?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:31 pmWell, I would have put it that it’s used to create queries.
Steve57 (1ca8bb) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:51 pmBut perhaps that’s anally inciteful, too.
Steve57 (1ca8bb) — 6/17/2013 @ 6:56 pmI’ll again reference Nidal Hasan and the US military. Simply put, if ridiculous policymaking triggered by the lunacy of modern-day liberalism (ie, political correctness and hollow sentiments of 21st-century do-gooderism) has infected no less than the Department of Defense — and not just the IRS, or HUD, or the NEA — then anything is possible in today’s era. Anything can become quickly, easily corrupted by modern-day liberal ideology.
Moreover, the government employs millions of people who know that the do-your-own-thang, big-spending ethos of the left/Democrat Party is much friendlier to the padded, overdone nature of today’s government. They know that their salaries, vacation time, benefits, cushy pension plans and other perks are nurtured and enabled by a liberal philosophy, by liberal politicians, by liberal voters. So anything that threatens that will automatically be viewed warily and suspiciously by many people whose livelihood depends on THE government. (And I’m not even thinking of the millions of people in the private sector but who feed at the public dole.)
Another thing to keep in mind: a high percentage of trial lawyers is of the left. So a corrupt, left-leaning government combined with left-leaning ambulance chasers — with the two in a parasitic, symbiotic relationship — means that the system is intrinsically rigged against people of good will and common sense.
If the US becomes increasingly like a Mexico — or a big version of Detroit, Michigan — then I will not hesitate to say that I fear the government as much as I fear, for example, deranged terrorists from the Middle East. And I’ll have few qualms that I’m guilty of moral equivalency.
Mark (19cca2) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:05 pmYou can’t go wrong assuming that any claim made by a government official is horsecrap…
Blacque Jacques Shellacque (bed55d) — 6/17/2013 @ 7:47 pmNadler is an idiot. So is anyone who relies upon his unsupported statements on any subject. This isn’t news; the moron has been in Congress for 20 years and loves to be on television.
Everything stinks about this “whistleblower.” He leaks to known liar and America-hater Greenwald. His first contact with Greenwald was in February – right after he was hired. He must have taken the job to do what he did. Then he flees to Hong Kong, effectively putting himself under the control of the Red Chinese. Yeah, he’s all for open government and freedom, isn’t he?
Now guess who is calling him a hero? Alex Jones and Oliver Stone.
You have to be stupid to believe this stuff.
Estragon (19fa04) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:52 pmMr. Feets, for your reading pleasure:
http://freebeacon.com/fmr-nsa-whistleblower-calls-snowden-traitor/
You ought to read what this man endured after he filed his IG complaint against the domestic spying program and then resigned in prostest against a government run amok and violating the Constitution.
Various verbal threats and at least one FBI raid when he and his wife were held at gunpoint.
Question; are you going lump him in with all those piggy piggy liars who prostitute themselves for the NSA?
Steve57 (1ca8bb) — 6/17/2013 @ 9:55 pm*protest*
Steve57 (1ca8bb) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:00 pmA better nose for the story:
the-nsa-scandal-isnt-important-keep-your-eyes-on-the-irs-crimes-plot-where-the-criminality-lies
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:22 pmThis was where this earlier snippet came from;
http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/2013/06/17/nsa-leaker-says-congress-and-obama-admin-exaggerating-about-the-success-of-the-spying-programs/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:34 pmhe sounds very old school
it’s not being a traitor if you’re just kicking a fascist whorestate in the nuts
it’s all in good fun and for a good cause
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:36 pmWell no pikachu, Binney well understands how fickle the interest in intelligence whistleblowing can be,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:40 pmAgee’s DGI inspired rampage against the CIA, you know he dated a Brazilian ballerina as well, helped close off that cycle, with IAIA, after the Welch assassination,
I kinda saw his initial comment as a confession against the interests of his party, and thus more reputable, but on second thought you are clearly right.
I continue to think Snowden is simply doing what the Chinese want him to do. The Chinese were not a means to his ends of blowing the whistle with safety. The whistle blowing is the Chinese returning the favor for US criticism of Chinese human rights abuses. By my guess, this is a successful effort to make it easier for China to hurt her citizens.
Dustin (303dca) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:42 pmExactly, Dustin, what was the name of the soldier who defected to North Korea, I recall in the 50s,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:45 pmrevealing the Menwith Hill surveilance of Russian
security, as well as the Tokyo window on China, is part of the deal.
See they have one continous agenda, and they never stop pushing it;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/us-identifies-guantanamo-bay-detainees?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20main-3%20Main%20trailblock:Network%20front%20-%20main%20trailblock:Position2
no matter, how many AQ planners are at the periphery of Benghazi,the underwear bomber, et al,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:50 pmthis has nothing to do with “intelligence whistleblowing”
it has to do with asserting that governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
These piggy piggy NSA gestapo wannabes do NOT have my consent. They do not have Edward’s consent. They also probably do not have Alyssa Milano’s consent either.
That’s 0 for 3 by my count.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:53 pmAlong with General Ham;
Lt. Col. Steve “Hoot” Gibson and RADM Brian Losey are also scheduled to testify next Wednesday. Gibson is the Army lieutenant colonel who was in charge of a small group of special operators that, according to Deputy Chief of Mission Greg Hicks, received “stand down” orders after requesting to move from Tripoli to Benghazi on Sept. 12. RADM Brian Losey is the Special Operations Commander for Africa who is said to have administered those orders.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 10:58 pmMr. narciso my friend you do not understand.
Mr. Edward Snowden was not raised in a milieu where the whorepig government gets the benefit of the doubt. He learned this from the pre-fascist democrat party and its media such as the CNN and the NPR.
But he is NOT an “LIV” which is a label the hotair ones like to toss around in the comments a lot when talking about stupid food stampers. Rather comma he understands that this is not a little country what prizes liberty and justice for all, and he’s not having it.
I think he loves Americans very very much and I think he wants them to wake the “f” up as they say in the vernacular.
Me I stand with Edward.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:00 pmHe went to school in Arundel cty, in the back yard of Ft. Meade, that community college, services the NSA,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:05 pmShe didn’t defect to China, then again Chen the dissident is being forced from NYU;
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/06/17/exclusive_whistleblower_says_state_department_trying_to_bully_her_into_silence
narciso (3fec35) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:11 pmI went to school in texas which is the backyard of oklahoma which is the backyard of kansas which is the state where that fascist cooze Kathleen Sebelius was twice elected governor.
It makes you wonder what it’s all about.
I went to The Melt for lunch and man is that place overrated plus they had a special where for $1 you could have an ironic PBR with your nasty grilled-cheese-with-pickled-jalapenos.
I liked the s’mores thinger though. It’s not on the menu you have to know to ask. But make sure you have someone to split it with.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:17 pmI’m definitely on the stand with Edward Snowden train — a hero of the human race.
Former Conservative (1e6e8c) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:23 pmHey, nothing says “I love America” like running to China and telling the Chinese “we’re spying on on you.” And for an added fillip, letting Vlad know just how we’re exploiting his secure SATCOM with Medvedev.
A tribute to Snowden’s courage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJ0xR2_bQ
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:23 pmWithout Alyssa Milano’s consent you have nothing.
Icy (d71f66) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:28 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY
here is a youtube for you as well Mr. Steve
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:30 pmThanks Mr. Feets. It took a minute for the player to load and at first I’m thinking, “Aaw jeez, it’s a Rihanna video.” Because of all the advertising that loaded first.
But it wasn’t a Rihanna video. A fate crueler than death.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:43 pm“I’m definitely on the stand with Edward Snowden train — a hero of the human race.”
Former Conservative – Citizens of the World Unite!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/17/2013 @ 11:59 pmSure, because who needs the 4th amendment. If you’re not guilty of anything, nothing to worry about.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:27 amCitizens of the World don’t need no 4th Amendment to protect them from government tyranny. Freedom loving countries like Russia and China get along just fine without it.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:40 amPerhaps he should have told Americans to read some books already out on the subject rather than spill classified information with the identifying codewords. It seems that you admire him because you are not willing to pay attention to what is going on and the first twitterbug that comes along and spills secrets is an icon in your eyes.
vor2 (e1a38e) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:42 amBy your logic no person in the military or the government should be held accountable for revealing classified information – it is entirely up to the individual to decide if the classification is just. He could have gone the hard route by contacting his elected reps and telling them he had concerns about a government program and let them take the lead. But then he wouldn’t get the attention this method has brought him.
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. And yet we have the Fed Communication Commission.
What do they do? http://www.fcc.gov/what-we-do
From their website –
WHO, WHAT, when was this perversion authorised? In 1934, FDR.
Did they go to the states and have a vote to repeal the 1st amendment in 1933? Nope.
So WTF?
Makes me want to dig up Franklin’s crippled bones and beat the crap out of him. Despite him being dead 100 years.
How about the 2nd amendment? The perps who violated that one are still extant and walking amongst up. How do they not fear beatings in the street?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:56 amThe voice of unreason hathe spaken!
Icy (d71f66) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:03 am“Me I stand with
EdwardWolfking Awesomefox.”FTFY
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:12 amBeing Icy’s mentor is an honor I take seriously…
vor2 (e1a38e) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:27 amI call it Spring Festivus.
Our first festivity is to have a general airing of grievances.
Your turn.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:05 am“WHO, WHAT, when was this perversion authorised? In 1934, FDR. ”
Yes get rid of those oppressive licenses to use spectrum.
grant (6665a6) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:04 amIf Nadler says “X” on Monday, and “not-X” on Tuesday, it is likely that both are wrong.
JD (b63a52) — 6/18/2013 @ 6:51 amIn truthm it’s hard to be confident about any of these regime’s judgements;
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/17/astonishing-photos-the-muslim-brotherhood-has-turned-cairo-into-a-dystopia/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 6:57 amAs is the following story about the new governor of Luxor, where the massacres happened in ’97, from the same faction.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 7:01 amit’s hard to be confident about any of these regime’s judgements;
I still recall a liberal expressing a bit of glee when Mubarak became a casualty of the “Arab Spring.” Such people of the left remind me of all those voters who, closer to home, are responsible for the calamity that is the city of Detroit in 2013.
And now liberals like Nobel-Peace-prize-winning Barack Obama (not to mention fools in the Republican Party—hey, John McCain!) actually are dumb enough to believe that the current regime of Syria, while quite bad in its own right, should be overthrown by another bunch of baddies, the Al-Qaeda-backed rebels.
Insanity and idiocy become pervasive — whether in Egypt or the US — when common sense is choked and pummeled.
Mark (19cca2) — 6/18/2013 @ 7:13 amHouse Intelligence Committee hearings on NSA are live now. It’s here but I assume also at C-span.
http://live.reuters.com/Event/Politics
elissa (984a95) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:39 am“As is the following story about the new governor of Luxor, where the massacres happened in ’97, from the same faction.”
narciso – Since when do Las Vegas hotels have governors? Nobody tells me nothing.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:46 amdaleyrocks–there is no telling of the amount of confidence I feel that your esteemed congresswoman is on the “Intelligence” committee and is looking out for all of us.
elissa (984a95) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:54 amIntelligence and Shakowsky should never be used in the same sentence.
JD (1cc290) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:56 amhappyfeet @ 56
Edward Snowden is a classic libertarian who has willingly taken great risk to make his stand. If you support his ideology, then he is a hero.
Moreover, I question the extent of negative impact to our security by Snowden’s actions. Should anyone, American or anti-American, really be surprised that we would collect mega meta telephone data and do the PRISM surveillance? Of course not! So I don’t see these leaks as being major security breaches which would materially aid our enemies.
Although a courageous hero, Snowden, if apprehended, will have to have his day in court and will likely be punished, in order to discourage others from following on with more serious leaks. After all, at the very least he is alleged to have broken the security agreement which he signed prior.
Gramps2 (131b04) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:56 amYou want to switch with my rep, don’t answer that.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:00 am40. Now ‘query’ in SE vernacular presumes an indexed database, which I gather you and crosspatch are loathe to surrender.
IOW, the messages and sessions are all collated from their constituent packets and addressable by origin, destination, date and time, in order.
The ‘analyst’ needs not know anything technical about the details of access, simply be a user, criminologist, cryptographer, etc.
Alexander today said 50 attacks have been prevented since 9/11. Not certain what part the NSA played in each or in sum.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:05 amI see Perry is still a coward.
JD (1cc290) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:18 amAnd water is still wet.
Icy (4b6265) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:05 amthe-nsa-scandal-isnt-important-keep-your-eyes-on-the-irs-crimes-plot-where-the-criminality-lies
And Benghazi!
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:09 amIf Dereliction of Duty isn’t a “high crime or misdemeanor”, it should be because this President was certainly derelict in his duty that night
(though it is high enough that it will get you a BCD in the Corps).
Hearing basically describe fairly robust set of internal controls over ability to access metadata on individuals at NSA, but weakness in ability of System Administrator to steal or misappropriate information as Wolfking Awesomefox deliberately set out to do, harming America’s national security.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:09 amSimple translation of daleyspeak:
We don’t know how he did it!
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:11 am“Simple translation of daleyspeak:
We don’t know how he did it!”
askeptic – Not really. The point is that any NSA employee cannot willy nilly wiretap conversations or order up content of text messages or emails of Americans because they would be caught by controls in place, contrary to the claims of Wolfking Awesomefox. He merely asserted the ability to do it, but offered no proof of which I am aware.
What he stole was post sifted data, program descriptions, etc., unless somebody would like to provide a better description.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:29 amaskeptic – Simple clue to see if national security harmed. Look to see if there is a decline in the number of Jihadtube channels going forward.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:36 amIt makes all their chest-thumping assurances of loyal dedicated personnel, checks and balances, thorough training on privacy, and layers of oversight look rather silly when it is reported that there are over a million people with top security clearances– including this particular contract employee–and all it apparently seems to take to muff up the safety of whole world is one or two of them going off the reservation while no one notices.
elissa (984a95) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:36 amThis is what happens when Congress puts the Govt on auto-pilot (baseline budgeting) and spends 99.9% of its time raising campaign funds –
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:54 amThe Leviathan gets so big and intrusive that nobody has any idea what the person at the next desk is doing, or why.
“It makes all their chest-thumping assurances of loyal dedicated personnel, checks and balances, thorough training on privacy, and layers of oversight look rather silly when it is reported that there are over a million people with top security clearances”
elissa – No, no you don’t! Wait just one gosh darned minute!
You are not going to suggest that government has gotten too big or something are you?
That’s just crazy talk!!!!!!!!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:21 amI have about as much confidence in daley’s summaries as Sammy’s.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:30 amGuardian published a FISA order to which Snowden never would have had access.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:34 amA Catalogue of Journalistic Malfeasance The reporting on Edward Snowden has been dreadful. Is there a way to make it better?
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:36 amdaley @91, you are correct. But what’s more is I don’t get how he was able to bring in his own thumb drive to steal the data. I understand that systems administrators have to use them in the course of their jobs. But they’re generally prohibited precisely because of what Snowden is doing now. When I was in the Navy we had a hard and fast rule; no personal media or devices touched a classified system ever. In fact you couldn’t bring in personal media or devices into a SCIF.
How did Snowden get a thumb drive into and out of NSA? If the sysadmin types need to use thumb drives they can check out government owned devices, and check them back in. We had better tool control in Naval aviation apparently than NSA has on personnel security and its own hardware.
elissa, their security oversight remind me of this scene from Blazing Saddles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg-mozGsU
No getting around that!
I’m also just gobsmacked that Snowden got and kept a security clearance. His revelations about NSA’s programs against China and Russia show he’s opposed to everything NSA is doing. And prior to that CIA. It isn’t that he doesn’t think they shouldn’t be spying on Americans. He doesn’t think they should be spying at all, as he asserts when he posits that the Declaration of Independence is a statement of universal rights that apply to the whole world.
Yet he worked for spy agencies for years and must have not only been investigated initially but gone through one five year update. And nobody at CIA or NSA caught the fact Wolfking Awsomefox is morally opposed to spy agencies invading people’s privacy anywhere in the world?!?!
He’s totally what you do not want (which is my problem with his story about enlisting in the Army as a special forces candidate as well; how the hell did that happen).
There’s always a tension between timeliness and thoroughness when it comes to background checks. It can take up to two years depending on the backlog. But come on! This guy wasn’t really hiding his true feelings. At least not online.
It isn’t a matter of 20/20 hindsight. Companies hire people to check job candidates out online that apparently do a more thorough job than these federal clowns. Heck, I know of a judge here in Texas who does a better job of keeping tabs on attorneys who appear before her; don’t dare tell her you need a continuance because your father died after posting all those pictures of you partying for a week in Galveston.
I realize people who comment here think I focus too much on Snowden. But shouldn’t we, considering he’s the evidence that we can’t trust the administration spokesmen who try to convince us they have all this oversight and layers of safeguards in place?
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:38 am==You are not going to suggest that government has gotten too big or something are you?==
I dunno daleyrocks, the thought just came to me like bolt of lightening out of the blue. An epiphany I guess you could say.
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:39 amMore from Joshua Foust:
http://joshuafoust.com/nine-dashed-off-points-on-the-nsa-scandal/
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:39 am98. And the Boston Marathon, the Lanza murders,..
There seems to be a SOP, anyone seen the thing?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:43 amGee, what a concept: If they’re not collecting all of the data, then there’s less data for them to potentially steal/misuse.
Icy (4b6265) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:07 pm“I have about as much confidence in daley’s summaries as Sammy’s.”
gg – The feeling is mutual Mr. Still Waiting For That Imminent Global Financial Calamity.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:11 pmYes get rid of those oppressive licenses to use spectrum.
Comment by grant (6665a6) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:04 am
I don’t mind them issuing licenses for the use of spectrum, it’s just that they have to follow rather than circumvent the law.
If interference between radio stations is so terrible a problem, then you take the referendum to the States and amend the constitution.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:13 pmThen they can create as many obstacles to free speech as they like, but until then, they are pirates infesting my airwaves. With their self serving public funded commercials and endless moralizing.
I don’t want to be lectured to by a lawless thug.
“I realize people who comment here think I focus too much on Snowden. But shouldn’t we, considering he’s the evidence that we can’t trust the administration spokesmen who try to convince us they have all this oversight and layers of safeguards in place?”
Steve57 – I don’t think collusion can be ruled out.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:15 pmHere’s the interviews 57 culled an implication of treason from of the prior NSA whistleblowers.
They know that their experience necessitated Snowden’s exiting the country.
They believe what he says about his abilities, given that he had addresses and phone numbers.
They believe he was right in going public, that most of this was old news they had broken, that the government has had the technical power to do what it needs legally.
That the NSA is criminal.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:31 pmOopsie:
http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2428809
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:31 pm“I have about as much confidence in daley’s summaries as Sammy’s.”
The above is a typical substantive comment from gg.
They usually consist of name calling and cut and pastes of articles from other sources so that no thinking is involved.
It is a result of gg participating in too many ice sitting contests and getting his brains frost bitten.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:48 pm109. Still bitter Romany lost, ‘eh?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:53 pmWhich is of course a complete and utter lie.
If you want to blame the Washington Free Beacon for inaccurately excerpting the interview of Binney, you can try that. But I didn’t “cull” anything.
Here’s the link again so you can see gulrud is lying.
http://freebeacon.com/fmr-nsa-whistleblower-calls-snowden-traitor/
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:29 pm111. Oh, I am truly sorry. The FreeBeacon did the context snip. I am a bad boy, I didn’t use the F routine to find an original link, if any.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:41 pmFrankly I didn’t even notice the link to the USA Today interview that the Free Beacon excerpted.
Which might constitute a mistake, but it’s not outright dishonesty on par with claiming I “culled” anything from it when I quoted the WFB article.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/
I believe gulrud didn’t link to it because you’ll see Binney doesn’t imply anything. That the WFB accurately quoted him when he calls him a traitor.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:45 pmHow did Snowden get a thumb drive into and out of NSA?
Didn’t Snowden work for a contractor (Booz Allen Hamilton), at an off-site (not Ft. Meade) facility.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:46 pmTheir security might not be as thorough as one would find on a military installation.
Think about the two kids (The Falcon and The Snowman) back in the day at TRW in Redondo Beach hacking the CIA and selling the stuff to the Soviets.
There are just too many loose threads in this story, on top of the contradictions, and flat-out lies.
Apology accepted. I don’t see why I should be blamed for someone else’s editing.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:46 pmSo Snowden needn’t even have had a thumb disk on site. He could have copied what he needed on to a cloud repository and off again later.
Meanwhile Gen. Alexander testifies there is no way to tap into an ongoing call.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:51 pmI believe it was still an NSA facility, like the one he worked at in Japan which was on a military installation.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:52 pmDrake, Binney, and Wiebe, say;
Who are these people? I know I’ve heard these names before somewhere.
Drake, Binney, and Wiebe … Where was it?
It’ll come to me in a while. I’ll get back to you.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 1:55 pmAs long as we’re selectively quoting:
I encourage everyone to read the USA Today article. I would have agreed with everything in papertiger’s comment had Snowden stopped at revealing the domestic spying.
But then he’s the one who says you have to forget about all the other crap just so you can call Snowden a hero.
No dice.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:00 pm118. “Even when they get briefings, they still don’t understand.”
Sounds like salesmen. I spent a dozen years with a Telco OEM, for a period giving classes(badly) to salesforce and customers on equipment capabilities.
Still we had to pay penalties to break contracts when someone sold equipment incapable of touted features.
Roobs, ring any bells with you?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:03 pmBut then he’s the one who says you have to forget about all the other crap just so you can call Snowden a hero.
He is a hero, but you go ahead and keep complaining about the cut of his jib.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:07 pm119. I don’t know much about heroes. I jumped a number of times without ever pulling the fake ripcord.
I do know, with every day that passes, Snowden becomes less an issue.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:08 pmWhat will/could happen to Snowden?
I think the recent interview with Christopher Boyce (The Falcon) on his upcoming book is instructive.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:09 pmI could consider Snowden a hero if his disclosures were motivated by noble intentions. He says they were and maybe that’s true, but I think it’s also possible he had other motivations.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:10 pmMaybe if the NYT hadn’t scuttled the SWIFT program, we could track the money that he’s living on?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:13 pmTrue, askeptic, and wouldn’t that be ironic?
Of course, Snowden could also be a greedy traitor or he could be a gullible fool. It’s hard for me to consider either one a hero.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:27 pmOne has to be very, very sure he’s right before he decides to betray national secrets. The consequences of being wrong can be very, very damaging.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:29 pmSo, they say, but you would think it would have come to light earlier
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/18/194269/nsa-chief-spying-stopped-50-terrorist.html#.UcDOTJyXT4g
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:31 pmMotivations aside,I spent time on Sunday with some young adults–basically good people –but who are for the most part what one might consider apolitical or low info voters. I do not suggest that they are fully briefed on all the issues with respect to the NSA disclosures (how could they be when none of us are). But I can say that as a generation raised on technology, from their comments they are highly disturbed by the privacy issues and government snooping. It is the first time I think they’ve really considered that an all seeing, all powerful government may not always be their friend and that its agents may not be altogether honest and trustworthy. Remember this is an age group whose grasp of history is sorely lacking from their time in public schools.
Recent polls suggest my personal observation on Sunday may be more widespread and that younger people may be starting to get a wake up call–a clue– about the dangers of big government and its secrets:
That’s the clear conclusion of a new CNN/Opinion Research poll (PDF) showing the government-surveillance scandals taking a real toll on the president’s popularity—particularly with the younger voters who have been among his staunchest supporters. In just one month, support for the president among voters under age 30 plummeted by 17 points.
It had to start with something. We’ve been hoping it would happen, and it appears Snowdon may be the catalyst.
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:38 pmelissa, next time, tell the young guys that the Obama Administration will be tracking which porn sites they visit, and relaying that info to their future prospective employers as well as parents of girlfriends.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:43 pm130. That’s illegal. What is legal is if someone mentions that on Faceboo
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:45 pmelissa,
Good point. Maybe both young and old can be leery of government but in different ways. Snowden could be a hero to young people because he revealed what they consider a betrayal of trust. Simultaneously, he could be a traitor to others for betraying national secrets.
I guess it really is in the eye of the beholder but I still believe there are absolute truths. That’s why I care about Snowden’s real motivations and whether needlessly or indiscriminately revealed national secrets.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:47 pmSammy, did you not receive the memo ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:50 pmWe now live in the Age of Obama, where government has the power to do what “it” wants to do.
Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:31 pm
You know, I see that claim so much, it impresses me just about as much as “90% of the People are in favor of Universal Background Checks”.
If you (NSA/DHS/FBI/etc) want us to believe you, tell us who you arrested, where they are incarcerated, and when they planned to do what.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/18/2013 @ 2:52 pmIt would be interesting to know when the 50 plots were foiled. Were they spread evenly out among the last 12 years — so about 4 plots foiled a year? Were most plots in the first few years after 9/11, or during the Iraq War years, or since Obama was elected?
And if there have been a number of plots foiled since Obama’s election, how does that impact his recent claim that the global war on terror is over? What about the types of plots foiled: How great were the threats? Finally, has the surveillance program changed in the past 12 years — specifically, has it become more or less intrusive?
My guess is the government’s surveillance powers have expanded and the number of plots foiled has decreased, although some of the more recent plots may have been more serious threats. However, the number “50” without answers to some of these questions doesn’t tell us much.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:04 pmWell it’s interesting this plot, mentioned earlier didn’t come up back then;
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2517053/posts
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:13 pm“Meanwhile Gen. Alexander testifies there is no way to tap into an ongoing call.”
gg – That is not what I heard Alexander say today.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:30 pm“109. Still bitter Romany lost, ‘eh?
Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 12:53 pm”
You’re happy Obama won again, eh dingleberry?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:34 pm@ Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:04 pm
The way I heard it the NSA foiled plot total went from two < both of which were shown to have been foiled due to old fashion police stake out in Britain ] up to a couple dozen which the director could not confirm (because they were so hush hush secret, presumably)in testimony before congress.
Now it's 50. But I want to see the bodies.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:43 pmThank you for proving my point. As I said earlier, the real problem I have with people like you who call him a hero is you have to minimize or ignore the damage he’s doing and overinflate whatever good he did in order to fabricate Snowden into a hero.
Which is why I encourage everyone to read that USA Today article. There is absolutely nothing in it that contradicts what I’ve said in any of my comments on this blog from the start.
1. I was willing to withhold judgement at first, but I also said what would tip the scales would be what secrets he’d have to compromise to buy refuge abroad.
2. When he revealed our capabilities against China and Russia he decided the issue.
3. That he didn’t tell us anything new.
4. The really damning evidence was the FISA court order, and there’s no evidence Snowden provided that. In fact I don’t see how it would even be on any system to which he had access.
From the USA Today article:
Regarding points 1 % 2, Binney is the only one who even addresses that particular issue:
Point 3:
Point 4:
What part of “clearly treason” don’t you get, papertiger? Are all your heroes traitors?
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:48 pmMy heroes have always been cowboy traitors.
Icy (4b6265) — 6/18/2013 @ 3:52 pmSteve, why were the declarations of Binney and Wiebe just suspicions, where as Snowden’s are proof?
It’s because the proper channels and procedures are designed to protect the guilty.
Snowden broke this open. He brought the goods. Foodstamp can shit through a dozen more Binneys and Wiebes and it would never make a headline. But he has to answer to Snowden.
That’s the difference.
Eddie the Eagle just scooped up Obama’s house cat.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:00 pmMine, too. If Snowden had resigned from Booze, Allen, & Hamilton, rustled some cattle and headed for the border he’d be my hero.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:00 pmGary Gulrud,
Dude, daleyrocks is a solid conservative. He gets extra brownie points for being a conservative in the belly of the Machine in Chicago.
In fact, there are probably Machine Spies parked in a Chevy Caprice outside his house right now, attempting to determine how they can instruct Public Works to re-pave his street without paving directly in front of his house.
That being said, Romney would have been light years preferential to a second Gangster term. I realize the “libertarian” end of the spectrum is willing to allow perfection (“Romney’s not conservative enough !!1!) to be the enemy of the good, but here on planet earth, we are experiencing real consequences for The Obama, part II.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:03 pmAnd Steve is worried about what Obama is going to do with the stockpile of extra cat food, now that Snoopers has gone to kitty heaven.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:09 pmShorter papertiger:
“clearly treason” = “cut of his jib”
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:14 pmhttps://patterico.com/2013/06/09/leaker-identified-edward-snowden/comment-page-7/
Here you go, papertiger. The first time I mention Snowden is at #55. Start going through it so you can take me out of context.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:16 pmSteve, if you want to conduct services for the cat…
OK, I’ll stand by with my hat in hand.
but don’t ask me to berate the eagle for doing what eagles do.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:25 pmES – Thanks. Gary’s act is consistent, stale and lacking in imagination, but comparing me to Sammy was a very low blow.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:32 pmdaley, yeah, and we should also point out that this website’s archive is full of our friend Gary Gulrud’s predictions last summer and fall, about how Obama’s goose was going to be cooked for certain in November.
Now he has the gall to infer that anyone who thought Romney was going to win, was somehow being short-sighted.
It is sorta like the guy (Obama) who thought up sequestration, running around pointing fingers, saying, “Who came up with this crummy idea !?”
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:42 pmEagles rat out other eagles to the Russian bear?
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:44 pmBut don’t worry, papertiger, I’d never ask you to stop calling Snowden a hero. Another commenter once pointed out no one was asking me to change my opinion but also asked me what my big problem was with people who held the opposite view.
You’re exhibit A., papertiger. You’re willing to completely ignore treason in order to prop up your hero.
Keep it up. I like it when people on the opposite side prove my points for me.
And I think I’m pretty much done with you. Thanks for playing. Keep proving me right.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:48 pmBTW did you know that Obama has approved the taking of American Eagles?
Permit to Kill Bald Eagles Granted by Obama Administration
I want to call this unprecedented, but I don’t know.
Has any President ever authorized the killing of our national emblem before?
Recently, Al Gore has denounced Obama’s domestic surveillance program on twitter.
Coincidence?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:49 pmSo Binney, Drake and Wiebe are all whistleblowers who attempted to use official channels to correct what they viewed as NSA wrongdoing. They tried working within the NSA, the IG and Congressional Oversight and got no satisfaction.
Yet this is this first time any of them had seen a FISA Court opinion authorizing the metadata collection. They had no access to legal opinions or FISA court decisions when they made their decisions to go public with their concerns over NSA programs earlier. They made the decision that the NSA was violating the law and the constitution with their vast background of legal knowledge, much the same as Wolfking Awesomefox today, except Wolfking skipped the interim steps, undeterred by the fact that the government infrastructure was not reacting to claims of illegal activity with the alarm they had anticipated.
Do I have that right?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:50 pmES – Gary’s record on predictions is pretty close to Paul Krugman’s, so he’s got that going for him, which is nice.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 4:53 pmVote republican and you will get amnesty for all the criminal aliens, less border security, and lower wages for the working class. I voted for mittens and have voted for all of the above in trusting the pathetic right. Republicans are every bit the con artist the democrats are. Never dreamed my feelings for the republican party would be so hateful. Like losing your first love.
mg (31009b) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:25 pmDRJ thinks Eddie’s sleeping in the penthouse.
And a predator drones overhead. Waiting for the code words.
“The Eagle has landed.”
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:25 pmdaley @153, you don’t particularly need a law degree or access to FISA court rulings to know domestic spying violates the Constitution and the law. People in their position get annual intelligence oversight training that teaches them that spying on US persons anywhere in the world violates the Constitution and the law. It’s not a hard call to make.
So someone like Binney or Drake spend decades at NSA (in Drakes case in USAF intlel before joining NSA) and every year for all those decades they’re told they can’t collect, retain, or disseminate information about US persons. And then all of a sudden one year NSA starts doing exactly what they can’t do.
All you need to see that it wasn’t a hard call is look at how DNI Clapper answered Sen. Wyden last March when asked if NSA collects any type of data on Americans at all Clapper emphatically said “no.” In other words he flat lied, because as the leaked FISA document showed they do exactly that. They deliberately collect tons of data. Not inadvertently as Clapper claimed but deliberately.
Clapper later claimed when he was trying to weasel out of his lie that he doesn’t know what others mean when they say “collect,” but he has his own understanding of the definition of the word. That’s another lie. No one in intel can have their own understanding of the word. If you go to my comment #25 I quote the government’s definition of “collect” in terms of foreign intelligence gathering. Clapper got that definition hammered into his head every year, too, just like everyone else.
In other words, lie upon lie.
I don’t know if they tried going to Congress. I don’t know if they had the chance as the IG turned over their complaint to DoJ for prosecution.
From the article:
(Wiebe never addresses Snowden’s other treasonous acts; only Binney does. Had Snowden stopped with the domestic spying then no harm, no foul, but it’s too late for that.)
As I’ve said repeatedly, had I been in a similar situation I would have gone to a lawyer first. Step two in general would have been the IG, but I’ve caveated that by saying if I were in this situation at NSA I wouldn’t knowing how they treated these three whistleblowers. So if I were in Snowden’s shoes, through my attorney I would have contacted someone in Congress.
I’ve mentioned three candidates before, all publicly critical of NSA. Representatives Wyden and Udall, and Senator Paul. Of the three I would have probably chosen Paul because he’s not on the Senate intelligence committee and I would suspect any Congressman who is of being compromised. But you can only give it to the Congressman while he’ll have the appropriate clearance he won’t have anyone on his staff who is.
But Wiebe is right; the only hope Snowden had was for a Congressman to save his but. What Weibe doesn’t say is that he needed to go that route first. Snowden cooked his own goose by going public first, as there’s no whistleblower protection for going to the press. You have that protection only if you go to the IG (obviously not at NSA) or if you go to Congress. The executive branch can’t prohibit anyone from providing information from providing information to Congress.
Snowden really s*** the bed when he went to the press first, and then he nuked the koala when he exposed legitimate programs and compromised our foreign intelligence partners. As Binney noted, that’s when he went from whistleblower to traitor.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:32 pmGeharty tweetsl
So, to sum up, Snowden was surprised that the NSA spies on people, thinks Hong Kong is free, and that you can pet a phoenix.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:33 pmCan’t agree, mg. The Democrats are the con artists, while the ‘Pubs are their dupes. I remember Democratic operator and pollster Pat Cadell, who hates the current Democrats and their agenda, say that no matter how vile the Democrats are he could never be a Republican because he just can’t join a party that stupid.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:36 pm– I was trying not to upset the rhino brigade by calling them stupid.
mg (31009b) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:47 pmAs always Steve57, point taken.
Amazon drops Minnesota because of new internet tax.
Did they repeal the 1st amendment back when Roosevelt was in office?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:51 pmOr was it JFK?
I didn’t pay that close attention in school, and for that I apologize.
So, to sum up, Snowden was surprised that the NSA spies on people, thinks Hong Kong is free, and that you can pet a phoenix.
Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 5:33 pm
I have that comic book.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 6:04 pm161. Oh, oh. The missus will be devastated.
I have another prediction: Snowden will get a pardon some day, perhaps posthumously. He’s got nothing on traitors Obama, Holder, Clinton, Brennan, Bernanke,..
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 7:44 pm“daley @153, you don’t particularly need a law degree or access to FISA court rulings to know domestic spying violates the Constitution and the law. People in their position get annual intelligence oversight training that teaches them that spying on US persons anywhere in the world violates the Constitution and the law. It’s not a hard call to make.”
Steve57 – I understand most of that and it’s not my point, nor is Clapper’s lie to Congress. Spying on U.S. persons anywhere in the world does not violate the Constitution and the law if there is a warrant. It’s not a hard call to make.
What we heard today was the collection of metadata is supported by legal opinions. Any searching of the metadata at the individual level would require warrants. For someone to dispute the legality of the program they would need to have their own legal opinion or consider themselves the smartest people in the room. Having responsibility for a sizeable IT operation for a number of years, I vote the latter, especially since no action was taken on their attempts to blow the whistle.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 7:53 pm– I was trying not to upset the rhino brigade by calling them stupid.
mg – just start with the kook libertarian fringe that is aligned with the left and everything will be fine.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 7:58 pmTreason against this government is like speeding, or driving without a seat belt:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/06/obama-backed-syrian-jihadists-brutally-behead-and-execute-woman.html
Treason against Life itself is worth pissing about.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:07 pmJustice Department Fought to Conceal NSA’s Role in Terror Case From Defense Lawyers
When a senior FBI official told Congress the role the NSA’s secret surveillance apparatus played in a San Diego terror financing case today, nobody was more surprised to hear it than the defense attorney who fought a long and futile court battle to get exactly the same information while defending the case in court.
“His lawyers — who all have security clearances — we can’t learn about it until it’s to the government’s tactical advantage politically to disclose it,” says New York attorney Joshua Dratel. “National security is about keeping illegal conduct concealed from the American public until you’re forced to justify it because someone ratted you out.”
…..
By coincidence, Dratel also represents Sabirhan Hasanoff, who was also cited by Joyce in a surveillance success story. Hasanoff supposedly plotted to blow up the New York Stock Exchange. Hasanoff has pleaded guilty to providing material support to terrorists. But the government’s own sentencing memorandum shows that the defendants called off a proposed plot on their own, without any involvement from federal authorities, and over a year before being arrested.
“There was no plot,” says Dratel. “There was one guy was asked to check out a tourist site downtown. It was a year and a half before they arrested Hasanoff. So if they thought it was really a plot, what were they doing letting him run around?”
The sentencing memorandum in that case, dated May 31, confirms Dratel’s statements. “Hasanoff relayed that the New York Stock Exchange was surrounded by approximately four streets that were blocked off from vehicular traffic and that someone would have to walk to the building. The Doctor [an undisclosed high-ranking al-Qaida operative] revealed that, although the information provided by Hasanoff could be used by someone who wanted to do an operation, he was not satisfied with the report, and he accordingly disposed of it.”
“This casts suspicion on everything they say about these programs, and the efficacy of these programs,” says Dratel. “Their notion of transparency is so tired. They have to stop lying to everybody.”
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-defense-lawyers/
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:14 pmThey have to stop lying to everybody.
yes they have to stop lying to everybody it’s just so tacky
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:26 pmDRJ, with all respect I don’t see how anyone can think it’s possible that his motives are noble.
I won’t go back to his Army career (I’m still not buying any part of his story) except to note what Snowden said about it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
So the federal government disillusioned Wolfking Awesomefox once because they didn’t live up to his noble ideals.
Then skipping over some other obvious BS we get to:
Now Wolfking Awesomefox has been let down a second time by our scummy government’s failure to live up to his noble purity. To the extent that he considered exposing the government’s secret moral failings. So what does St. Edward of Hong Kong do? That’s right! gets another job with a spy agency.
This one conducts electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes.
Of course he excuses it:
Well that explains it; he thought Obama would rein in the policies he found objectionable.
But hold on, now we find he objects to all of NSA’s policies. The very reason for NSA’s existence is an affront to his high moral standards:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
Really? Can we believe a word this man says?
And how is he living in Hong Kong? It’s a very expensive city. In order to get in you have to prove you have sufficient funds to live without working locally, and another problem Eddie has is they only let tourists in for 90 days. Oh, and Eddie had to buy a ticket to prove he has plans to leave.
http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1136.html
I always thought the feds wouldn’t start extradition proceedings against him. For two reasons. If they do then the Hong Kong PD will have to take him into custody along with his laptops because that’s where the evidence the feds will have use against him lies. The Hong Kong PD has an absolute obligation to share any information pertaining to national security with Beijing. It is after all very much a part of China (and more and more every passing day).
Second, by now the Feds will know his travel plans. They’ll know how long he planned to stay in Hong Kong and where the next leg of his journey is supposed to take him. Of course it’s absurd to think he’ll actually use that ticket. I’m sure slick Eddie of the mad tradekraft skillz will attempt to go elsewhere. But it’s also absurd to believe Hong Kong immigration would have let him in if he told them he planned to stay for 90 days unless he had the cash on hand and a ticket for that date. Which I don’t think is possible as that kind of cash would have attracted notice. I’ve never tried it but I don’t think flashing credit cards or ATM cards would work because how does Hong Kong immigration know you aren’t maxed out to your eyeballs or that your balances are 0?
(Full disclosure: I once said I thought the Feds would cancel his cards and freeze his accounts. But after reflection I don’t think they can do the former and I don’t think they would do the latter because that would substantiate any fears he could claim in an asylum request.)
So now here’s Eddie’s problem. He’s already used up a third of his maximum limit. More if he declared he was staying for a shorter period of time. If the US doesn’t request his extradition before his time is up, what does he do? He can request asylum, but on what basis? The DoJ liaison officer can simply tell the Hong Kong government it hasn’t even decided if they’ll prosecute him.
I don’t see the Hong Kong immigration department approving his application to stay longer. The Hong Kong government must view him as a hot potato they’d like to toss to someone else.
So if Eddie has to go, to where? The Feds will know immediately. And anywhere else he could go without a visa (he’s stated he didn’t want to alert the feds to his travel plans by applying for one) would similarly require him to show he has the funds to cover the period of his stay as well as a return or follow-on ticket.
The bottom line is that Wolfking Awesomefox had to have planned to betray the country from get go. He will run out of money and he will run out of credit. The only thing he has to trade for refuge are those secrets in those laptops. And no country will give him that refuge if the only secrets he has reveal the government violated it’s own citizens constitutional rights. He’ll have to sweeten the pot. How else can he survive if he doesn’t trade the only valuable asset he has?
If he already has begun dealing with China, then everything I said earlier about Hong Kong is off.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:27 pmSo do you think he still has his laptops Steve? I do not. I believe someone else or several someone elses somewhere else far from him have them and/or all the data. He said “the truth” will come out whether he is dead or alive. I believe he means that.
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:35 pmDespite everything I bet those Congresscritters on the two intelligence committees still believe everything they’re hearing from Clapper, Alexander, et al.
That’s why I said the other day if I wanted to be an NSA whistleblower I’d go to Rand Paul because he’s not on the Senate Intelligence Committee and thus wouldn’t be tainted.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:43 pmCrikey, you can’t believe anyone in this scrum,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/18/2013 @ 8:46 pmI don’t know how much of the data he stole from NSA if any are on those four laptops but that isn’t necessarily what I meant by evidence against him.
They’ll need those laptops though, to make the case against him. Somehow, someway he’ll need to prove his bonafides to whatever government where ever and that he does have something valuable to trade. No matter if that data is physically on any data device in his possession or not.
And yes, I do think he still has those laptops as I don’t think any intel agency would be so crude as to steal them. If he doesn’t have them then he’s making a deal in Hong Kong.
I think he’s delustional in many ways, but not so delusional that he thinks he can fake out the Feds by claiming to be in Hong Kong when he went through passport control somewhere else.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:01 pmWhoa. Who (besides you) said anything about an intel agency crudely stealing them?? Who suggested he is trying to “fake out” the feds by only “claiming” to be in Hong Kong? I do think it’s possible, likely even, that he turned over the data and laptops voluntarily (gave them away) to someone he believed was trustworthy before he publicly surfaced in HK, though.
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:15 pmThis article posits a plausible alternate scenario for why Edward fled, which makes as much sense as anything else that’s been printed. It neither heroizes him nor villianizes him. But it may explain his actions.
……None of this is to say that we know Snowden hasn’t been working for China from the beginning. It would be odd, considering double agents don’t usually out themselves, and, as he mentions in his Guardian live chat, he could have taken a direct flight to Beijing. But based on the little information we have, the unproven accusation that he is a spy is egregious. These are not the kinds of things you say about someone without some actual proof—and leaving America is not proof. Considering the U.S. government’s history of trashing whistleblowers, we should treat all accusations about Snowden’s motives or purported masters with skepticism until real evidence is presented.
It’s safe to say Snowden isn’t helping his case. While it may not be spying, leaking information to journalists about U.S. activity against China and Russia is reprehensible. Yes, much of what he leaked was already widely suspected, and some even reported in the media. But Snowden gave two of the worst governments in the world ammunition to beat up on the U.S. Regardless of his legitimate beef with the American national security state, there is simply no moral equivalency between the U.S. government and the governments of Russia and China. It would be interesting to know if Snowden believes there is.
When asked today in a live Q&A at the Guardian website if he was or would be giving secrets to the Chinese in exchange for asylum, he initially mocked the question. When pressed, he said “no.” For everyone’s sake, let’s hope that’s true.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/18/without-waiting-for-proof-edward-snowden-foes-begin-spreading-smears.html
elissa (3efc9c) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:40 pmelissa, I never said you even implied anything about an intel agency crudely stealing them. Nor did I say you think he is trying to fake out anyone by claiming he was in Hong Kong when he wasn’t.
I was just trying to cover all the bases because the only way he doesn’t have the laptops is if he voluntarily gave them to someone, and I’ve seen others say they don’t think he’s really in Hong Kong.
As far as the secrets on the laptops (perhaps only one of the four, several, or all for redundancy), those secrets may not include NSA’s but they will include Snowden’s. The only way he can prove he’s valuable, and the only way for the US to extradite him, is if he has evidence he is the original source of the NSA leaks.
I think it’s a dead certainty that others are in possession of the data already. And no doubt several others. Here’s what the WaPo published on the 9th.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/code-name-verax-snowden-in-exchanges-with-post-reporter-made-clear-he-knew-risks/2013/06/09/c9a25b54-d14c-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story_1.html
He probably has several keys for several datasets as insurance.
I don’t see the value of him giving the laptops to trusted friends if all they need is the data. Actually I don’t really think he’d need to hand over the laptops to a foreign government either although they might demand that as a condition.
Just that whatever evidence that he’s the source is somewhere in there.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:41 pmThat may be true. But he does plan to give up information to some foreign government in exchange for refuge.
From the same WaPo article.
Despite his protests otherwise, he intends to prove he’s a valuable intelligence asset to somebody in exchange for asylum.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:46 pmAlso from the same WaPo article. I just had to point this out because it falls into the same “can you believe this guy’s crap?” column that forces me to question everything about him including his claim to have been an 18X and to have broken both legs, put on med hold, healed, cleared by medical, and either medically or administratively discharged between June and September.
He has a rich fantasy life. He was the IT guy.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 9:54 pmand then Edward saves america the end
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:12 pmIn order to be pardoned, does not one need to be convicted of something first?
Icy (4b6265) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:27 pmMy name is not Edward, I am Wolfking Awesomefox.
Behold my power and tremble!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:28 pmyou mock
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:31 pmWolfking Awesomefox, international man of mystery and former spy, isn’t the only one who leads a rich fantasy life I see.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 10:55 pmNope.
http://www.examiner.com/article/speech-gerald-ford-pardons-richard-nixon
This is exactly what every member Obama’s cabinet is banking on. Eric Holder will get his, but Snowden won’t. You see, you have to commit crimes against some combination of the Constitution, laws, and people of the United States that make President Prom Queen look good to get your get out of jail free card. And Snowden, whatever his other faults, made Tiger Beat look bad.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:23 pmsimply no moral equivalency between the U.S. government and the governments of Russia and China.
Well a few weeks ago Kristan could say that, but current events . Tipping the scales.
I love Kristen Powers. You left out all the good stuff.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/18/2013 @ 11:37 pm167. I think this obsessing about Snowden is getting just a bit spooky, unhinged.
One rule on motivation I’ve found reliable: A man fears most from without a particular evil that resides within.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/19/2013 @ 1:44 am182. Humor and daley are strangers, living in alternate dimensions, speaking unrelated languages.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/19/2013 @ 1:49 am185. Like she’s yummy and not particulary discriminating in the men with which she consorts.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/19/2013 @ 1:56 amWell she married a Copt, so she has developed some understanding, but is naive in some parts.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/19/2013 @ 3:45 am‘we’re through the looking glass’
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/18/twa-flight-800-investigators-break-silence-in-new-documentary-claim-original/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/19/2013 @ 3:56 amThe kook left and the rino brigade are making backdoor deals daily, daleyrocks.
mg (31009b) — 6/19/2013 @ 4:28 ammg – Drink your Ovaltine grandpa.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/19/2013 @ 8:52 amgary @186, nice try at long-range psychoanalysis. It was inaccurate, though. Let me show you how it’s done.
People keep saying Snowden isn’t the story. Snowden himself says he doesn’t want to be the story. But then he keeps making himself a story. He exemplifies what William Safire called “ostentatious self-effacement.” That’s a form of self-aggrandizement in which someone pretends they really want to remain anonymous while simultaneously getting the fame they seek. Safire noticed that becoming famous for wanting to be anonymous seemed to work better than other more blatant forms of self-aggrandizement.
It’s really too bad Snowden couldn’t just leak about NSA’s warrantless domestic surveillance and then take a stab at actually remaining anonymous, instead of outing himself and publicly running his yap about his desire for anonymity while making sure his name is associated with every new press revelation about goings on at NSA or an ally’s intelligence service that have nothing to do with spying on Americans. You know, follow William Binney’s advice and avoid actions that are “clearly treasonous.” Because the story should be NSA’s warrantless domestic spying, and the focus should be putting an end to it.
Wolfking Awesomefox unfortunately clearly wants a new nickname; Fatal Distraction. He can’t follow Binney’s advice for two reasons.
1.He can’t; he needs to eat.
2.He likes the attention he’s getting for saying he hates the attention.
Prediction: this guy intends to do whatever damage he needs to do to compete with what even he claims should be the story.
Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/19/2013 @ 10:11 amLooks like faux TEA Party fave, Roobs, is going to be primaried by conservatives.
By that time IL will be in receivership. When the new pension accounting rules go into effect CA and IL will be pawning everything they own.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/19/2013 @ 2:54 pmObama isn’t going to pardon any prominent officials. He would disgrace himself, and he doesn’t want to be disgraced. Still less would he give ageneral pardon.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/19/2013 @ 3:31 pmSpeaking of clubs handed to foreigners here’s Eich bin ein snoop.
http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/heh-obama-greeted-with-yes-we-scan-protest-in-germany/
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/19/2013 @ 9:02 pmpapertiger–By all accounts I’ve seen it was not a triumphant trip to Berlin for our Barry this time.
elissa (7f92c3) — 6/19/2013 @ 9:04 pmIt was like Spinal Tap, with the falling stone slab.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/19/2013 @ 9:05 pmThe Germans probably feel like idiots for making such a big deal over him the first time.
elissa (7f92c3) — 6/19/2013 @ 9:09 pmyeah. 200,000 was pared down to just a fussy handful, and Obama the light bringer gave his lecture on global warming behind a bullet proof glass, which interfered with the teleprompter. Glare from the sun knocked him off his game, says Chris Matthews.
As long as Matthews is in town, I guess Obama doesn’t have to buy a dog.
On twitter they’re calling him President Fop Sweat, because he was sweating bullets.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/20/2013 @ 2:21 amWe even had an impromtu presidential wet t-shirt contest. Obama wears old man tank tees to match his momjeans.
http://twitchy.com/2013/06/19/no-marines-to-fan-him-obama-drips-with-historic-sweat-during-berlin-speech-pics/
Weak Underwhelming Address From A Floundering President – UK Telegraph
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