The Kaitlyn Hunt Case
I am somewhat out of the news loop and have not closely followed the case of Kaitlyn Hunt, who is facing charges in Florida for a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old girl. But people seem interested in the case, so I figured I would give you a thread to discuss it.
Emily Bazelon says: “It’s hard for me to see how you can take the homophobia out of this case.” But she seems to provide no evidence to support that statement. Is there any genuine reason to believe this is about gay rights in any way? I don’t see it.
Neither should any other rational person. Boiling down the “it’s because they hate Kate” argument — “We’re gay, we can f**k anything we want”.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 7:46 amAs far as I have been able to tell, Hunt’s parents are trying to make it seem to be simply a case of homophobia to save their daughter from the consequences of her bad decisions. They started out claiming that there was only a two year difference between the girls instead of nearly four, and when the truth came out, they switched tactics.
Since Ms. Hunt’s lawyer let her turn down a plea deal which any guy in the same situation with a 14yo girl would have jumped at, I think when it gets to court there is a very good chance that they will find that their defensive tactics of making it all about homophobia and “hate” will turn and bite them on the tuchus. Hard.
LibraryGryffon (06c781) — 5/28/2013 @ 7:52 amClaiming that those who want the law enforced are “anti-gay” is the just gay mafia version of a liberal shouting “racist”.
Any white, heterosexual male aged 18 can tell you that the gays are inserting a non-existent “homophobia” charge IN this case, given they are prosecuted when accused and charged with the same crime. They are doing so to escape accountability.
SGT Ted (0ffd9b) — 5/28/2013 @ 7:56 amIt’s about giving gays MORE rights. Apparently, lots of people think they should be able to ignore age-of-consent laws.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:04 amOFFS, does anyone think that sending this girl to prison and basically destroying her life for the “crime” of dating her classmate is going to leave anyone better off? Who, exactly? Who would that help?
(And yes, I’d ask the same question regardless of the genders of the people involved.)
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:11 amCTD – no. But the law should be enforced equally.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:13 amJD,
Sometimes the law is an ass and should not be enforced at all, because it’s evil.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:17 amWhen you’re 18, the 14 year olds are off limits. Period. And please don’t bore me with the “We’re in love” defense. Their first sexual encounter was in a bathroom. In school.
ukuleledave (c59551) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:21 amCTD – then the consent laws should be changed.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:32 amCTD – Do you think the crime being punished is “dating her classmate”? Seriously?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:34 amukuleledave;
Having a law that makes sexual contact between two persons in the same school a serious offense is asinine. Is the older girl in the wrong? Sure. Is she in the wrong no matter what her sexual orientation? Sure. Is she on the same moral level as a adult who molests a toddler? Oh, hell, no!
C. S. P. Schofield (adb9dd) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:37 amYou know why I’m skeptical the state will do the right thing;
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-stay-hearing-20130528,0,1951849.story
narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:38 amYou really think every HS senior who gets to third base with a freshman deserves prison time? Really?
That they are “sex offenders” who will be essentially unemployable for the rest of their lives (and therefore living off of taxpayer largess)?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:39 amCTD. Your argument makes sense. Except. There need not be one word changed when the penalty is something else. Something less severe. And less severe than that. And less severe than that.
Richard Aubrey (6c93a4) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:43 amAnd a finger-haking from the judge would generate the same argument from you.
We’re not ignorant and we have seen this before.
Age of consent laws came to be as a brickbat to be used by angry parents of young girls who were lured into bed by older men. When they are used against teens dating teens (gay or straight), it rankles somewhat.
That said, if the courts make exception for a woman who broke consent law by having sex with a young girl but not a man under similar circumstances, isn’t that gender discrimination?
Hadlowe (33cc56) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:44 am“Their first sexual encounter was in a bathroom. In school.”
Not only do I not want either of my children’s first sexual experiences to be in a school toilet stall, I don’t want to have to worry about them walking in on that either.
“The “crime” of dating her classmate”. Last I checked, fingering your girlfriend in the school bathroom is not a required part of dating. If they had simply hung out together, and maybe kissed a bit, this wouldn’t be an issue. If they had kept the sexual aspect more private, i.e. NOT in a public toilet, it would be perhaps a little less of an issue, and easier to believe that both girls were equally “in love”. That the older girl was doing stuff she knew she shouldn’t, and that she had been warned off several times by the other girl’s parents suggests that she is either not very bright, and that if not this, something else quite soon would have “ruined her life”, or she is a budding socio/psychopath, her life is already “ruined”, and she needs to be stopped before she “ruins” anyone else’s.
LibraryGryffon (06c781) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:46 amCTD –
It’s irrelevant what we think about whether they get prison time. Their contact was illegal in the eyes of the law. The judge can make ruling on punishment. To say that it wasn’t illegal would be giving gays more rights. That’s the problem.
The fact that it’s illegal at all is a different question to be addressed by the legislature.
SB (8a4846) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:48 amIf you don’t want law enforcement (or a pissed off dad with a gun) all up in your business, avoid doinking 14 year olds when you are 18.
Men have known this for generations. Cute lesbians don’t get a pass, nor do they deserve one.
CTD, I chased 18 year olds away from my 14 year old step daughter with the threat of prison or gunfire. Why? Because she was unequipped to handle the consequences of a sexual relationship at 14 and the guys were just looking for easy pussy, despite their claims of “being in LOOOOOVE”. Your argument is unconvincing and ignorant.
SGT Ted (0ffd9b) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:48 am“You really think every HS senior who gets to third base with a freshman deserves prison time? Really?”
CTD – Did I say that? No I really didn’t, but it is nice for you to acknowledge that the two were in fact not classmates and the relationship was not just dating.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:52 amGreetings:
I so agree, we need to show or sexual dysfunctionals more consideration.
We have long passed the time when communal showers are enough reparation for the years of biased bias that those folks have suffered. I think that dating team members should be mandatory in order to help youngsters, say 12 and up, break through the discriminatory discriminations that have been inflicted on them by their indoctrinating parents and churches.
Enough I say. More homosex is the solution. Forward !!!
11B40 (7512e1) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:52 amAll over Florida and the rest of the country young men who got in trouble with some young girl and became registered sex offenders are watching this case very closely.
glenn (647d76) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:54 amI think you have it right. There’s more from the parents. What’s wrong with parents wanting their daughter to wait until the age of consent or horror of horrors to a far left wing liberal, wait until marriage? There are many good reasons to wait until marriage, especially if she has children. Those who wait have longer marriages, higher satisfaction with sex, and children with fewer problems.
CTD, Why do you want this 14 year old harm? Why do you believe the law should be ignored when the law is there to protect the young? Don’t you believe the minors should be protected?
Tanny O'Haley (2ece1d) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:58 amBtw, I have never been on a date in a high school bathroom stall, but that’s just me.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:59 amCTD – Let’s not forget she was offered a plea that would have kept her out of prison and off the sex offender registry, and she turned it down. It is her choice to chance going to prison. She doesn’t want a felony because she heard about “some guy” who was offered a plea that was a misdemeanor. Well “some guy” didn’t harbor and abet a minor runaway and have sex with her while doing it, and didn’t have sex with a minor in the bathroom at school on more than one occasion. Those are what they call aggravating circumstances, and the plea was generous.
Truth Seeker (a6d8ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:00 amIt was somwhat more than a senior “dating” a freshman.
The senior was a couple months older than 18 when they met.
The “dating” included finger fucking, cunnilingus and insertion of a dildo. Both to each other.
To call it “dating” is being disingenuous to an extreme.
You can read the police report here.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/142642135/Kaitlyn-Hunt-Redacted-Affidavit-Redacted
As far as I know, Kate, the 18 year old, does not deny any of it.
John Henry
John Henry (72dd20) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:06 amJudging from the pics of Kaitlyn posted on Google I’m guessing she’s looking for a career as a girl next door model.
glenn (647d76) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:09 am“Why do you believe the law should be ignored when the law is there to protect the young?”
Tanny O’Haley – Our expectations are clearly way too high if we expect recent generations to understand and to weigh what is right versus what is wrong versus what feels good and face the consequences of poor decision making. The outrage over Kaitlyn’s poor decision making during and after her toilet stall romance are a perfect example.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:12 amProlly NSFW, but The Other Mccain quotes this which makes you wonder what kind of supervision, or lack thereof, was going on at the hunt abode,
Another aggravating circumstance involves the night of Jan. 4, 2013, which is described in the affidavit (“Smith” is the 14-year-old) :
[Smith] told [Sheriff’s Department Detective Jeremy Shepherd] that there was one occasion that she ran away from home in January of 2013. [Detective Shepherd] researched this and learned that [Smith] ran away on January 4, 2013. [Smith] stated that Kaitlyn picked her up and took [Smith] back to Kaitlyn’s house at 231 Stony Point Drive, Sebastian, Florida. That night, while in Kaitlyn’s bedroom, [Smith] and Kaitlyn put their fingers inside of each other’s vaginas, put their mouths on each other’s vaginas, and both of them used a vibrator on each other to insert it in each other’s vaginas. . . .
Gazzer (0efe8c) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:28 amThe victim’s parents woke up the next day and thought their daughter had been kidnapped.
What “harm” are you talking about? Who was harmed? How? Would that alleged “harm” have somehow evaporated into the either had her girlfriend been a 17 year old instead of 18? What kind of sense does that make?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:39 amOne of the best Summer jobs I had growing up in both high school and in college was that of a lifeguard at a couple of upscale private facilities. One warning I took to heart was – Stay Away From The Jailbait.
This is not rocket surgery.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:40 amActually, I thought once the facts were clear we were talking about an 18 yo and a 14 yo, there was no need for any more discussion, except to point out it should be obvious, and if it isn’t obvious to someone, then no amount of argument should make any difference.
And Hunt’s parents did not do their daughter any favor publicising her “cause”.
When one exercises one’s freedom, one needs to be prepared to take responsibility for the consequences, otherwise we have a nation filled with people who think they ought to be given whatever they want (hint, hint).
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:42 amYou want to treat a 14 yo like an emancipated minor who can make his/her own decisions about sexual behavior?
Fine, then you take responsibility for the 14 yo’s financial and emotional support.
Find a way the 18 yo can do that without being in jail.
I fail to see what this has to do with anything. So she’s not super-bright? Maybe made some bad choices? So what? This is a freakin’ high school girl we’re talking about!
And now she’s “harboring and abetting a minor runaway”? Do you people even listen to yourselves?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:43 amI take a much less harsh line against the abuses of the 18 year old against the 14 year old.
I think the contact rose to the level of criminal but a misdedemeanor should suffice.
This is what the “hold-out” has been on the part of the older girl and her parents, and its reasonable in the totality of the circumstances.
I have no need to demand girls and boys be viewed perfectly equally in sexual crimes where sex is the crime. There are negative consequences and harms, but they are by no means equal let alone identical.
SarahW (b0e533) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:44 amHow many of you holier than thou’s think that it’s okay for a 23 year old to have relations with a 16 year old? Under FL law it’s legal. Kate and her girlfriend–who were in a mutual consenting relationship even though not legal–are separated by less than 4 years (though more than 3). That’s sufficient to reduce the sentence under FL’s “Romeo and Juliet” law. If the judge chooses to apply it in this case.
Kate did something unwise, but what teen who is infatuated might not do the same thing? Adolescents lose all sense when they think they are “in love”. The forbidden aspect may have sweetened it.
I think it is a gross miscarriage of justice to charge Kate with felonies–it could have gone differently. I am suspicious of the prosecutor and the parents, who stated, “Our daughter will not be gay”. I find that very telling.
There is too much political going on in this case. A prosecutor who will not reduce charges so Kate can keep felony child abuse off her record. (For crying out loud, she’s only 18, by law an adult but in reality still at kid. I was still a stupid kid at 18) Strict Christian parents who don’t want a daughter to be gay. I am wondering how close election looms for the prosecutor, after all this is a county that went for Romney.
All Kate’s parents are asking for is mercy. They want the charges reduced to a misdemeanor so Kate’s life is not ruined. Punish her, yes, but do so with compassion.
Marty Reeh (d4c120) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:44 amMUST. CRIMINALIZE. EVERYTHING.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:50 amCTD, I agree with you to a point and I think we should listen to ourselves and realize there is no point in having a discussion with someone who thinks it is a normal part of life for 14 year olds to learn about sex first hand from 18 yo’s.
What do you think someone who is “just a [18 yo] high school student” gets a pass for anyway?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:52 amCTD,
Gazzer (0efe8c) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:53 amAnd now she’s “harboring and abetting a minor runaway”? Do you people even listen to yourselves?
See my 27 above. Also, lots of new commenters today. I wonder why.
The victim was only fourteen, that’s the age that matters. She’s a goddamn child! She cannot do most things an eighteen-year old can — vote, smoke, drive a car, sign a lease, get a credit card, get a forty-hour a week job, join the military, get the death penalty, get prison for most crimes … but she can be sexually molested by eighteen-year old?
I am suspicious of the prosecutor and the parents, who stated, “Our daughter will not be gay”. I find that very telling.
Yeah, it’s Section 3.1416i of the Florida Criminal Code: It shall be a defense to homosexual child molestation that the victim’s parents disapprove of homosexual child molestation.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:54 amCTD – then you should push to change the law.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:55 amI want to know when each was born (failing that, their difference in age in days), how old they were when they met, and what grade in school they were then. How many (if any) grades in school each was skipped forward or held back.
And why the law is written so that it criminalizes an on-going relationship.
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:56 amIf one asked is it ok for a 14 year old to be seduced by an 18 year old and have her life turned into a mess, I hope people would say no.
If you think children should routinely have their first sexual experience at 14 with an 18 yo then there is nothing to talk about.
As I said above, if you think a 14 yo is so grown up, let her be an emancipated minor and let the 18 yo assume responsibility.
Treat a 14 yo as a child or as an adult, can’t do both when it suits you.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:56 amI, like a lot of kids, “ran away” a couple of times when I was a teenager, too. It always involved just going over to a friend’s house while I cooled off. I feel like an ass for upsetting my parents that way now. You know, because I’m not a dumb, impulsive, selfish kid anymore.
Shockingly, nobody started flinging around criminal charges.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:58 amMarty – if Kaitlyn were Kato, the star quarterback, and very male, would you have concerns about the sexual aspects of the relationship?
From the CNN article on Sunday:
I’m going to guess that it came from Ms. Hunt’s parents who have already been caught in a number of lies, all of which are designed to make their child look less guilty and more of a victim herself.
LibraryGryffon (06c781) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:59 amAs I said before, I don’t think there is much point to this discussion any more. Once the facts were known, there is little to discuss between people who think it is fine for 14 yo’s to be sexually active with 18 yo’s and those who thinkj it is a problem.
Though I guess there is one thing, maybe it would be good to know all the names and address of those who think it is jujst fine, so I know who to keep my 12 yo daughter away from, be it boys or girls.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:00 amWell, they do say that pedophiles were themselves victims of child molestation.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:00 amYou mistake me. My point is that neither of these two teenage high school students are “grown-up” in any sense.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:01 amCTD #41: When you ran away, did the friend you stayed with have you over so the two of you could indulge in various sexual behaviours? If not, that might have been why no criminal charges were filed.
LibraryGryffon (06c781) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:01 amSomething can simultaneously be a “problem” and also “not a crime.” You get that, right?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:02 amRobert
StaceyStacy McCain has been all over this story.Florida has a “Romeo and Juliet” law which takes into account relations between adults younger than 24 and 16 or 17 year olds, but 14 is simply way below the age of consent. The victim’s parents twice asked the lovely Miss Hunt to stay away from their daughter, before they went to the police. Then Miss Hunt’s parents lied about the whole thing, claiming that their daughter was only 17 when the affair began, and that the victim was 15, both of which were lies.
If we do, as some have suggested, and lower the age of consent to 14, what happens when the next case arises, and the victim is only 13? The same arguments will ensue.
Miss Hunt was offered a very good plea bargain: no jail time. She rejected that, and is now staring fifteen years dead in the eye. I’m guessing that she’ll be offered another plea deal, but this time it will involve some quality time at the greybar hotel.
The daddy Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:03 amHow many of you holier than thou’s …
Pretty safe to stop reading right there.
A prosecutor who will not reduce charges so Kate can keep felony child abuse off her record.
Simply not the case. She turned down a plea that would do exactly that.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:03 amWhat would that have to do with “aiding and abetting a minor runaway” or “kidnapping”? That’s the ridiculous claim that prompted my story.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:04 amSomething can simultaneously be a “problem” and also “not a crime.” You get that, right?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:02 am
If child molestation is not a crime, nothing should be.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:05 amI think you mistake me, CTD. The 18 yo has already acted like a grown up. The biggest crime was a society that told her she could get away with stupid stuff because she was “only an 18 yo high school student”.
nk at 44, that is why i said on an earlier thread I think it is bad policy to discuss the sexual behavior of any young person on line, including 18, 19, 20 yo’s. Nothing to be gained by discussing the situation without true knowledge, nothing to be gained by discussing such details in public with true knowledge.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:05 amIt’s time for the Billy Madison, JD, when they stray so far off point,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:05 amIt isn’t “holier than thou” to expect 18 year old lesbians be held to the same standard of the law as 18 year old heterosexual men.
It isn’t ‘holier than thou” to reject the idea that the problem here is ‘homophobia”.
It isn’t “holier than thou” to point out that most 14 year old girls are not equipped to deal with the emotional consequences of a relationship based on orgasms and stuff that makes then ‘feel good”, when they hardly know what a physical relationship entails to begin with. Or that their emotional reactions are distorted by normal teenage hormone fluxuation and thus are not a good basis for a serious sexual relationship with anybody. Which is why we have “shotgun humor” that revolves around horny young girls and older males than try to get in their pants.
Teenage sexual relationships aren’t the “pure love” harmless romps you are portraying them to be, CTD.
Our ghettos are filled with the dysfunctional results of uninhibited sexual relationships of minor girls with whoever they choose to take to bed. You need to grow up pal.
SGT Ted (0ffd9b) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:06 amAnd I’d guess that the two Steubenville football players recently convicted of rape never really saw it as rape, but just some pranking around with a girl who had too much to drink. I’m sure that they didn’t mean anything serious by it, not in the slightest. Oddly enough, the law didn’t see it that way.
Sometimes, lines do have to be drawn.
The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:08 amMD, we are violating the Three Golden Sieves Rule, aren’t we? But we do that a lot.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:08 amOFFS, we’re on to “child molestation” now? This isn’t some middle-aged creep diddling fifth-graders. These were two teenagers, going to the same high school, who were in a consensual relationship with each other.
Sometimes I don’t want to live on this planet anymore…
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:10 amOnce again, “problematic” need not equal “criminal.”
Am I literally the only person who thinks this?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:11 amKate Hunt faces possible (read “possible”) sex offender registration-that was not taken off the table. If it’s legal in FL for a 23 yr old to have “relations” with a 16 year old, I saw that there is something wrong with the law. Apply the R & J aspect to Kate’s sentence. As the law is written, it applies. It is up to the judge, but in FL I don’t think Kate stands a chance. There are kids 14 to 18 attending this school–you going to tell me this isn’t going on? Why aren’t they being punished?
Marty Reeh (d4c120) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:12 amAnd if we think that 14 year-olds bumping uglies with 18 year-olds is some problem grave enough to send teenagers to prison for, maybe we shouldn’t force these two groups to spend hours and hours together every day?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:14 amCouple of points bear consideration.
MT Geoff (a67ef4) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:15 amFirst, in terms of fairness and the law, switch circumstances a bit. When an 18-year-old male senior has sex with a 14-year-old female first-year, he typically does find himself staring down felony charges and registration as a sex offender.
Second, switch the genders. If an 18-year-old male senior engaged a 14-year-old male first-year, he is likely to be treated as if the incident were forcible rape, regardless of the actual circumstances.
Okay, enough of the switching of circumstances. Laws about age of consent exist for good reasons. Most fourteen-year-olds, male or female, need at least a couple of years to understand their own sexuality well enough to consent to shared sex with anyone. When an adult makes such a young person feel desired, it can be a powerful seducer for someone who needs time before being ready for sex. What sounds like fun in a porn story is actually wretched as a reality.
There are exceptions but the law has to be written for “most” cases. A judge can consider “exception” in sentencing, perhaps. Many states also have “Romeo and Juliet” clauses where the offense is mitigated or even removed if the partners are close in age (usually three years).
The circumstances described support the idea that an adult violated the vulnerability of a much younger person and also interfered severely with the family structure. Gender and sexuality aren’t, or shouldn’t be, players in the case. Historically, though, men have been far more vulnerable to prosecution in cases of this kind.
Because this is about a larger agenda, otherwise Purpose wouldn’t have latched on to it, the facts are immaterial to the goal, which is to erode parental authority, and normalize same sex relationships,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:19 amMarty and CTD – you should work to change the law then. As is, you are advocating ignoring the law because you don’t want to see someone have a bad outcome for choosin to ignore the law.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:20 amThe high school freshman girl on the basketball team that Kaitlyn Hunt is involved with is definitely a minor—but not a “child.”
A child is pre-pubescent.
The fifteen year old girl is post-pubescent.
So, please, let’s stop with the silly “child molester !” characterizations.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:21 amZOMFGWTFBBQ All underage lesbian predators should be jailed.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:25 am#58, CTD. “Problematic” need not equal “criminal”.
You’re thinking with your brain, rather than your gonads.
“Romeo and Juliet Laws”, btw, should expand sexual consent to thirteen-year-olds, since that’s Juliet’s age (lacking several weeks of being fourteen.) Romeo’s age is less precisely given, he’s not yet reached his majority (which makes him under 16, 18, 19, 20, or 21, depending on which set of laws applies.) These days, he’s commonly played at least five years older, but he may have been younger than Juliet!
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:29 amAnd if we think that 14 year-olds bumping uglies with 18 year-olds is some problem grave enough to send teenagers to prison for, maybe we shouldn’t force these two groups to spend hours and hours together every day?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:14 am
We try not to. To the best we can, we segregate by sex. That’s why pedophilia is predominantly homosexual.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:30 am#64: a 15yo is not a child? The feds now think 25yos are children for the purposes of health insurance!
Anyway, the younger girl didn’t even turn 15 until several months after the relationship ended.
LibraryGryffon (06c781) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:31 amCTD asked:
Oh, no, no, no, of course not! You can find plenty of other denizens of the Lost Kos saying things like that, but we don’t take them seriously, either.
The mean Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:36 amJD — as I understand it, their relationship was legal while they were both under the age of 18 and then became illegal when the older turned 18. That strikes me as being a very poorly crafted law, screaming for jury nullification or a judge to set aside a conviction.
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:37 amYes, an 18 year old adult having sex with a 14 year old minor is by law, child molestation. As far as jail time, Ms Hunt was offered a plea bargain where she would not have been a sex offender.
Tanny O'Haley (2ece1d) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:37 amMost of my high school class turned 18 during the nine months of their senior year. This would have forced a lot of breakups, just within seniors dating seniors.
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:41 amHtom – I have no quibbles with what you say, but ignoring the law seems like a poor idea from the 18 yr old’s POV, and from the legal POV. If the law is poorly constructed, it should be fixed. Not ignored.
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:44 amMr Stone wrote:
I would suggest that the fourteen year old girl is most probably mid-pubescent, and the eighteen year old could be herself. But, lacking some sort of Star Trek tricorder which can tell us exactly at what maturity level a given individual happens to be scientifically, we are forced to draw reasonable lines as best we can, and the line drawn in Florida — and, I think, everyplace else — is higher than fourteen.
Am I willing to see that cute little green-eyed cheerleader spend some time in the hoosegow? Yup, sure am! This is the point at which every principal in the country ought to call an assembly and lay out the law to all of his students: it doesn’t matter what you want or what your hormones tell you, minors cannot consent, and stat rape is real rape.
The precise Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:44 amhtom wrote:
Unfortunately, you do not understand it correctly: their sexual relationship began after Miss Hunt turned 18.
The very precise Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:45 amFlorida has a Romeo and Juliet law for children above the age of sixteen.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:46 amNo, a 15 year old post-pubescent teenager is not a child—she is a minor, but not a child.
A child is pre-pubescent.
The fifteen year old high school girl is post-pubescent.
Why is that so difficult to process ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:49 amIs 14 above the age of consent in any State?
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:49 amNo, JD. The lowest age of consent in any U.S. state is 16.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:50 amhtom, the esteemed Mr McCain has the precise information. If you believe that Miss Hunt was 17, it was probably due to her family spreading a deliberate lie to influence you to believe that.
The Dana with the documentation (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:50 aminstead of having hot lesbian bathroom sex they maybe should’ve just kissed and hugged in the car later on and then after that they could’ve gone to best buy and overpaid for some “beats by dre” wireless headphones
and after that they could’ve done more huggings and kissings and then after that they could’ve gone to see a movie and then after that they could’ve shared pancakes at the ihop and then it would’ve been teen lesbian bedtime so they would’ve had to part ways and go home
but for awhile they could’ve stayed awake in bed, texting each other professions of love
this way nobody would be going to jail for fifteen years
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:51 amI see no reason, no reason at all, that the age of consent shouldn’t be nine.
The prophet Muhammad (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:51 am“The fifteen year old high school girl is post-pubescent.”
ES – Irrelevant since neither party in the relationship was 15.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:52 amNo, a 15 year old post-pubescent teenager is not a child—she is a minor, but not a child.
A child is pre-pubescent.
The fifteen year old high school girl is post-pubescent.
Why is that so difficult to process ?
Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:49 am
Also Sprach Zarathustra! (Cue tympani)
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:55 amEither we protect our children from sexual predators or we don’t, and yes a 14 year old of either sex is a child, and an 18 year old involved sexually with a 14 year old is engaged in an illegal predatory relationship, that’s black letter law.
But, the reality is not that cut and dried. Let’s face facts, some sexual relationships just aren’t as offensive as others. Older men or boys preying on young girls who might get pregnant top the list of offenders, next is older men or boys who prey on young boys, and last, and least offensive, is 18 year old girls who prey on 14 year old girls.
Since these individuals are both young lesbians and since pregnancy or physical coercion aren’t issues, and since we already have ample evidence to demonstrate that older women preying on younger boys usually get treated with kid gloves, shouldn’t we just go ahead and acknowledge that this consensual sexual relationship, as tawdry and inappropriate as it is, simply isn’t a matter for the courts.
ropelight (259b34) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:56 amMr Stone, after correction, persists:
Probably because it simply is not correct. Puberty is not a specific point in time, but a process which occurs over time, and which proceeds differently for different individuals. A fourteen year old — which is the case at hand, not a fifteen year old — may be post-pubescent, but may also be in the middle of puberty, and, in some (few) cases, pre-pubescent. Your statements assumed facts not in evidence, but simply your opinion of what might be the case.
The very specific Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:56 amCTD, not all “teenagers” are permitted by law to have sexual relations with each other. What is so difficult to understand about that?
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:02 amropelight, so many of the accused’s defenders want to assert that the prosecution of her is about “homophobia”.
But is it now “homophobic” to think that lesbians should not get to do things that male gays and all heteros are not?
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:04 amThank goodness the Boy Scouts saw the error of their ways and remedied it last week. What could possibly go wrong?
in_awe (7c859a) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:05 amWho said I don’t understand it. I just think the law is an ass.
And why the scare quotes are around “teenagers”?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:07 amAs a mom of (now) young adults and someone that has worked in the education system with teens I cannot fathom the idea that an 18 year old would not have known exactly what was and was not considered ‘jailbait’.
I’ve just read the comment that we know coercion wasn’t at play. How do we know that? An 18 year old in a relationship with this much of a gap most likely holds much more power.
I don’t consider this transgression by an 18 year old on a 14 year old ‘least offensive’. I get incredibly irate about adults of any age that initiate relationships with even 16 year olds. My two adult children – 18 and 19 year old men – when asked think that dating two years younger is quirky – maturity wise.
Arlene (2e6d9d) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:07 amI understand the law on the books is the law on the books, but I sure hope the Florida legislature changes this law so that in the future, two legitimate high school students who are dating—even if one party happens to have already turned 18—won’t have their entire lives ruined by high school romance.
This is not a case of some creepy older guy loitering around the playground, waiting to prey upon little Cindy Brady in pigtails after she finishes playing a game of hopscotch.
Rather, these are two consenting post-pubescent teenagers who were teammates on the high school basketball team.
Prosecutors use discretion in what they choose to prosecute. I wish they would in this particular case.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:13 amThe prosecutors in this case could have an easy “out” by saying, “Ok, most eighteen year old high school seniors were not aware of these statutory laws and Romeo & Juliet laws governing their high school romances, but y’all are now. And for all you creepy older predators—we’re still going to throw the book at you !”
CTD, because 13 and 19 are “teenagers”. And these laws have survived a long time in our society because a lot of people think that there is value to them. I’m pretty comfortable living on a planet that thinks that there are ages that are off limits to sexual relations. In general, I’m less comfortable around those that want to destroy those limits. And I have no desire to live on an entire planet of such people.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:14 amSPQR,
Who is 13 ? And who is 19 ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:22 amMaybe I don’t have all the accurate facts in this particular story.
Lamp shades covered with fragrance-sprayed scarves. Candles. Music–anything from Teddy Pendergrass to Ravel to Light My Fire.
That’s romance. Stinky school bathroom stalls? Not so much. Really. Not so much.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:26 amcandles plus fragrance-sprayed scarves sounds like a fire hazard
fire safety starts with you
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:28 amEmily Bazelon is doing what a lot of people do: assuming that there is no reason for you to hold your beliefs, and then turning around and rejecting any reason they hear as somehow intrinsically tied up with racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.
Unfortunately, my law school experience didn’t teach me to play psychic with other people’s motivations; it taught me to neutrally apply rules. So let’s ask: would the young Jane Doe have been any less sexually assaulted if she were digitally penetrated by male fingers? Is there anything to suggest that a fourteen-year-old can give meaningful consent to digital penetration by female fingers, but cannot give such consent when hairy, thick boy fingers are involved?
bridget (84c06f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:28 amDana, friend, if you know of evidence that the 14/15 year old freshman had not yet reached puberty when she began the relationship with Kaitlyn Hunt, please provide me a link, as that would cause me to reconsider my position on this case.
But my understanding is that the freshman definitely was post-pubescent.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:29 amthis consensual sexual relationship, as tawdry and inappropriate as it is, simply isn’t a matter for the courts
i suppose you’re right
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:29 amhairy, thick boy fingers
you did not just write that
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:31 amWell if this was an opposite sex couple the DA would probably have pled down to a misdemeanor and not required sex offender registry like he has on the large majority of cases of this in his county. I have to think there is some homophobia involved as he refused to do that and would only offer felony charges. Was this a crime? – Yes. Should it be? – That remains debatable and I personally believe no it shouldn’t. Should this girl’s life be ruined before she graduates high school for having sex with her girlfriend? – NO.
KLH (dd892a) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:31 amI agree with one of the commentors above. Change the gender. Picture an 18 year old boy befriending a 14 year old and slowly ramping up the pressure in person and by text message to make their relationship sexual. Finally the older boy convinces the younger to meet in a school bathroom for oral sex.
But it’s okay because they are in love…
Because you cannot imagine a woman as an aggressive sexual predator, does not mean she wasn’t a sexual predator.
Xmas (6a4f88) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:34 amThis law isn’t evil, though. Fer crissake, I remember hearing “15 will get you 20” when I was a teen — and I knew EXACTLY what it meant, and why it was around.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:34 amI think we know older girl has to be stopped by law, lest it end in feeding glummy mummy the last tart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Creatures
I have no problem with fines, restraining orders, forced separation and jail if it doesnt work. But a misdemeanor is enough.
SarahW (b0e533) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:36 amDo you? What do you call a 14-year-old who left home without her parents’ knowledge or permission? What do you call having that 14-year-old sleeping in your home?
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:37 am“Would that alleged “harm” have somehow evaporated into the either had her girlfriend been a 17 year old instead of 18? What kind of sense does that make?”
CTD – Let’s say a 17 year old goes to register to vote in an upcoming election at the time of which he/she will still be 17. He/she is prohibited from registering to vote in the election because the law says you must be 18. What kind of sense does that make?
I keep getting the sense that you are an age is just a number person when it comes to sex and that you don’t believe in age of consent or statutory rape or related laws. If not, please explain why you are making a special pleading for Kaitlyn.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:38 amNo, but sexual abuse of a minor? Yeah, I want that criminalized. Why don’t you?
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:39 amYour friends didn’t sexually abuse you, did they?
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:40 amWrong. The 18-year-old is responsible for her actions.
What age do you think should be the legal age for adulthood? 47?
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:41 amthe 14/15 year old
She was 14. That is not in question.
I have to think there is some homophobia involved as he refused to do that and would only offer felony charges.
Absolute BS. You don’t have to think that. You choose to. And the prosecutor offered a very generous plea, which they refused. Were you unaware of that?
JD (934f52) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:42 amThis.
But apparently if it’s “gay molestation” it’s OK.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:42 am“No, a 15 year old post-pubescent teenager is not a child—she is a minor, but not a child.”
ES – Girls younger than this are sold into sex slavery around the world. It is time America caught up.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:43 amWrong. One of them is a legal adult, the other is still below the age of consent.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:44 amYou’re the only one who thinks sexual abuse of a minor shouldn’t be criminal, yes.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:44 am“Marty Reeh” — when you stop repeating lies about the case, you’ll be worth responding to.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:45 amWe don’t force them to spend hours together. They just happen to be in the same building. I can’t remember ANY freshmen in my classes when I was a senior, or any seniors in my freshmen classes.
But nice try to shift the blame.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:48 amBut it’s all hatey and wrong and makes people frown!
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:54 amIt’s amusing how you think this case isn’t just that creepy.
(The creepiest thing is all the defenders and their fanatical devotion to the cause. Then toss in the accused parents and their various statements. Then toss in the accused.)
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:57 amThat’s just crazy talk.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:59 amYou should first accept that it doesn’t matter at all. The ages matter, and that’s all.
And your… obsession with the question is disturbing.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:59 amThe DA did just that. The accused rejected the offer. Please try to keep up with the case.
Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:00 pm“Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:54 am”
Yes, I make people frown. Heh, its a hobby. Speaking of which …
“ES – Girls younger than this are sold into sex slavery around the world. It is time America caught up.”
Score for daleyrocks. Gimme five, my man.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:07 pm“Bathroom Stall Girlfriend”.
Do I sense a country song hit coming on?
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:10 pmYes, a consensual end zone dance between two legal adults is definitely warranted.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:12 pmUnfortunately, we have a lot of adults that have not grown up, but that’s no excuse for breaking the law. Thank you for bringing facts into the conversation, I appreciate your comments. As a child at 7, 10, and 14 I was molested. At 14 with a 16 year old girl it ruined the relationship we had and I regret it to this day. As a 14 year old boy, my hormones may have wanted sex which she told me I had to do, though I didn’t protest, I was not emotionally prepared for sex.
I do not see how it is possible that the pretty 18 year old popular cheerleader didn’t have undue influence over a 14 year old freshman. To the point of coercion.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:37 pmMaybe the worst offender in this case is whoever suggested to KH that she not take the misdemeanor plea deal, be it her parents or whoever.
Making this a public cause has helped no one involved, nor has it helped gay rights,
nor has it helped this blog.
Has “CTD” ever been here before? Or was he/she surfing around for blog threads on KH to do some advocacy? Which I guess is just fine, but would explain no posts on the open thread where it was discussed but not made prominent with a thread title.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:48 pmMr Stone wrote:
Most of these cases aren’t prosecuted because:
In this case, the parents have chosen to press charges, after warnings to stay away from their minor daughter failed to work. The prosecutors still has the discretion not to follow through on the charges, but, as a practical matter, he has lost that discretion politically, if he wishes to remain prosecutor.
The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:53 pmMr Stone wrote:
Post-pubescent means after puberty. And puberty is defined as a period of time, not simply a point in time at which puberty begins. If you are using the term “post-pubescent” to mean that she was in puberty, or that she had started puberty, you have been using the term incorrectly.
The Dana who looked it up. (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:00 pmNobody should plead guilty to a sex offense just to stay off a sex-offender registry. The registry should be the least of their worries, with jail being the first. Even without jail and without registry, the offender’s conviction would still be of record to anyone who cares to search his name, and he will have to answer on various applications whether he was ever convicted of a crime and if “yes” give details. Plea bargains are not Black Friday sales at Best Buy.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:07 pmthere are a lot of commenters on this thread what make real good sense
then there are the rest of you
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:10 pmnk- are you suggesting KH did the smart thing by not doing the plea deal, or just making a general statement about plea deals, or?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:13 pmThese girls shoulda talked to Larry Craig. Real bad stuff happens to you when you decide to fool around in bathroom stalls.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:17 pmThe Dana,
I believe the freshman in question had already surpassed “the period of time of puberty” at the time of the commencement of the relationship, in which case, one would reasonably characterize her as, “post-pubescent.”
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:18 pmEmphasizing that a conviction, even without registry and without incarceration, would still stigmatize her for the rest of her life. Felony has worse formal collateral disabilities than misdemeanor does generally, but not so much in the case of a sex offense. Is rolling the dice the smart thing? She certainly is trying to load them. I don’t know.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:20 pmBecause the eligibility of a girl for sexual relations with adults should solely be judged by the hormonal state of her ladyparts….
Unbelievable.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:20 pmIf misdemeanor, she could probably still own a gun, but get any kind of child-care type license, adopt, foster, military service, law enforcement? Doctor, nurse? She’d probably have no trouble becoming licensed as an attorney, though.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:25 pmComment by Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 5/28/2013 @ 12:00 pm – That’s not so. He made a compromise offer, but it was a felony charge.
SarahW (b0e533) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:27 pmThe other thing is, if you don’t plead guilty you can claim you were innocent and it was a miscarriage of justice. That’s important, too.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:28 pmWhile hardly to be advised or condoned, teen sex happens for all the reasons we know it happens, and while the age of majority may be 18, we also know that there are exceptions made where they are practical and necessary (the drinking age for example). Maturity doesn’t happen overnight, and clearly 18 year-olds differ quite a bit from adults even just a few years older when it comes to judgment and understanding. Does this mean no consequences for Kaitlyn Hunt or older teen boys in the same situation, or more precisely, older teen girls (in heterosexual relationships with younger teen boys)? No, but wise and compassionate justice would recommend a misdemeanor rather than a felony–and a penalty that would discourage the behavior (and parents not minding their teen offspring) while not destroying futures for irresponsible though not unexpected lapses. The reflexive reaction to what is happening in this case (the public rallying on behalf of Kaitlyn Hunt) is a response to disproportionate justice not a suggestion that her acts were acceptable.
DM (364a1b) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:29 pmI don’t know the ins and outs of all laws about sexual age of consent — my sweetheart would be worried if I did — but here’s part of what I understand.
MT Geoff (a67ef4) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:29 pm1. A child under 16 cannot lawfully consent to sexual conduct. That’s a calendar issue rather than a medical issue of adolescent changes.
2. The older person is considered responsible if a sexual relationship occurs across the age of consent. This is true even if the older person is also under the age of consent (e.g. a 15-y-o and a 12-y-o).
3. Most states — a commenter says Florida is one — have an exception when the people involved are close in age and it’s usually three years.
Based on the information I’ve heard about the case, Kaitlyn was approaching 18 and the other girl was just over 14 when they had their first sexual encounter. Even though Kaitlyn would have been a minor, the incident would still have been a felony even with the Romeo and Juliet provision. That applies, at least at the law, regardless of the genders involved.
I don’t see how homophobia plays into the case, though (like the lawyer above) I lack psychic powers.
somebody said they mighta seen you where the ocean meets the land so I been out here all night lookin’ for my bathroom stall girlfriend
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:30 pmThat only works with an exaggerated southern accent feets. I’m almost sure you can do better.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:33 pmKLH wrote:
We saw the same arguments concerning the two Steubenville high school football players who have had their lives ruined because they were just pranking around, but did so in a way which constituted rape. If they had thought it was rape — assuming that they were thinking much at all, given that they were drunk — they probably wouldn’t have done it; should their lives have been ruined because of it?
My answer is yes, because at some point, doing what you want even though it is a crime is not somehow excused because you didn’t think it was a crime or didn’t think it was all hat bad. In some ways, I feel sorry for Miss Hunt, because she’s part of a culture which says if it feels good, do it. I feel the same way about drug laws and a whole lot of other things. But having some sympathy for her plight does not mean that I would excuse her crime.
The plea bargain she was offered seems very fair to me, and she should have taken it. Now, it seems that her only hope is jury nullification.
The Dana who tells it like it is (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:36 pmSPQR, #135, that’s a dishonest appraisal of my position and you know it.
I just don’t think Kaitlyn Hunt should go to jail for this. She had just recently turned 18 when this happened, and we shouldn’t treat it in the same context of a creepy older person preying on a 4th grade Cindy Brady in pigtails.
The whole point about puberty is that once puberty has been surpassed, the minor is no longer considered a “child.”
Child molestation is a serious issue, and should not be thrown around when passionately discussing a high school romance between two high school varsity basketball players that everyone admits violates the Florida law.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:38 pmMr Geoff wrote:
Miss Hunt was already over 18 when their relationship began.
The precise Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:38 pm“Oh, our relationship began in a high school bathroom stall.”
Go ahead. Try it to the tune of Oh! Susannah. It’s quite catchy.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:44 pmDM writes: “The reflexive reaction to what is happening in this case (the public rallying on behalf of Kaitlyn Hunt) is a response to disproportionate justice not a suggestion that her acts were acceptable.”
Since Hunt rejected a plea bargain, your assertion is contrary to fact.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:45 pmWhat is wrong with the Florida laws in your opinion? No crime if consensual and both parties are within 2 years of age, 16&17 yos with 23 or less is not a crime as long as consensual, and an open field for consensual sex those between 12-16 on each other even if not covered by the 2 year exemption. Sounds pretty easy-to-follow to me, but on top of that there is provision for those who violate these rules to get out of the sex criminal reporting as long as it was consensual and the age difference was 4 years or less.
max (131bc0) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:45 pmElephant Stone, but not as dishonest an appraisal as asserting that people are accusing Hunt of “child molestation”.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:47 pm“She’d probably have no trouble becoming licensed as an attorney, though.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:25 pm ”
Well, that’s a relief.
SPQR (768505) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:48 pmAt this point, every principal in the country should be planning for a big student body assembly, to point out what everybody should know: it doesn’t matter what the students’ hormones tell them to do, some of what they feel like doing can ruin the rest of their lives. Bring up Miss Hunt and bring up Steubenville, and point out that just because something seems like fun, the wrong thing can mean jail, can mean a felony conviction which will stay with you for the rest of your life, and can mean that everything you had hoped and dreamed of doing might be taken away from you just for being f(ornicating) stupid.
The very practical Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:52 pmelissa wrote:
I think that this is mission for Colonel Haiku!
The somewhat amused Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:54 pmIt wasn’t a sex offense, but all I needed to do was answer honestly and completely on my bar application.
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:55 pmSPQR wrote:
Actually, I thought that screwing people is simply part of training to become an attorney.
The snarky Dana (3e4784) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:56 pmSPQR,
Please, friend, scroll way up the thread.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 1:58 pm“Child molestation” was indeed bandied about.
Miss Hunt was already over 18 when their relationship began.
Why do people insist on tryin to muddy this up. She was over 18.
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:02 pmDayum–bet the Kardashians wish they’d a thought of this angle for some reality attention and publicity. Pikers!
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:02 pmJD,
I think the reason some people might be confused about how old Kaitlyn was when the relationship began is because Kaitlyn’s father had erroneously stated that she was 17 when it began.
He since has corrected the record and admitted that she had just turned 18 when it began.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:05 pmHere you go, happyfeet:
She was only fourteen, only fourteen
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:05 pmEighteen was too young to know
She was too young for bathroom sex
And I was too young to know
I see the Stalinist gay speech and thought kommissars are out in force.
A sentiment shared by a great many of us.
Why should she offer any evidence? I’m sure it’s true that it is hard for her to see beyond a figment of her imagination in a vast number of instances. That’s how it is with fanatics.
Steve57 (9b1cdb) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:09 pmES – well, just in this thread, look how many times it has erroneously been stated and questioned. As with the 14 yr old age of the “victim”.
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:10 pmI still do not see how it is possible that the pretty 18 year old popular cheerleader didn’t have undue influence over a 14 year old freshman. To the point of coercion. I do not believe that Kaitlyn Hunt is a victim. The victims are Miss Smith and her parents.
A 14 year old girl is not emotionally mature enough to make a decision to have consensual sex.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:19 pmEet ees working perfectly, Pflouffy! They are talking about childrens’ vaginas instead of Benghazi, shopping for newssnoop federal judges, the deficit, immigration, or the IRS! Excellent diversionary tactic.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:19 pmShe broke the law. She was offered a deal, she rejected it. The pubescent state doesn’t matter. The ages do. Those are a matter of record which clearly show the law was broken.
Their love for each other is irrelevant. Kate broke the law. Their orientation is irrelevant. Kate broke the law. Whether it was in the bathroom or the bedroom is irrelevant. Kate broke the law.
You can attach any sort of emotion you want to it but it doesn’t change the facts. Homophobe, child molester, sex offender, etc. Those are just hot buttons. They don’t change the relevant facts.
SB (8a4846) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:24 pmlooking back
on the memory of
the dance we shared
in our stall of love
for that moment
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:24 pmlost in love we sighed
how could I have known
you had to be this tall to ride
That is a desperate remark from someone who has absolutely NO respect for the rights of parents to guide the lives of their minor children.
I don’t know how old you are, CTD, but there was NEVER any question in my day that “playing doctor,” “heavy petting,” or “third base” with young girls was done at the risk of not only arrest, but grievous bodily injury by an angry father — or TWO, including my own. In most of America, it wasn’t a difficult concept to grasp: A fourteen-year-old girl’s vagina is neither anyone else’s to take nor hers to give. She is a child in the eyes of the law and ought to be viewed as such by others regardless of her maturity or lack of same. She is, literally, “No-man’s land.” I guess we have to be inclusive and say “no-woman’s land,” either.
However, now, here in the “tens,” things are turned on their heads: How dare a parent sic the law on an eighteen-year-old who just wanted to love their fourteen-year-old daughter in the high school bathroom! The way this case has been presented to the general public was via a mass-media campaign orchestrated by the ACLU and the more radical and libertine elements of the homosexual lobby (Not all gay activists are going along with this). It’s been joined by celebrities like novelist Anne Rice (who referred to Hunt’s actions as “an erotic relationship”), actress Evan Rachel Wood, talentless celebrity spawn Kelly Osbourne, and hackholes Anonymous, which has sprung into action by cyber-harassing the school, the prosecutors, and by “doxing” the parents of the 14-year-old.
Over the better part of an entire day last week, I Twitter-jousted with a dKossack and self-described “#BIGGAY” activist who lauded the Hunt family’s mendacious media offensive (“This is what a good dad looks like…”). In the course of the back-and-forth, he revealed that as a 16-year-old, he had dated college seniors who got away with sex with him without being branded molesters (I guess he thinks he’s turned out great). He even tried the to suggest that letting Kate get away scott-free would be the compassionate, Christian thing to do. He was unsympathetic to the idea that the victim’s parents’ rights hold sway over Kaitlyn’s not to be branded a sex criminal after she, y’know, committed a sex crime. My final four tweets to him before he blocked me are here, but I will summarize them:
Anyone and everyone who wants to spare Hunt the consequences of her actions wants to do so at the expense of the rights of the 14-year-old’s father and mother, while at the same time excusing Kaitlyn’s parents from their part in either endorsing or looking the other way as their adult daughter deflowered a girl barely in her teens. For me, it’s an easy determination of who has the high ground. The fact that there’s a controversy about this shows how low our society has sunk.
L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:24 pmI knew I could ensnare you in the lyrics challenge, happyfeet. Good job.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:27 pmHappyfeet winz the innertubez
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:41 pmBecause that’s what we Stalinists want. Fewer people locked into cages. Fewer people incarcerated against their will for non-crimes.
If someone suggest that just maybe, we consider that our laws are a bit too draconian, and that a bit of human mercy should be shown in some cases, that person has surely outed himself as a Stalinist.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:48 pmIt’s happening in this very thread.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:50 pmFewer people incarcerated against their will for non-crimes.
As it sits, it is a crime. I encourage you to change the law to fit your liking. How young should the age of consent be?
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:51 pmI’m making no such special pleading. I was quite explicit about that, if anyone was paying attention.
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:53 pmCTD – I have a reply for you locked up in moderation. Watch the space beneath happyfeet’s lyrics.
L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:55 pmCTD, kindly point out the numerous times you’ve left comments objecting to heterosexual 18 year old men being prosecuted for statutory rape.
Steve57 (9b1cdb) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:55 pmAhem…
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:57 pmLN – released
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:00 pmI’ve yet to get an answer on what the AOC should be from Free Katers. They dodge the question the same way same-sex marriage advocates refuse to address why the number of legal married partners should remain at only two. I believe they don’t want to deal with explaining their arbitrary methodology, lest they be subjected to the same scrutiny they give current law.
When challenged by Antonin Scalia in the Prop 8 oral arguments, no less a legal genius than Ted Olson tried to answer the “Why not polygamy” question with a rhetorical question. Of course, Scalia wasn’t having any of that.
L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:05 pmAhem. Please point us to all the times you did ask the same question, zampolit.
We get trolls here proclaiming how they would apply their principles equally. It’s a standard troll tactic. Talk’s cheap. let’s see proof.
Steve57 (9b1cdb) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:10 pmLN – their lack of intellectual honesty is quite transparent.
JD (df45ac) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:14 pmI’ll tell you who’s going to be better off, CTD — parents in Florida who are reassured that if they say “Stay the hell away from my daughter,” there will be a high-profile, tip-of-the-lip household name to invoke the worst-case scenario to someone who refuses to keep his (or her) hands to (his or her)self.
L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:15 pmKind of like the Catholic priests who were accused of molesting 14 year old boys
Is it molestation for an adult to have sex with an adolescent?
Chuck Bartowski (11fb31) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:18 pmSo you agree it’s not about “protecting” teenagers from each other, but to “reassure” parents?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:24 pmYour Honor, I tripped and my vibrator slipped right into her. I swear it was an accident.
We had our dates in the bathroom stall at the high school or at my house when she left her own home late at night without her parents’ permission.
Kaitlyn
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:24 pmThere’s your answer.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:30 pmMr. Feets – It reminds me of that oldie – Paradise by the Bathroom Lights – by Meat Curtains.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:34 pmMr Smithee wrote:
The current setting of the law is arbitrary, but there is such consistency in the setting of the ages of consent in a narrow range — 16 to 18 — that it would seem that we have some commonality of judgement in our arbitrary decisions.
To set the age of consent at 14 would make NAMBLA happier, but it would be very far outside of the cultural norms which have informed the various state legislatures. I should think that CTD might be under some obligation to explain why he would make sex with a 14 year old permissible. The closest thing I have seen to an argument for that is the statement that sex with 14 year olds happens anyway.
However, if CTD or someone else makes a solid argument as to why the age of consent should be lowered to 14 — perhaps he might take into account Mr Stone’s erroneous statement that 15 is post-pubescent, which may sometimes be true but is hardly always the case — then they are stuck the first time some completely innocent and wholesome high school senior diddles a 13 year old. If we shouldn’t ruin poor Miss Hunt’s life for fingering a 14½ year old, why should we then ruin some other Eagle Scout’s life because he was playing, consensually, with a 13¾ year old?
The Dana who notices these things (af9ec3) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:39 pmCTD wrote:
That’s hardly what he said. He stated that such gives parents more ammunition with which to protect their children.
Perhaps you do not believe that parents should try to protect heir children?
The Dana who notices these things (af9ec3) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:42 pmAre you purposely being obtuse? Protecting the parents rights automatically “protect” the child’s right as the parents are legally and morally responsible for the well being of their child. A 14 year old teenager is not an adult, but a child. A child only has a right to sex in a very sick mind. Are you a child molester, CTD? It seems like you’re trying to make the case for minors to consent to have sex with adults.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:44 pmAOC laws…..
askeptic (b8ab92) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:45 pmWe need an opinion from an authority on these types of matters:
Bill Clinton.
If you think this is isolated, you’re mistakem;
http://www.therightscoop.com/silence-will-be-interpreted-as-disapproval-doj-telling-employees-to-verbally-affirm-homosexuality/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRightScoop+%28The+Right+Scoop%29
narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:56 pmComment by L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 2:24 pm
Adding to what you said, apparently some people think it must have been a rewarding and positive life experience for the young 14 yo as they are concerned about how HK’s life has been devastated, but no comment about the younger. Perhaps they think more 14 yo’s should benefit from such enriching experiences. What do parents know anyway…
As said elsewhere above, just because a girl starts menstruating at 9 or 10 and has more breast tissue at 12 than some young adults, I would not say she is past childhood.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:01 pmComment by narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 3:56 pm
As I’ve said before, that is the natural and necessary logical consequence of the pro-gay agenda. One either thinks homosexuality and heterosexuality are morally and biologically (somehow) equivalent, or you don’t. If you don’t, but the government says you must, then your view has been outlawed and you are a thought police target.
Some people think that is a good idea, to put the hetero-sexists in their place. I say that makes more sense and is logically consistent, and the idea that you can legislate moral convictions against the will of the people and not have chaos is naive.
We can make murder illegal because most people share the basic idea that killing someone without cause is morally wrong.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:10 pmCTD, Are you going to answer my question? You seem to get upset when your questions are answered and twist the answers of those who respond to you. Are you going to answer my question? Hmmm…
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:10 pmDon’t know if I can successfully embed a Twitter code here:
But, if’n it didn’t work, Robert
The Dana who tweets (af9ec3) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:11 pmStaceyStacy McCain says that he’ll have breaking news on #FreeKate by 9:00 PM.The nonsensical “homophobia” angle from the left-wing in no way is surprising. That’s leftism 101A. Deflection. Transferrence. Projection. Opponent demonization. A complete disconnect from reality.
For decades that’s been the left’s basic slate of tactics and stratagems. It’s as hackneyed as a bad sitcome, but alas, given the public at large’s descent into Idiocracy mode, it’s quite effective.
If a black guy shoots a Korean or a white Jew point blank, execution style, then according to the left not only will the ensuing prosecution be “racist” but merely discussing the race of the parties involved also is “racist.” If a chop shop doctor in a depressed liberal Democrat city engages in fatal and homicidal late-term abortions then it’s “misogynistic” according to the far left even to suggest perhaps there should be some real restrictions on the practices of abortion providers. If a former Democrat state governor and federal senator, and key party fundraiser, bankrupts a major company and in so doing presides over literal theft of client assets, merely to discuss the man’s political affiliation is an “ad hominem” attack. And sure enough if an adult lesbian engages in statutory rape and lewd and lascivious conduct with a minor of the same sex then merely to discuss the ensuing legal issues, much less to pursue a criminal case, would amount to “homophobia,” according to leftists.
It’s not a coincidence that when liberals are in power problems not only don’t get solved they metastasize and worsen. The likes of Detroit, Chicago, Philly, L.A., New Orleans, Camden, Baltimore, Newark, etc., did not happen by accident. Nor did Europe. Nor did the likes of California. Leftism is not about solving problems. It’s about emoting the failures, foibles and disorders of those who practice it.
William Scalia (4fc30a) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:12 pmBathroom stall sex in a public restroom is just equally skeevy whether it’s gay or straight, or whether you’re young or old I think. The start of the free Kate relationship narrative sucks in so many ways.
elissa (2bf39d) — 5/28/2013 @ 4:43 pmNew Mexico … (1) not defined in Subsections C through E of this section perpetrated on a child thirteen to sixteen years of age when the perpetrator is at least eighteen years of age and is at least four years older than the child and not the spouse of that child; or:
Seems she gets away with it there.
In New York, same kind of thing, not a felony because they are within four years (although there might be other charges.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#New_Mexico
Florida doesn’t (at one reading) have any non-felony sex crimes.
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 5:07 pmEugene Volokh actually posted on this issue.
However, that is not currently the law in Florida.
Michael Ejercito (2e0217) — 5/28/2013 @ 5:37 pmI didn’t address whether it is to “‘protect’ teenagers from each other” at all. I’m talking about parents’ legal right to keep unauthorized hands (of any age) out of their children’s pants. You’re on your own little agenda.
L.N. Smithee (4b560c) — 5/28/2013 @ 5:42 pmFACE BOOK
SarahW (b0e533) — 5/28/2013 @ 5:53 pmI’m not sure what happened there. A cut and paste accident mostly likely.
SarahW (b0e533) — 5/28/2013 @ 5:54 pmSo now the crime is “dating?” No, you evil, lying scum! The CRIME here is RAPE! If “Li’l Katie” had taken this other child to a movie and bought her popcorn and candy and told her of her affection, none of this would be happening.
This is all happening because at least on two separate occasions, “Li’l Katie” RAPED the child!
Get your facts straight, you lying scum!
WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 5/28/2013 @ 6:24 pmbut it’s not rape rape
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/28/2013 @ 6:26 pmIt seems she’s not very copacetic at times;
narciso (3fec35) — 5/28/2013 @ 6:29 pmOT, kinda, sorta:
http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2013/05/2016-dream-ticket-formed.html
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 5/28/2013 @ 6:42 pmBeating the bushes for ‘loved ones’:
http://hillbuzz.org/barack-obama-was-high-on-cocaine-during-the-missing-hours-of-the-benghazi-attack-last-september-90072
Moochelle’s word isn’t admissable anyhow.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 5/28/2013 @ 6:46 pmI’m pretty sure if an 18 yr old male did that to a 14 year old girl it’d be some trouble.
SteveG (794291) — 5/28/2013 @ 7:23 pmGood thing no one texted pictures… that’d get everyone a felony charge
“One can even imagine legal rules that draw this distinction, and constitutional rules that uphold such a distinction.”
Michael Ejercito – Probably even marriage following Prof. Volokh’s logic.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 7:36 pmWhat “harm” are you talking about? Who was harmed? How?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:39 am
— No pregnancy, No STD, No foul!
Years and years worth of therapy, plus a reduced quality of life? Meh.
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:00 pmAnd now she’s “harboring and abetting a minor runaway”? Do you people even listen to yourselves?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:43 am
— Um, “you people”? WHO are you, then?
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:05 pmAll Kate’s parents are asking for is mercy. They want the charges reduced to a misdemeanor so Kate’s life is not ruined. Punish her, yes, but do so with compassion.
Comment by Marty Reeh (d4c120) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:44 am
— Yes, ALL they want is ‘mercy’; that’s why they are alleging homophobic bias behind the filing of charges.
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:16 pmMUST. CRIMINALIZE. EVERYTHING.
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:50 am
— By all means, go forth and circulate you petition to replace the statutory rape laws with an “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed” rule. Good luck.
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:19 pmFor those claiming that convicting Kate and sending the lesbian predator to prison to teach her she can’t rape girls as she pleases is going to “ruin her life” -oh the drama queens – let’s consider society’s reality for a second here:
Her life is not going to be ruined. After she gets out of prison, she will be welcomed at any liberal university with a high rate of promiscuity, sexual harassment, and STD spreading, not to mention abortions. She will get a degree and be invited to join the high ranks of GLAAD to work on their “woman-girl love ” department and promote sexual exploitation of kids across America, throwing hundreds of kids under the bus.
Or she will start her own disguised underage lesbian porn production company and win at Cannes (see new movie “Blue is the warmest color”), which promotes adults to target kids as sexual objects in the same way.
There’s the bright future of a homosexual sexual exploiter in our society thanks to liberals. Meanwhile all the kids that are currently being exploited and abused are really having their lives ruined, and they have no rights when it comes to a life without a noxious, harmful environment regarding sexuality.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:24 pm…does anyone think that sending this girl to prison and basically destroying her life for the “crime” of dating her classmate is going to leave anyone better off? Who, exactly? Who would that help?
(And yes, I’d ask the same question regardless of the genders of the people involved.)
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:11 am
We didn’t hold a gun on this supposedly poor misunderstood yute, and force her to statutorily rape a 14 year old. SHE chose to do that herself, and is the only one that is responsible for ruining her own life!
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:25 pmI, like a lot of kids, “ran away” a couple of times when I was a teenager, too. It always involved just going over to a friend’s house while I cooled off. Shockingly, nobody started flinging around criminal charges.
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:58 am
— Was your friend an 18-year-old that was sticking things into your 14-year-old body?
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:32 pmNo?
Then WTF are you talking about?
Did we loose CTD? I asked CTD a couple of questions almost 5 hours ago and no answer.
I wonder if by CTD’s silence, it means CTD is a child molester? Not saying CTD is a child molester, just wondering why CTD hasn’t answered my questions.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:33 pmI wonder what the Boy Scouts of America think about this development.
Or Girl Scouts, for that matter.
Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:33 pmYou mistake me. My point is that neither of these two teenage high school students are “grown-up” in any sense.
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:01 am
— And that’s a problem with the law itself. The question at-hand is the application of the law.
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:37 pmIn the far left compassionate liberal mind nobody but conservatives are responsible for their actions. Well conservatives are responsible for actions projected on them by far left liberals too. Also, when I was a freshman I did not share any classes with seniors so I don’t see how a freshman can be a “classmate” of a senior.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:40 pmSomething can simultaneously be a “problem” and also “not a crime.” You get that, right?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:02 am
— And AGAIN you argue the law, rather than its application.
Bor•ing.
Icy (4b226c) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:42 pmSomething can simultaneously be a “problem” and also “not a crime.” You get that, right?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:02 am
AND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Something can simultaneously be a “problem” and also is a “CRIME”, just like it is in this case!
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/28/2013 @ 8:50 pmi just want everyone to be happy
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:00 pm“…does anyone think that sending this girl to prison and basically destroying her life for the “crime” of dating her classmate is going to leave anyone better off? Who, exactly? Who would that help?”
First, raping and sexually exploiting children is not equal to “dating” them.
Second, she should get two years in prison plus be registered as a sex offender, just as other such offenders.
Who will be better off?
A lot of people, like 350 millions of them, and that includes every single child, but not only the children. Society as a whole is much better off.
Prison sends a nice and clear message to liberals who think they can sexually exploit and rape children whenever they feel like it. And it’s too bad her parents and the whole GLAAD directorate can’t accompany her.
Although some commenters are wondering if a civil suit against the parents may also be possible down the road.
Kaitlyn Hunt’s Parents – Aiding and Abetting Their Daughter to Commit Statutory Rape?
http://alessandrareflections.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/kaitlyn-hunts-parents-aiding-and-abetting-their-daughter-to-commit-statutory-rape/
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:04 pmIf by Florida law, its not a felony because they are less than 4 years apart, then how can a sex offender registry be required? I’m not understanding that part.
Claire (b68dfd) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:07 pmIf by Florida law, its not a felony because they are less than 4 years apart, then how can a sex offender registry be required? I’m not understanding that part.
Comment by Claire
======================
felony 2nd degree if victim is between 12 and 16 and perp is 18 or older – but IANAL
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:25 pm“Four years apart” has nothing to do with this case or the applicable law. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0800/0800ContentsIndex.html Where did that come from?
nk (875f57) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:43 pmBecause if you had taken the time to read just some of the 200 plus comments you would have known that Kaitlyn Hunt was 18 when she started her “relationship” with the 14 year old Miss Smith. That is 4 years apart so the Romeo and Juliet exemption of less than 4 years apart does not apply. Your question has been answered several times during the day. Here’s a hint, think of the comments as additional information to the post by individuals other than the poster.
Under Florida law Kaitlyn Hunt committed a felony and is guilty of being a sexual predator which requires that she register as a sex offender. Kaitlyn Hunt was offered a deal where she would not have had to register as a sex offender, but she refused the deal.
A 14 year old girl does not have the emotional maturity to have sexual relations. The pretty, popular, cheer leader took advantage of Miss Smith and raped her. Kaitlyn Hunt deserves to go to jail. Every parent in Florida who doesn’t want their 14 year old child raped deserves to have Kaitlyn Hunt incarcerated.
With Kaitlyn Hunt in jail every school should in Florida should then have the responsibility to point out to students that sex with a minor is a crime and if a student or teacher has sex with a minor, they will spend time in jail and may be labeled for the rest of their life a sexual predator.
Any more questions?
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:43 pmThe 18 year old certainly is. She can vote, sign contracts, get married, borrow money on her credit, buy a gun, and even buy cigarettes. If you’re sayin 18 year olds aren’t grown up, perhaps they shouldn’t be allowed to do any of those very adult activities.
Chuck Bartowski (e59278) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:51 pmWhile they were 14 and 18 when they started, it appears that they are 44 months apart in age, which is less than four years.
At this point, I almost think the thing for Ms. Hunt to do is to illegally immigrate to New Zealand or Australia, changing her name. Regardless of what the courts do, her name is ruined.
And that, sadly, is the message to give your children.
htom (412a17) — 5/28/2013 @ 9:57 pm“Regardless of what the courts do, her name is ruined.”
htom – She should thank her parents for kicking off the publicity campaign about her case. It seems to have done a world a good.
How much money have the parents made from their daughter’s missteps?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:07 pmHere’s a message, “don’t have sex with a minor if you don’t want to go to jail and have your life ruined”. I know it’s a simple message, but it’s far less costly than changing your name and moving to New Zealand or Australia. Sex with a minor is a crime. Don’t be a sexual predator.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:08 pmThanks htom.
Claire (b68dfd) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:13 pmSo is the Romeo and Juliet exception something the prosecutor can decline to use or is it up to the judge to apply or not? If its up to the prosecutor, it seems like they took a pass on it. For extenuating circumstances? Which ones, I wonder.
And Tanny, you can refrain from providing an answer until after you sober up. Thanks!
we should put kaitlin in our collective mama pouch and help her through the bewildering storms of adolescence then laters we can all go out to eat somewhere what takes american express and celebrate
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:25 pmClaire,
I am sober. I don’t drink because I don’t like the taste of alchohol. Insinuating that I am drunk (an ad hominem attack) doesn’t change the truthfulness of my comment or the fact that your question had already been answered by commenters other than myself and if you had been courteous and read the previous comments, then you would have already known the answer.
If you had read any of my previous comments you would have known that I was molested at 7, 10, and 14. At 14, though it was consensual I was not emotionally mature enough or ready for sex. I don’t understand what extenuating circumstances you’re talking about. An 18 year old woman took advantage of a 14 year old girl. It’s not hard to understand. If you think this is about homophobia, please read the first comment by nk.
If Kaitlyn Hunt is allowed to go free then that is not equal protection under the law and any other person convicted under that law should also be set free giving a free pass for 18 year olds to rape anyone they please.
And yes, I’m angry about those who don’t take this seriously. What if the minor girl was 13, would it make a difference or would you give the sexual predator freedom for “extenuating circumstances”?
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:55 pmClaire,
If you don’t like the law, work with legislators to have the law changed or repealed. According to Blackstone, laws are made so that we can get along with each other. If you believe that a law is unfair or unjust then work to get the law changed. Don’t ignore the law. If we ignore the law then there is anarchy. Which laws do we obey? Who decides what laws to obey? Why obey any laws at all?
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:11 pmI am suspicious of the prosecutor and the parents, who stated, “Our daughter will not be gay”. I find that very telling.
Oh, really?
I’d say it’s more telling for anyone to believe the parents of the young girl are somehow politicizing the situation when Hunt is the one who refused a plea bargain and — most tellingly — is being defended by the usual suspects, referring to the pro-GLBT crowd, and, most certainly, the sickening pro-NAMBLA types out there.
This kind of story, in tandem with all the same-sex-marriage lunacy, on top of recent news about the Boy Scouts of America changing their bylaws to allow homosexual young boys (presumably ones who are flamboyant and demonstrative?) as members — is accommodating gay adults who want to be troop leaders far behind? — is one more manifestation of how increasingly dumbed down, desensitized and Sodom-and-Lot-ized (or ancient Greek-ized) we’re becoming.
BTW, for those who think human behavior is rather inflexible and doesn’t require the existence of social boundaries (or social mores) — eg, “why would anyone choose to be in a same-sex relationship/marriage if they could choose something else?!” — consider the following…
^ I’m waiting for researchers to initiate studies that look into the way that leftist/liberal biases (which pours out of people at, for example, the New York Times, etc) appear to be as fundamental in influencing behavior, sexuality included, as anything else.
Mark (aa8ab9) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:41 pmFor any who think that Kaitlyn Hunt should get off because there may be less than 4 years difference in age, the Florida law does not appear to relieve her of jail time. Here’s the relative law.
Here’s a short summary of the law.
Kaitlyn Hunt and the Romeo and Juliet problem
Remember that prosecutors offered a plea deal where Kaitlyn Hunt would plead guilty to somewhat lesser felony charges, do two years of house arrest followed by supervised parole, and not have the same level of permanent sex offender status. Kaitlyn Hunt declined the offer. So it appears that since Miss Smith is 14 which is under 16, under the law Kaitlyn Hunt still gets jail time.
Claire,
I hope that explains to you and others the law and circumstances of the charge without any anger.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:56 pmStalinists don’t believe parents should be able to protect their children.
Children belong to the state. Note his comment:
It never occurs to the dude (or if it does he doesn’t let on) that the parents want to be reassured about something connected to their child’s well being. Like, I dunno, they want to be reassured when their kids go to school they are being protected against older teens who might exploit them.
No! Not in CTD’s world. These parents just have an irrational need to be stroked.
In another news flash to CTD, not all Stalinists were actively putting dissidents in the Gulag. Some were just innocently engaging in propaganda.
Keep it up, CTD.
Steve57 (9b1cdb) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:16 amI hope everyone realizes my use of the word “innocently” in the prior post was entirely sarcastic.
Steve57 (9b1cdb) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:20 amComment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:10 am
This isn’t some middle-aged creep diddling fifth-graders. These were two teenagers, going to the same high school, who were in a consensual relationship with each other.
— So, if their ages were 19 & 13 it still wouldn’t be a big deal?
Sometimes I don’t want to live on this planet anymore…
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:17 am— Don’t let gravity (or us) stop you. Fly, be free!
There are kids 14 to 18 attending this school–you going to tell me this isn’t going on? Why aren’t they being punished?
Comment by Marty Reeh (d4c120) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:12 am
— For the same reason that not everyone that runs a stop sign is punished.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:23 amAnd if we think that 14 year-olds bumping uglies with 18 year-olds is some problem grave enough to send teenagers to prison for, maybe we shouldn’t force these two groups to spend hours and hours together every day?
Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 5/28/2013 @ 10:14 am
— And now, ladies & gentlemen, if I may misdirect your attention away from the center ring and over to the far corner where someone somehow is causing the events in the center ring to take place . . .
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:28 amWell if this was an opposite sex couple the DA would probably have pled down to a misdemeanor and not required sex offender registry like he has on the large majority of cases of this in his county. I have to think there is some homophobia involved as he refused to do that and would only offer felony charges.
Comment by KLH (dd892a) — 5/28/2013 @ 11:31 am
— You “have to think” that? If the Daily Kos told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:44 amThe liars who whine about “ruining Kate’s life” are deliberating ignoring the fact that she was offered a plea deal with no jail time and the opportunity to convince a judge she didn’t deserve to be put on the sex offender registry, or only for a limited time, under the “Romeo and Juliet” law in Florida.
She wants a walk and perhaps a reality show, and she figured out the liberals are just stupid and immoral enough to help her out.
They also attempt to portray a 14 year old “consenting” to a relationship, but she could not do so under the law. They don’t like to talk about the romantic details of a first penetration in a school restroom stall. Yeah, it’s “love,” all right.
Estragon (19fa04) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:52 amDoesn’t everyone know that 18 year old teens cannot be expected to control their animal urges, and that they must be allowed to have sex with 14 year olds whenever, and where-ever? You know, it’s kind of like you can’t paper train a dog, after all their animal urge requires them to piddle all over the carpet.
Oh wait! You say you can paper train a dog? Hmmmm, they must be more intelligent than your average teenager.
peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:35 amSpeaking of creepy, you know what is also creepy that about this case?
I’ve never seen or heard about any 18 yr old woman anywhere who tried to “date” a 14 yr old boy – as in a romantic relationship. That is weird. It goes to show how perverted Kaitlyn and her supporters are.
18 yr old women, first of all, in my frame of reference, are going off to college. So the first picture of an 18 yr old that I have is a freshman at college – and such a person is not going to want to “date” someone who is 14. Even if they are still stuck in HS. As a mother of two teen boys said yesterday: when dating, her 19 yr old said that any difference of more than 2 years started to feel creepy to him, since the maturity differences are so big at that stage.
The only way I can imagine an 18 yr old woman wanting to “date” a 14 yr old boy (as in romantically) is if it’s a cover for perverted sex and to take advantage of the boy. The “dating” is because she is sexually targeting the boy – it’s not romantic at all. It’s a pedophile attitude towards the boy. We also know of older male teens who have a homosexuality problem and are incredibly perverted, who will target younger boys of any age for sex.
desperate that they are to normalize their homosexuality problems, every weird, predatory, and creepy attitude and behavior regarding sexuality is claimed to be normal by people with a homosexuality agenda.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:19 amEmily Bazelon is Dahlia Lithwick with a better CV. What’s the point of refuting a political activist who disguises herself as a legal analyst?
Scrutineer (0b6bc0) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:12 amWhich means she’s Mo Dowd with a law degree,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:13 amThis is interesting.
Man Charged With Statutory Rape Of Teenager
They use the word man over and over again, as if to reinforce their prejudice. Why is Hunt a “Florida teen”? Not a “woman” at 18?
For the North Carolina teen there’s no abiguity about what his station is before the law. He’s a man. Twice! At 19. Isn’t his future going to be ruined?
Hunt’s victim is called the “the younger girl”, or “the alleged victim”. Emphasizing that they are both precious little things, and we can’t tell if there was a victim really!
Mizelle’s victim was Raped with a capital “R” – in the headline!
Little precious lesbian has been expelled from school, and this is an injustice because she is being forced to go to a different school. Homophobes!
Young Mizelle is sitting in a cell until his trial unless his folks can cover a $150,000 bond.
Interesting.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:15 amI can’t even fathom how a 14 yr old could be remotely interesting to an 18 yr old. When my twin daughters were 14 they were totally consumed with all things Harry Potter, as were their circle of friends. They were gangly, awkward, silly and giggly…not just mine but the friends as well. An 18 yr old senior, cheerleader or B-ball letterman having legitimate romantic feelings towards them? Hardly, it would be predatory.
Angelo (f7abcc) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:21 amMs Hunt had her chance for a plea deal, she rejected it and now she must play her cards
I did ask CTD if it was a child molester and never heard back. When I gave Claire an honest answer that had been given several times before, she insinuated that I was drunk. They don’t look at the merits of your comment, but change the subject or attack you personally never addressing what you said.
There is a big difference in maturity between a 14 year old and an 18 year old. I’ve never known 14 and 18 year olds to be in the same class, so they aren’t classmates, but what difference would it make? So what we have here is an 18 year old woman who raped a 14 year old child. The 18 year old committed a felony and should be punished for the safety of other 14 year olds.
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:26 amC’mon, FL has an “equal rights” clause in its state constitution.
If you allow females to have relations with minor female teens, how far do you think you are from lawsuits demanding equal treatment from the “National Man-Boy Love Association”??
Of COURSE it’s about pushing the Gay Agenda.
Smock Puppet, Reactionary Thug and Bon Vivant (83082b) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:00 amHere is a link to the CBS local TV’s sit down interview with the 14 year old’s parents. I had seen written excerpts from it, but had not seen the film before. I think it offers additional context regarding this story and may also be of interest for those of us who study body language. Say what you want about the legal aspects of the case which clearly most people are focused on–but this story is also about a family that does not know what hit them.
http://cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7597.shtml
elissa (883315) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:06 amOh, and one of the comments notes that NAMBLA appears to be involved in the case already.
Whoodathunkit?
Smock Puppet, Reactionary Thug and Bon Vivant (83082b) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:13 amFor the same reason legally adult gang members getting shot for gang activities are routinely included in statistics about “teens killed by guns” — the picture is not some tough thug that you’d be very concerned to be alone with in an alley, it’s about Little Johnny Fauntleroy next door who is nice when he comes to pick up the money for delivering papers around the neighborhood…
Can you spell “AGENDA”?
…I knew ya could.
Smock Puppet, Reactionary Thug and Bon Vivant (83082b) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:19 amSo, it’s no mystery that this story is all about
K Hunt?
Right…?
Smock Puppet, Reactionary Thug and Bon Vivant (83082b) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:30 amTo the degree that this thread serves a purpose in clarifying information, thanks elissa for that link.
And thanks Smock for pointing out the NAMBLA link.
Reading the comments at elissa’s link you see the work of the water carriers for the agenda, claiming how fake and rehearsed the interview was and claiming (without quotes or documentation) how “hateful” the mom of the younger girl was towards gay people.
Stacey McCain mentioned how people were making the issue of what was wrong with him for “being so interested in the sex lives of 14 yo’s”. We had some examples of that earlier in this thread.
Reminds me of “Jane Roe” of Roe v Wade saying how she was caught up in a swirl of what people were doing around her and that she herself was not at all initiating the fight.
While we are quick to point out that the main issue is 18 and 14 and not about homosexuality, which I think is true…
what is wrong with the fact (assuming it is true) that parents of a 14 yo do not wish their child to be seduced into a same sex relationship/lifestyle by an 18 yo?
Everybody who is pro-gay marriage says that “you still have the major influence in your child’s life no matter what is said in school, etc.”- that supporting gay marriage is only about “being fair to gays”
This is an example showing it is not just about being “fair to gays”, it is about isolating and marginalizing anyone who “still believes” in the fundamental structure of the family. [I am purposefully NOT going to use the word “traditional”- that has too much of the connotation of ‘well, we’ve just always done it this way’ rather than, ‘it’s always been done this way because it’s right’]. The full Alinsky treatment of what was once thought to be the typical American family.
And KH’s life is being ruined, but much more by the people using her and her family than the Smith family ever wanted. But that’s the way it is with causes, you have to sacrifice along the way, children, families, millions of unborn, 20-25 million in the revolution…no big deal.
Don’t harrass homosexuals, let consenting adults do what they want in private, if some want to extend certain legal protections of the rights of a “couple” to gays go ahead.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:58 amBut when you say “gay is great or else”, that’s another thing.
Is there any evidence?
Michael Ejercito (2e0217) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:09 amOh, and one of the comments notes that NAMBLA appears to be involved in the case already.
That wouldn’t be surprising, although such people are so extreme and mentally unbalanced that unless a story involves males and the activity of male homosexuality, an organization like that probably will yawn about Kaitlyn Hunt. Such a response apparently is happening with at least a few other leftists. IOW, this case is to the GLBT agenda what the case of the abortion doctor in Philadephia was to the cause of pro-choice.
^ This really is one more recent example — along with things like the IRS debacle, the blatant dishonesty of Bengahzi, the PC lunacy of Nidal Hasan, and, again, the fetus murder mill in Philly — of how the gut reaction of various liberals is very corrupt, very unreliable, and astonishingly irresponsible.
I’d be surprised if Hunt’s parents were not dyed-in-the-wool liberals, if not ultra-liberals. Certainly their biggest supporters are of the left. So I’d be surprised if the parents and their socio-political circle don’t say things like…
“Young people need to be given lots of deference and automatic respect, because it’s old-fashioned, prudish and inhumane to think otherwise!”
“We strongly support the goals of states like California which now mandate that public-school textbooks include information on famous gays, lesbians, bisexuals and the transgendered!”
“Why would a person choose to have same-sex relationships?! It’s not a matter of free will or free choice!”
Mark (aa8ab9) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:18 amyes this is just like the IRS thing plus also Benghazi
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:36 am* Why would an 18 year old have a dildo/vibrator?
Tanny O'Haley (1df9d3) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:52 am* Did the parents give it to their daughter?
* Did they know she owned a vibrator?
* How long did Kaitlyn Hunt own a vibrator?
* Has she been sexually active for a long time?
* Did the parents know?
* Why weren’t the Hunts concerned about the age difference between their daughter and Miss Smith?
* If the parents knew their daughter was having sex with Miss Smith are they culpable for damages?
* Can the Hunts be charged with a crime?
* Did the Hunts know that Miss Smith had run away from home and why she ran away?
* Why did the Hunts not call the Smiths to tell them where their child was? They must have known the Smiths would be worried about their daughter.
* Are the Hunts like those parents who hold beer parties for their children and their children’s underage friends, because, they’re going to do it any way?
* What responsibility do the Hunts have for what happened to Miss Smith?
18 year olds can actually legally buy their own vibrators in Barack Obama’s America
I know it’s a lot to get your head around
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:03 amThe best one is a Toshiba and was on the front page of Amazon as a recommended Mother’s Day gift, but they call it a full body massager or something like that. I’m serious, I saw it from a posting at Reddit, and read the Amazon review, but I’m not going to try to link it for you.
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:08 ambookmarking
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:08 am“18 year olds can actually legally buy their own vibrators in Barack Obama’s America”
Mr. Feets – I thought they were giving them out in public schools in Barack Obama’s America, but nobody tells me nothing.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:08 am“18 year olds can actually legally buy their own vibrators in Barack Obama’s America”
Mr. Feets – How about Fleshlights?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:12 amHitachi not Toshiba
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:13 amI always gave my mother flowers for Mothers day. I thought that was what she wanted. Now I am worried. Maybe I should have been more creative in my gifting choices.
elissa (883315) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:15 amA brunch at Baker’s Square and a French Silk pie to take home is nice too.
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:16 amA 14 year old teenager is not an adult, but a child. A child only has a right to sex in a very sick mind. Are you a child molester, CTD? It seems like you’re trying to make the case for minors to consent to have sex with adults.
Most of the folks I have run into that want age of consent lowered, or ignored, are merely child diddlers that want unrestricted access to indulge their sexual desires. Note that they won’t refer to them as “children”.
SGT Ted (0ffd9b) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:18 amomg if your mom ever found a fleshlight in your room she’d probably have a melanoma right there on the spot
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:20 amI don’t think this older girl needs to go to jail or even have a record. She’s no hero but a sex offender… come on.
HOWEVER, reading between the lines of their phone call before the younger girl ran away, it’s clear that she was not secure with Kaitlyn, obviously very sexually advanced, and feared perhaps she was being taken advantage of. When one party gas to ask “do you love me” or “did it mean anything” it’s clear it’s a one-sided deal.
Patricia (be0117) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:47 am“I always gave my mother flowers for Mothers day. I thought that was what she wanted. Now I am worried. Maybe I should have been more creative in my gifting choices.”
elissa – I was at a Mother’s Day celebration about ten years ago and witnessed a 20 something daughter give her mother a handheld personal massager (non-phallic shaped) as a gift. The men present started snickering behind their hands and left the room. It was not a proud moment.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:47 amAngelo wrote:
It’s Ronald McDonald’s fault.
When I was an 18 year old, living in a small town which didn’t have a McDonald’s, the 14 year old girls looked like 14 year old girls. I went off to college, and they built a McDonald’s. When I came back, the 13 year old girls looked like they were 17, the 14 year old girls looked like they were 19, and the 18 year old girls looked like they were 22.
What could be more obvious?
The small town Dana (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 9:13 amThere is certainly truth to that Dana, as nutritional status has made a significant contribution to people getting taller, etc, as well.
In the back of my mind I’ve wondered whether use of growth hormone in meet has played a role as well- not an accusation as much as a scattered thought.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 9:29 am
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 9:30 ammeet, meat, but you knew thatTanny asked:
* If the parents knew their daughter was having sex with Miss Smith are they culpable for damages?
It seems we’ll have to wait for the trial to know the answer. I would think if charges can’t be brought based on “aiding and abetting” maybe based on a failure to report abuse of a child.
During the 2012 legislative session, the Florida legislature passed HB 1355/SB 1816 which had a significant impact on the Chapter 39 of Florida Statutes, the law relating to mandatory reports of child abuse. These changes to the mandatory reporting law will be effective July 1, 2012.
Here are some points to remember about the new law:
Reports of child abuse should be made to the Florida Department of Children and Families (DCF). Abuse reports can be made through the DCF statewide hotline (call 1-800-96-ABUSE) or through the DCF website.
Everyone in Florida is a mandated reporter but some people are professionally mandated reporters. For example, social workers, medical and mental health professionals, teachers and other school officials must give their names and occupation or place of business when calling.
Child abuse by parents, caregivers, any other adults and juvenile sex offenders should be reported to DCF’s statewide hotline.
Failure to report child abuse to DCF will be now a third degree felony (previously this was a first degree misdemeanor).
http://www.fcasv.org/publications/newsletters/fcasv-insight-summer-2012/florida%E2%80%99s-new-mandatory-reporting-law
04/13/2012 • Signed by Officers and presented to Governor
04/27/2012 • Approved by Governor
04/29/2012 • Chapter No. 2012-155
Have to see what they mean by “child abuse” and if it fits in this case.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:49 amReading between the lines of the prosecution’s version of an edited version of a phone call where one of the parties is aware of the recording and is helping police … probably shows more of the mind of the prosecution than the mind of the person deceived.
Am I the only one who wonders if both of these young women were sexually abused before they’d even met, and that this might have been their first mutually consenting (in the desirous sense, not the legal sense) relationship?
Fourteen-year-olds don’t desire … some people are not remembering their youth very well, or at all.
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:58 amTanny, I appreciate calm responses. Really. I did “bother” to read all the comments here, BTW, and also at RS McCains and the info conflicted, hence the request for intepretation. You guys are the legal eagles.
Claire (b68dfd) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:58 amYou are presuming I have a strong opinion about the Florida law for some reason. I do not, as I’m just starting to understand it, and how it may be different from other states. Personal feelings have nothing to do with it.
She declined a plea bargain that offered to remove or not apply something that wasn’t even a sure thing in the first place. That makes it sound like even if she petitioned to be released from the registry, “they” weren’t going to allow it. So my question is who is they? A judge? Who does she petition? Because now, im sure if she loses and gets put on the registry she will petition. Who makes that decision in Florida? I wonder what their decision would be and what went into it, because if there’s one thing I know, theres ALWAYS more to the story than people are willing to let on.
Comment by Tanny O’Haley (1df9d3) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:52 am
* Why would an 18 year old have a dildo/vibrator?
* Did the parents give it to their daughter?
* Did they know she owned a vibrator?
* How long did Kaitlyn Hunt own a vibrator?
* Has she been sexually active for a long time?
— Your other questions have relevance. These have none.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:05 amAnd the odds that Kaitlyn Hunt was sexually abused as a minor are. . . .
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:06 amWhen I was fourteen I desired Loni Anderson.
Big time.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:08 amPerhaps the 18 year-old was sexually abused when she was 14.
[Cy•cli•cal]
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:12 amIt has been asked how Miss Hunt could have found a girl four years younger so attractive. From what I’ve been able to gather, Miss Hunt is on the petite side, just a shade over 5 feet tall, while her victim is significantly taller. Their ages are their ages, and that is what matters under the law, but it is possible that Miss Hunt didn’t really perceive that big of a difference between them. That’s no legal defense, but it may have something to do with why Miss Hunt didn’t perceive this to be so bad.
The Dana who looked it up (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:26 amAs for the failure to report child abuse, the parents would have to know that such was occurring. At what point did they discover that the victim, whom they have described as being tall and much more mature looking, was only 14? If they reasonably believed that the victim was old enough (and, in Florida, the “Romeo and Juliet” law would cover down to 16), they wouldn’t have been under any obligation to report it.
Did they even know about this? Other than the instance where the victim stayed overnight — of which the parents may not have been aware at the time — the encounter described happened at school. I have a difficult time thinking that Miss Hunt came home and said, “Mommy, mommy, you’ll never guess what I did in school today?”
The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:38 amIt has been the better party of a day since our friends on the left were asked, if they thing that the age of consent laws in the Sunshine State are unfair, at what age would they set them? Thus far, no one has given us a number.
Why is that?
The Dana who noticed (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:47 amI was kind of hoping that the Florida Romeo and Juliet law had been passed between January of 1999 and January of 2007, so we could all say, “It’s (Jeb) Bush’s fault!” Alas! The law was passed in 2007, but after Mr Bush stepped down.
The Dana who checked (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:52 amPeople mature emotionally at different rates. Not all 18-y-o are equally emotionally mature, and not all 14-y-o are equally emotionally mature. Some are ahead of the curve, so to speak, and some are behind. Add 10% or 20% to 14, 15.4 or 16.8; subtract 10% or 20% from 18, 16.2 or 14.6. (Yes, do the additions and subtractions the other way and the emotional age gap becomes greater.)
It could be possible (although unlikely) that it’s an aggressive 14 year old who is more mature and sexually precocious, leading an immature 18 year old into thinking the 18 year old is doing the seducing.
If 18 has severe untreated ADHD she might well be 25% behind in emotional maturity (and in self control as well, although that’s a part of emotional maturity) and an emotional match to a someone at the peak of the curve at 14.
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:56 amLeftist Debate Strategy:
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:57 am1) State your position
2) Ridicule the opposition’s position as discriminatory
3) Declare the matter settled
4) Run away
htom, that’s some Olympic sized leaps you are making there. Very impressive. Claire, nice apology for the Taney drunk ad hominem.
Gazzer (0efe8c) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:58 amDana — I’m not at all convinced that absolute calendar age is the appropriate way to set such limits. It’s traditional, but I’m not sure it’s wise. I’m inclined to think that middle school of 7th, 8th, and 9th grades with high school of 10th, 11th, and 12th grades would remove some — but certainly not all — of the mismatching by calendar age. (Note that it’s entirely possible for 14 to be in 10th grade and 18 in 12th.)
Sweden’s looks most reasonable — 15, generally, with 18 for those with trust positions and a general “close in maturity” exception (wikipedia)
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:14 pmGazzer — it’s easy when you’re more interested in understanding people, and having them being happy with each other, than in punishing them.
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:17 pmThe precise things that the law covers and does not cover and how, are probably not anything anyone would agree with. The laws have probably been heavily influenced by notions of what courts might decide is or is not equal justice under law, regardless of whether most people would say certain situations are really identical or not and sometimes, by simplicity and also a drive toward toughness or mildness.
On top of that, it seems judging by the comments -I didn’t check – it seems like Kaitlyn’s parents are distorting the truth and lying. (ages when this happened, motive of prosecutors, * willfulness.)
* They may be looking for, as an alleged motive for prosecution or prosecutorial toughness, something that many people would agree with but at the same time the law now may not treaty as a legitimate consideration)
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:19 pmhtom- I think part of the problem here is that there was little interest in understanding people in the beginning, because if that was anyone’s intention they sort of blew it when they turned it into a nation wide news story.
Unfortunately, you can’t make laws based on the estimated psychological age of those involved.
And yes, since KH’s life is plastered all around for everyone to see, abused people often are the ones who abuse others.
This was not a good way to help KH, in case they thought they were doing that at some point.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 12:49 pmAs for the failure to report child abuse, the parents would have to know that such was occurring. At what point did they discover that the victim, whom they have described as being tall and much more mature looking, was only 14? If they reasonably believed that the victim was old enough (and, in Florida, the “Romeo and Juliet” law would cover down to 16), they wouldn’t have been under any obligation to report it.
Did they even know about this? Other than the instance where the victim stayed overnight — of which the parents may not have been aware at the time — the encounter described happened at school. I have a difficult time thinking that Miss Hunt came home and said, “Mommy, mommy, you’ll never guess what I did in school today?”
Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:38 am
=============
Not saying that there isn’t a lot of information missing but… legally, it’s not only what they knew and when, but how much they can get away with lying about knowing if they did.
I would think that’s where the problem lies. Not saying that they must have known, but might have quite suspected. I know lots of liberal parents who do suspect but never ask their children for proof- and it’s happening. It’s a DADT game.
the mother has stated: “They began a dating relationship,” Smith recalled. “Never in my mind did I consider what that meant.”
yeah, right… an 18 yr old going after a 14yr old and her adult mother “never did consider what that meant” – ain’t buying it. Victorian age was over quite some time ago…
Then, just with what has been reported:
Hunt-Smith wrote that the girls had started dating at the beginning of the school year, and that their “mutual consenting relationship” had been known to both parents for months prior to the arrest.
and
“Kate didn’t know what she was doing was ‘wrong’ or illegal. There was no intent to hurt anybody or commit a crime.” says mother
Now that’s a load of it.
Because there is the episode of “running away” in january, after victim’s parents claim they had already told Kate to stay away from their daughter. The victim’s parents apparently reported their daughter missing to authorities. Then she was found with Kate, with whom she had spent the night.
And what? Kate “didn’t know that what she was doing was wrong?” C’mon.
No one said anything to Kate’s parents about the incident? Doesn’t fit. The victim’s parents certainly sound like they would be very angry. an 18 yr old runs off with your daughter, gives you one hell of a grief, and after you find out, you don’t pick up the phone and call the 18 yr old’s parents to ask what your daughter was doing spending the night with an adult?
And then that’s how warped liberals are – you have an 18 yr old daughter – and you know that she is in a “relationship” with a 14 yr old girl – which would already send alarm bells ringing for any parent who is not a complete pervert and in collusion of sex with minors – and your daughter brings home said 14 yr old girl to spend the night together and you still have no idea of anything?
Yes, it will be very interesting to know where Kate’s parents were and what they said all through the timeline of this case.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:49 pmR.I.P. Jack Vance, Science Fiction Grand Master
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 1:55 pmAnd I wouldn’t be surprised if because of the running away episode, the victim’s parents quite guessed that their daughter was being sexually exploited by Kate or was running a very high risk of being sexually exploited.
Time to talk to a lawyer or the police right there to lay out your strategy.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:05 pmMD — Yes, pretty much everyone blew it. The two with both the most to lose and least ability to understand and control their behavior (and themselves) are going to bear the weight of their elders’ panic. The parents (all four) come off a little better than the prosecutor, who at best is guilty of pandering his case (it is a male prosecutor, isn’t it?) to the press instead of trying it in court, and at worst I don’t want to think about what he’s done.
Maybe for this we should make laws (or perhaps categorization of criminal acts and punishments) based on estimated psychological ages; if either accused or victim is under 25, both get a PA test by the court. Maybe give those to everyone at 15, 18, 21, and 25, so there’s a baseline to compare the court ordered test to. Give some warning to parents and subject that they’re immature for their age (and so should be more careful), or mature for their age (and are thus in more danger of being treated as fully adult, with less mercy.)
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:09 pm“The parents (all four) come off a little better than the prosecutor”
htom – IDK, did the godbag christofascist Smith family lie about the age of the girls in order to gin up sympathy and media coverage for their daughter?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:20 pmThat’s the reason for my irrelevant questions. Did the parents know how sexually active their was and did they contribute to it?
Tanny O'Haley (c2922b) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:33 pmdaley — I don’t know. Did the prosecution lie about when the relationship began? (I suppose this could be a fuzzy thing about the meaning of “relationship”.)
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:35 pmre: post 290… You left out #5 traditional victory mince
Colonel Haiku (1a103d) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:39 pmI’m quite sure I read somewhere that Katelyn’s parents were 17 either when she was conceived or was born. If true, that might mean something with respect to how they view teenage sex in general and how they mis-handled this. (Or, that might just be another one of the “facts” in this case that are not true at all.) It’s hard to keep count. Anybody know, or remember seeing it to verify or link? I think he’s only about 35 now, though.
elissa (883315) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:51 pm“I don’t know. Did the prosecution lie about when the relationship began?”
htom – What do you mean you don’t know? I would take the time to check the record a little more thoroughly.
With respect to the “relationship”, is there some controversy over when it started to which you are referring?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:53 pmthe only facts that matter in this case is that a person over the age of consent was engaging in sex acts with a minor child.
that’s a crime and the perp needs to be prosecuted with the full weight of the law. a society that won’t protect the innocent is no society at all.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:00 pm“Did the prosecution lie about when the relationship began?”
Don’t know. Affidavit says around Xmas.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:15 pmdaley — I don’t know what their motivation was. I don’t know what they knew about their daughter’s relationship. I don’t think you do, either.
I’ve seen a number of stories (both pro-KH and anti-KH) that the relationship started when the school year started, the prosecution claims it started in mid-November (and I don’t know if that was before or after KH turned 18.) And what relationship that time has to do with the recorded phone call.
I know a lot of people are commenting based on press releases from the parents, prosecution, and defense; and an edited version of a phone call recorded with the younger girl aware it was being recorded and being prompted by someone. There don’t seem to be many actual facts in un-spun form.
The courts will make a decision. There are days I’m really glad I’m not a judge. Finding truth in this furball is probably impossible, and justice is probably even harder.
Vengence, now, that’s easy to find.
htom (412a17) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:16 pmJesus would be all like I forgive you Kaitlyn
and Kaitlyn would be all like that’s very sweet Jesus but it’s really more the prosecutor and the judge calling the shots here
and Jesus would be all like well I guess we could go get smoothies or something and just hang out
and Kaitlyn would be all like I shaved this morning already but I could go for a caramel macchiato if you’re buying
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:22 pmI don’t care if the perp was 18 or not, and I’m sure the parents of the victim don’t care either.
Let’s say both of the girls were 14, does that suddenly cancel out the parents right not to have their daughter molested at school by a diesel dyke in training?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:35 pmcorrection: affidavit actually says they started “dating” in November and sexual relations started before Xmas 2012.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:49 pmJesus would forgive the sin right after the sinner repented their act.
there is no sign Kaitlyn regrets anything other than getting caught and having to face the consequences of her illegal actions.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:54 pmLet’s say both of the girls were 14, does that suddenly cancel out the parents right not to have their daughter molested at school by a diesel dyke in training?
Comment by papertiger (c2d6da)
============
yes, it does cancel the parents. Parents and children have no rights once homosexual predators want something.
Defending children from homosexual abuse is homophobia! the gheys and the lesbiuns -deformed people that they are- have every right to rape every kid and make every school unsafe – and if you object, you are the one hatin’ on them. It’s bigotry. Stop the hate- Free Kate- didn’t you hear?
See, the issue here is that as long as people continue to fall for the propaganda put out by liberals that homosexuality is normal, homosexual sexual exploitation will only happen more and more often, with younger and younger kids.
And now every boy scout is a walking target for any and all perverted/bisexual homosexual boy.
Who’s not safe in society when people normalize homosexuality?
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:11 pm“Who’s not safe in society when people normalize homosexuality?”
Probably very few, but cower if you must and run for your life, Alessandra. The Sappho traffic copter just reported Billie Jean King lurking in your back yard waiting to pounce.
Jack Klompus (2b072c) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:26 pmThat’s the reason for my irrelevant questions. Did the parents know how sexually active their was and did they contribute to it?
Comment by Tanny O’Haley (c2922b) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:33 pm
— You’re preachin’ to the choir, sister. Let’s draft the “Parents of 18 Year Old Girls Still in High School are Banned from Gifting Them with Sex Toys” Act, and fax it to the Florida legislature ASAP.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:27 pmre: post 290… You left out #5 traditional victory mince
Comment by Colonel Haiku (1a103d) — 5/29/2013 @ 2:39 pm
— Hohophobe.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:29 pm“I don’t know if that was before or after KH turned 18”
htom – First you make a statement about the Smith family and prosecutor acting as badly as the Hunts. Then you deny knowing when the Hunt parents have been lying. Now you say you don’t really know the basic facts about the case.
Why make pronouncements about it then?
Guess what, Kaitlynn birth date is in the arrest affidavit. It is in August. She turned 18 at or before the beginning of the school year. The birthday of the other girl is in April and she just turned 15.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:42 pmThat’s not really up to us to say. Forgiveness is very commonly misunderstood and built into something that is so difficult and unjust that many can’t buy into it… avoiding their own salvation in the process.
Forgiveness means we do not count the wrongness of others against them. We no longer tally the score. It doesn’t mean the action wasn’t wrong, or that the baggage is miraculously gone, or that we’ve forgotten the sin. It definitely doesn’t mean God is relieved from his vengeance… in fact, one of my favorite things about forgiveness is that I can leave the vengeance to God and go back to my own affairs.
Forgiveness is not a blank check, and there is judgment. It’s not my judgment (fortunately, limited as I am). Jesus was all about calling people out for their wrongs, and telling them to take difficult actions to be good people.
Dustin (12e1a0) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:52 pmIt’s kind of like Indians praying to the spirit of the deer to forgive them for killing it before digging in. Now if they had prayed real loud as they were taking aim so the deer could hear and decide for itself whether to forgive or run the hell out of there ….
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:00 pm“Jesus would be all like I forgive you Kaitlyn”
Mr. Feets – Did Kaitlyn nail him in the butt wif her dildo?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:36 pmoh my goodness no
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/29/2013 @ 5:56 pm:\
Dustin (12e1a0) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:04 pmit was Colonel Mustard, in the library, with the candle stick
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/29/2013 @ 6:36 pmSince when does a motorized dildo with mustard sauce on it get to be absolutely OK?
SteveG (794291) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:34 pmBecause some of that Dijon has an afterglow that isn’t entirely pleasant
I like it when Father Reverend Brother Feets goes all 700 PTL Club godbag christofascist on a thread.
Preach it Brutha Feets!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:34 pmMonster Truck Prayer Rally To Free Kate to follow, sponsored by Brutha Feets Traveling Salvation Show.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:38 pmnobody read my whole story about kaitlin and jesus it was actually a parable
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:41 pm327. Yeah, I read it. Moreover, I’ve proven myself, not every paeon has a muse.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:43 pmyou should stick to song writing, feets. ur much better at that than parables, I think.
elissa (883315) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:44 pmWe were told of these days in Romans 1;22-28,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:47 pmand Kaitlyn would be all like that’s very sweet Jesus but it’s really more the prosecutor and the judge calling the shots here
and Jesus would be all like yeah that’s what happened to me too
and Kaitlyn would be like it was nice of you to die for my sins
and Jesus would be like don’t mention it I didn’t want to be a carpenter anyway
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:49 pmso you’re saying it was a tarable parable?
happyfeet wept
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:51 pmLet’s say both of the girls were 14, does that suddenly cancel out the parents right not to have their daughter molested at school by a diesel dyke in training?
Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 3:35 pm
As I said up at #258, while I think the issue can be discussed as simply the age difference and nothing more,
I agree with papertiger in asking the question, “Is there something wrong with parents of a 14 yo not wanting her to be introduced/seduced to a same-sex experience/lifestyle?”
Is it really being “bigoted” to say, “You can go do what you want, but leave my 14 yo out of it”?
I am sure there are some gays who could pass on the whole marriage thing and are happy that people are polite to them and are happy to “live and let live”
but there are those who are not interested in “live and let live”, unless it is in the context “I will live like I want and you will like the way I live”.
I wonder what same sex parents think about the sexuality of children they are raising, anyone know anything about this? Does a lesbian couple fear their child will grow up straight?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:56 pmYou misunderstand his message, pikachu, genuine repentance there would be no problem with, but this culture insists ‘that we don’t want to do we do, and vice versa. Anything that stands in that way, is the real enemy, that is the real target of the Purpose campaign,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:58 pmIt was a fine parable, happyfeet. We’ve been reacting to the third party gay/pedo agenda, and sometimes over-reacting without being certain of the truth, without being kind, and without conferring a benefit. I see that.
From my almost 57 years, this eighteen year old girl is a child too. And she is screwed. There’s no good way out for her.
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:59 pmActually, narciso, I was thinking about that and realized we really need to carry it through to vs. 32, because it some ways it gets worse after v 28, because the eventual judgement is everything “going to hell” on earth and falling apart
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:05 pmand worst of all is not those who fall prey to sinful desires, be they sexual or stealing or lying, but those who actually approve and condone the behavior.
Which is why Jesus is eager for Kaitlyn to receive His forgiveness, go and sin no more, and let God bring something good out of the mess that she has made with much encouragement and enabling by others.
I think itS waaay past time to close comments on this thread
E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:09 pmthank you Mr. nk
I think people are trying to make this mean something when it’s really just something that falls under the column of
stuff what happened in florida recently involving teen lesbians
I’m just so glad not to be related to either of these ones
not that it’s all about me
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:09 pmThis has become a ‘teachable moment, like the last one, nearby, problem all the lessons are wrong;
http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_268748/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=XCoNRrbX
narciso (3fec35) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:15 pmGood story from local Florida news summarizing status:
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7523.shtml?wap=0
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:45 pmYes, it is a helpful article, daleyrocks.
nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:52 pm18 year olds can actually legally buy their own vibrators in Barack Obama’s America
I know it’s a lot to get your head around
Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 8:03 am
I don’t think that’s the body part it’s intended for Mr. Feets!
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:25 pmFrom my almost 57 years, this eighteen year old girl is a child too. And she is screwed. There’s no good way out for her.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 5/29/2013 @ 7:59 pm
Wait a minute. Look at it from the perspective of an 18 year old budding lesbian. She’s gone her whole life looking for a bunk buddy of a like orientation. She has searched so long and hard that she is willing to go to jail rather than give up on this doomed sex partnership.
I’m thinking 3 or 4 years in a women’s correctional facility will be just this side of heaven for her.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:30 pmi know Mr. peed I found a helpful youtube
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:31 pmForgiveness is not a blank check, and there is judgment. It’s not my judgment (fortunately, limited as I am). Jesus was all about calling people out for their wrongs, and telling them to take difficult actions to be good people.
Comment by Dustin (12e1a0) — 5/29/2013 @ 4:52 pm
Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Psalm 103:11-13
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
No judgement for those that accept him, Dustin. How can He judge when He won’t remember the sins? His Son received our judgement on the cross.
When His last words proclaimed what most people know as, “It is finished” or in the Greek as “Telestai” is better translated as “Paid in Full”. The same words were written on a prisoner’s release in that day to show that they could no longer be held accountable for that crime, as it were they had satisfied their sentence as “Paid in Full”.
Scholars got more insight into the meaning of this expression a few years ago after archaeologists dug up in the Holy Land a tax collector’s office that was almost intact, with all the tax records and everything. There were two stacks of tax records and one of them had the word, tetelestai, on the top. In other words, “paid in full.” These people don’t owe anything anymore. So, when Jesus said “It is finished,” what is finished? It is the debt we owe God by our sins. It has been paid in full.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:59 pmI was wondering Mr Feets Caused ifn’ they use the part you suggested, they might chip their teeth!
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:02 pmI’m thinking 3 or 4 years in a women’s correctional facility will be just this side of heaven for her.
Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 10:30 pm
— For sure, it must be the dream of every homosexual to be sentenced to prison because they are certain to get laid there.
Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:18 pm– For sure, it must be the dream of every homosexual to be sentenced to prison because they are certain to get laid there.
Comment by Icy (76748a) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:18 pm
I’m not saying it’s ideal. I’m just saying it’s not the end of the world for K.H. If there is anyone equiped to ride out that stretch, and come out the other side fairly intact, it is an 18 year old lesbian, looking to discover her “true self”.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:41 pmShe’ll probably get a few volunteers to help her on her voyage of self discovery, in prison.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/29/2013 @ 11:44 pmNow the Hunts have hired a PR firm.
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_7739.shtml
And they have Facebook posts by Kaitlyn Hunt saying she knows what she’s doing is wrong.
Tanny O'Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:43 amHere’s a good overview of the case with actual facts. One of the interesting things is that it does not matter if the two are 4 years apart. The law comes into play simply because Miss Smith was under 16. Kaitlyn Hunt could have been 17 and Miss Smith could have been 17. The law would still apply. The 4 year separation in age that atom has been promoting is a myth in Florida. It is the fact Miss Smith is under the age of 16. That’s it.
http://supporthonesty.net/
Tanny O'Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:58 am“Who’s not safe in society when people normalize homosexuality?”
Probably very few,
Comment by Jack Klompus (2b072c)
===============
And you know this how?
Because if LGBT people don’t sexually harass, assault, exploit, or abuse someone on TV in front of everybody, it’s not happening? Do they usually call you to set up an appointment to do it in front of you? Or do you have a pink crystal ball that you consult on the subject to tell you the truth?
Glad to see that you are in the know! Molesters, abusers, batterers, and harassers hide what they do from everyone else, but not from you! Oh that’s how you know.
Self-serving propaganda to normalize homosexuality does work like that.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/30/2013 @ 4:37 am“Who’s not safe in society when people normalize homosexuality?”
Probably very few,
Comment by Jack Klompus (2b072c)
Maybe if we write it out without the contraction.
Who is not safe in society when people…
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/30/2013 @ 5:12 amKaitlyn Hunt – the new Rosa Parks of pedophiles!
https://twitter.com/Jeanette_Runyon/status/339600575366823936
or if you prefer:
The Rosa Parks of statutory rape toilet sex
Every child is a walking target for a perverted LGBT individual who thinks they are normal.
Instead of raping girls at the back of the bus, they want to come to the front and do it.
No more second-class citizens!
They’re queer and they’re here to stay – in the toilets raping your daughters every day.
They have a dream – and it involves underage children and vibrators…
And that’s when they aren’t targetting adults… but one subject at a time…
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/30/2013 @ 5:17 amThe four year provision does not exclude prosecution, Tanny, and I’ve never said it did; it allows for an appeal to remove her name from the registered sex offender list. I suspect that the 14 yo’s parents and the prosecutor would object to that removal. (I’m inclined to think that you would, too.)
The plea deal doesn’t remove the felony child sex violation convictions, change them to misdemeanor charges, allows no appeal (since it’s a guilty plea), and is totally dependent on the judge and prosecution, who can rewrite it to please themselves. She has little to no control of what happens in a plea deal once she pleads guilty. Given that the prosecution has been willing to deceive her in recording the prompted conversation, I see no reason for her to trust him.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 5:30 am309. If I may be permitted, feets’ play here alludes to Jesus and the Samaritan woman, who comes to draw water as Jesus rests at Jacob’s well.
Kaitlyn, unlike the rather more experienced woman of old, however, is unmoved, unawed, unredeemed.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 5/30/2013 @ 5:38 amhtom
there is no 4 year provision in Florida – the four years that people reference is the ages of 12 to 16 which is a felony if she was 17 she would have been charged.
None if any of the facts are right in this case on the side of Hunt.
but given the crude stupid comments including some identifying the victim – yes I know its out there – but – its still wrong and the comments in general – its way past time to shut down comments on this thread
E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 5/30/2013 @ 5:47 amWho identified the victim in this thread?
JD (df45ac) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:11 amBasically, they have to release the squirrels JD, because the substance of their view, really is unacceptable, it’s part and parcel with the AGW scam, the Levick/CCR Gitmo whitewash, the ‘1984’ish
narciso (3fec35) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:19 amunpersonning of Zimmerman, etc, etc.
It appears there are several four year provisions.
It also appears, now, that this prosecution is at the behest of the parents of the younger girl, as a nearly identical case has been recently dismissed because those parents objected.
Why it’s felony child abuse instead of misdemeanor … it appears that Florida doesn’t have misdemeanor versions of anything considered a felony?
In any case, Florida 775.24 strikes down the proposed plea deal so she was correct to reject it; the prosecutor was offering something he couldn’t deliver.
Florida statutes
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:23 amSection 800.02 http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.02.html Lewd and Lascivious Act without regard to age is a misdemeanor. It actually reads like a lesser included and a judge or jury as well as the prosecutor could reduce the charge to that.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:28 am*Unnatural and Lascivious Act* It is a midemeanor of the second degree punishable by not more than 60 days. Criminal statutes can be confusing to navigate, especially if it’s not your jurisdiction.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:33 amAnd they have Facebook posts by Kaitlyn Hunt saying she knows what she’s doing is wrong.
Comment by Tanny O’Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:43 am
— She’s still doing it, but is pleading for someone to stop her?
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:36 amPart of the last ‘teachable moment’
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/os-george-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection-20130529,0,2098457.story
narciso (3fec35) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:38 amCan we trust Mr. Hunt after finding out that he is on probation for fraud, which he plead down to?
atom, you stated:
I never said you that you said:
What I did say is:
You also said:
If she admits that she was wrong, which she did on a Facebook post and I can be assured she isn’t going to molest anymore underage girls, then I see no reason for her to be on the sex offender list. But that assurance isn’t there. She stated she was wrong on Facebook, but doesn’t think she should stop. To protect other children, shouldn’t parents be able to know that Kaitlyn Hunt has an unhealthy attraction and is willing to sexually molest at least one underage girl?
Tanny O'Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:49 amIt’s a shame that Mr. Klompus understood the question better than some others understood his answer.
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:50 amTo protect other children, shouldn’t parents be able to know that Kaitlyn Hunt has an unhealthy attraction and is willing to sexually molest at least one underage girl?
Comment by Tanny O’Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:49 am
— While in a certain sense all of the notoriety from this case has ‘pre-registered’ her as a sex offender, the answer to your question is Yes.
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:03 amEric, would you like to answer JD’s question?
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:10 amAlessandra a-gittin’ her Anita Bryant on.
You go, girl! Squeeze every last bit of juice from that orange!
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:17 amWe’ve got a registered sex offender living in his Victorian not half a mile from my daughter’s school. He is a creepy middle-aged man. Fat lot of good the sex offender registry did. About two years ago he was arrested for trying to entice boys into his house. Not much was done to him. Recently he was arrested again in the local high school. He confessed that he was going to the zoo to look for boys but the high school was on the way and hosting a swim meet so he thought he might have better luck there. Not much will happen to him again since the thing stayed (thankfully)inchoate. Sex offender registries are the things politicians do when they want to look like they’re doing something.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:25 am“Every child is a walking target for a perverted LGBT individual who thinks they are normal.”
SINNUHS! FAWNICATAHS! I CAST THEE OUT!!
What’s the matter, dearie? Still recovering from the panic attack at the Joan Osbourne concert c. 1995?
Jack Klompus (2b072c) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:32 amWhile hardly to be advised or condoned, teen sex happens for all the reasons we know it happens, and while the age of majority may be 18, we also know that there are exceptions made where they are practical and necessary (the drinking age for example). Maturity doesn’t happen overnight, and clearly 18 year olds differ quite a bit from adults even just a few years older when it comes to judgment and understanding. Does this mean no consequences for Kaitlyn Hunt or older teen boys in the same situation, or more precisely, older teen girls (in heterosexual relationships with younger teen boys)? No, but wise and compassionate justice would recommend a misdemeanor rather than a felony in most cases–and a penalty that would discourage the behavior (and parents not minding their teen offspring) while not destroying futures for irresponsible though not unexpected lapses. Nearly all states (including Florida) have “Romeo and Juliet” provisions that address the fact that “adult” teens can’t always be expected to exercise adult judgment when it comes to sex. The question is really more one of specifics than philosophy, as the penalties and age gaps vary considerably from state to state–and in many states Hunt’s actions wouldn’t have provoked such potentially harsh penalties. Obviously Florida’s law is what it is, but that doesn’t mean it is as it should be, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see both a change in the law and some kind of nullification that addresses the Hunt situation when the legal proceedings are over.
As to the fairness of Hunt’s prosecution, it is at best naive and at worst mendacious to claim that Hunt’s arrest and prosecution reflect “gender neutral” or non-discriminatory practice. We all know that there is wide discretion for police and prosecutors with respect to if and how to take action in response to a possible crime, particularly one of this nature. Teen sex is (fortunately) not a sphere in which the police operate with much interest or diligence, preferring others to handle issues that arise. So her case is more the exception than the rule, particularly with Hunt as a female offender. However, when the authorities do get involved there is an obligation to avoid bias with respect to minorities. Straight black males have received unduly vigorous and harsh “justice” for similar infractions. Such individuals fit certain [southern] stereotypes, whether they deserve them or not.
As for lurid and snide descriptions of fingering and bathroom stalls to suggest something more aggravated, what teen sex couldn’t be framed in similarly lurid terms? The truth is that there is little here that is aggravating, no violence, no coercion, no pattern of behavior with others etc. The only reason for legal proceedings is that the younger girl’s parents (understandably upset) were so vigorous in pursuing the matter formally (with the school and with the police). While I understand their reaction, a wiser response from the authorities could have dealt with their concerns, stopped and even punished the behavior and all without the growing circus we now have on our hands.
While those who defend Hunt do so for a number of reasons, including possible orientation bias, the real issue is really much simpler. The reflexive reaction to what is happening in this case (favorable media spin and the public rallying on her behalf) is more a response to disproportionate justice not a suggestion that her acts were acceptable. This is why the ultimate result is likely to be leniency in spite of the way the law is written. It will be a politically satisfying result to both Hunt’s supporters and the government entities involved (and under siege for well intentioned but poorly codified regulation of teen sex), who I’m sure wish this would all go away.
DM (364a1b) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:33 amshe’s eighteen with a bullet
Colonel Haiku (180a66) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:41 amGot her finger on teh trigger
she gonna pull it
she can’t quit you babe
Colonel Haiku (2bcc2f) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:46 amso she gonna have ta put you down for a while
DM,
The “circus” was created by Mr. and Mrs. Hunt. In Florida it is recognized that teen sex happens, just above the age of 15. As for coercion, when I was a freshman if a senior asked my classmates to jump, they’d ask, “how high”. Freshman want the approval of seniors.
Tanny O'Haley (f5fbfe) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:47 amHis Son received our judgement on the cross
Yes, it is not an issue that mercy and forgiveness means there is no judgement, it is that Jesus took the judgement onto Himself, hence He is in a position to forgive. Forgiveness is not cheap.
You know, I am finding the silence deafening over my repeated question. Are there so few people left that think parents have some say over what behavior there 14 yo is pursuing? Or are there so few people left that think parents of a 14 yo have a say in what kind of sexuality the child is pursuing? Do you all really think that a heterosexual couple has no right to discourage their 14 yo from being initiated into same-sex relationship or lifestyle? Do you think they do but you are not willing to say it? Or perhaps you don’t think anything will be served by putting it down in electronic black and white?- I can understand and sympathize.
Long ago there was a Simon and Garfunkle song about being “McNamaraed” or some such, maybe I can figure out a way to put being “Niemollered” and “Alinskyed” into song.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:57 am“Every child is a walking target for a perverted LGBT individual who thinks they are normal.”
What’s the matter, dearie? Still recovering from the panic attack at the Joan Osbourne concert c. 1995?
Comment by Jack Klompus (2b072c)
Aw, what’s the matter tootsie roll? Your narrative isn’t sticking as much as you’d like?
Sounds like you’re upset that some people in society don’t want to let the LGBT rape and molest as they please…
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:03 amno actually it doesn’t sound really at all like Mr. Klompus is upset that some people in society don’t want to let the LGBT rape and molest as they please
i bet he’s just hungry for a tasty breakfast burrito from casita taco
happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:06 amI tell my daughter that if she sees everybody else jumping off a cliff she should jump too. She gets it. Our family motto is “They do what they do, and we do what we do”. She pierced her ears and this past weekend went to the spa with mama and got her legs waxed (she’s eleven!) At least, if she turns out lesbian she’ll be a feminine one. I encourage her to be aggressive going after boys she likes but my shotgun may be confusing the signal.
Seriously, MD, of course the parents are the ones to influence and control their child’s sexual behavior. L.N. put it very well earlier in the thread.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:10 am“Who identified the victim in this thread?”
JD – The victim is Kaitlyn, D’oh!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:16 amMmmm, chorizo & egg. *drool*
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:16 amAs for lurid and snide descriptions of fingering and bathroom stalls to suggest something more aggravated, what teen sex couldn’t be framed in similarly lurid terms?
===============
Obviously homosexual sex is deformed by its very nature, so quite different than heterosexual sex. So right there, you have a major difference. It’s always dysfunctional.
Second, what teen sex (or adult sex) couldn’t be framed as lurid and snide and in a bathroom stall?
Every kind of sexual context that is not equivalent to a public, unpleasant, potentially dirty bathroom stall.
Perhaps Kate’s defenders know nothing else in terms of sex or think that every adolescent must be incapable of thinking about sex in a way that doesn’t involve statutory rape in a bathroom stall – btw, quite pornographic – it just goes to show that they are trying to legitimize Kate’s kind of sex by a very low common denominator.
Alessandra (205de0) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:16 amDM- parents of a 14 year old only have so many options. When their 14 yo child was taken into the custody of an 18 yo legal adult without their permission, they have a few different options that I can see (yes, taking a person away from their home overnight is taking custody):
1. Lock the 14 yo’s door and windows from the outside and allow her out only with a chaperone
2. Say what the heck and let whatever happens happen
3. Call the police and ask for legal intervention, since the 18 yo adult has already been told/requested to stay away
4. petition the court to grant the 14 yo emancipated minor status so she can do whatever she wants, on her own authority
5. Send their daughter someplace far away where there is no opportunity to return without the parent’s permission.
I think in many jurisdictions even today, at least for the next month or so anyway, parents who allow a 14 yo uninhibited involvement with sex with an 18 you could probably be brought up on criminal charges, certainly at least have their guardianship revoked and make the 14 yo a ward of the state. Are there no longer laws against contributing to the delinquency of a minor? How hard would it be to make a case against parents who allow an ongoing relationship between a 14 yo and an adult?
People want to let everybody have what they want, be happy and get along, but you can only do that when, in essence, you think nothing matters after all.
But then you have the logical impossibility because to claim that “nothing matters” is a value judgement after all that comes into conflict with whatever it is that one thinks matters.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:23 amSuch individuals fit certain [southern] stereotypes, whether they deserve them or not.
Cough cough BS cough. Why is it that people are completely comfortable speaking in gross generalizations about southerners?
Alessandra – a bit overwrought, no?
JD (df45ac) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:25 amVictim schmictim… she knows what she likes and she’s gotta have it.
Colonel Haiku (42710d) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:25 am“As to the fairness of Hunt’s prosecution, it is at best naive and at worst mendacious to claim that Hunt’s arrest and prosecution reflect “gender neutral” or non-discriminatory practice.”
DM – So you claim, but don’t make a convincing argument to support your claim.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:27 am“As to the fairness of Hunt’s prosecution, it is at best naive and at worst mendacious to claim that Hunt’s arrest and prosecution reflect “gender neutral” or non-discriminatory practice.”
Why? Asserting it does not make it so.
JD (df45ac) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:28 amIllinois got rid of the Minor In Need of Supervision status because in practice the sins of the fathers were visited on the heads of the children. Now children are made wards of the court if abused, neglected or delinquent. But it in no way a substitute for responsible parents.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:31 amSeriously, MD, of course the parents are the ones to influence and control their child’s sexual behavior. L.N. put it very well earlier in the thread.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:10 am
Well nk, maybe I’m missing it, but I do not see that view reflected in much of the thread, at least not as clearly as L.N. put it,
If it was up to me, which it is not, I would not have even posted this thread; and having done so, would have closed it off long ago.
Apparently some people think a 14 yo should be free to make their own decisions about sex irrespective of their parent’s views
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:33 amand others don’t
and I’m not sure how much room or purpose for discussion there is, other than the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
“As to the fairness of Hunt’s prosecution, it is at best naive and at worst mendacious to claim that Hunt’s arrest and prosecution reflect “gender neutral” or non-discriminatory practice.”
DM – The statutes under which Kaitlyn is charged are gender neutral.
The plea deal offered involved two years of community control rather than prison and no registration as a sex offender.
According to the link I posted in #340, the victim’s family primary interest is in having Kaitlyn stay away from their daughter and has no interest in seeing Kaitlyn go to prison or register as a sex offender. Apparently Kaitlyn and her family have no interest in acknowledging those wishes. Kaitlyn’s defenders can and have fabricated a multitude of twisted rationales for the prosecution with seemingly little relationship to the underlying facts of the case or law.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:42 am==As for lurid and snide descriptions of fingering and bathroom stalls to suggest something more aggravated, what teen sex couldn’t be framed in similarly lurid terms?==
Aww, you old romantic, you.
No. Actually, I’m kidding there. That’s not romance, and that’s not dating, DM. It’s not that sweet misunderstood Romeo and Juliet first love, which is how this story was “framed” initially for public consumption. School bathroom stall sex is not showing innocence or respect or consideration for your young love girlfriend regardless of orientation or of age. The lurid location of the sex in this now national circus story is a huge reason why the narrative fell apart and why people started looking both at the law and the ages and backgrounds of the participants and the role of their parents much more closely. Kate’s family/handlers opened the door to the toilet stall on this one and are now trying to slam it shut again. They can’t have it both ways.
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:50 amGirl just wanna be gettin’ her freak on, and ‘The Man’ he be sayin’ “Whoa, girlfriend! Just how freaky-deaky are you plannin’ on gettin’?” And the girl be like “Hey, ain’t nothin’ but a thang! I likes me the training bra and piercing their little hy-hy’s wit my ‘personal massager’ is all.” And ‘The Man’ — being the patriarchal pig that he is — he goes “Uh, I don’t know about that one, baby; see, that might be a little too freaky-deaky.” So the girl cops a ‘tude and says “You just mad cuz it’d be ‘gainst the law for you to watch!” And ‘The Man’ he don’t ‘preciate dat (cuz it’s true!) so he hauls her azz off to jail. And den a prosecutor come along and goes “Well, I see we gotta make an example out of another one of you lezbos,” so he throws the book at her — and now she be lookin’ at doin’ some hard time just for gettin’ her freak on, yo! It’s a cryin’ shame, I tells ya.
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:52 am“Apparently some people think a 14 yo should be free to make their own decisions about sex irrespective of their parent’s views
and others don’t”
MD in Philly – Sadly there appear to be many who appear to take the view that once children get to high school, they should get locked in and parents must avert their eyes to whatever behavior happens involving things like drugs, alcohol and sex, because the kids belong to the state now or something and kids will be kids and the law and values are really not important.
It is a very sad commentary on our little experiment in Democracy with predictable outcomes.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:53 amThe plea deal offered involved two years of community control rather than prison and no registration as a sex offender.
— If this is true, then she is an absolute moron for not taking the deal.
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:57 amelissa – At least no Sawz-All has appeared in the story yet.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:58 am“If this is true, then she is an absolute moron for not taking the deal.”
DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:00 amThat’s because they’re from the south. Illinois is more advanced in their “at school” sex that way, daley.
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:03 am“i bet he’s just hungry for a tasty breakfast burrito from casita taco”
Mmmm…Actually here in Austin, home o’ lots o’ dem dere homersek’shulls, I like Torchy’s Tacos and then Alessandra and I go for pink daiquiris at She She Bar where she can point out all doze lezbos who are giving her the Martina-eye.
It’s okay, Alessandra, I’m sure your pal Jebus is proud you’re doing His daddy’s work casting out sin and sodomy so that you can get the deluxe suite in heaven, honey.
Jack Klompus (2b072c) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:04 amelissa – Baby steps.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:06 amAnyone notice how the defenders of Kaitlyn refuse to refer to her 14 yoa victim as a child and in fact even take umbrage at the 14 yoa victim being labelled as a child?
These same people would be screaming CHILD at the top of her lungs if she was accused of a serious felony herself such as murder or sexual abuse of a 10 year old victim. Hell, they even keep defending Kaitlyn and saying she’s not mature enough to understand, almost as if she’s, GASP, a child herself. Same people reference a 17 year old thug like dope smoking, hoodie wearing, gang banger, pistol toting, Trayvon as a poor innocent little tea drinking, skittle eating child, who was just out playing hopskotch. And even a picture when the little perp was only 14 years old is posted everywhere to show that he was just an innocent little child when he got shot for attacking that mean old Zimmerman.
That’s right you sickos, defend the little shits as children when they commit crimes and make sure to demonize everyone when their victims are 14 year old children. If Kaitlyn had been an 18 yoa male that had sex with with a 14 yoa female, you wouldn’t hear a peep outa these folks when he was charged for statuatory rape. One case happened here in Georgia a couple of years back, and they prosecuted him to the fullest extent, AND he is still in prison.
They are only up in arms about this because of Kaitlyn’s sexual preference which must be defended at all costs. They would even defend her if her victim was younger than 14. Notice that not one of them would answer the question about what if the victim was only 13? These same defenders won’t even call an 32 week term victim of a botched abortion a child when it is born alive. Sickos and perverts, every last one of them.
peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:06 amI suppose maybe my comment above places me as a relic from another era. But my god, I really do think at all ages most people want to experience romance and some traditional social/cultural seduction rituals to go along with the sex. I mean, why else do kids insist upon and do parents still shell out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for prom?
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:15 amElissa, they even defend the right of a transgender male who still has his big ole tallywhacker to use a girl’s restroom if’n he feels like a ‘woman’. Some of them even make laws to insure that they can just like they did in Merryland. Can anyone say “License to Pervs”? What’s gonna prevent Mr. Peeper Tom Pervert from saying, “Oh I feel all womany today. I think I’ll put a dress on, and go spy me some feminine pulchritude.”
Not to mention that there might be 14 year old or even younger girls using his chosen restroom that he sashayed into.
Gotta go, I feel all womany all of a sudden. Now where did I put that dress?
peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:30 amSeriously, daleyrocks. What kind of shyster tells his client this:
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:30 am“Well, you did violate this statute, and the state is offering you an extremely generous & reasonable plea deal — one in which you will do NO hard time and will NOT be branded with a scarlet letter for life — but I think that if we attack the victim’s family and allege prosecutorial misconduct we can win an acquittal.”
P.O.A. been caught stealin’!
Icy (329aee) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:32 amHmmm?
peedoffamerican (a84075) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:34 amStealing?
peedoffamerican (127915) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:36 amMe?
peedoffamerican (127915) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:37 amWhere is all the money for PR and (bad) legal advice coming from? Who is paying the bills and making the decisions for Katelyn’s defense? Just asking, because that information can sometimes be instructive.
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:37 amElissa it’s prolly coming from some fellow pervey pervs that wants to “date” them some 14 year old same sex
peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:40 amvictimsyoung adults.Comment by peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:30 am
It’s the law in Massachusetts as well. A person with male genitalia who identifies as a female gets to try out for and join the girls cheerleadering team, including using their locker room. And if someone objects, that is the person who gets a talking to.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:47 am“Seriously, daleyrocks. What kind of shyster tells his client this:”
Icy – We don’t know whether the shyster advised her not to accept.
Remember, daddy kicked off police force a while back, fraud conviction last year. Pure speculation, but could daddy be milking St. Kate of Finger Fornication’s plight for some coin? Stranger things have happened.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:07 amPOA,
Is this you? SFW Right on brother err sister err …. Let the haters hate.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:12 amI suppose maybe my comment above places me as a relic from another era. But my god, I really do think at all ages most people want to experience romance and some traditional social/cultural seduction rituals to go along with the sex. I mean, why else do kids insist upon and do parents still shell out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for prom?
Not to be any more cynical than usual, but I think at this point the prom ritual is more about fashion and status than it is about romance.
JVW (23867e) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:18 amOn the plea bargain. It is not clear that the judgge signed off on the offered sentence, and I doubt that he did. The judge is not bound by any agreement between the defendant and the state. So it matters what the guilty plea is to. If it is to a felony where the judge can impose five years? If the prosecution drops the charge to what I linked above, a second degree misdemeanor (up to sixty days), then yes tke the plea. The judge can be as vicious as he wants but the most he can do is give you sixty days. The prosecutor can say “we offered such and such a sentence” but it’s BS unless they also offered a reduced charge with a possible maximum sentence acceptable to the defendant. Put not your
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:22 amfaithfate in the minions of the criminal justice system.394, 396. But, but, it’s the Luddites that are ruining her life!
I’m thinking drive-by parenting might’ve finished the job by her eighteenth.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:36 amPOA,
Is this you? SFW Right on brother err sister err …. Let the haters hate.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:12 am
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, BIG LOL!
No that’s not me, he/she/it is too pretty!
peedoffamerican (35b482) — 5/30/2013 @ 11:02 amI love Torchy’s more than beans Mr. Klompus!
I found one as far north as Allen, Texas, which was very exciting for me
my favorite one is the turkey mole one but they’re all worth trying
plus they have queso
you pretty much have to make your own queso in California cause they just don’t get it
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/30/2013 @ 11:23 amThen why did the prosecutor offer the deal, if he couldn’t follow through with the deal? Maybe Patterico can answer that since he works for a D.A.’s office.
Tanny O'Haley (d02a48) — 5/30/2013 @ 11:52 am“my favorite one is the turkey mole one but they’re all worth trying”
For lunch I like to order one Republican taco and one Democrat taco to be all bipartisan like that. Some of the best Tex-Mex you find in the little greasy spoon joints, but now I’m concerned, thanks to Alessandra, that one of my servers might be a homersekshull and keeping children for sex toys in the kitchen.
Jack Klompus (2b072c) — 5/30/2013 @ 11:54 amWe’ll leave Patterico’s job out of this. Let’s ask Colton, the Indian River County prosecutor:
“Under the plea agreement we agreed we would ask for no more than two years of community control. Under community control she would be free to go to work, free to go to school, free to go to church, free to go to the doctor,” Colton said.
Emphasis added. Yeah, it’s a BS “offer” because the judge does not have to do what the prosecutor asks.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:06 pm“Yeah, it’s a BS “offer” because the judge does not have to do what the prosecutor asks.”
nk – Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:19 pmnk – Are all plea agreements BS because judges do not have to do what prosecutors ask them to do?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:23 pmThe plea of guilty and then you’re at the mercy of the court. The state says, “For the record your Honor, the people have agreed to ask blah-blah.” The judge then asks the defendant “You understand that I am not bound by any agreement you may have made with the prosecution? You are waiving bla-blah-blah? You are pleading guilty because you are guilty? Nobody is forcing you? Other than what the prosecutor just said nobody has promised you anything? Blah, blah, blah? Five years for the protection of society and the interests of justice.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:32 pmIn Illinois, we have plea conferences and the judge tells us the sentence he will impose. It was going on even before the legislature recognized plea agreements, we just kept it off the record. I don’t know if that’s permitted in Florida. There’s a lot of things I don’t know about this case. My point is that I don’t give so much weight to the plea offer that I would blame the defendant for turning it down.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:38 pm“The plea of guilty and then you’re at the mercy of the court.”
nk – The fact that the Judge can impose any sentence within guidelines he/she wants does not make the plea agreement BS as you say in #419 above. That is the nature of the process. Kaitlyn is not even entitled to be offered any plea deals. If she is represented by competent local counsel, he/she is in the best position to determine if the deal offered is BS and likely to be accepted or denied by local judges.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:40 pmAs a general principle, never take a blind plea.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:40 pmI was responding to commenters who blaming her/daddy/her “shyster lawyer” for turning down Colton’s offer.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:42 pm“In Illinois, we have plea conferences and the judge tells us the sentence he will impose. It was going on even before the legislature recognized plea agreements”
nk – The fatter envelope wins!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:44 pm“I was responding to commenters who blaming her/daddy/her “shyster lawyer” for turning down Colton’s offer.”
nk – I’m responding to you calling it a BS offer based upon the nature of the process, that prosecutors can’t bind judges to accept the agreements of prosecutors. My point is in contrast to your position that does not fundamentally make an offer BS. It is the nature of the process.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:49 pmFair enough.
nk – The fatter envelope wins!
That is a rarity in the criminal courts in Cook County, believe it or not. Your other point, that local counsel knows the judge and the sentence he will impose is a good one. Some of my clients thought I was a fixer because I would tell them in advance exactly what would turn out to actually happen.
nk (875f57) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:02 pmIn two years and eight months time, the younger gal will be able to legally fraterize with Kaitlyn Hunt as they each consent to.
On the other hand, if the younger gal had merely been pregnated by a guy who had just surpassed his eighteenth birthday, the federal appeals courts would protect her inherent right to…”control her own body.”
Or whatever.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:09 pmfraternize
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:10 pmyikes, I can’t spell today.
“impregnate”
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:11 pm(spoken with lisp)
nk, that just can’t be me,dearie, I wouldn’t be caught dead in that outfit. I prefer to be color coordinated, not all one color. I also prefer my ensemble to be more dignified, subdued, and demure. She/its’ outfit is so loud it not only hurts my eyes, it’s making my ears bleed. Tsk, tsk, tsk, no fashion sense whatsoever. And Oh My Gawd!, those pink cowboy boots, what, sheit never heard of pumps or some sexy high-heels? It just screams “I’m Easy’. Doesn’t it scream “Slut” to you too?”
And that mini skirt of sheit’s, honey don’t you know that if your over 30 mini’s are not for you!
When I dress up, I’m Fabuloussssssssss!
Besides, pink is just so yesterday.
Tah, Tah toodles.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:13 pmI’d love to see that scene. Precious deflowerer Kate throws herself on the mercy of the court. Confidence beaming from her eyes.
Then the judge gives her the same ten years he would give any teenaged boy. No freedom to work, no freedom to go to school, no freedom to go to church, you will be allowed or not allowed a jail house doctor on a case by case basis should the need arise.
As to the fairness of Hunt’s prosecution, it is at best naive and at worst mendacious to claim that Hunt’s arrest and prosecution reflect “gender neutral” or non-discriminatory practice.
She’s not in jail. It hasn’t cost her parent $150K to bail her out of the clink.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:52 pmLets ask Chris Mizelle if Kat Hunt is getting special treatment already.
High School kids shouldn’t be having sex…and certainly not with other high school kids.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:58 pmI need some advice on bathroom etiquette.
Ogling the other patrons, is it normal in a women’s restroom?
No, I’m not planning on a gender change, not even for peeping purposes.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:01 pmkaitlin makes my taco POP!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms5d9RN0WzY
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:05 pm“That is a rarity in the criminal courts in Cook County”
nk – Pre or post Greylord?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:20 pmAll of a sudden, every one of the ESPN Top 100 High School Blue Chip Football Players is…lawyering up !
Gee, I wonder why they would be inclined to do that.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:24 pmthe best defense is a good offense Mr. Stone
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:36 pmmister feet, you’re right, there certainly is a lot of offense going on…and it is offensive, so to speak.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:38 pmKids! Those rascally little devils. Shakes head. What’re ya gonna do with ’em
This week:
drivers permit
110 mph
BMW X6M
3.A.M.
last week:
diorderly conduct arrest (marajuana)
2012:
weapons charge conviction pointing gun at police
Keith Cazart aka Chief Keef is 17.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/chief-keef-cited-for-driving-110-mph-20130529
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:45 pmMD in Philly — I understand that parents want to control their children’s sex lives. By the time they hit high school, their desires are swamped by hormones and desires; coming in third and fourth are religion’s and parent’s teachings. If the parents have taught well, their child is still listening (although probably not entirely obedient.) The 14 year old’s parents appear to have attempted to impose control “You can’t see her” “KH, you must stay away” and I saw lots of that when I was 14 — it does not work. I don’t think they get to use the courts to beat up the other girl (and now, I see reports saying that that is not what they wanted? What did they think would happen if they insisted on prosecution?)
The offered deal seems to be in violation of FL 775.24
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:52 pmLammy — the prosecutor would offer a deal he knew would be refused so he could demand a maximum sentence because the defendant had refused a plea bargain.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 2:55 pmhtom, please look at #383 and pick a number or suggest a specific alternative
You are the parent. If you have money you can get a lawyer and get in the face of the 18 yo and her parents
and/or have the child sent away to a wilderness program to have some space to re-think life.
If you do not have money, you have the choices above, unless you come up with an other.
If you have a 14 yo that you cannot succeed in keeping from life choices of potential devastating consequences you have no good choices.
Personally, enabling the 14 yo to do what she damn well pleases with whoever she pleases is the worst alternative
and I think legally the most indefensible.
“Mr. and Mrs., you cannot keep your 14 yo from having a sexual relationship with an 18 yo (now out of high school) adult?”
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 3:14 pmIn a good jurisdiction the family court judge sympathizes with the parents and puts teeth into the consequences of the child misbehaving,
in a more typical overworked urban jurisdiction, nothing is done until they remove the child from the home and give the parents no say.
Sexual experience at 14 certainly is not unheard of, but to act as if it is simply a life choice of little negative consequence (compared with “ruining the life” of the 18 yo.) is naive. Teenagers get HIV and develop AIDS before they are 25; the first patient I ever saw with genital warts was a young lesbian who was emotionally devastated with the implication that she was not “the first” for her partner, as she had been told. Teens with early sexual experience are more likely to be promiscuous with age.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 3:22 pmkaitlin makes my taco POP!
This thread was, is, and shall be Chicken Soup for my Snark.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/30/2013 @ 4:04 pm“The 14 year old’s parents appear to have attempted to impose control “You can’t see her” “KH, you must stay away” and I saw lots of that when I was 14 — it does not work.”
htom – Something is wrong with your description here. In your view, the 14 year old literally forced 18 year old Occupy Jailbait Vagina, who knew or should have known what she was doing was wrong, to pick her up from her parents house because she could not drive herself, and forced St. Kate of the Bathroom Stall to drive her to St. Kate’s parents’ house for a night of sex, but St. Kate is the victim here.
What is wrong with you?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 4:25 pmSeriously I could watch Shawn Johnson say,
“My taco’s the best!” all day long.
I want it on a loop.
But what really gets me is the voice of god announcer at the end saying, “There’s no competition. Ortega is the champion of Great Taste!
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/30/2013 @ 4:41 pmMD in Philly — I’d reject all of those (some of which sound exactly like other parents did to my classmates, with disastrous results.) I really think it’s too late, for both of these young ladies. If I found myself the parent (or guardian, more likely) of either of them now (well, back when this started, long before the cops were involved) I’d ask both to dinner at a local restaurant that has some private spaces available and have a local family court judge (female, if possible, in this case) explain what would happen to each of them if someone complained to the police about what they were doing. Then I’d ask them to cool it off for a year or two, pay the bill, and leave the three of them to continue the conversation.
I don’t know if it would work or not. People have to learn to wait and to exercise self-control, and authoritarian parents and lax parents both do a very poor job of teaching those skills. Neither is something you can learn suddenly, when you turn 14 or 16 or 18 or 21. If you don’t let them practice when they are 4 or 6 or 8 or 10 … when the hormones kick in, the puberty brain neuron pruning crunches, if they have not learned those things they won’t for a decade or more.
Assuming that neither girl has been sexually or physically abused, I suspect that both have been (and continue to be) the victims of poor parenting.
nk pointed to a misdemeanor statute that sounds more appropriate to me. At this point, that seems unlikely. The younger girl probably leaves home the day after she graduates from high school and doesn’t visit her parents for decades (assuming she doesn’t run away much sooner.)
I have not seen this happen in history, but I have seen things too close to this.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:41 pmdaleyrocks — perhaps I believe that I don’t understand all that’s happened, and am more willing to grant people slack to get themselves straightened out. Not having a vested interest in a conviction might have something to do with that. Having seen others convicted, too, in somewhat similar circumstances (although not of felonies, then, different state, ….) If either girl was a serial sexual predator … but there have been no previous convictions talked about.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 6:50 pmhtom, I she isn’t convicted this time, the next time there won’t be a previous conviction either. It sounds like you have a vested interest in not seeing this woman convicted.
Tanny O'Haley (106f0a) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:06 pmwell htom, you did give a specific recommendation which was to attempt a voluntary mediation/intervention with someone of authority, and I give you credit for it being a wonderful idea, provided they could have found a family court judge to do this.
Unfortunately, I don’t think most people would have thought of this without the advice of a professional- lawyer or psychiatrist/psychologist.
Then if that didn’t take, I guess back to the choices.
BTW, I too have seen first hand similar situations, and that is why I think the choice of doing nothing is the worst of them.
None of the choices are guaranteed “to work”, nothing is guaranteed “to work” where people and free will are involved.
And “working” needs to be seen in very long terms, anyway.
I would not assume neither child had been abused, nor would I assume that both had poor parenting.
Acting out sexually is a common result of sexual abuse in a desperate and confused attempt to cope; and some children turn out pretty well in spite of bad parenting, and some kids get into trouble in spite of “good enough” parenting.
Yes, it’s a terrible situation, but I think the parents of the 14 yo are the last to be criticized. They asked an 18 yo to leave their 14 yo minor daughter alone. That should have been enough.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:10 pmNo one is talking about previous (or juvenile) arrests, either. They could be under seal, but that rarely stops the gossip press.
I have a vested interest in making people better, and it seems most here have a vested interest in vengeance. Yours would seem to be somewhat understandable; you think of punishing KH as punishing those who abused you. The person complaining, here, seems to be the parents, not the “victim”, who fled her parents to the person everyone seems to think was her abuser. That happens; perhaps one or the other or both were abusing her. Perhaps no one was.
Let’s all get together and hang KH, ok? That what you want me to agree with ? No.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:16 pmNo, I don’t have a vested interest in “vengeance” of KH, I do have a vested interest in not letting open season on 14 yo’s to be declared.
On one hand you are trying to plead immaturity on the part of the 18 yo so don’t “condemn” her, yet you are also claiming the 14 yo had enough maturity to judge for herself whether or not she was a victim.
I was never abused. As a physician I have seen the wreckage of people who were. I’ll be d***ed if I sit back and let people think it is ok to violate a 14 yo.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:28 pmWould it have been better for this to have been resolved differently?
Yes.
But at least the message is going out to those who didn’t learn it before, if you’re messing around with a 14 year old and the parents say get lost, maybe it’s a good idea.
I have a vested interest in making people better,
I’ve spent many a year with a vested interest in making people better, including people dying of AIDS having been “helped” in making poor choices early on and various other permutations of messed up lives. It is much easier to helpo a person stay better by not letting them be “used” (even if not “abused) before they are 16, at least.
Do you really think you are going to make anyone better by letting KH off without any consequences of her behavior?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:37 pm“daleyrocks — perhaps I believe that I don’t understand all that’s happened, and am more willing to grant people slack to get themselves straightened out.”
htom – I just see you as having a warped view of what has occurred without you presenting any evidence for why you hold such a view. I don’t think all teenagers are crazed animals who can’t control their impulses and lose all respect for parental influence. Parents can’t be policemen 24/7, but if they take an interest in what their kids are doing they retain influence.
I just wish people who are advocating little or no punishment for Kate could take a position and be honest about their beliefs. Instead we get creepy speculation about child abuse, hormonal stages of development, claims of deception, various rationalizations which make no sense when examined and a whole bunch of other nonsense.
Basically it all boils down to people believing that teenagers should be allowed to do whatever they want when it comes to sex and that age of consent laws make no sense. If that’s not exactly the case then they don’t have the courage to specify the age or terms of the age of consent laws they do believe make sense.
Please correct me where I’m wrong.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:46 pmBoy says I can’t I can’t wait have to do right now. Then he and the girl start. And in walks dad. It’s amazing how much self-control the boy suddenly has. Teenagers can have self-control. They just don’t always want to use it.
Tanny O'Haley (106f0a) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:55 pmMD — thanks for the kind words. A family court judge might not be the best choice, they’re probably required reporters. Maybe a retired judge or a retired lawyer.
That KH is interested in a 14 year old seems to me to be evidence of something untypical in her personality. A junior, yes; a sophomore, maybe; a frosh? Unlikely. Maybe if they knew each other previously (summer camp, church, scouting?)
A frosh interested in a senior I can understand … but parents forbidding the relationship (in either direction) seems to me to be to be doomed to failure (and thus poor parenting.) Forbidden fruit is always the tastiest.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:56 pmI think KH is going to have consequences for the rest of her life. Regardless of what happens in the courts, regardless of what did or didn’t happen before this public uproar. If she flees to some other country and changes her name, she’ll still remember.
I think that the 14 year old will, too, although they won’t be as severe since they are not as public.
Punishing those who take advantage of 14 year olds does not really protect the 14 year olds. They have to have been taught to protect themselves. Depending on the bad guys (and bad girls) to behave themselves is folly.
daley — use your search key, I’ve pointed out ways that things could have been done differently. Your statement of my beliefs is, well, wrong. I think KH probably needs to be punished. I don’t think that the proposed charges are appropriate. nk pointed at a different statute that would apply that seems more reasonable to me. Parents can have a great deal of influence, if they are good parents (and an even greater influence if they are bad parents!) but they do not get to control their children as if they are tiny robots. If that is the case, the parents (all four of them) should be being charged for the sexual misdeeds of their children, since the children would be merely actors in the control of their parents.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:16 pmThe whole point of the exercise is to undermine parental authority, what else could the Smith’s really do, you saw how quickly they were ostracized before the facts got out,
narciso (3fec35) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:20 pmForbidden fruit may be the tastiest,
it may also be the deadliest,
which is why it was forbidden.
And some demand to learn the hard way.
Taking it off of the forbidden list does not mean it is less deadly,
it just means more people will ignorantly stumble to death.
The issue is not that the parents forbade the relationship, the issue is that an 18 yo took sexual advantage of a 14 yo.
If you want to discuss the best approach to dealing with KH, that is a reasonable question.
If you want to discuss the best way to influence the behavior of a 14 yo child, as we have, that is a reasonable discussion.
But all of that assumes that an 18 yo had no business having sexual interaction with a 14 yo, and that screaming “mean homophobic parents” of the 14 yo is an absurd and deviant response to the situation.
Taylor Swift had a very popular song where “Romeo” stayed away until he appeared with an engagement ring and Juliet’s father’s blessing.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:26 pmApparently lots of teenagers thought it was a good song, which is a good thing,
and she isn’t even a parent.
Teenagers will pretty much do what they want to do. If they’ve learned self-control, that’s probably a cautious subset of the behaviors their non-self-controlling classmates exhibit. If they have learned to trample the bounds, to get away with whatever their impulses lead them to, you get other behaviors.
It can be argued that everyone does what they want to do. Some of us stay within the law, others do not, others are selective in the laws they break. (Most of us probably don’t know the laws well enough to make meaningful decisions in that way.) Some of us stay within our religion’s bounds, others do not, some blather about what’s required.
It may be that KH is a sexual predator. I object to the presumption that she is, and her conviction because of that presumption.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:29 pmPunishing those who take advantage of 14 year olds does not really protect the 14 year olds. They have to have been taught to protect themselves. Depending on the bad guys (and bad girls) to behave themselves is folly.
That is why I study MMA, have a 40 cal in my R waist, a 9mm miniature in my holster under the l side of my coat, throwing stars in my wallet, a throwing knife in my R sock, Bowie in the L.
All kinds of bad guys out there, can’t expect them to behave.
You are doing everything you can to divert responsibility from HK and blame the 14 yo’s parents for inadequate parenting. Even though you have had many worthwhile things to say, your bottom line, even when logically inconsistent, is that HK needs to be the center of our sympathy.
I think that the 14 year old will, too, although they won’t be as severe since they are not as public.
You have no d*** f’ing idea what the repercussions will be over time with either of those involved, their parents, other family memebers and friends. You have one minimal bit of info for your supposition, and HK, her family, and her handlers are the ones responsible for that.
For all you know, HK will fare neither worse nor better for this, the younger could commit suicide- if only by accident in a gesture not meant to work, and the parents divorce and one lapse into alcoholism and ide of cirrhosis at 50.
If you want to help people live good lives, make it clear that doing dumb things when you are young can cause more trouble than you ever imagined, so think twice, young know-it-all, before you think you have it all figured out.
Once things are done, they can’t be undone. Sometimes that is very bitter and is best avoided,
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:41 pmwhich ought to be a major focus of the discussion.
If they have learned to trample the bounds, to get away with whatever their impulses lead them to, you get other behaviors.
Umm, I think this is the point, that we want 18 yo to learn they can’t trample the bounds of 14 yo bodies and get away with it.
But you conflict with yourself when you say people will do what they will do anyway,
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:46 pmso, “Let us eat, drink, for tomorrow we die”.
Once things are done, they can’t be undone. Sometimes that is very bitter and is best avoided,
which ought to be a major focus of the discussion.
Our disagreement seems to be that I think that the actions of the State are as subject to this as the actions of KH.
htom (412a17) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:50 pmthis ceased to be a question when she had sexual relations with a fourteen year old.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:57 pmI haven’t discussed the actions of the state at all.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:57 pmI don’t think the discussion, including with you, has hardly allowed for it.
As long as the discussion has been trying to minimize HK’s responsibility, place blame on the younger girl’s parents, debate whether the 14 yo is a victim or “enjoyed it”, etc., there is no reason to discuss the state’s actions. If one can’t agree on the crime, how can one even begin to discuss appropriate rehab/punishment?
htom– I have watched from afar your discussion with our friend MD. It seems you are very interested in this case and have many thoughts about what “should or shouldn’t have been done by various people” and “how things would be so much better for everyone involved if such and such had been pursued or handled in a certain different manner a while back”. Well and good. You might be right about some of it. But that’s really all water under the bridge, isn’t it? It’s moot. It’s all Monday morning quarterbacking. You’re talking theory and hypotheticals now. That’s because things happened, decisions were made, and the families and law enforcement have arrived at a place. That’s the reality they are all dealing with now. What happens next seems to be of more import than what maybe should have happened or how you think people should feel about teenage sex or what you think of the prosecutor’s charges.
Here’s my question. What are you proposing– now? What would you recommend the Hunts do–now? What do you think the Smiths should do differently–now?
elissa (41c1d1) — 5/30/2013 @ 9:35 pm“I’ve pointed out ways that things could have been done differently. Your statement of my beliefs is, well, wrong. I think KH probably needs to be punished. I don’t think that the proposed charges are appropriate.”
htom – Talking about how things could have been done is irrelevant when the facts and law are clear. When the facts and law are clear it is creepy to speculate about possible sexual abuse of the parties involved, that teens are going to do what they are going to do (mooting your point about parental influence), your continued focus on the 14 year old as opposed to the 18 year old who would not discontinue the relationship even though she was theoretically more mature.
Your comments are really just a mass of contradictions.
Do you believe in age of consent laws? If so, what ages should they protect?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/30/2013 @ 10:45 pmThis case is unusual in that I don’t ever recall a major news story in the past about a female being sexually aggressive towards and very male-like in her intimacy with another female (ie, Hunt having relations in a public restroom). Before I knew anything about the details of the main suspect and victim, I envisioned the former as being sort of a masculine, Tomboy type of female. So to learn she had been a cheerleader (which conjures up more feminine qualities) and previously dated only guys was merely one more reason why I think modern society is growing more and more dumbed down and chaotic.
The reality of “bender gender” is another reason people should start emphasizing the “B” in GLBT. That is, I recall a major reason Patterico some time ago gave for why he was sympathetic towards the concept of same-sex marriage was his noting that most people are not drawn sexually to their own gender, so it can’t be a matter of free choice and free will. IOW, homosexuality was not all that different from racial or ethnic characteristics. But that assumes, for example, that black people can’t change the color of their skin from one day to the next.
Mark (aa8ab9) — 5/30/2013 @ 11:46 pmredc1c4 — I don’t think you understand what a sexual predator is. I knew one who was twelve who had gotten many college guys into a great deal of trouble on the east coast, and when her parents moved her to the midwest university I was at when she was fourteen, she almost got a bunch more into trouble. (She was one of those super-geniuses who was in college at twelve, a fourteen year old college junior pretending to be 19 when I met her. I missed being one of her victims because she was caught again two weeks before our scheduled date.) Her parents went to the DA and demanded that her victims not be prosecuted.
After much flailing about, and consultation with the DA at that eastern college’s city, the DA decided not to prosecute, even though technically he had over a dozen statutory rapists. Perhaps you think they should have been prosecuted. I’m glad they were not. I hope she got the help she needed. I don’t think that either of the girls in this current case has the problems that girl did.
It should be obvious by now that I think calendar age is a
poorbad proxy for either emotional or sexual maturity. People here keep insisting that I should make such a rule.7th grade is usually 11-12-13
8th grade is usually 12-13-14
9th grade is usually 13-14-15 and is usually either the last year of middle school or the first year of high school.
So, the age of consent is 14 or attending high school.
I think for some this is too young … but given a legal system with the consequences ours has developed, that’s where I’d draw the legal line. Personally, I think they should wait until they have a college degree, or be a military E-5, W-3, or O-3, or or 21. Making that desire of mine law is foolish. Maybe it’s better to screw around when you’re young and learn to deal with how it messes with your mind.
That there doesn’t seem to be a “responsible adult” — cop, lawyer, doctor, judge, pastor — that this couple could have gone to to talk about this without there being an obligation to report the relationship as child abuse is part of the reason I set it so low.
I’m sure most of you will disagree. Think of your 18 year old children as well as your 14 year old children. Think about teaching them, rather than beating them up with the State.
htom (412a17) — 5/31/2013 @ 8:15 amhtom, I think there is a fundamental disagreement that will not go away
you seem to think a 14 yo should be considered responsible enough to make decisions about their own sexuality, while apparently at the same time being enabled in the behavior by parents who are not the final authority
you also seem to think to be a sexual predator one has to be on the far end of the spectrum
I imagine this is not what you think you mean,
but it sort of sounds like saying someone who rapes only twice is “an ordinary rapist”, rather than a bad, bad serial rapist.
Whether or not the state has handled the case of KH with reason or not I am not even going to begin to discuss for reasons I gave above. As long as you want to minimize the behavior of this 18 yo and spread the responsiblility, there is nothing to discuss.
I have thought about my children when they were 18, and 16, and 14. I knew that if problems at 14, no matter how little or big, were not addressed, it would just be harder later on.
And I knew that no matter what the h*** I thought about the maturity of one of my 18 yo’s, they were an adult in the eyes of the law and would be held accountable as such if they did “stupid” stuff. (In fact, even the high school drop outs dealing drugs know this, under 18 you get away with stuff).
You are still arguing both sides against yourself, treat the 18 yo as a still immature teenager and minimize accountability and consequences, but the 14 yo is a young adult who has the right to make her own determinations about major life issues, such as sexual behavior, whether her parents like it or not.
“Beating them up with the state” is a relatively late step, even in this example. You have sympathy for how KH’s life has been messed up. Fine, I have sympathy for that too. I also have sympathy for the 14 yo and her parents. I have a harder time finding sympathy for KH’s parents as I think they have allowed all of this to become much worse than it needed to be (though if I knew more of their histories and how they have been manipulated by others it might be easier).
Feel sad for KH all you want, we do too, but an 18 you who doesn’t have the sense to stay away from a 14 yo when told to needs to have consequences that “discourage” such continued behavior.
It’s not your concern for KH that puzzles and disturbs me, it’s your lack of concern for the 14 yo and her parents that speaks loudly.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/31/2013 @ 8:52 amI’m not expressing sympathy for the 14 year old because she’s not being prosecuted and her name isn’t being pasted on headlines. I should express sympathy because her sweetheart has been ripped away? Or because she was raped? Both? Oh, wait, she doesn’t claim she was raped. How is she really being damaged, and by whom?
Did you read the list of those I thought might be responsible enough to have sex? Because those people might be responsible is not a reason to set the age of consent there. There is no guarantee that they will be. Set the age at 21 (what it was when and where, unless you were married, in one place I lived) or even 25.
In the same way, there is no guarantee that the 14 or high school rule I proposed will generate responsible behavior.
The purpose of an age of consent is to say that below there, the presumption is that they can not be responsible. Which means that above that age, they might be. Not will be. Might be. There’s no age where we know they will be. I know a couple that got divorced just before their 51st wedding anniversary; great-grandfather that he was, he decided he had to have an affair, and the bimbo demanded a divorce first. Sex (or the temptations of sex) makes us do the stupid — at any age.
I think it would be wise for young people to graduate from high school before engaging in sexual congress (maybe make that the requirement for consent?) … but that predator I knew was an honors graduate from her high school. Responsible behavior is what’s desired, so we pass laws requiring calendar age.
Rule 4, be sure of your target. We’re doomed.
htom (412a17) — 5/31/2013 @ 10:14 am==express sympathy because her sweetheart has been ripped away==
Ah. I see we’ve come full circle back to the adorable toilet stall sweetheart meme. That’s where it all sort of fell apart the first time, wasn’t it?
elissa (07b801) — 5/31/2013 @ 10:26 amIf the 14 year old doesn’t claim that she was raped, then it naturally follows that she wasn’t damaged?
Really.
There’s no provable psychological trauma unless the victim alleges the violation a specific, enumerated legal statute?
Tell us more, Dr. Fraud.
Icy (e4801a) — 5/31/2013 @ 10:33 am“I’m not expressing sympathy for the 14 year old because she’s not being prosecuted and her name isn’t being pasted on headlines”
htom – The Hunt family plasters the names of “bigoted and hateful” parents of the 14 year old all over social media in their #FreeKate campaign, but I’m sure it is not in an effort to generate harassment or anything and certainly nobody could have figured out the name of the 14 year old from that information.
Get serious.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/31/2013 @ 10:46 amI think that this 14 year old has been damaged by most of the so-called responsible people in her life, and some of that before she became involved with KH — that she did so I consider evidence of that prior damage. That she then ran away from home, to KH, seems to me to confirm that.
Obviously all y’all don’t agree, and think it’s all KH’s fault.
See you on some other thread.
htom (412a17) — 5/31/2013 @ 10:59 amdaleyrocks — as it happens, I haven’t seen it, or the FreeKate page.
cu2
htom (412a17) — 5/31/2013 @ 11:01 ami know exactly what a sexual predator is.
18 year olds who have sex with minor children fall into that category, as does your alleged Lolita.
however, there are vastly more 18 year olds doing what this criminal did then there are underage children going around entrapping adults.
the law is simple, straight forward and easy to understand: if you are 18 or over, you don’t have sexual relations with anyone under that age.
if you do, and the government finds out, you’re toast, and there is nothing mommy & daddy can do about it. i don’t see why this concept is so hard to understand, or to communicate to today’s youth, except for the fact that they likely haven’t been held to account for any other personal choices previously, but that is the parent’s problem, not society’s.
this case is about personal responsibility, and i’m tired of people looking for excuses to avoid exercising any. if you are worried about your kids, or anyone else’s for that matter, winding up in the same boat, the solution is simple: do a better j*b of raising them so they don’t get into a situation like this.
life is tough and it’s tougher when you’re stupid.
and stupid is supposed to be painful, so you learn from your mistakes and do fewer stupid things in the future.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/31/2013 @ 11:22 amand yes, this incident IS all KH’s fault.
all she had to do to avoid the whole mess was to not have sex with a minor child. is that so freaking difficult to understand?
she chose to have sex with a minor, which is against the law, and now she’s facing the consequences of her choices & actions. the only other people in this that i see as having any culpability are the parent’s who raised such an idiot.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 5/31/2013 @ 11:26 am475.I’m not expressing sympathy for the 14 year old because
I find it incomprehensible that you think a 14 yo being exploited by an 18 yo is just fine as long as she doesn’t complain about it, but it does provide clear perspective on your arguments.
Some of the “most messed up” people I’ve known were those who were not able to face the reality of how they were treated growing up. For some it is easier to think that regular beatings and being locked in the basement was normal than come to grips with the reality they were mistreated.
Of course, as long as one thinks being beaten and abused is not being mistreated, there is no hope for a life that is any better.
So if this child grows up thinking her experience as a 14 yo was “just fine and dandy” and the problem is with everyone else, then the worst is yet to come.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 5/31/2013 @ 1:11 pmI’ve read and reread htom’s comments and I find them disturbing. They are NAMBLA’s talking points.
nk (875f57) — 5/31/2013 @ 3:00 pmI’ve read and reread htom’s comments and I find them disturbing. They are NAMBLA’s talking points.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 5/31/2013 @ 3:00 pm
I always figured NAMBLA was something the Boy Scouts lawyer’s invented one day when they were sitting around at the poolhall.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 5/31/2013 @ 3:30 pm“daleyrocks — as it happens, I haven’t seen it, or the FreeKate page.”
htom – Heh! Yet you can draw conclusions without evidence.
Carnak has nothing on you.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/31/2013 @ 3:46 pmWell, daley, he does write, “I think” a lot of times in his posts.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 5/31/2013 @ 4:46 pmit tastes like mango
happyfeet (c60db2) — 5/31/2013 @ 5:03 pmThere was a young lezzie named Kate
The Limerick Avenger (af9ec3) — 6/1/2013 @ 5:44 amShe’s queer, but we shouldn’t hate
The fact that she’s gay
And wanted to play
With a girl who was simply jailbait.
fer sure, our Kate’s on the Hunt
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:11 amher misfortune she bagged a young runt
but some rugs ain’t for chewin’
now she’s sad and blue an’
her folks left to pull cunning stunt
Our Kate, she’s sweet as a dove
The Limerick Avenger (af9ec3) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:15 amAnd we know that she was in love
“I’m not a dude,”
She softly cooed,
As she gave that dildo a shove.
now teh colonel is proud of his dingus
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:19 amand enjoys soothing sounds of Charles Mingus
but one day it will come
no hoist teh flag or beat teh drum
he’ll be glad that he loves cunnilingus
Haiku, we did not need to know
The Limerick Avenger (af9ec3) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:24 amAbout your penile blood flow
Or that you had stooped
Once it had drooped
To only jobs that will blow
out here teh dawn breaks it’s first light
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:28 amand it seems avenger’s ready to fight
but teh colonel needs his coffee
spent all night pulling toffee
’til then ‘venger can go fly kite
The Avenger is having some fun
The Limerick Avenger (af9ec3) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:31 amHe has Haiku on the run!
He’s feeling great
And not tempting fate
To say this is a battle he’s won!
Our Kate has told us
The Senryu Avenger (af9ec3) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:34 amCunnilingus is just great!
Came back to bite her.
and now finest beans have been ground
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:36 amone of teh colonel’s favorite sounds
as is wife’s keen moans
when colonel slips her teh bone
hey! this pitcher’s still on that mound
Dorks!
nk (875f57) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:37 amI’m getting her goat
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:40 amfat man still sits in that boat
give as good as get
teh coffee tastes sweet
Colonel Haiku (c85840) — 6/1/2013 @ 6:49 ambitter prose pearls before swine?
now at five hundred
Dana and Haiku, that was sooooo gay! Do more!
nk (875f57) — 6/1/2013 @ 7:23 amnow it’s nk who spoils for a fight
Colonel Haiku (325299) — 6/1/2013 @ 8:04 amavenger’s blood spill a terrible sight
backs his rig up, he’s grinning
and as he tells it… WINNING!!!
he’s teh legendary “Sailor’s Delight”
I just want to watch.
You guys make a good twosome
nk (875f57) — 6/1/2013 @ 8:13 amBut if I joined in it would be a threesome
And anyway I think that it’s best
For the three of us and the rest
If the two of you just stuck to being handsome.
olive branch offered
Colonel Haiku (325299) — 6/1/2013 @ 8:16 amthere’s some Greek in them there words
wisdom of ages
My resentment now has abated
nk (875f57) — 6/1/2013 @ 8:30 amI do not begrudge you being elated
But I will resign myself to my fate
And regretfully decline to participate
No matter how I am masterfully baited.
An Update on Kate
Finding out more lies from the Hunt family.
Tanny O'Haley (d02a48) — 6/4/2013 @ 11:30 am