Another Reason to Be Down on Chris Christie: He Doesn’t Understand Basic Economics As Well As . . . Ron Paul (Alternate Post Title: Hooray for Price Gouging!)
It was recently reported that New Jersey is going after those damned price gouging gas station owners:
New Jersey authorities filed civil suits Friday accusing seven gas stations and one hotel of price gouging in the wake of Hurricane Sandy.
“New Jersey has a tough price gouging law to ensure that profiteers will not take unfair advantage of people at their most vulnerable — those who have been displaced from their homes, have limited resources, and are seeking fuel, shelter and the basic necessities of life,” said Governor Chris Christie. “Businesses operating in New Jersey will obey our laws — or face significant penalties.”
Thanks, Gov. Christie! What could possibly go wrong?!
Oh — coincidentally, there were significant gas shortages in New Jersey during Sandy.
Any guesses as to why? (Yes, there are a variety of factors, but one of them is economic in nature.)
I sat down to write a tribute to price gouging, which is simply a pejorative name for the raising of prices when depressed supply meets increased demand. But then I found that one had already been written.
By Ron Paul. It’s called In Praise of Price Gouging.
As the northeastern United States continues to recover from Hurricane Sandy, we hear the usual outcry against individuals and companies who dare to charge market prices for goods such as gasoline. The normal market response of rising prices in the wake of a natural disaster and resulting supply disruptions is redefined as “price gouging.” The government claims that price gouging is the charging of ruinous or exploitative prices for goods in short supply in the wake of a disaster and is a heinous crime. But does this reflect economic reality, or merely political posturing to capitalize on raw emotions?
In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, the supply of gasoline was greatly disrupted. Many gas stations were unable to pump gas due to a lack of electricity, thus greatly reducing the supply. At the same time demand for gasoline spiked due to the widespread use of generators. Because gas stations were forbidden from raising their prices to meet the increased demand, miles-long lines developed and stations were forced to start limiting the amount of gasoline that individuals could purchase. New Jersey gas stations began to look like Soviet grocery stores.
Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply. But because prices remained lower than they should have been, no one sought to conserve gas. Low prices signaled that gas was in abundant supply, while reality was exactly the opposite, and only those fortunate enough to be at the front of gas lines were able to purchase gas before it sold out. Not surprisingly, a thriving black market developed, with gas offered for up to $20 per gallon.
With price controls in effect, supply shortages were exacerbated. If prices had been allowed to increase to market levels, the profit opportunity would have brought in new supplies from outside the region. As supplies increased, prices gradually would have decreased as supply and demand returned to equilibrium. But with price controls in effect, what company would want to deal with the hassle of shipping gas to a disaster-stricken area with downed power lines and flooded highways when the same profit could be made elsewhere? So instead of gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones, what little gas supply is left is rapidly sold and consumed.
Exactly 100% right.
This is simple, basic economics. It’s supply and demand. It’s about allocating scarce resources, and providing incentives to meet increased demand.
Bashing the price gougers feels good, I guess. But it’s the wrong thing to do in a crisis. And anyone with any basic economic sense knows it.
I am less impressed with Chris Christie all the time.
What happened in NJ was that people bought as much as they could buy and then scalped it at higher prices once the stations ran out. People were trading sex for fuel it got so bad. So eliminating price gouging doesn’t stop price gouging, it just moves the gouging to the black market and takes the money way from the legitimate market. In other words, it benefits organized (or even disorganized) crime.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 11/13/2012 @ 11:39 pmLiberals (and I include Christie) never have appeared to understand economics.
Maybe it’s a pose, like so much else they do, to win over the hearts and feeble minds of their constituency.
It underlines the failure of our schools and the parents of those students who didn’t take the time to point out the very simple consequences and rewards known as market forces.
Children should be learning it from about age 5. Give them an allowance, that they must earn in some manner, and then watch their dismay when they find that their labor isn’t worth as much as they thought and that prices are a result of supply vs demand. A simple ratio.
I stopped blaming government on November 6, 2012 and now put the blame squarely on the people and those who are parents for our poorly informed, poorly trained and poorly taught to reason logically and factually children.
For the last 50 years.
With a side note thanking all the Teachers and their Union for their assistance. It’s your world. I hope you’re pleased with what you have wrought.
Jcw46 (f23062) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:02 amActually, it looks like Ron Paul stole it from John Stossel, who wrote about it on November 1st, almost two weeks before Paul did. And he even plagiarized Stossel’s title.
peedoffamerican (834b95) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:51 amIn praise of ‘price gouging’
Teh Grate Ron Paul, plagiarizer extraordinaire.
peedoffamerican (834b95) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:56 amAnd Stossel actually gives credit to people that have proposed the idea prior to him, unlike Paul.
“It’s price “gougers” who bring the water, ship the gasoline, fix the roof, and rebuild cities. You might not believe me but will you believe Nobel Prize-winning economists Gary Becker, Vernon Smith and Milton Friedman? All three have said “ gouging” is good. Milton Friedman said, “price ‘gougers’ save lives.”
We benefit when politicians don’t “protect” us with price controls.”
peedoffamerican (834b95) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:03 amAn CC sweats, a lot.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:30 amHere’s another piece by Mises.org
http://mises.org/daily/6278/PostSandy-A-ManMade-Disaster
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:57 amLOL, this is hardly “new”… this idea has been the subject of pieces since the 80s…
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:23 amThree things to remember come the Revolution:
1) GAAP. Half the #$%^%##^ problems we are having with governments AROUND THE WORLD are that they are not required to use GAAP to account for their expenditures and income.
2) Balanced Budget. I’m not certain that a budget needs to be balanced every year, but there should be some period of time where it’s absolutely required to be revenue-neutral. And perhaps never allowed to be negative for more than, say, three years in a row. But this ONLY works in conjunction with GAAP.
3) Prioritization. Every expenditure should have a priority assigned to it by the approving parties. And when crunch times come, the low-priority things should be cut the most, FIRST. This will stop this #@%^%##^ BS of “we have to cut police/fire/EMT services so we can keep the ice-skating rink downtown in the winter, and subsidize the Fall Arts Festival.”
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:40 amHe knows economics. He practices politics.
Amphipolis (d3e04f) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:23 amIt’s New Jersey. The baby is on Long Island. He just got power restored this past Sunday. He had no issues with getting gas for his generator. He stood in line with contractors and other homeowners and businessmen. There was a shortage of five gallon cans. Otherwise, he had help from his neighbors, the police, the firemen, and the National Guard. In his words, “This is a civilized place”.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:41 amI was a big fan of Christie’s. Last year I was calling for him to be the Republican nominee for president.
He’s dead to me now.
gahrie (3fff08) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:46 amChristie has been knocked off stride by the impending Hostess Brands bankruptcy
he’s living in a cold and hostile world now, one he doesn’t understand
he needs all of our love and understanding
good luck with that Chris
happyfeet (e81b57) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:50 amI don’t know the law in New Jersey, but in Illinois there is liability to the electric company for power failures, regardless of cause. So it tries to minimize its damages by restoring power to businesses first, and to homeownwers last. Not a bad thing, actually, I want the grocery store open even if we eat by candlelight.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:55 amWhere are you now, happyfeet?
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:58 amNever could stand Christie.
Big government boy.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:01 amHi I’m heading towards Athens… Then to smoky Mtns national park then up the Appalachian trail as far as my not particularly all-weather scoot scoot will safely take me… then I’m not sure
happyfeet (e81b57) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:02 amHow do you spell jealous?
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:05 amThe problem with Paul’s argument is the left will use it to play class warfare. (e.g. “Only the 1% can afford to pay $20/gallon. What about the poor?”)
Amazed_476 (b4b814) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:07 amWell, on Long Island, nobody gouged as I understand it. Everybody pitched in.
I have been through this, in Chicago. We took care of each other. Have you carried eight gallons of water up 28 (no fooling) floors? Decent people come together in a hard time.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:14 amSo I guess I’m saying that I am not all that upset at Christie’s bitch-slap of some gougers.
And I agree, he has no chance of being President.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:18 amWell remember he was part of the RGGI, that mandates this sort of behavior as a matter of course,
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:24 amAnd he’s as much as denied that there was a hurricane, for insurance purposes.
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:34 amChris Christie is a closet Obamabot….
The Emperor (5dd769) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:42 amPerhaps you meant the 1780s, in which case you’re only off by a decade 🙂
Seriously, Adam Smith explained this, in his clear and entertaining style, back in 1776. He pointed out that famine used to be a recurring part of ordinary life, and it still was in some parts of the world, but in England it was something found only in history books, not living memory. Why was that? The development of international trade in grain, and the ability of speculators to hoard grain in good years in anticipation of making a killing in bad ones. If this were taken away, if they weren’t confident that come the bad years they would be able to make enough money to justify their expenses in the good years, or the expense of laying on extra ships to bring grain in during a bad year, then they wouldn’t bother, and famine would result.
(And of course several decades later we saw what the Corn Laws did in Ireland. Though there the problem was mostly poor communications, so it’s not clear how much better laws could have done. You can’t rush supplies to a shortage, no matter how profitable it would be, if you don’t know that it exists.)
I was critical of those who wrote Christie off for his compliments to 0bama on the day the hurricane struck. I think he was showing class and doing the right thing by his state. But this is a betrayal of the fundamental principles that we stand for. The roots of liberal (now known in America as conservative) politics are in the Anti Corn Law League. That was the ur-cause that everything else flows from. And these principles have been explained since then by just about every popular economist, in terms that a child can understand. I can’t believe Christie has never read them, or didn’t understand. I’m sure he knows this very well, but chose to grandstand. He’s still probably a better governor for NJ than anybody the Ds could muster (except perhaps Booker), but for president? No way.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:10 am==He knows economics. He practices politics==
This. The parts of N.J. that were hit hardest by Sandy were devastated– in some places almost beyond repair. Several of the old industrial cities (Bayonne, Jersey City, etc.) are suffering. Tenants in some of these places are being “evicted” for their “safety” by unscrupulous landlords/management companies and being thrown out on the street, only to be replaced immediately by other desperate renters who are forced to pay outrageous rents for the same shoddy rooms.
Meanwhile, most other parts of NJ are fine and are basically unaffected. Those New Jerseyans have been living their lives almost as normal. Electricity on–no price gouging–yoga classes. The governor’s immediate, very public, and firm stance against the unions to force them to allow out of state utility workers in to restore power– and now his taking on the most egregious of the supply jackals in the poorest of the devastated areas– is giving his constituents both the action and the message they want during this crisis. He’s acting like a governor and he’s hoping to be re-elected. So what.
Yes I know he’s fat and does not have the temperament to be President.
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:25 amSince I understood the analysis; I want more than a pat on the head. An ear scratch and a cookie will do.
Bar Sinister (664312) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:27 amSince I understood the analysis; I want more than a pat on the head. An ear scratch and a cookie will do.
Bar Sinister (664312) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:28 amStart here, but if you’re short on time start here:
And he goes on to explain why, with historical examples and the horrors they brought. And this:
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:30 amSo what is that it’s unscrupulous populism. Giving the mob what they want is precisely what government is not supposed to do. The whole point of government is to restrain the mob and do what’s right.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:52 amWell–Greed is good:
Christie Warns NJ Residents of Post-Storm Tax Hikes…
The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.
BfC (fd87e7) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:16 amWell–Greed is good:
Christie Warns NJ Residents of Post-Storm Tax Hikes…
The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.
BfC (fd87e7) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:16 amFurther the increase in demand was largely irrational. People were topping off and filling tanks even when they had nowhere to go nor generators out of panic. it was like sheep going off a cliff. Right now in NYC there are no more lines and most stations have gas. The market has worked and supply is going up.
Note to all you greens-gas and electricity are the lifeblood of our economy. It would be wonderful to have clean energy like solar or wind. But those technologies are not there yet. Drill.,allow refining capacity, mine coal, fracking….all of it. The last 3 weeks have been a case study in how much we need energy and yet how little those in power appreciate nor undertand that. And we knew all that before this election and put the moron back in anyway. Go figure.
Bugg (ba4ca9) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:20 amFurther the increase in demand was largely irrational. People were topping off and filling tanks even when they had nowhere to go nor generators out of panic. it was like sheep going off a cliff. Right now in NYC there are no more lines and most stations have gas. The market has worked and supply is going up.
Note to all you greens-gas and electricity are the lifeblood of our economy. It would be wonderful to have clean energy like solar or wind. But those technologies are not there yet. Drill.,allow refining capacity, mine coal, fracking….all of it. The last 3 weeks have been a case study in how much we need energy and yet how little those in power appreciate nor undertand that. And we knew all that before this election and put the moron back in anyway. Go figure.
Bugg (ba4ca9) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:21 amFurther the increase in demand was largely irrational. People were topping off and filling tanks even when they had nowhere to go nor generators out of panic. it was like sheep going off a cliff. Right now in NYC there are no more lines and most stations have gas. The market has worked and supply is going up.
Note to all you greens-gas and electricity are the lifeblood of our economy. It would be wonderful to have clean energy like solar or wind. But those technologies are not there yet. Drill.,allow refining capacity, mine coal, fracking….all of it. The last 3 weeks have been a case study in how much we need energy and yet how little those in power appreciate nor undertand that. And we knew all that before this election and put the moron back in anyway. Go figure.
Bugg (ba4ca9) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:21 amChris Christie would be a great president if all the country’s problems could be solved by yelling at teachers.
CrustyB (69f730) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:22 aminsurance rates will go up too cause companies can’t build a hurricane deductible into their models anymore thanks to chubby hubby
happyfeet (5fcf66) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:22 aminsurance rates will go up too cause companies can’t build a hurricane deductible into their models anymore thanks to chubby hubby
happyfeet (5fcf66) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:23 amDiane Feinstein says that Petraeus WILL testify.
We’ll see.
Icy (d470c7) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:32 amLotta echoes here today. oday. day. ay.
Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:17 amWe cannot forgive the lack of guiding principles just because it’s the expedient way to win office. Long term, that is actually why the GOP is not trusted to accomplish anything.
We have lost any semblance of a meaning as a political party, except winning, and the funny thing is that this is not a winning strategy.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:20 amLegal Insurrection:
http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/11/dear-republican-establishment-a-letter-from-the-conservative-grassroots/#more
The NE and Urbanites got their candidate, the one required for his appeal to Indies. They go a disaster to depress Dhimmi vote.
Their candidate ran thru the tape, he was not hindered by funding. They had the worst Incumbent in American history to run against. He lost nearly 10% in voter support.
Unfortunately, the challenger did worse than his predecessor, who suspended his campaign in the homestretch, who was hobbled by lack of funds and a controversial VP pick, who professed not to understand economics.
No biggie, the GOP aparatchiks want another lawyer who appeals to Dhimmis this time.
I don’t believe I can work with these people.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:38 am“insurance rates will go up too cause companies can’t build a hurricane deductible into their models anymore thanks to chubby hubby”
Mr. Feets – New Jersey has a long and proud history of screwing up their insurance markets, as do many states in the Northeast.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:38 am1. Republicans not only don’t understand basic economics, they don’t understand reality.
2. Do you really think anyone cares what you “free-market” disciples really think, given the extraordinary levels of hypocrisy in applying this Faith-based principle?
3. I’m beginning to see that you all clearly prefer to have your heads up your asses rather than anywhere else.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:42 amThe thing is, that as long as price gouging laws exist, shortages are going to occur in natural disaster areas. If I as a private citizen, cannot be allowed to charge what the market will bear, you will be at the mercy of the govt., and we see how well that is working out.
If I take off work, and buy a load of emergency generators, I have to have some assurance that I can sell them at enough of a profit to make the venture worthwhile. I have to recoup the money for my lost time at work, the cost of transportation, and the possibility that they might not all sell. Also some compensation is also expected for traveling thru the dangers that exist in any disaster, ie., downed power lines, flooding, pirates, what-have-you. If I can’t do this, then the result is that no-one gets anything.
Having been a victim of the flood of ’94, I would much rather have the option of buying food, water, gasoline, etc., at a temporarily inflated cost, than to have to totally do without.
But no, people want the govt. to protect them from these evil price gougers, even to the extent of letting the victims do without even the basic means of survival.
No one, or not enough people are going to lose money, risk their lives and safety, to transport essential items to disaster areas unless they have incentives to do so. Just like cabbies refusing fares to go into seedier sections of cities at night, it just ain’t worth the risk.
peedoffamerican (b4bdbc) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:45 am44.1. Buy cheap, sell dear, what else is there to know?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:46 amYeah. We lost an election we should have won. We fought through 2009 and we know who the leaders were of the time (and we know who the leaders weren’t, too!). We triumphed in 2010 and know who the leaders were with the bold endorsements (and we know who the leaders weren’t!, too!).
And in 2011 we took Chris Christie’s advice and nominated the most electable over the leaders with principles. Those who were mostly concerned about winning are the reason we lost.
It sure isn’t because of anything Obama did right.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:47 amPtilly you can FOAD and ESAD, you little insignificant piece of parrot droppings.
peedoffamerican (b4bdbc) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:51 amDemocrats can’t do basic math, and PT claims that Republicans don’t understand economics? How droll.
Obama is financing his overspending by selling almost all of Federal bonds to the Federal Reserve in exchange for money freshly printed with the ink still damp, and PT thinks Republicans don’t understand economics?
We are just weeks away from financial collapse due to Obama’s failure of leadership, months away from Weimar style inflation, and day away from another recession … and PT thinks Republicans don’t understand economics?
Democratic economics have given us the worse unemployment since the Great Depression. The worst recovery from recession in my lifetime.
PT shows just how dishonest Democrats are.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:52 amDemocrats can’t do basic math, and PT claims that Republicans don’t understand economics? How droll.
Obama is financing his overspending by selling almost all of Federal bonds to the Federal Reserve in exchange for money freshly printed with the ink still damp, and PT thinks Republicans don’t understand economics?
We are just weeks away from financial collapse due to Obama’s failure of leadership, months away from Weimar style inflation, and day away from another recession … and PT thinks Republicans don’t understand economics?
Democratic economics have given us the worse unemployment since the Great Depression. The worst recovery from recession in my lifetime.
PT shows just how dishonest Democrats are.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:52 amDo you really think anyone cares what you “free-market” disciples really think
You do. Obsessively so. We haven’t had a hate-filled ranger like you in a long while. Your hate is only rivaled by your aggressive stupidity.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:58 amIt’s not that all democrats don’t understand economics.
I think Cloward and Pivens and Obama understand economics pretty well, actually.
Those who have a private sector job and voted for their agenda are crazy, but unfortunately we have plenty of voters who are interested in a government that provides Masscare or a New Jersey prosecution of free enterprise. We’ve got voters who are convinced they are dependent on the Obama Phone and food stamps. Those folks are only showing a lack of understanding if they think this will go on forever.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:59 am“Democrats can’t do basic math, and PT claims that Republicans don’t understand economics? How droll.”
True, that’s why Mitt Romney won the presidency, right, as your Republican math was telling you.
“We are just weeks away from financial collapse due to Obama’s failure of leadership, months away from Weimar style inflation, and day away from another recession … and PT thinks Republicans don’t understand economics?”
Ahh, the Republican prognosticators are at it again. Don’t you even feel a tiny bit chastened by your stunning failure in predicting the outcome of the election? Perhaps you need to take a break from predicting ANYTHING, as it DOES require a basic knowledge of math, data, facts, etc…you know, REALITY.
You people are the living embodiment of an ongoing Onion parody.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:20 amIt’s a stunning failure that republicans were confident that Obama would lose? Why? Isn’t that just normal? Obama lost so much support, after all.
And this prediction being wrong means we shouldn’t discuss economic facts anymore? I don’t see how they relate.
I think you’re just trolling because like many other democrats, you do not understand how to be magnanimous. Or perhaps you are unable to be because you realize Obama’s agenda does not offer anything to those who are concerned about the economy.
There’s no need to be so hateful. You are doing yourself more harm than you’re doing anyone else.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:26 am“Do you really think anyone cares what you “free-market” disciples really think”
Petey – For you it is all about the appearance of caring about caring because you believe yourself to be such a tolerant and compassionate person, which you demonstrate here day after day with the irrational and incoherent hate in your comments.
You are a perfect example of the community-based reality.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:35 am“Don’t you even feel a tiny bit chastened by your stunning failure in predicting the outcome of the election?”
Petey – No. As I recall you could not even present a positive case for the reelection of Obama and fled from the blog every time you were asked to make that case.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:38 am53. Arguing about the timeline is immature, the fact is economic collapse is inevitable.
American banks, according to Congressman Paul and hedge fund managers, is in hock to EU Banks more than a $1 Trillion. The cascade of defaults that erase that asset will be launched in the coming year.
Prezzy has opened ‘Fiscal Cliff’ negotiation with 75% tax increases and 25% spending cuts on top of the Obamaneycare tax increases in the offing.
Over the next six months millions of full-time jobs will become part-time.
Federal debt incurred for the month of October is up 22% over last year.
Federal debt cost 15% of revenues last year.
US Treasury debt will face increased competition with ECB and BOJ debt paying higher rates. The Federal Reserve is not competing for the 70% of US Debt that is short-term.
Despite any further increase in tax rates, revenues for 2013 will be down as economic activity is collapsing. Profits will be taken in 2012.
Now how about your ‘knowledge’.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:39 amdaleyrocks and I disagree about many things, but he’s exactly right about this troll.
Obama beat Romney by less than one percent. Obama lost tons of support and given the economic disaster he is presiding over, it is indeed surprising to me that Obama won.
But as I said, he won by less than one percent. It’s not like he sailed to win, repudiating those who thought it would go the other way.
It is shameful that this troll uses the name of a fallen soldier in order to make his trolling more aggravating. As daleyrocks says, he’s showing incoherent hate.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:40 amTake a gander:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/14/news/economy/obama-taxes-deficit/index.html?iid=Lead
Something approaching 80% of American jobs are held in small businesses, 250 employees or fewer.
A good portion of these are S-Chapter, meaning the owner’s income includes the businesses’ profits.
Profits that are generally ploughed back into the business as re-investment to improve its competitive footing and perhaps to expand the business possibly even to create jobs.
More taxes means less investment and fewer jobs.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:01 amBen Franklin was doing a pretty good job getting the idea across in the 1760s.
On the Price of Corn, and Management of the Poor
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:10 amThe unsustainable course, that Dusty referred to somewhere above, is more than 40% of the Federal ‘budget’ is borrowed.
Just in interest paid, that’s $280 Billion or one tenth of revenues, other costs up the debt to $400 Billion.
But there’s another cost, that of malinvestment. Every dollar of GNP spent by the government is unavailable for consumers and businesses to spend. True, some of the money is paid in wages but much is wasted, in kickbacks to bad actors, in redundant expenditures, etc.
A dollar of Federal spending currently generates 40 cents of economic activity and that rate of return is declining.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:12 amgary gulrud–I always thought they (small business) would see why Obama absolutely had to go and that they would talk turkey to their employees about this situation. But now I sure wish I knew with certainty that all these business owners–especially S-chapter– voted for Romney for the reasons you state (rather than voting against Romney for various other reasons that could have tugged at them more strongly).
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:12 amCorrect. And to answer the troll’s question, people care very much what we “free-market disciples” think.
I notice they’re screaming like stuck pigs now we’re stuck with ObamaCare that we’re announcing lay-offs and that, since we can’t afford full-time workers, the ones who keep their jobs are going to be working part-time.
Just wait until you can’t find a doctor because of the “savings” Obama plans to find in MediCaid/MediCare by announcing the government is just going to decree it will pay less than what if formerly paid for the same service.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:17 am61. “other costs up the [yearly cost of the] debt to”
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:17 amCorrect. And to answer the troll’s question, people care very much what we “free-market disciples” think.
I notice they’re screaming like stuck pigs now we’re stuck with ObamaCare that we’re announcing lay-offs and that, since we can’t afford full-time workers, the ones who keep their jobs are going to be working part-time.
Just wait until you can’t find a doctor because of the “savings” Obama plans to find in MediCaid/MediCare by announcing the government is just going to decree it will pay less than what if formerly paid for the same service.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:18 am“It’s a stunning failure that republicans were confident that Obama would lose? Why? Isn’t that just normal? Obama lost so much support, after all.”
LOL, guess you missed MC Rove on Faux News on election night. Confidence does not begin to describe the CERTAINTY that many of you projected about the election outcome.
And why is this relevant? Well, clearly, nitwits like SPQR (who besmirches Romans by use of this acronym) are now projecting CERTAINTY about the direction of the economy, to which Republicans have demonstrated an even greater level (if that’s possible) of denial of basic facts and data.
Faith has replaced reality for your party.
If you are reality based, I would get out now or fight for an awakening.
Or, just continue to bash people who (delight in) pointing out your delusional stupidity since it can only help drive Anti-American Conservatism/Republicanism/Libertarianism/Idiocy further into the grave.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:19 amI don’t know why the double post; I didn’t submit it twice.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:20 am“I notice they’re screaming like stuck pigs now we’re stuck with ObamaCare that we’re announcing lay-offs and that, since we can’t afford full-time workers, the ones who keep their jobs are going to be working part-time.”
Love this trope.
So Papa John’s would rather fire people than charge a mere 13cents more per pizza to pay for the alleged burden of Obamacare?
You are delusional if you think people are buying your crap anymore. No one needs to give Wingnuts any excuse to be assholes, you are natural born.
Blaming Obamacare for the sociopathic behavior of Wingnuts is laughable, you weasel.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:22 amThanks to the party of “free stuff!” the economy will end up in the grave before that happens.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:23 amThanks to the party of “free stuff!” the economy will end up in the grave before that happens.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:24 am“A dollar of Federal spending currently generates 40 cents of economic activity and that rate of return is declining.”
The best argument for gutting the Defense budget that I’ve ever seen…thanks Wingnut.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:24 am62. Who voted and how requires honest pollsters and candid voters. We may have a paucity of both.
I think the next 18 months will concentrate thinking a bit further.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:24 amTillie demonstrates that Obama has put together a coalition of economic illiterates.
You can’t add enough to the price of a pizza when providing government mandated health insurance adds $1.79 to the hourly cost of a full-time worker, and the fine adds $.98.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:28 am71. Actually a bit off target, Enlightened One.
Bombs and munitions are good business, wages paid, profits reinvested, inventories rebuilt.
Now school administrators-there’s a bad investment for you. Mail carriers stuffing subsidized chaff in your box, is another.
The Papa Johns CEO is a Dhimmi.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:30 am“Thanks to the party of “free stuff!” the economy will end up in the grave before that happens.”
Ahh, Steve, still got those absolutely idiotic Faux news false memes stuck in your head, eh?
Just hold them there until 2014, OK?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:32 amComment by P. Tillman — 11/14/2012 @ 11:22 am
Then you should have no trouble starting a pizza chain, charging 13 cents more per pizza and marketing that it is the patriotic thing to do, and putting Papa John out of business.
Please come back when you have demonstrated your point, and I’ll not only buy a pizza, but give a tip.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:34 am“You can’t add enough to the price of a pizza when providing government mandated health insurance adds $1.79 to the hourly cost of a full-time worker, and the fine adds $.98.”
Oh. My. God. Arguing with a brainwashed member of the faith-based Wingnut community is certainly an exercise in tolerance.
“News flash to Papa John’s CEO John Schnatter: Obamacare isn’t the only thing costing your business money.
The pizza chain head has made his views on the Affordable Care Act clear in recent months, claiming the new health care law will cost his business about $5 to $8 million per year. To compensate Schnatter’s said he will likely raise pizza prices and cut back some workers’ hours so he doesn’t have to insure them.
Caleb Melby of Forbes has graciously done the math on Obamacare’s cost to Papa John’s and according to his analysis, to cover the cost of Obamacare, the pizza chain would have to raise prices by 3.4 to 4.6 cents per pie — way less than the 11 to 14 cents Schnatter claims he needs.
And there are other changes the chain could make to save some money, Melby notes, like not giving away 2 million pizzas for free at a cost of between $24 and $32 million to the company, for example.”
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:34 amIllman’s daily hatefest never fails to illuminate its anger and hatred. And it’s ignorance of economics, or the reality of business decisions. Papa Johns really got under their skin, so they focus on pizza rather than the countless others that arrived at the same business decision.
JD (185efa) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:35 amBTW, sorry about interjecting math and facts…I know you are all severely allergic to such annoyances.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:36 am62. Cont. The house Liberal just told me yesterday AM as I drove the girls to their appointed rounds, that our bottom line was in better shape for the change of hands in the MN Legislature. I had to agree.
Then she said, she didn’t know “whether 15 years down the road we’d pay for it” but for now she felt more secure.
In my chastened disposition, I let the 15 pass.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:36 amShorter JD:
“I have nothing to add except #$*Y#$(WY#! ”
LOL…what pathetic moron.
You accuse me of hate to justify your own, sociopath.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:39 amCopypasta from HuffPo is terribly convincing.
JD (185efa) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:39 am79. No need, I’ve a minor in Math. Do you use the 1040EZ?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:40 amI’m disappointed too. Where’s the beef?
1. Mock unions.
2. ???
3. Run for president.
Patricia (be0117) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 am“And it’s ignorance of economics, or the reality of business decisions.”
Yeah, whatever you say nitwit. Unfortunately you are in no position to judge anyone on their economic knowledge or business acumen, clearly. You’re a Wingnut Failure.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 am2+2=4; 2-2=0; 2-3= a problem
This is true for our household budget, it is also true for the national budget. The national budget gets to fudge a little because it can print money and I can’t, but that works only so long.
We don’t need to argue this. As Mark Steyn says, reality doesn’t need to try to convince anyone of anything, it just is. The only question is how many years post Bush can Obama and company get away with blaming him for the problem, and will the economic collapse happen within that span or not; and, if not, will the Dems be successful in their attempt to blame the Repubs anyway.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 amTillie, unlike this Melby character I’m not using Papa John’s numbers.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 amI did not curse at you, nor do I hate you. So your comment was misguided on many levels.
JD (185efa) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 amTillie, unlike this Melby character I’m not using Papa John’s numbers.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:41 am“79. No need, I’ve a minor in Math. Do you use the 1040EZ?”
Did they teach you to ignore data that conflicted with a model?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:44 amTalk about delusional stupidity.
The Fix 2010: Pelosi predicts Democrats will hold the House.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/morning-fix/31-pelosi-predicts-democrats-hold-house.html
WAPO July 2010: In a new fundraising email from the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Pelosi guarantees in no uncertain terms that Democrats will retain control of the House of Representatives.
“Here is what will happen in November. Democrats will keep control of the House. Period.”
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/07/pelosi-guarantees-victory-in-n.html?wprss=44
Hey! How’d those confident lefty predictions turn out, Tillman? Tillman???
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:44 amThe only Rule of Supply & Demand that politicians know is the one that applies to votes; that to get more of them, they have to give out more freebies.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:45 amMaster Tillman, how much Federal tax did you pay in 2011, after exemptions, deductions, credits and transfers?
Just a round number will do.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:46 am“The pizza chain head has made his views on the Affordable Care Act clear in recent months, claiming the new health care law will cost his business about $5 to $8 million per year. To compensate Schnatter’s said he will likely raise pizza prices and cut back some workers’ hours so he doesn’t have to insure them.”
That’s why you can’t tax the rich without also taxing the not-so-rich.
There isn’t a business on planet earth that won’t do exactly the same thing (whether they publically admit it or not). They aren’t going to take a hit on their profit margin…and that’s just the way it is.
Tax them and they’re just going to pass on the tax in either lower wages or higher prices.
Welcome to the real world, leftoids.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:49 am“Copypasta from HuffPo is terribly convincing.”
FORBES magazine nitwit.
OMG, can you be even more pathetic and delusional?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:51 am“Master Tillman, how much Federal tax did you pay in 2011, after exemptions, deductions, credits and transfers?”
More than most people make in a year, Wingnut. What’s it to you?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:53 am“This is true for our household budget, it is also true for the national budget”
What a nitwit, the two are NOTHING alike.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 11:56 amDown she goes, where she stops nobody knows.
Market that is, dropping from 100 to 120 as I write. China’s yuan at record high against the dollar.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:00 pm“Hey! How’d those confident lefty predictions turn out, Tillman? Tillman???”
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Poor little elissa, this really is way too much for you’re little pea brain to deal with isn’t it?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:01 pmBoehner adds Ryan to negotiations with Schlong:
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/267867-boehner-tells-gop-fiscal-cliff-talks-could-take-awhile
I predict presidential outrage.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:09 pmOne of Won’s overseers in hot soup:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/14/news/companies/corzine-mf-global/index.html?iid=HP_LN
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:27 pmhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/papa-johns-obamacare_n_2123207.html
News flash to Papa John’s CEO John Schnatter: Obamacare isn’t the only thing costing your business money.
The pizza chain head has made his views on the Affordable Care Act clear in recent months, claiming the new health care law will cost his business about $5 to $8 million per year. To compensate Schnatter’s said he will likely raise pizza prices and cut back some workers’ hours so he doesn’t have to insure them.
They go on to reference Forbes, but your copypasta was lifted from HuffPo, verbatim.
Illman was right about 1 thing, a household budget and the federal budget are not the same. Households cannot print money, take from others, or borrow trillions on end.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:31 pm“cut back some workers’ hours so he doesn’t have to insure them.”
Hope everyone that eats at that dump will like the taste of disgruntled employee spit (or worse) as one of their “secret” toppings.
Wingnut asshole deserves his place in hell.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:40 pm“Households cannot print money, take from others, or borrow trillions on end.”
You mean all the things REPUBLICAN administrations love to do when their in power but complain about when they’re not?
Check.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:41 pmYou are delusional if you think people are buying your crap anymore. No one needs to give Wingnuts any excuse to be assholes, you are natural born.
Pat Tillman,
I’m curious why you remain so angry? Obama has won a second term and will be enacting fiscal policies , etc, that you appear to believe are essential, so it makes me curious why you have such anger when discussing him. There is no post-election joy or seeming happiness, let alone relief. Just a caustic disdain.
I think if I were in “enemy” territory and trying to convince others of the positive outcomes of my candidate winning the election, the principles and platforms would sell themselves and my dose of good will and cheer because of my real belief in my candidate elected as president would be a natural response.
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:42 pm“They go on to reference Forbes, but your copypasta was lifted from HuffPo, verbatim.”
Congratulations on learning to use Teh Googly thing, wingnut.
The relevant part of the post (i.e., the data) originated from Forbes…making your summary dismissal (that you’re now squirming sheepishly away from) the more idiotic.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:42 pm“I’m curious why you remain so angry? ”
I’m curious why you care.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:46 pmMD in Philly, the fact that most of the Federal bonds issued in the last couple of years have been bought by the Federal Reserve, using money that the ink is still damp on, would be a huge danger flag to any rational person. In just the last year, the Federal Reserve’s holdings in Federal securities has increased by as much as the annual deficit. A fact that is beyond imagination.
It indicates that the demand for Treasury debt is far softer than the media would have you believe. And it indicates that there is building up an immense inflationary snap in the financial system when those empty inflated dollars finally fail to find buyers.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:49 pmOMG. What a moron. Why do you suppose they give those pizzas away? Out of the goodness of their hearts?! They obviously do so because they’ve calculated that it increases sales by more than enough to offset the cost. It follows that they believe not giving them away will lose money, not save it. So how would that help?
This is exactly the same as suggesting that they save money by cutting back on advertising, or on lighting, or that if they stopped sending out invoices they’d save on postage.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:51 pmI am curious because you appear to be utterly disdainful of those with whom you disagree. You are caustic and extreme in your venom. If Obama’s election is the outcome you had hoped for, why not try to convince people of the positivity of that?
It makes me ask because I always notice how angry the left seems. Little joy or happiness or peace of mind. Motivated by anger and dissatisfaction. Which is strange considering a victorious election. Do you find it curious?
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:51 pmBreaking news – Hate filled troll accuses blog commenters of being haters. Film at 11:00.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:52 pm“I am curious because you appear to be utterly disdainful of those with whom you disagree. ”
You mean the liars and delusional sociopaths that populate this site?
No amount of reason can penetrate the thick skull of a Converted Wingnut Faithful. That much I know with near certainty after nearly a decade of visiting the black bowels of the internet.
I’d be an idiot to even try.
The disdain is well deserved.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:56 pmHow do you know? Did you check it yourself?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:58 pm(that you’re now squirming sheepishly away from
I am walking away from nothing. You lifted that from HuffPo. Nobody is questioning that they were talking about the Forbes article. Your dishonesty is remarkable.
And your act is getting old.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:59 pm“More than most people make in a year, Wingnut. What’s it to you?”
LOL.
Something tells me Illman isn’t exactly pulling down the fat bank.
Welfare leech.
Welfare leeches are like any other kind of thief…most of them have to work up a good hate against the people they’re stealing from, in order to justify what it is they’re doing.
That’s why you see all the hate, rage and minor league violence from the Ocuupy loons.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 12:59 pmDid Pelosi keep the House in 2010 as she predicted and guaranteed, Tillman? Are you just extra angry she didn’t win it back in 2012 so you could have single party dictatorship again?
Do you have someone in your life who cares for you and might read over your posts to help you understand how unhinged and off kilter your rants look to normal people?
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:00 pm“More than most people make in a year, Wingnut. What’s it to you?”
LOL.
Something tells me Illman isn’t exactly pulling down the fat bank.
Welfare leech is most likely his occupation.
Welfare leeches are like any other kind of thief…most of them have to work up a good hate against the people they’re stealing from, in order to justify what it is they’re doing.
That’s why you see all the hate, rage and minor league violence from the Ocuupy loons. Same with Illman.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:01 pmDRJ and Patterico previously agreed to ban this hate-filled liar that tarnishes the memory of the name he abuses.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:01 pm“Welfare leech is most likely his occupation.”
So predictable…haven’t you morons realized that your ideology has little or no predictive value and is therefore worthless?
Since it serves no utilitarian value, it must serve the purpose of propping up YOUR intense hatred, racism and prejudice (which you attempt to disguise by accusing others of, laughably).
Take ownership of your stupidity, it’s the only consistent trait you have.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:09 pmObama top donor’s firm lays off employees due to Obamacare.
Obamacare is a failure.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:11 pmObama top donor’s firm lays off employees due to Obamacare.
Obamacare is a failure.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:12 pm“hate-filled liar ”
But at the same time they allow hate-filled, America-hating sociopathic liars like yourself to make posts.
Interesting ain’t it?
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:12 pmPat Tillman,
You do not present any principles or,policy views that would convince a conservative that there is a better option. Aside from your nastiness, what you’re espousing here on this thread in the last 20 comments or so, don’t really make sense. People are in business to make money, provide a service or product, and in turn, employ people.
You are seemingly unable to articulate your views, coherently. If you are representative of the left, why would any one here want to even consider it?
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:15 pm“Obamacare is a failure.”
Since it hasn’t cured Wingnuts of being total assholes yet.
Agreed, total FAIL.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:16 pmDRJ and Patterico previously agreed to ban this hate-filled liar that tarnishes the memory of the name he abuses.
Maybe we need him to stick around to give us a constant reminder of the sheer wretchedness of the loony left.
JVW (4826a9) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:17 pmBTW, if you think this is “hate”, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet rubes.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:19 pmIt’s very weird. Your guy won. Why be so nasty? What do you get out of this?
Maybe you just have nothing better to do with your life. Whatever happened to you to fill your heart with so much hatred must be a real shame. My guess is that your parents have a lot to answer for.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:19 pmBecause all they have is hatred, Dustin. Its the sum of their ideology.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:20 pmI realize math is hard for Tillie, but it’s easy to work out how much things are going to cost.
If I have 100 employees who are defined as full time equivalent workers as it’s defined by the GAO (411.25 hours per quarter) then I’ll get 1645 hours out of each worker per year.
Or 164500 hours out of the whole crew.
But I’ll have to pay a $2k fine on all but the first 20 employees, or $160k (note to Tillie; that’s 2000×80).
When you look at how much it increases my labor costs it’s over .97 cents per worker per hour.
Basically when you are going to arbitrarily add $160K to an company’s overhead then something has got to give. If I could add $160K to my company’s bottom line tomorrow I’d have already done it. So jacking up the prices won’t work.
If you’re a company with 49 employees then in addition to justifying the salary for that 50th employee now you have to justify the $60k fine you’re going to get hit with (note to Tillie; that’s 30×2000).
Say bye bye to job creation. ObamaCare is anti-growth. It’s a financial disincentive to growing your business larger.
But then that was done on purpose. ObamaCare got a lot of input from companies that are large enough to have lobbyists, and they don’t want companies that aren’t yet getting that large so they can compete with them.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:20 pm“Something tells me….”
You morons still don’t get it…that “something” you’ve been listening to is feeding you GARBAGE and LIES.
But pigs apparently enjoy this type of sustenance.
You all like being pigs?
Why don’t you donate more money to MC Rove for 2014.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:22 pmThat’s your aspiration in life? To be a more hateful troll?
I don’t get around here as much as I used to, but every time I do you are spending your entire day freaking out that conservatives actually exist. I can’t resist wondering if all this energy you have would be put to better use at a job.
And now we come to the root of your support for the president of food stamps and Obamaphones.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:22 pmSteve57, I’ve seen estimates of a dollar and a half extra per hour.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:23 pmSince it hasn’t cured Wingnuts of being total assholes yet
Are you calling me an asshole, pat Tillman? What have I done to merit that?
With comments like that, Pat Tillman, you remind us all of just how narrow minded and bigoted the left truly is.
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:25 pm“you are spending your entire day freaking out that conservatives actually exist.”
You make it sound like it takes some kind of actual effort to refute the idiocy on this site…LOL.
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:26 pmAnd yet here you are.
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:27 pmHilarious how quickly you all retreat to the familiar hating and piling-on instead of confronting the reality of your failed ideology.
Thanks for playing, once again…
P. Tillman (fcbc8b) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:29 pmSPQR, for the $2k per employee fine? I haven’t seen any estimates that high. But it really depends upon the numbers, both of employees and how many hours they work. And now under ObamaCare anyone working more than 30 hours per week is full time.
If those same 100 employees worked 30 hours per week then the labor costs would go up $1.03 per employee per hour. And that’s assuming they work 30 hours per week every week of the year. Obviously that figure is understating the cost somewhat.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:30 pmAnd price is a very good proxy for need.
Those who need more, are willing to pay.
Space Cockroach (8096f2) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:30 pmSeems like it.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:31 pmI missed where the wretched disingenuous troll refuted anything. It lifted material from another without attribution, and then started screaming and calling names. It is surreal.
Illman wants it’s revenge.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:32 pmI disagree with Paul (& Patterico). Not with the economics or the law of supply & demand, but the assertion that:
“Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply.”
This is just wishful thinking. Money talks. Need walks.
If fact, Need is more likely to push some poor bastard to get to the gas station early and be one of the lucky few to get price controlled gas.
The idea that allowing prices to skyrocket would magically lead to “gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones” is not hard-nosed economics, but wishful thinking. Temporary price rises are not going to get disrupted distribution systems back on line any faster.
Paul’s argument might be econ 101, but he needs a little more econ 201.
Erik (5ee643) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:33 pm“Why be so nasty?”
It’s to justify in their minds, the stealing they’re doing.
You don’t steal from people you like.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:37 pmIt’s called “math.” I realize based upon your demonstrated level of intelligence you consider math “hating” and forcing you to confront it is considered “piling-on.” But there you go.
You remind me of the idiots who came up with this abortion of a health care bill. And by that I mean Obama and the Congressional Dems.
Recall how they were warned by CEOs from companies like Caterpillar, John Deere, or ATT&T that if they passed the bill into law they’d have to announce billion dollar losses to their shareholders.
The Dems told them they were lying, and passed the bill. The CEOs weren’t lying; they announced billion dollar losses.
The Dems accused them of playing politics and scheduled hearings. Then those hearings quietly went away because those companies had to announce those losses in the quarter in which they learn of them per SEC regulations. And they can’t make false statements in SEC-required communications with their shareholders.
ObamaCare, the whole thing, is going to work like that. You’d know that if you could do math let alone run a company. But like I said Obama put together a coalition that’s so dumbed down they can’t grasp even simple math.
The Dem coalition really doesn’t believe you need more money coming in then going out. Kali is a case study in that regard. If you’re capable of grasping that concept you can go into business. If you’re not you need to go into Democratic politics.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:42 pmIt’s called “math.” I realize based upon your demonstrated level of intelligence you consider math “hating” and forcing you to confront it is considered “piling-on.” But there you go.
You remind me of the idiots who came up with this abortion of a health care bill. And by that I mean Obama and the Congressional Dems.
Recall how they were warned by CEOs from companies like Caterpillar, John Deere, or ATT&T that if they passed the bill into law they’d have to announce billion dollar losses to their shareholders.
The Dems told them they were lying, and passed the bill. The CEOs weren’t lying; they announced billion dollar losses.
The Dems accused them of playing politics and scheduled hearings. Then those hearings quietly went away because those companies had to announce those losses in the quarter in which they learn of them per SEC regulations. And they can’t make false statements in SEC-required communications with their shareholders.
ObamaCare, the whole thing, is going to work like that. You’d know that if you could do math let alone run a company. But like I said Obama put together a coalition that’s so dumbed down they can’t grasp even simple math.
The Dem coalition really doesn’t believe you need more money coming in then going out. Kali is a case study in that regard. If you’re capable of grasping that concept you can go into business. If you’re not you need to go into Democratic politics.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:42 pmComment by SPQR 11/14/2012 @ 12:49 pm
Do you think that this might have something to do with the falling value of the Dollar against the Chinese Yuan?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:44 pmIt is a shame pat Tillman cannot articulate a position and actually challenge conservative principles or policy he objects to. We on the right need to be challenged and forced to present a cogent argument in support of said positions. This goes back to the election and convincing people why these are solid positions…
Dana (292dcf) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:44 pmYou know what’s even more of a shame, Dana?
He thinks he is articulating a position.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:48 pmBut, but, Steve57, Pillman pays more in taxes than most of us make…
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:48 pmHe said so!
You know what’s even more of a shame, Dana?
He thinks he is articulating a position.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:48 pmSeriously, folks, while we wait for the inevitable ban to come down on Tillman (who will no doubt return down the road with a different screen name), let’s take a moment to register true pity for how horrible his life must have been to date to make him such a bitter, angry, petulant, delusional, petty, small-minded, hopeless troll. There are a lot of people out there with major, major problems, and from time to time some of them come over to this blog to spew their bile.
Tillman, I am going to pray for you. I mean that. Mostly because I really do sense that you have deep-seated problems, but also partly because I am sure it enrages you to think that I am doing so.
JVW (4826a9) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:49 pmRed herring. Who said anything about getting the system back on line faster? Though the right to charge what the market bears in an emergency would have hardened the system and made it less likely to fail in the first place. And it would have brought parts of it back sooner, as people worked hard to be the first back on line and able to take advantage of crisis prices before everyone else came on line and drove the price down. But the claim you’re criticising isn’t saying either of those things, but rather making the very obviously true claim that a temporary rise in prices would induce people to bring in shipments from elsewhere, where there is plenty. What has that got to do with bringing the system back on line?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 1:57 pmI think this P. Tillman person is frustrated with his own life, and rather than look inward, and ask if there are aspects of his lack of accomplishment that he’s responsible for, he prefers to blame his political opponents.
The sad thing, is that after eight years of His Holy Obama occupying the White House, this P. Tillman person will likely still be in the same predicament, and he’ll be ranting and raving at the GOP nominee in 2016—oblivious to the fact that the occupant of the White House is not a predicate for P. Tillman’s own personal success.
But I suppose that ranting and raving makes him feel better. Then again, his man won the recent election, and it doesn’t sound like P. Tillman feels better.
Oops.
Better re-check that paradigm !
Elephant Stone (65d289) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:03 pmPT mirrors the dishonesty of Obama – after all, its Obama who claims “Our plan worked” when the result has been more months of high unemployment than all the other presidents post war combined.
That’s what “worked” means to Obama and PT. And so when PT says that our ideology “failed” …
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:04 pmWe had some fuss about price gouging here after the earthquakes last Feb in Christchurch.
I remember that one of the complains was the high cost of petrol in Kaikoura, which is the only major stop for hours if you leave Christchurch to go north. (Also Christchurch had a run on fuel and there was a shortage for a couple of days. It was pretty much just panic buying as there was plenty at the port.)
Ask the dumasses who were pushing the story what the price of petrol in Kaikoura *normally* is compared to major centers and you got a big fat blank look. Of course, being so remote the “increase” was actually pretty normal and any extra probably reflected the fact that the petrol was being shipped across from Wellington via ferry which would odviously be more expensive…
scrubone (e7e0ea) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:06 pmPetey’s comments today sound a lot like our old friend harpy who thought it was good sport to mock the intelligence of Trig Palin.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:19 pmI’m going to follow JVW’s lead in praying for the troll.
Also, Gutfeld’s column on hate is an interesting read.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:23 pmAnd there are other changes the chain could make to save some money, Melby notes, like not giving away 2 million pizzas for free at a cost of between $24 and $32 million to the company, for example.”
Gazzer (43ed78) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:40 pmSo, each pie costs between $12-$16 to make? I doubt that very much.
Comment by peedoffamerican — 11/14/2012 @ 12:51 am
Actually, it looks like Ron Paul stole it from John Stossel, who wrote about it on November 1st, almost two weeks before Paul did. And he even plagiarized Stossel’s title.
In praise of ‘price gouging’
Before John Stossel, there was Holman Jenkins in the Wall Street Journal.
Hug a Price Gouger – BUSINESS WORLD October 30, 2012, 5:42 p.m. ET
And before Holman Jenkins, there was Rob Port:
In Defense Of “Price Gouging” Written By: Rob Port Oct 30, 2012 12:09pm SayAnythingBlog.com
Also look at:
Holman Jenkins: Businesses care more about their reputation with customers than they actually care about their customers Mark J. Perry | November 1, 2012, 4:49 pm
Price gouging: Can economics justify a price cap – Posted on October 30, 2012 by Michael Giberson ?
This contains many additional links, like what I linked to above:
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/in-defense-of-price-gouging/” target=”_blank
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:44 pmThere were a lot of people offering to sell gasoline at very high prices to people on long lines.
Hotels also raised prices but one person explained that was just normal procedure – they always raise the rates when the vacancy rate goes down.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:44 pmAn alternative point of view and an argument with it:
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/10/jeff_ely_on_pri.html
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:48 pmIf there is no burden, why does the government need penalties for a mandate? The burden is heavy. Particularly for Americans who want full time work.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:49 pmThe problem is it might be very unfair to some poeople.
You could also allow double the price if the extra was donated to storm relief – of course if given to the Red Cross it would be of no use to anyone.
Businesses that arrange to give money to the Red Cross are just pretending to help or don’t know any better which is not good.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:51 pmhttp://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/10/29/163861383/why-economists-love-price-gouging-and-why-its-so-rare
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:52 pmMilhouse:
I meant on TV and in the popular press. It may well have predated that point in both places, too, but that’s when I first started encountering references to it, along with the Broken Window Fallacy. Prior to that, i.e., “through the 70s”, there was certainly no reference of any kind to such ideas anywhere to be found. It was only with the rise of conservative memes that such expressions actually managed to find (or re-find) public voices able to be heard.
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:52 pmPTillman-“More than most people make in a year, Wingnut. What’s it to you?”
Translation: “You know who I am, don’t you?”
Birdbath (716828) — 11/14/2012 @ 2:55 pmTranslation: “No that’s not a roll of Necco Wafers in my pocket.”
Translation: “I think people only make seven dollars a year.”
The hate-filled deranged leftists will wind up doing a Chick Fil A to Papa Johns.
JD (185efa) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:02 pmSammy, you don’t get the purpose of the increased prices.
The price mechanism in capitalism is a SIGNAL to the MARKET.
It does two things:
1) It tells the consumer to lay the eph off.
2) It tells the provider “HEY!! Divert some supply over here, man!!”
Your proposition does allow for “1” but fails part “2”.
It also fails if it’s a service and not a good. Suppose I’m an electrical power contractor for the local utility companies in, say, Tennessee. Why the hell should I go up there to help if I’m not going to get paid one more dime (ok, not MORE than one more dime) than I’m able to get at home in Tennessee with my wife and kids every night? When I’m likely incurring extra EXPENSES going up there (hotels, gas to get there, etc.) as well?
Eph that!! I’ll stay home in my nice warm bed snuggled up to the missus and those dumbass Yankees can go stew in their own warm bath salts.
This is really just basic common sense… it should be TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS — but then, that would require the teachers understand basic stuff like this, too… and they’re much too busy arranging scoreless gaming (EVERYONE gets a trophy for playing!! YAY!!) and meaningless achievement awards (Yes, you showed up for school three days this week!! Here’s a Blue Ribbon! YAY!).
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:05 pmComment by Steve57 — 11/14/2012 @ 1:20 pm
If you’re a company with 49 employees then in addition to justifying the salary for that 50th employee now you have to justify the $60k fine you’re going to get hit with (note to Tillie; that’s 30×2000).
Say bye bye to job creation.
No, it’s not bye-bye, but it does create “phase transitions.”
Lik the way you need to add a lot of heat energy to raise the temperature of water above 32 degrees F and above 212 F
Now if companies are not quite sure where they are, not so much, or perhaps they’ll try to stay 5 workers or 10 workers away from the boundary, when going up.
Sammy Finkelman (b7434f) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:13 pmDude, do you have any idea how cutthroat pizza is? People don’t want to pay SH** for pizza. Most of them don’t even appreciate the freaking driver, why should PJ’s?
The drivers (for almost all pizza places, really) get screwed as it is, the money they make doesn’t really pay for wear and tear on their vehicles, the pizza places usually use drivers for inside help because in most places the drivers get “waitron” wages rather than minwage, despite the fact that they aren’t making tips when working inside.
Oh, and if you lose your job from getting tickets? Nope, no unemployment for you.
Yeah, that’s a sweet fucking deal.
I have college age friends who’ve delivered. The average tip is like $2.50 — despite the round trip being a full gallon of gas or more. And many people don’t pay any attention to the time of day (i.e., rush hour), the distance, the weather, how many flights of stairs you had to climb — any of that when tipping.
I’ve looked at the numbers — I don’t believe anyone is anything but a complete sucker when it comes to delivering pizzas as a job. All you’re doing is trading the value of your vehicle as an asset for cash, at very poor rates.
Sure, the driving you’re doing is “tax deductable”, and the IRS provides decent mileage. Ah-huh. Like you’re making enough to “itemize deductions”… Pull the other one.
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:17 pmOh, and, BTW — NO ONE delivering pizzas is working full time. Even the people that are good at it are consistently kept below full time.
IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States (8e2a3d) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:20 pmIn other words, companies that would add that fiftieth and fifty first and fifty second employee simply because the company was growing will resist doing so because of government penalties.
So yes, say bye bye to those jobs.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:32 pmOkay, so I haven’t read all the comments and I know that I’m definitely not the legal expert or knowing on this one, but I see this as Christie upholding the law, not economics. Though, I am a Christie fan big time, he does have things he needs to work on, IMO. I still would love to see him run in 2016, even if he isn’t as much of a conservative as I am, he’d bust up a lot of the crap, IMO.
G (bbda88) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:38 pmThey will be phase transitioned out of a job.
JD (185efa) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:39 pmWhat’s unfair about it? The market price is the fair price.
Then what’s the point? Where’s the incentive to hoard supplies in anticipation of a shortage, or to bring supplies in during a shortage, if you can’t profit by it? And that’s quite beside the moral question, which is what the h*** gives you the right to tell someone else how much they may charge for their goods or labour?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:40 pmThe question is why? It’s a very bad and destructive law, so why doesn’t he just ignore it?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:43 pmIn a word, the law’s an Ass!
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/14/2012 @ 3:44 pmHe’s got discretion and he certainly doesn’t need to showboat on something that’s wrong.
He would accomplish exactly as much as Mitt Romney is accomplishing, because he would lose.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:02 pmOh, no doubt it is a very bad and destructive law. I agree wholeheartedly. I think the main problem is the general public’s naive view on what “price gouging” is exactly.
G (bbda88) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:10 pm174 is for 170.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:32 pmWow! I am WAY ahead of you on Christie. I have always KNOWN he was a RINO JERK and couldn’t be trusted.
Christie is everything Romney wanted to be but less electable. You KNOW the GOP is gonna try and stick the country with this clown in 2016.
Let’s line up the next DESIGNATED LOSER!
WarEagle82 (97b777) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:48 pmHi Milhouse, thanks for taking the time to respond to my comment.
I argued:
The idea that allowing prices to skyrocket would magically lead to “gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones” is not hard-nosed economics, but wishful thinking. Temporary price rises are not going to get disrupted distribution systems back on line any faster.
You responded:
“Red herring. Who said anything about getting the system back on line faster?”
It is not a red herring. It is part of Paul’s argument. Fourth paragraph of the quoted text.
You argue that “it would have brought parts of it back sooner, as people worked hard to be the first back on line and able to take advantage of crisis prices before everyone else came on line and drove the price down.”
How much faster? What evidence do you have for this expectation? Do you think people were slacking off because they couldn’t get a higher price for their gas? I doubt this is true.
Later you add: “What’s unfair about it? The market price is the fair price.”
Where from this moral pronouncement? Or are you just playing with words, punning on regulations’ identification of fair value with market prices?
You are being too extreme in trying to reduce morality to market economics.
Erik (5ee643) — 11/14/2012 @ 4:49 pm== You KNOW the GOP is gonna try and stick the country with this clown in 2016==
Prolly not anymore, War Eagle. You may be over thinking this. But if C.C. wants to move to my state and run for governor I’d be thrilled to have him.
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:02 pmErik, in my opinion, some will definitely try harder to get goods to places where it’s much more profitable. A truck full of fuel might be diverted an additional 100 miles if it’s going to mean $10,000 in profit.
This is hypothetical, so proof is hard to come by, but this seems like a safe view.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:04 pmNo, it isn’t. You are either illiterate or dishonest, and I’m betting on the latter.
So you expose yourself as an idiot who understands nothing about economics, which is to say human behaviour. People work if it’s worth their while, and not if it isn’t.
What regulations? What possible meaning can “a fair price” have except that at which there are willing buyers and willing sellers? What else can make a price fair? What gives anything value except that? Or are you some dumb Marxist who believes in the “Labour theory of value”?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:09 pmAsking obvious questions again, Milhouse?
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:14 pmMilhouse. So in the end all you have are insults.
Erik (164be3) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:17 pmErik, they match up to your strawman arguments.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:21 pmI agree with Erik. Government knows better than the market, and does a better job delivering goods in a crisis.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:21 pmJD, amusingly I’m currently reading a detailed history of the post WWII years in Britain with severe rationing and housing shortages.
All caused by the sweeping socialist programs of the Labor government that the British foolishly elected in the summer of 1945.
SPQR (768505) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:24 pmLeftists are anti-science and anti-history, SPQR.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:27 pmNo, I’ve got truth and logic. What have you got? You can start by explaining or withdrawing your claim that “It is not a red herring. It is part of Paul’s argument. Fourth paragraph of the quoted text.”
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:28 pmJd
That is not a fair response to ehat I wrote. I am usins
G my phone and I suck at this keyboards xo I will be brief.
Do you recognise no limits on markets and thus price? Is the invsible hand now to be our moral compass?
None of you have done other than express a magical faith in market price.
Erik (164be3) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:29 pmJd
That is not a fair response to ehat I wrote. I am usins
G my phone and I suck at this keyboards xo I will be brief.
Do you recognise no limits on markets and thus price? Is the invsible hand now to be our moral compass?
None of you have done other than express a magical faith in market price.
Erik (164be3) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:30 pm==I have always KNOWN he was a RINO JERK==
Oh, and other thing–I think it’s time to permanently retire the RINO pejorative. People who care about the future of this country need to say what they really mean with more clarity and less venom. Go ahead and perhaps label Christie and/or Romney and/or Guiliani and/or McCain a CINO or something similar if it makes you feel better since they don’t think exactly as you do. But all these guys and many others are most definitely Republicans in much more than name. They are part and parcel of the Republican big tent and I for one am glad they are. To suggest there is no difference between them and progressive democrats in any governmental capacity is both wrong and silly. Conservatives (and I consider myself one) are a large and important part of the Republican party but not THE Republican party. Just a little something to keep in mind.
elissa (6d3300) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:30 pmI trust a buyer and a seller to arrive at a fair price more than govt dictating it.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:35 pmI trust a buyer and a seller to arrive at a fair price more than govt dictating it.
JD (318f81) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:36 pmWhatever dip in the supply caused by damage at any area refineries would have gone first to the areas where the demand was highest. That is, where people were forming six hour miles-long lines. That is, if the prices are allowed to reflect that demand.
And, yeah, higher prices would have gotten those refineries back on line faster. If they had to put on extra workers or extra shifts to fix any damage at those refineries that costs extra money.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:40 pmWhatever dip in the supply caused by damage at any area refineries would have gone first to the areas where the demand was highest. That is, where people were forming six hour miles-long lines. That is, if the prices are allowed to reflect that demand.
And, yeah, higher prices would have gotten those refineries back on line faster. If they had to put on extra workers or extra shifts to fix any damage at those refineries that costs extra money.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:40 pmThat’s the wrong way to put it. It’s not that buyers and sellers “arrive at” a fair price, the way a government or a panel of “experts” might attempt to do. Rather, the definition of anything’s value is what people are willing to buy and sell it for, in other words the market price. What other definition could there be?
That’s why I asked whether Erik was a Marxist. Marxists and some other mystics believe that things have inherent value, bestowed upon them by things such as the labour that went into making them, so it would be at least theoretically possible for the market to get a price wrong.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 5:49 pmMilhouse, the Marxists in the USSR worked long and hard to come up with a replacement for price that would be an efficient indicator for demand. This was to address the wild imbalances in their industries. Factories always had too much of one raw material, which could end up rotting as they waited for another raw material they had too little of.
They never found a suitable replacement, which is why there isn’t a USSR anymore.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:04 pm“what the h*** gives you the right to tell someone else how much they may charge for their goods or labour?”
Having more guns than the people you’re ordering around is what gives you the right.
At least that’s true when you’re talking about armed robbers and governments (but, I repeat myself).
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:14 pmMore people who don’t understand how an economy works.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/hostess-closes-st-louis-plant/article_a27e262c-ee54-5bf1-9f18-5c6c4c187f15.html
Naturally the idiots who went on strike anyway after Hostess told them they’d close plants if they did are royally P.O.’d.
They think this is a game. They have to be Obama voters, who will all be royally P.O.’d when they also get what they voted for.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:26 pmNot everyone can afford to eat prime rib and lobster, drive a Mercedes, buy a yacht either. Does that mean that we should institute laws that prevent that inequity from happening too? All that anti-gouging laws do is to make sure that everybody suffers equally.
If an enterprising person takes the risks of investing in goods that people in disaster areas need and are willing to pay for, should the government step in and prohibit it because it is not fair to those that can’t afford it? Well life is not fair! Also, when help does arrive from the govt. and other charitable services, those goods will go further in providing to those that are more truly in need.
I am so sick of hearing the cry, “It’s not fair”. Well tell me this, just who gets to decide what fair is? Was it fair that in the USSR, the govt set the price of bread? Then the people would stand in line all day to buy bread at the govt set price only to find that those furthest down the line were SOL when the bread ran out. Or toilet paper, or all of the other things that the govt price controlled.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:32 pmWhile we can and do legislate morality, you cannot legislate fairness without it being unfair to somebody.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:35 pm____________________________________________
To suggest there is no difference between them and progressive democrats in any governmental capacity is both wrong and silly. Conservatives (and I consider myself one) are a large and important part of the Republican party but not THE Republican party.
Anyone who is aware of how pervasive and pernicious left-leaning biases are in the human species, in all societies, in all races/ethnicities/religions, should understand what you’re saying and pretty much agree. The foolishness, naivete and dishonesty of liberalism are regrettable, and the contrary nature of it is quite disturbing (ie, leftist sentiments being just the opposite of that which is humane and generous, or leading to situations that are just the opposite of what’s intended). But it has to be fully understood in order to figure out why things move in a certain direction.
I was talking to a couple in their early 30s right after the election. The wife and husband are both generally moderate, sort of independent in politics and party preferences. They’re currently struggling to make ends meet, one in a rather mediocre job, the other one stuck in a 9-to-5 that’s not much better.
What astounded me is how when I mentioned to them that they’re going to see the bite of income taxes increase by around $700 next year, due to Obamacare — and the two of them already just scrapping by on a monthly basis — they sort of shrugged it off and said, “well, if it helps others with their healthcare, it’s a good cause.”
I found myself retorting, “Yep, the cause of the IRS and all its well-paid bureaucrats.”
Again, the folks I was talking with are not staunch, rock-ribbed Democrat-Party-type people. So if they’re vulnerable to liberal biases knocking out their common sense, imagine how much worse the hard-core “progressives” will think and react.
And that’s why this society and so many others throughout the world can totter and tumble.
Mark (5bf7b1) — 11/14/2012 @ 6:53 pmAnyone who is aware of how pervasive and pernicious left-leaning biases are in the human species, in all societies, in all races/ethnicities/religions,
Anybody who says that is a demented idiot. Thanks for visiting, Mark.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:00 pmAnd please take your lines with you.
nk (875f57) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:01 pm____________________________________________
Naturally the idiots who went on strike anyway after Hostess told them they’d close plants if they did are royally P.O.’d.
And if you ever wonder how bad, how extreme, how idiotic a situation has to become before people cry “uncle” — or how they’ll refuse to voice alarm, no matter what — just keep in mind the specter of some of the most dysfunctional, broken-down cities in America (eg, Detroit, St Louis or large parts of LA) and societies throughout the world (eg, Argentina or Greece) remaining addicted (like junkies) to the lunacy of liberalism run amok.
Or to evoke another metaphor, such people (and their mindless liberalism) are suffering from the battered-wife syndrome.
Mark (5bf7b1) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:03 pm____________________________________________
Naturally the idiots who went on strike anyway after Hostess told them they’d close plants if they did are royally P.O.’d.
And if you ever wonder how bad, how extreme, how idiotic a situation has to become before people cry “uncle” — or how they’ll refuse to voice alarm, no matter what — just keep in mind the specter of some of the most dysfunctional, broken-down cities in America (eg, Detroit, St Louis or large parts of LA) and societies throughout the world (eg, Argentina or Greece) remaining addicted (like junkies) to the lunacy of liberalism run amok.
Or to evoke another metaphor, such people (and their mindless liberalism) are suffering from the battered-wife syndrome.
Mark (5bf7b1) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:03 pmThomas Sowell said that the first law of economics is that there is an infinite number of desires chasing a finite number of goods and services. The first law of politics is to ignore the first law of economics.
The Sanity Inspector (93bc4f) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:22 pmThere was always the black market. Where do you think all the bread really went? The line didn’t run out because everything that was baked had been sold; it ran out because most of what was baked was sold out the back door and never made it to the line.
My grandfather ran a virtual knitwear “factory” in the 1930s: there was no physical factory, the workers had machines at home, were given yarn, and turned in the finished goods. The goods were officially sold to a store, at the approved wholesale price, which was withdrawn from the store’s bank account and deposited into the factory’s. The store declared that it had sold the entire lot at the official retail price, and deposited the appropriate amount in its account. The workers were all paid the official salary, which was deposited in their accounts. But the goods never actually made it to the store; they were sold on the black market, and after the appropriate amounts had been deposited in all the right accounts, and the books balanced, the proceeds were split between all concerned. That’s how they all survived, when the official salary was 300 rubles a month and the black-market price of bread was 100 rubles a loaf.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 7:57 pmRINO is simply a criticism with an element of humor, Elissa. We realize that Romney and his supporter Meghan Mccain are literally real Republicans.
Lindsey Graham and Arlen Specter and Charlie Crist are or where real Republicans too.
RINO is a way for principled activists to note they do not think these people are sincerely on board with our movement. It’s a way for us to express that we think we’re being conned.
For example, one of the primary candidates ran well to the right of all the other candidates on immigration, in a way that contradicted his own repeated hiring of cheap illegal alien law care. Some at the time thought this would make him difficult to elect if we were foolish enough to nominate him, as he alienated both sides in that desperate yet sophisticated dance of the moderate Republican.
I guess we’ll have to tune in election night to see if that’s so.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 8:43 pmDustin – Can you please define what you mean by “principled activist” and who is in or out of “our” movement. Thanks.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:05 pmDustin – Can you please define what you mean by “principled activist” and who is in or out of “our” movement. Thanks.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:05 pmNo, Dustin, RINOS are not Republicans in anything but name. Now the label is more widely applied than perhaps it should be, but when someone’s values are those of a Democrat, and in a pinch he often votes like a Democrat, then the fact that he runs in R primaries because it’s an easier path to election doesn’t make him a Republican. Nor does voting the R line when it doesn’t matter, just to keep the party bosses happy.
Of course the ultimate RINO is Bloomberg, who isn’t even that; he makes hardly any secret of being a Democrat who ran as a R only to avoid crowded primaries on the D side.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:29 pmSomeone who is motivated by principles (rather than what is popular, legal, or of self interest) to actively promote X. X in my case is fiscal conservatism and my opinions of civil rights.
I said “sincerely” on board, Daleyrocks.
Being in or out of the Republican movement isn’t something I get to define, obviously. As I said to Elissa, of course RINOs are in the Republican party. Barack Obama could be in the Republican party tomorrow if he wanted to be. Any individual can decide they want to be in the tent. One of the more frustrating aspects of 2012 is that so many conservatives have excluded themselves from the tent out of frustration with the party’s missteps. They are harming their own cause, and they are part of the reason Obama managed to win despite losing a ton of support.
You’re welcome.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 9:41 pmBut in name, they are Republicans. That’s the semantics. Elissa is correct. I do not get to expel Meghan Mccain or Mayor Bloomberg from the GOP even if I think they have staked out a position cynically (who would syndicate Ms Mccain if she wasn’t ragging on ‘her own side’)?
I think we’re over estimating the value of being “republican”, unfortunately. The brand is not all that great.
But your view has a lot of truth to it.
Anyhow, how big is this tent, exactly, with RINOs leading the way? I don’t think it’s actually big enough to win presidential elections. I don’t think every vote is directed ideologically. I think some are simply aimed at the leader who inspires. And nothing inspires less than being a windsock.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:05 pmAnd that inspiration point is really huge. I wish I had the skill to convey this adequately.
We needed a leader who rose to the times we’re in and urgently convinced Americans how conservatism will make their lives better. Shake them out of their stupor and dependency on government and show them that relying on this trillion dollar deficit beast is foolish.
Alarm them about our reality, and then show them the path to prosperity.
I don’t think it’s Romney’s fault he wasn’t up to that task. He ran with 100% effort as the moderate electable guy we as a party nominated. I just think we made the wrong choice.
Newt maybe could have pulled this off, but his sincerity would be in question. Perry wouldn’t have a chance. He could point to his record and hope people got the point about Texan policies, I guess. Like they would even be enacted in Washington…
I think we have a chance of seeing the leader we need in 2016. And when we do, he’s going to scare the bajeesus out of Meghan Mccain, who will tell us he’s obviously unqualified and insensitive to poor people and all that crap, preferring instead the establishment candidate. There is a conflict of interest for principled conservatives who have careers in government.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:26 pmI know the question wasn’t directed at me, but Colin Powell is definitely out. Anyone who can endorse Obama twice and who pals around like this with Farrakhan is out.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/14/2012 @ 10:51 pmToo many rinos have no backbone. When the going gets tough, the rino turns to mush. Conservatives have been left all alone. The republican party will have a hard time recruiting past conservatives to commit to stupid ideas. The rinos can have the republicans ,as they are severely damaged goods. 2016-if you like rinos, there are plenty of turds to choose from.
mg (31009b) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:07 amWhen the rinos ok amnesty, it will be the last time the house will be held by republicans. Amnesty=100% control by dems.
mg (31009b) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:17 amBack to the topic:
Walter Williams: Posturing on ‘price gouging’
Need I let Krugman say more to reveal Krugman’s bottomless pit of ignorance? Well, if you need to read more of Krugman expounding upon his bottomless pit of ignorance, it’s at the link.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:46 am“And when we do, he’s going to scare the bajeesus out of Meghan Mccain, who will tell us he’s obviously unqualified and insensitive to poor people and all that crap, preferring instead the establishment candidate.”
Dustin – I’m glad at least somebody such as yourself is paying attention to what Meggie Mac has to say. She might feel unloved otherwise.
I appreciate you confirming that “principled activist” has become a euphemism for anybody that agrees with me and as a result by inference everybody else is unprincipled. The message such language sends to me is that the tent is not big enough to support disagreement or different approaches to solving problems.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:47 amThomas Sowell penned an essay a couple of decades ago explaining that price gouging in disasters is just the market working to get resources to where they are most needed. He, Dr. Paul, and Patrick are quite correct on the economics.
Christie, however, is not Chairman of the Economics Department at Rutgers, he is Governor of the State of New Jersey and as such is tasked by his oath of office to enforce its laws, good or bad.
Would that the President of the United States took his own oath as seriously and didn’t pick and choose which laws he will enforce and obey.
Estragon (13e813) — 11/15/2012 @ 1:30 amNot that it really matters, I guess, when people seem intent on moving the goal line and missing the point, but the “RINO” McCain to whom I was referring in my initial comment was former GOP presidential candidate John McCain who was, and is, regularly labeled a RINO in these pages. I thought that was pretty obvious within the company that I listed– not his wacky and wholly inconsequential daughter. If you want to include every loony who has ever worn an R jacket (even if it was stolen or a knock-off) then I suppose some of us might call such people as Walsh, Akin or Christine O’Donnell RINOs too. But that’s a different RINO discussion for a different day.
==Go ahead and perhaps label Christie and/or Romney and/or Guiliani and/or McCain a CINO or something similar if it makes you feel better since they don’t think exactly as you do. But all these guys and many others are most definitely Republicans in much more than name.==
elissa (2aea2a) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:39 amEstragon, based on his rhetoric Christie isn’t just enforcing the law — he believes in it.
Icy (d470c7) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:57 amNo, elissa, RINO is more properly those that go along with Democratic strategems, without consideration of the consequence, anyone involved in the RGGI, which was the framework for the carbon trading scam, is likely a part of this.
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/15/2012 @ 6:02 amIt was. But I like Meghan Mccain as an example. She gushed about Romney and emotionally bashed his more qualified and principled competitors because they didn’t have the same on stage pizzazz.
It is not about ideological purity for me. It’s about sincerity and leadership. At least if we want to discuss why Obama has another term of office.
No doubt.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/15/2012 @ 6:34 amAnd the reason for that is that they only promise conservative policies in order to get nominated or elected. If those policies threaten their standing in the polls, they immediately compromise them because they are a means to an end.
They are using us.
Romney is the best example of this I can come up with. He could not possibly rise to the occasion of a presidential election, especially in our difficult times, because he is not a leader, he is a follower. Every flip flop was Romney following the press and the polls.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/15/2012 @ 6:37 amI admire McCain’s long service, but honestly the way he capitulated in the last campaign, he not
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/15/2012 @ 6:38 amSchmidt and Wallace, had the final word, and they
way they spread those lies about the only fighter in that campaign, really is dissapointing.
Narciso,
It’s telling how the polls reacted to Palin in 2008.
We could have won that election. After Mccain went to DC and his campaign started scapegoating the only fighter in that campaign, as you call her, indeed it was a lost cause.
Americans are thirsty for an honest and bold leader who will take the flack if he or she needs to. I don’t really think we had such an option in the primary. I preferred the guy with the best record and qualifications, but he wasn’t inspiring.
I would happily call John Mccain a RINO. I find some of his positions to be contrary to basic American freedoms, such as free speech. But the joke’s on me. John Mccain is an exemplar of the Republican party. it’s the principled conservatives who are out of place.
Dustin (73fead) — 11/15/2012 @ 6:57 amAnd we know what happened afterwards, it’s ironic that two of the facilitators of that smear campaign,
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/15/2012 @ 7:04 amwere signed up by Romney, yet they ddn’t deign to apply the lesson to themselves.
Rubbish. He has the discretion, especially in an emergency, not to enforce a bad law.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/15/2012 @ 7:07 amThere’s that. But what does it for me is his instinctive love of government and hostility to enterprise. He believes that government people act for the public good and private people act against it. He wants to improve government by making it adhere closer to that ideal and disciplining those public servants who stray from it, but he doesn’t want to get it out of the way.
This attitude was exposed in a Reason article back in the late ’90s, but it was most blatantly on display in his disdain for Romney’s achievements in business, and his contrasting that with his own life spent entirely on the taxpayer’s payroll. He’s a prime example of why I believe anyone who makes his living from the taxpayer should not be allowed to vote, let alone to govern. Even if his service was exemplary (and I’m not convinced of that view) he has never in his life created a single dollar’s worth of value, while Romney has created billions, and yet he thought he could look down his nose at Romney, as if what he did was noble and what Romney did was crass.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/15/2012 @ 7:23 amNo need for the artifice now;
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-15/jobless-claims-jumped-last-week-as-sandy-damaged-u-s-job-market.html
narciso (ee31f1) — 11/15/2012 @ 7:25 amAnd in even better news, Hostess, which is already in bankruptcy, might have to shut down operations and close its doors as a result of — wait for it — a union strike. No biggie, though; they only employ 18,000 people.
Icy (b574af) — 11/15/2012 @ 8:02 amAnd in even better news, Hostess, which is already in bankruptcy, might have to shut down operations and close its doors as a result of — wait for it — a union strike. No biggie, though; they only employ 18,000 people.
Icy (b574af) — 11/15/2012 @ 8:03 amComment by Dustin — 11/15/2012 @ 6:37 am
He could not possibly rise to the occasion of a presidential election, especially in our difficult times, because he is not a leader, he is a follower. Every flip flop was Romney following the press and the polls.
The real problem is he is not a thinker – at all.
The flip flops are campaign dishonesty – but also indicative of following the advice of his campaign advisers. His whole campaign strategy came from other people – professionals, with no values, really.
And he still doesn’t understand why he lost.
He’s back to the ideas in his comments in the 47% meeting. He thinks Obama made promises to people.. Actually, Obama scared people about the consequences of a Romney victory, sometimes with quite false claims, like that it might lead to the outlawing of abortion, which, to people who think they might to have something to do personally with an abortion, themselves or a family member, is quite scary. And even the student loan forgiveness was a quite weak promise.
People were scared they might be deprived of the right to vote, or that Republicans were trying to make it difficult to vote, and turned out in droves to vote in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and I think Wisconsin.
People were scared that the temporary permission to stay in the United States for people brought here as children might not be extended, and their friends and family members and co-workers and acquaintances and fellow students, and romantic interests and fellow church members might get deported, and they turned out to vote in large numbers for Obama.
Others were scared that the law might be changed to make it more difficult to bring over family members, or that the lottery, a hope for some, might be abolished.
People were scared that Romney might reinstitute whatever Bush policies supposedly had created the recession. (Obama never was clear about just how Bush had created the recession, and Romney, being completely ignorant of economics, never challenged that trope, at least to say he would not repeat Mistake A or Mistake B. I think basically actually Obama was claiming the Bush tax cuts had caused the recession, but for people alittle bit more sophisticated it was practices made illegal by Dodd Frank)
People were scared that the next time, Romney might just let American auto companies go out of business. Or they’d lose their jobs to free trade. Or that he’d destroy Medicare and maybe Social Security. Or that he wouldn’t help out people whom Barack Obama would help. Not help because he didn’t want to raise taxes on the rich.
Maybe not send aid in a disaster even, as is now expected.
Or that he’d let the greenhouse effect get worse, and we’d get more hurricanes and tornadoes and floods and rain and snow and the sea would continue to rise.
It is fear of loss of what they expected or already had or were getting, not promises of something new, that drove people to Obama.
Sammy Finkelman (b7434f) — 11/15/2012 @ 8:24 amPatterico needs to have a butt hurt measuring thread so we can declare a winner.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/15/2012 @ 8:35 amPatterico needs to have a butt hurt measuring thread so we can declare a winner.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/15/2012 @ 8:36 amA smart parasite doesn’t kill its host.
Unfortunately as a nation we are not blessed with smart parasites, as the the results of the last election demonstrate.
In addition to ObamaCare, necessarily skyrocketing electricity costs, etc., just wait and see what happens when Obama’s NLRB unilaterally imposes “card check” with it’s binding arbitration.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/15/2012 @ 11:39 amDid I call it, or did I call it?
Reward: Obama NLRB looks to give workers’ private contact info to unions
Soon jobs will be just a memory. Like they will be at Hostess.
I hope everyone who voted for Obama likes what they’re getting.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:06 pmDid I call it, or did I call it?
Reward: Obama NLRB looks to give workers’ private contact info to unions
Soon jobs will be just a memory. Like they will be at Hostess.
I hope everyone who voted for Obama likes what they’re getting.
Steve57 (7a880e) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:07 pmMost of them probably do like this news. They’re thugs and they applaud thuggery.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:24 pm166. Comment by IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in all 57 States — 11/14/2012 @ 3:05 pm
Sammy, you don’t get the purpose of the increased prices.
The price mechanism in capitalism is a SIGNAL to the MARKET.
It does two things:
1) It tells the consumer to lay the eph off.
2) It tells the provider “HEY!! Divert some supply over here, man!!”
Your proposition does allow for “1″ but fails part “2″.
My proposition – that they be allowed or encouraged to charge more but devote the money to storm relief – is for a situation where the shortage is going to end pretty soon anyway, but the problem is the next couple of days.
In my proposal, you have rationing by waiting time but some supply could also be available at a higher price.
One problem with higher prices is that some people will charge too high a price and not sell anything.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/15/2012 @ 12:54 pmSo where’s the incentive to bring in supplies during the shortage, or to work harder to end the shortage quicker, or to prepare in advance for the shortage? You write as if shortages just happen at random, can’t be anticipated, prepared for, forestalled, shortened, or mitigated.
Surely that’s their problem. If they find they struck their price too high, they’ll quickly lower it or lose out. Sales volume is one of the crucial bits of information necessary in order to determine the correct price for anything, and only the seller has that information.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/15/2012 @ 1:11 pmSo SF, you’re for capitalism as long as the derived profit (resource) is used for a Governmentally Approved cause?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/15/2012 @ 1:20 pmThe problem is that the government is not putting any skin in the game. BTW, what happens if that proprietor just decided to close up shop, and wait out the crisis?
His customers would not get their needs met (at least from him) and the government would not be able to attach his “excess revenues” for some social purpose.
Oh, wait, isn’t that the definition of Going Galt?
There is no such thing as Too High a price – prices fluctuate to meet, or in response to, market demand.
If I post a price of $10/gl, and nobody is buying, I’ll probably be out at the sign changing it to $9.75 to see what the response is to that.
It’s just like having your realtor ask for $6MM for your house, and you don’t get any offers/inquiries, so you drop the price.
Conversely, if you ask $10/gl and there immediately develops a huge line, your price is too low and you have to raise it – IMMEDIATELY!
The same thing happens with that $6MM house: if there’s a lot of activity, the hope-to-be buyers will start bidding against each other.
Milhouse, the Central-Planning bureaucracy just hates it when that mysterious “market” refuses to march to their drummer.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/15/2012 @ 1:28 pmThey have the demonstration of 70-years of central-planning in the CCCP to guide them, and they still think they can make it work. It didn’t work there with the prospect of the Gulag for the non-compliers, why would they think it would work in a country famous for telling The Government Man to go fly-a-kite, sometimes in less-than-polite language and action?
“My proposition – that they be allowed or encouraged to charge more but devote the money to storm relief – is for a situation where the shortage is going to end pretty soon anyway”
Sammy – Your proposition is actually directly analogous to what liberals fail to understand about the impact of continually raising marginal tax rates on tax revenues. The incentive for people to worker harder when the government is grabbing an ever larger percentage of your income diminishes and with the static modeling the CBO uses, projected tax revenues from tax increases seldom matches reality absent a booming economy.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/15/2012 @ 1:41 pmHow about that. RINOs are offended by the term “RINO.”
Destroying the constitution and burying the country in debt don’t bother them. But calling them “RINOs” is just unacceptable.
Go figure…
WarEagle82 (97b777) — 11/15/2012 @ 3:45 pmSome people would complain if you hung them with a new rope.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/15/2012 @ 3:48 pmExclusive Audio from ABC: Everything Romney said to donors about his loss. http://abcn.ws/Wa500g
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/15/2012 @ 4:22 pmShut up at least once, Sammy.
BTW, Ron Paul is OB/GYN. Has anybody asked how many forceps has he stuck in baby’s head?
nk (875f57) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:18 pm*babies’ heads”
nk (875f57) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:21 pmOne problem with higher prices is that some people will charge too high a price and not sell anything.
Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 11/15/2012 @ 12:54 pm
That’s called the free market at work, dillweed.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:29 pmWhat makes you assume he’s done any? He’s a principled man; on what basis do you dare accuse him of such a thing?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 11/15/2012 @ 5:30 pmThank you for any other informative website. The place else may I am getting that kind of information written in such an ideal approach? I have a project that I am simply now running on, and I have been at the look out for such information.
ice (22f97a) — 11/16/2012 @ 9:34 amIt is my understanding that RP only performs “partial birth abortions” when a DNA-sequencing shows the fetus has a propensity to become a lawyer (Heh!).
askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/16/2012 @ 9:39 amRomney to donors:
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/16/2012 @ 10:50 amRomney is even worse than Susan Rice!
But I knew that.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/16/2012 @ 10:51 am