Patterico's Pontifications

8/5/2012

Report: Seven Dead in Milwaukee in Shooting at Sikh Temple

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:53 pm



Little seems to be known right now:

At least seven people have been killed after at least one gunman attacked a Sikh temple on the south side of Milwaukee on Sunday morning, police said.

Reports of multiple shooters have not been confirmed. Police say they shot and killed a gunman and that an officer had been shot several times in return; the officer, a 20-year veteran, was expected to live.

The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports that police have no found evidence of a second shooter, yet continue to ask media not to broadcast images of their tactical units at the scene. A federal law enforcement official told the Los Angeles Times earlier Sunday morning that police were originally looking for two white shooters with large builds.

Speculation is pointless right now.

130 Responses to “Report: Seven Dead in Milwaukee in Shooting at Sikh Temple”

  1. Waiting for Brian Ross to breathlessly report that he once saw a large white guy at a Tea Party rally.

    Old Coot (2c07a8)

  2. manufactured terror alert .

    Complicit Controlled Media …

    total blackout on details to public

    nader paul kucinich gravel mckinney baldwin ventura sheehan perot carter (7ef01a)

  3. Old Coot…you beat me to that one by just a few minutes!

    RB (5d7f7b)

  4. has anyone seen Bob Beckel or Sen. Jon Tester on any Sunday news show? They should prove they were not in Milwaukee.

    Release teh hounds!

    Colonel Haiku (637755)

  5. Colonel Haiku,

    Bob Beckel’s only potential allibi regarding his whereabouts is that he paid for today’s escort with a personal check.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  6. On the contrary, now is the best time for speculation, before facts get in the way and prevent speculation entirely.

    Daryl Herbert (6317a3)

  7. Speculation is pointless right now.

    And yet it will occur regardless.

    I predict the media will speculate thus:
    Clearly, we need more gun control.

    Smock Puppet, Like... Duh? (8e2a3d)

  8. On the contrary, now is the best time for speculation, before facts get in the way and prevent speculation entirely.

    Silly person… As Rosie O’Donnell more than amply serves to demonstrate, there are people for whom mere facts will have no effect on speculation.

    Smock Puppet, Like... Duh? (8e2a3d)

  9. Speculation is pointless right now.

    http://www.soopermexican.com/2012/08/05/how-to-politicize-a-tragedy/

    Pious Agnostic (ee2c24)

  10. What do violent Teapublican haters have against Sikhs?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  11. Sikhs are frequently targets of mis-identification by bigots intending to attack Muslims or others, and it’s been happening at least since British colonial days; this may be another such occasion.

    But there are also those who have quarrels with the Sikhs, or some of them, that are not the result of mistaken identity, and this could also be one of those occasions.

    And then there are those who just want to see the world burn, and one “raghead” is as good as another.

    There aren’t any scenarios in which such violence is justified, but beyond that sort of bromide statement, it’s genuinely unproductive to speculate until more is known.

    Beldar (a2eca9)

  12. I ought to have written “for them, one ‘raghead’ is as good a starting place as another.” I’m imputing a viewpoint, hypothetically, to someone with whom I disagree. I would not want it thought that such is my own position.

    Beldar (a2eca9)

  13. 12. Not familiar with a Sikh temple in greater Milwaukee. Sikhism of course is a Punjabi religion of the Warrior caste attempting to reconcile Hinduism and Islam.

    Most of its problems worldwide are with either of the two. Milwaukee is the largest small town in Amerikkka, ethnic strife is generally present but at a low key.

    I’d be a little surprised if LA Times knew sh*t from shinola on this story being as they cannot find their azz with two hands.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  14. Speculation is pointless right now.

    I agree. But, that’s unnecessary; clearly this is the work of Chick-fil-A.

    Anon Y. Mous (8ec442)

  15. Gateway Pundit places it in Oak Creek a working class suburb to the south of the city.

    Fat white guy the perp. Bet it was business affair gone bad.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  16. Here is a link to Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporting which seems to be getting updated.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. My sources tell me that Brian Ross & Harry Reid did it.

    Ipso Fatso (1e3278)

  18. I never been to Milwaukee my whole life it’s not difficult to get mugged there is my understanding

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  19. Milwaukee is a city of approximately 10,000 neighborhoods.

    Not sure why anyone would want to visit, frankly.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  20. I spent a month in Milwaukee one weekend.

    SPQR (858ed6)

  21. Oak Creek is not Milwaukee, it’s Chicago. (It’s pretty far away from Milwaukee.) I’ve been there many times.

    nk (875f57)

  22. That is close to Racine, no?

    JD (fe70e3)

  23. Like the people in Colorado who were just watching a movie, and now these killed on a sunny Sunday morning at the temple– I think it’s knowing that they encountered unexpected and unspeakable horror while doing very safe and commonplace things that touches and scares the rest of us so much.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  24. Anon wrote:

    Speculation is pointless right now.

    I agree. But, that’s unnecessary; clearly this is the work of Chick-fil-A.

    What, you mean it isn’t George Bush’s fault?

    Actually, I blame James Madison!

    The speculative Dana (f68855)

  25. Comment by elissa — 8/5/2012 @ 4:36 pm

    In the movie Soul Surfer the central character makes a comment about it being “a morning just like any other” on the day she was attacked by a shark, lost an arm, and almost died. Later, as part of a volunteer team in Thailand after the tsunami one grieving widow (through translation) said essentially the same thing, that the morning of the tsunami seemed like a day just like any other.

    I was struck once by a strange juxtaposition, I had a patient with AIDS that I had expected to die for weeks who was still hanging in, and found that a nurse in the office expecting her first child had become pre-eclamptic, ruptured a brain aneurysm and died, leaving a young husband and a baby saved by emergency C-section. We have so many days that finish “like an ordinary day” that it becomes the expectation. But then living each day in a hyper-vigilant mode would be very destructive as well.

    Yes, after 911 it was normal to see bumper stickers and signs on cabs driven by Sikhs explaining who they were and more importantly who they weren’t. Had a long chat with a Sikh woman on an airplane once, but between her accent and it being years ago I don’t remember much, other than they were a religious minority who were interested in maintaining themselves and not bothering others too much.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  26. And whose religion requires them to always carry a knife.

    nk (875f57)

  27. Sikhs are frequently targets of mis-identification by bigots intending to attack Muslims or others, and it’s been happening at least since British colonial days; this may be another such occasion.

    Well, this certainly is not the case in the USA. Attacks on Muslims or Sikhs in the USA are in fact extremely rare.

    Better to see what has happened than to start calling this bigotry, racism and domestic terrorism. We simply don’t know what happened and there is no reason to start collecting pitchforks and torches…

    WarEagle82 (0bcfe5)

  28. I’m hearing the bald-ish 30-soemthing was wearing a white t-shirt, black pants, and sporting a 9/11 tatoo, which seems to account for some of the “hate-crime” or domestic terrorism suspicion.

    Me, I think its another schizophrenic.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  29. I think it was all arranged by Adam Smith, to get us to talk about something else.

    The speculative Dana (f68855)

  30. Great point, Beldar.

    Dustin (73fead)

  31. I know an Indian doctor who won’t bring his Sikh parents to the U.S. because he’s afraid they might be mistakenly targeted. I don’t think it’s statistically likely but it’s clearly something he and his family worry about, perhaps especially because it’s unpredictable and random.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  32. Must be the Tea Party.

    Rodney King's Spirit (aeda60)

  33. I know an Indian doctor who won’t bring his Sikh parents to the U.S. because he’s afraid they might be targeted. I don’t think it’s likely but it’s something they worry about, perhaps especially because it’s unpredictable and random.
    Comment by DRJ — 8/5/2012 @ 6:56 pm

    The tremendous irony in this case is that the Indian Doctor’s Sikh parents are far more likely to be the target of anti-religious bigotry and terrorist attacks in India than in the USA.

    WarEagle82 (0bcfe5)

  34. My speculation is that it is a guy with psychological problems, alternatively someone with a specific beef with an one or two individuals at that temple – though huff post was quick to point to domestic terrorism.

    joe (93323e)

  35. “I don’t think it’s statistically likely but it’s clearly something he and his family worry about, perhaps especially because it’s unpredictable and random.”

    DRJ – Also discussed in my link to Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  36. we have some sikhs here in LA one time one of them – a frightfully old-looking one – threw an empty cigarette box on the ground and my friend J got out of the car picked it up and yelled at them that we don’t litter here in America

    I’m like this is NoHo not Agoura Hills it’s not like they’re befouling a pristine environment and she gave me a look like I didn’t get it

    we’re not friends anymore, which is a nice money-saver for me

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  37. Teabaggers are violent racists.

    JD (fe70e3)

  38. Sikhs are comprised of members of an upper caste in India. Even here they are commonly professionals, taller than average and routinely well-educated.

    Sure some newcomers drive taxi, but they’re probably an engineer finishing and advanced degree.

    They have more to fear from Muslims and other unassimilable groups than indigents.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  39. WarEagle82,

    My guess is the doctor and his parents know the places they should avoid in India, just as I know which places in my State aren’t as safe for me.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  40. Sikhs are comprised of members of an upper caste in India. Even here they are commonly professionals, taller than average and routinely well-educated.

    The character Khan in Star Trek (both the original episode and the second movie) played by Ricardo Montalban was supposed to be a Sikh.

    JVW (6311cc)

  41. Anti-Sikh Incidents in India and the USA…

    India, Two Selected Events Since 1984
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots
    http://www.nytimes.com/1987/07/09/world/anti-sikh-violence-in-northern-india.html

    USA, Since 2001
    http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-violent-anti-sikh-incidents-u-since-2001-011258005.html

    All these incidents are deplorable but some are quite clearly wider spread and more systematic than others…

    WarEagle82 (0bcfe5)

  42. “They have more to fear from Muslims and other unassimilable groups than indigents.”

    gary – Might could be somebody ate some bad cheese or a bad brat.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  43. WarEagle82,

    It could be true that it’s more dangerous for Sikhs to be in India than to be here in the U.S. I don’t know enough to say for sure, but that’s not the issue for this doctor nor was it my point. The issue is perception, not reality.

    I would feel safer in a familiar location — such as a town I’ve lived in for years — than I would feel in a foreign land in which I’ve never lived. I assume the Indian doctor and his parents feel the same way.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. Business Insider has an article up about a letter Congress recently sent to the Attorney General concerning hate crimes against Sikhs.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  45. Faulty perception of reality can get you killed.

    I have been around the world a couple of times. There are places I just don’t go. And when I am in certain places I am even more alert and careful to know what is going on around me.

    But random violence is always a threat these days. It is just a bigger threat in some places for some people.

    Still, it is their right not to come to America. Not arguing that…

    WarEagle82 (0bcfe5)

  46. Has the govt or MSM referred to Hassan as a case of domestic terrorism?

    It saeems to me they go out of their way to avoid saying “domestic terrorism” when it is, and “domestic terrorism” when it is a non-politically motivated mass murder.

    Even in the scenario where this fellow, crazed or not, thought he was shooting Muslims because they were Muslims, does that make this “domestic terrorism”?

    I thought “terrorism” was when someone committed violence in an attempt to intimidate the public and force a plan of action, such as the IRA, or anti-Israeli terrorism, or Bader-Meinhoff, or basque separatists, or Shining Path, etc. I thought mass murder was mass murder.
    I guess if someone thought they were committing mass murder of Muslims to tell the Muslims to leave the US that could be called “terrorism”, but even then I’m inclined not to call it terrorism unless they targeted (non-Muslim) US supporters as well.

    Columbine was terrorizing, but was not terrorism.

    I guess it’s more PC language wars New-speak propaganda.

    The point is it was a terrible thing, but not every mass murder is “terrorism” unless you want to blur the fact that some people want to kill you because you are an American.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  47. Well now that the FBI is involved we’re not likely to learn the truth anytime soon.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  48. The shooter’s landlady in Cudahy says he just broke up with his girlfriend and was upset. Police originally were looking for multiple shooters but now believe it’s only the one shooter who was killed on site by police. Looks like they may be backing off from the domestic terrorist angle although the choice of a Sikh temple as target is obviously troubling. I can see why the authorities might suspect that it was a hate crime and I’m sure a read of his computer tomorrow will enlighten.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  49. Business Insider has an article up about a letter Congress recently sent to the Attorney General concerning hate crimes against Sikhs.

    Yes, and every link or quote I could find to these “incidents” just repeats the following “The Washington-based Sikh Coalition has reported more than 700 incidents in the U.S. since 9/11.” That is less than 60 a year.

    Also, there is simply no definition of an “incident.” In NYC, you could probably count 700 incidents a day if you counted people giving the finger to cab drivers.

    A quick search of the website at http://www.sikhcoalition.org finds no mention of such incidents.

    But the Sikh Coalition is a victim’s advocacy group. And victims groups are often inclined to exaggerate and embellish if there isn’t a sufficient real threat. Just ask CAIR.

    Of course, Sikhs may have some legitimate concerns and perception matters a great deal. I don’t know if I would want to walk around in a Dastar the day after the next 9/11.

    WarEagle82 (0bcfe5)

  50. The letter from Congress back in April to which I referred was asking our illustrious Attorney General, the brilliant and handsome Eric Holder, to redo the reporting forms and process that documents crimes against American Sikhs. It was written on the basis that “incidents” were found not to have been reported at all, or were not reported correctly, or were being mixed up/buried with crimes against Muslims because of the turban thing. As of this morning there had been no change from the DOJ to either the form itself or the reporting process.

    It is especially generous of WarEagle82, I think, to grant that Sikhs may have some legitimate concerns considering that six of them were murdered today in their temple and two more are in critical condition.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  51. Growing up in England in the 60s we always said, when we saw someone wearing a turban, “Hope your head gets better…” It never got old. Course, today you would likely be arrested for such a thing, which is why I am extremely happy that I am now an American.

    Gazzer (770c7f)

  52. The Daily Mail reports the shooter was a white supremacist/skinhead, but at this point it sounds more like speculation than fact.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  53. In case anyone had forgotten, it has been only two weeks since the Aurora shootings.

    But these can’t possibly be connected.

    Can they?

    creeper (849351)

  54. maybe he saw that dark knight movie and said hey I should dye my hair it’s natural color and go kill people at a temple instead of a movie theater and not leave any booby traps anywheres

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  55. *its* natural color I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  56. creeper–unless one believes black ops crews from the government are locating people with mental illnesses or known proclivities and brain-gaming them to kill, I doubt the two recent shootings are connected. The thought that that might happen is too horrible to contemplate so I won’t go there. On the other hand the shootings do both fit the left’s urgent narrative and push for gun control. The thing is, if you had told me three years ago that the Fast and Furious gun running project could exist on our tax dollars, and be “overseen” by U.S. government agencies and our DOJ I wouldn’t have believed it either.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  57. if they’re connected at all it’s in how fascist geezers like frank lautenberg will try to use them, even as obama continues his obsessive complusive economy rape

    America America God shed his grace on thee

    or not

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  58. I don’t think it’s conspiracy, elissa, more copycats bouyied in part by the press coverage.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  59. I am constantly in awe, Mr feets, that he is able to fit in so much economy raping between golf games.

    elissa (eb8e22)

  60. he has halps elissa speaking of economy rape does anyone think it’s a coincidence that the never-gayer olympics are getting some of the most amazing ratings ever just as the number of people working continues to shrink and shrink?

    I think many of our food stamper and newly-disabled comrades are looking for winners to identify with

    but someday the olympics will be over won’t they

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  61. Satwant Singh Kaleka, president of the Sikh Temple, requested the meeting after the July 4 melee in Milwaukee’s Riverwest neighborhood, according to a news release from Zepnick’s office. Those incidents included the looting of at least one Sikh-owned business.

    Looting of businesses? I wouldn’t rule out Occupiers.

    vatar (ed75b5)

  62. My last PCP in WI, clinic in Wauwatosa, a DO, surname Singh, was a devout Sikh.

    Had no idea he was shaking in his boots while treating me.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  63. 9/11 truthers get tattoos. Just sayin’..

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  64. *everyone* in that “USA, Since 2001” article wareagle linked at 42 is a singh

    it’s a thingh

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  65. “creeper–unless one believes black ops crews from the government are locating people with mental illnesses or known proclivities and brain-gaming them to kill, I doubt the two recent shootings are connected.”

    elissa – Just think back to when government black ops teams blowed up the Deepwater Horizon rig and then President Renewable Fuels used it as an excuse to shut down new offshore drilling.

    Dots – Connect them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. The tremendous irony in this case is that the Indian Doctor’s Sikh parents are far more likely to be the target of anti-religious bigotry and terrorist attacks in India than in the USA.

    By whom?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  67. An ironic point: Sikhs are always armed for self-defense and defense of others, so this fellow shouldn’t have been able to shoot so many people, except for two things:

    1) 300 years ago, when the then-Guru instructed his followers to go armed, guns weren’t a very practical weapon for self-defense; a dagger was more effective than a one-shot pistol that would take minutes to reload, and that couldn’t be fired very accurately. And so to this day Sikhs fulfil this requirement with daggers rather than firearms.

    2) In the West, in deference to the weapon-phobia of officialdom, Sikhs carry tiny little daggers, pen-knives really, that aren’t much good in a knife fight, let alone a gunfight. Their function for defense of self and others has become purely symbolic.

    Imagine if these two factors were not in play. Even imagine if they were all carrying full-size useful daggers and swords. Now imagine if they were all carrying handguns. The outcome of this story would probably have been different. Or at least so it appears to me.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

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    khasiat tanaman dan buah (8f5d17)

  69. So the shooter was in psychological operations, was either never promoted or was busted in rake to a low level, and was given a “less-than-honorable” – whatever that means – discharge.

    I have to think he’s some flavor of nutbar; and no way did he mistake Sikhs for Muslims.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  70. MD in Philly asked:

    “Has the govt or MSM referred to Hassan as a case of domestic terrorism?”

    This is the case DHS is looking for to hang a terrorism label on the right wing, white supremacist, military, skinhead Tea Party Movement.

    The shooter’s name is Wade Michael Page.

    He is not in the military. Although he was in the Army from 1992 to 1996, he was discharged under less than honorable conditions. The “white supremacist” label was a made due to a 9.11 tattoo. He’s just another loser whose girlfriend dumped him.

    He came in through the kitchen, shot 4 men in the Temple and went outside, shooting two more in the parking lot as the police arrived. He got in a shootout with one cop and his partner dropped the gunman with a rifle. He did all the shooting with a 9 mm semiautomatic, probably a Glock 17 or similar handgun. It’s single action/ double action, with double stack 17 round magazines.

    One thing that surprised me was that no one charged this guy. Sikh men carry ceremonial daggers in their belts. A knife is just as deadly as a 9 mm. All a handgun gives you is space. Once you are within three feet, a knife is the better weapon. It’s quite, simple to use, won’t jam or run out of ammo.

    Arc (0baa7b)

  71. it’s a thingh

    It is indeed a thingh.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  72. Why would they even let a truther into the military in the first place? It’s a pretty big mental illness flag in my book.

    You’d think someone intelligent enough for an intel occupation would know what a Sikh was, but I wouldn’t count on that.

    I would like to know more about why he was discharged.

    Dustin (73fead)

  73. Although he was in the Army from 1992 to 1996

    If that’s the case, then he wasn’t a training washout like I initially thought I had heard.

    He was probably a monumental screwup who was reduced in rank and then discharged.

    One thing that surprised me was that no one charged this guy. Sikh men carry ceremonial daggers in their belts. A knife is just as deadly as a 9 mm.

    It doesn’t surprise me at all. Most people are not prepared to charge a gunman with a tiny knife. That takes significant mental preparation. A 9mm pistol is a vastly superior weapon to a knife (as this story seems to prove), in my opinion, and the attack is truly cowardly.

    Dustin (73fead)

  74. His years in the army preceded 9/11, Dustin, so trutherism wouldn’t have affected his service, though the usual underlying problems might. I’m thinking his mental or personality disorder problems or effects of same are part of the reason he was booted out despite some achievements. He got some medals and could jump out of a plane well enough.

    I read somewhere he sang in a neo-nazi band, and this accounts for some of the “radical view” assertions. I don’t know anything bout the band and whether it was one of those poser straight edge bands or ron-paulian or something else.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  75. Why did police hold back his name, and insist the press and others they interviewed about him also hold back his name? Very peculiar.
    Something has to account for it, but what?

    I feel silly for considering something like “SCRUB HIS WEB PRESENCE – THERE ISN”T ENOUGH TIME” or the like but I wonder what the unusual caution was about.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  76. Here is le band http://www.myspace.com/endapathyband ; not sure if he is the chunky guy with all the tattoos.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  77. May they, all seven, rest in peace. They are not political commentary. No more comments from me.

    nk (875f57)

  78. His years in the army preceded 9/11, Dustin, so trutherism wouldn’t have affected his service

    Yes, thank you. My mistake.

    . I’m thinking his mental or personality disorder problems or effects of same are part of the reason he was booted out despite some achievements.

    I think you’re right.

    Dustin (73fead)

  79. SarahW,

    I suspect they held back the name because they were concerned that once Sikhs knew the name, they would fly into a rage and attack anyone with an ethnically-similar name out of ignorance.

    At least, that’s often why they hold back the names of Arabic-sounding attackers, so I’m sure it’s something exactly like that.

    And, yes, sarcasm has been deployed again.

    Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b)

  80. Yes, WP is the chunky guy with all the tattoos, who holds the guitar and sings into the microphone.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  81. Unfortunate initials.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  82. http://uprisedirect.blogspot.com/2010/05/end-apathy-interview-2010.html

    WP is interviewed. In 2000, “get involved and wanted to basically start over. So I sold everything I owned except for my motorcycle and what I could fit into a backpack and went on [a] cross country trip visiting friends and attending festivals and shows.” Talks about discipline, staying the course, our sick society, and says the music is hardcore/punk/oi – inspired.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  83. Kinda “psy-ops”y: A lot of what I realized at the time was that if we could figure out how to end peoples apathetic ways it would be the start towards moving forward. Of course after that it requires discipline, strict discipline to stay the course in our sick society. So, in a sense it was view of psychology and sociology. But I didn’t want to just point the finger at what other people should do, but also I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back. And that is how I wrote the song “Self Destruct”.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  84. Interview says he was also in this http://uprisedirect.blogspot.com/2010/06/interview-with-scott-youngland.html

    white-power band, “Youngland”.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  85. _____________________________________________

    The “white supremacist” label was a made due to a 9.11 tattoo.

    I notice the meme that he was a racist or “skinhead” was being pointed to (and noted at the drudgereport.com) in at least one news report yesterday but seems to have been pushed to the side as of several hours ago.

    Of the 3 major mass murders over the past 2 years, 2 of the killers have backgrounds that tend to run contrary to, or flat-out contradict, what the MSM — or what media types like ABC’s Brian Ross tend to drool over — otherwise would love to promote, along with “we need gun control!!!”

    Six years after the video, Holmes was almost unrecognisable after dying his hair orange. His profile posted on the dating website Match.com was headlined “Will you visit me in prison?”

    “The first thing people usually notice about me is my soul penetrating eyes,” he wrote. “Learning is really great, knowledge is power as the famous Sir Bacon [sic] said.” Holmes also said he liked techno music, had “middle-of-the-road” political views, was agnostic, and “definitely” wanted children.

    ^ Holmes reportedly sympathizing with the bad guys in movies — not to mention his agnosticism — is the type of pro-subversive, upside-down mentality that is less “centrist” and more of left-leaning persuasion.

    Mark (70c729)

  86. ___________________________________________

    I read somewhere he sang in a neo-nazi band, and this accounts for some of the “radical view” assertions.

    That apparently is pretty much what made Michael Page tick. So in this case the shooting up of innocent bystanders was because the killer perceived them as being foreign and alien, perhaps somehow tied in with Islamicism.

    washington.cbslocal.com: The Southern Poverty Law Center told the Associated Press that Page was a musician in white power bands whose lyrics express hate against minorities and ethnic groups.

    Mark Potok, spokesperson for the Southern Poverty Law Center, said Monday that Page had been on the white power music scene for more than a decade in bands including Definite Hate and End Apathy.

    Potok says the music is so violent and full of lyrics talking about carrying out genocide against the Jews and other minorities that the whole business exists almost exclusively over the Internet.

    Mark (70c729)

  87. 87 Mark

    1. If listening to or recording hate filled lyrics were a crime, all the rap musicians would be in jail.

    2. The Southern Poverty Law Center probably has a file on me because I am white, a shooter, a conservative and Vietnam veteran who lives in Alabama. My wife is probably equally feared. She belongs to the DAR, Colonial Dames and the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

    Arch (0baa7b)

  88. 79 Sarah

    The shooter apparently has a daughter in Korea. The authorities wanted to notify her before releasing his name.

    Arch (0baa7b)

  89. I read he got a general discharge “under honorable conditions.”

    Often those are linked to substance abuse or mental illness.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  90. Thank’s Arch. It was a little mysterious.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  91. And here is some rather icky cover art on one of his albums. Looks like he might have liked to ruminate on an inglorious ending to his existence.

    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/litho/Unknown.jpg

    SarahW (b0e533)

  92. Still not much about his general discharge, but there’s this (from postcrescent.com) confirming that his low rank at discharge was a result of a bust from a higher rank:

    [An] official told The Associated Press on Monday that Page entered the Army in 1992 and was discharged in 1998. He said the man was busted in rank from sergeant to specialist, but he gave no reason.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  93. Comment by SarahW — 8/6/2012 @ 8:58 am

    Thanks for looking it up.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  94. Mark, you’re seriously quoting the SPLC?! What sane person takes that crew seriously?

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  95. 92. And chose WI to commit suicide because there’d be no chance he’d shot or be shot by some one he knew.

    Outside Loughner the queerest bird yet.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  96. The shooter did not have a 9/11 tattoo:

    Carlson of the FBI told the Journal Sentinel that there is no 9-11 tattoo on Page’s body. Several national news organizations reported Sunday that the shooter had such a tattoo.

    However, it appears the police want to question a man who has a 9/11 tattoo and who was at the scene after the shooting.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  97. I am told that ‘psychological operations’ and stuff like ‘military intelligence’ is an example of a place where you put screwups until they time out of the service.

    Mainly because it has a lot of desk jobs away from firearms where you can give them useless meaningless scutwork until they leave.

    For kicks, you give these guys reports on crop circles, UFOs and so forth and have them write up the reports on same. Sometimes they go completely round the bend from it.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  98. Well, thanks for that luagha, that explains why the Air Force recruited me to be an Intelligence Analyst – I’m just a natural born screw-up.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  99. You’re welcome! 🙂

    You can tell us whether you think you did real work or not. 🙂

    Or maybe you can’t tell us.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  100. Moving to Milwaukee to get your life back on track should normally work out better than this, but try Houston first. Then Omaha, Anchorage, …

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  101. laugha, I can tell you, but then I’d have to terminate you, or chain you in front of a monitor playing Barack’s greatest hits;
    Your Choice!

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  102. I am told that ‘psychological operations’ and stuff like ‘military intelligence’ is an example of a place where you put screwups until they time out of the service.

    Mainly because it has a lot of desk jobs away from firearms where you can give them useless meaningless scutwork until they leave.

    At least screw ups against whom delericition of duty charges would not stick.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  103. The whole picture points to loadie, of the ETOH variety, plus whatever personality pathology went with it. I’m suspicious of his 1994 misdemeanor in Texas as being alcohol-related. And then there are the repeated DUIs – 1999, just after he got the boot from the army (and he blew town instead of completing treatment), again in 2010 (DWI) in North Carolina,

    In 1994 Wade Michael Page was convicted of a “Class A Misdemeanor” in Houston Texas County Court, but I don’t have any details on the offense yet
    In 1999 he was convicted of Driving Under the Influence (DUI) in Denver County Court, Denver Colorado

    There’s another traffic stop in 2002 in California-

    In 2010 he was convicted of Driving While Impaired (DWI) in Harnett County, North Carolina

    General discharges for substance abuse issues are common. I’ll be interested to see what his “pattern of misconduct” was.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  104. Page may or may not be a white supremicist but I would not take the SPLC’s word for it. I wouldn’t believe SPLC if they told me the sun rose in the east this morning.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  105. Arc, there was a Sikh who attacked the shooter, got a cut on him according to one story and may be why the shooter then retreated from the temple.

    If the story pans out, someone taking on the shooter with a knife may have kept the total toll down somewhat.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  106. If the story pans out, someone taking on the shooter with a knife may have kept the total toll down somewhat.

    Hmm, a kitchen knife, or one of those 3-inch pen-knives that they carry in the West in deference to our disrespect for the second and first amendments? If the latter, imagine what he could have done with a full-size kirpan such as Sikhs carry in India.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  107. Abc now informs that his “pattern of misconduct” leading to the rank bust an general discharge included being AWOL and drunk on duty.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  108. I don’t know much, but I know killers. When small, I sat on the knee of one who got three separate death sentences. They kill for trivial reasons or no reason at all.

    As far as the kirpan goes, the Sikhs have been winning on First Amendment grounds. After Heller, they also have Second Amendment grounds. There are already cases that recognize that a knife is well within Second Amendment protection, despite Scalia’s “well, the King’s Statute of 1564 did not allow them in the marketplace”.

    nk (875f57)

  109. But if I feel I need a weapon I’ll carry a pistol, and carry a pocket knife just because I might want to whittle sometime. 😉

    nk (875f57)

  110. *Heller and MacDonald*

    nk (875f57)

  111. Hey, how about some attention to the cop who arrived first on the scene and took fire trying to help the victims?

    http://oakcreek.patch.com/articles/ambushed-cop-shot-9-times-refused-aid-and-ordered-officers-to-help-victims

    PCD (d3f1b7)

  112. Thanks for that, PCD

    nk- what about airplanes, do sikhs get to take their kirpan with them- do most have a small one in their turban these days, as opposed to a “real sword”? I guess Sikhs have been known to be valiant soldiers in war, being commended by Churchill

    Milhouse comments above that the purpose is to be able to defend oneself and others, which I guess has been lost to simply more tradition and ceremony. I wonder if there are any “Reformed Sikhs” who will say that in 2012 to be faithful to the original concept something more than essentially a ceremonial knife is needed.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  113. I wonder if Nikki Haley will comment.

    I wouldn’t blame a Sikh for carrying a firearm now.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  114. That’s right – alcoholism.

    He also broke up with his girlfriend sometime in early spring.

    Not that he was so disturbed, distraught or suicidal because of that, but she was probably keeping him from doing anything with white supremacist “anti-apathy” groups the last half a dozen years.

    And then came the Aurora shooting, which reminded him of some ideas he had had.

    And so he bought a gun…

    Sammy Finkelman (609c6a)

  115. For what it’s worth, the New York Times (in an unrelated article) reported that Milwakee has the most segregated (vs a vs blacks) residential patterns in the country in the top, 100 metropolitan areas. New York City is second.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/nyregion/on-upper-east-side-racial-disparity-remains.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    Source: a 2011 study by the Brookings Institution. The author is William H. Frey, who said a lot of it has to do with the proportion of older housing and the lack of new developments since the 1960s.

    Sammy Finkelman (609c6a)

  116. MD, they are not allowed to carry their kirpans on planes, according to what I’ve read, after 9/11.

    From what I’ve also read, they are largely a military class, at least during the British period, along with another Punjabi group whose name escapes me.

    As for intolerance in India, the current Indian Prime Minister, the equivalent to our President in terms of real power, is a Sikh.

    nk (875f57)

  117. what about airplanes, do sikhs get to take their kirpan with them-

    Every time I see a Sikh at an airport I ask him that question. Apparently they reluctantly accommodate themselves to the reality that they will not be allowed to take it on board with them, by one of the following ways: 1) The kirpan is in checked luggage, and since it’s traveling with me that’s enough for me to be considered armed. 2) I carry a cloth “kirpan”. 3) For lack of choice, I’m not carrying it.

    Milhouse (3cbb92)

  118. From what I’ve also read, they are largely a military class, at least during the British period

    Actually most of them are farmers. But they arose as a resistance to Moslem rule, so every Sikh is in spirit a warrior.

    Milhouse (3cbb92)

  119. …so every Sikh is in spirit a warrior.

    They are supposed to conduct themselves as saint-warriors, standing up for themselves as well as anyone they witness being unjustly oppressed or assaulted.

    Cool religion, really. Although I would suggest sharpening those ceremonial knives, just in case.

    I mean, if you’re keeping it the temple, and it’s private property, you’re not going to run afoul of any knife laws.

    115. I wouldn’t blame a Sikh for carrying a firearm now.

    Comment by PCD — 8/7/2012 @ 7:31 am

    I don’t think there was anything stopping them from doing that before.

    Steve57 (5797fd)

  120. 122, Wisconsin gun laws under Gov. Doyle and democrat idiots like Rep. Gwen Moore and Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett to name 3.

    Steve, ask your question on Badger Blogger. That is a Racine based blog.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  121. PCD, it’s not a question. I didn’t understand your comment about how you wouldn’t blame a Sikh if they carried a firearm was directed solely at Sikhs living in Wisconsin.

    There’s nothing about Sikhism that would prevent a Sikh from carrying a gun, and they do in other states.

    Steve57 (5797fd)

  122. I believe Wisconsin has open and concealed carry now.

    nk (875f57)

  123. nk, indeed the state of Wisconsin will recognize my state’s permit 😉

    SPQR (26be8b)

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  125. Once again, a spammer more coherent than the trolls.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  126. Cool religion, really.

    Yes, very. If I were looking for a new one, that would be on the top of my short list.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)


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