Aurora Suspect to Appear in Court; Obama Suddenly Against More Gun Control
Story on Holmes’s court appearance here.
Still think we don’t need the death penalty?
P.S. Obama says we don’t need more gun control in response to the Aurora shooting. Except, he likes gun control, assault weapons bans, and so forth. Goodness gracious, what explains the change? Could it be that gun control is a loser in the polls, and there is an election coming up?
Principle!
Hope! Change!
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:35 amObama is an unbelievable chickenshit.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:37 amGuns are a lousy topic for them. Cough cough fast and furious cough cough
JD (d1dc14) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:39 amAny contentious issue is lousy for Obama. It’s hard to maintain a soothing baritone with a fence post up your ass.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:42 amMost of us see Romney sitting right next to Obama with equal discomfort for a similar reason.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:44 amAsking this administration to control guns is like allowing a 4 year old to eat all of his Halloween candy the same night and then telling him to sit still.
Icy (b03626) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:48 amIt’s going to be a terribly depressing election cycle.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:48 amNot to worry, Patterico. The day after the election, win or lose, Obama will be back on-message.
Icy (b03626) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:56 amRomney acts uncomfortable when he has to take inconsistent positions. Obama does it so easily that it’s hard to believe.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:59 amIf this guy hasn’t abdicated his right to live, then no one has.
Icy (b03626) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:07 am“Romney acts uncomfortable when he has to take inconsistent positions.”
– DRJ
When he chooses to take inconsistent positions. We shouldn’t let him off the hook that easily.
Leviticus (e923df) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:14 am______________________________________________
P.S. Obama says we don’t need more gun control
Even a broken-down clock tells the correct time twice a day. Although Obama is such a malfunctioning piece of junk that the only reason he tells it correctly right now is for purely political reasons.
And for people who always pine away for more gun control, I often want to tell them: “Let others worry about that, and you worry about the type of judges who are inserted throughout the judicial system.”
Mark (a346be) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:16 amAsking this administration to control guns is like:
Icy (b03626) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:18 am— asking Robin Williams to try decaf
— asking Chris Rock to do a routine wherein he DOESN’T mention race
— asking Lawrence O’Donnell to hug a Mormon
— asking Ed Schultz to shake hands with a non-union employee
— asking the Veep to say something-anything intelligible
— asking the Cubbies to win
the seriesthe pennanttheir divisionone damn game fer chrissakes!That’s true, Leviticus.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:22 amP.S. Obama says we don’t need more gun control
I sure as heck do. I have two inches parralax at one foot. Even a laser dot won’t work for me.
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:23 am“That’s true, Leviticus.”
– DRJ
You’re right about the ease with which Obama prevaricates, though – and right that he seems far more comfortable with it than Romney does.
Leviticus (e923df) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:28 amWas at a brunch yesterday and one of the hosts (who I really do like very much otherwise) is a flaming kool aid drinking prog on all prog issues. He was saying that at least some good might come out of the theater shootings if people now finally demanded federal gun control. He loved that mayor Bloomberg had put both Obama and Romney on the spot and challenged them to state their policy and intentions regarding gun control. I just kept my mouth shut but thought to myself, “Sure, fool. Obama and Axe are prolly apoplectic and ready to kill Bloomberg for throwing down the gauntlet in a tight race for the presidency in an election year”.
elissa (1e20c3) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:29 am___________________________________________
is a flaming kool aid drinking prog on all prog issues
I know a similarly flaming liberal, but in this case, the guy sputters and fumes about the NRA, but, believe it or not, he also happily and smugly says he owns guns and implies he’d never register them even if that was required. The phrase “limousine liberal” has come up in certain conversations I’ve had with the person in question.
Mark (a346be) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:38 amIt makes sense to me that Mayor Bloomberg is in favor of more gun control; guns are scary in New York because basically any time *anyone* uses one, an innocent bystander who wasn’t part of the confrontation gets shot. This is a density problem; there are just too many people around for guns to be a safe form of self-defense.
But that basically doesn’t apply in places with normal density, so while Mayor Bloomberg is wrong about what *the country* needs.
As for President Obama … meh. The man was never actually the great liberal hope that liberals deluded themselves into thinking he was (while conservatives were blindly denouncing him as being one), and he’s shown that more with every passing month.
aphrael (a2f252) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:45 am_____________________________________________
The man was never actually the great liberal hope that liberals deluded themselves into thinking he was
But his gut biases and natural instincts (and history) are that of an ultra-liberal. From that standpoint, an observer would have to be an ultra-ultra-liberal to believe that Obama himself isn’t very, very liberal. However, his notorious ego and hubris (and greed) may sometimes make him do things he’d rather not do, such as glomming onto millions of dollars from his pals on Wall Street or having to schmooze with even semi-red-dog Democrats.
OTOH, Obama also has been reportedly involved in bisexual/homosexual activity in the past — not to mention his recently coming out in favor of same-sex marriage — so that makes him even more sympatico with the left.
Mark (a346be) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:58 amObama may not be dependably liberal, at least not when his own election is at stake, but he is definitely a liberal. His executive orders and the people he has appointed confirm that.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:00 amObama is the teleprompter script (and press releases) his handlers write for him.
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:13 amVideo: Colorado Shooting Suspect James Holmes in Court
Donald Douglas (@AmPowerBlog) (bc10ca) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:19 amhttp://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes.html
“…there are just too many people around for guns to be a safe form of self-defense…”
Comment by aphrael — 7/23/2012 @ 8:45 am
Gun Control means hitting what you aim at – a skill that seems to be sorely lacking within the confines of the NYPD!
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:28 amBTW, there were reports that the AR-15 that Holmes was using “jammed”, forcing him to go to his pistol and/or shotgun.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:32 amI believe, when it is all sorted out, we’ll find out that the over-hyped 100-rd magazine fitted to his AR (a BETA C-Mag) was at fault for the jam.
Thanks for the link, Donald Douglas. Holmes looks like he’s medicated.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:37 amAD-Rtr/OS: it’s not just the police.
In the Bronx last night, ironically enough at a memorial for somone killed in a knife fight, someone walked up to a basketball court and started shooting. One of the basketball players shot back. A four year old kid was killed in the crossfire, and two adult were injured.
The four year old kid was not the target of *either* shooter. But … bullets go astray. And in the city, when a bullet goes astray, there’s always someone to get hit by it.
aphrael (a2f252) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:39 amThe offender may not be a careful shooter but that doesn’t mean armed and licensed citizens won’t be careful. Not only may it save lives, it might deter some of those careless offenders from shooting in the first place.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:43 amCollateral Damage is a frequent result of “barrio/ghetto” incidents involving the use of firearms. The best example of this is the Michael Douglas movie “Falling Down”.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:54 amWe’re not talking about trained U.S.Marines, just a bunch of thugs who learned everything they know about guns watching Steven Seagal movies.
aphrael, I would direct your attention to an incident in the past week or two at a fast-food joint in Ocala FL, where two youts attempted a heist and were interrupted by a 70+ Geezer with a small-caliber handgun.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:57 amScore:
Geezer wins and finishes meal; youts go to jail, via hospital.
No Collateral Damage!
In shooting incidents with legal concealed carry permit holders, the number of times that a bystanding is killed by the permit holder is extraordinarily rare.
In recent times, I’ve only seen one – an incident in a convenience store robbery where the exchange of gunfire between civilian and robber resulted in the clerk being hit by the civilian’s fire.
Far rarer than police shootings for one thing. For that matter, I saw an account of a California police officer trying to put down an injured horse with his sidearm and accidentally hitting another officer fatally …
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 9:58 amAn event, again in CO, with different results;
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html
Kevin P. (97b78a) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:04 amAD-RtR/OS, at 30: Based on the population and land area figures in Ocala’s wikipedia page, Ocala has a population density of 1384 people per square mile. Based on similar figures on *its* wikipedia page, the Bronx has a population density of 33,143 people per square mile.
My argument is based on density: that certain areas, NYC included, have a high enough density that *any* use of guns, for good or for evil, has an unacceptably high risk of collateral damage.
It therefore doesn’t surprise me that you can point me to a collateral-damage-free case in a place with substantially lower density. True! but not relevant to my argument. 🙂
aphrael (a2f252) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:08 amYou realize that CCW training takes things like how many people are around into account, right?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:14 amFortunate the Colorado Gunman wasn’t using a reliable weapon, like an AK…
Frank Drackman (3db633) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:14 amBecause if we accept your argument, aphrael, ultimately we have to disarm the NYC police, too. Do you advocate that?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:15 amDRJ, many in the minority community within NYC would advocate just that, especially after some of the more infamous incidents involving the NYPD and unarmed individuals who had multiple officers firing dozens of rounds (+/-) at them (Diullu, anyone?).
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:37 amBTW, aphrael, what do you think the population density is within the average fast-food joint (one worth holding up) at 7pm?
I’m sorry, but I don’t wish to live in Australia, or England/Wales, that now have the highest proportion of their populations that have been victims of a violent crime in the civilized world
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:43 am(the U.S. doesn’t even make the Top-10).
That is what happens when you disarm the law-abiding segment of the population, which is what our Anglo cousins have done.
Remember, these shootings invariable occur in so-called “gun free zones”, where the thug has a high degree of certainty of NOT facing an armed victim.
Back to Holmes … he really looks like The Joker with that orange-red hair. Of course, his dark hair will grow out but I wonder if the defense or the prosecution will want to show his photos more.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:36 amYou realize that CCW training takes things like how many people are around into account, right?
You realize that training how to shoot when no one is shooting at you isn’t worth all that much when some actually IS shooting at you?
libarbarian (803b96) — 7/23/2012 @ 12:36 pmObama is a principled man. He stands for increasing Marxism no matter what.
The Borg (62fcf7) — 7/23/2012 @ 12:51 pmYou realize that unless you’ve been to BUD/S or something very close to it you probably will never train to shoot with anyone shooting at you.
Cops don’t get that kind of training. What they do get is immunity for acting in an official capacity. Now a citizen doesn’t. Every round down range the citizen can be sued over. Even a bullet that passes through the intended target and hits a bystander will get your butt sued, let alone a miss.
Which is why whenever possible it’s always best to have a backstop that will stop a bullet. Just in case the criminal won’t.
Aphrael, I agree whenever Bloomberg talks gun control it’s a density issue. Just not how you intended it.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:01 pmYou realize that training how to shoot when no one is shooting at you isn’t worth all that much when some actually IS shooting at you?
Comment by libarbarian — 7/23/2012 @ 12:36 pm
You realize that your comment is idiotic? You realize that you just claimed that every police and infantry training program was meaningless?
No, you don’t realize that because you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:15 pmSteve57,
True, most people will never get the chance to train with someone shooting at them, but thats the not the point. The point is that anyone who thinks that even many hours of nice, safe, and relaxed shooting at a range is going to translate into efficient actions/reactions in a real life&death shooting situations is simply fooling themselves. The idea that someone who does this is going to be less effected by the powerful surge of fear and adrenaline that comes with being in immediate mortal danger, and therefore capable of calmly aiming his shots through a crowd of bystanders, is laughably ignorant.
99% of them are going to do what 99% of all people do in that situation, wildly fire off shots in the general direction of their target while simultaneously ducking/diving for cover.
libarbarian (803b96) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:19 pmYou realize that you just claimed that every police and infantry training program was meaningless?
NO, because the police & military use other techniques to compensate – like practice under other forms of real stress and massive repetition of drill to the point where you can act despite the pressure.
Most civilian gun users don’t do these things in any serious fashion. They go to the range and fire off shots in relative leisure.
libarbarian (803b96) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:22 pmComment by libarbarian — 7/23/2012 @ 1:19 pm
You train to install “muscle memory” so that your sub-conscience can operate regardless of the amount of adrenaline that is being pumped into your system.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:25 pmPlease do us all a favor, and stay in that libarbary(sic) where you’ll be out-of-the-way, and won’t be able to muck things up too badly.
libarbarian, you are utterly ignorant. That’s the bottom line.
Your knowledge of training available to civilians today is pure ignorance. Your belief that police training is somehow uniquely suited is just stupidity piled atop ignorance.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:26 pmSPQR, he must have a PhD!
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:27 pmAD, yep.
The stupidity of the trolls can get annoying. I first began competing in practical pistol shooting three decades ago. Shot and officiated at national-level match events. libarbarian is a clown.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:31 pm49- because being a competitive shooter is the same as going through the police academy or military training… and you are calling someone else ignorant? Silly, silly man.
tye (816dba) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:40 pmtye, you are right actually. In practice, I’ve had orders of magnitude more training and practice than the average police officer. I’ve in fact fired two to three orders of magnitude more rounds than the average police officer over his career.
You are the moron.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:50 pmI’m hearing reports of suspicious packages left at Anshutz and the CU hospital. At least one slipped under a door early this am, obviously not JH.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:53 pmOr anyway, not a delivery he’s made himself.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:53 pmA link about the packages: http://www.chron.com/news/article/Univ-of-Colo-gets-suspicious-packages-Monday-3727072.php
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:55 pmPolice have more training than just firing a gun at a target over and over again. So yes… i am right.
tye (816dba) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:57 pmHey tye, how’s it going?
Are you going to ask people to post pictures of their spouses in this thread?
Remember when you did that? It was awesome. Do it again.
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 7/23/2012 @ 1:58 pmtye, you are an idiot.
I shot alongside – usually getting beaten – people like Todd Jarrett, Robbie Leatham, Brian Enos, Frank Garcia, Mas Ayoob and others. Many of those guys, and others, have shooting schools where police, specops people and others go to learn.
During my days of active competition, my logs show that I averaged5,000 rounds a year.
You are a blithering idiot.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:00 pmA complete and utter idiot.
But then, we’ve established tye, that you know what the windows of the short bus taste like.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:01 pmI have no doubt that you shoot more often than a police officer. You are equating this with police training. They are not the same. For example: a person who competes in long drive contests does not necessarily have the skill set to win on the PGA. Why don’t you respond to this post with yet another assertion that you fire more rounds than a police officer? Let’s see how many times you can miss the point. Maybe you can do a little more name dropping in your next obtuse reiteration?
tye (816dba) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:11 pmNever trust content from ABC:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/07/holmes-mother-suggests-abc-news-mischaracterized-her-129835.html#.UA29Guw4yTZ.twitter
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:14 pmtye, you have no clue what the average police officer’s training consists of. I do, as I’ve reviewed the POST requirements of several states, and as I’ve spent a lot of time on the range with police officers, SWAT members, military specops personnel, etc.
You are a seventh grader playing with mommy’s internet connection.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:14 pmAnd shame on me for relying on their coverage.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:15 pmtye, seriously you have no clue what you are talking about. You’ve already repeatedly shown what dense idiot you are. Why compound the problem. Have you ever handled a firearm in your life? Judging by your insufferable beta male weenie persona that oozes through every one of your posts I’m guessing no.
Jack Klompus (8de759) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:16 pmYou have no idea what I know.
tye (816dba) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:16 pmI know that you’re an insufferable bore.
Jack Klompus (8de759) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:17 pmIsn’t it precious the way tyke upholds the training of LE as a standard to emulate; where (Dollar to a Do-nut) in the Gates Affair, he was probably slamming the Cambridge PD for their lack of training and sensitivity.
FYI tyke, the majority of time spent by LE in their “training” is learning the applicability of the law to various situations, and how it prescribes and proscribes their actions.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:19 pmFirearms training is probably the most neglected part of LE training.
Well, that comment by the troll is almost in the same smug yet halfwit category as “I work here is done.”
Simon Jester (297d83) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:28 pmThat’s because you conceal it so well.
You’ve commented how many times, tye? And we’ve yet to see any evidence you know anything at all.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:28 pmYou have no idea what I know.
Comment by tye — 7/23/2012 @ 2:16 pm
I have a pretty good idea that the sum total of your knowledge is asymptotically approaching zero the more you comment.
SPQR (17feec) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:41 pmSarahW–I must say that Arlene’s version as told to Politico makes more sense to me than ABC’s “breaking news version” Her’s sounds much closer to what a person/parent being awakened by a total stranger with a troubling question would tentatively reply. It would also explain why she said she needed to hang up and call the police (which was also reported that first morning).
Now, of course, ABC can say, “Seee, we’re not showing systemic bias–we’re just stupid and incompetent about every aspect of news gathering and reporting!”
elissa (1e20c3) — 7/23/2012 @ 2:43 pmelissa (and Sarah W),
Mrs. Holmes’ statement as read by her attorney indeed sounds very plausible, especially as she notes be awakened by the 5:45 am phone call inquiry and having no knowledge of what took place in Aurora.
When I read this, all I could think was that if they were really interested in regaining some integrity, they would have fired Brian Ross the minute the gaffe was discovered. It wasn’t his first time. Short of that, how do they think they are going to prevent further blunders when management came out the day after and emphatically stated (in attempts to reassure) that Ross/ABC have absolutely no political motive in their reporting.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/23/2012 @ 3:00 pmThere was the story yesterday about the LEO who shot and killed his son, thinking he was an intruder in his hotel room. So much for the superiority of LEO training.
htom (412a17) — 7/23/2012 @ 3:02 pmYeah, I wondered the context of her answering in that way.
As if her nightmare isn’t bad enough.
MayBee (fb7121) — 7/23/2012 @ 3:06 pmHere’s the follow-up from ABC News, who is standing by their claim.
Ms. Holmes’ response to Mosk, “You have the right person” could have been understood to mean that she was indeed confirming that was the mother of a James Holmes of Aurora, Colorado.
Since there is no audio recording of the call, I am not going to read anything else to it. Primarily because it’s a reasonable interpretation of her response, and also because I don’t trust ABC News.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/23/2012 @ 4:09 pmAllahpundit has a post up at Hot Air; the best point i’ve seen raised there tending to discredit ABC’s fine reporting, is that there was no follow up to a statement that the reporter at ABC presented as Mom thinking her son did it.
In the best case for ABC, according to their own account of events, that statement is nothing but ambiguous; even if context made it seem less so, my opinion is that the reporter would follow up – why do you say that, or “why do you believe that”.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 5:54 pmIOW, I don’t trust ABC.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 5:54 pmAlso, having had my own statements chopped into new meaning by reporters, I have little doubt ABC would go with the exciting over the correct.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/23/2012 @ 5:55 pm49- because being a competitive shooter is the same as going through the police academy or military training… and you are calling someone else ignorant? Silly, silly man.
Comment by tye — 7/23/2012 @ 1:40 pm
— Aww, how cute! The liebarbarian defended by the lievulgarian.
You have no idea what I know.
Icy (1d4891) — 7/23/2012 @ 6:41 pmComment by tye — 7/23/2012 @ 2:16 pm
— None of us do, least of all yourself.
I’ll tell you tye, you don’t know Jack Schitt about LEO firearms training. However, I do know about it by having been an LEO. Most of the departments across this land of ours train in the same way and with the same type of silhouette targets.
It used to be 6 rds. @ 1 yd and abt 15 sec,
6 rds. @ 3yd and abt 15 sec,
12 rds @ 5 yds and abt 30 sec,
12 rds @ 7 yds and abt 30 sec,
12 rds @ 15 yds and abt 45 sec,
6 rds @ 25 yds and abt 60 sec.
A score of 70 pts. is needed to pass. However, a lot of departments leave out the 6 rds. @ 25 yds and added them to make 12 rds @ 3 yds. This being that 50% of Police shootings occur within the 3 ft range, and 90% occur within 10 feet of suspect. Only 10% of Police involved shootings occur at distances of greater than 10 feet.
And furthermore, most Police Officers ARE lousy shots, and the only time they see range time is during semiannual firearm qualification. They are also limited in the amount of ammo that each officer may use per month, IF the department does the providing, if not the individual officer has to buy his own practice ammo.
The department I worked for was unusual in that it required us to qualify quarterly and allowed each officer 100 rds per month practice ammo. Since I and seven other officers were on the departments shooting team and were also Tach Officers, we were allowed 500 rds per sidearm, 200 rifle rds., and 50 shotgun rds per month.
The best training for LEO’s is the Shoot Don’t Shoot Simulators, but only the larger metropolitan dept.’s can afford them. Most LEO’s work for smaller departments and don’t have access to these simulators.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/23/2012 @ 7:47 pmTye and lib likely know guns only from TV/movies and, more likely, have handled a “gun” only in the sense of “This is my rifle, This is my gun, This is for shooting, This is for fun”.*
* Learned that in ’71, long before the movie. 😉
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:02 pmBTW, SPQR, didn’t know that about you. Now I’ll be embarassed to do gun talk when you’re around.
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:07 pm81-
AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:12 pmI have seen it all now.
An atty that can be embarrassed.
My comment was #81 on your screen, AD? It’s #82 for me. My profane one, early on the thread, calling the little s*** cowardly sadist, a chicken-s***, punk-a**, phantasist, was blocked I guess.
And, yes, when it comes to knowing things, including guns, I only know how little I know. I have made no secret of that, I hope.
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:22 pmMy comment was #81 on your screen, AD? It’s #82 for me. My profane one, early on the thread, calling the little s*** cowardly sadist, a chicken-s***, punk-a**, phantasist, was blocked I guess.
And, yes, when it comes to knowing things, including guns, I only know how little I know. I have made no secret of that, I hope.
nk (875f57) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:22 pmnk, I’m pretty rusty today. My peak was the late ’80’s. I go back to early days of the Steel Challenge (Mike Dalton and Mickey Fowler) was run at Wes Thompson’s old range out in Saugus (later moved to Piru) and the days of the SouthWest Pistol League at those locations. I knew the guys who founded End of the Trail cowboy match.
I took an RO course from the first President of the USPSA, Dave Stanford, and his wife Marilyn. I took a couple of classes from Gunsite back when Jeff Cooper still ran it.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 8:59 pmre the death penalty, it certainly wouldn’t bother me if this guy ends up executed, but it seems pretty clear that this kind of psychotic crime is not deterred by capital punishment, so I’m not sure why it shows we ‘need’ the death penalty.
Mike (c6c247) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:35 pmDRJ, at 34: no, i didn’t know that. I’m not certain it’s sufficient, though; you can *minimize* the risk, but the risk is still going to be there, and it’s still going to be higher in places of high density than in places of low density.
At the end of the day this is a question about how high you estimate the risk to be and how high your tolerance is for that risk. The disagreement between me and most of the posters on this thread seems to be that I estimate the risk to be higher than they do; I’d maintain that given that innocent bystanders getting accidentally shot is a staple of the NY news reporting, the risk is clearly not as insubstantial as many here would have it be.
aphrael (24797a) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:40 pmpeedoffamerican, thank you for the informative comment at #79.
does the training extend to *moving targets*, or just static ones? I ask because ISTM that the presence of a moving target both makes it more difficult to hit *and* makes it more likely that you might accidentally hit something or someone who is behind where the target *was* before he moved.
aphrael (24797a) — 7/23/2012 @ 10:44 pm“…given that innocent bystanders getting accidentally shot is a staple of the NY news reporting…”
because that is the message that they wish to inculcate in their readership:
Nobody but trained agents of the state should be allowed to use guns at any time.
Just how many stories do they run of a crime being stopped by the use of a gun by someone who is not an agent of the state?
The answer to that question in the daily’s of most metro areas is “zilch”; yet, in papers across America one can find those stories constantly (and a lot of them are reprinted each month in The American Rifleman (one of the official magazines of the NRA) in their “the armed citizen” column.
AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:19 pmYou might find “The Armed Citizen Blog” at http://www.americanrifleman.org, interesting.
AD, with respect, the media aren’t making these stories up; the innocent bystanders *do* get killed.
I take your point that the media are underrepresenting the frequency of the kind of story you’re interested in (crimes being stopped by the use of a gun), but they aren’t overrepresenting the number of dead innocent bystanders.
Which means that the underrepresentation isn’t particularly interesting except as per se media criticism – since my premise is that there’s an unacceptably high risk of the death of an innocent bystander, the fact that i’m misunderstanding the potential for some other good byproduct (stopped crime) isn’t relevant.
aphrael (24797a) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:24 pmaphrael — there are several things that factor into the bystander shootings. Leading the pack is that the LEO is responding to a reported crime, while the CCW is responding to a criminal act he’s seeing and thus much less likely to choose the wrong target. LEO doesn’t get to shrug and walk away, either, much of the time. CCW probably has more practice and better practice than the typical LEO and is much more afraid of making a mistake; the Blue Shield will not cover him. CCW is usually by herself, no backup, no one to copy or support or any of the other group think things that lead to 70 or 90 shots at a target and everything in the vicinity.
SPQR — I’m envious.
htom (412a17) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:25 pmhtom – i’m not even getting into LEO shootings. see, for example, my first comment on the issue: dude walks up to a basketball court and starts shooting. basketball player shoots back at the shooter. four year old gets killed.
aphrael (24797a) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:32 pmUSPSA course design just loves movers and “no shoot” targets.
Rob Leatham uploaded this video of the 2011 Single Stack Nationals. The plastic bags over targets is to protect from rain. The white targets are “no shoots” ie., “good guys”. No one at this match used a gun with more than a 10 round magazine. Watch how fast such can be shot and reloaded with practice.
Damn, Robbie is getting as fat as I am. That makes me feel better.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:36 pmaphrael, gangs shootings are intentionally indiscriminate. They are terrorizing people.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/23/2012 @ 11:37 pmIt depends upon your understanding of the purpose of the death penalty. As far as I’m concerned, the only justification is to prevent the individual in question from killing again. Some people are so dangerous they simply can’t be allowed to continue to live. They’ll kill their cellmate or a guard.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/24/2012 @ 12:00 amAphrael,
The vast majority of LEO courses are static targets. You stand in front of it and blast away at the sound of the beginning command or whistle, until the sound of the ending whistle. Some do have targets that revolve towards you into the shooting position to begin the timing sequence, and then revolve back to perpendicular to end the timing sequence.
I have also shot on Hogans Alley ranges where pop up targets appear of either good guys, bad guys, or both for a limited amount of time, and these are more difficult than the most commonly used static target ranges.
But most ranges are shared and maintained by several LEO agencies to reduce costs and also due to having to be isolated in rural areas with berms to protect from stray rounds.
I have also used the Shoot, Don’t Shoot simulator and have found this to be the most realistic training that is available at this time. Blanks are fired and a light beam tracks the “bullet’s” path to target. It involves the use of videos of staged real life scenarios, and does get the shooter immersed in the situation with accompanying raised adrenalin levels, blood pressure, etc.
However, like I said above, these simulators are still tremendously expensive. The course that I completed was slightly more than 30 minutes, so that means that simulator use also limits the actual number of people that can be trained per machine in a 24 hour period. So most city governments don’t consider them “cost effective”.
peedoffamerican (606d27) — 7/24/2012 @ 10:30 amComment by Mike — 7/23/2012 @ 10:35 pm
but it seems pretty clear that this kind of psychotic crime is not deterred by capital punishment
Someone who wrote about the death penalty in the 1990s or earlier wrote that it is only actual executions that deter.
James Holmes is no lawyer and no mobster and he probably didn’t research the law (although mobsters really study not laws, but law enforcement – life imprisonment is already way too high for them)
Colorado has the death penalty on its books, although there has not been an execution since 1997. But Arapahoe County has a district attorney who has brought more death penalty cases than anybody else in Colorado.
Sammy Finkelman (f560b6) — 7/24/2012 @ 10:39 amMs. Holmes’ response to Mosk, “You have the right person…was apparently about her own name.
Sammy Finkelman (f560b6) — 7/24/2012 @ 10:40 ampeedoffamerican, thank you.
i understand why the economics of the situation results in the vast majority of courses being static targets. that said, it does not make me feel safer about gun use in dense areas. :{
aphrael (5d993c) — 7/24/2012 @ 10:41 amComment by SPQR — 7/23/2012 @ 11:36 pm
Watched Jerry Miculek win his 20th consecutive International Revolver Championship at Morro Bay last month – he’s not getting “fat”, nor slowing down.
The man is just incredible in his discipline.
When he could coast, he did; and when he needed to step up his game, he grabbed over-drive.
And, he’s not too bad with a 1911 either.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/24/2012 @ 10:49 amAD, Jerry is nice people. Son in law of the late legendary gunsmith Jim Clark.
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/24/2012 @ 11:04 amAh, it looks like there is someone as vile as tye, but with slightly better grammar and vocabulary skills:
(from the Other McCain).
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/24/2012 @ 11:24 amJerry is nice people
Yes, he was quite pleasant to me.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/24/2012 @ 11:31 amPerhaps that I was the rep for one of the event’s major sponsors had some influence on that; but I did notice that he always had time to talk to anyone who approached him, as long as it was during a period when he wasn’t getting prepared to hit the line.
Amanda, I’m sure that the crime-stats of the 60’s/70’s/80’s had nothing to do with it at all.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/24/2012 @ 11:34 amAfter all, the Left had thoroughly demonstrated that being nice to thugs, and prison-based rehab programs were entirely effective approaches to crime prevention.
Death penalty. I can’t call it justice for this guy to get room, board, and a lifetime of free Paxil.
The Sanity Inspector (0472b5) — 7/24/2012 @ 12:58 pmDuring his 114 or so days as Illinois Senator, Obama tried to ban gun shops from operating within 5 miles of a school. There is virtually no geographic location in the state that isn’t within 5 miles of a school.
Obama: Legislation by circumvention.
CrustyB (69f730) — 7/24/2012 @ 12:58 pmBTW, have you seen video of the shooter’s Mom? I first just read the reports of her statement and didn’t watch the video, without listening to the woman herself. I noticed something odd – not in her demeanor, exactly, nothing that would diminish her credibility – but something odd nonetheless.
She made stereotypical gestures with her face and mouth, included repeated tongue thrusting that resembles tardive dyskinesia, motor tics that develop in some cases following use of some pharmaceuticals including anti-psychotics.
If she has a neuro-psychiatric history of her own, that would increase her son’s chances of being an affected individual.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/24/2012 @ 1:59 pmArgh with that post above. Didn’t sleep a wink last night. About to crash.
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/24/2012 @ 2:04 pmSarahW–
Anita Dunn who was White House Communications Director back in the early days of the Obama administration, and who still pontificates on political talk shows, also has that same lip licking tic you describe in Mrs. Holmes. I never contemplated that there might be a recognized neurological or medical reason for it. But it sure is annoying to watch in both women.
elissa (036455) — 7/24/2012 @ 3:50 pmIs it anything like the lip/tongue-antics that WFB used to partake in?
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/24/2012 @ 4:18 pmR.I.P. Sherman “George Jefferson” Hemsley
Icy (938611) — 7/24/2012 @ 4:26 pmAD–NO.
elissa (036455) — 7/24/2012 @ 4:29 pmElissa, whatever the case with the mouth tics, I have to assume a genetic contribution is off the table: the Daily Mail says, “According to reports, the neuroscience graduate was adopted and Mrs Holmes, 58, and husband Robert, 61, a software developer, raised him as one of their own.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178304/James-Holmes-Gunman-used-police-evidence-bags-hand-puppets-mother-admits-feared-disturbed-years.html#ixzz21aaPVuot
SarahW (b0e533) — 7/24/2012 @ 5:23 pm==the neuroscience graduate was adopted and Mrs Holmes, 58, and husband Robert, 61, a software developer, raised him as one of their own.==
SarahW–
Well see now, this opens new doors for Brian Ross. Maybe his biological mother is a tea party member.
elissa (036455) — 7/24/2012 @ 5:41 pmElissa says Holmes’ biological parents started the Colorado Tea Party!!!
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/24/2012 @ 6:05 pmSarahW and elissa,
This from the Daily Mail link,
A bit of a reckless statement to make – not even a possibly could have, but a definitive could have…
Dana (292dcf) — 7/24/2012 @ 6:09 pmComment by Dana — 7/24/2012 @ 6:09 pm
That is not only a reckless statement but a cruel one. Any reasonable parent would be in anguish over a child, biological or adopted, who committed anything near this, and is already struggling with wondering what they could have done to have prevented it, when the answer is likely nothing.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/24/2012 @ 6:13 pmI would also add that from the original WaPo article that the Mail links to, we see a parent who is concerned by some outward signs of behavior in her son responded pro-actively.
It is not uncommon for concerned parents to take their teenagers to counseling during the rough years when they observe behavioral issues manifesting themselves. And it is often during the turbulent teenage years, that things come to a head.
This makes the Daily Mail’s statement of assigning her blame for not preventing the massacre when she could have, more reprehensible and nothing more than an obvious attempt to provide an angry, hysterical reaction in readers.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/24/2012 @ 6:21 pmIsn’t that the lawyer reading a statement from the mother, rather than the mother herself?
MayBee (fb7121) — 7/25/2012 @ 12:11 amI can’t see the video here, but that’s what I understood happened.
118. Never actually dwelt on the consideration, ‘What if’, that only child is a daughter.
Just happy she’s wonderful and whole.
But, once in a while, like watch the boys in Montessori bounce off the walls all day, one goes ‘Hmmm’.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/25/2012 @ 11:03 am64. “You have no idea what I know”.
And we are in no danger of discovering either.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/25/2012 @ 11:07 amImportant datum: James Eagan Holmes is adopted.
This means the approach his mother took to him was a more professional, distant, approach than his own borth mother would have taken.
It also means he didn’t feel that any person on earth is related to him.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 2:33 pmSammy, please say that was sarcasm. That you were mocking the Amanda Marcottes who prefer abortion to adoption, for example. Because, if you meant what you wrote, nobody will take anything you say seriously ever again. Not ever.
nk (875f57) — 7/25/2012 @ 2:56 pmnk is right. I don’t know what James Holmes feels but it’s absurd to imply his adopted mother didn’t love him as much as his birth mother.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/25/2012 @ 3:30 pmSammy,
What evidence do you have to *know* that his mother took a more professional, distant approach than his own birth mother would have taken?
And please note, his birth mother gave him up for adoption. While that might have indeed been a great act of love depending on the circumstances, it could have just as easily been the callous discarding of the inconvenient arrival of a baby. That we don’t for sure renders your statement moot.
Dana (5ae38e) — 7/25/2012 @ 3:36 pmSammy Finkelman outdid himself there.
JD (b22d65) — 7/25/2012 @ 3:52 pmI hate to pile on, Sammy, but what you said is ignorant.
Dustin (73fead) — 7/25/2012 @ 3:59 pmI don’t hate to pile on. Borth mother? So she’s Welsh?
carlitos (49ef9f) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:15 pmComment by Dana — 7/25/2012 @ 3:36 pm
What evidence do you have to *know* that his mother took a more professional, distant approach than his own birth mother would have taken?
A statement coming out of the family sounded that way. Something about how they raised him.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:24 pmOne thing they did do, it has been reported, is kick him out of the house – basically force him to go to school in Colorado, which it seems like he was not really interesrted in. It is quite probable that after that, they were not in close communication. A birth mother wouldn’t have done that because it is not logic that motivates her, but feelings. (provided of course she was involved with her son at all, of course.)
Now I don’t know this – it is just a best guess. But it comes out like there was something too professional – and to focused on success.
As we learn more we’ll see if thuis is right.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:36 pmComment by Dana — 7/25/2012 @ 3:36 pm
“And please note, his birth mother gave him up or adoption. While that might have indeed been a great act of love depending on the circumstances, it could have just as easily been the callous discarding of the inconvenient arrival of a baby. That we don’t for sure renders your statement moot.”
A birth mother of couyrse could treat a child badly or neglect it. But this isn’t good either.
Above all, it’s not the same.
“Son of Sam” also was adopted.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:39 pmBreaking news: James Holmes did indeed leave a statemenbt. He told police he had mailed somethinbg to a pshychology professor, and they retrieved it from the university mailroom on Monday.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:40 pmAgain missing the point, Sammy. You can’t take a more distant approach to raising your child than letting someone else like adoptive mother Arlene Holmes do it for you.
Yet you say this unknown woman who gave birth to her son then gave him up for adoption would have had a more personal, closer relationship with her son than the woman who actually wanted to raise him?
Before anyone jumps on me for denigrating women who give their children up for adoption I most certainly am not. Women do that for all sorts of reasons, and in the vast majority of cases I’m sure it’s in the best interests of the child. I’m just pointing out that not only is it impossible for Sammy to have any proof for his assertion, it hardly rationally follows to assume that would be the case.
Steve57 (386607) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:40 pmhttp://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57480221/police-find-disturbing-mail-from-colo-suspect/
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:44 pmFinkelman, you are in space.
SPQR (387207) — 7/25/2012 @ 4:44 pmBecause of course adoptive mothers are driven by cold, calculating reason and a naked ambition for success. That’s what drives adoptive mothers (and fathers) to go through the paperwork, the background investigations, the months of waiting, and often the expense of adoption.
You need to stop, Sammy. For your own sake.
Steve57 (386607) — 7/25/2012 @ 5:03 pmWell, all I can say with absolute certainty, Sammy Finkleman, is that you have never been a birth mother nor a mother of an adopted child. It boggles the mind that you presume to know how a mother, any mother, loves her child.
I am a mother as are several other commenters here, and I would daresay all of us have at varying times been motivated by both logic and feelings, even anger, frustration, overwhelming affection, kindness, etc. All of these. What kind of mothers does that make us?
Dana (5ae38e) — 7/25/2012 @ 5:32 pmMy Mom left with that carnival guy, so as a substitute I glom on to Mary statues-cuz she’s full of grace an shit-but sadly-no milk for my Cherrios
pdbuttons (1ad69e) — 7/25/2012 @ 5:36 pm@ Sammy,
My children went to a private prep school where success was highly emphasized (and I believe given too much value). There were many successful families that were involved in the school. Professionals from a number of walks of life, and the expectation was frequently set out: Children would follow in their parents’ footsteps – college alma maters and professions and legacies…
One of my kids’ friends was an Asian young man whose father and mother were both noted surgeons and the very real expectation was that Micheal would go to an Ivy school and go into medicine. He had a curfew of 10:00 pm in his senior year of high school because he was expected to be home studying. He had to call home every hour to report where he was. He ended up at Stanford and realized he never wanted to go into medicine. Because the focus on success by his parents – his BIRTH PARENTS – was so intense, he ended up on academic probation rather quickly and had to work up the courage to tell them he was not going to follow in their footsteps. He was terrified of disappointing them. But he finally told them, and they were very, very disappointed – to the point of absurdity.
He graduated from Stanford and runs his own successful marketing company.
My point is, you cannot make such broad based judgments on mothering. It’s not that simple.
Dana (5ae38e) — 7/25/2012 @ 5:43 pmSammy — First rule of holes.
I know good mothers and bad mothers, birth mothers and adoptive mothers, good children and bad children, birth children and adopted children. I see no relationship between good or bad, and birth or adopted. There may be such a relationship, but your assertion is insufficient to make the allegation.
htom (412a17) — 7/25/2012 @ 6:11 pmThe sweetest parents I know adopted their sons.
I also have a very close loved one who was adopted, but thanks to the creeps lately I will not elaborate.
Suffice to say that it is not the case that adoptive relationships are in any way less passionate and real and vital.
But yes, you can find many many examples of adopted children having problems. That’s part of what makes it heroic.
Dustin (73fead) — 7/25/2012 @ 6:17 pmSammy,
I have 2 relatives who were adopted, and 2 more whose parents died and they were taken in by relatives. Each was raised and loved exactly like their siblings. In fact, I was grown and married before anyone even told me they were adopted.
Anecdotes don’t tell us what happened in the Holmes’ household, but they do tell us that your assumptions aren’t always correct. But one thing we do know: The news reports indicate neither of the Holmes have abandoned their son. The reports portray Mrs. Holmes as expressing concern for her son, and state that Mr. Holmes flew to Colorado immediately after learning of his son’s arrest. Are those the actions of cold, uncaring adoptive parents?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/25/2012 @ 6:33 pmMAybee- quite right, Lisa Damiani, (Arlene Holme’s attorney who read the former’s statement), is the one with the mouth tics.
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lasting longer in bed for men (0c23b5) — 7/26/2012 @ 2:44 amComment by nk — 7/25/2012 @ 2:56 pm
Sammy, please say that was sarcasm. That you were mocking the Amanda Marcottes who prefer abortion to adoption, for example.
Amanda Marcotte here is quoted about something else that she gets wrong. The explosion of crime happened to take place at the same time as the civil rights movement.
I remember someone who told she preferred abortion to giving away a child. Because if she gave it away she’d always want to know what is going on with the child. So that’s not so unusual. Not logical, maybe, but some women know themselves. They can ewasier contemplate an abortion than a closed adoption.
Because, if you meant what you wrote, nobody will take anything you say seriously ever again. Not ever.
Now you are acting like the people who went ballistic about what a sociologist reported about the family, as mentioned in an article by Andrew Ferguson http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/revenge-sociologists_648829.html
We all know about divorced families etc.
Now here are some clues as to the statistics. (it is not that extreme outcomes are common, it is that extreme outcomes are more likely)
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/adopted-children-by-the-numbers/
Among its findings: the overwhelming majority of families whose children came to them through adoption are doing just fine….Similarly, while “only a small minority of adopted children have ever been diagnosed with disorders such as attachment disorder, depression, attention-deficit disorder or attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, or behavior or conduct disorder,” the report says, the percentage of each of these appears higher in the subset of adoptive children than in the general population.
My spoeculation is: It is not just the way the child reacts – that adoptive parents treat the children differently.
And that is so at least with regard to danger.
Hedda Nussbaum love dthe little girl that she had “adopted” with Joel Steinberg. But she could not bring herself to go away. Katie Holmes, who was a birth mother, separated from Tom Crtuise, in spite of the fact she’d stayed together all this time, because Suri Cruisew was about to be put into the Scientologist’s sea.org organization.
Time and time again, women will not save themselves, but will save thier children.
Provided that is, they are the natural mother of the children.
Is is so unreasonable to suppose that there are not other subtle differences as well?
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/27/2012 @ 2:30 pmAnother link or so:
http://www.adoptionhealing.com/ginni.html
Mental health professionals are surprised at the alarmingly high number of their patients who are adopted. Studies show an average of 25 to 35% of the young people in residential treatment centers are adoptees. This is 17 times the norm. (Lifton, BIRCO–Pannor and Lawrence)
Adoptees are more likely to have difficulties with drug and alcohol abuse, as well as, eating disorders, attention deficit disorder, infertility, suicide and untimely pregnancies. (Young, Bohman, Mitchell, Ostroff, Ansfield, Lifton and Schecter)
Adoptees are more likely to choose alternate lifestyles. (Ansfield and Lifton)
Alarmingly high numbers of adoptees are sent to disciplinary/correctional schools or are locked out of their homes [adoptive]. (Anderson and Carlson)
60 to 85% of the teens at Coldwater Canyon’s Center For Personal Development, are adopted. That is 30 to 40 times the norm. The center is a private acute-care psychiatric hospital/school in Southern California. (Ostroff)
50 to 70% of the teens at The Haven in New Trier Township, Illinois, are adopted. That is 25 to 35 times the norm. The Haven is a resource center for street kids. (Henderson)
So it is not irrelevant that James Eagan Holmes was adopted.
Coldness, distance? Too intellectual maybe.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/27/2012 @ 2:31 pmComment by DRJ — 7/25/2012 @ 6:33 pm
Anecdotes don’t tell us what happened in the Holmes’ household, but they do tell us that your assumptions aren’t always correct. But one thing we do know: The news reports indicate neither of the Holmes have abandoned their son. The reports portray Mrs. Holmes as expressing concern for her son, and state that Mr. Holmes flew to Colorado immediately after learning of his son’s arrest. Are those the actions of cold, uncaring adoptive parents?
Actually, that’s bad. It’s not really something to announce. When I said cold, I meant, intellectual, withouyt the right emotions. Of course it is the “proper” thing not to abandon someone.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/27/2012 @ 2:33 pmComment by htom — 7/25/2012 @ 6:11 pm
There may be such a relationship, but your assertion is insufficient to make the allegation.
There’s something subtle going on that shows up in the statistics.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/27/2012 @ 2:34 pmExamine the differences between these four groups:
children raised by birth parents
children raised by birth parents where foster care intervened
children raised by adoptive parents of children from birth parents
children raised by adoptive parents of children from foster care
I know adoptive parents and children (although I am not), and I know children and adults who went through foster care (the bad side of it.) I wonder if they’re not mistaking the group linkage.
htom (412a17) — 7/27/2012 @ 2:42 pm