Why Illegal Immigrants Killing People Is Especially Galling: An Observation
Let’s pretend that a man enters your house without your permission. Then he breaks one of your dinner plates.
When you complain, you are told: “What’s the big deal? You broke one of your dinner plates last month.”
You might say: “But this is different! I didn’t invite this guy into my house! And anyway, just entering my house without permission is a crime to begin with!”
Most people would understand this argument.
But when an illegal immigrant enters this country, and then does something wrong — like, say, killing somebody — the argument from illegal immigration supporters is always the same. They will ask: “Are illegal immigrants more likely than citizens to kill people?”
Here’s my answer.
I don’t care.
They’re not supposed to be here in the first place.
Here endeth the rant.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:12 pmCompletely agree. Should be a capital crime.
Kevin Stafford (1d1b9e) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:15 pmbefore you were talking about accidents now you’re talking about intentional evil-doings
es manzanas y naranjas
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:24 pmOur border patrol is told to run, hide, and worst case scenario, throw rocks when illegals/drug cartel members are shooting at them with AK-47’s. Meanwhile, our police officers are kicking in the wrong doors and shooting blindly at shadows in the night when dealing with our own citizens.
My only question is, why the hell would they want to come here in the first place? You’ve got a better chance surviving being a drug mule than you do living next door to someone who sells pot. At least the border patrol don’t shoot first.
Ghost (6f9de7) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:25 pmHappy feet,
Ghost (6f9de7) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:28 pmDid you miss the last part? They shouldn’t have been here in the first place.
I didn’t say he meant to break the plate, happy.
Go.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:28 pmsi yo comprendo but it’s still a different discussion I think
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:28 pmI think if illegal alien people are mucking about accidentally breaking plates then perhaps there are plate-breaking mitigation steps we can talk about taking
if illegal alien people are mucking about breaking plates on purpose then a discussion of mitigation is inappropriate as these are simply a plate-breaking people and they must be shot on sight
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:30 pmwe may come to find that some illegal aliens muck about and break plates on purpose whilst others only do so accidentally
that would add another layer of complexity
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:32 pmI have to go get a tasty salad now before my tasty salad place closes
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:32 pmfeets, stop being arrogant and stubborn, and make a point that defends or logically projects your side of this….
or, please, change your opinion….
respectfully,
reff (803186) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:38 pmreff
si yo comprendo but it’s still a different discussion I think
Comment by happyfeet — 7/13/2012 @ 9:28 pm
I think it’s part and parcel of the discussion. By claiming it’s a different discussion somewhat moves the goal posts.
He may have inadvertently dropped the plate. Accidents happen. But he did not have the right to be outside in the first place. Having not broken that law would have precluded him from ever entering the house and breaking a plate that belonged to someone else.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:40 pmMr. Feets – You forgot the part about the plate breaker, intentional or not, entering the house without permission, perhaps that was intentional on your part. Maybe we could talk about mitigation steps for that.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:41 pmI remember the phrase “root causes” being very big on the left about ten years ago. Any analogies here?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:48 pmYes, but the illegals are willing to break the plates Americans don’t want to break.
norcal (9d196b) — 7/13/2012 @ 9:53 pmPatterico – The obvious solution is to buy plastic tableware.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:02 pmok that was a tasty salad now I have to be up early and I am too exhausted to carry on and hold forth and such
what I will say to you is this and please to hear my speakings:
there’s a difference between being wrong and being evil, and the good lord, he counts on us to make an effort to distinguish between the two and act accordingly
it is wrong to break the immigration laws, but almost everybody does it why to make a better life for their families
in this way, the breaking of the immigration laws is so often an act of love and even courage
and that should beget a certain dignity in our treatment of them I think, because it is the act of someone noble of spirit
which is not to say they should not be sent home, but it would be far more respectful of their human dignity to guard the borders such that they were never able to enter in the first place
that is what a moral country would do I think
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:05 pmIllegal immigrant convicted of DUI and driving without a license kills a young high school girl when his SUV careens out of control. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/07/the-suv-did-it.php
sybilll (45f425) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:11 pmShe was sitting on the lawn of her high school for chrissake Mr Happy, and he had 2 prior offenses. Come on man, you’ve got to be kidding about morals.
Racists
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:17 pmMr. feets sometimes espouses curiously inconsistent philosophies with respect to our little country, I think. It’s a puzzlement.
elissa (143ab7) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:18 pmHere ringeth the Ding!
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:19 pmIf the person who burglarizes my home does so to make a better life for his family?
Meaning: if I lock my door, but my window can be jimmied open . . . it’s my fault.
I should do a better job of defending the borders of my home.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:19 pmYeah, that’s at my link in the post.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:20 pmthey’re not all miscreants Mr. P
I suspect, though I do not know for a fact, that they’re at least marginally less likely to be miscreants than our fellow Americans, and I say this because they came here because they want to be here, and to prosper here
unlike so so many of our food stamp swilling compatriots
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:22 pmThey are not all miscreants.
I am aware of plenty who are murderers, though.
None of which really addresses the point made in the post.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:27 pm“None of which really addresses the point made in the post.”
And I thought I was the only one who noticed.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:29 pmanchor babies. citizens. food stamp eligible. emergency care eligible. taxpayers pay.
elissa (143ab7) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:29 pmWe routinely, through our courts, allow drunks to kill on our roads.
Pogo was ever so correct.
Ed from SFV (3b0f25) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:31 pmMr. Frey could be on to something big here. We already have special circumstance statutes for hate crimes; why not extra penalties for committing a felony while being in the country illegally?
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:31 pmwhy not extra penalties for committing a felony while being in the country illegally?
good thinking! That would be a nice way to structure the law I think.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:32 pmI should do a better job of defending the borders of my home.
— You should get a dog that’s been trained to attack Rauhauser’s.
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:38 pm==why not extra penalties for committing a felony while being in the country illegally==
Fine. You will need a completely new and different justice department and also to outlaw sanctuary cities. You will need to be able to see people’s “papers” to determine their immigration status without being sued for discrimination. (See: Brewer, Jan) Other than that—
elissa (143ab7) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:39 pmIcy,
You may just be a genius.
This fits VERY well into the “Deport the Criminals First” concept — but with a law enforcement focus.
I like it.
I like it a LOT.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:42 pmBut why limit it to a felony?
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:42 pmWhy not make a misdemeanor a felony? And enhance the penalties for an existing felony?
We may be onto something big here.
Patterico (feda6b) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:43 pmwell see now you’re getting carried away a bit
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:44 pmI like my idea, mr feets. I think I will call it “La regla de una huelga”.
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:44 pmIcy, You may just be a genius.
— Well, thank you, sir. “But I’m no genius … or are I?*”
[*Homer Simpson]
Icy (b2418d) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:53 pmif you come into this country illegally, you are a criminal.
criminals need to be punished and crime prevented.
since prevention is cheaper than punishment, we should concentrate on keeping illegals, regardless of their source, out of the country.
first off, dry up the demand: charge and fine all the homeowners who wouldn’t have housekeepers, nannies, gardeners and all the other staff they currently do if they had to pay American wages, benefits and taxes to said staff. collect the back taxes and pay down the debt with them.
secondly, enforce loitering laws on street corners, parks, home improvement stores and anywhere else “day laborers” gather. anyone who comes up as illegal gets deported forthwith. Anyone who stops and solicits such help gets hit with a charge similar to soliciting prostitution. this dries up the supply.
third: illegals get zero benefits. none, zilch, nada, and, if they have an anchor baby, collect the kid’s fingerprints, retinal scans, dna sample, etc, and send him home with his parents to be raised in the loving arms of his family and their wonderful native culture. if they want to come back after they turn 18, they can apply at the local consulate for repatriation.
as for the particular problem in Mexico, where the gangs and the institutional governmental corruption make it impossible for the average person to get ahead, just do a similar id data collection of every adult over 18, then give them a half day block of instruction on the care and feeding of the AK-47, then drop them off in groups in their various home states with one, 7 loaded 30 round mags, some web gear and two canteens and tell them to take care of their own business on that side of the border, because if they cross ours again, they are unlawful combatants and, under the laws of land warfare, can be summarily executed as such.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/13/2012 @ 10:58 pm#23 Sorry Patterico, could have sworn I read the whole post and that story was not originally included. Horrifically sad nonetheless.
sybilll (45f425) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:03 pmRACIST!!!
:o9
Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master and CRIS Diagnostic Expert (8e2a3d) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:20 pmThe immigrants who love their families and deserve respect go to the trouble of coming here legally as my wife’s family did. The ones who cut in line and come here illegally are not people wanting to be Americans and join our communities, they are criminals without respect for our country or our laws.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:21 pmThese are not the people who built this country or who will make it better.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:22 pmThis is like saying that drug dealers and pimps are small businessmen and should be respected as civic leaders.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:23 pmBut the sad reality is that we already have all the laws we need. We just don’t have an administration willing to enforce them.
Gazzer (36ba5d) — 7/13/2012 @ 11:39 pmThere is some real pain behind this rant today, and I am sorry and deeply sympathize
EricPWJohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:51 amEveryone should have carpet on their floors to stop the plates from breaking. Or we should set up a training program at the border for plate handling classes. And if that doesn’t work they have guns from fast and furious to shoot the plate owners. Case solved.
mg (44de53) — 7/14/2012 @ 2:22 amour countries changing-the Ed Sullivan show used to feature plate spinners
pdbuttons (1ad69e) — 7/14/2012 @ 2:44 amand now we’ve come to this
If this country would round up all the crimaliens, the job market would improve, wages would increase and the country would be safer. No more programs for these border dwellers. How about programs for citizens of America who have lost their jobs to cut rate illegal trespassers, I mean plate breakers.
mg (44de53) — 7/14/2012 @ 3:04 amThis is a new standard for missing the point. “if I had to feed another person” vs. economics. Ask Alabama farmers how the attacks on migrant workers is going.
Jamie (ee4a20) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:37 amTo my mind the only argument against enforcement and reform (in that order) of the immigration laws is that Mexico’s second (or third, depending on who’s doing the stats) source of wealth is money sent ‘home’ from the U.S.. Now, take that away, and what happens? I suspect that successive Administrations have soft-peddled enforcement because they don’t want to find out. Mexico has been tottering on the brink of collapse for decades, and when it goes completely it’s likely to be a mess. A mess that will undoubtedly spill across the border and affect us. Historically, the only solution to such a problem that has any track record of working has been conquest, which is off the table for a variety of political reasons.
I think the strongest argument against non-enforcement of the immigration laws is the way that it creates a large sub-culture in economic and legal limbo. This is unfair to the immigrants; it leads directly to their exploitation. It also creates a population that is unlikely to cooperate with authorities looking for genuine threats such as terrorist cells. In short the existence of an illegal population within out borders is nothing but trouble for everybody but those who would exploit them economically or politically. Such exploiters are the scum of the earth, and I specifically include the race-pimps who claim to be on the side of the immigrants.
C. S. P. Schofield (df34af) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:02 amComment by redc1c4 — 7/13/2012 @ 10:58 pm
Do it for the children!
Amy Shulkusky (67fbd5) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:31 amIllegal immigrants’ misconduct or mishaps that result in pain and suffering to legal residents and citizens is incremental. It does not replace other such events by legal residents and citizens, it increases the actual number of them.
If those immigrants who are the trigger for those events were not here, those events would not have happened.
They create incremental risks not just because their existence represents additional risk creators, but they create slightly different risks due to the nature of their entry. They arrive already breaking the law in an ongoing and continuous manner which creates an acceptance of that lawbreaking in their own minds and in their own communities. That works against society’s need that its members mostly comply with the law.
This is not to say there are not positive effects created also. Some overcome the above effect and the only laws they ignore are the immigration laws, Some contribute very meaningfully to our society. But on balance I believe the overall effect is significantly negative.
We could achieve a larger balance of those positive affects by creating a better immigration system that allowed in the ones that will shift the balance to positive and remove the big initial lawbreaker mindset from the bulk.
Dan S (eccbb9) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:38 amfirst off, dry up the demand: charge and fine all the homeowners who wouldn’t have housekeepers, nannies, gardeners and all the other staff…
Lots of people say this. But this is not how the law works.
A man comes to you because you have a job to offer. You ask for his driver’s license and social security card. The documents might look fake–or they might have someone else’s name and he has complicated reason for why. It seems clear to you he is likely illegal, so—
If you refuse to hire him, and he complains, the Federal government will sue you for discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, and you will have to prove to the satisfaction of a court that you gave all applicants’ documents the same scrutiny. However, if you accept his documents, no matter how obviously bogus, Title VII gives you immunity from this lawsuit.
You do not wish to be sued so you accept the documents and submit his SSN for verification as you are supposed to, and in the meantime he goes to work. And SSA says there’s no such number, or the number is not associated with his name.
If, at this point, you fire him, and he complains, the Federal government will sue you for discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, and you will have to prove to the satisfaction of a court that you treated all employees in a similar situation in the same way. However, if you allow him to work, Title VII gives you immunity from this lawsuit.
The most you can do, without being exposed to a discrimination lawsuit, is ask the employee to contact SSA to sort it out.
It’s very easy to say, punish people who hire illegals. But Title VII is interpreted so that people who refuse to hire illegals may be sued for discrimination, and people who do hire illegals are immune from these lawsuits.
In other words, the government has been subverting the intent of these laws for years.
Gabriel Hanna (77de18) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:44 amSome documents from USCIS and the Justice Department setting out the policies I indicated above.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-274.pdf
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/osc/pdf/publications/SSA/FAQs.pdf
These are the people who will be suing you:
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/osc/
This is not a new thing, or an Obama thing. I do not know how to find out how long it has been going on.
Gabriel Hanna (77de18) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:05 amEven if you are participating in E-Verify, you cannot refuse to hire people who get flagged as not being authorized to work!
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/osc/pdf/publications/e_verifydosanddonts.pdf
Gabriel Hanna (77de18) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:07 amI like Icy’s legal suggestion, and we’re going to need it now that the Obama Administration has effectively disarmed the border patrol.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:29 amIllegal aliens are breaking the law and either taking a job from a citizen, exploiting our social safety net, or engaged in criminal enterprise, or some combination of activities detrimental to our country.
Either we control our borders or we lose our identity as an independent nation. Acquiescence to illegal immigration is a one-way street to the rule of the mob, the loss of self-determination, and the devolution of individual rights.
ropelight (ad3cc9) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:34 am________________________________________________
Here endeth the rant.
To me, the ultimate kick in the face — the one thing that spooks and exasperates me more (much more) than anything else — is that this issue is closely intertwined with the following:
This study doesn’t even detail the way these particular trends apparently continue generation after generation. Therefore, the US is facing a bright, brilliant, wonderful, beautiful future.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:13 amIn some states, any accident in which one party does not have proper insurance coverage as required by law is, regardless of any other facts of the case considered the fault of that party.
If an uninsured driver gets T-boned from the side by someone running a red light at twice the speed limit, the accident is still charged to the uninsured driver.
Why? Because it’s illegal for that car to even be there, and if it isn’t, there’s no accident. QEfriggingD.
The Monster (a4552b) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:38 amWake up! We have been invaded. Both Dems & Repubs want illegal immigration. See the below letter that I wrote to California Lawyer magazine, which it declined to publish.
letters_callaw@dailyjournal.com [August, 14, 2008]
Letter to the Editor:
Thomas Brom’s “Let Them In, Over Taken By Events – O-B-E” [California Lawyer, August 2008] is spin. Spin out of control. First, America already generously Let’s Them In, granting legal resident status and naturalized citizenship every year, to about 2.5 million immigrants. Significantly more than any other nation.
Second, Mr. Brom’s “Let Them In” theme reminded me of the callous quip about a woman getting raped: “Hey, why fight it, just sit back, relax and enjoy it.” That theory’s a non-starter, readily proven again by the 1993 rape, then murder, of Jennifer Ertman (14) and Elizabeth Pena (16), by illegal alien gang member Jose Ernesto Medellin (now 33). Texas just executed him. More recent, there’s SF’s triple murder of the Bologna family in June 2008, LA’s murder of Jamiel Shaw, Jr., in March 2008, and Newark’s execution-style murders of three college students in August 2007. (Illustrative, not exhaustive.) All the product of insane sanctuary city policies coddling and harboring convicted criminal illegal aliens. City, county, state and fed officials all have blood on their hands.
Third, Mr. Brom’s piece referred to three books advocating open borders, published in 2007-8. I call Mr. Brom and raise him: Michelle Malkin’s Invasion (2002), Victor Davis Hanson’s Mexifornia: A State of Becoming (2003) and Pat Buchanan’s State of Emergency (2006).
Fourth, what happened to – the Rule of Law? That America is a nation of laws, not men. That no man is above the law, and that’s what separates America from the rest of the world. Let them in? Open borders? Strange arguments coming from a lawyers’ magazine, but guess we’re just living in the world of Superman Bizarro.
Fifth, we have not been O-B-E, but in fact have had decades of deceit, denial, dysfunction and dereliction of duty (maybe by design NAFTA, NAU, SPP), from all three branches of our federal government. Example: Plyler v. Doe, 457 US 202 (1982), a 5/4 Brennan opinion that admitted the fed’s total failure on illegal immigration, flew in the face of Fong Yu Ting (cited in Brom’s piece, but curiously absent from Plyler), opened the floodgates (see fnt. 2 in Plyler dissent, estimating 3-12 million illegal aliens as of 1981), and denied Texas the natural law remedy of self help. Then California’s Prop 187, torpedoed by a single federal judge. Example: the 1986 bi-partisan Simpson-Mizzoli bill that graciously gave amnesty to 3 million+ illegal aliens, and promised American citizens that it would be – a one-time fix. Can you say Shamnesty? Because that was a fraud, fixed nothing and spawned another 12-20 million+ illegals. Example: the recent 5/4 USSC opinions of Boumediene v. Bush and Dada v. Mukasey, foolishly giving more rights and opening further our courts, to terrorist combatants and illegals, thus making even longer ques for Americans to use their own courts. (See “[Fed] Circuit Judges Decry Immigration Case ‘Tsunami’” by Tony Mauro, 8/12/08 Legal Times and “New Nightmare Census Projections Reveal CHAIN MIGRATION Still Choking Our Future” by Roy Beck, 8/14/08 NumbersUSA.) Example: The dereliction of Presidents Carter to G.W. Bush on this issue, most notably their failure to prosecute cheating employers who hire illegals and refuse to use E-Verify.
Separation of powers, the so-called checks & balances? Phooey! The Rule of Law? Phooey! We are trillions in debt, yet the politicos and judges never ask, who or how we will pay for their frolics. We get the shaft from all three branches, plus we get to pay the “check” for the actually not so cheaper labor. The same is true for too many state, county and city governments/officials (sanctuary cities); the media (Mr. Brom’s own “It’s why an editor… may choose to bury a story rather than put it on the front page.”); and, the big corp bandits & pirates (that out-source American jobs, hire the illegals and push for more H-1B visas to in-source more foreign workers). The Dems want more voters; the Repubs (and US Chamber of Commerce) want cheap labor. It can be argued, we are well down the road to anarchy. (See HBO’s “The Second Civil War” (1997).) But the Will of the People has always been clear: STOP IT! Most recently rising up to stop the bogus bi-partisan “comprehensive” shamnesty bill. Yet all ever required was leadership and integrity. To simply apply reason, enforce our existing laws, and follow the advice of Deputy Barney Fife (of Andy of Mayberry): “Nip it. Nip it. Nip it in the bud.” The situation then would have been – the problem that never was.
But that takes courage. Instead, our politicos have chosen to pick the low hanging fruit, and to come up with one scam, scheme and bogus compromise, after another. We must look in the mirror. We must ask: Are we still capable of governing ourselves? Because at present, America has no real Rule of Law – with 12-20 million illegal aliens, it would be foolish to argue otherwise. Fact is, everything has been reduced to politics. Because if baseball used to be America’s pastime, it can be readily argued that today, our pastime now is – lying, cheating, stealing & spin. And it’s everywhere. And it’s destroying our American constitution, country, communities, culture and courts. And it’s killing us.
Open borders – NO! Enforce our laws – YES! Si se puede!
___________________________________
My name is Gary L. Zerman. … I am a licensed California attorney. You have my permission to print/publish my above letter. GLZ.
____________________________________
California Lawyer called me after I submitted my letter to confirm that I was the author and advised they were considering publishing it; they eventually elected not to publish the letter.
Here is the link to “LET THEM IN – Three New Books Argue That Open Borders Serve The National Interest” by Thomas Brom, from his monthly column “Full Disclosure”, August 2008 issue California Lawyer Magazine. http://www.callawyer.com/index.cfm?NewIssueDate=08-01-08
– end –
gzerman (b163fe) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:45 amTragic:
http://bejohngalt.com/2012/07/a-tale-of-two-immigrants/
Dustyn H (e17fcc) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:12 amI don’t necessarily disagree with you, but a modification to the hypothetical:
Let’s pretend that historically you’d trumpeted your house as a place where people could come to make a life for themselves.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:19 amEmotionally it feels worse when someone like that commits a crime against you because in additional to the normal feelings of violation of your person, you feel let down by your government. Maybe the person might have got in anyway by legal process but in this case it would feel as if the government had been doing its job, the person would not have been here in the first place.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:24 amIn California, the largest increase in illegal immigration is from Asia. There are a lot of people from China and India, for example, who arrive on a legitimate visa and just stay. Mexicans illegals are actually leaving according to several articles I have read. One in the Sacramento Bee showed something like 10,000 or 20,000 fewer illegals in that area.
We do need immigration but only when we have a growing economy. We have a President who appears to be doing whatever he can to do the maximum possible economic damage. Right NOW we don’t need any or much immigration. Until we have jobs for them, there is no reason for them to come, really. But once we do, they are a rather vital part of the economy.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:33 amI think the politicians are leaving the borders porous for three reasons. First, and simplist, they are being bribed to do so. Second, garnering illegal voters.
Third, to increase crime in the US to increase support for things like having to show papers, gun control, militarization of the police, increasing power of the police, etc.
Oddly, several extremely wealthy individuals support the third point. Including one individual who helped the SS gather jews for the gas chambers in exchange for not being killed and for a share of the loot. He somehow skipped out before the Germans were able to properly show their appreciation for his help. Too bad, that.
Phillep Harding (1b8b26) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:36 amCrosspatch, I think people from places like China and India can create an economy. They have the skill sets and attitude that lets them find the loop holes and weak points in the over and mis regulation causing the current hard times here in the US. They, unfortunately, do not have the attitudes needed to break us off the path to tyranny.
Phillep Harding (1b8b26) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:48 amComment by Leviticus @ 8:19 am
How about “When your grandfather owned the house 50 years ago, he used to let strangers come in and break plates all the time.”
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:54 amfeets! no me das la enfermedad!
Colonel Haiku (8e32bd) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:02 amcon todos estos mexicanos aquí, ¿por qué usted no puede conseguir ninguna buena comida mexicana en mi ciudad?
Colonel Haiku (8e32bd) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:06 amColonel: Obama unqualified on teh economy “as a hole”…
Colonel Haiku (8e32bd) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:10 amThis overall question of the post becomes almost moot when a death occurs and the local authorities refuse from the get-go to check on immigrant status of the one behind the wheel. Why don’t other drivers have the right to be protected, first and foremost? Just as legal voters should have their right to a safe and secure vote – before anyone else, so should the legal drivers of our state be protected at all costs. Find out who is legally permitted to drive/vote, and protect our citizens. Why is that so difficult? We have become disenfranchised in our own home.
The driver of the pickup, Juan Tzun Lopez, 24, of Riverside, is being investigated for vehicular manslaughter without negligence, said Officer Steve Carapia, spokesman for the Highway Patrol’s Riverside office. Lopez is not licensed to drive, Carapia said.
Upon being repeatedly questioned about it, the Public Safety reporter for the newspaper replied,
The CHP told me that they would not be checking his immigration status. Also, he has never held a California driver’s license.
The article adds this,
The driver of the truck that killed the Sheriff’s Dispatcher is not licensed to drive – and has never been licensed to drive.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:14 amAt which point you will be deemed a racist, and you lose the argument. See how that works?
G Joubert (073082) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:26 am_____________________________________________
We do need immigration but only when we have a growing economy.
In general terms, regardless of the particulars of a nation’s economy, I think a society will do better in the long run if it both comprises and attracts a lot of talented, skilled (and socially stable and reliable) people.
I’ve heard some observers (mostly of the left, but a fair share of those on the right too) rationalize away the controversy of illegal immigration by claiming that many “undocumented” immigrants don’t exactly sit around all day eating bon bons and watching daytime TV. Those commentators sometimes cite the hand-to-mouth, long-hours existence of much of the populace in nations like Mexico.
In broad terms, such observations are correct. But people who push that meme then fail to note that basic industriousness — of and by itself — doesn’t necessarily translate into a better, enviable society.
The following hints at how the synergy of this country’s economy will be negatively impacted if too much of the populace not only doesn’t take seriously the role of basic education, but then shrugs at the idea (or reality) of students treating schools lightly — if not also cynically or disdainfully — and, worse of all, casually dropping out before completing, say, the 10th grade.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:29 amAdding to the fact that said “drivers” have never been tested on rules of the road or had a vision test in order to be legally licensed as safe to be behind the wheel in this country, many of said drivers can not read English and are therefore unable to understand the content of road signs and digital warning/info banners that identify construction zones, detours, and emergency instructions.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:36 amI just wish the a-hole open borders crowd would spend a day attempting to illegally enter Mexico on its souther border with Guatemala.
Elephant Stone (65d289) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:43 ams/b “southern border”
Elephant Stone (65d289) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:44 amThe United States has a long, rich history of hating its most recent immigrants. It’s sad to see that trend continue.
tye (f09274) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:08 amWonder which piece of Patterico’s post tye is objecting to or believes is untrue. Of course that assumes he even bothered to read it. It’s so much simpler for him to jump on a thread with his pre-recorded talking points and insinuate that people are xenophobes and racists.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:23 amI don’t necessarily disagree with you, but a modification to the hypothetical:
Let’s pretend that historically you’d trumpeted your house as a place where people could come to make a life for themselves.
Comment by Leviticus — 7/14/2012 @ 8:19 am
Nice try. Yes, we’ve always trumpeted our house as a place where people from all over could make a life for themselves, however, for the last 100+ years we have also had laws and a process on the books regarding legal/illegal entry. So, whether or not we are at the moment checking to see if anyone is coming across and/or doing anything about it, it does not change the fact that there is a willful choice being made to break the law . Thus, the onus remains on the entrant not to break the law.
And, one cannot plead ignorance to said laws. If there was claimed ignorance (Oh, I thought we could come into your house at any time because your welcome sign is out 24/7), one just has to ask why there are so many successful coyotes making thousands of dollars off individuals who typically cross in the dead of night, in the middle of nowhere?
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:25 am“The United States has a long
,richhistory ofhatinghaving to contend with its most recent illegal immigrants. It’swould be refreshingsadto seethat trend continuethem stopped at the border.”FIFY TYENA
Colonel Haiku (8e32bd) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:28 amhey now woo look at that
did she nearly run you down?
at the end of the drive the lawmen arrive
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:28 amLol Dana, You have made me look at the jute mat at our front door that says “WELCOME”, with new awareness and possible concern!
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:29 ambienvenidos!
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:30 amhey ho julio my momma gave me that plate for mah birfday
oh now you gon get it
yeah you better run
run yo ass back to mexico
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:33 amhey feets… it’s nice to see you’ve eschewed the Socratic method with doin’ teh dozens… or las decenas.
Colonel Haiku (8e32bd) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:44 am___________________________________________
don’t necessarily disagree with you, but a modification to the hypothetical:
Your so-called modification comes very close to reminding me of those who say the impact on a victim of a burglary or robbery needs to be qualified because he had the audacity (the chutzpah! the nerve! the gall!) to drive around in a nice-looking car or because he lived in a nice-looking house. I won’t extend the analogy to the comments of those people who try to equate the way that a woman dresses with whether she’s become a victim of rape or not.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:47 amThe United States has a long, rich history of hating its most recent immigrants. It’s sad to see that trend continue.
Comment by tye — 7/14/2012 @ 10:08 am
— Johnny One-Note strikes again.
Icy (b2418d) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:47 amThe United States has a long, rich history of hating its most recent immigrants. It’s sad to see that trend continue.
Then you should stop hating them, Tye.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:49 amit is easy to spot the illegal drivers on the LA freeways:
they drive no faster than 55, no matter what the area is posted for, and, if you are at an on-ramp where the sign says either “2” or “3” cars per green meter light, they will still go only one at a time.
the other way to tell them is when they hit your car and just keep driving.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:51 amThe United States has a long, rich history of hating its most recent immigrants.
And this doesn’t even make sense: long history of recent immigrants.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:51 amYes, it does. Irish, Chinese, Polish … they, as a collective, have all been “recent” immigrants at one point in our history. Each group has been hated by political conservatives. Now you hate Mexicans. Circle continues… shameful.
tye (f09274) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:57 ami heart mexicans and me I am a very staunch far-right-wing conservative not unlike Ann Coulter or Ted Nugent
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:03 ampeas in a frickin pod
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:03 am“Lol Dana, You have made me look at the jute mat at our front door that says “WELCOME”, with new awareness and possible concern!”
elissa – You might consider changing it to “My neighbors support open border, go break their plates, not mine.”
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:03 amtye clearly does not want anyone to address the serious content of Patterico’s post. tye wants only to talk about what he wants to talk about (or what he is being paid to talk about). As has been pointed out, I’m a glass-half-full kind of optimist–and I think today may be the day we say bye bye to tye tye.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:07 am96- he isn’t writing what we think he should write! Ban him!
tye (f09274) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:15 amThe United States has a long, rich history of hating its most recent immigrants.
Then don’t be a h8ter, Tye! Remember, you are the change we’ve been waiting for! The change begins with you! Hope and Change!
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:18 amYou can do it, Tye!
___________________________________________
Each group has been hated by political conservatives.
In your honor — as a big shout-out and salute to you — I hereby post the following:
^ Well, if liberals are bigoted, ‘ya gotta hand it to them that they at least have the advantage of being full of common sense. [snerk]
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:18 amIf they were only coming here to break plates accidentally, it would be good for the plate makers. jobs, jobs, jobs.
mg (44de53) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:20 amtye – The Democrat Party has a long, rich history of hating black people.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:24 amTye:
The Irish, Chinese and Polish immigrants did so legally during a time when America/USA craved extra workers. Now, we don’t. The extra workers are displacing workers born here.
Don’t give me junk about “jobs Americans won’t do:” My brother is a native/USA born carpenter. That sector is primarily native-born in the his area, and almost exclusively hispanic immigrant in the southeast. Buildings were constructed before the wave of immigration.
Political Conservative is NOT a static group. Bull Collor was a Democrat and Conservative. Conservative being a class of folks tradition-bound and dedicated to existing mores. Plenty of progressives were pro-eugenics, while present day conservatives hate the idea. Translation:You DO NOT get to equate the anti-Irish sentiment to the anti-illegal immigrant sentiment. Don’t try to “travel me back in time” and assume I’d be a racist. That’s just bigoted. I don’t care about color and culture. I care if laws are broken. Latinos and other folks who are here legally and obey laws are an excellent additions to the culture.
The least — absolute least we can expect of tresspassers is that the follow ALL the other laws! Get a license, insurance and register your car. Stop breaking Pat’s dishes.
ukuleledave (5f2a17) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:24 amWhy should he amend an accurate statement? What a strange request. Weird. Perhaps you should amend that question. beef.
Ag80 (b2c81f) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:38 ampilot ep 0.00 That’s Our Julio
[doorbell]
Peter Bannister [opens door]: oh hi Julio! Long time no see!
Julio: Yes gringo my understanding is you have bought some dessert plates?
Peter Bannister: oh you scamp you always seem to know how do you do that?
Julio: It is a secret of my people I cannot tell.
Peter Bannister: That’s ok Julio… mi amigo [winks]… honey? Julio’s here he heard about the … platos de desserto!
Alice Bannister: Well don’t just leave him on the doorstep invite him in! [Julio enters, Alice embraces him warmly] This way this way would you like some coffee?
Julio: No thank you gringa … solamente los platos I think today.
Alice Bannister: Well don’t let me prattle on you know where the plates- [SMASH SMASH SMASH SMASH] are
Peter Bannister: He sure does honey … look at him go!
Julio: Gracia gringos I will see you later – hey – is that apple pie?
Alice and Peter Billingsley: [together] That’s our Julio!
[open credits roll]
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:39 amspple pie! no platas! eating pie with your finners is sticky and icky. julio should have thought of that!
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:43 amand who are the billingsleys?
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:44 amthey’re America’s favorite new tv couple elissa in this Seinfeldian comedy from the folks who brought you “Over the River and Through the Desert”
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:49 amthen who are the bannisters? and why do the bannister couple and the billingsley couple have the same first names? this pilot episode has some real flaws imo.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:53 amoh crap good catch
somebody get me re-write
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:55 amthat may be why ABC passed on us
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 11:55 amwho poses the greater threat to traffic safety – illegal immigrants – or… the Kennedy clan?
This is NOT a trick question.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:05 pm“This is like saying that drug dealers and pimps are small businessmen and should be respected as civic leaders.”
– Machinist
Due respect, Machinist, but no. It’s not.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:05 pmhappyfeet’s making good points, I think.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:07 pmSeriously, feets has screen writer in the blood.
And another insight: I think by now I’d recognize tyena on the street–by the chancre on the fore top.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:07 pm112. Women’s health, moreover.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:08 pmQuestion: what does it mean to be an American? Not a citizen – an American.
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:11 pmpart of it involves wanderlust I do believe
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:20 pm“Due respect, Machinist, but no. It’s not.”
Leviticus – But the drug dealers and pimps are here trying to prosper and make a better life for themselves which fits the noble part of happyfeets’ story. The respect part, not so much.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:22 pmi said for their families – you know – like you would do if you were luckless enough to have been born in the accursed land of mexico
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:24 pm“i said for their families”
Mr. Feets – It’s really a very noble Willie Sutton thing I think.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:26 pmi heart mexicans and me I am a very staunch far-right-wing conservative not unlike Ann Coulter or Ted Nugent
I love Americans and don’t care about their race, creed or color. I h8te me teh people who divide Americans along “class”, racial, creed or color lines.
Entonces, Mexico por teh Mexicans!
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:28 pmand one half of my extended family are Americans of Mexican heritage.
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:29 pmQuestion: what does it mean to be an American? Not a citizen – an American.
I used to think that it meant that above all things you prioritized liberty. In the age of Obama, I am no longer sure.
JVW (edec8d) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:32 pmI h8te chalupas
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:34 pmbut loves me some burritos
and barbacoa
i said goddam them
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:36 pmsaid goddam them all to Hell
teh democrat mens
I love Americans
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:38 pmbut h8te me some democrats!
you know kind I mean
What does it mean to be an American?
It can mean someone who is from the Western Hemisphere, as in someone from North or South America, or someone who is a citizen of the United States of America. Which do you mean?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:38 pmColonel – My family are also American of various heritages.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:40 pmWho started the “jobs Americans won’t do thingie?” Does anybody remember how or when that depressing and inaccurate meme started to become commonplace in the media and began to be unquestioned and just accepted as truth?
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:42 pm___________________________________________
this pilot episode has some real flaws imo.
But happyfeet does have the potential to create award-winning programming, sort of like this. I see an Emmy in his future.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:47 pm130. I remember W. using it when running up the trial amnesty balloon. Might not have been original but he beat a retreat similar to Perry’s “heartless” just not as pitably.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:49 pmElissa, I am afraid that it was one of our own, George W. Bush, who started that stupid meme. You are right, it’s demeaning to think that Americans won’t clean hotel rooms, wash dishes, or operate carwashes. Of course they will, but they don’t want to do it for 60 hours/week at $6 per hour. Not when it is so easy to get foodstamps and welfare or go on disability.
JVW (edec8d) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:51 pmYes, it does. Irish, Chinese, Polish … they, as a collective, have all been “recent” immigrants at one point in our history. Each group has been hated by political conservatives. Now you hate Mexicans. Circle continues… shameful.
Comment by tye — 7/14/2012 @ 10:57 am
— Playing the same card over and over again, regardless of circumstance, is what experienced players refer to as a “tell”.
Icy (b2418d) — 7/14/2012 @ 12:59 pmAmerican – not Cherokee
mg (44de53) — 7/14/2012 @ 1:09 pmRight, and pot smokers are breaking the law. Aren’t laws most effective when they fight something that actually hurts people?
Alan Kellogg (297baa) — 7/14/2012 @ 1:25 pmJVW,
I don’t think it was Bush 43 who started the “jobs Americans won’t do” meme. This Chicago Tribune article dated January 5, 1995, shows people were already using that phrase in the early 1990’s:
But I agree George W. Bush seems to have embraced this false concept. I always thought Bush was channeling Pauline Kael.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 1:27 pmExpanding the reach and scope of Teh State and dependency on same…
UPDATE: Feds scrap Spanish soaps peddling food stamps…
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/13/usda-removes-spanish-food-stamp-soap-operas-from-website/
Colonel Haiku (9ad191) — 7/14/2012 @ 1:31 pm#112 Happyfeet Yes, the much-adored kennedy dynasty. Pray tell, why? Who sold us on that bill of goods? Funny how The Chicago Way played such a big role in JFK’s election. Of course Dick Nixon didn’t much cry about it. I think he was correct when he told the press they wouldn’t have him to kick around anymore. In the sense that the media gave him a hard time well prior to his eventual successful Presidential run. I voted for Wallace, given the animosity I felt from Philly-area blacks at the time. Had a grand time putting Wallace bumper stickers on cars of blacks.
Calypso Louis Farrakhan (e799d8) — 7/14/2012 @ 1:44 pmSo one wonders how things will be played out. Will Hillary ever be Potus? Somehow that lying sack of spit is deemed the most popular political figure? Will Urkel’s admirers be elated if he is either re-elected or declares martial law/suspension of elections/starts war with Iran? Will there be a push to give him endless terms in office? US troops training in urban St.Louis? crickets. Media doesn’t care about that. Fast and Furious? Yawn.
I guess the Kennedys remain deities to the Massachusetts populace and Teddy forever the liberal lion of the Senate but still amused by http://fatboy.cc
“It can mean someone who is from the Western Hemisphere, as in someone from North or South America, or someone who is a citizen of the United States of America. Which do you mean?”
– DRJ
I mean, what are the qualities that make a person an American rather than “a person who lives in the United States”? What qualities do we want to see in Americans?
Leviticus (102f62) — 7/14/2012 @ 2:19 pm137. W. had his detractions, e.g., judgement of men, but he was an honest man.
I’d give long odds Willard will make as good a President.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 2:49 pmGary
Its silly to think, wish, hope, or even waste breath on the t prospect of a ROmnney presidency. Anyone else would be leading a landslide against Obama but Romney.
Best just to concentrate on the congress
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:04 pmNo one here hates immigrants, tye. We do, however, hate criminals.
Tell us all why you think it’s bad to hate criminals.
Chuck Bartowski (99415f) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:09 pmLeviticus,
There are a lot of qualities I would like to see in Americans but the main quality is that they are law-abiding. The key to an orderly society is a law-abiding population, because there will never be enough law enforcement agents to force everyone to obey society’s rules if we don’t do it voluntarily.
IMO the key to a law-abiding population is the widespread perception that the rules apply to everyone equally. I’m sure you realize this but the immigration “rules” — especially as envisioned by liberals and as applied by the Obama Administration — don’t apply to everyone equally.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:18 pmMr. Romney is doing an admirable job staying focused on economic matters.
He’s doing an abysmally crappy job though going about earning a mandate to take the kinds of actions our pathetic little country desperately needs to be taken.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:18 pmHF
The sooner we move on the better chances we have to control congress
Obama appeals to an electorate that has not availed themselves of the American dream
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:23 pmsure, but, you know
tick tock
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:24 pm“Anyone else would be leading a landslide against Obama but Romney.”
EricPW – Anyone Else did not make it out of the primaries so it’s the height of silliness to advance such unsupported assertions.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:24 pmgary gulrud,
I think George W. Bush was a very good national security President. He was weak on immigration, as Texas politicians who embrace the Dallas model often are.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:25 pmI think Mitt Romney has the potential to be a very good President. He has the character and the experience to be a good leader. The big question is who he will choose as advisers, but there are reasons to believe he is secure enough to pick competent people.
Too many Presidents pick weak advisers because they aren’t secure enough to pick real leaders who will challenge them. That was actually one of George W. Bush’s strengths. He wasn’t afraid to pick advisers who were strong and who held strong opinions.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:28 pmericpw–don’t even waste our time and yours calling people “silly” and parroting polls which for the most part are incorrectly weighted for current conditions if one knows how to read crosstabs. The R. “landslide” hopefully comes in Nov. when votes are cast in the privacy of the voting booth. There is no sane reason at this point “just to concentrate on the congress” as (for some reason) you’d like us to do.
DRJ, gary, and JFW–thank you for responding to and researching my “jobs Americans won’t do” question while I was out having fun in the sun.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:30 pmDaley
Romney has zero point zero chance
The only path obama had to reelection was a Romney nomination. And now are chances whichbefore mitt were closing in on 100% to take the Senate have dropped significantly
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:30 pmelissa,
I’m glad you’ve been having fun in the sun. It’s so hot and humid where I live that it’s even too hot to swim.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:34 pmThe inane hyper-quintessentially ruling class pompousness of the decision by Romney-doppleganger John Roberts disillusioned me to where whatever hopes I really had for Mitt are gone daddy gone.
It will take a long long time for me to become illusioned again.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:34 pmSeveral years ago here in Minneapolis the StarTribune (the RedStar) ran a similar article asking “Do illegal immigrants have a higher crime rate than legal immigrants?” I wrote a letter to the editor basically saying “Yes, they do. They have a 100% crime rate because, well, they’re here illegally.” To my surprise they actually published it.
jlomcast.net (fb346e) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:35 pmThat is a surprise, jlomcast.net. Did your letter get any response?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:36 pmElissa
Romney has other things to defend. Its a shooting gallery, and his nominating process was aided by a lefty press rather than a Msg
No one is going to rally to his flag.
He has wasted months being so off Msg and actually not having one that people think hes still a slick operator not a president
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:38 pmDrj
We have airconditioned water in our swimming pools in Jakarta and in Doha (did)
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:41 pmEPWJ–your own contribution then to restoring some semblance of sanity and order in the United States is to discourage and pooh pooh anyone else who might see another option, and instead you will just blithely allow Barack Obama to be re-elected without even a fight because supporting Romney is too haaaaard. I call BS on that. I see your true colors shining through.
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:49 pmWe could have used a little of that today, Eric.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:50 pm“Romney has zero point zero chance”
EricPW – With your record of honesty and accuracy on this blog, I don’t give what you say much credence.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 4:52 pmmittens has to have christe, for attack dog purposes. The jersey pumpkin enjoys the cameras and puts winey reporters in their place.
mg (44de53) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:08 pmDRJ: I don’t think you want airconditioned water. I think that just means Perrier.
Simon Jester (b3cc80) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:13 pmThe subject of this thread is about criminal deeds done by illegal immigrants and I don’t want to contribute to a threadjack. But since a commenter here is pushing nonsense– claiming the utter hopelessness of the Romney campaign— I offer the following read for anyone who maintains an open mind. Yesterday, Jim Geraghty at the National Review took on Pew by asking why so many pollsters oversample democrats and he documented the long history of them doing so–
After being wrong in the same direction so consistently, wouldn’t you think that Pew might attempt to adjust their sampling techniques to avoid under-sampling Republican voters? Keep in mind the polls I have highlighted are the last polls in the race. I find it interesting that not one of their poll statisticians came out and said, ‘Boss, these results look whacked out because the electorate is going to be more than 24 percent Republican, and self-identified Democrats aren’t going to outpace Republicans by 9 percentage points.’ The Democrats couldn’t even reach that margin in 2008 . . . and you wonder why so many people think Obama is going to win. Didn’t Einstein once say the definition of insanity was “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. So I ask are the people at Pew insane or just biased?
elissa (73f164) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:21 pmBy simply walking down the street I can present all sorts of societal harm. Why, a motorist could run into me, causing damage to his car requiring expensive repairs.
Ban walking, save the American car!
Alan Kellogg (297baa) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:33 pm__________________________________________
EricPW – With your record of honesty and accuracy on this blog, I don’t give what you say much credence.
Not sure if he’s a closeted liberal or extremely squishy “centrist.” He may be very similar to a person I was reading about a few days ago (I think it was a federal judge appointed by Bush Sr—or something like that), who said in an interview that today’s Republican Party (and presumably anything a bit right of center) had been taken over by ideologues.
This from a person residing in an era when in order to be a good “centrist,” one must be increasingly supportive of same-sex marriage, supportive of a slightly (just slightly) watered-down version of Obamacare, concerned about the environmental impact of the stuff we breathe out every few seconds (ie, carbon dioxide), and tolerant of an amount of illegal immigration that would make the head spin of people back in the 1950s, when even the program to forcibly remove the so-called undocumented at that time — implemented under Dwight Eisenhower — was labeled the very, very non-PC title of “Operation Wetback.”
Yea, uh-huh, Republicans and the right side of the socio-political spectrum in 2012 are so, so dogmatic, so very extreme. Yep, uh-huh.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 5:50 pmThank you, Elissa. EPWJ is a concern troll; just look at his history. He did stand up for Patterico, and that’s in his favor. But his history says it all. Not to be taken seriously.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:00 pmSimon
They are going to keep Romney off Msg. He has other problems, that Iagree are not real problems, but to the mildly unmotivatable voter……
He’s not scoring
Mitt and his staff think that this unemotional campaign could generate the momentum to win this is just not going anywhere
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:19 pm152. “The only path obama had to reelection was a Romney nomination.”
Fair as far as it goes. But from one spouting such froth, that was an “events remaining as they were” in linear, gradual decline.
Today 1000 counties in 26 states are declared disasters due to drought(See McCabe 2004 on PDO&AMO effects at NOAA). We are reprising early 30’s climatic events(see Dust Bowl, High Plains).
Swiss and German two year bills negative, Spain over 7%, Italy closing in on same, Japanese manufacturing sharply negative, same in Germany, official Chinese growth 7%(i.e. none), oil holding its own, homes flat, BDI returning to record lows, trucking down, only rails Ok.
Gallup has Belial’s avatar in negative approval. He is dead. I predict less than 22% of eligible voters will opt to re-elect.
We are in recession, U3 is holding only because states are running out the 99 week clock. Labor participation will be at Greater Depression levels by November.
Dead, dead, dead.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:24 pmDRJ- Not that I heard of, but of course they never published another letter to the editor that I regularly send to them.
jl (fb346e) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:28 pm169. cont. Look at the price of corn, soy, wheat and livestock-into orbit.
What does that mean in emerging economies? Starvation, rioting, war.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:38 pmjust 39 cents a day can feed a hungry child won’t you help
sally struthersfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:45 pmGary
That’s what Romney needs to be addressing
Not hearing much from his campaign. Yelling jobs isn’t going to get him elected
Tax cuts would
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:47 pm142. I would have to agree with the sentiment but note its a very long row to hoe.
If half of the TEA candidates turn out once elected to be their own person we’d be blessed. Looking around, I’d say blessed or cursed is an open question.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 6:52 pm173. Oh, you’ll get no argument from me about Willard’s comparative insufficiency–present inhabitant excepted–for the job at hand.
But he does not make significant mistakes. Choombaracka makes nothing but. Blue collar Amerikkka has had him up to their eyeballs. In WI public union revenues are now less than half their 2011 level.
People are noticing they have national leading economic growth and teachers were not laid off.
Mitt is playing not to lose but Bumblef*ck won’t let him.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:00 pm_____________________________________________
Dead, dead, dead.
It’s like watching a car crash in slow motion, best exemplified by what’s going on in Spain. That country allowed Socialists to run rampant over the past several years, then recently turned to the “center-right.” Only problem is the “center-right” — at least how it’s defined in Europe — apparently is just barely better than, or just as bad as, what the ultra-liberals are all about.
So much for the common sense and reliability of philosophical squishiness (eg, Bush Jr being a soft touch on illegal immigration, Justice John Roberts’ contortionist routine on Obamacare, Herbert Hoover in the 1930s introducing the tax-and-spend policies of his successor).
I have a hunch that Europeans like Spain’s prime minister are analogous to Americans like Arnold Schwarzenegger, either in terms of circumstances (ie, a non-leftist trying to maneuver amidst liberalism gone berserk) or in terms of being about as ideologically firm as a bucket of jello.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:08 pmWell you have to consider Mark, that the PP’s predecessors, typified by the late Manuel Fraga, where suffused with Francoism, which was skeptical
narciso (ee31f1) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:16 pmof free wheeling capitalism, Aznar was likely the exception,
176. “I have a hunch that Europeans like Spain’s prime minister are analogous to Americans like Arnold Schwarzenegger”
Apt analogy. Just playing out their hand and hoping to cash in before their luck turns to total sh*t.
Rajoy will not pass Go.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:21 pmWhat is it that Glenn Reynolds likes to say:
That which cannot continue, won’t!
Well, that’s the Rx for Obamanomics, it can’t continue for there’s no there there.
AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:22 pm154, 173. You’ve sort of delimited expectations for the Romany presidency, versus current present-tence-y.
Times will be, overall, worse than BlameBoosh inherited. Economic RESET is a given.
Amerikkka is resilient and I don’t expect 25% U3, our standard of living is vastly better than ’33-’36, but government has failed, the economic system has failed and all team R knows in preparation is managing their portfolios.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:37 pmComment by Ericpwjohnson — 7/14/2012 @ 4:30 pm
The only path obama had to reelection was a Romney nomination.
They had made all their plans on that basis. They had a whole bunch of negative attacks mostly related to Bain Capital, worked out. But Romney’s people kept on saying Romney is the strongest candidate and Obama couldn’t possibly want him to win the nomination.
Sammy Finkelman (b645fc) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:41 pm______________________________________________
typified by the late Manuel Fraga
A helpful hint, since my looking up his background points to how in a society like Spain, even the non-leftists are more socialistic than not. So, in general terms, such people can be characterized as being — in certain crucial ways — extremely squishy, no less prone to having deflated common sense on occasion as what the so-called center-right in super-blue states like California or ultra-blue cities like New York, San Francisco or LA may be guilty of.
Mark (31de87) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:41 pmGary,
Its going to take a massive course correction to right this ship.
If Romney’s planning this he had better step it io
Ericpwjohnson (e4e3a6) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:42 pmWell, yes, and no, this tradition precedes the left as we commonly understand it, the Conservatives as in Latin America, were for the landed elite, the Liberals, the Sarmientos, the Juarez’s, were more
narciso (ee31f1) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:48 pmclassically oriented,
Comment by ukuleledave — 7/14/2012 @ 11:24 am
I care if laws are broken.
Bad laws, too? Unnecessary laws, too? Cruel laws, too?
Do you evaluate what the law is worth before you advocate tougher enforcement, or not? Are you for enforcing laws to the hilt just because they are laws?
What about illegal downloading of software?
Importing prescription medicines from Canada or Mexico?
Are you for a crackdown on that?
Sammy Finkelman (b645fc) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:48 pm183. It should be a nail biter, up late regardless. Still, we keep suggesting Mitt ought to do this or that and he never does.
Meh personified.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:55 pmComment by Dana — 7/14/2012 @ 10:25 am
i> And, one cannot plead ignorance to said laws.
Not ignorance of course. It’s just that you cannot knock the idea out of people’s heads that they have a right to come. because after all, that’s what people did throughout human history.
As it says in the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness – that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
As long as people in Mexico etc believe that, your never going to knock out the idea from their heads they have a right to come, when there really is no other way to pursue happiness.
Sammy Finkelman (56dfc0) — 7/14/2012 @ 7:59 pmthat’s a neat way of thinking about it
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:01 pm“Still, we keep suggesting Mitt ought to do this or that and he never does.”
gary – Still, it is probably bitter comfort that Mitt is one of many who does not listen to your advice.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:04 pmgary is one voice in teh wilderness… a wilderness comedian, if you will.
Colonel Haiku (21cab1) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:11 pmSammy,
There isn’t a right to immigrate to America, either under American or international law. But the U.S. does have the right to secure its borders and provide for orderly immigration.
What you seem to be arguing is that there is (or should be) a natural/moral right to live, work, and travel where one pleases. But our society is founded on law and property rights, not social justice.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:15 pm“But our society is founded on law and property rights, not social justice.”
DRJ – That would seem to come from the “that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed” portion of the Declaration quoted by Sammy.
Holding the U.S. responsible for accommodating the all the beliefs of people in other countries, whether or not they comply with our laws, is a non-starter.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:25 pmwhen there really is no other way to pursue happiness.
Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 7/14/2012 @ 7:59 pm
AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:26 pmI suppose it’s impractical to think that they might just fix their own country (again)?
When you’ve had as many “revolutions” as has Mexico, to so little effect; you have to think that the real problem is “something in the water”.
189. I do not remember offering Mitt advice beyond “scram”.
All the same, he appears to be in the cat bird seat. I can imagine nothing that would save BHO at this point, not even an attack.
Tho the undecideds are few, they’ll all go against SPOS.
The Democratic primary undervote, people who voted but either left President blank or voted for another ran 30-40%. Any amount Nov. 6 and he loses.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:38 pmthe last one in 1910, went horribly awry, how far can be seen in ‘For Greater Glory, which occurred nearly 20 years later,
narciso (ee31f1) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:39 pm190. That makes two of us unfunny.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:43 pm@ Sammy,
Not ignorance of course. It’s just that you cannot knock the idea out of people’s heads that they have a right to come. because after all, that’s what people did throughout human history.
As it says in the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness – that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
As long as people in Mexico etc believe that, your never going to knock out the idea from their heads they have a right to come, when there really is no other way to pursue happiness.
Sammy,
This is a confusing statement, because on one hand you are referencing *our* Declaration of Independence and concluding that as long “as people in Mexico etc believe that, your never going to knock out the idea from their heads they have a right to come, when there really is no other way to pursue happiness.”, and yet if they recognize and have a belief in this document (which I do not believe at all is any part of an illegal immigrant’s decision making), then they must in turn also give the same measure of respect for the same nation’s laws that provide and protect the citizens’ safety, thus ensuring the pursuit of happiness can indeed be available to them. IOW, you dont’ get to claim to believe the DoI and give it respect, without giving our laws the same respect.
Dana (292dcf) — 7/14/2012 @ 8:55 pm“189. I do not remember offering Mitt advice beyond “scram”.”
gary – Whatever you say.
“Still, we keep suggesting Mitt ought to do this or that and he never does.”
Not your words from #186.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:10 pmMitt should spare an afternoon to ask himself what he wants to do when he’s president. We’re all dying to know.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:15 pmFor $40,000 He’ll Tell You What He Really Thinks
(Original article headline on page 22 of the July 16-July 22 Bloomberg Business Week.)
Both Obama and Romney have held closed door fundraisers. The $40,000 actually was for a May 10 Obama event at George Clooney’s home. Romney charges $50,000.
Back in 2008, at a San Francisco fundraiser Obama “explained” that small town voters are “bitter” and “cling to guns of religion” That was secretly recorded by an attendee. Now Obama lets in the press to record boilerplate remarks at any event wher he is to speak, then shoos them out. He may ask people not to release video and or confiscate cell phones and put them in plastic bags before letting people in.
In April Romney was overheard (he was near the border of the property and reporters were standing on the sidewalk) at a backyard fundraiser saying he might abolish the Department of Housing and Urban Development and eliminate the mortgage interest tax deduction for second homes. (He also talked about eliminating the state income tax deduction! And the property tax deduction.)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432704577346611860756628.html
Romney keeps his schedule more secret than Obama apparently.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:55 pmhere is a very… odd – or what would have been considered odd not long at all ago – article about how the government should bottle-feed us like foundling kittens
the whole thing is about home-equity loans and how the people what took them out are all underwater like flipper flipper faster than lightning
I would just like to highlight a few passages if I may
yes – when we hear all that talk about how people used to use their homes as a piggy bank – this is what that’s referring to – and the NYT says the obama government should’ve forced banks to take a haircut on that?
For reals?
Really?
That’s so …
really?
Yup.
there’s a buncha blah blah blah about how some people in some program did get to knock a little off of what they had to pay back for raiding the piggy bank … but the whole thing ends on a sour note
yeah they coulda lived within their means instead of borrowing like they had the golden willy wonka ticket in their grubby little loser hands
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 9:59 pmeliminate the mortgage interest tax deduction for second homes
I’m generally ok with this sort of thing as long as people who borrowed under the old rules get grandfathered out so to speak
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 7/14/2012 @ 10:00 pmJames Earl Jones doesn’t think we have a black president.
Tanny O'Haley (12193c) — 7/15/2012 @ 1:24 amSammy,
Our founding fathers considered the pursuit of happiness to be the pursuit of a virtuous life. In history words change in meaning. For instance gay used to mean happy, not homosexual. That’s why why when interpreting old documents they cant be interpreted in light of today’s meaning, but the meaning and culture at the time the document was written.
Tanny O'Haley (12193c) — 7/15/2012 @ 1:30 amThe next election could be decided by how many illegal aliens come across our borders to vote. They could be also be coming for free education, welfare and a ebt card. And to drive without a license or insurance. But not to kill. That just happens sometimes.
mg (44de53) — 7/15/2012 @ 2:34 amJeesh.
A small part of my comment:
I care if laws are broken.
Sammy Finkleman comments:
Bad laws, too? Unnecessary laws, too? Cruel laws, too? Do you evaluate what the law is worth before you advocate tougher enforcement, or not? Are you for enforcing laws to the hilt just because they are laws?
What about illegal downloading of software?
Importing prescription medicines from Canada or Mexico?
Are you for a crackdown on that?
Sammy, I am also for overturning through the ballott box those laws which are either immoral or “bad.”
As much as I’m sure you figure the dabate is all about imported viagara from Newfoundland, and illegally downloaded software, it is not.
Crackdown is not the proper term, since this administration has decided not to enforce the laws on the books. It’s not a crackdown if all anybody wants is enforcement.
They have taken the position that some laws are just NOT important enough to be enforced — even when enforcement would be a natural part of police and prosecution otherwise. For example, if the police pull me over while I transport 10,000 pills illegally from Canada, I’m in trouble way beyond my busted taillight. But if I didn’t actually come from the country I claim — then that is apparently okay because the government has chosen NOT to enforce that law.
By the way, you’re shipment is on the way.
Routinely people who have crossed into the US illegally and who have faked their identification documents are arrested or detained for a minor thing, and then tossed back into the community with no further action regarding immigration status. I was born here. If I fake my ID and show it to the police, I am going to be arrested on the spot.
Don’t blame me if enforcing something will be onerous. I didn’t let this get to this point. The government encourages a illegal immigration through non-enforcement.
And by the way, sometimes Canadian and Mexican meds are not the genuine article, and are unhealthy fakes. And I always pay for my software. Always. I know you find that hard to understand, because you believe minor fraud is so forgivable. Apparently you don’t invest in medical research or write software for a living. What business are you involved in, that I can go ahead and rip you off?
If your problem is too many laws, I’m on your side. So, talk to your reps about getting that nasty “no software stealing” law eliminated if it bothers you so. Hell, I’ll support a lifting/eliminating of tons of laws. I jumped into this because someone suggested that conservatives are clearly the ones who would have been anti-immigrant bigots in the days of Ellis Island. Those people came here legally. Their first act was to legally join the American system of laws. Contrast this with folks whose first act is to break the laws at the boarder, fake their ID, and operate frauds against their employers and the Social Security Admin. (Making a mess of a messy system. Wait until these guys working under someone elses numbers start to retire and demand benefits.) There seems to be a qualitative difference between those two experiences, and that difference hurts our nation.
I think you should have options regarding third-world manufactured medicines and off-brand hip replacements.
But since most every country on the globe demands that immigrants go through a legal process, and since our laws also demand a legal process, then lets enforce the laws which exist.
ukuleledave (fdf808) — 7/15/2012 @ 7:59 amWhew. Got worked up there. Felt good.
ukuleledave (fdf808) — 7/15/2012 @ 8:00 am“Sammy Finkleman comments:
Bad laws, too? Unnecessary laws, too? Cruel laws, too? Do you evaluate what the law is worth before you advocate tougher enforcement, or not? Are you for enforcing laws to the hilt just because they are laws?
What about illegal downloading of software?
Importing prescription medicines from Canada or Mexico?
Are you for a crackdown on that?”
ukuleledave – Seriously, where does thinking like this originate?
Who is going to rank the hierarchy of laws we are permitted to break?
Will the list be the same for each person?
Judge, I deemed that was a bad law so I decided I was allowed to break it. Sorry moron, guilty!
Whatever happened to common sense?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/15/2012 @ 8:41 amHigh school friend killed by an illegal who ran a red light while being chased by Mesa, Az police. Illegal was pulled over 6 days prior by Mesa police for no tags on vehicle or drivers license. Since Mesa is a sanctuary city no papers etc were checked and he was given a traffic ticket and sent on his way. Case went to trial and taxpayers paid for lawyers and interpreter. His defense was that the coyote he paid to smuggle him into the US was in the vehicle with a gun to his head, yet they both ran from the vehicle after they hit and killed my friend. He was convicted and appealled the case all the way to the AZ Supreme Court. His sentence was upheld because there was a death involved. Had AZ 1070 been in effect she would still be alive and her two kids lives wouldn’t be so rotten now. They sued the Mesa PD for various infractions in a long expensive trial and got nothing!!!! How can people not be crazy outraged. In the 15 years I lived there the decline was staggering. I honestly don’t have a strong enough word to convey what is happening.
Just Left AZ (addf31) — 7/15/2012 @ 8:44 amEthnically or Culturally?
Ethnically: he’s of mixed White American-KENYAN background
Culturally: he was raised by his white mother, and white grandparents as a radical leftist.
Given those two factors, I would say that he has little or no connection, with anything that resembles the average black American experience.
Mike Giles (d87ccb) — 7/15/2012 @ 8:56 amHe’s “black” only in so far as he matches the leftist fixation with his skin color. If he were to wake up tomorrow morning as a blond haired blue eyed Aryan type, and continued to behave, speak, and act in exactly the same manner as he does now; would there be any cultural signs as to his “blackness”.
Comment by Just Left AZ — 7/15/2012 @ 8:44 am
— That’s a terrible, tragic story; but, unfortunately, all too believable. I lived in Mesa for five years once . . . once. Worst tap water ever! (you couldn’t quite light it on fire, but you could fill your pool with it and not need to add chemicals) I was robbed a quarter mile away from a police substation, and they never caught the guys. And then you add “sanctuary city” on top of it . . .
Icy (dd502a) — 7/15/2012 @ 10:10 amComment by Mike Giles — 7/15/2012 @ 8:56 am
If he [Obama] were to wake up tomorrow morning as a blond haired blue eyed Aryan type, and continued to behave, speak, and act in exactly the same manner as he does now; would there be any cultural signs as to his “blackness”.
Basketball. I don’t know where he picked that up, though.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/15/2012 @ 10:18 amComment by ukuleledave — 7/15/2012 @ 7:59 am
Routinely people who have crossed into the US illegally and who have faked their identification documents are arrested or detained for a minor thing, and then tossed back into the community with no further action regarding immigration status. I was born here. If I fake my ID and show it to the police, I am going to be arrested on the spot.
???
What are you talking about? Sometimes people get arrested for not have any IDS (when otherwise they would be given a ticket. People under 21 often use fake Ids to buy alcohol
(a law which was forced on the states by the way. The Supreme Court upheld it in South Dakota v Dole 483 US 203, claiming it was not coercive and was also germane to the purpose of the money – interstate highway safety. It was coercive, and so was the national 55 MPH speed limit, because not one state declined to go along. But anyway the court had held that. Although no state deviated from the 21 year old rule in any way. You could have come up with ideas that didn’t involve encouraging driving across state lines to buy liquor. And the 55 MPH speed limit was only repealed at the federal level. In NFIB v Sebelius, Chief Justice Roberts did not overrule Dole in any way but held the Medicaid expansion (because it put all Medicaid at risk) was more coercive than the 5% reduction in highway funds in the Dole case. In her dissent, Justice Ginsberg argued it was less coercive, because states were not being coerced to spend very much more extra money)
Anyway as I was saying, people under 21 often use fake Ids to buy alcohol, but they are only arrested (or charged) with buying or consuming alcohol, not with possessing fake IDs. The usual response to fake IDs, is just to confiscate it. People manufacturing it or providing it may get a little more, but it only becomes serious if one of the people they give it to turns out to be a terrorist.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:05 amComment by Mike Giles — 7/15/2012 @ 8:56 am
Well there is that Al Green thing he did at the Apollo theater.
Gerald A (b00ac1) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:09 amBut since most every country on the globe demands that immigrants go through a legal process, and since our laws also demand a legal process, then lets enforce the laws which exist.
Are you channeling Justice Anthony Kennedy, who thinks out sense of what is appropriate should be derived from foreign law?
A lot of things that go on in foreign countries aren’t good.
A Priest Stands Up for the Migrants Who Run Mexico’s Gauntlet
The crimes the migrants face — extortion, rape, kidnapping and murder — have become so brazen and brutal that Mexicans can no longer ignore them. As the horrors have multiplied, Father Solalinde’s demands for the migrants’ protection have begun to resonate.
“Things have changed a lot,” Father Solalinde said in an interview here this week. “The total invisibility of not seeing the migrants, of not knowing what was happening to them, all the different abuses, which are growing more serious, more violent, has passed. I have become famous because of the migrants, because people are concerned about them.”
… After he spent years presenting evidence of abuses to the authorities, to no effect, a handful of state police officers have been put on trial, although none have served prison time. The federal government has taken on an investigation into one prominent attack on migrants and this week presented him with a chart showing more than 40 suspects.
Still, neither the federal nor state government has made any progress in figuring out where the latest death threats came from. He seemed unperturbed about going home, though.
“I discovered that when you are not afraid, they respect you more,” he said. “Bit by bit, I got stronger, I learned and lost the fear.”
The story of Father Solalinde’s mission is entwined with the slow acceptance of an essential hypocrisy here: for all the complaints about the mistreatment of Mexican immigrants in the United States, Central and South Americans face far worse as they travel across Mexico.
The massacre of 72 migrants, whose bodies were found in August 2010 on a ranch in the northern border state of Tamaulipas, brought home the reality of the dangers to migrants.
The following April, the authorities found 193 bodies in mass graves not far away, many believed to be migrants kidnapped from buses traveling toward the border shared by Mexico and the United States. Experts believe that as many as 22,000 migrants are kidnapped a year, based on testimony compiled by the National Human Rights Commission in Mexico.
But victims are usually too afraid to complain, and the families who might speak for them are far away and often ignorant of what occurred…
And in Burma:Ethnic Cleansing in Myanmar – New York Times Op Ed
Cruelty toward the Rohingyas is not new. They have faced torture, neglect and repression in the Buddhist-majority land since it achieved independence in 1948. Its constitution closes all options for Rohingyas to be citizens, on grounds that their ancestors didn’t live there when the land, once called Burma, came under British rule in the 19th century (a contention the Rohingyas dispute). Even now, as military rulers have begun to loosen their grip, there is no sign of change for the Rohingyas. Instead, the Burmese are trying to cast them out.
The current violence can be traced to the rape and killing in late May of a Buddhist woman, for which the police reportedly detained three Muslims. That was followed by mob attacks on Rohingyas and other Muslims that killed dozens of people. According to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, state security forces have now conducted mass arrests of Muslims; they destroyed thousands of homes, with the impact falling most heavily on the Rohingyas. Displaced Rohingyas have tried to flee across the Naf River to neighboring Bangladesh; some have died in the effort.
The Burmese media have cited early rioting by Rohingyas and have cast them as terrorists and traitors. In mid-June, in the name of stopping such violence, the government declared a state of emergency. But it has used its border security force to burn houses, kill men and evict Rohingyas from their villages. And on Thursday, President Thein Sein suggested that Myanmar could end the crisis by expelling all of its Rohingyas or by having the United Nations resettle them — a proposal that a United Nations official quickly rejected.
This is not sectarian violence; it is state-supported ethnic cleansing, and the nations of the world aren’t pressing Myanmar’s leaders to stop it. Even Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi has not spoken out…
They don’t have birthright citizenship in Burma, so you can have inherited illegality and the problem doesn’t go away with time. Notice here they take one crime by one person and that becomes an excuse to persecute the entire group.
All over the world, people violate immigration laws, and all over the world, people get killed crossing borders.. This is not an example for the United States of America.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:14 am______________________________________________
Given those two factors, I would say that he has little or no connection, with anything that resembles the average black American experience.
Regrettably, he does share the one bond that unfortunately ties so many people — far too many people — in black America together: he’s of the left, a stanch, dyed-in-the-wool Democrat/liberal.
I got into a somewhat tense debate awhile back with a person (who happens to be black) and I mentioned to her that instead of her or others always focusing on race, race, race — which she likes to do from a woe-is-me angle and, in turn, a jealousy-resentment angle directed at whites/non-blacks (ie, Asians and Latinos) — she instead think of people based on their ideological characteristics. She was rather nonplussed with my recommendation.
Mark (b7a6e9) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:31 am______________________________________________
Whatever happened to common sense?
It has been marginalized through the years, because it’s not humane, compassionate, beautiful, generous, tolerant and sophisticated enough.
Mark (b7a6e9) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:35 amDon’t blame me if enforcing something will be onerous. I didn’t let this get to this point.
Since when is the new situation irrelevant. Let’s bring back debtors prison, too maybe. Let’s collect all back taxes.
The government encourages a illegal immigration through non-enforcement.
Non-enforcement is the natural state of affairs.
And by the way, sometimes Canadian and Mexican meds are not the genuine article, and are unhealthy fakes.
This is a bit of a problem, but it also happens with meds sold in the United States.
And I always pay for my software. Always. I know you find that hard to understand, because you believe minor fraud is so forgivable.
If other people didn’t steal software, or download music, it would be much more expensive for you. We’d still have copy protection. There would not e 99 cent downloads. They could even go for limited licenses. We are seeing this with e-books. But what I am talking about is the idea of a crackdown simply because something is not legal. What happened with me is I got sold a computer without a DOS manual, so I suppose the operating system was pirated by the retailer. He also neglected to include a printer port, – what I thought was a printer port was a cassette interface – as I discovered a year later, and it had to be sent back and a second one was installed. Software reported I now had two printer ports.
A lot of software is orphaned.
If your problem is too many laws, I’m on your side. So, talk to your reps about getting that nasty “no software stealing” law eliminated if it bothers you so.
What I’d really like is a 3 year copyright period for software, starting from the first 1000 sales.
Hell, I’ll support a lifting/eliminating of tons of laws. I jumped into this because someone suggested that conservatives are clearly the ones who would have been anti-immigrant bigots in the days of Ellis Island. Those people came here legally. Their first act was to legally join the American system of laws. Contrast this with folks whose first act is to break the laws at the boarder, fake their ID, and operate frauds against their employers and the Social Security Admin.
They had no possibility of abiding by the law.
The real mess in the Social Security system is that people who worked for some years under other names can’t get credit. This needs to be straightened out.
(Making a mess of a messy system. Wait until these guys working under someone elses numbers start to retire and demand benefits.)
That gets caught when the real person objects. It gets caught the next year. We are getting more of this stuff because it is getting harder to invent fictitious people. That’s not a good change.
People in Florida used to file tax returns in the names of dead people (using Social Security from the Social Security Death index. Then they stopped publishing dead people’s Social Security numbers. Then they did prisoners. Now they are using real elderly people, obtaining the numbers from phramnacies or wherever, and really messing things up. The government now offers as a refund
option debit cards, which are not tied to any identifiable person like a bank account would be and they get around tracing through the mail delivery system by erecting fake mailboxes in front of foreclosed houses in defunct communities, and sometimes by robbing the mail carriers.
You know you have to think a whole system through. They don’t do that. But one guarantee. I you have millions of people trying to figure a way around some controls, a way will surely be found. If you want to avoid compromising of controls, you must reduce the number of people who have an incentive to do so.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:36 amPeople who went through Ellis Island actually frequently broke the law, you know. There were all kind of disqualifications, which people evaded, and sponsorship often was a fake.
Sammy Finkelman (4a5e8f) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:38 am_____________________________________________
Non-enforcement is the natural state of affairs.
But placed against the backdrop of the interesting ironies of both the US in the past and Mexico generally of today, that statement does need an asterisk placed next to it.
Mark (b7a6e9) — 7/15/2012 @ 11:54 amGeorge Lopez: ‘Mitt Romney Is a F***ing Latino and He Won’t Admit It’…
meh… Jorge Lopez
Colonel Haiku (8ae8b4) — 7/15/2012 @ 12:06 pmis one BIG F***ing washed up
whack comedian
Sammy, Sammy, Sammy:
Dave: Hell, I’ll support a lifting/eliminating of tons of laws. I jumped into this because someone suggested that conservatives are clearly the ones who would have been anti-immigrant bigots in the days of Ellis Island. Those people came here legally. Their first act was to legally join the American system of laws. Contrast this with folks whose first act is to break the laws at the boarder, fake their ID, and operate frauds against their employers and the Social Security Admin.
Sammy:They had no possibility of abiding by the law.
The real mess in the Social Security system is that people who worked for some years under other names can’t get credit. This needs to be straightened out.
(Making a mess of a messy system. Wait until these guys working under someone elses numbers start to retire and demand benefits.)
That gets caught when the real person objects. It gets caught the next year. We are getting more of this stuff because it is getting harder to invent fictitious people. That’s not a good change.
Sammy, the system should not reward those who invented fictitious people, or who used false numbers, or who committed fraud at all. Is that so hard? My point was:One day our already broken Soc. Sec. system will have to untangle the lies.
I bolded the above statement because it seems impossible that you really think the relative ease in which fraud is committed matters.
I think Patterico made the point well.
They’re not supposed to be here in the first place.
ukuleledave (5f2a17) — 7/15/2012 @ 1:38 pmukuleledave – Sammy was basically not responsive to any of the points you raised. Moving goal posts and misdirection are well used tools of his. Direct responses, not so much.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/15/2012 @ 1:54 pmAs I’ve said before, Sammy’s raison d’être is to play devil’s advocate for contrary positions that are not fact-based, but only “supported” by ‘Finkelman Logic’ — i.e. they tend to only make sense if you move the goal posts into the stands or out into the parking lot.
Icy (dd502a) — 7/15/2012 @ 2:13 pmThanks guys. I’m gonna go break some laws now, cause…I have no choice and the system is broke.
ukuleledave (5f2a17) — 7/15/2012 @ 2:44 pmWell, Ogabe did slow illegal inmigracion to a trickle. Drought will finish it off.
Meanwhile, the ECB(EU Fed) declares all bondholders will lose money in bailout of Spanish banks. Tough luck saps, EU has run out of other people’s money. Irish are preparing IEDs.
Italy expects 2012 GDP to contract near 3%.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/15/2012 @ 7:22 pmComment by happyfeet — 7/14/2012 @ 9:59 pm
OK, that was a shock – I’ve known this for years {back when I still watched Bill Maher & Maxine Waters was bemoaning those poor poor ripped off loanees, blech} Anyway, the shock is that happyfeet gets it!!!
Amy Shulkusky (67fbd5) — 7/15/2012 @ 8:06 pmObie plays both sides of the action:
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2012/07/obama-accused-of-discreetly-betraying-hispanics-despite-rhetoric-to-the-contrary.html#more
Imagine that.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/16/2012 @ 5:05 amAnd if we all are required to use the same beanbag ammo our government forces Border Patrol agents to fire at the illegals who are wielding the AK-47s our government has provided them with, our homes will be perfectly safe for those illegals to break into.
You know, while they’re in the process of making life better for their families.
Making life better for you, me, Clarisse Grime, or Brian Terry doesn’t seem to be on anyone’s radar screen.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/16/2012 @ 7:55 amIn your opinion which major wildfire started by illegal aliens seeking a better life for their families best reflects their inherent nobility, Mr. Feets?
Some people believe it was one of the Horseshoe canyon fires, but my vote has to go to the Monument fire that greatly contributed to the erosion that eventually cut the town of Tombstone off from it’s water source.
Nothing reeks of simple human dignity so much as a major conflagration. Perhaps because it destroys the garbage that illegals strew about as they trash the landscape on their march north.
Speaking of human dignity, what about the dignity of people I know in Arizona who can’t go on vacation without hiring a house sitter as if they leave their house won’t remain unoccupied for very long. People who’ve eventually thrown up their hands and moved away from the border because they couldn’t put up with the shear amount of the traffic. And the commotion. Perhaps it’s something less of a tragedy, but I know people who’ve given up what used to be pretty desirable hunting leases that in some cases had been in the family for generations because it just wasn’t worth it.
Still something was lost. Quite a bit. Illegal aliens make lousy neighbors. When they aren’t littering the landscape with their garbage or torching it with their campfires they can’t be bothered to put out when they move on, they can be pretty violent to boot. Not an exception, as a rule. Perhaps because our government encourages that sort of ‘tude.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/16/2012 @ 8:15 amThe nation is not private property and any attempt to conflate the two behooves the left not to the conservatives. Hence, the analogy does not work.
anu pa (124dc3) — 7/16/2012 @ 2:15 pmComment by gary gulrud @228. An interesting post.
While discussing how Obama lies through his teeth for votes, in this case via his hispandering, Riehl linked to this post on Powerline by John Hinderaker:
Can a Candidate Lie His Way to the Presidency?
I don’t know exactly what Obama thinks he’s doing on the immigration issue despite trying to scare hispanic voters to keep them on the reservation (just like the democrats are trying to scare black voters).
But the thing is, Obama thinks no one is on to him. That’s what the sycophants he surrounds himself with tell him, and that’s what the media lapdogs tell hem when they aren’t using their tongues to give him a bath.
But everyone’s on to him. You’d think someone who lies so frequently about everything might actually get good at it what with all the practice. Nope. Not the genius manchild in the WH.
I don’t think he even knows what a good lie would look or sound like. Which probably explains why he thinks his mouthpiece Carney is doing a bang up job.
But this is a discussion that really belongs more on this comment thread.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/16/2012 @ 2:45 pmBHO is the Black, Male, Lillian Hellman:
“Every word (s)he writes is a lie, including the ‘and’ and the ‘the’.”
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 7/16/2012 @ 3:34 pmI always considered Obama just the black version of John “Silky Pony” Edwards. Two Americas and all. Or in Obama’s case, “Amerikkka” as in “the US of KKK.”
As for him being the male version of anything, I believe you’re confusing the Preezy with his wife.
But it works out well for my analogy as I’m not so sure about Edwards, either.
Steve57 (65d29f) — 7/16/2012 @ 3:47 pm232. At the beginning of June we stopped by the South Lawn on our way from Ford’s Theatre(too overun by adolescents to stop in) to the Holocaust Museum(better but just because nearing close).
Only some dozens of evident immigrants stood peering thru the gates. Like only newbies still cared to scan the windows or look skyward for helicopters.
No one looks to Doofus for anything anymore.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/18/2012 @ 8:56 amProblems with copyright law – and politically biased enforcement:
http://www.volokh.com/2012/07/18/copyright-v-conservatives/#disqus_thread
The owner of the copyright forced YouTube to take down a Romney video ad, that included of Obama singing a song, but had not asked for the Obama video itself to be taken down. They did now, after it was pnted out, but Al Green singing it is still unobjected to.
The interesting thing is, the law was probably not on the copyright owner’s side.
And the owner is a foreign (German) corporation Bertelsmann.
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