Austin Teacher Charged with Giving Morning-After Pill to Student
In Austin, a teacher gives one of her students the “morning after” pill — and it doesn’t work out so well:
Steinberg, who also was a math teacher at LBJ, gave the pill to a 16-year-old student who was crying in her class about Jan. 26 because she had unprotected sex with her boyfriend, [an arrest] affidavit said.
. . . .
The student did not have a prescription for the medication, which is required for females younger than 17, the affidavit said.
The student and her boyfriend then gave Steinberg money for the medication, the affidavit said.
. . . .
Later, the student texted Steinberg and said she was nauseous, light-headed and experiencing back pain, the affidavit said. The student also said she was frightened, the affidavit said.
Steinberg texted back “this was normal, and to take a hot shower and relax,” the affidavit said.
Dr. Steinberg — oh, I mean NON-Dr. Steinberg — has learned her lesson:
Steinberg “expressed anger at (the student), blaming her for getting in trouble,” the affidavit said.
Or not.
Steinberg has been charged with a felony. I say: good. Will abortion advocates agree with me?
Somehow I doubt it. I am thinking this is going to be one of those instances where abortion advocates support an action they would never support in any other context. Normally, rational people say that you don’t give a child prescription medication that could have serious side effects unless you’re a doctor. But abortion advocates will no doubt see this as different: a horrible situation caused by a draconian law, blah blah blah.
The same thing happens with informed consent laws. Want to make a doctor tell his patients what the gall bladder surgery really entails? What the potential risks are? What the patient is truly about to undergo? Excellent. Want to make sure abortion doctors do the same? OH MY GOD YOU CAN’T DO THAT IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL YOU ARE A TROGLODYTE. Is the response.
It’s OK if you’re supporting abortion.
So. Let’s wait and watch to see if this becomes a big story. And if it does, how the pro-abortion crowd (yes, I said it) responds. A new right to have your child’s teacher become a doctor dispensing potentially harmful medication? I bet they’re for it.
RELATED: Or perhaps they are just counting on the Obama administration’s mandate that healthcare plans provide the morning after pill — a requirement that could force religiously-affiliated hospitals to provide medication that they consider to be immoral.
I bet you’re right.
Frank (167bb8) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:26 amsomebody needs to teach that little girl that taking morning after pills is a good way to get disqualified from being on Teen Mom
but maybe she’ll get on the cover of In Touch magazine some other way
between you and me though I think she blew it
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:28 amThe only answer is to require everyone to take the morning after pill every morning.
The teachers understand what our country is about. Just like that Oxnard teach that gave a dress to a confused boy who wound up getting shot in class.
AZ Bob (1c9631) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:30 ammostly though I think getting fired is plenty punishment in Barack Obama’s America
besides if there was a crime committed the little vixen and her boyfriend should be charged as accessories I think
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:39 amthis just opens up an all-too-fertile (hah!) realm of creepy Lila Rose-style entrapment
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:40 amWe saw yesterday from dimwit that the Right to unlimited birth control paid for by someone else trumps the Church’s 1st Amendment rights.
JD (c32343) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:41 amI’m fairly sure the real goal will be to follow the Euro-nannies who started implanting teenage girls (as young as 13) with long term contraceptives without permission or notification.
Telegraph Article
We are all just sheep to be herded by our betters.
MaaddMaaxx (25e27f) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:50 amThe libs are the new monarchy.
The church doesn’t want to know people who have an abortion……….if that was true Pelosi and her minions would have been excommunicated.
Pro-Choicers believe in death for unhealthy babies that is eugenicist rhetoric at it’s best.
You know who else oppose Birth Controls ,Oral Contraceptives and Birth Control…………the muslims.
But yet muslims according to the ultra-left are open-minded.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:05 amIt’s contraception, not induced abortion. It ought to be OTC IMO to girls 16 and over.
It isn’t any fun at all and causes nausea and lightheadedness &c. The symptoms are very unpleasant but not dangerous.
The teacher should be sacked. The girl should have been sent to a counselor or counseled to tell her parents.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:06 amYou take/send the kid to an emergency room for an after sex pill.
Teacher’s an idiot.
nk (0498ac) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:07 amPlus screening for other consequences of unprotected sex.
nk (0498ac) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:08 amThis is all separate from the wrongness of a teacher dispensing medication to a pupil, (not to mention one in emotional distress.)
Why do people insist this is a form of abortion when the known mechanism is delay of ovlulation, and is zero direct evidence there is any affect on a fertilized ovum? It doesn’t work that way. It delays ovulation. Sperm and egg miss the connection.
Id have as much problem with the teacher if she had handed out condoms with no pharmaceutical effect whatsoever. That is an unacceptable intrusion on boundaries of authority in a number of different way.
But I would wish that argument be made in some kind of rational fashion excluding the notion that this is some kind of induced abortion.
fertilization is not an instant thing. It can take days to occur following sexual intercourse.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:15 amidiot teachers are not certainly not a rarity
but even the idiot teachers are gonna learn a lot from this case I think, so in that sense it’s all to the good
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:16 amare
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:18 amnotI do not like Santorum but I don’t appreciate Romneybots projecting their views on to him.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:26 amIt would be perfectly alright if the teacher were a registered Democrat. ( odds are 9 to 1 that is the case.)If a Republican, then tar and feathers.
BarSinister (99d480) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:31 amhere’s another news story what has a picture of the teacher and they have an expert and he says that there’s no procedure in place for what to do when a kid comes to you crying cause of she had unprotected sex last night
I wonder if that’s true.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:33 amAfter further thought, I must conclude that the teacher has a 99 to 1 probability of being a Democrat. If she were a Republican, that fact would have appeared in the story.
BarSinister (99d480) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:43 amSarahw,
If you think this contraceptive should be OTC for everyone, do you agree with the university education professor at happyfeet’s 17 who said: “sometimes the right thing isn’t the appropriate thing according to [school district] policy”? In other words, if this hadn’t been prohibited by school district policy and if it wasn’t a prescription medication, would you agree with what the teacher did?
It sounds to me like the professor thought the rules should be clarified but, overall, it was good to give the student a morning after pill/contraceptive.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 8:59 amI wonder what Howard Dean and his favorite crapper Wyclef Jean thinks?
Will they sympathize with this women?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:00 amhere’s part of the law they’re gonna prosecute her with
here’s the package where it clearly says “Rx only” right on front
seems like an open and shut case
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:00 amWhy do people insist this is a form of abortion when the known mechanism is delay of ovulation, and is zero direct evidence there is any affect on a fertilized ovum? It doesn’t work that way. It delays ovulation. Sperm and egg miss the connection.
fertilization is not an instant thing. It can take days to occur following sexual intercourse.
Comment by Sarahw — 2/9/2012 @ 8:15 am
Because the known mechanism is not delay of ovulation.
The original mechanism of oral contraceptives (when used on a regular basis) was thought to be exclusively preventing ovulation, which indeed would be preventing fertilization, not inducing abortion.
But as the amount of hormones used in “the pill” has become less, it is clear that the prevention of ovulation is not the exclusive mechanism of the pill, but that some viable pregnancies are interrupted by the fertilized egg not being able to implant properly into the uterine wall.
The morning after pill, or multiple regular birth control pills taken together, does not work by preventing ovulation (at least not primarily). They work by preventing implantation and continued growth on the uterine wall.
To those who feel that human life begins when you have fertilization and a full complement of DNA for a unique human this is abortion, however early.
Many people do not know this, in fact I’ve known very strong pro-life advocates who were horrified when they found out the current version of the pill did not always work by preventing ovulation.
This is not more widely known because the pro-choice “atmosphere” has no desire to make it known. Likewise, I don’t believe there is any data or study trying to determine what percentage of the time there is fertilization but no implantation, or what dose of hormone would be needed to ensure prevention of ovulation.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:00 amJerold Nadler-You Catholics want to impose your beliefs on others.
Um doesn’t Nadler support the ground zero mosque?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:02 ampeople forget I think that following these types of laws is the number one best thing we can do for to preserve the over-the-counterness of this kind of drug
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:04 amThis kid is making some serious choices that her parents actually need to be aware of.
Used to be parents could count on teachers to help them, if the chance arose, to help set a kid back on the right path. Of perhaps that was naive.
I do imagine some envision public school teachers and police and nurses and cops as obligated to have a little pack of condoms and morning after pills they are required to hand out to any child who asks, with strict penalties against reaching out to parents.
Strange society we’re winding up with.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:06 am🙄 Oh for effs sake speak english.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:07 amMD in Philly, that is canard. false. There is ZERO direct evidence that Plan B has any such effect. NONE.
It is suspected in some versions of so-called “morning after” pills with a wider window of effect.
Even in that case the chief mechanism is delay of ovulation. And none of that applies to Plan B.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:14 amAnd even to hypothetically allow such an effect, a woman naturally has no obligation to create an especially fluffy or optimized uterine lining for a fertilized ovum.
None of these hormones has any effect upon a successfully. implanted ovum.
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:18 amI’m in favor of abortion in some circumstances — ie rape and to save the mother’s life — so you can say I’m pro-abortion. But I still think this teacher should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. She had no business doing what she did. In my country it is ILLEGAL for anyone who is not a doctor to give someone else prescription meds. I suspect the laws are similar in the US.
Ellie in T.O. (99c725) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:23 amSarahw,
Can you provide a link supporting your claims, or tell us your background in medicine or science that qualifies you as an expert?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:25 amAmd by the way who cares what Sheila Jackoff Lee thinks about anything?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:26 amThe Plan B product insert sets forth the Mechanism of Action (section 12.1), including that it “may inhibit implantation” after fertilization.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:35 amThe left only cares about themselves.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:40 amThe anti-semetic lie about all jews caring about their own kind really pisses me off.
This pisses me off too.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:40 am________________________________________
Steinberg, who also was a math teacher at LBJ,
I bet she’s a conservative or even a dyed-in-the-wool centrist. NOT! Surveys indicate that a high percentage (ie, 80 or more percent) of people of Jewish background are of the left. I bet she’s also extremely sympathetic with the idea that all organizations — religious ones included — should be forced to provide birth control as part of their health insurance plans.
Personally, I think insurance companies should be required to also give high-quality food to people, since a good diet is important to good health. So please start giving me and everyone else a monthly $200 gift coupon to Whole Foods.
Steinberg probably would say “hey, that’s a good, wonderful, humane, beautiful, tolerant, generous, enlightened, sophisticated, progressive idea!!!”
Mark (411533) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:50 amhttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/534040_4
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:54 amSarahw
As I do not consider “canard” a particularly strong word, I’ll consider your objection to be a polite disagreement. I am always happy to be corrected where I am mistaken about fact.
As the day goes on I will add documentation to my statements. The information I gave was/is standard knowledge among MD’s, at least it was when I was in med school and residency in the 1980’s.
I just found this interesting tidbit, but I have to go:
from: http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/english/6read/6issues/6network/v21-1/nt2111.html
Emergency contraceptive pills do not affect a fertilized egg that has been implanted in the uterus. Hence, it cannot cause an abortion.
I will (generally, for now) concede the first part of that statement, as I did not initially claim otherwise. However, I think the second part of the statement is misleading in its dogmatism. If one wishes to define “abortion” as causing the death of am implanted embryo, then the statement is correct. If one wishes to give a clear explanation of the facts so a person can understand and make their own judgement as to when it is “OK” or not to interfere with the process, then it is misleading. As I said originally, if one wishes to define the beginning of a new life when there is a fertilized egg with a full and unique DNA complement, that if the “normal” events are allowed to continue will usually eventually result in a live birth, then in honesty one would have to concede that “sounds pretty much” like an abortion.
A comment not to you, Sarahw, but to “them”, it is despicable when experts deliberately obfuscate for a political agenda. Doctors get sued for not giving appropriate information, so should everybody else who claims to give accurate information.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:56 amslide number 9
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/…/4015S1_02_Barr-Presentation.ppt
Sarahw (b0e533) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:58 amDRJ – why do you insist on being all facty?
JD (c32343) — 2/9/2012 @ 9:58 amHeh.
That would make a bigger difference. And the Whole Foods in Austin is quite awesome (but Costco is the place to go for produce). The catch is that everyone would have to pay $200 more a month + a little for admin costs.
I know you’re joking, but insurance for me is peace of mind against rare extremes, rather than a monthly bank account forcing me to spend money the way I’m “supposed to”.
Like contraception… why should a health care plan worry about something like that? I don’t even think health care plans need to cover check ups. I would like something to kick in if I have a heart attack or break a leg, but the everyday stuff… it is much more efficient if the nannies just go away.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:01 am_______________________________________________
Used to be parents could count on teachers to help them,
There’s a lot of irony about this story, since generally the utter idiocy in today’s modern era (in this time of liberalism run amok) is more likely to emanate from the parents, not the teachers. But regardless whether one is scrutinizing the parent of the student or the teacher of the student, the ideology of one of the two sides in a given situation probably will be of leftist persuasion.
^ And then we wonder why so much of the electorate — and the culture that goes with them — allows the dynamics of “Goddamn America” (aka loony leftism) to be reflected in the White House?
Mark (411533) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:08 amHeck I thought this was going to be a story about some aging male teacher giving a 16 year old cutie a morning after pill on “the morning after”. What are our schools coming to?
Comanche Voter (0e06a9) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:10 amNo story involving abortion ever becomes “big”. Ever.
How many media outfits do you know of that reported on the March for Life this year? Or any year? The March regularly occurs on the coldest day in Washington DC and yet still draws hundreds of thousands of protesters… EVERY YEAR.
And yet… not a peep.
Book (82d417) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:10 amFrom the Medscape reference:
There are three ways that hormonal EC may function to prevent pregnancy: delaying ovulation, preventing fertilization, or preventing implantation of a fertilized egg; the method of action depends on the part of the menstrual cycle the woman is in at the time of unprotected intercourse (Croxatto et al., 2001).
The FDA PowerPoint page 9 is interesting, “No direct evidence“. Perhaps one finds no evidence when one doesn’t look.
As I said originally, if you do not consider preventing a fertilized egg from implantation an abortion, then no “abortion” has occurred. If you consider the destruction of a viable fertilized egg with a unique DNA to be the equivalent of an abortion, it is a definite possibility.
I suggest erring should be on the side of giving more information and let the individual do the editorializing.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:12 am“It’s contraception, not induced abortion.”
If the target is a fertilized ovum (zygote), it’s not contra-ception. Contraception is the prevention of the formation of the zygote in the first place, by various means.
All of this, though, is just deck chairs on pro-aborts’ Titanic of an argument. As Patrick noted at the outset, for pro-aborties, Abortion Is Different because it is the sanctum sanctorum of public policy: All must get abortions, at taxpayer expense, whenever they wish, no matter their age, no matter their reasons, no matter the gestational age and health of the fetus.
Mitch (a61168) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:13 amThis is why young women need access to reproductive health.
snaps (5cb04e) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:13 amWhole Foods in Austin is not unlike a church in many ways
a church of tasty foozle
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:13 amSarahw,
Your link @ #38 didn’t work for me but based on this Google search, I think the first return is what you intended to link. Slide 9 does indeed say the mechanism of action is interference with ovulation. However, please note that Slides 1-3 state the presenter is appearing for Women’s Capital Corporation and their agenda is to move Plan B from a prescription to an OTC drug. Perhaps that’s because Plan B One-Step is a registered trademark of Women’s Capital Corporation, so they understandably want their product to be OTC.
In addition, the Plan B One-Step/Women’s Capital Corporation website links the FDA product insert (linked above in my comment 32) in the fine print at the bottom of the page. Here is another link to the FDA product insert. See section 12.1 for the product’s Mechanism of Action.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:18 amSarahw #36,
Your link goes to Medscape but I’m not a Medscape member. Can you excerpt the relevant portion so I can read it?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:21 amNever mind my comment 49. MD in Philly already quoted from and responded to it.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:23 amMD in Philly #44:
I don’t think that was an FDA-endorsed PowerPoint. Slides 1 and 2 indicate it was a presentation at an FDA Joint Advisory Committee Meeting by a physician representing Women’s Capital Corporation.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:27 amAh, there is “snaps” again.
So…are you actually “tifosa” posting under another name? Please advise.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:27 amDRJ, sarahW, and MD: this is a good, fair example of how to debate a topic. Nice job.
But it has always interested me what “litmus tests” become associated with a political party. I suppose both parties do it, and it still seems strange: adherents quickly perform a game of Logical Twister to “follow” their bumper sticker.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:29 amthe Statesman updates with some context that was previously missing
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:49 amAs I mentioned previously, during the 80’s the fact that “the pill” did not always work by inhibiting ovulation was the kind of “fine point” that would differentiate people who knew something from those who “knew the latest”. Any down-playing of this reality since then would make me question the source of the info and the intent, more than the medical facts.
An additional problem with the scenario is that while the consequence of an unintended pregnancy is prevented (fact, no comment on morality of the action), everything else that could be associated with (irresponsible?) sexual activity (especially?) in a minor such as chlamydia, gonorrhea, herpes, HPV, syphilis, HIV, issues of coercion and intimidation are not addressed. Of course, whether those would be addressed adequately in an ER or outpatient clinic setting is a fair question, as is the point that “risk reduction” is sometimes better than “doing nothing”. In any event, as important as the specific issue of “Morning after” contraception is, in one way it is really only one of many serious considerations when a 16 yo girl is distraught over sexual activity.
I wonder what life would be like today if long ago and far away in the last millennium consequences of statutory rape were enforced. Not necessarily giving a criminal prosecution of the male involved, but something of more consequence than getting to brag to his buddies.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 10:59 amthe girl’s definitely in much better shape having taken her illegal Plan B than she would be if her parents had told her no Plan B for you young lady you have to live with the consequences of your actions
so without knowing what her parents would have done it’s really hard to know how to feel about this case
and of course the presumably 16 year old or so guy is way ahead of the game too
by far the biggest loser is the coach. I’d really hate to be her.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:11 amDrugs.com:
Plan B One-Step tablets contain levonorgestrel, a female hormone that prevents ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary). Levonorgestrel also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.
PubMed:
Levonorgestrel is in a class of medications called progestins. It works by preventing the release of an egg from the ovary or preventing fertilization of the egg by sperm (male reproductive cells). It also may work by changing the lining of the uterus (womb) to prevent development of a pregnancy.
emedicinehealth.com:
Levonorgestrel is a female hormone that prevents ovulation (the release of an egg from an ovary). This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.
I think it is clear that one of the mechanisms of action of this drug is to prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg, and if you are a (real) Catholic, that is a big problem.
TomB (4bc17f) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:11 amI am not very well informed on medical issues or medicine, but are you saying there is a theory or claim that Orthotrycycline sometimes works by denying a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall?
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:17 amI mean, that’s what I thought “the pill” was, but perhaps the word means this morning after thing.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:18 amit’s important to note also I think that if it had been a 17 year old classmate what had bought the pills instead of the coach, that friend would likewise be facing incarceration in a Texas prison and looking forward to life with a felony on her record
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:27 amI have to admit, I do not respect prescription laws in many cases.
One example is that Lung Flute thing, which works simply by making a 16 hz note that resonates with whoever is blowing it. It’s a specialized harmonica, basically.
Sometimes I get the impression that these offenses are treated as harshly as real outrages, when they aren’t.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:41 amCouple things here:
— The teacher had Plan B on-hand, at school?
— The teacher accepted money from the kids in exchange for the pill?
Can you say “drug dealer preying on vulnerable children”?
Icy (eee520) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:58 amIcy, I wonder if this is simply the first time the coach was caught.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:59 amObama is continuing Bush’s spendin gpolicies but according to the left they are trying to clean bush’s mess up.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:07 pmAnd yet the left insist they are trying to clean Bush’s mess up.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:07 pmNot only that the left are against the catholic church.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:08 pm“snaps” is not titosa. It is the 6533679544th iteration of dimwit. And it nicely clarified how it hearts government assuming the role of parents.
JD (fda94d) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:28 pmI am fairly sure that this event won’t be discussed on its merits. It really has nothing to do with abortion.
Should the teacher be fired for giving prescription drugs to student (outside an emergency situation)? Certainly. If it can be proven that this was a long-standing behavior, should criminal charges be brought? Probably.
But the issue is the distribution of prescription drugs without a license to do so, and it should not matter if the drug was Plan B or if it was Lipitor. It was not a special-schedule drug like methamphetamine or Oxycodone which should be a felony in any amount.
If it was a one-off, the teacher should be fired for extremely bad judgement. It was not an emergency — she could have been referred to medical help or counseling with little risk. Note that I view sharing of rescue inhalers and such to be reasonable emergency responses.
But a felony? That seems a little overwrought. Then again, there many overwrought felonies on the books.
Kevin M (563f77) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:29 pmIf only this student and teacher were in the LAUSD, none of this would have happened, or at least come to light for the next 10-15 years.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:31 pmIf only she had an Obama 2012 prosecute Palin bumper sticker.
Or if only she had threatened to stomp on Santorum’s dead baby.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:34 pmimdw can’t quit you, JD.
Icy (eee520) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:35 pmLBJ High School in Austin is a minority-majority school. Of the students there, 98.1% are considered one of two minorities, black or Hispanic and of the 1006 students there in 2010, 79% were considered “financially” disenfranchised, meaning that almost 80% of the entire student body gets free lunches, and breakfast as well.
The Austin Fire Department has had a training program at LBJ trying to recruite minority students to be future Austin Fire Fighters for years. Although the program has been a disaster, with less than 10 applicants ever, the city continues to dump money into the program paying off-duty firefighters to teach kids that really have no interest in being a fire fighter after graduating from high school. It is just another example of the left wing mindset of Austin.
I doubt this teacher will suffer any ramifications from her decision to usurp parental authority. After all, Austin is one of the most liberal cities in the nation (it is not called the San Francisco of the Southwest for no reason). Now, had she dispensed a Tylenol, or a Midol tablet, she would have lost her job as she should have sent the student to the nurse’s station so the nurse could call the parents for approval to give their kid an over-the-counter medication.
The teacher should not only be fired, she should have her certificate revoked. She basically dealt in an illegal prescription drug to a minor student.
retire05 (3f581e) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:36 pmWell that does tie this to the other thread, AD, Romer moved on from Colorado, to be the ghoul overseeing the LA County schools, oh frabjous joy.
narciso (87e966) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:39 pmShe would be respected.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:54 pmTifosa ps probably the 495,659,492,203rd sockpuppet of Dimwit.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:55 pmThat’s a lot of background info I didn’t know, Retire.
Education funding in Austin is an ongoing issue.
It really can be strange out here, where a city surrounded by a highly functional state continues to try to do things the wrong way.
Elitism in a nutshell.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:56 pmCorrection:
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 2/9/2012 @ 12:58 pmRomer was the Superintendent of the Los Angeles Unified School District, which just covers the City and some fringe areas, and is seperate from the L.A. Co. Department of Education.
There are probably a good three dozen school districts (more or less) in L.A. Co. – all independent of each other.
Oh great forcing banks to buy homes for homeowners.
And it doesn’t go far enough for the left’s eyes.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:03 pmis*
Awwwwwwwwwww jeesh spelling errors………I suck at
the interwebz.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:04 pmI’m beginning to despise Maobama.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:04 pmUm, in what way is the ground zero mosque imposing anything on others? On the contrary, forcibly preventing the property owners from building what they like on it would be imposing our belief on them. In this case I’m OK with that, because NYC already has a whole rigmarole of zoning laws, and because I don’t believe the mosque people come with clean hands, and because we’re at war; but I don’t pretend that they’re the ones trying to impose their will on us. They’re just wanting to build something on their own property, which all good conservatives should in principle support.
Milhouse (d7842d) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:08 pmDustin-
Without references, but my gestalt from med school and residency:
Originally it was thought that birth control pills worked (exclusively) by preventing ovulation, the maturing and release of an egg by the ovary. When pregnancy occurs there is an increase in the production of female hormones estrogen and progesterone which tell the brain, “Hey! We’re pregnant down here, don’t signal the ovary to produce another egg this month or things might get confusing.” “The pill” essentially tells the brain the same thing and prevents ovulation. Now, at some point as the dose of hormones in the pill is reduced, the pill remains just as effective at preventing pregnancy even though the brain doesn’t always get the message straight and sends signals to the ovary to produce an egg (ovulate) anyway.
So, people who looked at this figured that the pill also has an effect in making the cervical mucous thicker so sperm have a harder time swimming upstream to get to the egg, and that even if the egg does get fertilized, the lining of the uterus has not developed normally to allow the egg (now actually no longer a single cell egg) to attach and become a living pregnancy.
Now, at the time if you pressed people on how frequent this was, they would say, “…sometimes…” (that was the official answer). As far as I know, things haven’t significantly changed from there. Strong pro-life people aren’t interested in taking the risk of aborting a fertilized egg, even if the risk is small, pro-choice people don’t care one way or another, and no one is interested enough and has the money to figure out for sure just for the sake of figuring it out.
If there is more definitive information out there that I don’t know about I’m happy to see it.
In some ways this is similar to the ethics of in-vitro fertilization. I don’t think many people in general realized that thousands and thousands of early stage embryos were being produced and frozen for possible later use (by the infertile couple or by someone else for a pregnancy or by someone else for “lab tissue”). It seems apparent that for the docs involved there was no ethical issue identified so there was nothing to talk about. (Unless, of course, some suspected there might be an issue if enough people knew what was going on, so kept it quiet). All of a sudden there was this supply of “unused embryos” around that most had no idea existed until some scientists wanted to use them for research (under Clinton, BTW) and were told to hold up.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:08 pmChris Christie supports NCLB?
Why doesn’t that surprise me he is nothing but a fat bloviating dillweed.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:08 pmYes paulnut I expected your hypocrisy to come through.
If that were a Jewish group trying to build a synagogue you’d be outraged.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:10 pmDustin, the AISD is a disaster. It ranks 2nd from the bottom in Region 13. 70% minority, 63.5% economically disadvantaged. Drop out rate – 24.4%, TAS test results – of the 72.9% that took the test in 2010, only 36.2% met test criterion. The Superintendent of the school district earns $283,412/yr, $133K more than the Governor of Texas and that doesn’t include benefits or the bonuses given by the AISD school board.
LBJ also has a policy of giving special academic attention to those kids who are on their football/basketball teams, while the other kids are allowed to fall through the cracks.
If I lived in Austin, I would sell my house and live in a one bedroom shack to send my kid to another school. But fortunately, my kids went to school in a district that is 2nd from the top in the Region, has a less than 9% drop out rate and sees most kids proficient in the TAS.
retire05 (3f581e) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:16 pmUm, what language is that in? It looks tantalisingly like English, as if it ought to be comprehensible, and yet it lies just beyond the line. I’ve heard that Friesian is the closest language to English; is that what you are writing in?
Milhouse (d7842d) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:25 pmMD, thanks for that detailed answer. Something to think about.
Retire, I did not realize the difference was that great. I wonder how much AISD wastes on bureaucracy.
One thing Mitch Daniels gets a lot of credit for is school vouchers. I think a lot of Texas schools are actually very effective, but perhaps Austin kids would do better in a voucher program.
It still baffles me how much money it’s supposed to take to teach kids, when what you really need is a book, a room, a teacher, and the ability to flunk people.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/9/2012 @ 1:27 pmExcuse me? Who was that addressed to, and what on earth does it mean? Unpack it, please, so I know whether to be furious or amused.
Milhouse (d7842d) — 2/9/2012 @ 2:22 pmYou.
Just pointing out how church and state goes one way with you people.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:02 pmMD in Philly- Thanks for the detailed info.
sickofrinos (44de53) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:11 pmIf the comments here are still moderated, how vile and ad hominem does one have to be in order to be banned?
There are a number of very bright people with whom I’ve engaged in serious, funny, and educational conversations. But I find myself simply skipping the comments section here more and more, because the same two or three miscreants abuse our host’s hospitality with increasing frequency.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:19 pmSorry if I abused the host’s hospitality with authority.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:26 pmBeldar,
Are you reading the same thread I am? I thought probably 90% of the thread was reasonable and on topic. I’ve seen much worse.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:27 pmYou must not recognize the romneyphobes not wanting Mitt’s children.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 3:43 pmMD in Philly, I was referring to trends in this blog’s comments section for some considerable time, not just to this thread. And some of the culprits I had in mind haven’t yet weighed in on this thread, which is why I can still bear to read it. I try to address myself here to those who haven’t forfeited my respect, but it seems that an increasing share of the comments here come from those who’ve not merely forfeited any right to respect but actively work at being offensive — frequently making no pretense of a fig leaf of an argument, nothing but nasty, personal, and vicious attacks.
I feel like I need a long, hot shower after reading some of the comments here, which certainly is a disincentive to reading or commenting myself.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:01 pmAnd I’m just venting. Decisions on whether and how to moderate belong, properly, to the proprietor and the able and stable friends he’s shared the keys with. I’m not intending to criticize them, and apologize for any inference to that effect. Rather, I’m lamenting the diminished likelihood that I’ll still be reading interesting comments from the likes of you and the many others I’ve had thoughtful conversations with here over many years, because my own tolerance level for some of these nasty creatures is too regularly exceeded here.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:04 pmMilhouse:
Um, what language is that in?
It’s Blackwhite.
“Reproductive Health” in the context of this thread means “stopping reproduction by contraception or abortion,” but that doesn’t sound as good.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (a18ddc) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:07 pmUnderstood beldar.
Many of us think our host’s generosity has been taken advantage of.
There actually is a way to block comments by specific authors, but I haven’t done it, I’ve just learned to ignore some people
If interested in the blocking program, i’m sure someone will post the info
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:23 pmPlan B causes a variety of hemorrhages as a part of its natural action. There’s a reason it’s prescription only, but everyone who receives it has to be warned of the symptoms, know what to expect, and when to get to a hospital if things go wrong.
Plan B isn’t as bad as RU-486 supposedly, but it is still a dangerous high-dose hormone. Absolutely nothing that should be given out by a teacher or over the counter.
luagha (5cbe06) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:27 pmGet off of my lawn 😉
JD (fda94d) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:30 pmHeh, yeah, J.D., since my buddy Walt Kowalski got kidnapped by the bad guys last Sunday, I’ve been pretty touchy about — and broad to define — that lawn.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:34 pmDear Beldar: I feel your pain. But it’s not my living room.
I think that many people still confuse honesty with tactlessness, crudity with strength, and so forth.
Thus, like you, I respect many posters here, and just scan until I find them.
Simon Jester (a9dcc5) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:37 pmThis story has been picked up at MSNBC, Fox News, the UK Daily Mail, and at the Huffington Post. Four of the first five comments at HuffPo are exactly what Patterico predicted:
To his or her credit, the fourth commenter objected and said what the teacher did was wrong — and even analogized it to other drugs as Patterico did in the post.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:38 pmLater, the student texted Steinberg and said she was nauseous, light-headed and experiencing back pain, the affidavit said. The student also said she was frightened, the affidavit said.
Didn’t see that one coming…
Colonel Haiku (69ead5) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:46 pmAs far as the actual topic of this post:
Once felony charges were on file, the case was certain to grab public attention. I think it’s still likely that prosecutors would show some substantial flexibility in plea negotiations. But if they have in-hand the kind of evidence suggested by this news report, and if there’s not some other hidden aspect to the case that would intervene meaningfully, there are already permanent consequences. The young woman’s career as a public school teacher is probably over, and should be. Indeed, it would not surprise me at all if prosecutors insist that any plea be to a felony. But I will be surprised if much jail time is involved, astonished if any state prison time is involved, and unsurprised if almost all the resulting jail sentence were probated.
Even in Austin a/k/a Sodom on the Colorado a/k/a Berkeley East, this can’t now just be hushed up and pleaded out on some trivial misdemeanor offense.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:47 pmMy other reaction, to the reaction of lefties like DRJ quotes above (#102):
This is a classic example of the lefties re-manufacturing their “reality-based community” to conform to their politics.
They want abortion-on-demand at government expense via something as simple and universal as an aspirin tablet. Because they want this so badly, they simply pretend that these new drugs are entirely uncomplicated, riskfree, and uncontroversial.
But yet they will simultaneously insist on a draconian set of nanny-state regulations that criminalize a public school employee so much as donating a literal aspirin tablet to a student with a headache.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 4:55 pmWouldn’t it be wonderful, Beldar, if the people making those comments were financially responsible for any medical issues resulting from their cheerleading?
Interesting bit. Why are tattoos pretty much impossible for a teenager to get without a parent’s permission? But this kind of thing is okay?
Worth thinking about, huh?
Simon Jester (a9dcc5) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:00 pmSimon, from the Austin American-Statesman story Patterico linked:
The “school police” didn’t hush this up, and the school administration was obviously involved in the imposition of administrative leave. I would be very, very surprised if during those deliberations, no one argued the far leftie position (“Coach Steinberg is a hero!”).
But somewhere in the room was a school lawyer or loss-prevention specialist or the like. These parents are already likely to sue both the teacher and the school district as her employer. So considerations of civil liability have already almost certainly have affected what’s played out thus far, and they’re likely to continue to do so.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:15 pmBeldar,
I don’t get a chance to read the comments much lately. Could you identify the people who are bothering you this much — in comments, or by email if you prefer — and I will consider at least moderating their comments.
Patterico (13e9ba) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:21 pmAccording to a police affidavit, Steinberg noticed a 16-year-old student crying in her class. The student explained that she had unprotected sex with her boyfriend and was scared she might be pregnant.
The affidavit shows that Steinberg went to Planned Parenthood office at 183 and Burnet Road and purchased an emergency contraceptive that she gave to the girl.
It’s interesting to note that lack of respect for parental authority Steinberg evidenced from the get-go. Apparently her students are following suit, as shown by students supporting Steinberg’s actions,
One student wrote, “If your teacher is not concerned…shouldn’t that be a problem? Don’t prosecute her for simply doing her job.”
The underlying belief that some (most?) teachers see themselves as surrogate parents rather than educators and believe they have the right to make parental decisions should raise an alarm. That kids are buying into this, even moreso.
Dana (4eca6e) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:23 pmMD in Philly, really appreciate your comments and knowledge in this thread. It provided necessary context.
Dana (4eca6e) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:24 pmThat’s more consideration than I’d ask on only my own behalf, Patterico, but thank you nevertheless. You’ve many other devoted readers — some of them also frequent targets of these ad hominem attacks — who’d be as good or better a source than I would in compiling that list.
I might, instead, suggest a modest change in your stylesheet when you next get around to tweaking the site. You might automatically start each new comment with a thin margin-to-margin horizontal line, and then put the commenter’s name in bold as a preface to the comment (next to the comment number), rather that at the end of the comment. That makes it much easier to tell at a glance where any given comment begins and ends, and much easier to immediately skip past the comments left by those who have already proven themselves (in the reader’s subjective opinion) a waste of time and interest.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:31 pmBoy, did I choose the wrong time to make comments…
Dana (4eca6e) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:36 pmHear hear.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:53 pmHappy to be able to contribute some expertise in exchange for the ton of info I get here.
If I may, I’ll try to say this in what sounds respectful, because it is meant to be.
Sarahw was simply quoting information by experts as would be expected by any intelligent person who did not have the specialty training to see how things were being represented, in what I believe to be purposefully deceitful. I do not know how someone could use the descriptions given without trying to cloud, instead of clarify, the situation.
Even if it was true that only 1 in a hundred uses of EC results in the death of a fertilized egg, that is still information that should be made clear for people to make their own decisions on what to do about it.
Such deceitful “scientific” discussion has been seen in the Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine. Of course, once something is published in such a place it is harder for the average person to refute.
An example of how far such tortured science is taken can be found in:
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:54 pmEdward C Green, Broken Promises: How the AIDS Establishment Has Betrayed the Developing World
It ought to be required reading of every thinking person that can read English, not so much because of the specific topic, but because it is a documented exposition of how political sentiment (in this case liberal) has totally overwhelmed critical thought and rational decision making. Dr. Green is quick to “give his credentials” as anything but a conservative but his intellectual honesty has required of him to declare the truth. (He was voted in high school to be “Most likely to be murdered by a jealous spouse”).
I hope I did not cause Beldar discomfort.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:55 pmMy post didn’t show up on the comment page.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 5:55 pmDid Patterico ban me?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:06 pmJust like the autism hoax, with the vaccines, caused as much illness and death, as the supposed
narciso (87e966) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:21 pmillness, or the result of the denial of customary
health protocols in San Francisco in the late 70s.
Interesting and elucidating discussion here on this topic, thanks largely to MD in Philly’s contributions. I hadn’t known that much how
I thought sarahw was off-base from the get-go when she told us that fertilization can sometimes take several days, therefore the morning after pill can’t be an abortifacient. It’s as if she thinks that fertilization never takes place between the sex act and “the morning after” when the pill is taken. In fact, fertilization can happen within a half-hour of male ejaculation.
But all of this stands apart from my intended comment, which is that I am sure Coach Steinberg will be on the short list for a “Hero of Planned Parenthood” award. They may even hook her up with a job at the Komen Foundation, seeing as how they have that organization on such a short leash.
JVW (4d72aa) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:45 pmSarahW said that?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:47 pmThe vaccine hoax is not really a true parallel; the mainstream medical community, to my knowledge, never supported not giving vaccines. The advocates consisted of one physician who was later discovered to be a fraud, most of the efforts at discovery coming from other doctors, some other MDs on the fringe, and some very loud celebrity advocates like Robert Kennedy and Jenny McCarthy.
If there is an establishment fraud involved in autism, look in the direction of anyone who claims we need to find a cure for autism, especially in connection with fundraising efforts…
But if I take away a fraud, I’ll proffer an other one–the Lancet’s fraudulent article claiming to give a firm number of how many people died in the Iraq War.
JBS (827a72) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:48 pmOh yeah, fertilization can take a couple of days of the egg floating around in the fallopian tubes and the sperm swimming around and all.
Which is one reason it doesn’t make sense for the morning after pill to work only against ovulation. Ovulation has already happened, sperm already swimming around, but the morning after pill still will work, by preventing implantation, which is “not” abortion according to some, even though it is the unnatural death of a new unique human life.
sarahw wasn’t off base, just misled by “experts” who did her an injustice
Kind of like someone not a lawyer not reading the fine print of a legal document… 😉
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:53 pmYes, JBS, that article (actually 2, I believe eventually) was faulty. In one way it was a double insult as it came from Johns Hopkins School of Public Health which is among the best.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 6:56 pmAgreed that fertilization can take a few days; my point was that it can also happen as quickly as 30 minutes. Therefore, to claim as sarahw did that “fertilization is not an instant thing. It can take days to occur following sexual intercourse,” is to only tell a very selective part of the story and not account for the possibility that the teenage girl in this instance was carrying a fertilized egg when she took the morning after pill.
JVW (4d72aa) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:07 pmOr lawyers chasing ambulances.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:10 pmTrue, JVW. Sorry for confusing the point, thanks for the clarification.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:13 pmJVW did SarahW explain why she said that?
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:20 pmWhen a young lady in distress needs comfort and wise, life-affirming counsel, you can bet that a lefty will be there to promote destruction, a choice that will hold potentially severe mental health consequences and the easy way out.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Colonel Haiku (69ead5) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:22 pmDohbiden is moderated, not banned, for the comment he made above seemingly referring to Jews as “you people.” He has crossed the line far too many times, and I have no choice but to moderate him. Comments will appear, but when I get around to releasing them (or someone else does). It is wearisome to have to do this, but I believe it is necessary.
Patterico (13e9ba) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:23 pmI apologize for my comments they were wrong ok.
Dohbiden (ef98f0) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:26 pm____________________________________________
Four of the first five comments at HuffPo are exactly what Patterico predicted
What’s hilarious (but also sickening) about such people is many, if not almost all, of them are the same types who will be bothered about individuals choosing to smoke (but tobacco and not necessarily marijuana), or sell their horses to rendering plants, or raise ducks for fois gras, or put up Christman trees in public and calling them “Christmas trees,” or cater to customers (of a dating service or businesses involved in weddings) if they’re straight and not into same-sex relationships.
But when single, underaged kids choose to have abortions without parental consent, or get contraceptives without parental consent, or have teachers secretly give them morning-after pills, the concept of free, personal, unfettered choice suddenly becomes so wonderful, humane, lovely, generous, beautiful, sophisticated, noble, heartfelt, heart-warming, kind-hearted, tolerant, progressive, wonderful, humane, generous—so awesomely, fabulously liberal.
Mark (411533) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:38 pmI think calling Plan B dangerous is stretching the evidence far beyond reality
this deal where 17 year olds need a prescription is an entirely political calculation, and very likely a necessary one if the tool is to remain available to women over the counter
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:46 pmSchool practices in Texas: I talked to a friend of mine today who has two kids in public schools in Texas; one in grade school and one in his first year of high school.
I asked her about medication restrictions. She told me this: if her son has a headache, the school nurse is required to call her before administering a Tylenol. For her daughter, who goes into anaphylactic shock if stung by a bee or wasp, she had to sign a document, also signed by her GP, that the child could be given Benadryl for the allergic reaction.
If the kids are on any kind of medication, the entire bottle has to be sent to the school nurse, along with a doctor’s statement to its administration.
Teachers are NOT allowed to give any type of medication, not even an aspirin or Tylenol. Only the school nurse can do that. And only after first checking with the parent.
This teacher should be decertified and never allowed to teach again.
retire05 (3f581e) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:54 pmI think “Plan A” should be freely and easily available without a prescription. It can be in the form of a booklet, a mini-CD, a mini-DVD, a downloadable MP3 file, a mini-flash drive, and any other medium of choice.
In it will be the life stories of people who chose not to have sex until they were old enough to handle the responsibilty, and stories of those whose lives demonstrate not so much.
Amazing things can happen when one acts like a human being with the ability to make choices instead of a creature governed by the whim of impulse; unless of course one thinks that certain types are unable to act like a human being, discrimination by low expectation and all that.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/9/2012 @ 7:57 pmI thought school teachers were supposed to be smart.
Dave Surls (46b08c) — 2/9/2012 @ 11:49 pmHuh? You’ll have to unpack that if you want me to understand it. I don’t know whether you’re a filthy antisemitic piece of shite, or just a clown.
Milhouse (9a4c23) — 2/10/2012 @ 12:02 amOK, I’ve seen the apology above. But I still don’t know what the comment actually meant. Also I honestly don’t understand what’s so offensive about the phrase “you people”. I know Ross Perot got into trouble for using it, but I don’t know why. Surely it depends what one says about “you people”, not on the phrase itself. In this case I don’t know what it was Dohbiden meant to say about my people; I get the feeling it wasn’t complimentary, but I don’t know that for sure because I found it cryptic and too densely packed.
Milhouse (9a4c23) — 2/10/2012 @ 12:25 amMr. Feet (#133), “dangerous” depends a lot on where you’re standing. The same drug that’s considered “safe and effective” when used as prescribed under a physician’s care and with that physician’s instructions may be deadly when misused or misadministered; indeed, it may turn out to be deadly despite said physician’s best judgment and efforts in a small, but statistically significant, number of individual cases. If it’s your 14 year old daughter who has the adverse reaction or the massive side effect or the life-threatening complication, then it’s small comfort that 99-point-something percent of the other patients taking the Plan B drug (or any prescription drug, for that matter) had no problems. And the risks need to be disclosed, effectively and to someone who has legal capacity to make a valid decision after weighing them.
I don’t have the medical education or expertise to debate how risky the Plan B drug is. I don’t think there is any serious dispute, though, that it has sufficient risks to be considered “dangerous,” and I’m skeptical whether it ever ought to be offered on a non-prescription basis, just as a matter of managing risks to patients (i.e., leaving aside all of the implications about its intended effect on a pregnancy or potential pregnancy).
Beldar (596a92) — 2/10/2012 @ 12:38 amMD in Philly, what do you make of the fact that the NIH appears to list only one specific contraindication for the Plan B drug? They say: “Plan B is contraindicated for use in the case of known or suspected pregnancy.”
I gather they’re saying not to use it if you’re worried about harming a wanted fetus. Maybe there are usages and professional terms of art here that are beyond my knowledge and understanding. But this seems to my lay eyes as a sad example of Cruel Irony in the Age of Obama.
Note, too, from later in the same document: “Safety and efficacy are expected to be the same for postpubertal adolescents under the age of 16 and for users 16 years and older.” Doesn’t that translate to “We don’t actually have enough meaningful test data on girls under sixteen, so we’re working on the assumption that it’ll be the same?” Or are they using weasel words even though they actually have sound data?
“Use of Plan B emergency contraception before menarche [a girl’s first menstrual period] is not indicated,” says the NIH, and of course, that varies from individual to individual over a range of ages, but what I’ve read suggests that the median age is between 12 and 13, and there are cases of so-called “precocious puberty” below age 8. The idea of giving the Plan B drug to fifth-graders (or younger) troubles me for several different reasons, and the medical experts would have to work pretty hard to convince me that would be justifiable.
Beldar (596a92) — 2/10/2012 @ 1:46 amI thought school teachers were supposed to be smart.
Comment by Dave Surls — 2/9/2012 @ 11:49 pm
— Since when?
Icy (eee520) — 2/10/2012 @ 2:29 amIt’s similar to saying that you and others of some group are being judged for membership in the group, generalized and stereotyped. It comes across as a confession of prejudice.
Dustin (401f3a) — 2/10/2012 @ 4:14 amBeldar-
(First, a reminder of what has been assumed but not said explicitly, that nothing of what I say is intended as medical advice for an individual but as general information for education.)
Second, I try to make clear when I am working from a general knowledge base vs. specific reference. I am always eager to get information contrary to what I’ve said. I have never prescribed birth control pills for this use or Plan B.
In general, medical folk treat a patient who is pregnant as if they will carry the child to term, unless the specific action is intended to end the pregnancy. People change their minds, things happen, so the general policy is don’t put the unborn child at risk because you expect the person to “get an abortion next week anyway”.
The serious risks of hormonal treatment include things like increased risk of blood clots which occur over a period of time. The short burst of increased female hormone associated with Plan B is “very unlikely” (“never say never”) to do anything other than the following:
1. short term side effect of nausea and related symptoms
2. stopping the ovary from “ripening” an egg and releasing it for possible fertilization
3. changing conditions within the uterus (thickening mucous, altering the uterine lining) to prevent fertilization and implantation of a fertilized egg
If used during pregnancy, there are concerns on how it might affect the formation of genitalia and urinary systems (and perhaps uterine/placenta function, but I’m “extrapolating” here).
While it is possible that a girl/young woman would become pregnant at the time of her first ovulation, hence “not get a period before becoming pregnant”, it obviously would not be typical, hence little reason to give prior to onset of menstruation.
That said, almost all of medicine is a calculated risk/benefit assessment. Unusual situations sometimes call for unusual action.
“Precocious puberty” occurs, when secondary sexual characteristics develop younger than average, including onset of menstruation, without any specific medical “disorder”. Onset of puberty, like height, varies over a wide range dependent on genetics, nutrition, general health, etc.
Unless there is a specific need for a medication to be used in children, testing is avoided.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/10/2012 @ 5:45 amMr. Beldar I think what’s bugging at me is that I’m dubious about the idea that a drug what is legally considered not dangerous for 17 year olds is actually for reals more dangerouser for 16 and a half year olds.
It just seems really unlikely.
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/10/2012 @ 7:36 amDohBiden has been taken out of moderation and simply banned.
Pro tip: if you are warned about your comments and told you are being put into moderation, don’t choose that day to say something else far more egregious.
It’s enough to make me wonder if the guy is for real, or is some liberal plant.
Patterico (13e9ba) — 2/10/2012 @ 7:37 amPatterico, that theory would explain why many recent discussions have degenerated, as Beldar pointed out. After all, there’s an election coming up and the lefties are certainly going to up the disinformation.
Maybe now this blog can return to abnormal.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (4ccf3b) — 2/10/2012 @ 7:48 amfeets-
lots of things need a line, and it has to be put somewhere
When I graduated from medical school we joked about how much we must have learned overnight, because one day we were “just a med student”, and next day, “doctor”
And the lines sometimes are arbitrary. There are some 19 year olds that can drink beer more responsibility than some 25 year olds, but the rumor is liquor license boards are not enchanted by such reasoning.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/10/2012 @ 8:15 amarbitrary yes yes yes – I’m just suggesting that maybe this particular arbitrary line is maybe more political than medical
which is fine with me cause for reals the only way this drug remains as available as it is will be if people don’t feed it to other people’s kids
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 2/10/2012 @ 8:21 amStupid parents. Stupider girl and boy. Even stupider teacher. Criminally stupid on all their parts. Felony stupid, for not taking the girl to the ER? I think that has to be the prosecutor.
htom (412a17) — 2/10/2012 @ 8:40 amThis one does.
And congrats on removing Dohbiden from the comments.
carlitos (49ef9f) — 2/10/2012 @ 2:45 pmPatterico:
Oh, I think you have several of those haunting your comments.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:18 pmfelonies go down on your permanent record
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:20 pmThis person most assuredly deserves to have this on their permanent record.
JD (318f81) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:48 pmyes but I feel very sorry for her first of all she is not an attractive girl and second of all she will no longer be able to pursue her chosen career and then on top of that she will be a felon, likely a felon with large legal debts
and bad credit
and nobody will ever love her
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:50 pmAt the risk of stereotyping female high school basketball coaches who seem to lean a little toward the feminist side of things, she may indeed find someone to love her. Just not of the male persuasion.
carlitos (49ef9f) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:53 pmlove will out
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 2/10/2012 @ 3:56 pmPart of the problem here is our failure to grasp that teenagers aren’t children.
They are adults, albeit inexperienced ones with an inflated sense of their own understanding of the world. This is, in fact, a fairly natural order of things.
Hence, they ARE going to screw up, and, as this girl did, both literally and significantly.
So the real question here is, why did she feel so terrified of her parents that she would not go to them with the matter…?
A 16yo certainly ought to be able to see the doctor about sex without parental permission, and to get access to both birth control and counseling without parental permission. And yeah, if it’s going to be legal, ditto for abortion.
I say that as someone who believes abortion should be discouraged, but is and should be a matter of choice given current knowledge of the matter. The arguments against it are religious in nature and in no way factual, entailing usually one or more of three arguments:
a) It will become human, therefore it IS human.
b) It looks like a human, therefore it IS human.
c) The Bible says ‘x’, and that’s good enough for me.
The first two are blatantly specious. I can make a statue look human, that doesn’t make it so. And it’s nominally possible to take the DNA from a skin cell to cause it to grow into a human, does that mean it’s immoral to kill skin cells?
The third is clearly religious, and has no business as a basis for law.
Teens will have sex. The proper way to address this is the same as drugs, alcohol, and smoking — peer pressure, not law, should be the avenue society uses to discourage such. In acking that fact, The Law should reflect it and respond sensibly, not as parents wanting their little babies to stay little babies forever would have it be.
I Got Bupkis, Fomenter of "small-l" libertarianism (8e2a3d) — 2/12/2012 @ 5:04 pm“The first two are blatantly specious. I can make a statue look human, that doesn’t make it so. And it’s nominally possible to take the DNA from a skin cell to cause it to grow into a human, does that mean it’s immoral to kill skin cells?”
Talk about specious… your hypothetical would only be apt if discussing destroying semen samples or harvested eggs.
ACM (1176ba) — 2/12/2012 @ 5:42 pmSince we were discussing “good faith” elsewhere, I generally consider “IGB” to post in such a way.
I think the technology of being able to take the DNA from a skin cell and turn it into a human is not so straight forward. Yes, there is the idea that one could remove the DNA from a fertilized egg, put DNA from another human cell in it and it should develop, right? But I don’t think it is that easy.
A more important distinction, however, is in considering what would “normally happen” without human intervention. A human egg, once fertilized, is on a trajectory, if “left alone”, to divide, implant into the uterine wall, and grow until ready to be born as a human infant. No other human cell has such a destiny.
Of course it is true that many pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, many so early that the woman may not have known she was pregnant, but I think that scientific fact is of little consequence in discussing this matter.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/12/2012 @ 6:07 pmIGB:
I disagree with your statements:
1. Let’s assume this teen was terrified of her parents because they would beat her for having sex. Frankly, you have no reason to assume this — after all, the report says the mother reported this to the police and it doesn’t indicate the family assaulted or did anything criminal to their daughter. This doesn’t sound like a family that would hurt their daughter.
But even if they did, I submit the daughter’s solution would be to abstain from sex until she’s no longer a minor and can legally get away from her parents. Is this “fair” when other teens can engage in sex while she can’t, because she fears her parents? I’m sure the teen thinks it isn’t fair but life is full of unfairness, and the sooner she learns to change her behavior to avoid problems, the better.
2. Furthermore, teens don’t have to have sex. They can abstain but society doesn’t encourage them to. In fact, in many ways, society encourages them not to abstain. And before you remind me that these are kids with poor impulse control, remember — you’re the one arguing they aren’t children, they’re inexperienced adults. I’m not sure I agree with you on this, but under your theory then it’s time they get some experience and learn a good life lesson about sex and consequences.
3. Finally, if your general argument is correct, why not eliminate every criminal law and rely instead on peer pressure? If it works for teens, why won’t it work for every person and offense?
Overall, I think your analysis is backwards: Parents who don’t want “their little babies to stay little babies” make them deal with life and its consequences. Suggesting teenagers are powerless to control themselves so they need special rules is the definition of being a baby.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/13/2012 @ 12:41 pm