Patterico's Pontifications

12/15/2011

MittMentum

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:38 am



The Washington Examiner endorses Mitt Romney, deeming him the only Republican who can beat Obama:

And so conservatives now have a crucial choice in the most important election since 1860. They would do well to recall the good advice of William F. Buckley Jr., who said that whenever two or more candidates claiming to be ideological soul mates are seeking endorsement, conservatives should support the one most likely to win. Buckley’s admonition is doubly important, now that the 2012 Republican presidential race has become a two-man race between Romney and Gingrich. The Washington Examiner believes Romney can defeat Obama, but Gingrich cannot. And Romney the businessman is far better suited to the nation’s highest office — by temperament, experience, and cast of mind — than Gingrich the consummate Washington insider. By fits and starts over the years, Romney has become the reliable conservative that America so badly needs at this crucial moment in her history.

It’s the fits and starts that give conservatives fits, of course.

This follows shortly on the heels of Ann Coulter backing Romney and calling him tied with Bachmann for the title of most conservative Republican still standing.

Meanwhile, Romney is attacking Newt as zany and very wealthy. (Horrors!) Maybe Mitt should bet Newt ONE MEEELLION DOLLARS at the next debate.

I think we’re stuck with this guy. I don’t hold out much hope that he will accomplish anything significant in the way of fixing our financial mess that is killing our children’s futures. But I guarantee you he’ll appoint better Supreme Court Justices than Obama.

397 Responses to “MittMentum”

  1. The first primary bell hasn’t even rung yet. How the hell can we be in a two man race already?

    Oh, that’s right, we’re not. They just keep telling us that. “it’s a two man race between Romney and bachmann! Oh, wait, perry is in? Two person race! Romney and perry! Shit, he’s flubbing… Cain! Get Cain in here! Romney vs Cain! Wait, Cain did what with someone other than his wife? Can’t support him, so bring out Newt! Two man race! Newt vs Romney!”

    The only one who has dropped out is T-Paw. Other than that, it’s still a 7 or so man race.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  2. I really don’t care for Romney but above everything else we need Obama out of office. This 3rd party/I won’t vote for candidate x talk scares me.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  3. Interesting framing by the Washington Examiner’s editors. The Buckley Rule says choose the most conservative person who can get elected, not the candidate most likely to win.

    There hasn’t even been one vote yet. Beltway Republicans must really be desperate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  4. It does make you wonder who they are writing for,
    the precinct goers in Iowa, they might gain some traction, in New Hampshire, but Florida, S Carolina.

    narciso (87e966)

  5. “…Meanwhile, Romney is attacking Newt as zany…”

    Actually, this is not true. NYT “reporter” Zeleny tricked Romney into using that word. See The American Spectator. Romney ought to be more careful when he is talking to a reporter who is a communist IMO.

    Fred Beloit (4edfb1)

  6. It is going to be like 2008 all over again. For example, if Romney does get the nominee, the GOP will lose the election in 2012 and Obama will be in the White House again in his second term for the next four more years. The conservatives will stay at home on Election Day and not vote for Romney.

    m (0f62c3)

  7. I don’t hold out much hope that he will accomplish anything significant in the way of fixing our financial mess

    No candidate can. There aren’t enough conservatives to get a conservative solution, the same holds for the liberals… and the hardliners on both sides will preclude any middle ground from being agreed upon.

    steve (369bc6)

  8. Romney is unprincipled and cowardly just like the last nominee. So this is like a pattern.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  9. No candidate can. There aren’t enough conservatives to get a conservative solution, the same holds for the liberals… and the hardliners on both sides will preclude any middle ground from being agreed upon.

    Do I hear the word “Balkanization”?

    Horatio (e2e328)

  10. Mitt Romney is bashing wealth with lame class warfare arguments?

    Well that’s no surprise. Mitt Romney is an admitted conservative.

    We should nominate the most conservative candidate who can win. That’s Rick Perry. I think in 2012, Perry can beat Obama because he’s the jobs governor.

    I also think Romney’s recent campaign disasters have been one after another, and his record of losing all but one election he’s attempted is well deserved.

    Since Romney is a sell professed progressive who at times has sounded like the president of planned parenthood, Michael Mann, and Sarah Brady, he is automatically ruled out from the Buckley rule.

    Supporting Mitt Romney over Barack Obama is like supporting Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama. Yes, that would be an improvement, and if that truly is the best we can hope for, then I guess we should go for it. But for the GOP primary, we should make sure to give America a conservative option, and let the democrats pick the liberal option.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  11. Well that’s no surprise. Mitt Romney is an admitted conservative.

    And the bartender said: we don’t serve your typo around here.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  12. I don’t hold out much hope that he will accomplish anything significant in the way of fixing our financial mess that is killing our children’s futures.

    For that to happen it takes a solidly conservative Congress which is unlikely any time soon. It wouldn’t matter if Ron Paul is President if the Congress won’t go along.

    Gerald A (7d960d)

  13. It’s worth noting that Mitt Romney endorsed 100 MA state legislature candidates and they all lost.

    If you’re worried about getting more conservatives in congress, then the credibility of a candidate with conservatives is even more important.

    Will red staters come out to support Romney’s endorsements in 2014? Will liberals? Will moderates? The answer is no to all three, as very few people think Romney is sincere. Sure, he’s slick, but you know he’s being slick.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  14. _____________________________________________

    calling him tied with Bachmann for the title of most conservative Republican still standing.

    I don’t see any evidence that any of the leading candidates (current or former) are anything but ideologically squishy—Romney more so than Cain, Gingrich more so than Bachmann, Perry more so than Santorum. As for Ron Paul, he is a peculiar mix of them all.

    Just about every blunder or shortcoming of the candidates has been when they’ve showed the left-leaning side of their history and instincts. So any voter in 2012 who claims that those running against President “Goddamn America” are too partisan or dogmatic will have to be ultra liberal, if not ultra-ultra liberal.

    I guess, by the same token, anyone claiming that the Republican on the ballot in 2012 won’t be a damn bit different ideologically from President “Goddamn America” will have to be an ultra conservative.

    That there remains a doubt right now about whether any Republican will beat the mess currently in the White House implies this society has become way too liberal. If so, we reap what we sow. And: “Big hugs to Greece! Big cheers to Argentina! Detroit, you’re my kind of town!”

    Mark (411533)

  15. I’m holding out for “None of the above”, and if that doesn’t happen then I’m going Galt.

    Too many people still believe in the Statist policies of the President and the Democrat party. I’m kind of in favor of taking away the excuse that they’re “cleaning up the previous administration/congress’s mess” by keeping them in office. I know what everyone will say, “things will get worse” and my response is “yes, it will”. But the offsetting benefit is allowing their chickens to come home and roost.

    Jeff Crump (b69e2a)

  16. Shit Romney is no conservative but i will hold my nose.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  17. It’s deja vu all over again here at Patterico’s Pontifications.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. Even though I hate Romney voting third party makes you the enemy.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  19. The irony of calling a former Democrat supporter of Al Gore for President the only true conservative in the race escapes many.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  20. Well Reagan was Democrats for Kennedy if I recall,
    whereas when confronted in ’94, Mittens denied he had ever know who Reagan was.

    narciso (87e966)

  21. ==We should nominate the most conservative candidate who can win. That’s Rick Perry. I think in 2012, Perry can beat Obama..==

    Dustin, I totally get that you respect Perry and the job he has done for you in Texas. I don’t question that he has been a very good governor. What I don’t get is that after all the debates and polls and gaffes you still think he will ultimately be able to connect with, and garner enough moderates, independents, libertarians, and even a few of the many disaffected liberals’ votes that will be necessary in order to to “beat Obama”. On what evidence do you base your rose colored scenario concerning Perry’s chances? Because from my perch here in the heartland–and as someone who is desperate to unseat Obama– I’m just not seeing that as remotely possible.

    elissa (2f59fa)

  22. Christine O’Donnell says: Mitt Romney is the most conservative candidate who has ever run for president!

    They reviewed Hayek at Oxford together.

    Romneycare is true conservatism in a nutshell.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  23. Having fought the Borg three times, she thought the better course of action is to be ‘assimilated’

    narciso (87e966)

  24. Mittens did nothing to expand conservatism during his vacation as gov. Introduced more fees that hurt the middle class, that has led the dems to go crazy raising the fees.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  25. narciso – Goose-gander, baby.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. If you’re worried about getting more conservatives in congress, then the credibility of a candidate with conservatives is even more important.

    I’m saying the Congress won’t be truly fiscally conservative any time soon. It has nothing to do with who the Republican President is in 2014. I’m agreeing with Pat that court appointments and control of the regulatory apparatus are the main things that can be realistically hoped for.

    Probably the best bet to get a somewhat more conservative Congress is for Obama to get reelected and then 2014 might be a good year for conservatives but the Christine O’Donnells (conservatives in Red areas of the country) still won’t be able to win then either no matter how messed up things are. There probably still won’t be the votes for the Ryan Medicare plan even then and even if there was they won’t have a fillibuster proof Senate and Obama would veto it anyway and the votes to overturn the veto won’t be there.

    For all those people saying Romney’s like McCain so they won’t vote for him, we wouldn’t have Obamacare if McCain had won. Those people are stupid.

    Gerald A (7d960d)

  27. Having fought the Borg three times, she thought the better course of action is to be ‘assimilated’

    Comment by narciso — 12/15/2011 @ 8:50 am

    She articulated conservative principles to the letter. She actually had about 100% of the issues right. I just didn’t find her to be credible. I did find the frustration with Castle credible, but at least Castle had some conservative success to his record. It was a very tough argument. Where do you draw the line? Castle’s cap and tax support was wrong, but then, he was conservative half the time.

    Ultimately, it was a good thing for O’Donnell to promote the ideas I agree with, and unfortunate she wasn’t the best person for that job.

    And now she’s supporting a self professed progressive who has a socialist record and hates the wealthy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  28. B-but she wants the romneybots to love her.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  29. elissa – There are a lot of coyotes on the Mall in Washington. We need a president who can protect himself while jogging.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  30. It’s deja vu all over again here at Patterico’s Pontifications.

    Yep. Bitter clingers clinging (cleaving, in some cases) to their faves who either never gained much traction or, in Perry’s case, had his ass handed to him when he proved to be mentally unfit for higher office.

    Do I hear the word “Balkanization”?

    I think “Malkinization” is more fitting.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  31. I’m saying the Congress won’t be truly fiscally conservative any time soon. It has nothing to do with who the Republican President is in 2014.

    Maybe you’re right. I know the 2010 victory hasn’t led to much success. Those bozos are still spending tons of money.

    but I disagree that this has nothing to do with who is president.

    court appointments and control of the regulatory apparatus are the main things that can be realistically hoped for.

    So we better nominate someone who appoints conservatives. Romney has an appointment record that is predominately liberal democrats. He is, at best, extremely inconsistent on what principles matter in a judge, or what is good law or bad law.

    I do not think someone who argued that Roe v Wade was an example of a “Good law” is qualified to appoint anyone to the bench. Even pro choicers know that is a convoluted, strained example of jurisprudence.

    Romney’s like McCain so they won’t vote for him, we wouldn’t have Obamacare if McCain had won.

    Against Obama, Romney must be supported if he is the nominee.

    However, I believe we would have Obamacare if Romney had been the 2008 nominee and not lost to Obama in the general. You have to ignore most of Romney’s commentary on Romneycare not to see he’d have gone that route at some point (and indeed, Romney does want us to ignore those comments).

    This isn’t 2008. The issue today is jobs. 2010 shows us that there is a tremendous amount of energy to fight the democrats if we have the right candidates.

    I do not think Romney is a winner with any demographic other than boomers who crave more entitlement robbery from the next generation.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  32. “I think we’re stuck with this guy.”

    “We”? Au contraire, ‘you’, NRO, and feces flinging monkeys are hardly we.

    These same polls that have Newt sliding back into the slime have the fossil at 21%! Unbelievable? No sh*t, Sherlock.

    The caucus phone lists have been sold ten times over and people are sick of hearing from DC pimps. Paul is the Media flavor of the week, but all that proves is we have nothing, no clearer picture than we had weeks ago.

    That picture is 3/4 do not want Romany, 1/4 will not take Romany and even Perry has begun to move up in the polls. Stay tuned.

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  33. The Mega-Government Trans Texas Corridor was an example of true conservatism at work, right?

    Land grabs, crony capitalism.

    Flip flop.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  34. The irony of calling a former Democrat supporter of Al Gore for President the only true conservative in the race escapes many.

    was before or before was he was before…

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  35. The irony of calling Romney a true conservative since he flip-flops is ironic.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  36. And Romney’s watch was 47th out of 50 states on jobs. They say compare apples to apples, and Romney actually had some of the easiest years to govern, 2003 to 2007, which was practically the golden age.

    how will Obama characterize Romney’s promise he knows how to lead the USA back to growth and jobs? You can gut a corporation and outsource its labor to slave-labor-light in China and make that corporation very profitable. Can that concept actually recover the USA?

    No, of course not, and that’s why Romney was unable to do better as governor of MA. He consistently expresses a desire to use the government to regulate and control choices to the point where we’re all happy. That works if you’re CEO and make all the choices, but as President of a federal government? That’s what Obama’s doing, and it’s not working at all.

    Rick Perry has a different attitude. Get the federal government acting federal, with a reduction of regulation and taxation and spending with hard obstacles places against government growth and excess, and let the country prosper organically.

    Would Perry’s leadership style worked as a CEO? No. Hell no. But it’s worked very well as governor of a large state, and it would work very well as president.

    Lamenting that the congress is too divided to really get us where we’re going is defeatist. Maybe it is today. Maybe partial success will lead to more success.

    What the GOP so badly needs is a leader who is not ashamed to be conservative.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  37. perry DOA
    came in lion, went out lamb
    try with mint jelly

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  38. The irony of calling Romney a true conservative since he flip-flops is ironic.

    Comment by Dohbiden — 12/15/2011 @ 9:07 am

    As with most things, you can refute any such argument by quoting Romney himself. He is an admitted progressive. He’s got a record, and anyone saying that’s a conservative record needs to get their head examined or seek a refund from their ESL instructor.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  39. For all those people saying Romney’s like McCain so they won’t vote for him, we wouldn’t have Obamacare if McCain had won.

    That’s true. We would have had–McCaincare.

    As for myself, I think it’s been obvious from the start that Romney is the most likely to beat Obama, and that’s because he’s the least conservative of the GOP field. Like it or not, the average conservative is more conversative than the average American voter (meaning the ones that actually bother to vote)

    JBS (07cf78)

  40. perry an access
    sellin’ fool, champion of
    crapitalism

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  41. New, seasonally adjusted, unemployment claims down to 366K!!!

    Record addition to long term unemployed 372K. No biggie, more time to spend with the family.

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  42. America is a center-right nation. This fact is lost on the true believin’ ideologues. It’s their way or the highway.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  43. 17.Even though I hate Romney voting third party makes you the enemy.

    Comment by Dohbiden

    So in a free and democratic election, if someone doesn’t vote for your guy they’re the enemy. Governance above all else, it that what the motto is? Why not substitute “for the greater good?” They have the same underpinnings.

    Jeff Crump (b69e2a)

  44. The Mega-Government Trans Texas Corridor was an example of true conservatism at work, right?

    Land grabs, crony capitalism.

    Flip flop.

    perhaps crony capitalism’s… or, crapitalism’s finest hour. Rick Perry shared a vision of Texas with all the high bidders.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  45. 41.America is a center-right nation. This fact is lost on the true believin’ ideologues. It’s their way or the highway.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    Actually, from my perspective it’s your way or the highway.

    Jeff Crump (b69e2a)

  46. I see Romney’s fans are still trumping up baseless conspiracy theories about conservatives like Perry.

    Scorched earth, right?

    Reminds me of Romney complaining that the GOP would banish social security if we didn’t nominate Romney. Make everyone but Romney unelectable, and then sell yourself for being the only electable candidate.

    Remember Haiku’s specific charge was that Perry has a governor’s residence provided by the state, and he’s taken free plane rides. There is an additional charge that someone in the administration left and then bought some property, and it’s never been made clear if this charge is accurate or in what way this profited Perry directly (or even indirectly).

    I think that’s a desperation move.

    Perry’s been governor for 12 years, and if he were so horribly corrupt, there would be some real evidence of it. Even with this harsh vetting, Perry is faced with accusations about some staffer buying property with inside info (if that happened, obviously that’s bad)?

    Sounds like Perry is quite clean, then.

    But I think Haiku’s real mission is to troll the conversation away from Romney. Put Romney’s critics on the defensive with accusations that fail, and then laugh at the end that “we don’t understand the sense of humor”.

    Romney remains an admitted progressive, so no conservative should vote for him. We should vote for the most conservative candidate who can beat Obama. That is hopefully Perry.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  47. “I think it’s been obvious from the start that Romney is the most likely to beat Obama”

    Practice makes perfect, but you’ve got a ways to go, Grasshopper.

    Romany was the last of 4 consecutive Republican governors in MA, elected with the lowest margin.

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  48. America is a center-right nation

    That may be true, but from an Electoral College standpoint, the large states with a government-dependent electorate can rule the day

    Horatio (e2e328)

  49. 46.“I think it’s been obvious from the start that Romney is the most likely to beat Obama”

    Comment by gary gulrud

    Yep, the same way John McCain was susposed to win.

    Jeff Crump (b69e2a)

  50. I do understand some criticisms about the TTC, but of course a highway will involve the government, Haiku. Of course building roads is one of the most legitimate reasons for a government to use eminent domain powers.

    And Texas badly needs more highways. I was just on Texas’s stretch of I-35 for eight hours yesterday, and I think anyone who disputes the need for government to make more roads in Texas should give that a try.

    But yes, Perry did flip flop on the TTC. The citizens didn’t want their highway in that particular way, so he accepted that. Like Obama should have accepted that we didn’t want Obamacare.

    Perry’s flip flop was “I am not so arrogant as to ram something down your throat you do not want”.

    He did the same with his gardasil mistake.

    He’s not really flip flopping so much as accepting that he works for the citizens, though.

    I think Perry’s entire record, when right and when wrong, show he never forgets he’s working for us and not the other way around.

    This is the exact opposite of Romney’s attitude, where he commands his subjects to pay a $100 tax if they want to buy a gun, commands them to buy Romney’s designed health insurance whether they want to or not, commands coal plants to shut down even if the people beg for jobs.

    Romney does flip flop, yes, but as a campaigner, shamelessly saying whatever he thinks we want to hear.

    And he’s not even doing that effectively. It’s been obvious to me from the start that Romney is the least likely candidate to win a presidential election because he’s too easily shown to be a flip flopper and he has thin skin.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  51. We’re stealing democraps natural habitat.

    So sad 🙁 😆

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  52. Cheney and Giuliani have just roundly defended Mudpuppy.

    But Milhouse says Rudy is mean and vengeful.

    What to think? Will Santa leave another bag of coal this year?

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  53. Giuliani once kissed a girl and he liked it.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  54. The Beltway Elites annoiting Mitt is nothing but “Boob bait for the Bubba’s”:
    They will appease the many with a small gesture towards what they want, in order to maintain the present system – or at least 99% of it.

    I would caution those within the Establishment that the longer reform is denied, the more severe will be the correction when it does come.
    And, it will come, for the system as it exists is one that cannot endure; and as a certain law-prof in TN constantly reminds us:
    That which cannot continue, won’t!

    Or, as the Fram commercial told us:
    You can pay me now, or you can pay me later!

    If the political/economic leaders of the Southern States in 1787 had taken these words to heart, we might have been spared the losses of the 1860’s.

    Today, we can have a “Velvet Revolution” today, or we can kick this can down the road (again) and have one of sackcloth (or whatever the street-people of Paris wore) later.

    The choice is ours.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e08334)

  55. Ann Romney says Mitt had to teach her how to change diapers.

    Guess he wasn’t kidding, the French hostels had no toilets.

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  56. Yep, the same way John McCain was susposed to win.

    Comment by Jeff Crump — 12/15/2011 @ 9:22 am

    Exactly.

    And regardless, it’s not like Perry and other conservative candidates are horrible or ridiculous. They are actually fairly moderate mainstream conservatives. The GOP should be led by a nominal conservative so that the USA has democracy.

    When we have a choice between two progressives, conservatism is very unlikely to be the result. When we have a choice between two Obamacare fathers, who do those who hate Obamacare vote for?

    Out nation’s election will be more functional if the GOP nominates someone who is plausibly conservative at least.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  57. Speaking of the anointings Romney isn’t any more electable than Meghan’s unprincipled coward daddy I don’t think.

    He’s such a lackluster and backboneless whore the only way he can *maybe* excite real voters is to run the sort of hate campaign against Obama he’s run against Perry and Gingrich.

    But I just don’t see an uber-white hyper-entitled can’t-take-a-punch fop like Romney pulling that off.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  58. That’s an interesting point, Happyfeet.

    Can Romney lash out at Obama with the hate he’s shown to conservatives and moderates?

    I think if you look over his long political career (searching youtube for Romney and 1994, 2002, 2007 and 2008) Romney doesn’t take gloves off for liberals like he does for conservatives, and as soon as someone hits him back, he starts crying. And that’s not hyperbole: I saw a tear running down Romney’s red face when he cried “Anderson! Anderson! Anderson!” at the CNN debate.

    The guy can’t even handle Brett Baier, who is pretty damn mild.

    Whoever we nominate needs to be able to take the fury of a thousand suns with a grin. This is one reason I don’t rule Newt out. He can take just about anything. I think Rick can take it and expects it. I think Mitt would cry to Anderson Cooper, but would no longer have any reason to expect some assistance from the CNN mommy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  59. Say, since Newt is slipping in the polls, and we spineless worms adjust our thinking by their tally, has Mitty rebounded in OH and PA?

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  60. Whoever we nominate needs to be able to take the fury of a thousand suns with a grin. This is one reason I don’t rule Newt out. He can take just about anything.

    And for better or worse this is why Newt needs to be the nominee. Even if he loses, he is the only one who can punch Obama in the face on National TV and score points

    Horatio (e2e328)

  61. Debbie Schlussel a conservative?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  62. And Romney is not my guy.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  63. Horatio, Newt isn’t my first choice, but he’s definitely on my short list of acceptable remaining candidates.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  64. I’ll dispute the notion that Newt really holds up under pressure though, Dustin, but it does seem like they learned nothing from 2007-2008 contest

    narciso (87e966)

  65. It’s worth noting that Mitt Romney endorsed 100 MA state legislature candidates and they all lost.

    It’s also worth noting that with Massachusetts favorite son on the Presidential ballot that year, George Bush did not win a single county or Congressional district in Massachusetts, but why focus on details like that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. John Kerry

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. Newt may not politically survive the hellfire, Narciso, but he won’t crumble on stage at least.

    Romney is ready to crack merely over accurate attacks. What happens if he graduates to the general election, where Obama’s campaign will hit him with crap that isn’t even true or fair? The worst part is I’m going to have to defend Romney. Don’t put me through that, guys. Please.

    Rick just hits back and grins. He knew he wasn’t going to shine on stage anyway, so he probably finds a back and forth fight to be a net win anyway.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  68. It’s also worth noting that with Massachusetts favorite son on the Presidential ballot that year, George Bush did not win a single county or Congressional district in Massachusetts, but why focus on details like that.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/15/2011 @ 9:58 am

    Actually, OK. I’m going to grant you this one.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  69. Make everyone but Romney Perry unelectable, and then sell yourself for being the only electable candidate.

    Dustin – FTFY

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. “Actually, OK. I’m going to grant you this one.”

    Dustin – Thanks, but stuff like that should be obvious with a little thought instead of a knee jerk attack.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  71. Gone for a while

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  72. I have no doubt that many think that Romeny is the only Republican who can defeat Obama. If you don’t like Obamacare but still want Obamacare, Romneycare is the way to vote. Romney is a true conservative: he is likely to conserve all the bold advances of the Obama, Clinton, Carter, LBJ, JFK, Truman, and FDR administrations.

    tehag (a1a343)

  73. Can Romney lash out at Obama with the hate he’s shown to conservatives and moderates?

    You are like an extreme liberal, in that you don’t shame or embarrass easy, do you, Dustin?

    Can you point to any instances of anything even close to this happening?

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  74. and we spineless worms adjust our thinking…

    call 1-800–DOMINATRIX… 15% discount on whipping and golden showers, but you must call in the next 30 minutes!

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  75. I see the Three Amigos are riding together again.

    Anyway, conservatives: don’t despair that Perry is not leading. Don’t go down without a fight. There are several states where enthusiastic volunteers can make up the difference. This is how some candidates outperform their polls, and why others tend to underperform.

    If you’re frustrated that the GOP isn’t as conservative as you like, help.

    We can lament that at least a RINO will be less awful than Obama after we’ve given 100% and lost the primary. Better yet, we can avoid that altogether.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  76. Newt/Rubio as VP?

    Horatio (e2e328)

  77. You ar elike an extreme liberal

    Irony alert.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  78. _____________________________________________

    We should nominate the most conservative candidate who can win. That’s Rick Perry

    I have to qualify my previous statement. In the case of Perry, his biggest d’oh! moment wasn’t due to ideological issues but purely superficial ones. IOW, when he couldn’t recall the name of a federal department he’d shut down and therefore looked befuddled in front of the public. Of course, no worse than Joe “FDR-gave-speeches-on-TV” Biden or Barry “teleprompter” Obama, but it still shredded Perry’s image.

    I’d still gladly vote for him over Barack Soetero, but I’m not sure if a large enough percentage of the electorate will respond the same way.

    I was speaking to someone the other day who generally leans right, who in a past conservation with me had less trouble slamming Michelle Bachmann than “goddamn America” Obama. I managed to eke out of him an acknowledgement that many folks in general will give greater leeway or benefit of the doubt to a variety of soft-headed liberals than the way they react towards conservatives. It’s probably due to the nature found in many people that makes them treat “mommy” (the supposed forgiving, big-hearted member of the family) differently than disciplinarian, task-master “daddy.”

    So in the eyes of a lot of the public, “mommy” leans left, “daddy” leans right. And when there are plenty of bratty kids in the family — ie, variations of those who foster Euro sclerosis or Third-World anomie — fun and pandemonium will soon follow.

    Mark (411533)

  79. Romney has an appointment record that is predominately liberal democrats.

    What would you expect him to appoint in MA? I assume they have to get confirmed there like federal judges.

    Gerald A (7d960d)

  80. What would you expect him to appoint in MA? I assume they have to get confirmed there like federal judges.

    Comment by Gerald A — 12/15/2011 @ 10:47 am

    I think he could have tried to appoint moderates and conservatives to the bench if he were a conservative.

    Is this really so hard to believe? Many executives have nominated people who are qualified, but not ideologically the same as a legislature.

    At least TRY.

    But, I think Romney was a governor in MA because he was liberal. I don’t think he was liberal just because he was governor of MA. There’s a reason MA was where Romney chose, of many places, to begin his 17 year career as a politician.

    Anyway, it’s simple: just lead the way you think is right, and if you win or lose elections, that is the will of the citizens. Don’t lead a way you think is wrong, and then say you were just trying to keep power. That makes it impossible to evaluate anyone.

    Romney thought it was right to nominate a large percentage of liberal democrats to the bench (I believe over 75%).

    Or Romney thought he should nominate a different way than he knew was right because it was politically advantageous.

    That dichotomy neatly summarizes everything about Mitt. Either he was one of the most pro abortion rights Republicans in this country’s history, or he was willing to pretend to be for some power. Either he wanted to lead on a massive increase to the gun tax in his state, or was willing to pretend to be pro-“strong gun control” (his own terms) for some power.

    Yes, Mitt probably would not have had power in MA if he had campaigned as he has since 2007. But he led like a liberal for one reason or another. Either the man has no character or he is not conservative or both.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  81. Also Gerald, won’t it be a lot easier for Mitt to nominate ‘moderates’ to the bench?

    The democrats would probably praise him. It would be safer with low info independents than nominating another Clarence Thomas.

    That’s why I think it’s worth noting how Mitt nominated in the past. If it was easier to nominate a liberal than a conservative, he did. Maybe he’s going to proudly nominate conservatives, saying ‘this is what’s right, and I don’t care what the political cost is’.

    Maybe Mitt is going to announce, at his inauguration speech, that his long career of flip flops was a trick to fool the left and he’s actually extremely conservative and intends to govern for four years that way.

    Maybe.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  82. Amen, Dustin. He’s a smooth politician, but we already have one of those.

    It’s just my humble opinion, but if Newt/Mitt win the nomination, and even manages to win the general, the tea party won’t go back to sleep. It will be a one term presidency, because their solutions to 90% of our problems is more spending.

    We spent 8 years defending bush’s spending. I, for one, don’t have the patience to defend the indefensible.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  83. Can Romney lash out at Obama with the hate he’s shown to conservatives and moderates?

    — Examples, please?

    Icy (5f90f2)

  84. Well does Madden or Murphy, Feeherty, et al, ever really do anything but the most superficial criticism of Obama’s policies while navelgazing
    over the right’s actual or perceived foibles.

    narciso (87e966)

  85. – Examples, please?

    Mitt’s screeching about abolishing social security is probably the worst I’ve ever seen from a legitimate GOP primary candidate.

    Mitt demanded Rick Perry criticize an entire religious group Rick disagreed with, in a shameless effort to play the Al Sharpton card.

    Romney has responded to Newt’s generally kind campaign by trashing Newt’s wife’s jewelry habit. ““Zany is not what we need in a president,” Mr. Romney said.” He’s also called Newt “erratic”. These are personal insults that are unpresidential, especially given that Newt is being criticized for flip flops by Mitt of all people. Especially given that Newt has been a lot nicer to competitors than most politicians are. Damn, this is making it personal.

    Mitt Romney has even bashed Ronald Reagan’s leadership.

    Sometimes, Mitt Romney has to withdraw his ads because they amount to nothing but ad hominem.

    Mitt Romney has a long record of being an ad hominem and hysterical politician. This is one reason I think Mitt would do anything for power.

    I’m not surprised you were ignorant about Romney’s record. I am encouraged that you now need examples before drawing conclusions, Icy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  86. Also, before Perry shut him down, Romney was one of the loudest immigration attackers. I think the reason that’s subsided is that it was proven deeply insincere.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  87. “We”? Au contraire, ‘you’, NRO, and feces flinging monkeys are hardly we.

    I don’t even know what that means. I have made no secret of the fact that I prefer Perry to Romney. I just worry that Perry may not be able to pull it off. I would looove to be proved wrong.

    I sense you’re trying to pigeonhole me into a category where I don’t belong, Gary gulrud. I’m not sure why. Perhaps because I didn’t like Christine O’Donnell. Well, I didn’t and I don’t. Her pick is Romney. Mine isn’t. Enough said.

    Patterico (b436e5)

  88. The Left has given us every signal Mitt is the one they want to run against. Second only to Huntsman, of course. National Review and Washington Examiner have thrown in with Mr. Establishment – who has been running for six years – and convinced no one of anything – except for convincing some that he’s the safe date to the prom. They are wrong. Prom night is different this time. 2012 isn’t a dance – it’s a knock-down-drag-out oratorical fight.

    d(^_^)b
    http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
    “Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive”

    LibertyAtStake (3d760e)

  89. I’m not surprised you were ignorant about Romney’s record

    Icy, I wish I could withdraw this remark.

    You and your two pals seem to be very personal in the way you’ve reacted to my discussion of Romney’s flaws, but nothing about the comment I responded to justified an insult. While I’m justified in reacting to you this way, doing so serves no purpose.

    I shouldn’t hold grudges about even extreme ugliness online so long as it’s just limited to comments. It’s just not important.

    Not that I can sincerely apologize, but I regret going there for no good reason.

    I think Romney’s need to insult his competitors in personal terms is an ongoing trend. He’s trashed Perry as dumb and Newt as a bad friend and a zany erratic with a Tiffany’s shopping wife.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  90. The Left has given us every signal Mitt is the one they want to run against.

    Yes. The guy is just deeply unlikeable. You can show him flip flopping with such passion that he annoys both sides of most debates, and most just don’t respect him to boot.

    For example, his pro-abotion-rights argument was a passionate comparison of pro-life policies with back alley abortions killing innocent people. It was just balls to the wall passion that most pro lifers would find doesn’t answer their actual argument at all. His pro-life argument is similarly passionate, and I don’t think it answers the pro choice argument at all.

    I think this provides a tactical reason to hope the GOP nominates Romney. Romney can promise things that the middle will want, and then Obama can undercut those promises with aggressive ads, and also undercut Romney’s promise for a new direction, and also undercut Romney claiming he can lead to prosperity by citing MA’s relative lagging behind the rest of the country.

    It also provides an ideological reason to hope for Romney. If you like democrat ideas, Romney is going to be the candidate you’re least upset to see replace Obama. If democrats are worried that Obama has failed so much that his loss is very likely, then they will like Romney because he’s the most like a democrat ideologically and the least likely to go Rick Perry on them, reforming away Obama’s policies or other spending problems.

    I think the election will mostly be about Obama. Even if we nominate Perry, my vote will 95% be meant as a vote against Obama. I think Obama’s in a lot of swing states show that once the GOP nominates someone, Obama will have an extremely difficult time winning.

    I want our win to be a win for conservative policies because things are urgently in need of fixin’

    Dustin (cb3719)

  91. Even if Newt wins, the establishment gop and their tools of print will gladly make him unelectable.
    Never seen so many gop’ers out to lunch.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  92. 86. This issue pressed by yourself, loyal party member we suppose, was that O’D was unworthy of support having already won a closed primary and having run for the very same office some 4 years prior.

    She was illegitimate for reasons including being sponsored by a TEA caucus.

    Now you propose that Indies such as myself are somehow zany because we repeatedly announce our intention to go elsewhere if you are unable to find a candidate other than Romney or Paul, Huntsman, Johnson, et al.

    In what way is this consistent on your part? Because you find Romney fit, whereas O’D wasn’t?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  93. I don’t see the point of nominating the “candidate most likely to beat Obama” without looking hard at the candidate.

    Example: I am almost certain that Hilary Clinton would beat Obama in a Dem primary (and in a general election for that matter) if those are the only choices. I also think Hilary would be an improvement over Obama. That does NOT mean I would have her be the Republican nominee. There are limits.

    Now, is Romney within those limits? Even on economic issues? Not at all clear.

    (I am also unclear that he is the most electable — he has a huge whiff of corporatist/Wall Street affiliation at a time when those connections are not highly regarded.)

    Kevin M (563f77)

  94. Gary, O’Donnell was accused of being a bit of a weasel. I know I said I doubted she would remain a tea party loyal conservative, promoting the issues she was loved for.

    And now she’s endorsed a self described progressive for President.

    I think O’Donnell was better than Coons, but that doesn’t mean people should shut up about their problems with her. It’s not like there is some rule of ‘worthy of support’ that then obligates everyone to be silent about criticism they have about someone.

    I think a lot of people who went balls to the wall for O’Donnell, such as Levin, now kinda look like jackasses for not realizing she was playing them for suckers. She couldn’t care less about conservative ideology. She just donned that view like Mitt Romney reading the daily poll.

    I don’t think anyone said O’Donnell was illegitimate because the Tea Party Express endorsed her. They said they didn’t think much of her, and they said they didn’t think that endorsement meant O’Donnell would be a great conservative.

    In fact, had O’Donnell won, which was always a zero percent liklihood, she would today be voting like a liberal. That’s the Mitt Romney model in blue states, after all.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  95. I also expect that it is not the time to be timid: There is no way that you can rescue a capitalist economy with central state control and command-economy methods. Yet the President is convinced that there is “a light at the end of the tunnel” and that “next time will be different,”

    EPIC FAIL IN PROGRESS.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  96. Just imagine a debate between Obama and Perry.

    Perry has never had a problem with overaching issues, or criticizing liberalism. In fact, he’s good at that.

    So he hits Obama for his Obamacare policy, enacted against the wishes of the people. Or for his policy of increasing the debt ceiling and not getting legit budgets passed. Or for regulating so harshly that job creation is directly harmed.

    Now picture Obama debating Romney. This wouldn’t be much different from Romney debating Ted Kennedy. Both promising they hold similar views, but Romney promising he can run things better because he’s smart and decades ago had success at a couple of things not similar to being President.

    Obama responds by noting Romney’s fake-ness and harshly describing his record as a failed governor. Romney never brings up Obamacare. He doesn’t promise to reform entitlement spending. He doesn’t champion conservatism. They both make a mad rush for the center, and explain that they are the true exemplar of this view.

    And of course, both go extremely harsh on the other on personal terms.

    And Obama is reelected.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  97. Dustin, I note they had Sununu shut up pretty quick once people remembered about Souter and about the “Watch My Lips!” tax hike that he brokered. As you say, a New England conservative is a Sunbelt liberal.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  98. Uh, Dustin I would say the reverse, unless you think
    Ira Einhorn’s attorney, Sen. Specter was some kind of conservative, or Stafford or Jeffords from Vermont, Brooke from Massachusserrs, Weicker, Consider Hagel from Nebraska, or Graham from S. Carolina, or Murkowski, who doesn ‘t even vote like her father,

    narciso (87e966)

  99. It’s hard to predict such things, narciso. The fact is that O’Donnell would have been a better Senator than Castle as well as Coons, but I just didn’t think she would be what she was advertising herself as.

    No need to re-litigate that. I actually think I was wrong to oppose O’Donnell, simply because I am now sick and tired of giving the GOP a chance to shut down the spending. I think taking risks with new blood is justified simply to put the fear of God into these RINOs who constantly disappoint with their results.

    Obama will try to portray himself as the man of the center, and so will Romney, and Obama will win that contest because the main reasons Obama is not a man of the center are things like ramming the individual mandate down our throats.

    Romney can’t use that effectively, but Obama can use Romney’s greatest weakness against him, and since both sides would be personal against the other, I just don’t think Romney has a chance of hitting the right notes on the most important issues.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  100. “…National Review and Washington Examiner have thrown in with Mr. Establishment…”

    As has the WSJ if you read Holman Jenkins this week, though Dan Henninger thinks it’s a “cage match”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e08334)

  101. Dustin @ 95 –

    Bingo. That’s why I’m still hoping Perry gets the nomination: I think he could actually score some MAJOR points on Obama in a debate, on issues that your average “I don’t pay attention to politics until two weeks before Election Day” independent could actually follow. E.g.:

    Obama: Blah, blah, saved or created umpteen million jobs, blah, blah…
    Perry: Hey, you want to talk jobs? Let’s talk jobs. We both inherited the same economy from Bush. But while you were clogging up the job-production machinery of small business with rules and regulations out the wazoo, I had enough sense to get out of the way and let business growth do its thing. Result: positive job growth in Texas during years when the other 19 of the top 20 states ALL had negative job growth.

    Rinse, lather, repeat (and stay on message), and Perry carries at least 60-70% of the independent vote.

    Robin Munn (347954)

  102. “…Sen. Specter was some kind of conservative…”

    “Some” kind of a previous, and current, Democrat.
    He was only Republican when it was convenient, and he just wasn’t “conservative” except in a “Main Line”, country-club way.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e08334)

  103. Mitt is a dubious conservative. But yeah, we are probably stuck with him

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  104. The only saving graces about Mitt is that he can’t be as bad as what we have, and he is probably more level-headed than McCain.
    Probably a GWB redux, who just spent too damn much, and let his “compassion” get in the way of common-sense.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e08334)

  105. ==No need to re-litigate that.==

    Indeed, Dustin. In my opinion the only reason Christine O’Donnell’s name should ever come up at all is in the context of lessons that were (or should have been) learned as a result of her most unfortunate candidacy in a most important election.

    elissa (2f59fa)

  106. By the way, the Trans-Texas Corridor sounds to me like a good idea — in theory. Of course as they say, in theory there’s no difference between theory and practise — but in practise there is.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  107. The lie of the year- Mittens will nominate conservative judges.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  108. and I think anyone who disputes the need for government to make more roads in Texas should give that a try.

    Well, I dispute the need for the government to make more roads. I think the government needs to make it possible for private companies to make more roads as and when there is a demand for them. Remember that the original turnpikes in the Northeast were private profit-making enterprises, until governments took them over.

    Still, given that the current model of road-building is for government to do it, or at least to take the lead, the TTC did seem like a sensible idea at the time, and I don’t blame Perry for supporting it until it became clear that the public didn’t want it.

    But yes, Perry did flip flop on the TTC. The citizens didn’t want their highway in that particular way, so he accepted that. Like Obama should have accepted that we didn’t want Obamacare.

    Perry’s flip flop was “I am not so arrogant as to ram something down your throat you do not want”.

    He did the same with his gardasil mistake.

    He’s not really flip flopping so much as accepting that he works for the citizens, though.

    Fair enough. But that means his support for TTC and gardasil were not really mistakes. That is to say, he was right in principle, but guessed wrong about how the public would react. Had he known in advance that the public would reject these ideas then obviously he wouldn’t have wasted his time and political capital supporting them, and that is in some sense a “mistake”; but given that he couldn’t have known this in advance he made the right choice at the time, and then made the right choice again when he bowed to the public and abandoned them.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  109. Giuliani once kissed a girl and he liked it.

    Actually he’s on record has having kissed several girls and liked each of them. Which is why he found himself sleeping on his friends’ couch.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  110. The lie of the year- Mittens will nominate conservative judges.

    Comment by sickofrinos — 12/15/2011 @ 3:19 pm

    Nominating Clarence Thomas is Bush 41’s greatest accomplishment. But on balance, he didn’t do very well in this area and if Mitt merely does as Bush 41 did, we will see the court’s balance tip to majority liberal, with tremendous consequences.

    But hell, even if Mitt keeps his 75% liberal judge record, that is better than Obama’s 95% liberal judge record.

    If we’re truly stuck with Mitt, fine. I’ll vote for him to limit the damage. But I’m still voting Perry in the primary.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  111. Perry has never had a problem with overaching issues, or criticizing liberalism. In fact, he’s good at that.

    The peeps are still aching over Perry’s attempts to string two coherent sentences together. He never got to the point where he made much sense about anything. Tough luck, maybe next time.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  112. “screeching”… “demanded”… “trashing”… “bashed”…

    LOL. Some evidence.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  113. Well, I dispute the need for the government to make more roads. I think the government needs to make it possible for private companies to make more roads as and when there is a demand for them.

    This is interestingly very close to the TTC concept.

    Personally, I do not mind if the government handles highways. The problem for Texas is that we have a highway problem that will cost billions to solve, but the it’s traffic from Mexico to Illinois that is causing it, and Texas benefits very indirectly. The solution is obvious: toll the traffic, and let the traffic crossing Texas pay for the road they are using.

    find a way to let a private company take over is what Texas has done with similar projects, such as toll road I use on a daily basis. It’s a nice road, and the trip saves more than the gas needed to take an alternative route.

    But I would prefer if the state owned the road. I would also prefer if roads that are predominately used by Texans to do business and life in Texas were not funded via tolls, which I find inefficient and somewhat inhibiting to commerce.

    —-

    Personally, I think the Gardasil mandate thing was attempted too early in Texas. Now that we know it’s not so bad, Bachmann’s little bird notwithstanding, the real issue is whether the government should mandate vaccines for diseases that aren’t related to attending school.

    A case can be made either way, but I think boys and girls should be vaccinated the same on this one.

    There is a substantial benefit to society if several kinds of cancer can be reduced by 70%, but on the other hand, and that won’t happen without the government stepping in, but on the other hand, I don’t really like the government solving every problem in the world.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  114. LOL. Some evidence.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    The only ones I didn’t link to prove where the ones Patterico linked in his post.

    Iron clad proof of Romney going personal.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  115. Gary

    Anyone but Obama, that is the msg. you missed it, but that is the msg

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  116. What would you expect him to appoint in MA? I assume they have to get confirmed there like federal judges.

    They are confirmed, not by the legislature, but by the Governor’s Council, an eight-member elected body.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  117. Damn, Milhouse.

    Pretty amazing when someone can surprise me that Mitt was more liberal than I expected.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  118. Your tainted love for Rick Perry smothers your critical thinking, Dustin.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  119. I hope Perry talks about his support for eight amendments to the U.S. Constitution tonight. That would be fun.

    Somebody needs to buy the man a clue.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  120. Personally, I do not mind if the government handles highways.

    Nor do you have a problem with several of Perry’s crapitalist cronies wetting their beaks to the tune of billions of Texas taxpayer dollars… as has been pointed out to you a dozen or more times.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  121. “They are confirmed, not by the legislature, but by the Governor’s Council, an eight-member elected body.”

    Milhouse – Are they not recommended by such Council? If the Governor does not like the recommendation, the spot remains unfilled until another candidate is recommended.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  122. “Had he known in advance that the public would reject these ideas then obviously he wouldn’t have wasted his time and political capital supporting them,”

    A less arrogant and power hungry governor would figure out what the people wanted before wasting time, money and political capital on doomed initiatives such as the TTC or the Tardasil mandate.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  123. “Romney never brings up Obamacare.”

    Well, to be fair, he does say he will repeal it day one or issue waivers to every state, but why bring that up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  124. Jaysus, Daley! How many times do you have to be scolded?!?! Do NOT confuse these people with facts.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  125. “Romney has responded to Newt’s generally kind campaign by trashing Newt’s wife’s jewelry habit”

    Dustin – Do you mean after Newt slammed him from getting rich from bankrupting companies at Bain? Seriously?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  126. There is a substantial benefit to society if several kinds of cancer can be reduced by 70%, but on the other hand, and that won’t happen without the government stepping in, but on the other hand, I don’t really like the government solving every problem in the world.

    But this wasn’t the government qua government, it was the government in its role as administrator of the public school system. Ideally there would be no public schools at all, and each school or network of schools would decide its own policy. But so long as there are public schools the state must make rules for them, and the list of required vaccinations is one of those. It seems to me that STDs are spread via the school, even if they’re not spread at school. The students will be catching STDs not from random strangers but from fellow students whom they met at school, and whom they may never have met had the school not thrust them together. Thus the school is liable for what happens, and should take preventive measures such as insisting that they be vaccinated. Vaccinating girls only makes some sense, since it halves the cost, and girls are far more likely than boys to get cancer from HPV. Mostly HPV is a harmless annoyance to men, or nearly so, while it can be deadly to women.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  127. Mitt is a progressive turd sandwich masquerading as a conservative cheese sandwich.

    But I will hold my nose.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  128. post #123… and much laughter ensued…

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  129. Your tainted love for Romney clouds your common sense Colonel………….oh wait you never had any my bad.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  130. Jaysus Colonel go away only scumbags take you seriously and agree with you about Romney.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  131. Milhouse – Are they not recommended by such Council? If the Governor does not like the recommendation, the spot remains unfilled until another candidate is recommended.

    No, AFAIK you’ve got it wrong way around. The governor nominates, the council either consents or refuses. Dustin, I don’t know the partisan composition of the council under Romney, but it was probably controlled by Democrats.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  132. A less arrogant and power hungry governor would figure out what the people wanted before wasting time, money and political capital on doomed initiatives such as the TTC or the Tardasil mandate.

    In other words just follow the polls instead of leading? The TTC and gardasil were both good ideas. The public should have supported them. Unfortunately they didn’t, so Perry accepted that they weren’t going to happen. But why blame him for trying? Do you really want government by Gallup?

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  133. “Do NOT confuse these people with facts.”

    Colonel – Sorry, I’ll try not to disturb the narrative again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  134. dohbidet… it appears your diarrhea of the mouth has taken a turn for the worse. Hang in there!

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  135. Dustin – Do you mean after Newt slammed him from getting rich from bankrupting companies at Bain? Seriously?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/15/2011 @ 4:00 pm

    Totally seriously.

    Mitt has simply been the most negative candidate out there. Newt has been the least negative, but he has offered a couple of attacks.

    I do not understand why you think Newt making one point would justify Mitt’s record of being extremely negative on personal terms.

    After all, Mitt’s record of outsourcing jobs is not a personal attack. It’s also not a conservative attack, so it is ‘wrong’, from my point of view, but it is not personal. That is how Mitt’s subordinates conducted business. That is, in fact, one of Mitt’s few strong points.

    Why would criticizing that be some kind of opening to trash Newt’s wife, call him a bad friend, zany, erratic, etc?

    regardless, Icy asked for specific examples (for some reason, I guess he missed the post’s links) so I offered many examples.

    Mitt has been so negative that sometimes he sheepishly has deleted the ad, such as the one dowdifying Perry and calling him stupid.

    They guy can’t debate on policy points, because he has contradicted almost any ideological position you can take aside from foreign policy. So he has to be relentlessy ad hom. Support Romney because his the best man and the smart man and the smooth man and oppose so and so because he’s erratic and stupid and a bad person with that horrible spendy wife.

    That’s how Mitt would debate Obama, too, which probably won’t work at all because Obama will hit back a lot harder than Mitt is capable of taking.

    Mitt has engaged in class warfare now, so you can stop complaining that he suffered from some. Yeah, Newt was wrong, but if you oppose class warfare arguments, you should vote Rick Perry.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  136. “The TTC and gardasil were both good ideas.”

    Milhouse – You contradict yourself. If they were both a good idea in spite of what the public thought, was Perry cowardly not to go through with them?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  137. “I do not understand why you think Newt making one point would justify Mitt’s record of being extremely negative on personal terms.”

    The point you cite was in direct response to a negative personal attack, that’s why.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. Milhouse – You contradict yourself. If they were both a good idea in spite of what the public thought, was Perry cowardly not to go through with them?

    Um, no. He works for the public, not the public for him. And unlike 0bama, he recognises that. Having failed to persuade the public that he was right, he quite properly backed down.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  139. http://www.governor.state.tx.us/files/ecodev/TEF_Listing.pdf

    Nor do you have a problem with several of Perry’s crapitalist cronies wetting their beaks to the tune of billions of Texas taxpayer dollars… as has been pointed out to you a dozen or more times.

    Col,

    I think you have been misreading the official form – it looks like Perry – with legislative oversight – distributed [440 Million] in 6 years which is 119 million less than a certain Gov of Alaska did in just 1 year and 14 billion was invested by those companies in Texas Jobs

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  140. Jaysus Colonel go away only scumbags take you seriously and agree with you about Romney.

    Comment by Dohbiden — 12/15/2011 @ 4:04 pm

    I think a lot of his arguments are not arguments at all. For example, Daleyrocks has Haiku 100% opposite of my take on his comments in this thread. He responded to my citation of facts with a sneering dismissal that offered no argument. He’s upset that I proved his narrative wrong.

    But that’s not to say all Romney fans are scum. I think most of them are just boomers worried about paying for retirement without taking wealth from the next generation, but also worried that Obama will collapse the system before they get some of that precious money they didn’t earn.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  141. Dustin – I would call Perry bringing up Romney’s lawn service going personally negative. Why didn’t you mention that?

    Plus Perry challenging Romney on his book early on. That was personal.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  142. Did you read the entire comment?

    It is not a personal attack to complain that Mitt Romney’s accomplishment was to lay off American workers.

    It’s also ‘wrong’ in my opinion because it is contrary to capitalism, but that is not a personal attack.

    Also, the vast majority of the citations I offered came before the incident you are seeming to say justifies them.

    And also, two wrongs don’t make a right.

    And also, Newt has been a lot less negative than Romney, and if you dispute this please say so.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  143. “practises”… “recognises”… I had no idea milhouse was British. Does that colour his humour?

    If that don’t buggerall…

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  144. tainted love…

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  145. Romney supporters:

    Explain to me why it’s fine to criticize Perry over a vaccine while simultaneously defending Romney over RomneyCare? Both actions are anti-conservative but Romney’s folly was magnitudes greater in scope than Perry’s.

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  146. I would call Perry bringing up Romney’s lawn service going personally negative. Why didn’t you mention that?

    Because I was asked for examples of Romney getting personal?

    Do you consider every comment that doesn’t bash Perry dishonest now?

    Do I need to criticize Perry when I mail you a christmas card and when I kiss my wife?

    I was noting just how ridiculously negative Romney has been.

    On the immigration issue, Romney was harshly critical of Perry on illegal immigration issues, despite a far worse record on illegals, which Rick properly shut down by noting that Romney knew he had illegals working on his lawn (at least that’s how it seems to me).

    Romney making a decision to hire a scummy lawn care company he knows makes a mockery of the law is not a purely ad hom attack at all. It is a substantive refutation of Romney’s credibility when Romney compares his record to Perry’s.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  147. Col

    I just would like to point out your claim maybe in error about the billions of dollars that Perry distributed to cronies?

    Did you look at this official [accounting]?

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  148. Rick just hits back and grins.

    Fool that he is, he’d do it all over again.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  149. “practises”… “recognises”… I had no idea milhouse was British. Does that colour his humour?

    If that don’t buggerall…

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/15/2011 @ 4:18 pm

    I find it so funny how bent out of shape you get when I note Romney’s negativity, when you’re so relentlessly and needlessly personal in your attacks on folks.

    You don’t mind at all that Romney would be personal too. This is what you think is smart politics.

    Why not just take this from the other direction? I’m actually annoyed you don’t, as it would be a lot smarter to say ‘hell yeah Mitt Romney fights hard and dirty and punches below the belt, and he’d do it to Obama!’

    Why do all your best arguments need to be handed to you on a silver platter?

    No one cares about Milhouse’s nationality.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  150. DRJ

    And Perry’s had an opt out for parents

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  151. Johnson… we were talking highway construction and billions of dollars were at stake with the TTC, before Perry got knee-capped.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  152. the default should have been no Gardisil vaccine, instead of having to opt out of subjecting young girls to it.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  153. Col

    Your Billions claim, I cant find it on the official audited [accountings] can you please point it out

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  154. Eric, Haiku is a little challenged by facts, but let’s see if his battle buddies can make it personal. I predict an insult to you that does not explain anything interesting is forthcoming.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  155. ==But that’s not to say all Romney fans are scum. I think most of them are just boomers worried about paying for retirement without taking wealth from the next generation, but also worried that Obama will collapse the system before they get some of that precious money they didn’t earn==

    Geez. Where did this come from? Why would Romney supporters view entitlement spending differently than, say Perry supporters? Are there no Boomer Perry supporters? Are most Romney supporters Boomers? Data please.

    elissa (2f59fa)

  156. While gov. of mass. romney sought out radical homosexual groups and feminists in his judicial selective process. I remmember him having others fight the gay marriage issue.
    His chief legal councels advised him to implement unconstitutional policies: implementing “gay marriage” without legislative authorization and forcing catholic hospitals to dispense the morning-after abortion pills. I would need medical dope to vote for this ass.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  157. Col

    Its a huge claim you made, somwthing that seems terrible if its true – so here are the [figures ]– here is your chance to expose the truth – I have every confidence that you can find the billions on this accounting summary

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  158. Geez. Where did this come from? Why would Romney supporters view entitlement spending differently than, say Perry supporters? Are there no Boomer Perry supporters? Are most Romney supporters Boomers? Data please.

    Comment by elissa — 12/15/2011 @ 4:28 pm

    I have absolutely no ‘data’. this is from my personal experience.

    I know a lot of Romney fans. Not a one of them are scum. All of them are boomers, and at least the few I am willing to talk this over with in detail definitely do not like the kinds of entitlement reform I want.

    I hope voters are informed enough that Perry supporters definitely view entitlement spending differently from Romney supporters, as this is a huge difference between the candidates.

    But I didn’t mean to slur all Romney fans, which is how my comment comes across. I think they generally do not want an end to the entitlements, and I think that’s because many of them are boomers. I think this is a legitimate ideology, but one I greatly disagree with.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  159. All I did was ask about Milhouse’s nationality, Dustin, and then you bashed me with your screeching/tainted love-based post.

    Johnson… keep up… the TTC was not worked through to completion… get it? It was projected that Perry’s cronies would’ve secured construction contracts worth billions of dollars. Comprende?

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  160. Remember, soon after Romney bashed Perry, claiming he was going to abolish social security, he then promised to increase medicare by $500 billion over where Obama has it, calling a cut to Medicare “wrong”.

    So would hope someone who agrees with entitlement spending prefers Romney to Perry,and someone who agrees with entitlement reform prefers Perry to Romney.

    btw, I consider Romney’s abolish claim to be extremely dishonest, and the kind of claim that harms the GOP down ticket. It’s the kind of selfish politicking that I associate with Mitt’s entire campaign.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  161. All I did was ask about Milhouse’s nationality, Dustin, and then you bashed me with your screeching/tainted love-based post.

    Very helpful, Haiku.

    It’s so funny how you lash out, but also clearly are angry about the comments you’re referencing. You Romney fans can dish it out, but you can’t take it. Just like Mitt.

    Haiku, it would really complete the look if you would type “anderson! anderson! anderson!” before you whine to me about my mean mean Romney bashings, which I admit I do enjoy very much.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  162. Col

    Well, the liberals over at that bastion of lefty overspending minions BIGGOVERNMENT

    Raised some points in an indepth factual, well researched [article], rather than Ron Paul talking points

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  163. It’s so funny how you lash out, but also clearly are angry about the comments you’re referencing. You Romney fans can dish it out, but you can’t take it.

    Recognising sarcasm is not among your super-hero capabilities, is it.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  164. “Um, no. He works for the public, not the public for him. And unlike 0bama, he recognises that. Having failed to persuade the public that he was right, he quite properly backed down.”

    Milhouse – Correct. Contrary to your claim, the ideas were not good.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  165. elissa,

    According to Gallup, Gingrich has the most support among over-55 Republicans:

    Gingrich — 41%
    Romney —– 23%
    Ron Paul — 4%
    Others —– 18%
    No opinion – 15%

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  166. “For example, Daleyrocks has Haiku 100% opposite of my take on his comments in this thread.”

    Dustin – I have no idea what you mean by this, but would appreciate it if you do not attribute positions to me I do not hold.

    I agree with Haiku that crony capitalism is an issue for Perry.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  167. Rick Perry doesn’t even register?

    I find that hard to believe.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  168. “Did you read the entire comment?

    It is not a personal attack to complain that Mitt Romney’s accomplishment was to lay off American workers.

    It’s also ‘wrong’ in my opinion because it is contrary to capitalism, but that is not a personal attack.

    Also, the vast majority of the citations I offered came before the incident you are seeming to say justifies them.”

    Dustin – I complained only about one citation. Read more carefully. Remember all of Newt’s comment about getting rich from laying employees and bankrupting companies.

    That is entirely personal.

    You keep seeing only what you want to see with regard to Perry and Romney because you are too vested in the outcome.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  169. “Explain to me why it’s fine to criticize Perry over a vaccine while simultaneously defending Romney over RomneyCare?”

    DRJ – Unlike the legislative imperative Romney faced in Massachusetts, there was no political pressure for Perry to mandate the use of gardasil. It had only recently been approved by the FDA and not in widespread use.

    In addition, Perry imposed his gardasil mandate through executive order as opposed to going through the legislature, which ultimately overturned him.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  170. You keep seeing only what you want to see with regard to Perry and Romney because you are too vested in the outcome.

    This is exactly how you come across to me.

    I’m more than willing to criticize Perry and even note Romney’s strengths because you are completely wrong in what you’re saying.

    I do support conservatism, so I am vested in supporting the conservative over the progressive, but the idea I’m somehow being unfair here is incorrect.

    You’re invested to the point where you complain I didn’t trash Perry in a comment that was comparing Newt and Romney and not mentioning Perry at all. That’s how vested you are into trashing Rick Perry. I don’t even have a problem with this (it’s a free country), but indeed you really seem to have a big problem with the guy.

    I have no idea what you mean by this, but would appreciate it if you do not attribute positions to me I do not hold.

    You said:

    Colonel – Sorry, I’ll try not to disturb the narrative again.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/15/2011 @ 4:06 pm

    I thought it was clear that was what I was responding to, and didn’t realize this would upset you as I wasn’t even impolite. You act like those you disagree with are building some kind of narrative and you and your pal’s facts are busting that narrative.

    I disagree.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  171. “Because I was asked for examples of Romney getting personal?

    Do you consider every comment that doesn’t bash Perry dishonest now?”

    Dustin – No, but you were calling Romney the most negative candidate and I think you’re leaving out some glaring examples of negativity which disprove your point because they don’t fit your narrative.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  172. “But I didn’t mean to slur all Romney fans, which is how my comment comes across.”

    Dustin – That is how a lot of your anti-Romney comments come across.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  173. DRJ @163–

    Thank you for posting those Gallup figures. Even though poll results are somewhat subjective based on who is asked, when the poll is conducted, and how the questions are phrased, having at least some data to support one’s arguments is useful, no?

    elissa (2f59fa)

  174. daleyrocks,

    I’m sure you aren’t against executive orders so apparently you think it’s much worse for Perry to make a small mistake like Gardasil and admit it, than it is for Romney to make a massive mistake like RomneyCare and stick with it. How ironic.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  175. “You keep seeing only what you want to see with regard to Perry and Romney because you are too vested in the outcome.

    This is exactly how you come across to me.”

    Dustin – I have a hard time seeing that if you write 4x the number of comments I do slanted in one direction, day after day after day after day after day after day after day……..

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  176. DRJ

    Now now there gentle Lawyer – as Mitt said – its not a mistake for Mass, just for the country.

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  177. I complained only about one citation. Read more carefully.

    Um no.

    You’ve spent the entire thread bashing Perry hysterically.

    You have been complaining about Perry the entire damn thread.

    If you want to bash my listing of examples of Romney going negative because Newt also went negative a single time, I think you’re not making a very intelligent argument. Are you opposed to going negative only occasionally, but in support of doing it far more often?

    Or, more likely, are you opposed to going negative on Romney, and in support of doing it in Romney’s defense?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  178. All Romney supporters deserve to get punched in the face.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  179. “I’m sure you aren’t against executive orders so apparently you think it’s much worse for Perry to make a small mistake like Gardasil and admit it”

    DRJ – My reading of the history of the saga is that he very reluctantly admitted it after being furious that the legislature might have the temerity to override his EO.

    I’m not against EO’s but I don’t find the two situations in any way comparable.

    Romney attempted to steer a legislative solution to a pending problem instead of abandoning the field to the opposition as you indicated your preferred candidate should have done. The solution passed was actually better than those attempted in other states such as Maine and Tennessee without mandates but with guaranteed issue. My contention is that the follow on administration botched the intended implementation and there are many analysts who share that view for those who want to take the time to read below the surface.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  180. I seem to recall Romney even praising Perry for having his heart in the right place on Gardasil, with the only problem being how he went about it. Which means Perry and Romney currently have identical stances on the issue, as Perry agrees he went about it wrong.

    Of course, it would be silly for me to take Romney word for what his actual stance is.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  181. In addition, Perry imposed his gardasil mandate through executive order as opposed to going through the legislature,

    Of course he did. How do you think most decisions on school policy are made? Does the legislature decide what schools should make for lunch too, and how many pencils kids should bring to 1st Grade? These are decisions for the executive to make; that’s what the executive is for. Especially in a state like Texas where (by design) the legislature doesn’t meet very often. It was Perry’s decision to make, and he made the right decision; but some irrational people whipped up enough opposition that the legislature overrode it, which was their right and which Perry accepted in good grace. That’s what democracy looks like.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  182. “You have been complaining about Perry the entire damn thread.”

    Dustin – That is called adding balance to your Romney bashing and Perry is the only true conservative claims.

    I’ve also debunked some of your Romney talking point, sorry about that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. I also seem to recall Daleyrocks being really unpleasant in his comments about Gardasil, which he explained as a joke, but I found pretty awful because I think it’s a more serious matter.

    I see Daleyrocks is not wearing the clown nose today. I can only imagine how Daleyrocks would react if I treated Mitt the way he’s treated Perry.

    Not that this matters. Different strokes for different folks.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  184. For any of you wondering why the ignore script doesn’t work on this post, there’s a new version up. This may be the first post on this blog with a title that is a single word, and that broke the script.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  185. Oops, forgot to close the tag there. No matter.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  186. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – Unlike the legislative imperative Romney faced in Massachusetts …

    One more thing: If President Romney someday has to deal with a Democratic Congress the way he did in Massachusetts, does that mean he will join them in passing a national version of RomneyCare? Under your theory of governing, he’d have to give in, wouldn’t he?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  187. “Does the legislature decide what schools should make for lunch too, and how many pencils kids should bring to 1st Grade?”

    Milhouse – The Governor decides that stuff? Really?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. “One more thing: If President Romney someday has to deal with a Democratic Congress the way he did in Massachusetts, does that mean he will join them in passing a national version of RomneyCare? Under your theory of governing, he’d have to give in, wouldn’t he?”

    DRJ – Not if he had a veto that could not be overridden. In Massachusetts they could override his veto power given how stacked the legislature was against him.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  189. Milhouse – The Governor decides that stuff? Really?

    The executive branch decides it. Which means the Governor, or someone acting in his name. Unitary executive, remember?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  190. Dustin – Please don’t take it so personally when I criticize Perry.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  191. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – My reading of the history of the saga is that he very reluctantly admitted it after being furious that the legislature might have the temerity to override his EO.

    My recollection is Perry was reluctant to admit he made a mistake, too. People are that way, but he did admit it and I suspect he learned a valuable conservative lesson as a result. What conservative lesson did Romney learn from passing RomneyCare and defending the individual mandate?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  192. “The executive branch decides it.”

    Milhouse – Then don’t imply it’s normal course for the Governor.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  193. daleyrocks:

    DRJ – Not if he had a veto that could not be overridden. In Massachusetts they could override his veto power given how stacked the legislature was against him.

    So we can only depend on Romney as long as the Democrats never have the power to override his veto.

    That’s good to know.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  194. “What conservative lesson did Romney learn from passing RomneyCare and defending the individual mandate?”

    DRJ – I think he’s learning it every day from the pasting he’s getting over it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. Even with the Gardisil kerfuffle, Perry had people in his administration stuffing their pockets with cash and moving to lucrative employment with the drug companies (e.g., Merck).

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  196. After reading the 8953rd iteration of Perry is a stupid crony capitalist and Romney is an unprincipled proggie, I think I will vote for someone not named Perry or Romney. Not that it matters. The Team R establishment gas decided Mitt is the true conservative, and my State primary us so late it won’t matter. We are sooooooooooo screwed.

    JD (4b216c)

  197. But all of this selling of access and ill-gotten gains bothers Perry supporters not-a-whit.

    Those are the two things that Perry can be depended upon to do: sell access to the state’s business to the highest bidders and line his and his cronies’s pockets with Texas taxpayer monies.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  198. ZOMFG !!!!! A government employee went to work for an evil Pharma company after leaving his public sector job. Ohnoes!

    JD (4b216c)

  199. you can always cast a write-in vote for Buddy Roemer.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  200. Don’t forget there’s another debate starting right now.

    elissa (2f59fa)

  201. The idea that Romney reluctantly went along with RomneyCare seems to be a convenient after the fact excuse.

    JD (4b216c)

  202. Elissa – did you know Perry is so dumb he can’t form sentences, and that Newt is gasp rich, and Romney is a reluctant conservative warrior who is the most electable?

    JD (4b216c)

  203. 86. This issue pressed by yourself, loyal party member we suppose, was that O’D was unworthy of support having already won a closed primary and having run for the very same office some 4 years prior.

    She was illegitimate for reasons including being sponsored by a TEA caucus.

    Now you propose that Indies such as myself are somehow zany because we repeatedly announce our intention to go elsewhere if you are unable to find a candidate other than Romney or Paul, Huntsman, Johnson, et al.

    In what way is this consistent on your part? Because you find Romney fit, whereas O’D wasn’t?

    If you can’t even come close to stating my position correctly it is a waste of time for me to talk to you about this.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  204. And if you’re not up for another debate, tonight a number of PBS stations are broadcasing the Morrmon Tabernacle Choir’s Christmas program. If you watch you will be able to decide for yourself if they’re real Christians or a cult.

    elissa (2f59fa)

  205. “The executive branch decides it.”

    Milhouse – Then don’t imply it’s normal course for the Governor.

    The Governor is the executive branch.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  206. Even with the Gardisil kerfuffle, Perry had people in his administration stuffing their pockets with cash and moving to lucrative employment with the drug companies (e.g., Merck).

    Um, no. One former employee had already left before this issue came up, and had taken a job at Merck. Now explain how that in any way taints the decision. How was this former employee supposed to have influenced the decision, and if so how did it benefit him? And how did it benefit Perry?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  207. That is like Romneyistas criticizing Palin for her class warfare when she said blue blood while in the same breath decrying Newt’s wealth.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  208. The Governor is the executive branch.

    The governor is part of the executive branch.

    Obtuse is loose again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  209. “The idea that Romney reluctantly went along with RomneyCare seems to be a convenient after the fact excuse.”

    JD – Who said that?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  210. “The idea that Romney reluctantly went along with RomneyCare seems to be a convenient after the fact excuse.”

    JD – Read Holman Jenkins in the WSJ from yesterday.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  211. “So we can only depend on Romney as long as the Democrats never have the power to override his veto.

    That’s good to know.”

    DRJ – Me, I can only guess what Romney will do. I am more concerned over Perry’s willingness to cut federal spending given Texas’ liberal use of it compared to Massachusetts. How do you convince yourself that Perry will control federal spending even if it will impact his home state negatively?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  212. He effin credited Kennedy as being the father of RomneyCare, and brought on his own “architect” who subsequently used that model to aid in the construction of BarckyCare. But he only did so because he was forced to by a supermajority.

    JD (4b216c)

  213. “He effin credited Kennedy as being the father of RomneyCare, and brought on his own “architect” who subsequently used that model to aid in the construction of BarckyCare”

    JD – Show me the the Teddy quote. Gruber of course want to claim that Romney is the same as ObamaCare so people will diss Romney. Go back near the politifact thread, I describe the political environment in Mass. leading to the bill. With respect, you are full of it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  214. The Governor is the executive branch.

    The governor is part of the executive branch.

    Um, no. The governor is the executive branch. That is fundamental to constitutional government. Everyone who works for the executive branch works for him, and everything they do they do in his name and with his authority. That’s what the “unitary executive” means.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  215. Milhouse – Play your word games with someone else.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  216. tone

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  217. I am more concerned over Perry’s willingness to cut federal spending given Texas’ liberal use of it compared to Massachusetts. How do you convince yourself that Perry will control federal spending even if it will impact his home state negatively?

    Huh? How does that make any sense? He will be president of the USA, not governor of TX! Why on earth would he still be acting like the governor of TX?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  218. Palin is dumb?

    If she were a democrap the left would consider her a messiah even if she made gaffes.

    And why would we want to vote for a Republican version of Obama he is sure full of himself.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  219. Palin is sorta dumb yeah

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  220. Ted Kennedy’s work in Washington and Beacon Hill was integral to promoting a conservative solution.

    JD (4b216c)

  221. Teddy was not a very good driver, though.

    elissa (c4b759)

  222. Palin is sorta dumb,yeah

    Projection from Americas loveable crappyfeet.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  223. OK, I checked the Texas constitution. Unlike the federal constitution it doesn’t refer at all to the executive power or say where it lies, but it does refer to “the executive department“, and says it consists of five people. The governor is “chief executive officer”, but the other four are also constituents of the executive department. So I guess Texas doesn’t have a unitary executive, as the USA does.

    Still, who has the power and responsibility to make decisions for the state school system? If it’s not the governor, then how could his executive order achieve anything in the first place? The schools would simply ignore it, since they don’t work for him. So it must be the governor’s responsibility, as chief executive officer; which gets us back to where we were. It is decidedly the job of the governor to make these decisions, and it’s immaterial whether he does so on his own or through his agents.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  224. 93, 103, 113. “the only reason Christine O’Donnell’s name should ever come up at all is in the context of lessons that were (or should have been) learned as a result of her most unfortunate candidacy in a most important election.”

    Uncustomarily ridiculous. The DE senator would have made 48, and been odds on fave to be Lincoln Chafee liberal. Retiring the bastard was more valuble than electing him.

    It’s a simple point. The Elites want Romney and blather about, being generous, the 7% or so of the electorate they will gain from the left.

    By any accounting they will lose a bigger passel on the right so its just a misdirection, they don’t like conservatives and they would rather lose(not saying they will).

    If me and sicko, for two, are going to draw a line in the sand and say its time to ditch the Elites even if they have all the money when do we play the card. In 2008, 1996, 1992, 1976, when?

    I couldn’t care less that you don’t believe this is our last chance, that we’ll wake up Nov. 3rd and Europe will be fixed, interest rates will be 2%, unemployment a 7.7%, GDP at 2.9% and we have more of the same, business as usual.

    We’re not smarter, we’re not more moral, not better people. We’re doing our best and we don’t expect you to respect that.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  225. Actually, it was very much an open question whether Perry’s EO was valid for its intended purposes.

    This is why I’ve said Perry was mistaken on this issue, and I’ve said so for years. He has made a handful of errors in his career, which I find acceptable partly because he knows they were mistakes and partly because he really is a good boy 95% of the time.

    When Perry tried to use government to solve something is where he’s gone wrong the few times he has. Thankfully, in Texas, such efforts often fail anyway.

    God Bless Texas.

    I should note that Perry envisions many ways to make DC function more like Texas, and these are very wise reforms that would fundamentally improve this country. Some could say Perry was blessed by Texas’s way of doing things, and Perry just wants to pass those advantages on to the rest of the country.

    The LT Gov, who is often a rival of the Governor, though presently not really, is very powerful in Texas when shaping future policy, but does not run the operational government. Perry has had both roles and I think he’s done very well.

    I also think dealing with this problem is what taught Bush 43 how to deal with a GOP House, which I think he did with extraordinary effectiveness.

    Anyway, I think the issue of Gardasil is arguable, but the issue of whether Perry was just in issuing that EO is not. He made a mistake.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  226. Compared to Gary Kasparov, or John Sununu Sr, or Stephen Hawking, Palin is kinda dumb. (Did you know that Sununu Sr has an IQ of 180, and is something like the 6th smartest person alive? Who’d’a thunk that such a smart guy could have made such a dumb move as to persuade Bush Sr to raise taxes?)

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  227. But compared to GWB, Kerry, 0bama, McCain, Romney, etc. she’s about average.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  228. If the school system isn’t part of the governor’s bailiwick, then whose is it? To whom do the education dept bureaucrats ultimately report? Whose authority do they exercise, if not the governor’s?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  229. Hmm, in this font the numeral 0 looks much like a lower-case o.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  230. Now maybe the faint of heart will give up in March. Mitt consistently pulls 25 percent and when the winner take all contests begin he edges into the mid thirties.

    That’s Goldwater territory. Yeah he piles up the delegates but he’s known to be weak. A Bloomberg or Trump or Nader jumps in just for the ego wall glossies. Think they might collar some of the 7%?

    You know Paul is running. There a 3 or so parties on the right like the Constitution and Indepedence that will run most states.

    All you who say ABO, “you’re irresponsible if you ddon’t vote with the token opposition” get to chew your bartender’s ear off complaining about us leper’s. Go to church, rubes.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  231. Compared to Obama Palin is a smart person.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  232. Compared to Biden 0bama is a smart person. But seriously, Palin seems about in the same range as most politicians, probably somewhere in the 120s.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  233. Wow a kennedy is accusing others of using people?

    Honestly that Citgo commercial is annoying.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  234. 225. Smartest person I knew I put around 175. Completely apolitical, real nice person, GQ looks, last I heard was working for the FBI, I’d believe NSA tho.

    My estimate is simply comparing others who’s IQs I know to be in the 160s, I could easily be on the low side.

    Sununu is a fat little turd, I can’t give him that kind of credit.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  235. Sununu is a c*nt.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  236. But a super-genius one.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  237. How in the world do they accurately measure IQs that high? You would think it’s nearly impossible to measure an IQ well north of 150.

    Anyway, Hoover was thought to be the smartest president we ever had. Being smart is very good, but not enough.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  238. Obama fears a smart opponent that is pragmatic and steady. That’s why he’s ginning up the “occupy” anything movement and creating a situation pitting one American against another now. He wants conservative Americans to be revulsed by it and for us to choose the most “fire and brimstone” candidate we have to oppose him. Ron Paul would be a wet dream and next to that it would be Newt. He doesn’t want people that voted for him who are not drones to stay home on election day. He’s a snake oil salesman with a billion dollars to spend attacking his opponent and/or getting his base ginned up. It might happen with Bachmann, Santorum, and it definitely will work with Newt and Ron Paul. Huntsman worked for Obama and he’s never been worried about him. Why do you think the attacks on Newt are coming from the right? They see what he’s doing. The attacks on Romney are coming from the DNC. The attacks on Herman Cain and Rick Perry are coming from the Left. They’re telling us who they fear the most.

    Dave B (982f20)

  239. 236. I’m thinking its the speed with which they learn. The guy I knew would get conclusions instantly from the evidence I wouldn’t get all day.

    The chick who’s currently top rated, something north of 210, I forget, even speaks tommy gun quick.

    People who are that smart are not interested in power generally. Take Newton, yeah, he served as Chancellor of the Exchequer but more as an intellectual challenge.

    Or take Maxwell, Enstein, Chandrasekhar, Dirac, Goedel, Feynman,…

    The guy I knew didn’t even bother with an advanced degree, might have had a couple of Masters.

    Maxwell and Newton spent their later years on religion. Chandrasekhar on Newton’s Principia in Latin. Feynman on Siberian throat music. Goedel on esoterica like an alternate approach to Enstein’s unified field theorem(they walked to and from work together at Princeton for more than a decade).

    Sununu is by comparison a bright prosimian.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  240. Oh, one last thought on intelligence, ethnicity.

    A lot of the brightest people I worked with were Russians but note the greatest geniuses are over represented by Scotsman, German Jews, Frenchmen, Punjabis and the guy I knew is Basque.

    Not a single Norwegian among them. Can’t think of a Swede or Suomi either.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  241. Nominating Clarence Thomas is Bush 41′s greatest accomplishment.

    — Gulf War; taking out Noriega; fall of the Berlin Wall; collapse of the Soviet Union. Nominating Thomas WAS great, but some other pretty good things happened during his watch, as well.

    Icy (93603c)

  242. Well said Icy

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  243. Dustin:
    Mitt’s screeching about abolishing social security is probably the worst I’ve ever seen from a legitimate GOP primary candidate.
    — Link and/or quotes, please. If I was willing to accept a partisan ad hom I would be talking to EPWJ.

    Mitt demanded Rick Perry criticize an entire religious group Rick disagreed with, in a shameless effort to play the Al Sharpton card.
    — Same response as above.

    Romney has responded to Newt’s generally kind campaign by trashing Newt’s wife’s jewelry habit. ““Zany is not what we need in a president,” Mr. Romney said.” He’s also called Newt “erratic”. These are personal insults that are unpresidential, especially given that Newt is being criticized for flip flops by Mitt of all people. Especially given that Newt has been a lot nicer to competitors than most politicians are. Damn, this is making it personal.
    — News Flash: I AGREE. Now, where is the example of “the hate he’s shown to conservatives”?

    Mitt Romney has a long record of being an ad hominem and hysterical politician. This is one reason I think Mitt would do anything for power.
    — What’s he gonna do … sacrifice virgins? punch a kitten? draw a pentagram on the floor of his son’s basement where he lives?

    I’m not surprised you were ignorant about Romney’s record. I am encouraged that you now need examples before drawing conclusions, Icy.
    — And I remain ignorant. Show me the examples of “hate”, Dustin.

    Icy (93603c)

  244. Dustin:
    “I’m not surprised you were ignorant about Romney’s record”
    Icy, I wish I could withdraw this remark.

    — I bet you do. In conjunction with your multiple “coward” and “man up” comments it kinda makes you sound like a dick. I did not ask you to prove that Romney has engaged in personal attacks; I freely acknowledge that fact. I specifically asked you to cite examples of Romney displaying “hate” for his fellow Republicans. Please feel free to do that now.

    You and your two pals seem to be very personal in the way you’ve reacted to my discussion of Romney’s flaws, but nothing about the comment I responded to justified an insult. While I’m justified in reacting to you this way, doing so serves no purpose.
    — And I insulted you How? Please (PLEASE!!!) understand that the people that debate you disagree with you positons on the issues. It’s NOT personal!

    I shouldn’t hold grudges about even extreme ugliness online so long as it’s just limited to comments. It’s just not important.
    — Agreed. And this is why I’ve NEVER displayed extreme ugliness towards you.

    Icy (93603c)

  245. Oh, and “you and your two pals” makes it sound like daleyrocks, Haiku and myself are engaging in some sort of coordinated attack against you. Well . . . taint happenin’. I am NOT supporting Mitt Romney, and will not do so unless and until he becomes the nominee.

    Icy (93603c)

  246. “your positions”

    [“you positons” mangled by my iPhone]

    Icy (93603c)

  247. Politico is saying Nikki’s gonna endorse Romney.

    So much for her career.

    H.W. botched his end of the Gulf War, and gets no cred for the Wall, Pink Floyd gets more.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  248. It would be more accurate to say, it was his most enduring achievement, yes, it is more arguable to say, who vouched for her through the primary, it wasn’t Mittens certainly.

    narciso (87e966)

  249. Icy, you have granted that Romney has shown a long series of needlessly personal attacks on the other Republican candidates. You asked for examples and I provided them.

    You simply dispute one of the ways I characterized this, while granting the substance of my point.

    Romney dishes it out, but it doesn’t seem like he can take it. That was my point.

    Hate is probably not the best word for nastiness such as you have granted Romney has shown. Whatever word you want to use is fine with me. We seem to agree he can dish it out.

    My worst example is the ‘abolish social security’ one. I think this is the kind of scare tactic that shows a profound contempt for the success of the political party or the overall long term mission we are inevitably on It’s the kind of notion that costs the party elections. Just that scare tactic alone is going to make it that much harder for whoever is the next President to make substantial reforms.

    The kind of comment you are suggesting I need to show probably sounds like ‘I hate you, you scumbag, go to hell!’, but I find the ‘abolish’ line to be far harsher on what I value. Anyway, I didn’t realize it was simply the term ‘hate’ and not the pattern of behavior. Wish you had made that more clear.

    And I insulted you How? Please (PLEASE!!!)

    You’ve insulted me on several occasions, Icy. I don’t wish to re-litigate it, but you should review the way you’ve described me in the past couple of threads we’ve had discussions and see.

    And just for fun Dustin himself doubled down by saying that the primary should not be a referendum on Mormonism because Romney isn’t a ‘real Mormon’ anyway. Classy, Dustin.

    You put that argument in my mouth. Plenty of religious people will hold that abortion flip flop against Romney, but this is OK. There is a big difference between that and religious intolerance, and my only point was that Mormonism and its details are not good things to use to make your choice in this primary. Mormonism is very unlikely to be the reason behind any significant decisions Romney makes as president. That’s what my example showed.

    You have a tendency to attempt to referee, and do so poorly, and ignore when that’s explained, vanishing just to appear in a new thread to referee with more insults and less reasoning.

    Someone fabricated a claim about my bigotry in the sockpuppet thread, and you refereed my criticism of this commenter. You complained about how because you’re so nice you can’t tell me if you think I’m thin skinned, and because I insulted someone smearing BS bigotry claims a la Sharpton, then hiding, for cowardice and dishonesty.

    What do you care if I call the trash who left those comments a trashy coward who is too stupid to even follow a conversation?

    anyway, I instigated, I shouldn’t have and said so, and you apparently don’t want to be cool about it because the internet is SRS business and simple ‘my bad’ comments aren’t good enough for you.

    Whatever, man.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  250. Oh, and “you and your two pals” makes it sound like daleyrocks, Haiku and myself are engaging in some sort of coordinated attack against you.

    Oh, I realize it’s not coordinated. For God’s sake there is no reason to put arguments in my mouth.

    But yeah, it’s kinda the three amigos with you guys sometimes, and in your case, not theirs but yours, I get the impression you’re sticking for a pal because you will make points that actually make a lot more sense in my favor (such as your complaint about using google searches for showing relevance of a subject).

    Dustin (cb3719)

  251. dustin

    Dont engage them – why? Its not going to change their mind and it will just deepen the chasim where even Jesse Jackson cannot bring piece to both sides 🙂

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  252. Inconvenient facts have a way of messing up the narrative, Dustin, with apologies after the damage
    has been done;

    http://www.biztimes.com/daily/2011/12/15/#after-further-review-wisconsin-unemployment-rate-falls-to-73

    narciso (87e966)

  253. peace, not piece, as in I’m going to pieces over my inability to write on a third grade level, peace oout

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  254. “Mitts own words should suffice.”

    JD – With the cuts in the video, that’s a real clear reference! He cites Kennedy’s work in Washington. Was he a long distance sperm donor? Nice try, no cigar.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  255. EPWJ, even though I’m obviously not successfully handling Icy well, I respect him and think we just have very different views of Mitt Romney. I’m not surprised that those who honestly disagree with me on Romney (good people, btw) will find my extreme distaste for Romney annoying. It’s not intentional on my part.

    Anyway I respect Daleyrocks and Icy, and sometimes they are both very challenging to debate because they aren’t stupid and they aren’t dishonest.

    I think all sides have leveled some insults, and to some extent, why the hell not? Can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But sometimes it’s time to chill a little.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  256. Jesse Jackson cannot bring piece to both sides

    This is funnier with the typo. I thought you were making a clever gun related double entendre.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  257. ““Zany is not what we need in a president,” Mr. Romney said.”

    Icy – The Zany bit apparently came from the NYT reporter rather than Mitt, but has been propagated as a Mitt quote. Nicely done NYT.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  258. Yeah that’s it dustin, or file it under even with all my entries occassionally subject verb agreement is bound to happen..

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  259. Well apparently, Zeleny was just not as ‘enchanted’ with Romney.

    narciso (87e966)

  260. And EPWJ, maybe you’re right. I hope not, but there is a deep division in the GOP and I’m not seeing a solution.

    I know I will be able to vote Romney if he’s the nominee. I suspect high info voters who support Romney are also going to vote for anyone the GOP is likely to nominate.

    I gotta get my Romney bash on somewhere.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  261. 256. No, Laura featured the tape yesterday. It was Mitt.

    gary gulrud (7d9076)

  262. Some people really don’t like Newt Gingrich. If there’s a big reason, they’ve kept it secret from the rest of us.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  263. Newt Gingrich is a little bit impressed with himself and he has a tendency to latch on to new ideas a little bit too easily. And he took a little money in the last decade for doing something that was not clearly wrong, but might have been. That seems to be about the gist of the big complaints.

    There are positives too. Paying attention to ideas is a very important positive. It just is that ideas needs more thorough examination, but not to the point of ignoring them. Ignoring things that aren’t working is the big problem in government.

    And I think lobbyists are more concerned that Newt Gingrich won’t pay attention to them than hopeful that he will. In spite of having consulted for some people.

    Newt Gingrich’s bad ideas are not likely to go very far, especially in domestic policy.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  264. Romney at the moment seems to outpoll Newt Gingrich y about 2%.

    The worst problem with Newt gingrich is that he sems to be latching on to some Ron Paul and other’s anti-fed anti-monetary expansion ideas.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  265. 261. Rush thinks its because he had success, the love faded at that point and became anger when the shutdown ‘backfired’.

    Bohner isn’t hating on Newt, but he certainly took the lesson never to fight and never take a loss.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  266. Please! No more of that crap about Perry’s valiant struggle, his brave conservatism. What a sh*theel!

    “Yes, he’s still governor. He’s “retired” only for benefits purposes, which means he can start collecting his pension while he’s still collecting a salary. It’s perfectly legal. Just … unhelpful.

    Perry makes a $150,000 annual gross salary as Texas govenor. Now, thanks to his early retirement, Perry, 61, gets a monthly retirement annuity of $7,698 before taxes, or $6,588 net. That raises his gross annual salary to more than $240,000…

    [T]he disclosure is sure to spark criticism of Perry, who has called for sweeping changes to Social Security for average workers and has railed against special “perks” that members of Congress get.

    “Perry was legally able to begin collecting the employee class annuity under the ‘rule of 80.’ The combination of his U.S. military service, state service and age exceeded 80 years and qualifies him for the annuity under Texas Government Code 813.503 as amended in 1991,” Sullivan said. “Perry continues to pay into the Employees Retirement System with a 6.5 percent withholding from his state salary.”…

    “I do advocate totally rethinking the safety net, personal security programs completely,” Perry said in a November 2010 interview. “Why is the government collecting your tax money for retirement and health care programs? That’s not a stated constitutional role.” ”

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/16/perry-retires-early-begins-collecting-government-pension/

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  267. Perry supporters have to be feeling like real http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/12/ASS.jpg
    right about now.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  268. Col

    He paid for that retirement, its been the law since 1991. Its not a loophole. nd he still pays into the program.

    Its a defined pension.

    Rep Bachmann (e83e82)

  269. David Brooks says the Team R establishment whores like himself what are pimping Wall Street Romney will draft Jeb Bush if Gingrich looks to be in position to snag the nomination

    for reals

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  270. are we all listening to this canadian christian kid drummy drum drum cause of if we’re not we probably should cause of he’s a kick ass lil dude so click cause of even if mitt is threatening to be the nominee it’s still christmas for christ’s sakes

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  271. Wow, Perry is a “shitheel” for collecting the pension he earned from service in the military and the state government?

    Why?

    Mitt Romney earned his millions working for Bain. Perry earned his $150k or whatever working many years for the state of Texas.

    NRO (who endorses Romney) claims Perry’s work for Texas is “exemplary”. Why in the world shouldn’t Perry be paid?

    He earned that pension. He also earns his salary.

    This ‘how can someone successful enough to earn six figures and collect the wealth he earned dare reform social security’ is just a nonsense argument.

    I don’t see the hypocrisy Haiku seems to see. Perry notes that there is no constitutional role for government to handle your retirement and other needs, but that means as a citizen… not as an employee. Of course a government should pay its employees.

    This is the dumbest attack on Perry yet.

    Was Haiku complaining about this pension for veterans and state employees before he knew Perry earned it?

    A lot of people here have earned a nice pension. They planned ahead, or sought an employer who arranged a decent retirement. Perry has been running a multibillion dollar organization for a decade, and he’s done it very well. I don’t think his compensation is out of line.

    Anyway, I guess every few days brings a new strange attack on Rick Perry’s horrible corruption. Usually it’s something that isn’t corrupt at all. Maybe eventually something will stick?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  272. Colonel – How sweet it is!

    You don’t see deals like that in the private sector.

    Gov. Perry, maximizing his take from Texas taxpayers.

    Wonder if he’s talking about reforming his own system.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  273. ease! No more of that crap about Perry’s valiant struggle, his brave conservatism. What a sh*theel!

    You really don’t like this guy. Sheesh.

    He just worked for a living. It’s not dishonorable in any way. Lots of people have pensions. Lots of top level executives have pensions. This would be a scandal if he were a meter maid in California, but Perry’s compensation is reasonable… even a bargain.

    Even NRO, Romney’s fans, note that Perry’s work as governor has been “exemplary”.

    You order us not to talk about Perry’s brave conservatism in the same breath that you trash him for promising to reform social security, which is one of the bravest things for a presidential aspirant to do (just look at Romney promise more entitlement spending and compare).

    Dustin (cb3719)

  274. Tone deaf, bone headed move on Perry’s part.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  275. I must be biased to the point of severe mental illness, as I see no injustice here. I can’t even fathom it.

    I would do this myself in Perry’s position.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  276. dustin

    Yeah, a self funded pension system that has required and defined contributions of almost 7% of gross income for 30+ years including military service, Perry should give it all back and his ranch, and stay in a pup tent on the grounds of the burnt out Gov mansion.

    Its the only way to be authentic – you know like dodging the draft while biking in France

    Rep Bachmann (e83e82)

  277. I dont know why it keeps referring back to my socky

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  278. Sorry about that Stashiu

    [no worries, it was clearly unintentional. I’m just getting caught up anyway. Thank you for owning up, but I didn’t see a need for me to mention it. –Stashiu]

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  279. I must be biased to the point of severe mental illness, as I see no injustice here. I can’t even fathom it.

    Comment by Dustin

    The path to self-discovery… it’s a beautiful thing.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  280. Perry should’ve waited til he got his matching funds and exited the race gracefully instead of pissing on all of his supporters like this I think

    call it what you want but boyfriend is just another piggy in the trough I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  281. You don’t see deals like that in the private sector.

    Gov. Perry, maximizing his take from Texas taxpayers.

    Wonder if he’s talking about reforming his own system.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    In Perry’s eyes, Texas has always been ripe for the pluckin’. Unbelievably tone deaf.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  282. Col

    So what is a defined pension plan mean to you?

    Is this more accuracy like your billions claim?

    Or the TTC? did you write Breitbart and tell him he was wrong about publishing articles debunking your claims?

    So, he should have given back 30 years of contributions in a defined pension plan?

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  283. Mamas don’t let yer babies grow up to be workin’ stiffs
    don’t let ’em work long hours and drive them old trucks
    let ’em be lawyers and gubners and such

    gubners like double-dippin, not takin’ a-whippin’
    and them that do know ‘im won’t like ‘im
    but then them that do sometimes won’t know how to take ‘im

    He’s plain wrong, and he’s different and his greed won’t let ‘im
    Do the things that’ll make you think he’s right in the head.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  284. “I would do this myself in Perry’s position.”

    If I had the opportunity to double dip, I probably would too.

    That’s why it so perfectly illustrates what is wrong with public sector compensation structures.

    D’oh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  285. Actually, if I had even a thought of running for office, I would have let the money sit longer and keep accumulating, because taking distributions looks like a PR nightmare.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  286. people gave nikki haley a lot of money and energy and it wasn’t for so she could whore herself out to Romney

    sad little dumb bunny will be joining Palin soon in the washed up bimbos circle

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  287. That’s why it so perfectly illustrates what is wrong with public sector compensation structures.

    Legitimate point, of course. Some think we shouldn’t have this arrangement.

    Personally, I think it’s a problem in some cases and a great thing in other cases.

    But Perry wasn’t born a millionaire. He’s not really that wealthy… about what you’d expect from someone earning a low six figure salary for a decade.

    He is just being a reasonable person to use the best pension option he could, which is the compensation he 100% earned.

    His fighting for entitlement reform, particularly social security reform, is something I find brave because it opens the door to relentless demagoguery like the ‘he’s got his… where’s mine!?!?!?’ concept.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  288. social security is for suckers is the takeaway here

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  289. His fighting for entitlement reform, particularly social security reform, is something I find brave…

    I never in a million years would have predicted this reaction… sarcasm/off

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  290. It’s interesting though, from an academic standpoint, who vouched for Haley, when she was under attack by Will Folks and the old bulls of
    the SC establishment like McMaster and that rocket
    scientist Andre Bauer, as well as Bachmann’s state
    chair,

    narciso (87e966)

  291. yes she’s betraying a lot of people who really went to the mat for her

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  292. Happy,

    someone over at Hotair in the comments section posted a list of large campaign donations to Nikki’s campaign fund – I dony know if its for reals

    from mitts pac

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  293. I saw some Wall Street Romney fanclubber in the comments making the argument that Wall Street Romney’s strategy is to be anointed by superdelegates

    … is that really possible?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  294. Well it’s not as if either of you would give Haley
    credit, for her part, in the administration’s war on her state, via the NLRB, just as with Perry’s
    Texas, or Parnell’s Alaska, or Brewer’s Arizona, forget I brought it up.

    narciso (87e966)

  295. “which is the compensation he 100% earned.”

    This issue is not on the table. People can stop pretending it is.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  296. yes you are right Nikki Haley is a fully-owned subsidiary of Wall Street Romney Inc

    Perhaps no elected official has received as much attention from Mr. Romney as Gov. Nikki R. Haley of South Carolina, whose support in the state is highly sought after by the Republican candidates for president.

    Early in last year’s heated Republican primary there, Mr. Romney endorsed Ms. Haley, followed by Sarah Palin and other conservative luminaries. That spring, Mr. Romney campaigned with Ms. Haley. Two weeks after Ms. Haley sewed up the Republican nomination, Mr. Romney organized a Boston meet-and-greet with donors for her, and that fall he stumped with her.

    Meanwhile, Mr. Romney’s network of political action committees was virtually inundating Ms. Haley with campaign cash: from March to August last year, four state PACs founded by Mr. Romney sent more than $38,000 to Ms. Haley’s campaign, triple what Mr. Romney himself would have been allowed to contribute under South Carolina campaign law.

    “Governor and Mrs. Romney got involved in the campaign when not a lot of people had gotten behind Nikki,” said Tim Pearson, Ms. Haley’s chief of staff. “They didn’t have to. And she’s always appreciated their support and friendship.”

    unprincipled whores the both of them

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  297. Talking the talk but not walking the walk.

    Entitlement reform starts at home Mr. Perry.

    Way to set an example.

    Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  298. Dustin at #85:
    Mitt Romney has even bashed Ronald Reagan’s leadership.

    — Did you actually watch the clip that you linked? Mitt does not ‘bash’ Reagan’s leadership AT ALL.

    [Worry not, for the truth WILL win out … if you can find it.]

    Icy (93603c)

  299. Romney supported a good conservative candidate in 2010?

    The horror, the horror!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  300. Dustin at #136:
    Icy asked for specific examples (for some reason, I guess he missed the post’s links) so I offered many examples.

    — That is correct. I asked for examples of Mitt directing “hate” (your word) at fellow Republicans. All you have done is provide examples of him going negative. Going negative does NOT equate to expressing hate; it can, but one does not automatically beget the other. So, I will continue to scroll down looking for examples, but feel free to provide some, just in case I missed it.

    Icy (93603c)

  301. And Perry’s had an opt out for parents
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/15/2011 @ 4:24 pm

    — Just as Obama prefers an “opt out” for union membership and auto-enrollment in 401k plans. Meanwhile, freedom loving people everywhere still prefer opt-IN plans.

    Icy (93603c)

  302. Wall Street Romney doesn’t have an opt-out for his version of obamacare in fact the state will rape you silly if you don’t play along

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  303. Icy, you have granted that Romney has shown a long series of needlessly personal attacks on the other Republican candidates. You asked for examples and I provided them.
    — No, I specifically asked for examples of “the hate he’s shown to conservatives and moderates”. Where is the HATE, Dustin?

    You simply dispute one of the ways I characterized this, while granting the substance of my point.
    — Do you therefore retract your use of the word “hate”?

    Romney dishes it out, but it doesn’t seem like he can take it. That was my point.
    — That’s fair. And none of them should be going negative like this.

    Hate is probably not the best word for nastiness such as you have granted Romney has shown. Whatever word you want to use is fine with me. We seem to agree he can dish it out.
    — it is a TACTIC. In my opinion a bad tactic.

    Icy (93603c)

  304. Guess Romney doesn’t want his fellow missionaries talking to the Media:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/8959440/US-election-2012-Mitt-Romneys-life-as-a-poor-Mormon-missionary-in-France-questioned.html

    Seems the real problem with chateau was not all rooms had a bath en suite.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  305. Romney was in France July 1966, before George was elected to third term as Governor, to December 1968, when George was named HUD Director, i.e., he was in France during the run for President. The race was lost in NH.

    The formal presentation of the Cabinet was December 11th.

    December 7th the LDS broke ground on the D.C. Temple and George, High Priest and patriarch of the Detroit Stake, builder of the first tabernacle east of the Mississippi, and cousin Marion, member Quorum of the Twelve would have been present.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  306. You’ve insulted me on several occasions, Icy. I don’t wish to re-litigate it, but you should review the way you’ve described me in the past couple of threads we’ve had discussions and see.
    — I was not aware that I had “described” you at all.

    Me: And just for fun Dustin himself doubled down by saying that the primary should not be a referendum on Mormonism because Romney isn’t a ‘real Mormon’ anyway. Classy, Dustin.
    Dustin: You put that argument in my mouth.
    — Nooo, I voiced an opinion about what you wrote, and then you turned it into an argument.

    Plenty of religious people will hold that abortion flip flop against Romney, but this is OK.
    — It had better be OK, since Ronald Reagan committed a very similar “flip-flop” and was praised for coming around to the correct view on the issue.

    There is a big difference between that and religious intolerance, and my only point was that Mormonism and its details are not good things to use to make your choice in this primary.
    — I AGREE with that statement.

    Mormonism is very unlikely to be the reason behind any significant decisions Romney makes as president. That’s what my example showed.
    — That is your conclusion; a conclusion that IMHO questions Romney’s commitment to his faith. I DO NOT agree with that statement.

    You have a tendency to attempt to referee, and do so poorly, and ignore when that’s explained, vanishing just to appear in a new thread to referee with more insults and less reasoning.
    — What does that even mean? “attempt to referee”. For my part, I am voicing my opinion of what you wrote; period. It sure sounds like you’re voicing a “you’re not debating the right way” complaint.

    Icy (a53963)

  307. Someone fabricated a claim about my bigotry in the sockpuppet thread,
    — Not me. I don’t think you are a bigot.

    and you refereed my criticism of this commenter.
    — So “refereed” means I commented on one of your comments?

    You complained about how because you’re so nice you can’t tell me if you think I’m thin skinned
    — How was that statement a complaint?

    and because I insulted someone smearing BS bigotry claims a la Sharpton, then hiding, for cowardice and dishonesty.
    — No, you specifically compared ME to Sharpton, and as of this writing you still have not explained that statement. And no, I don’t ‘hide’. Like any decent conservative I work full-time, and I blog when time permits.

    What do you care if I call the trash who left those comments a trashy coward who is too stupid to even follow a conversation?
    — Because it’s rude; because it is personalizing a political and philosophical discussion; because you have directly called me a coward and told me to “man up”, when all I wish to do is discuss each other’s opinions.

    anyway, I instigated, I shouldn’t have and said so, and you apparently don’t want to be cool about it
    — I’m the coolest guy you don’t know.

    because the internet is SRS business and simple ‘my bad’ comments aren’t good enough for you.
    — Sometimes I’m serious, sometimes sarcastic, sometimes both at the same time. Simply put, I’m NOT a coward. If you challenge me to respond, and I feel that I have something to say on the subject, then I actually will show you that courtesy.

    Icy (a53963)

  308. Nikki’s approval rating among S.C. Republicans stood at 65.7% in February, now sits at 52.5%.

    Newt’s has slackened to 38.4% from 41% and Romney unchanged at 21% following a week of attacks.

    Perry at 10% will benefit most from the endorsement, but probably too little to matter.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  309. Oh, I realize it’s not coordinated. For God’s sake there is no reason to put arguments in my mouth.
    — Indignation!

    But yeah, it’s kinda the three amigos with you guys sometimes
    — Acknowledgement

    in your case, not theirs but yours, I get the impression you’re sticking for a pal because you will make points that actually make a lot more sense in my favor (such as your complaint about using google searches for showing relevance of a subject).
    — I was “sticking up for a pal” in that case because I agree with Haiku’s side of the argument; period. If I agree with your side of an argument, then I will stick up for you, too, pal.

    Icy (a53963)

  310. Icy – The Zany bit apparently came from the NYT reporter rather than Mitt, but has been propagated as a Mitt quote. Nicely done NYT.
    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/16/2011 @ 6:58 am

    — The audio is out there. Perhaps the reporter proffered the “zany” label, but Mitt is responsible for running with it.

    Icy (a53963)

  311. Dont engage them – why? Its not going to change their mind and it will just deepen the chasim where even Jesse Jackson cannot bring piece to both sides
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/16/2011 @ 6:47 am
    — Yeah! I mean GOD FORBID that people of differing opinions would debate the issues of the day within the confines of an open-forum political blog. Why, it might lead one to question why all of us are wasting our time here!

    OTOH, Eric could change my mind by the simple act of producing that “disgusting” Cain ad, so I guess anything is possible.

    Yeah that’s it dustin, or file it under even with all my entries occassionally subject verb agreement is bound to happen..
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 12/16/2011 @ 6:59 am
    — subject-verb agreement primer:
    Rick Perry IS a conservative (SUCCESS)
    Two million Jews IN Iran (EPIC FAIL)

    Icy (a53963)

  312. Romney supported a good conservative candidate in 2010? The horror, the horror!
    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/16/2011 @ 10:36 pm

    — daleyrocks, how . . . DARE you make sense!?!?

    Icy (a53963)

  313. No, you specifically compared ME to Sharpton, and as of this writing you still have not explained that statement.

    Is it the “hair- do don’t”, Icy?

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  314. Christmas comes early for the Congressional GOP and Romney:

    “Mitt Romney by almost every account won the last debate of 2011, and did so handily. To that strong showing he added the endorsement of South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, which means when he is attacked for being the establishment’s choice, the establishment now includes Haley, Chris Christie, Tim Pawlenty, John Thune and a long list of Tea Party leaders and Tea Party-supported Congressmen like California’s John Campbell and Dana Rohrabacher. The MSM lefties have retreated to “he can’t break above 25%, having given up on the $10K bet as the “great gaffe of 2011″ meme in less than a week.”

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/ebdb68ce-0c5d-4d6a-978e-efa36405b662

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  315. the Bemidji Midget
    runnin’ with the pack and just
    try to hold him back

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  316. To that strong showing he added the endorsement of South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley

    we saw at #298 how Wall Street Romney used no less than 4 PACs to turn Nikki Haley into his personal whore… this doesn’t mean what Hugh Hewitt thinks it means

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  317. As the late Sen, McComb (from Time Cop) you need money to win elections, now that contest is three
    years away, but it’s always good to stock up,

    narciso (87e966)

  318. Climate Change AKA Gorebull Warming is not real.

    Polar Bears are not going to go extinct in 50 years.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  319. happy doesn’t think
    that other Repubs would give
    left nut for that “get”

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  320. Anyways Polar Bears can swim.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  321. the “Texas Two-Step”?
    the “Cotton-eyed Joe”? now the
    “Texas Double-Dip”!

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  322. I think Darling Nikki’s gonna take a big hit for betraying her most energized supporters

    this is even worse than when that Palin hoochie endorsed Meghan’s coward daddy cause there was a sense among many people that the geriatric fop had somehow earned her loyalty

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  323. Nikki Haley’s fight
    against NLRB is
    “something I find brave”

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  324. and/or “her job”

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  325. hey there Dustin with your brown beak on
    I bet you could double-dip all year long
    dip in your beak, now pull it away
    come back for more the very next day
    you’re double-dippin’, you’re double-dippin’
    you’re double-dippin’, you’re double-dippin’

    lil’ AD, he said to Sue
    if I double-dip, would ya double-dip too?
    Sue tol’ AD, “hey, I’m 83”
    “been double-dippin’ like the money was free!”
    they’re double-dippin’, they’re double-dippin’
    they’re double-dippin’, they’re double-dippin’

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  326. I’ve heard many say it is wrong to criticize Romney for policies that the democrats worked with Romney on, or the democrats made worse (even when I think Romney opened the door to that, such as with Romneycare).

    Some of these same folks are criticizing a pension policy that I believe was created long before Perry’s time in office, by democrats.

    I’ve never heard a great push in Texas to change this policy and don’t see a problem with it.

    Again I find Haiku completely inconsistent and with no sense of proportion or fairness, simply taking something someone said about Perry to be 100% accurate if it’s negative and 100% ridiculous if it’s positive. There is no sense that he actually has thoughts one could apply to both and see any kind of consistency.

    It’s just “Perry bad, Romney good”.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  327. Stop screeching and hating on Republicans, Dustin.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  328. ______________________________________________

    Anyway, Hoover was thought to be the smartest president we ever had.

    But his reputation was and still is in tatters—and since he leaned left, deservedly so. In a way, he’s a 1930s version of George W Bush, although I think Bush (bloated budgets notwithstanding) adhered closer to sensible conservatism on more occasions than the Republican in the White House during the Great Depression.

    Hoover’s successor, Franklin Roosevelt, took the big tax and do-gooder policies of Hoover to the next level, and the economy remained in a shambles no less under him than under Hoover. But Hoover was the one who was vilified by a large portion of the public before he was voted out of office and for decades following the Great Depression. Meanwhile, FDR got big hugs and kisses for being a supposed savior and figure of hope (echoes of Obama?) in America over 60 years ago.

    I mention this because based on recent opinion polls, President “Goddamn America” continues to receive way too much support over competitors like Romney, Gingrich, Perry, Cain, etc.

    Even in 2011, Bush still is blamed by far more Americans for the current Great Recession than the way they judge Obama. IOW, if many people didn’t naturally give more benefit of the doubt to liberals instead of conservatives — because a liberal in their eyes is nice ol’ “mommy,” while a conservative is boring ol’ “daddy” — Obama would be far lower in surveys.

    That a cruddy ultra liberal like the current occupant of the White House could win in 2008, and that his Democrat predecessor could be as scroungy as Bill Clinton was, illustrates just how decadent and deviant liberalism has become over the decades and how acceptable that form of leftism has become compared with what was true during the era of Hoover and FDR.

    This should not be forgotten when trying to figure out the best candidates and strategies for 2012. IOW, look around you and realize a lot of your fellow citizens — your family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, acquaintances, etc — can easily turn to liberalism on any number of occasions in the most idiotic way imaginable.

    Mark (411533)

  329. I find Dustin completely incongruous and incontinent in his use of invective and adjectives.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  330. In short, Dustin cain’t hold his mud.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  331. I thought retirement benefits were intended for retirees.

    I formula based rules exist allowing people to collect retirement benefits from employers while still working for the same employer, common sense suggests they should be examined.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  332. Nice “work” if you can get it, daley!

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  333. mebbe perry should come back under contract?

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  334. Just makes Governor Goober seem oblivious to the struggles other states around the country are having with the terms and funding of employee pensions. It’s pretty damn simple.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  335. Governor Goober? Really? How clever.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  336. “Governor Goober? Really? How clever.”

    DRJ – I realize any criticism of Perry brings out the touchiness of his supporters. He worked on the family farm, was Ag Secretary, made a boneheaded move, so yes it fits. KI will endeavor to do better in the future.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  337. Perry should address this issue before it goes nuklar.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  338. I realize any criticism of Romney brings out the mafiaesque mentality in his worshippers.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  339. polar bearsz drink Coke.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  340. two words… scozza fava.

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  341. Right, we can always follow the example of Pat Quinn, until he’s indicted not to break the pattern, like Edgar and Thompson.

    narciso (87e966)

  342. three words… Flip Flopney

    Oh god love ya that is two words.

    By the way the rednecks at LGF are shitting themselves in glee over the GOP debate.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  343. “I realize any criticism of Romney brings out the mafiaesque mentality in his worshippers.”

    Dohbiden – As usual, your perceptiveness preceeds you. All the media writing about Perry’s pensions are obvious Romneybots.

    Meanwhile, from Perry supporters, all we hear are rationalizations:

    It’s legal
    It’s not that much money
    I would have done it
    He earned the benefit

    And so on, completely missing the point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  344. I guess there are folks who see a speed limit they think is too high, though no one in that area actually has a big problem with that speed limit, and then start yelling at people who were driving the speed limit. Then some of these folks even note they think they would drive that fast personally, but someone they don’t like drove that fast, so they are responsible for the speed limit.

    BTW, I’m not sure the Texas Governor could overhaul his policy even if he wanted to.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  345. Romney should address his quaint -“I shit in a bucket while living in a French palace-with a maid” story before it goes all Kerry scary.

    madawaskan (89a442)

  346. Perry is collecting his while signing laws to make it harder for others to do the same thing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  347. BTW, I’m not sure the Texas Governor could overhaul his policy even if he wanted to.

    the Brave Sir Robyn…

    Colonel Haiku (2add70)

  348. Most guys were in Vietnam when Mitt had to shit in a bucket!!1!11

    The Humanity!!!!

    madawaskan (89a442)

  349. Burn Him!!!

    madawaskan (89a442)

  350. “BTW, I’m not sure the Texas Governor could overhaul his policy even if he wanted to.”

    There was a bill to do just such a thing that did not make it out of committee this past legislative session.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  351. I’m talking about the guys bashing Perry…

    madawaskan (89a442)

  352. What-you don’t want to talk about Mitt’s shit-literally?

    Pourquoi?

    madawaskan (89a442)

  353. Is it the “hair- do don’t”, Icy?
    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/17/2011 @ 6:46 am

    — Colonel, I am the exact opposite of Reverend Al in that department . . . closer to Larry from The Three Stooges.

    Icy (a53963)

  354. Burn Him!!!

    With Nikki Haley!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  355. “Romney should address his quaint -”I shit in a bucket while living in a French palace-with a maid” story before it goes all Kerry scary.”

    madawaskan – People should read that story a little more closely and understand the differences in a description between living in an apartment and living in a home and also quotes from people actually familiar with the conditions in which Romney lived outside the Mission House in Paris.

    Reading comprehension is not one of gulrud’s strengths.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  356. Wall Street Romney doesn’t have an opt-out for his version of obamacare in fact the state will rape you silly if you don’t play along
    Comment by happyfeet — 12/16/2011 @ 10:59 pm

    — Then, just as so many people are fleeing New York state due to outrageous taxes, people can choose to opt-out of living in Massachusetts.

    Choosing to opt-out of living in the USA? That’s a little bit tougher, and a whole lot different than simply packing up and relocating a few hundred miles away.

    And you moved from Texas to California, is that correct?

    Icy (a53963)

  357. Yes, that was an example of ‘choosing poorly’ but maybe his job at Dunder Mifflin, pays better

    narciso (87e966)

  358. I will say I am amazed that Perry made the move he did, simply because the politics of class warfare seem pretty obvious to me. Liberals whining that he wants to reform social security while having a pension he earned… that’s a no brainer. Personally, I do not understand the scandal of a high skilled professional taking advantage of the system the way it was set up.

    The guy isn’t a millionaire and I don’t expect politicians to forgo their benefits and salaries to prove how conservative they are, Ross Perot style. I think such concepts just benefit the super wealthy who want power over low info voters.

    But hey, if it wasn’t this it would be something else. Either he’s a pervert for Gardasil or he’s evil for wanting to take lands to build a highway or he’s a serial killer because he folds his napkin the wrong way or he is a communist because the state provides the governor with a residence.

    This is how conservatives get treated by the Republican Party, and that’s why I’m not a Republican anymore, though I will vote for them if the opponent is a democrat like Obama.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  359. Romney should address his quaint -”I shit in a bucket while living in a French palace-with a maid” story before it goes all Kerry scary.
    Comment by madawaskan — 12/17/2011 @ 9:43 am

    — Uh, yeah . . . sure. Because you know that whatever Mitt did on his mission (obviously!) has the same relevance as the service record of that peacenik disgrace what wined to Congress “It was so dirty in Vietnam I soiled my pedigree!”

    Icy (a53963)

  360. Here’s an example of what really counts.

    Ideas. Policies. Romney’s direction of splitting the baby with the far hard left, and that becoming the rightmost position on the mainstream spectrum.

    How a man wants to earn a living, and managed to do so well… that’s not a political issue for me unless he did something wrong. Like Kathy Lee Giffords making money from the horrible conditions in China… or maybe someone making money advising Fannie Mae if their counsel was shown to be wrong…

    Not saving up for a pension. That’s actually something I encourage all Americans to do. Take care of yourself with hard work… not entitlements that simply cannot be relied on. Folks my age are imbeciles to count on even a penny of social security or medicare.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  361. “whined”, not “wined”

    [NOT mangled by my iPhone; just a mistake from a dork that only slept four hours last night.]

    Icy (a53963)

  362. Folks my age are imbeciles to count on even a penny of social security or medicare.

    Only if they vote Republican.

    B.Obama (e0fdd2)

  363. The ad hom troll is back!

    And there was much rejoicing.

    yaay . . .

    Icy (a53963)

  364. No, Mr President, they are imbeciles because there simply isn’t enough money for social security to work the way it’s set up. Obama’s plan is to kick that can down the road, knowing it’ll work for the time being. Sure, it’ll collapse, probably when some RINO is running the show, and low infos will blame the GOP for this even though even the RINOs note it’s not going to work the way it is set up right now.

    Unfortunately, there is a new breed of RINO who will even scream at those Republicans who note Social Security is a ponzi scheme, scaring the low infos with stories about their “entitle” ment being abolished. These are the worst, in my book. Unless they are running against true corruption like Obama’s, I wouldn’t even consider voting for them.

    That’s the kind of thing that motivates my vote. Not jealousy.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  365. Obviously my comment was directed at that ad hom troll “b obama”.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  366. Anderson’s Pooper, 360:
    Personally, I do not understand the scandal of a high skilled professional taking advantage of the system the way it was set up.
    — In the context of human society there is what’s legal (“the way it was set up”) and what is ethical. “Taking advantage”, despite being legal, might not be all that ethical.

    The guy isn’t a millionaire and I don’t expect politicians to forgo their benefits and salaries to prove how conservative they are
    “Perry reports a net worth of $2.8 million.” [Source: The Fort Worth Star-Telegram]

    But hey, if it wasn’t this it would be something else. Either he’s a pervert for Gardasil or he’s evil for wanting to take lands to build a highway or he’s a serial killer because he folds his napkin the wrong way or he is a communist because the state provides the governor with a residence.
    — I, for one, never believed those rumors about him ‘folding his napkin the wrong way’. I mean, he IS married.

    Icy (a53963)

  367. It’s my feeling that saying look at Romney is just a way to deflect attention from Perry’s bone headed move.

    Since Perry is advocating increasing the retirement age for social security in order to preserve its solvency, cutting or freezing wages and benefits for federal workers, choosing to take full retirement benefits at age 60 while continuing to work and accumulating additional retirement benefits seems at cross purposes to the solutions he is advocating for the public.

    Connecting the dots seems hard for his supporters.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  368. “– The audio is out there. Perhaps the reporter proffered the “zany” label, but Mitt is responsible for running with it.

    Comment by Icy — 12/17/2011 @ 2:38 am ”

    Icy – Yes, the audio is out there. Mitt did not characterize Newt as zany, but the left and some Republicans are running with it that way anyway.

    “They put words in Mitt’s mouth, then turned it against him to gin up controversy, thereby bringing more attention to their so-called reporting. True, Romney did say we don’t need “zany” in the White House. However, he didn’t actually attack Gingrich as “zany.” At most, he simply went along with Zeleny’s characteriztion. One can confirm that via video. It was a set-up. Big Journalism has transcribed the pertinent portion – emphasis ours.

    Jeff Zeleny: He has big ideas sometimes and it seems that, you know, he is sort of rapid fire with his, uh, uh, thought. Do you think that the American voters are getting enough of a sense of what he might do, or, is there some worry that, uh, you know, as President, should he win, that there might be some zany things coming from the Oval Office.

    Mitt Romney: Well, zany is not what we need in a president. Zany is great in a campaign. It’s great on talk radio. It’s great in the print. It makes for fun reading. But in terms of a president, we need a leader.

    Furthermore, if you continue to listen, Zeleny also twice tries to bait Romney into agreeing that Newt is “unstable.” However, Romney doesn’t take the bait, opting for “unreliable,” instead. Clearly, Zeleny was trying to manipulate the interview in a manner that would provide controversial quotes to fuel a rift between the two men. Unfortunately, since Walsh picked up Zeleny’s cue, the rest of the media–and even other Republicans–have carried the meme.

    http://bigjournalism.com/driehl/2011/12/15/times-tries-to-fabricate-news-with-zany-mitt-comment-lazy-joan-walsh-takes-bait/#more-251864

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  369. Actually, Romney took the bait, the proper answer was to deny that Newt was zany, say he has creative
    solution, an inventive mind, all that other gasterflab that he learned at Harvard Business,

    narciso (87e966)

  370. Does “zany” rhyme with “Zeleny”?

    Icy (a53963)

  371. “– I, for one, never believed those rumors about him ‘folding his napkin the wrong way’.”

    Icy – I’ve got some good napkin folding tricks, but you have to make sure you’re in the right company before you use them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  372. The furious tilt by Elites for Romany will save NH but not IA.

    Putative Paul supporters are just hiding behind apparent lunacy.

    “Tom’s a cold.”

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  373. Question for those who have a problem with Perry collecting a pension that he earned under the terms of his employment…

    I have a federal (military) retirement. Does your position on Perry mean that if I work for a federal agency (Veteran’s Administration Medical Center, military treatment facility, etc…) you would consider that “double-dipping” and somehow unethical? How about if I work for a state hospital? Or a civilian medical center?

    At what point does continuing on with a second career, in the same field or not, become unethical?

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  374. 375.Question for those who have a problem with Perry collecting a pension that he earned under the terms of his employment

    – i dont think they actualy have a problem with it – just re using to try and blunt Romney’s statements that he wont repeal Obama care and many other flipflops and in general to harass Dustin

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  375. 375. I have a close relation by marriage who was a few year’s short on her teacher’s pension at retirement. They opted, because of their relative youth, to pay up front and fulfill the defined benefit.

    America taking what the system affords is common practice.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  376. Col,

    Why wont Mitt release his tax returns?

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  377. Truth is rather glaring, but you have to stare past
    the ‘Cave’ wall;

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/the_days_are_long_but_the_years_are_short.html

    narciso (87e966)

  378. Stashiu3 – The answer would depend on whether you are running for president, but aren’t rules already established for the federal government?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  379. Stashiu3 – The issue I have with Perry is the same job, same employer, and continuing to accrue benefits the next day. What you describe are different situations.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  380. It’s exactly the same, daleyrocks. Perry’s pension was earned working for state government as a legislator, Ag Commissioner and Lt Gov. Stashiu3 earned his pension in the military. If both continued to work in politics and medicine, respectively, why condemn Perry for taking a pension he earned when none of us would criticize Stashiu3 for doing the same thing?

    Of course, there’s a double standard here because Perry is running for President. Having said that, I think Perry should have disclosed this early on.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  381. Can’t do this in private industry, it’s unethical. Leave it to the people who make the rules to ensure multiple appearances at “The Trough”.

    That’s why state and federal government jobs are so popular these days.

    Colonel Haiku (caa4c2)

  382. That and the fact that it’s virtually impossible to be fired for poor performance.

    Colonel Haiku (caa4c2)

  383. Rule of thumb for any candidates: Disclose everything *before* it’s done for you and/or sooner rather than later. This may have just been an oversight on Perry’s part, but it’s all about how it appears and giving the opponent an opening.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  384. “If both continued to work in politics and medicine, respectively, why condemn Perry for taking a pension he earned when none of us would criticize Stashiu3 for doing the same thing?”

    DRJ – I’m not condemning Perry for earning the pension, I’m questioning his tone deafness in taking it even if the rules permit it while calling for reforms of retirement benefits at the federal level and in his own state. Texas has instituted rules changes to prevent teachers from doing the very same thing Perry has just done. The optics are terrible.

    Is Stashiu3 switching jobs to another retirement plan or staying in the same retirement system? He did not make that clear. I have an issue with someone taking a retirement benefit from a pension plan, going back to work in the same job and continuing to accumulate benefits in the same pension plan. That is what Perry is doing. Stashiu3 can correct me, but I do not think that is what he described.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  385. DRJ

    Perry did disclose it – as soon as it was done – he also released his tax returns which many here use that information to attack him

    Romney has never released his and wont

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  386. Tone deafness can also include stripping companies for cash, causing numerous expensive bankruptcies, personal strife of laid off workers and then saying you know how to restart economies and create jobs while not disclosing your tax returns to sho how you did it.

    Thats real tone deafness and why he wont win

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  387. Col,

    Sure you can as long as you maintain contributions – sure you can

    There are people working at Conoco, Murphy, Walmart who are in their mid 60’s collecting Military, govt, their corporate and still work there. Now some corporations make you a consultant but these people PAID in their contributions which they can START collecting at age 62, regardless of employment status with who.

    At Amoco – we had a hard time getting rid of people in their 70’s who were collecting their pensions at age 55 and still working there.

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  388. “Perry did disclose it – as soon as it was done – he also released his tax returns which many here use that information to attack him”

    EPWJ – Can you provide a link to that disclosure and tax returns?

    What information from his tax returns are people using to attack him?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  389. Col

    If you paid into a plan for 30 years – you should delay collecting your money because you are still working?

    And as Perry has disclosed his 2000-2009 returns and the Texas Tribune and the Houston Chronicle have used it to research land sales – why can’t Romney do the same?

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  390. “If you paid into a plan for 30 years – you should delay collecting your money because you are still working?”

    EPWJ – That decision really depends on the individual and involves a number of variables if you stop and think about it. It is not an easy yes or no answer. That pension benefit is going to continue to grow for an individual on a tax deferred basis if left in the plan. The rate of return of the plan is one factor. Whether the plan is securely funded is another. Whether the individual needs the money yet another.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  391. Tone deafness can also include stripping companies for cash, causing numerous expensive bankruptcies, personal strife of laid off workers and then saying you know how to restart economies and create jobs while not disclosing your tax returns to sho how you did it.
    — Mitt’s tax returns will “sho” how he conducted business? That must be on Schedule Z (for “zany”!) the lines that read: “How many economies did you restart during the tax year?” and “Enter the number of jobs you created; subtract 100,000 for each expensive bankruptcy, then multiply by the number of laid-off workers to calculate your personal strife index”.

    Icy (94b22d)

  392. Johnson… teh gift what keeps on giving.

    Colonel Haiku (caa4c2)

  393. Great news for High Princess, Rasmussen has him in the lead in IA with, wait for it, 23 points.

    The death of Newt meant a point or two for the inevitable, irrepressible Romney.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  394. Icy

    Why hasnt Romney released his tax returns?

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  395. Is Stashiu3 switching jobs to another retirement plan or staying in the same retirement system?
    Comment by daleyrocks — 12/18/2011 @ 9:13 am

    It was a hypothetical, but does actually occur quite often. If I work at the VA and have military service, I could apply that service towards a federal retirement by “buying back” with a lump-sum contribution. In my case, it wouldn’t make sense because of several reasons. Two of the biggest are: I would no longer collect my military retirement and it would be just as if I worked at the VA the whole time (their retirement plan is not as good as the military one when you compare year-for-year). Also, the whole “bird in the hand” thing… having the income from retirement pay AND a paycheck makes more sense to me than a slightly larger paycheck and retirement in the long run.

    The point was, I retired under the rules as they stood. I could have gotten a civilian position at the same facility (indeed, the same unit) the next day without losing my retirement. Or I could work at a civilian facility and do the same. I just don’t see them as connected and cannot understand why it would be considered unethical.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)


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