Patterico's Pontifications

I don’t understand.

What’s the connection between this statement from al Qaeda and the topics you mentioned?

Sorry if I’m being particularly dense. And … again … are you sure there was no autopsy?

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 11:17 pm

Re them getting (more) upset with us — which was, yeah, totally inevitable, and to the extent we can’t control that, which is considerable, nevertheless totally worth it — this AP story adds a lot of context to reinforce how mad “they” are.

That they’re this mad doesn’t show they couldn’t have been made more mad if we’d gone out of our way to be disrespectful to the corpse (which I don’t think we did). Or that the “they” wouldn’t have been expanded by our being disrespectful.

But I don’t understand you to be arguing that we ought to have been purposefully disrespectful — just that we needed to temper what we did to accommodate our own needs. Among them were doing any tests useful in confirming ID and, yeah, doing at least a routine autopsy. If you’re right that one wasn’t done, I’ll join your outrage, Patterico. I’m just not yet persuaded that you are.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 11:37 pm

Let me know when you hear one was done.

Patterico (c218bd) — 5/6/2011 @ 11:44 pm

This AP story is from May 2 and may have been contradicted and superseded since then on many points, and its sources are certainly obscure. But it points out the following, without directly saying one way or another whether an autopsy was done on bin Laden:

When al-Qaida’s leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was killed in a U.S. airstrike in June 2006, DNA tests were performed by the FBI to positively identify the remains. The U.S. military also performed an autopsy, in part to dispel allegations in the immediate aftermath of the airstrike that the terrorist leader had been beaten or shot by U.S. soldiers while in American custody.

I’m speculating that that’s the sort of paragraph that might appear when a source has refused to confirm something directly, but the question has at least been asked.

Weak soup, I know, but further grounds to speculate that an autopsy was done, if we are just speculating anyway.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 11:48 pm

Lots of press reports also refer to “the autopsy photo,” as if there’s just one, and as if it’s from an autopsy (as opposed to just being post-mortem). They’re probably speculating too. Regardless of whether an autopsy was done, it would be very hard to persuade me that there’s only one post-mortem photo that was taken.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 11:52 pm

The more interesting thing to me about the al Qaeda message is that they don’t dispute his death.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/7/2011 @ 12:13 am

I think it would have been interesting to have interrogated the allah-loving crap out of this goat humper just cause of he knew exponentially more about terrorism than any living breathing American including our whore secretary of state or our bitch president put together

happyfeet (9bcfed) — 5/7/2011 @ 1:23 am

Beldar’s right–they sure aren’t disputing his death. So I think that we’ll see fewer “Obama Lives” statements in future. But they sure are windy buggers aren’t they?

As for happy feet in #7–didn’t your mother teach you not to say anything if you couldn’t say something nice? Lay off the pejorative stuff please.

Mike Myers (0e06a9) — 5/7/2011 @ 6:36 am

Beldar,

The more interesting thing to me about the al Qaeda message is that they don’t dispute his death.

Precisely. The predictably voluminous media reportage purporting to describe what happened are just gas.

Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (8a08b6) — 5/7/2011 @ 6:53 am

al Qaeda doesn’t know squat. They’re as much in the dark as my sister’s cat.

All we know is what little we’ve been told, and that’s been revised and contradicted so many times as to reduce most the issues surrounding the raid to matters of belief based on blind faith and the imaginations and predispositions of speculators, like me.

ropelight (688704) — 5/7/2011 @ 8:51 am

He’s dead, and that’s what matters. Hopefully Obama had them save a couple of “tissue samples” for eventual display at his presidential library.

Kevin M (298030) — 5/7/2011 @ 9:47 am

bosh our little country’s politician trash need to be named for what they are – we are a nation led by the cowardly and the whorish and the evidence is everywhere you care to look

happyfeet (9bcfed) — 5/7/2011 @ 9:49 am

Hopefully we are being lied to by the CIA and bin Laden has been renditioned to Egypt… oh wait.. well to Morocco then, and enjoying the dunk tank.

Someone made an interesting point the other day that this administration is big on drone killings, but does not seem interested in capturing and interrogating anyone.

(Isn’t an autopsy against Islamic law?)

SteveG (cc5dc9) — 5/7/2011 @ 1:53 pm

Men and heroes only should be confronted in the battlefields but at the end…

Ohhhh… REALLY…???

IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 5/7/2011 @ 6:19 pm

But I don’t understand you to be arguing that we ought to have been purposefully disrespectful

I do.

We should’ve smeared his body with pig fat and pig’s blood, wrapped it in bacon, then pig skins, and finally burnt it at less than standard cremation temps, just to make sure there were lumps left intact.

Then taken the cremated remains and spread them in a hog wallow.

>:-/

Don’t like that result? Simple, then: DON’T COMMIT TERRORISM.

IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 5/7/2011 @ 6:23 pm

Compared to this the AQ statement is a model of rationality and conciseness.
Fair warning: the half of you that won’t spill whatever you are drinking over the keyboard because you’re laughing too much will probably require a barf bag.

kishnevi (2d88a8) — 5/7/2011 @ 6:40 pm

I hate to sound ghoulish, but he could have been executed in strict accordance with Islamic tradition, like Daniel Pearl, or tortured, dismembered, burned and hung on display, like those two contractors in Iraq, with film to Al-Jazeerah.

I have little sympathy for bin Laden, but brutality and public rage against the West are features of the middle east. They don’t have soccer moms and girly liberals to placate and would have been outraged regardless of what we did. I think it’s arguably true that left to his own devices, our Attorney General would be well into preparing a murder indictment for the SEALs involved if it wasn’t ordered by Obama.

bobdog (166386) — 5/7/2011 @ 8:55 pm

Now we find out that not only did Obama make the decision to raid Pakistan, but he flew the helicopter, shot everybody in the compound, personally ripped the heart out of bin Laden with his bare hands, carried the dead body of bin Laden in one arm while he first ran then swam to the USS Carl Vinson, and finally personally prepared the body for burial at sea drawing on his boyhood experience in a Muslim country. And all of this while getting in 9 holes of golf.
Obviously, there are just too damn many folks drawing a paycheck from the federal government who are doing nothing, while Obama is doing it all. I suggest that we layoff 20% of all federal employees while doubling .. no .. quadrupling the Obama’s paycheck .. because obviously he is worth it all.

Neo (03e5c2) — 5/8/2011 @ 6:16 am

Your an joke.

DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/8/2011 @ 6:32 am

The linked al Qaeda statement points the finger at Pakistani leaders for betraying Osama bin Laden and calls for retribution, “and then he was shot bullets of betrayal and blasphemy”

Then, al Qaeda calls on the Pakistani people to rise up against the “traitors and thieves.”

We call upon our Muslim people in Pakistan where our dear Sheikh Osama was killed on their soil to rise up and revolt so they can cleanse this disgrace that was brought upon them by a handful of traitors and thieves who have sold everything to the enemies of the Muslim nation

Clearly, al Qaeda isn’t buying the cover story that the raid came as a total surprise to the Pakistanis, and neither should anyone else. The fix was in. The cover story is a pure fabrication, a fig leaf, to provide a modicum of cover for the guys who looked the other way.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 6:44 am

Osama bin Laden aspired to damage the United States not only through persistent terror attacks, but also by attempting to inflame race and class tensions in hopes of tearing down the country from the inside out, according to officials briefed on the evidence trove recovered from the al Qaeda leader’s Pakistan compound.
…
“Because there were many blacks in the U.S., he wanted to capitalize on them to further the jihadi cause,” one U.S. official told ABC News. “Al Qaeda sees the black convert community as ripe for recruiting.”

Does ABC have bin Laden’s strategy confused with a well known American’s plans of organizing for America ?

Neo (03e5c2) — 5/8/2011 @ 6:48 am

Comment by ropelight — 5/8/2011 @ 6:44 am

Well, if you know OBL is hiding out on your turf, then you should not be surprised that a bunch of Americans with guns show up and start shooting…

I’m not as skeptical of the “cover story” as you are. The fact that AQ says it doesn’t believe it is not evidence that the story is true. In fact, it’s not even evidence that AQ doesn’t believe it: rabble rousing calls against the political and military leadership is something they will do anyway.

kishnevi (38f6c3) — 5/8/2011 @ 7:19 am

Can’t help but wonder. Suppose thorough some miracle, they did take Bin Laden alive? Having seen how the present administration operates, if you were head of the intelligence agency, would you tell anyone – including the administration. Or would Osama be sitting in a hidden hospital in a prison in the Marshall Islands right now. Can DNA samples tell us if someone was alive when they were taken? Would anybody be so familiar with Osama, that any bearded tall body, wouldn’t do for a fake burial at sea? Who would know besides some SEALs and CIA agents, guys who know how to keep secrets? Wouldn’t the behavior of the administration point to your being correct about keeping it a secret? Hit him with a tranquilizer, and have his entire family as witnesses to him going do, strikes me as smart.

Sigh, yeah – i know – he’s fish food right now; Just wanted to exercise my inner Tom Clancy.

Mike Giles (d06ce7) — 5/8/2011 @ 8:19 am

#21, kishnevi, your comment isn’t clearly worded, so I can’t offer a specific responce. But, the notion that several American helicopters could land at a compound with the only 3 story structure around which overlooks a significient military facility, located in an upscale neighborhood illed and retired military and intelligence officers, at a compound with a prom

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 8:34 am

#21, kishnevi, your comment isn’t clearly worded, so I can’t offer a specific response. However, one important point is the lack of a reaction by the Pakistani armed forces. Which reminds me of the Sherlock Holmes tale of the strong horse: Silver Blaze. It was the curious incident of the dog in the night-time which gave Holmes his clue. “What incident was that, the Detective asked Holmes, “The dog did nothing in the night.” “That was the curious incident,” replied Holmes.

The notion that several American helicopters could land at a prominent compound featuring the only 3 story structure around which overlooks a significant military facility, located in an upscale neighborhood filled and retired military and intelligence officers, crash one of the helicopters then blow it up, and all the while be engaged in a firefight with automatic weapons, and no one sounds the alarm or takes a few pot shots at the invaders simply wouldn’t pass unnoticed by Sherlock Holmes. He would consider it curious indeed.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 9:09 am

Obvious inadvertent post at #23. My laptop is possessed by an evil daemon.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 9:11 am

#22, Mike, what you suggest would be exactly the goal of a competent intelligence operation: Snatch bin Laden, leave witnesses to say they saw him dead, give him a fake burial, and then squeeze him for information at some secure location. Do it in secret, put out a cover story, tell multiple versions to confuse the issues, use ‘national security’ as an excuse to avoid tough questions, and above all keep it quiet.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 9:27 am

The video of Bin Laden watching himself on TV suggests to me that he may have had some age-related mental impairment or possibly even dementia. I hope they did do an autopsy so they know whether he had any organic issues with his brain function. If so, IMO it would reduce the likelihood he was still in charge of Al Qaeda.

DRJ (fdd243) — 5/8/2011 @ 10:23 am

ropelight:

The military doesn’t act within 40 minutes.

The police in Pakistan are unlikely to be able to act within 40 minutes beyond ‘some guys in a car giving a look-see’.

Part of the US team blocked the roads leading towards the compound so that the army/police of the area couldn’t get there.

The helicopters, it is now revealed, had some sort of stealth modifications. Pakistan’s radar might have seen something but not known what it was and not given any kind of alarm.

So it’s not unsurprising that there was no Pakistani response in time.

luagha (7dfee9) — 5/8/2011 @ 10:36 am

luagha, you underestimate the Pakistanis. They aren’t quite as backward as you assume, and they’re fully capable of a rapid response in their own backyard. Their long-standing dispute with India and the constant threat of terrorist attacks tend to keep Pakistani forces alert.

And, there’s little chance an airborne assault team could have pulled off the extraction without being detected and efforts made to oppose it. Moreover, the long flight back to Afghanistan would have provided ample time for the Pakistani Air Force to intercept the helicopters and force them down.

However, if the fix was in all along, then a cover story of the sort we’ve been fed would be disseminated to cover Pakistani complicity.

So if you want to look to find reasons to believe the WH version of events, then go right ahead. I’m not buying it.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 12:33 pm

ropelight, you don’t suppose for a minute that US air assets weren’t in the air while this was going on, do you?

Obama may be wrong-headed, but he’s not completely stupid, and he is pretty risk averse. Neither are the planning guys in the military. You can bet we knew where every Pakistani plane was while our guys were in Pak airspace.

We didn’t read about it because nobody in the media has thought to ask the question.

bobdog (166386) — 5/8/2011 @ 12:42 pm

“…capture or interrogate…”

Why would they wish to do either?
They wouldn’t know what to do with him or where.
Secret CIA prisons?
No Mas!
Transfer to GITMO?
That would be a violaton of his HR’s since it is such a Hell-hole.
Interrogation by the FBI?
Well, they don’t record/tape their interviews, and since Holder is so concerned that no “alleged” terrorist have his Rights compromised,
I’m sure such “interviews” would be conducted on a strict 8/40 schedule, and I’ll bet Dollars to Do-Nuts Osama could laugh at them for 8-hours straight,
and that wouldn’t be pleasant (for the FIBS/et al) caught on tape.

AD-RtR/OS! (e7a3cf) — 5/8/2011 @ 12:51 pm

AD, if your first “they” is Obama, Holder, and Leftists in general, then you’re on-target. But if that first “they” includes guys like me, then the secret capture and subsequent enhanced interrogation of Osama bin Laden is much to be desired because it offers the possibility of rolling up parts of al Qaeda unrecorded on materials taken from his compound.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 1:30 pm

#30, bobdog, no, in fact I do assume our Navy or Air Force was flying high cover for the assault team. It’s SOP.

But, additional aircraft in the area also increases the possibility of detection and likely unwelcome response. The presence of fast movers is an ambiguous indicator anyway, they’d be overhead if the Pakistanis were in on the operation or not, just to be on the safe side and to discourage any unanticipated entanglements.

And, no again, I don’t think Obama is stupid. I think he’s playing both ends against the middle.

MSM hasn’t asked obvious questions because they don’t want to report anything but the official cover story. Which reveals the watchdogs of democracy are feeding from the hand of the tyrant.

ropelight (a48c62) — 5/8/2011 @ 1:53 pm

rope, my “they” is shorthand for the current administration, which is deathly afraid that they might get their hands dirty actually conducting an interrogation.
Their idea of timely intell, is reading about it in the morning edition of the NYT/WaPo.

AD-RtR/OS! (e7a3cf) — 5/8/2011 @ 5:16 pm

I’d be very surprised if any fighter cover was in Pakistan airspace. They are in a perpetual alert with respect to India, and that would wake them up pretty quickly.

SPQR (26be8b) — 5/8/2011 @ 5:20 pm

In response to ropelight and SPQR, I’ve seen it reported [and obviously I have no way of knowing the accuracy of the report, so you are welcome to be skeptical] that immediately before the raid, the Pakistani military was told we were going to conduct a raid, but was misdirected as to the exact location and intended target(s). So any reaction on their part would have been delayed by whatever amount of time it took for them to realize we were not targeting the location we had told them we were going for.

kishnevi (9ee373) — 5/8/2011 @ 8:06 pm

ME changes…
Watching the F-1 broadcast this morning from Turkey, it was constantly noted that this is slated to be the last F-1 Turkish GP.
With the “Arab Spring” sprouting throughout the ME, it constrasts with the reintroduction of Islamic Fundamentalism into Turkey.
A vivid reminder of where Turkey is, and how far they may back-track, is the opening of the race, where the drivers bring their cars to the starting grid with each drivers’ position marked by a “flag girl” (usually models hired by the promoter) holding a banner of the drivers name and number, and attired in something to catch the photogs fancy – and not something that would be approved by the local Imam.
The “flag girls” in Turkey were dressed in very Western short-shorts and tops, with lots of skin (legs and arms) showing, something one would not expect – or sees – in a more fundie Ismalic country, and quite a bit more “racy” than the “flag-girls'” attire at Bahrain and Abu Dhabi, or even Malaysia.
There won’t be this dissounance in the future, there just won’t be a race, which is unfortunate as the Istanbul track is one of the good ones.

AD-RtR/OS! (e7a3cf) — 5/8/2011 @ 8:40 pm

5/6/2011

Good Thing We Dumped That Body Right Away . . .

38 Responses to “Good Thing We Dumped That Body Right Away . . .”

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