Patterico's Pontifications

1/17/2011

Martin Luther King: “Why Jesus Called a Wise Man a Fool” (Bumped)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 2:19 pm



[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]

Update: Bumped, because after all, it is his holiday. See below for new posts.

Yes, this is my Martin Luther King day tribute and we could all cite from his most famous speech, “I Have a Dream,” but I figured I would pick something a little more obscure.  This is a sermon (audio only) delivered where he confessed to a moment of weakness.

We have admitted Martin Luther King, Jr. into the pantheon of great Americans.  And while he deserves that treatment, the risk we run is that we forget that he was not some plaster saint, but a man of flesh and blood, with a wife and children he loved and real human fears for himself and that family.  So in this speech he tells us how important faith was to him in finding his courage.  Indeed he asserts that Jesus spoke to him in a moment of crisis (he is even clearer on this point at other times in discussing this incident).  I am always skeptical of any person who claims Jesus had spoken to them. But listening to that for the first time well over ten years ago, my thought was this: if Jesus had spoken to anyone in the last one hundred years or so…  Dr. King would be on the short list, right?

But that risks again forgetting the flesh and blood human being that was there.  Reverend King was in a very dangerous business—civil rights, particularly those of African Americans.  It wasn’t really a surprise when he was shot. He knew that he stood a very real chance of being murdered and that he was exposing his family to the same danger.  Let’s not forget that these animals were low enough to murder four little girls as they attended Sunday school.  In this sense it is particularly appropriate for Bono to compare Dr. King to Jesus.  Dr. King was not just a victim of that hate, but a martyr in the truest sense of the word. And it was his humanity, captured in this recording, that made it so profound.

Finally, let me once again provide a recommendation to you.  If you have not enjoyed The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy.  I most fervently recommend the audio version (linked).  Now, I don’t want you to think it is more than it is.  It is read very well by LeVar Burton, with occasional audio clips from Dr. King himself.  So most of your time you are not going to hear Dr. King’s voice. And it is not a true autobiography, so much as a group of autobiographical writings stitched together by editor Clayborne Carson.  Still, I listened to that one summer when driving home from law school and it felt like Dr. King was sitting in the car with me, having a conversation.  It was powerful.

But also it is a road hazard, given that you are almost guaranteed to be moved to tears at least once.

Update: This is an oldie but goodie from Basil, the “Robin” to Frank J. Fleming’s “Batman” over at IMAO from 2008.  A young man tells us that “[t]oday is a national holiday here in the U.S. It’s a day where we celebrate the birthday of a great American, born and raised in the south, who lived and died for what he believed…”  Things go awry from there, but besides being funny, Basil is making a really good point about how we memorialize Dr. King.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

95 Responses to “Martin Luther King: “Why Jesus Called a Wise Man a Fool” (Bumped)”

  1. Inspirational. Thank you.

    Earl T (397249)

  2. Comment under your own name, Yelverton.

    JD (109425)

  3. “We have admitted Martin Luther King, Jr. into the pantheon of great Americans.”

    He was no great American, IMO. He was anti-American, and made no bones about it, laughably calling the United States government “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today” in his 1967 speech against the Vietnam War.

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html

    He was also a Christian minister who cheated on wis wife. That ain’t exactly what I call great. As a matter of fact, that’s about as low as it gets.

    The only things he had going for him was that he had a legitimate personal grievance (namely that people with dark skin were getting treated like crap) and he advocated and practiced dealing with that grievance through non-violent methods.

    Bitching about being personally mistreated (which is essentially what King was all about) doesn’t make one great. Anyone can do that.

    What makes one great is when you rise above your personal situation, ignore unfairness directed against you, and make a sacrifice for the greater good.

    You want to talk about a great American, talk about Senator Dan Inouye over there in Hawaii. Inouye, a Japanese-American, grew up in a place where Japanese-Americans weren’t exactly treated fairly, but, during WWII he ignored all that, signed up in the United States Army, was badly wounded fighting against the Germans (lost an arm), and won a DSC, which was later upgraded to a Medal of Honor. He didn’t protest against WWII, he didn’t slag off the United States government. He went over to Italy and France and fought against our enemies.

    Senator Dan might be a liberal Democrat, but he’s also 50 times the man Martin Luther King was, and a million times greater as an American.

    You want to make a holiday honoring Senator Dan, I’m all for it. King? Forget about it. I don’t celebrate his birthday.

    Never have. Never will.

    Jesse Helms had it right (in this case)…King doesn’t deserve it.

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  4. “It wasn’t really a surprise when he was shot. He knew that he stood a very real chance of being murdered and that he was exposing his family to the same danger.”

    Let’s not forget what he was doing when he was shot: Organizing a public sector union.

    NoYouDidnt (c4caa8)

  5. And that makes on f@cking bit of difference, why?

    JD (109425)

  6. Don’t ya just hate people that whitewash MLK with this pantheon and Jesus talk?

    NoYouDidnt (ffcb4e)

  7. More hatred of the looney left polluting public discourse.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  8. I just hate douchebags.

    JD (6e25b4)

  9. Doofus, many articles have appeared detailing the time when J. Edgar Hoover told King he had the goods on his extramarital affairs (he left a cassette tape under his door detailing his nocturnal activities), but King still went ahead with his scheduled speeches and marches that evening, that week and for many months later, until he was assassinated. That incident pretty much sums up what King was – a courageous leader willing to put his life on the line for his cause, but still as human as the rest of us.

    Dmac (498ece)

  10. That was for Head Douche, btw.

    Dmac (498ece)

  11. guys let’s let the douche nozzle have his fun, inserting partisanship into all of this.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  12. God forbid someone think of MLK as someone with a worthwhile policy viewpoint!

    NoYouDidnt (4a62f5)

  13. I wrote a few paragraphs about why I think King was way overrated, and doesn’t deserve to be treated as a national hero, but it went bye-bye when I hit submit (off to moderation or something), and I can’t be arsed to write it again (because King aion’t worth wasting a whole lot of time on), so I’m just going to say it…King isn’t a national hero, and doesn’t deserve a holiday.

    My opinion, of course.

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  14. Oh no you di’nt was a nozzle in its very first comment, and has since endeavored to prove it further.

    JD (0d2ffc)

  15. As we celebrate MLK day, it’s good to note that his faith gave him courage and the strength of his convictions in the face of death threats and violence. He perservered and died a martyr.

    It is also interesting to note the contradiction that the Bible promoted slavery (Leviticus 25:44, 1 Peter 2:18, Exodus 21:7-8,20, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5, Titus 2:9, Collosians 3:22, 1 Corinthians 7:21), but that, as with many of the contradictions in both doctrine and historical fact are explained away by the Christian apologists for the bigger picture, which we see in the faith of MLK.

    Earl T (8bb588)

  16. As we celebrate MLK day, it’s good to note that his faith gave him courage and the strength of his convictions in the face of death threats and violence. He persevered and died a martyr.

    It is also interesting to note the contradiction that the Bible promoted slavery (Leviticus 25:44, 1 Peter 2:18, Exodus 21:7-8,20, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5, Titus 2:9, Collosians 3:22, 1 Corinthians 7:21), but that, as with many of the contradictions in both doctrine and historical fact are explained away by the Christian apologists for the bigger picture, which we see in the faith of MLK.

    Earl T (8bb588)

  17. NYD

    I think he has a worthy viewpoint on public sector unions. And i disagree with him completely. But it is idiotic to pretend that MLK was shot over that.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  18. Dave

    i couldn’t find your comments in the filters… not sure what to tell you.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  19. Having courage does not make one perfect. Having clear vision on one thing doesn’t mean one sees all things clearly.

    My limited (i.e., wasn’t old enough to say I really lived through it) understanding is that he was for equal rights for all, equal opportunity for all, to be judged by character not color. I think he would have disliked affirmative action that way it developed.

    Had Medgar Evers lived longer perhaps he would have been more of the face of Civil Rights. Malcolm X also knew, perhaps even moreso, that he was living on borrowed time- in his case at the hands of the corruption he had grown up in and then stood against.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  20. #15

    I’ve had that happen a couple of times before, hit submit and off goes your post to God knows where.

    No big deal. It’s not like it’s a worldender. The fact of the matter is is that despite our little Free Speech cult in this country, most speech is just a bunch of blather, and if I never said another word…it wouldn’t make a lick of difference to the world.

    But, anyway, I was arguing that Dan Inouye, the liberal Democrat Senator from Hawaii, is a far better man and an infinitely better American than Martin Luther King Jr. was, and that if it was up me I’d give him a National Holiday and phooey on King…but, like I said, I can’t arsed to go rewrite it and explain my reasoning.

    Too lazy.

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  21. “i couldn’t find your comments in the filters… not sure what to tell you.”

    Me neither, but I just had the same thing happen again on this thread…let’s see if this one goes through…

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  22. Hmmm…that worked o.k., maybe God is telling me I shouldn’t say anything negative about MLK or something?

    I’ll have to think about that one.

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  23. Dave

    found ’em and despite DEEP disagreement, restored.

    apparently the spam filter thought you were spamming.

    i would suggest avoiding links for a while. or give me a heads up when a comment disappears.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  24. Dave,
    I’ve made it a habit to first do a R click “copy” before I submit something. I’ve had the experience, too, and I type so slow I don’t want to have to do it again. But, it is true that the universe would likely 😉 go on if my comment was lost.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  25. Dave

    And a few responses to the comment i saved.

    > He was anti-American

    No, he wanted America to live up to its ideals, as he saw them. Anyone who listens to his I have a dream speech gets that.

    > He was also a Christian minister who cheated on wis wife.

    I don’t want to minimize it, but you can be great and flawed, and even do fairly despicable things.

    I mean, would you call Thomas Jefferson a great American?

    > Bitching about being personally mistreated (which is essentially what King was all about) doesn’t make one great. Anyone can do that.

    Advocating for justice does not make one great? Seriously, wtf?

    > What makes one great is when you rise above your personal situation, ignore unfairness directed against you, and make a sacrifice for the greater good.

    You mean like becoming a civil rights leader and being shot by a racist? Like that?

    > He went over to Italy and France and fought against our enemies.

    And why is it good to fight against the Germans and the Italians. Because they are oppressing others. Okay. So why is it suddenly not great to fight the oppression your own people face?

    > Jesse Helms had it right

    Jesse helms was an unreconstructed racist. I wouldn’t associate myself with him if I was you.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  26. I’m with Dave Surls. King the symbol may be worth a holiday, but King the person was a bad man. As Dave points out, he was an enemy of the USA, and he openly supported the communists in Vietnam in their attempt to extend their tyranny to the south. He shares in the responsibility for the US defeat and what followed, and to me that outweighs any good he may have done in his life.

    His adultery also bears heavily with me. How is it that so many otherwise moral people treat it as if it were some peccadillo? Had it been known at the time, would his contemporaries not have despised him? Would he not have been drummed out of the movement? What has happened to us that we are able to hold up an adulterer as a paragon of virtue, whose life deserves a holiday to celebrate it?

    Isn’t it ironic that King is constantly cited for the proposition that skin colour shouldn’t matter, and yet had he been white (with exactly the same biography) there would be no talk of a holiday for him?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  27. The is no topic that does not bring out Yelverton’s hatred.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  28. On the increasing (and I think distressing) tolerance for adultery, I note that in 2008, for the first time ever, the GOP knowingly nominated an adulterer for the presidency. The Ds have not yet done so — in 2006 Clinton and his supporters were still denying his adultery, and the party could be forgiven for believing him. (Neither Grover Cleveland, nor the woman for whose child he assumed responsibility, were married.)

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  29. milhouse

    let me ask you this.

    was thomas jefferson a great american?

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  30. was thomas jefferson a great american?

    I think so, yes. I’m not aware of all his flaws, but the ones I do know about are minor.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  31. MLK was a great man — a man who could put good sentences together.

    These days it is fascinating how the government austerity people span the globe of politics. The Republicans are idiots because they have no clue how to implement smaller government. They are stupid. The weekly tune we hear on Sunday morning talk shows is how Republicans have excellent reasons for being incompetent and spending more — spending us all into oblivion.

    The Republican stupidity is entertainment.

    Wesson (dc314c)

  32. “I mean, would you call Thomas Jefferson a great American?”

    No, I wouldn’t.

    Dave Surls (c49378)

  33. Wesson seems stuck on austerity.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  34. Dave

    okay, what about g. washington, james madison? do any of them count as great in your book?

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  35. Milhouse

    > I think so, yes. I’m not aware of all his flaws, but the ones I do know about are minor.

    You call holding human being in slavery a minor flaw?

    Kind of makes cheating on your wife pale in comparison, right?

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  36. MLK was a great man

    Not to nitpick you specifically, Wesson, because I see a lot of people making this mistake…

    While I’m sure the guy’s dad was great an all, today is in honor of Martin Luther King Jr.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  37. Aaron, I seem to have a comment in moderation for reasons I can’t figure out…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  38. “Wesson seems stuck on austerity.”

    JD – I thought he was stuck on one of Roman Polanski’s rejects.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  39. “Don’t know why my comments are disappearing, so I’ll try again.”

    Yelverton – It might be because the Earl T. screen name is not fooling anyone.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  40. “Advocating for justice does not make one great? Seriously, wtf?”

    Of course, it doesn’t Aaron. Anyone can advocate for justice, and it ain’t the least bit hard to rail against injustice when you’re the one that’s getting screwed. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn’t make you a hero.

    When I was a wee lad in high school, I was advocating the end of Jim Crow, which was then in its very last throes, at the top of my lungs, even though, unlike King, I had nothing personal at stake.

    I was also screaming bloody murder, because, in those days (no longer an issue, but it was then) the cops and other authorities were constantly hassling longhaired hippies, like myself, the same way the powers that be were hassling black people, often unjustly, I might add.

    Doesn’t make me great, especially if I’m bitching and moaning on my own behalf.

    Bitching doesn’t make you great. Anybody can do that.

    What does makes you great is when you have good reason to bitch, but you swallow it, because there is more at stake than just your personal complaints against that big old nasty establishment.

    Dan Inouye is a great, great man, one of my heroes, even if he is a Democrat (and I’m an egocentric bastard, so I don’t have a whole lot of heroes), because that’s what he did, and he paid a serious price for it…and, that really isn’t what Martin Luther King did.

    Sorry, but King is no hero of mine…and he ain’t a pimple on Dan Inouye’s ass. I think Inouye is by far the greater man. He could have made a big issue about how unfairly Japanese-Americans were being treated in the 1940s, he could have spoken at protests against the war, screamed about American violence against the poor little Japanese, refused to serve in the military because Japanese-Americans were getting screwed by the system (a lot of guys did, btw)…only he didn’t. He ignored the way America was treating him, sucked it up…and then went over and beat the tar out of the Germans. That’s what Senator Dan did.

    It’s my opinion only, of course, and you’re more than welcome to yours, but I don’t have a whole lot of respect for King as an American hero…and I don’t celebrate his birthday.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  41. Daley – it is going to play the “I do not know what you are talking about” game, denying his own existence. He is pathetic. Get a life, or at least some help, William Yelverton, professor of Sockpuppetry @ MTSU.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  42. This post had to be like catnip to Yelverton. He usually goes way off the rails when he starts making up new fake names.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  43. “but King the person was a bad man.”

    I don’t think he was a bad man, just not a great man.

    He was like a lot of people, mainly out for himself. That’s why he screwed around on his wife, even though he was a Christian minister for chrissake, and that’s why his whole life was about fighting against injustice against blacks…on account of he was black and all.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  44. Great, another topic filled with Yelverton’s bigotry.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  45. “Daley – it is going to play the “I do not know what you are talking about” game”

    JD – By insulting Christianity it is merely insulting Rev. MLK, not that it cares.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  46. Why do you people keep talking about his dad?

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  47. Aaron, first of all the Creator seems to have no problem with slavery, and every human society in history until the late 18th century saw it as perfectly natural and just. There were no abolitionists in Africa until some came there from Europe and America. The slaves themselves had no notion that there was something wrong with the slavery, until abolitionist preachers taught them that belief; they didn’t want to be slaves, but they had no problem with the institution, and they dreamed of becoming free and rich and owning some slaves of their own. So I don’t see why any person at that time should have had a moral problem with holding slaves.

    More to the point, however, Jefferson himself disagreed with all the above and did have a problem with slavery; but what could he do? He tried working for abolition and saw that it had no chance of success in his lifetime, so rather than beat his head against a wall he turned his efforts to more fruitful struggles, leaving this one for the next generation to try again. We have his own word that the law prevented him from freeing his slaves; I’m not sure which law he’s talking about there, but I assume he means his debts. Of course a debtor can’t give away valuable assets on a whim. Selling them would, of course, be exactly the wrong thing to do. So what was left, but to play the hand he was dealt?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  48. “okay, what about g. washington, james madison? do any of them count as great in your book?”

    Washington for sure. Greatest American of all time, and a great man too. If we only have one holiday for one man, it ought to be for George Washington, not some dopey civil rights activist who once called the United States government “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today”.

    King was a bit of an ass, really, and not even a pro-American ass!

    IMO, Washington is thousands of times greater than King.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  49. Washington for sure. Greatest American of all time, and a great man too.

    So slavery gets a pass, but adultery doesn’t?

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  50. And where, Dave, do you get the idea that MLK Jr was not pro-American?

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  51. Scott, the idea that adultery is wrong comes from God Himself, and has been well-known to people for the past 5000 years or so. The idea that slavery is wrong comes from a few English Christians not very long before Washington’s and Jefferson’s day, and was still a fringe belief in their day.

    And MLK Jr was actively supporting the communist forces who were shooting at USA troops; that’s not exactly pro-American, is it?

    For that matter, I can turn your own words on you: “So communism gets a pass but racism doesn’t?” His having fought racism is more significant than his having supported communism?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  52. The idea that slavery is wrong comes from a few English Christians not very long before Washington’s and Jefferson’s day, and was still a fringe belief in their day.

    Well God forbid we let people run with fringe ideas…

    That whole representative government thing would never take off anyways…

    And you’re confusing MLK Jr with Malcolm X. MLK Jr. didn’t support killing for any reason but the direct defense of your family.

    I also find it unlikely that he would, as a man of the cloth, support any movement that mad religion basically illegal.

    Again, do you have actual proof that he was un-American, or supported those killing our troops. For the record, my father – an actual Vietnam veteran who was in country, unlike that cowardly f**k VietnameEraVet – thinks the world of MLK Jr, and that he was a national treasure.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  53. earl

    your comments are not disappearing. but your reposts will.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  54. Actually, I didn’t find Earl’s post to be all that “anti-MLK Jr”…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  55. Washington was essentially born a slaveowner and then actually tried to do something about getting rid of slavery once he got older, and decided it was wrong (George also was in a tough spot, personally, it was costing him money to take care of people that he couldn’t profit off, but at the same time he was too decent to just cut them loose). You can read about it, and make up your own mind…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery

    King wasn’t born an adulterer, with a ready-made harem, and he wasn’t born a breaker of one of God’s Ten Commandments, he went out and did that all by himself.

    Sorry…but, (IMO, of course) Washington was much the greater man, and infinitely the greater American.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  56. Millhouse

    > Aaron, first of all the Creator seems to have no problem with slavery

    You mean aside from that whole exodus, thing…

    > and every human society in history until the late 18th century saw it as perfectly natural and just.

    Jefferson himself said it was not. But didn’t have the strength of character to end it in his household.

    > The slaves themselves had no notion that there was something wrong with the slavery

    Um, based on what?

    > We have his own word that the law prevented him from freeing his slaves;

    Except Washington did in fact free his.

    Dave

    I agree with much of your comments. Including that Washington should have his own day. But the fact is keeping a person in bondage is a much more serious sin than cheating on your wife.

    of course as noted above, eventually washington freed his slaves, but that only means at some point he stopped sinning.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  57. Anyway, I see that my original post comparing King with Inouye, with a link to King’s not exactly pro-American 1967 speech against the war in Vietnam, is now on the thread, at post #3. You can read it and think about it, if you want.

    Or not, it’s not that big of a deal what I think about things.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  58. Why are my posts disappearing. If you know the Bible, slavery goes well beyond the old Testament and is found throughout the new Testament. If you have an objection, why don’t you state it and leave it up for discussion. I don’t understand. Slavery in the new Testament is undeniable and is not an issue with translation. The Greek word doulos means “slave” and that is part of the scriptures.

    It is interesting to note the contradiction that the Bible promoted slavery and instructs on how slaves should act: (Leviticus 25:44, 1 Peter 2:18, Exodus 21:7-8,20, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5, Titus 2:9, Collosians 3:22, 1 Corinthians 7:21), but that, as with many of the contradictions in both doctrine and historical fact are explained away by the Christian apologists for the bigger picture, which we see in the faith of MLK.

    Earl T (e51a36)

  59. The right wing reaction to MLK is always amusing. Beck knows how to work it: co-opt. Maybe it’s easy for him, and he can quickly gloss over inconvenient facts. But some can’t help themselves, and thus we get the debbie downers like Surls.

    NoYouDidnt (8222e7)

  60. NoYouDidnt – The left wing reaction to the right wing reaction to MLK is always amusing.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  61. If I’m not mistaken, Washington essentially could have had the Kingship had he wanted, right? To be in a position like that and stay true to your principles I think is a very big thing (Cincinatus for the Romans).

    I’m guessing, and will be happy to be educated otherwise, that as MLK Jr. grew in reputation for his civil rights work, others wanted to either hop on to his bandwagon, or get him to hop on theirs. I’m inclined to think, though I have zero documented evidence one way or another, that getting pulled into the anti-Vietnam movement was something that happened in the swirl of activity rather than a foundational belief.

    King’s legacy is one of a fallible man who was willing to die for a just cause, not as an absolute paragon of virtue. We have many who are good examples of some things, very few whose lives are to be emulated in their totality.

    The New Testament teachings do not explicitly forbid slavery, which was an established part of society in the 1st Century, but do provide a morality which when followed necessitates the abolition of slavery. The OT, as in other situations, places a limit on what society could do, rather than establish de novo what should be done. For example, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” was an improvement over escalating retribution and vengeance, I believe. (But if I understand correctly, the attack on religious faith is not coming from a source that can be reasoned with).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  62. Happy King day all. Thought Patterico readers would find this link interesting. Found it via one of my favorite poker bloggers:

    The Green Book: the guide that helped black motorists avoid Jim Crow

    qdpsteve (f1c59f)

  63. We are about to witness yet another Moronic Convergence with William Yelverton and one of his new playtoys. Hilarity ensues.

    JD (d56362)

  64. _____________________________________________

    We have admitted Martin Luther King, Jr. into the pantheon of great Americans.

    Symbolically and technically he’s gone beyond that pantheon. That’s because no other individual American, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln in particular, has a holiday named solely in his honor.

    The birthdays of Washington and Lincoln were lumped together several years ago and converted into a generic day of respect known as “Presidents’ Day.” IOW, that occasion apparently can include the honoring of Jimah Carter and Bubba Clinton right along with Washington and Lincoln.

    Oh, well, in the wise words of the former close adviser and spiritual leader of the current president: “Goddamn America!”

    Mark (411533)

  65. Noyou

    btw, do you know which party MLK belonged to? the name starts with an R and rhymes with epublican.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  66. __________________________________________

    He knew that he stood a very real chance of being murdered and that he was exposing his family to the same danger.

    Symbolic of a great weakness (referring to loony leftism) that undermines the community Martin Luther King was most closely aligned with, (ie black America), is his family foolishly and naively falling for the BS that James Earl Ray foisted on them. Namely, that he — a confirmed ultra-right racist — wasn’t guilty of murdering MLK. That the assassin (or assassins) were actually shadowy figures working for the US government, or whatever.

    When an absurd lack of common sense is pervasive in any community, it’s similar to a house whose foundation is tottering from a case of severe dry rot and termites.

    Mark (411533)

  67. “…we get the debbie downers like Surls.”

    LOL.

    I had to go look that one up, not being a television watcher. Sounds like a legitimate observation to me.

    That’s pretty much what I’m doing all right.

    I think the MLK worship thing is way overblown, so I’m raining on parades a tad.

    No point in pretending otherwise.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  68. “btw, do you know which party MLK belonged to? the name starts with an R and rhymes with epublican.”

    Now that’s actual partisanship. But this should be touted too. Can you imagine a time when we used to have anti-war, pro-income distribution, pro affirmative action, pro-public sector union republicans that organized a “poor people’s campaign” for economic righs, including government jobs, less money for war, and more against poverty?

    And people say that democrats have changed since the 60s.

    NoYouDidnt (6ca10f)

  69. @63

    Not only a black Republicam, but he apparently believed that character should trump skin color. Can you imagine the slurs the Left would direct towards him today?

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  70. noyou

    mlk was not against all war, just vietnam.

    i have never heard him be in favor of income distribution.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  71. You mean aside from that whole exodus, thing…

    Aaron, there is not a word anywhere in Exodus disapproving of slavery. On the contrary, in several places it explicitly accepts it.

    Jefferson himself said it was not.

    Jefferson did indeed disapprove of slavery, and would have abolished it had he been able; that made him an adherent of what in his day was still a fringe belief. Nobody else had any obligation to agree with him.

    Um, based on what?

    I know that the slaves had no notion that there was anything wrong with slavery, because there was nobody in Africa from whom they could have learned such a radical idea. Every single society in Africa approved of slavery.

    Except Washington did in fact free his.

    And therefore? We have it in Jefferson’s own writing that the law prevented him from freeing his slaves.

    the fact is keeping a person in bondage is a much more serious sin than cheating on your wife.

    Really? You know for a fact what is a sin? How do you know this, if not from God’s word? The very same Ten Commandments which forbid adultery accept slavery. You have a better source than that? I’m not saying that moral development must necessarily be frozen at 1311 BCE; I am saying that when we invent moral principles ourselves we can never be sure we’re right, and we can never be sure that God agrees. We may call slavery wrong, because so it seems to us; but how can we call it a sin without the sanction of Scripture?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  72. Scott, was King or was he not campaigning for the USA to abandon the Vietnamese to communist tyranny? How is that not support for the communists?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  73. AW – those trolls don’t care about actual discussion. They like to claim you are being partisan while being exactly that themselves. They like to call for civility, while being aggressively uncivil. They are dicks.

    JD (0d2ffc)

  74. “i have never heard him be in favor of income distribution.”

    It’s MLK day. Fire up some google and learn about the guy that you think deserves to be in the “pantheon of great Americans.”

    “They like to claim you are being partisan while being exactly that themselves”

    Like by actually bringing political party labels into things. Tsk tsk tsk.

    NoYouDidnt (3ac9fb)

  75. Yes we know of the ‘Poor People’s campaign, and the antiwar project, that he embarked likely on the recommendation of Stanley Levison, who succeeded Bayard Rustin, as one of his key advisors

    narciso (6075d0)

  76. “Including that Washington should have his own day.”

    Just to clarify. Washington’s Birthday is still technically a federal holiday, but it’s usually called President’s day, because they got rid of Lincoln’s Birthday when MLK’s Birthday was made a holiday, and they didn’t want to did old Abe too much.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  77. “dis[respect] old Abe” I meant to say.

    Fingers getting old and clumsy.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  78. What’s really nuts is that we have a day for Columbus.

    What the hell? He twarn’t even an American, and unless you’re the son of God, or a bona fide American, I don’t think you ought to get a Federal holiday named after you.

    Bet American Indians would agree with me on that one, although Genoese-Americans might give me some static.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  79. AW – Do you know who this one is yet?

    JD (d4bbf1)

  80. Scott, was King or was he not campaigning for the USA to abandon the Vietnamese to communist tyranny? How is that not support for the communists?

    He was against a war that did not directly effect the US – he would have supported WWII, for example.

    I find that entirely in keeping with his stance on non-violence, and not in any way “anti-American”.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  81. Millhouse

    > Aaron, there is not a word anywhere in Exodus disapproving of slavery.

    Sure, besides THE WHOLE THING.

    > Nobody else had any obligation to agree with him

    I’m not talking about anyone else’s conduct when evaluating him. I am talking about him. I am talking about his decision to have, keep, and force slaves to work on his plantation and his inability to free them.

    > I know that the slaves had no notion that there was anything wrong with slavery, because there was nobody in Africa from whom they could have learned such a radical idea.

    How about the school of life?

    > Every single society in Africa approved of slavery.

    You know that all levels of their society agreed? I doubt it.

    > And therefore?

    And therefore your claim it was illegal was dubious at best.

    > Really? You know for a fact what is a sin?

    I consider this to be a self-evident truth.

    Noyou

    > It’s MLK day. Fire up some google

    Don’t trust everything you read on the internet. That’s how WWI got started.

    Martin Luther King actually spoke out against communism. There is that.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  82. “He was against a war that did not directly effect the US – he would have supported WWII, for example.”

    I doubt it.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  83. “God didn’t call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war as the war in Vietnam. And we are criminals in that war. We’ve committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world…”–MLK

    http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/multimediaentry/doc_the_drum_major_instinct/

    Sermon he gave in Atlanta in 1968.

    I don’t think old Martin thought too much of America, actually.

    He was basically a boilerplate lefty. Would have fit right in with Code Pink in the 21st Century.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  84. “Don’t trust everything you read on the internet. That’s how WWI got started.”

    I don’t think they had the internet in those Aaron!

    😉

    Dave Surls (302550)

  85. those days, I meant.

    Dave Surls (302550)

  86. Oh they didn’t, huh?

    Where did you hear that, the internet?

    The prosecution rests.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  87. well, let me quote a great man for you.

    “The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.” – Abraham Lincoln

    http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2011/01/profund-thought.html

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  88. This is one of the more surreal threads yet – a few folks sound like one of my friend’s previous wives, one he married back in the 80’s when he lived in Atlanta. I visited once and had a few drinks with her and some of her friends – when they felt comfortable enough, they started in on how none of them celebrated Lincoln’s birthday, and that MLK was a commie and things were sure better back when “those people had to walk on the other side of the street.” King gets a pass on any and all of his political activities, since blacks were treated like non – persons until the Civil Rights Act was passed, and not much better until another two decades later. So to all who are convinced how un – American he was, I can only say walk a mile in his shoes and until you can do so, put a giant fork in it. Two of my friends are in their early 60’s, and they grew up when things were absolutely horrendous for any and all black people – I’ve always told them that while we discuss just about anything at this point, we both know that I’ll never have a farking clue what it was like for them, and I never will.

    Dmac (498ece)

  89. #84

    Reminds me of the women’s libbers trying to tell me how men could never understand how rough women have it…at the same time half my buds were dodging bullets at Khe Sanh, or spendng their days crawling through rice paddies in the Mekong Delta, back in the day.

    Dave Surls (07a487)

  90. One of those friends served at a firebase in ’67, and I never act like I have any idea what that was like.

    Dmac (498ece)

  91. _________________________________________

    Two of my friends are in their early 60′s, and they grew up when things were absolutely horrendous for any and all black people

    It’s sad how society has gone from the extreme of the past to the extreme of today. The situation of over 40 to 50 years ago, when petty, bigoted sentiment — mainly rooted in ultra-rightism — was tolerated in too many segments of America. And now the extreme of today — influenced by a lot of phony, sloppy leftism — in which someone along the lines of a Jesse Jackson will acknowledge a feeling of relief after realizing the guy strolling by him on a city sidewalk is white, not black.

    We’ve gone from the extreme of two people — one white, one non-white (black in particular) — competing for the same job, in which the white applicant, unless the person he or she was competing against was extremely talented, extremely qualified — automatically got the nod of approval. To the extreme of today, represented by the super sketchy guy now in the White House.

    Mark (411533)

  92. We should not all forget what he was doing when he got shot. It was so surprising and everyone was like in shock and had taken aback.

    Nicole Smith (f175d1)

  93. If I lived MLK’s life, I’d be pretty pessimistic about our country, too. Imagine everyone you’re related to being treated like an inferior person. MLK remains a great republican. He’s not the only Republican who was isolationist. It’s OK because war is a damn serious thing.

    MLK’s philosophy of judging a man by his character, not his skin, and equal justice before the law, is bedrock conservatism.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  94. I just responded to spam. Crap.

    Dustin (c16eca)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1237 secs.