The Hate They Are Not Talking About
[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]
Okay, we are in for another long one, so buckle up. What I want to talk about is what many on the left have been doing all week. But you have to start with history, the story of another American tragedy.
On September 15, 1963, a bomb went off in the 16th St. Baptist Church, in Birmingham, Alabama. It killed four little girls as they attended Sunday school. This video from the History Channel provides a nice backgrounder:
People had died before at the hands of the Klan, but that unique combination of young children and dying in the house of God shocked this nation like few other incidents. But God has a way of wringing good out of evil. Those are not my words, but the words that Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke when standing next to the graves of three of those girls and a boy killed during the unrest that followed. The eulogy he delivered was in truth a classic funeral oration, which at times clearly hearkened back to Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address. Only where Lincoln suggested that we dedicate ourselves to fighting for the cause those soldiers had died for, Dr. King suggested that we should fight against the thing that killed those little girls. He said, in pertinent part:
These children—unoffending, innocent, and beautiful—were the victims of one of the most vicious and tragic crimes ever perpetrated against humanity. Yet they died nobly. They are the martyred heroines of a holy crusade for freedom and human dignity.
And so this afternoon in a real sense they have something to say to each of us in their death. They have something to say to every minister of the gospel who has remained silent behind the safe security of stained-glass windows. They have something to say to every politician [Audience:] (Yeah) who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism. They have something to say to a federal government that has compromised with the undemocratic practices of southern Dixiecrats (Yeah) and the blatant hypocrisy of right-wing northern Republicans. (Speak) They have something to say to every Negro (Yeah) who has passively accepted the evil system of segregation and who has stood on the sidelines in a mighty struggle for justice. They say to each of us, black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. (Mmm) They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American dream.
And so my friends, they did not die in vain. (Yeah) God still has a way of wringing good out of evil. (Oh yes) And history has proven over and over again that unmerited suffering is redemptive. The innocent blood of these little girls may well serve as a redemptive force (Yeah) that will bring new light to this dark city. (Yeah. Mmm) The holy Scripture says, “A little child shall lead them.” (Well) The death of these little children may lead our whole Southland (Well) from the low road of man’s inhumanity to man to the high road of peace and brotherhood. (Yeah) These tragic deaths may lead our nation to substitute an aristocracy of character for an aristocracy of color. The spilled blood of these innocent girls may cause the whole citizenry of Birmingham (Yeah) to transform the negative extremes of a dark past into the positive extremes of a bright future. (Mmm) Indeed, this tragic event may cause the white South to come to terms with its conscience. (Yeah)
And so I stand here to say this afternoon to all assembled here that in spite of the darkness of this hour, (Well) we must not despair. (Well) We must not become bitter, (Yeah. That’s right) nor must we harbor the desire to retaliate with violence. (Mmm) No, we must not lose faith in our white brothers. (Yeah) Somehow we must believe that the most misguided among them can learn to respect the dignity and the worth of all human personality.
One can never be sure what exactly helped awaken our nation’s conscience on this issue. But it cannot be denied that this incident and Dr. King’s success in shaping it into an indictment of racism generally was a significant factor. In contrast with Dr. King’s lofty rhetoric only months before with his “I Have a Dream” speech, he gave us a glimpse of what love could give us. This speech showed us where hate led us.
This is what the left has been trying to do all week. This is the template that animates their thoughts. They wanted to recreate that moment, to turn the death of Giffords into an indictment on the right, to stop “horrors” like the repeal of Obamacare.
The problem was deeper than simply the reality that the facts were not following “the narrative.” With the deaths of those four little girls, it made sense to blame racism generally. Racism led people to think of their fellow humans as less than human, to consider their lives and their sacred rights to be worthless. It was right to blame racism, and equally complacency about racism for those murders. But how does opposition to high taxes lead to that? Or how about opposition to the Obamacare mandate? It just doesn’t work. You can say that racism does uniquely breed violence, but you can’t say opposition to high taxes leads to violence any more than support for high taxes does.
But there is something that fits this template effortlessly. There is a belief system that kills and not just once in a while, but constantly, as a natural outgrowth of it. Over and over again, adherents to that ideology dehumanize others and that hatred and dehumanization leads directly to murder.
What am I talking about? Islamofascism, for lack of a better word. That hateful breed of Islam. And if we were going to be consistent in the use of that template, September 11 should have been our 16th St. Bombing.
I am not about to say that Islam itself is inherently evil. I can’t purport to know one way or the other. But we can say that in the Islamic world, there is a real problem of prejudice and hatred. This is uniquely targeted at the Jews, but really it exists anywhere between the Islamofascists and the infidels. And of course to an Islamofascist, a decent Muslim often counts as an infidel.
Consider again Dr. King’s words. Just as those dead children had something to say to America, the dead on 9-11 had something to say to the world.
“[These four little girls] have something to say to every minister of the gospel who has remained silent behind the safe security of stained-glass windows.”
And the dead on 9-11 have something to say to every good Imam who has held his tongue.
“They have something to say to every politician [Audience:] (Yeah) who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism.”
And to the leaders of the Islamic world who have given their people stale bread of intolerance and the spoiled meat of anti-Semitism.
“They have something to say to a federal government that has compromised with the undemocratic practices of southern Dixiecrats (Yeah) and the blatant hypocrisy of right-wing northern Republicans. (Speak)”
And to a UN which is not ashamed to put nations like Libya in charge of human rights and to our government which has chosen the dictator we like over the democrat we didn’t.
“They have something to say to every Negro (Yeah) who has passively accepted the evil system of segregation and who has stood on the sidelines in a mighty struggle for justice.”
And to every “infidel” (broadly defined) who has done the same.
“They say to each of us, black and white alike…”
and Muslim and non-Muslim alike…
“…that we must substitute courage for caution. (Mmm) They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers.”
The template fits. But too many on the left, always so eager to try to apply this template in situations where it doesn’t apply, have no interest in following it here.
And yes, they know it fits. I have been planning to write this for days, but it was serendipitous when Fritz linked to this observation from Abe Greenwald yesterday:
Quick question: If the media really thinks Sarah Palin’s political map with crosshairs encourages political violence, why do they keep showing it? Aren’t there more potential victims “targeted” on that map?
The media never showed the Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad because they really were scared it would trigger violence (against them). So we know they’ll self-censor when they truly believe violence can happen. That they keep reproducing the Palin map suggests they know it doesn’t inspire violence after all.
They know that Islamofascism is every bit as virulent and evil as racism was in 1960’s America. And they know in their hearts of hearts that Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, etc. are not really dangerous. But while eager to try to pretend there is a 16th Street bombing moment every other week instituted by people who are only their political enemies, the American left largely ignores the real thing: September 11 and the countless terror attacks that have followed.
And that is the shameful hypocrisy of this entire display.
[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]
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–Tom Tancredo, receiving huge applause for these remarks before a 100% white audience at the Tea Party Convention in Nashville, TN where he called for the return of Jim Crow laws. 2/4/10
Tory (ae4d0b) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:11 pmScrew Tancredo, but
is racist, prejudiced, and completely untrue, Professor.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:14 pmYelvy:
So?
Got a cite for the Jim Crow bit? I must have missed that, but you know the press these days, always leaving out the important bits.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:28 pmtory
anyone who can’t see anything but white people at a tea party rally is a racist. The claim that the tea party is racist is debunked and the first resort of those who are losing the debate.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:36 pm‘On February 4, 2010, Tancredo spoke at the National Convention for the Tea Party movement where he told attendees that Barack Obama won because of “people who could not even spell the word ’vote’ or say it in English”. He then proposed “a civics literacy test” as a prerequisite to voting.’–wiki
Good idea, except you know what the skanky Democrats would do. The same thing they did in the south for generations: use literacy tests as a method to keep anyone they don’t like out of voting booths in order to establish what amounts to a Democrat dictatorship.
The only way to avoid the danger would be to simply exterminate the totalitarian Democrat Party and its leadership.
Wait a minute, I think I have an idea…
Dave Surls (e5fef2) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:38 pmAg80
THis is one of the mai reason I don’t support the Tea Party and find at its core they are very unpricipled and unamerican people – ot necessarily the followers but the leaders like Tancredo and Palin
Tacredo gave a nasty nasty speech – completely different from the written speech that was emailed to all reporters – which is shockingly disengenious – but not if you know Tank – he’s a horrible person.
From the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/05/tea-party-united-states
Tank forever discredited the good people (but now I’m not so sure) who are considered Tea Party Patriots who gave this hate filled racist a standing ovation
He was followed by Palin who should have denounced him but didnt
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:41 pmThanks, David, I did miss that. I guess he got what he deserved by not being elected. Funny how that works out.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:44 pmI don;t think the left gives a damn about what Rev. King said. After all, he also said he “dreamed” that people would be judged by their character, and not by their skin color. To the modern liberal, that’s racist.
malclave (4f3ec1) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:52 pmTory the Troll, perhaps when you suffer like the widow of Houston Police officer, Rodney Johnson, you will also want our borders closed to those who come for no other reason than to do us harm in one way or another. But then, Mrs. Johnson, with her support of closing our southern border surely is a racist, right?
Come on, show us how stupid you really are.
Now, to the comments by Aaron:
when my state was suffering due to the senseless loss of 13 soldiers at Fort Hood, we were told by the press to not jumped to conclusions about the shooter, although it was immediately reported that Nidal Hassan had shouted “Allahu Akbar” as he murdered fellow soldiers. The press never backed off that stance; no predrawn conclusions.
There are over 1 billion Muslims in this world and it is estimated that at least 10% of them subscribe to the jihadist practice of violence toward infidels (anyone not Muslim). Do the math on that 10% of 1 billion and it becomes a frightening number who have a desire to harm, maim or kill westerners. Those who bring this point home are demonized by that same press that demonizes conservatives. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” seems to be the new bi-line. SPLC lists those groups that they find dangerous, but never list the Islamic compounds (one I personally know of in Mississippi) where even law enforcement are not allowed, neighbors complain of hearing gun fire like you would at a practice range and the compound is lined with razor wire and patrolled by AK-47 carrying guards. Why is that?
September 11, 2001 was not a wake up call. It was a warning that our enemies were inside the gate. the date, 9-11, was not chosen randomly. It was the date of the defeat of the Islamic hordes at the gates of Vienna in 1683 and 9-11-01 was the reinstatement of a very old war. You see, if anything, Islamists are very, very patient.
But don’t mention that we have a real threat to our national security. Never let a crisis go to waste when it comes to pushing the far left agenda. Ignore the real threat. Just get our agenda pushed. That is all that is important.
retire05 (e0b7e7) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:57 pmum, we are trusting wiki on this?
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 1/13/2011 @ 6:58 pmEPWJ:
That’s a rather broad brush, but I understand what you’re saying.
It doesn’t change my opinion on the role of government, though.
All we seem to do is sit around and argue who is the biggest hater.
That is not the problem.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:00 pmAaron
I linked the Guardian which a little bit lefty – it actually attended the event and unfortunately the MTSU Troll maybe closer to being correct as not (well SDL – sheer dumb luck – everyone has a chance to be right… once…) the delegation were almost overwhemingly white – there were black delegates but not many
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:04 pmTancredo != Tea Party Leaders, EPWJ.
Though I concede, not enough Tea Party leaders have given him nearly enough flack, in my opinion.
In fact, I question the legitimacy of anyone claiming to be a Tea Party leader. It’s all about you and me, selection of candidates in tough primaries and general contest and our votes and cash.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:05 pmAg80
if you let your speakers say unspeakable things at some point you have to take resposibility for this.
Not ONE Tea Party group denounced Tank’s and Palins(well her obvious failure to denounce it) racism at the rally
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:06 pmYou have to go back to the Dixiecrats to point to Democrat racism… that tells us were dealing with an old white group here. Sorry, I don’t remember Gov. Wallace.
Fear of Islam – mostly by people who’ve never met a Muslim. I’m certain we have a pretty good number of white Christianists who would be good soldiers for Christ and fight the infidels.
You would think conservatives would have a better knowledge of Muslims in light of the former President and his intimate involvement with the Saudi Royal family. BTW it Saudis that are the biggest financial backers of madrassas around the world.
Tory (85f1b6) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:08 pmWell, it would seem that those people that Tory and ilk claim that Tancredo and Palin are insulting (can’t use the term “targeting” any more) are not getting the message.
According to the Pew Hispanic Research Center, the number of Hispanics that voted Republican in 2008 was 30%. The number of Hispanic that voted Republican in 2010 was 38%, a huge jump of 8% in just two years.
retire05 (e0b7e7) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:08 pmYou have to go back to
the Dixiecratsthe Obama Administration to point to Democrat racismNew Black Panthers?
malclave (4f3ec1) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:11 pmNice post.
Racist
Patterico (c218bd) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:12 pmYou have to go to the many Fox News and right wing media “scandals” that have been invented ever since Obama was elected. ‘Whitey fear the blackman – they’re coming to take what is yours!”. Van Jones, Acorn, Black Panthers, Shirley Sherrod.
tmac (85f1b6) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:14 pmHa, Al Guardian, I recall a now defunct Norwegian blogger, back in the heyday called it, Practically
narciso (6075d0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:15 pmno one remembers that speech, because of her key note a few hours later.
And forget about the real criminal- smilin’ Tom “Born again with the spirit of Jesus” Delay – doing some hard time. Hope he takes his dancin’ pants, and some lube.
tmac (85f1b6) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:16 pmSorry Eric, but I will let the Tea Party folk police their own.
That doesn’t change the fact the U.S. Is in dire financial straits. Blame who you want, but the problem won’t solve itself.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:16 pmLiteracy tests are a great idea, but what safeguards do you offer to make sure that the Democrats won’t use them to reinstitute Democrat Party totalitarian rule and totally rigged elections, like this country had for generation after generation?
We already know what the Democrats did in the past. You want to give them another shot at it?
‘He then proposed “a civics literacy test”’
That’s swell. Who’s going to decide what comprises that test and who’s going to adminster it. If liberal Democrats do it, then in short order the only people who would be allowed to vote would be liberal Democrats.
And, then we’d be right back to this…
Roosevelt: 113,791
Landon: 1,646
That’s the result of the 1936 presidential election in South Carolina, and it’s also a totally rigged election, with the liberal Democrat winning a miraculous 98.6% of the vote (kinda like Stalin or Saddam Hussein). Almost no one in South Carolina is allowed to vote…and anyone who looks like a Republican never gets near the polling place.
That’s what liberal Democrats plus stuff like literacy tests result in.
What we have now is bad…going back to that is worse, so if you want to bring back things like literacy tests, I think you need to have some kind of guarantee that will prevent swine like Roosevelt (or any other liberal totalitarian) and his southern Dem pals from using them to rig elections.
Dave Surls (e5fef2) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:17 pmDustin
The Tea Party has not show themselves to rise to the principles they like to purport to be above the rest of us – they support legalizing drugs, prostitution, abortion, yet they want less government spending which all three parties want – just not their leadership.
But after tanks, Medina and Rand Pauls insensitive campaigns that were a disgrace to everything that millions of Americans fought and sacrificed for – at some point they have to clean house of the fringe haters – who I will admit attach themselves to any counter movement and try to hijack it (Tank, Rand Paul, Medina, Angle et al)
You are right the overwhelming majority are good people but their silence on Palin/Beck Prostitution of Politics for Profit and the unrefundiation 🙂 of the haters like Tank, Paul and Medina – they can’t cry the victim all the time – they do give the left the small thinest veneer of credibility for them to stretch it totally out of purportion for their socialist aims
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:18 pmI know plenty of Muslims.
So?
What does Delay have to do with anything?
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:22 pm…
You’ve lost me.
I love the fact that ideas can earn someone money. I even liked Beck’s participation in that awesome rally, and I’m warmed up to his show. Palin speaking for cash is not a problem for me. The hate of the left has made her rich. So be it.
Only in America.
Now, you want to talk about the haters, Medina (who I call a kook more than a hater), Paul, and Tank… yeah, they deserve flack. they also get quite a bit of it. They do give the left the thinnest veneer of credibility for their smears. That is an incredibly annoying problem… probably 99% of why they bug me.
But that’s also just the way it works in a free society. Gotta have the damn kooks. The Tea Party isn’t about elevating some leader (Palin included). It’s about you choosing candidates you believe in, and supporting them.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:22 pmI meant to say, I’m warmed up to his radio show. It’s pretty funny. His TV show is a cut above the others in terms of education, but I just can’t take the sappy sap sap.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:23 pmAhhh wake up. It’s 2011. Literacy tests are designed not by Dixiecrats as in the days of Jim Crow. The roles have changed. The new racists are the teabaggers – a white supremacist splinter group from the once noble party of Lincoln. I know it is a natura tendency for conservatives to revert, but lets try to keep current.
tmac (017d51) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:26 pmAnother lying troll. Great. Like we had a shortage.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:27 pmHe’s better when he has Stu and Pat Gray, to bounce ideas off. When he’s alone, he can be a downer
narciso (6075d0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:28 pmAnother? Or a hydra-headed troll?
Simon Jester (11db5b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:29 pm@28
The new racists are the teabaggers
None of the gay men I know are racist. Or if they are, they’re quiet about it.
malclave (4f3ec1) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:31 pmI’m always amused when someone says ‘racist’ when they hear the idea of excluding on the basisi of literacy or basic intelligence. These are the kinds of liberals who wish to coddle and take care of blacks because they think they are idiots who need that kind of help.
They project their hatred, and probably shiver when they see a black person in real life. They can try to project the sins of the democrat party onto the Tea Party, but they stand for the exact opposite ideals.
I can’t say I support the political process enough to come up with a good basic test, and that disenfranchises the people that the teacher’s unions have screwed over.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:34 pmDustin
Beck and Palin and the Tea Party are pure creations of the Media – they were created by the Anderson Project – the taking of a minor candidate – make thousands of news stories about them to boost their projective name recognition into the public discourse at an accelerated rate to split conservatives and/or to halt momentum
Like Huckabee, who people covienently forget is also a democrat who switched who campaigned for Pryor and was considered the source who brought down Asia Hutchinson who was a promising leader who divorced his cheating wife yet was blamed for infidelity that never happened.
Huckabee who still had for years settled ethical charges of enriching himself in politics in Arkansas – ran purely for the cash(in 2008) just like O’Donnell in 2010 but the media boosted his exposure with the Anderson effect back in 2008 (to keep Fred out) that now he’s a totally unelectable national republican albatross thats going to “Dole” the next election to Obama or worse his Democratic replacement
This is where the Tea Party loses me, they need to understand that they are not a grass root organization -Karl Roves republican resurgence and Gingrich were genuine grass roots – The Tea Party is much much much overblown and overcredited for actual Republican Party normal activities
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:36 pmDustin, I would be happy just to see “Schoolhouse Rock” level comprehension. You know, name your two Senators and Representative, the Secretary of State, the decade in which the Civil War was fought, and something about how a bill becomes law.
My guess is that those questions would eliminate easily 40% of registered voters.
Simon Jester (11db5b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:37 pm“The Tea Party has not show themselves to rise to the principles they like to purport to be above the rest of us”
EricPW – Why are you trying to apply the same false principles which the left attempts to use against us. If somebody on our side of the aisle over which we have no control says something, we have to assume responsibility? You are really off your rocker. Also, there is no unified national Tea Party to administer discipline such as you suggest. You need to educate yourself and get a grip.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:38 pmdaleyrocks, yeah good luck with EPWJ there.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:40 pmDustin, here is the Donkey in the Room:
But I would settle for the questions I posed above. Except the questions would be called racist, I’m sure.
Simon Jester (11db5b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:40 pmWhat’s up with gay hate all of the sudden tmac?
I thought we were talking about the tendency of people you hate thousands of their fellow citizens.
Excuse me, a Tea Party mob is trying to break into my house right now. I need to help my daughter kick their walkers.
Good Lord, the left is bankrupt at the brain bank.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:40 pmmaybe he’s a Tim Pawlenty fanboy?
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:43 pmAs Obama enters his second term, the teabaggers will fade as a bad memory – a Klan like org that represented the furthest right anti government racist radicals under the false guise of fiscal responsibility.
tmac (3f7f82) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:43 pmtmac, why do you write such abject lies? Calling the TEA Party “Klan like” is just slander and a brazen falsehood.
But that’s all that we get from Democrats these days, and the public knows it.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:44 pmEasily. I’d be surprised if that test couldn’t eliminate 75%.
And it would probably lead to a much better country, though I hasten to add that the democrats are a pure populist organization. they would instantly adapt to the new standards, and it is hard to predict who they would leave behind. I can see this system having just a few subtle tweaks and becoming a government of disaffected elites.
Problem one is the teacher’s unions, though I do wish we had never lowered the voting age. Nixon…
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:46 pmif bumblef gets a second term the fiscal trainwreck will be such that the Tea Party is made largely irrelevant I think – bumble’s already presided over 3 trillion-dollar deficits can you imagine if he has four more years to wage his war on jobs?
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:46 pm“The new racists are the teabaggers”
tmac – I thought the racists were the ones who want to perpetually preserve color and ethnic differences in education and jobs, in other words progressives. Conservatives prefer a colorblind society where everybody succeeds based on their own merits, not the race-based equality of outcome approach of the socialists. Plus, you’ve got all the race pimp haters on your side, fool.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:47 pmThe lies we see from Democrats about the TEA Party, the Democrats use of ACORN/SEIU thugs to try to intimidate TEA Party people and their slanderous attempts to link mentally ill people to a grass roots political movement, all show that the greatest fear that Democrats have is real democracy.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:47 pmTrolls the left of us. Trolls to the right of us. Campaign season is right around the corner, folks.
retire05 (e0b7e7) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:47 pmWe saw a lot of these dishonest attempts in 2008, where the Democrats attempt to do false flag operations during the Denver DNC blew up in incompetence when their operative was caught while escaping from a fraudulent “vandalism” attempt.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:48 pm“daleyrocks, yeah good luck with EPWJ there.”
SPQR – He has been aggressively intellectually dishonest lately, but thanks.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:48 pmDaley
You are not a Tea Party Leader – you are a kind and decent person who wants the best for everyone
Many Texas, Tennessee and Tulsa Tea Party leaders (I mention these areas because I have extensive first hand knowledge of the leaders) are not you and If you knew the crap they spew – you would not be soo pro Palin and even mention the TPS
Many are haters pure and simple who were in the past – those damn gadflys at evey party meeting every event – you know there is always two or three who have to be asked by the Sarg at arms to be nice – or eventually escorted out continously.
The Tea Parties in Houston are a great example – the Woodlands was founded by a well respected woman – she organized the largest and finest rallies across the country – she left because of the loons, the morons who infected the leadership.
And these people know their behavior is wrong they never ever expose it to the masses
And Without the Tulsa World, The Chronicle, the Statesmen, no one would have given them the faintest of notice
I know you Daley and I would never ever insult you by calling you a Tea Party Patriot
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:50 pmTmac:
So, we agree fiscal responsibility is important. What are your ideas to solve our current problem that doesn’t involve calling people you don’t know racist ?
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:50 pmdaleyrocks, lately? Lately … hmmm, I don’t think that word means what you think it means …
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:50 pmtmac, then how do you explain black conservatives who are also in the Tea Party?
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:51 pm“they were created by the Anderson Project”
EricPW – Did you read that from one of the secret Listservs you belong to? What the heck is the Anderson Project? Links please.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:55 pm“I know you Daley and I would never ever insult you by calling you a Tea Party Patriot”
EricPW – Tea Party Patriots are not the Tea Party.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:57 pmHow about Herman Cain, Charles Lollar, and Allen West?
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:58 pmThey are different organizations.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:58 pmEPJW:
Regardless, we are faced with the fact that a whole lot of people just voted and their votes are really obvious.
However, I haven’t noticed, yet, any bills to return the U.S. to the Antebellum days.
Maybe those voters were a little more concerned about the future rather than the past.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 7:59 pmDaley
If you dont know about J.B. Anderson and the Anderson effect – I remember you are a Perot apologist – another Anderson effect
But If you dont know about Anderson, (which came close at one time to derail Reagans Presidential bid) then well – I cant discuss anything with you – if you deny the event – well then – their’s no point in continuing
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:01 pmAg80
Republicans voted in the last election – the media can call em a pig a pokey dokey a Tea Party – but the republicans voted in this last election (remember many independents are independents because of political registration voting and restraints) Many republican dont vote as much simply because they are working and commuting and can’t get home to the polls
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:04 pmHow sad that this interesting discussion has been trolled into yet another defense of the Tea Party’s bigotry. No defense is good enough. EPWJ admits, hey, tea partiers aren’t racist, hey, I know a lot of Tea Party leaders who are fine people, but… not good enough.
There is no defense that is good enough. I don’t know why, but this isn’t an argument that can be won by reason.
Can someone tell me what this Anderson conspiracy is about? In 200 words or less, please.
At any rate, it’s so unfair that any conservative momentum is always tripped up by the same race libel. The democrats will never hear much of the same smears. I don’t know why… that black church and those dead kids… that’s blood on the hands of democrats who probably loved Al Gore Sr. We just have to ignore that, while also proving beyond the infinite that we conservatives aren’t racist.
—
EPWJ, you say Beck and Palin are media creations… don’t you understand why? Because people want to hear what they have to say. That’s how the free market works for FNC. It’s really simple, and they have nothing to be ashamed of.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:06 pmwith Beck they want to hear what he has to say
with Palin they want to hear her say what they already think
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:08 pmI know who John Anderson is. I’m that old. I don’t get the point, but that’s OK. Please don’t explain it to me. I’m that old.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:09 pmHow sad that this interesting discussion has been trolled into yet another defense of the Tea Party’s bigotry.
Why do you see it that way? I see tmac needing to defend his own bigotry toward a group of Americans who love their country. Why does he hate them?
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:09 pmdaleyrocks, a Perot apologist? Well, gee, now that I know that daleyrocks is that evil, I guess I’ll give a lot more credence to EPWJ’s comments in the future.
…
Anyone want to put up dough on that likelihood?
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:10 pmEricPW – I found a video clip of 4:44 of that Tancredo speech from CNN. It’s unclear to me whether the edits in it are from the person posting the video or from CNN. My guess is CNN. If somebody has the text, a comparison should be easy.
Based on the video, the descriptions you provided earlier are wildly distorted.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:13 pmGreat thread, Ag80. Thanks for the chuckles.
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:13 pmBased on the video, the descriptions you provided earlier are wildly distorted.
I’m shocked, shocked, that a Perot apologist would doubt the word of EPWJ.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:17 pm“Ahhh wake up. It’s 2011.”
Yeah, I know what year it is, and I want to make sure we don’t wake up one fine morning and find ourselves back in 1880 when the Democrat trash were using things like literacy tests, intimidation and mass murder to make sure that no Republican candidates would ever win an election in an area controlled by Democrats.
Having a literacy test as a requirement for voting is an o.k. idea, but I want to hear a viable plan that will guarantee such tests can’t be abused by the totalitarians in the Democrat Party, before I sign on to it.
Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.
“New Black Panthers?”
Now, now don’t go bringing up facts like the fact that the racist NBBP and the ever-racist Democrat Party are so tied together that they actually have overlapping membership, or the fact that Democrat Party Congresscum have even employed New Black Panther Party thugs as “security”, just like they used to employ the KKK to do their dirty work.
Having to deal with stuff like that might cause the brains of leftoid nitwits to implode.
Dave Surls (8baa3c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:18 pmAg80
He was in third place, dropped out of the 80 primary, decided to run as an independent. A Famous Political cartoon strip started running his pretty much fake campaign, then there were hundreds of Newspaper articles about how much more conservative yet enlightened he was than Reagan – oh there was more – the 60 minutes interview (only candidate in 80 to be the focus of a softball piece in essence a 30 minute national TV commerical that said everything but that he was born in a manger in Bethlenhem PA)
Lucky Carter was such a -insert JD’s favorite descriptive here- otherwise Reagan may not have won – at one point until the Carter Reagan Debate which the sponsors refused to allow the networks to invite Anderson – Anderson had been polling in the 20’s
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:18 pmOf course, now that I think of it I was the one who caught EPWJ claiming that a video contained things it didn’t … and proving that he’d never seen it.
How could I forget that in the heat of the moment?
It must have been the Perot apology stuff that put me out of my right mind in my anger.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:19 pmPerhaps, though more and more she doesn’t. Isn’t she the only anti DADT contender for the nomination?
Anyway, other people can pick up her mantle. She has earned my appreciation several times, but I don’t really want her to be the president. I just notice that she’s probably ahead of Tpaw in your book. She is, right?
—
Dana, I see it that way because it is like a bad penny. The Tea Party, or whoever or whatever is the conservative movement of the time, whenever racism is brought up. You’re right, tmac’s a damn bigot and owes us an apology. But people on the right are very interested in somehow defeating this immortal racism slur, so I know the discussion will turn back to this millions of times over the next 2 years.
Be my guest, of course. I understand completely.
Daleyrocks, thanks for doing the homework. I’m no tank fan, but it’s good to get to the truth.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:19 pmI didn’t forget it. Poor cop did not deserve that.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:20 pmAh, see, Dustin remembers.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:22 pmwe’ll see Mr. Dustin if she came out in favor of repealing DADT that would be very very interesting and I might even rethink her… though probably not her prospects for becoming president
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:24 pmAnd, yet, he explained it to me. Thanks.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:24 pmThe ironic thing about Tancredo’s proposal is that the one group who currently have to pass a test in civics literacy before they can legally vote are–immigrants, in the form of the citizenship exam.
On the main point of your post–I think your comparison is vitiated by the fact that King was not talking about an evil external to the US, such as the jihadis, but something that was nationwide and systemic, and internal. He was holding up not a pair of binoculars to see across the ocean but a mirror to see ourselves.
kishnevi (9a730c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:25 pmDaley
Cameras were very limited at the event – If I can recall – also that doesn’t look like the event that could be another event during that week
He did have a script he gave several speeches before the convention at the covention he went way off script – way off
besides I posted the Guardians article
Look just because I have critcisms of the Tea Party doesn’t mean I at all endorse what the left did or say – I’m just sayin what needs to be said
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:25 pm“If you dont know about J.B. Anderson and the Anderson effect – I remember you are a Perot apologist – another Anderson effect”
EricPW – I know who John Anderson is and remember his run for President, but you mentioned the Anderson Project creating the Tea Party:
“Beck and Palin and the Tea Party are pure creations of the Media – they were created by the Anderson Project”
Are you now saying you were just making an analogy to Anderson? If so, I don’t even buy the analogy.
I’m also not an apologist for Perot.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:30 pmTrue. That’s a major point for them, isn’t it? People who have decided to actually be Americans, go through the hoops after hoops to make it, swear loyalty. We should give them guys 2 votes each.
there’s a big difference between being pro border control and being anti immigrant. I want all the great immigrants America can possibly attract. I ask them to be law abiding, self sufficient, and loyal to America. I also think we should have a common language. Not because I care about some purity or some ‘this is OUR country’ idea, but because we need to be one people who can communicate. It’s a damn shame when an American can’t speak English.
And my dad couldn’t speak a word of it when he came here. Even though he’s worked his ass off and is a true patriot (and speaks the language a lot better than I speak any second language).
I don’t want open borders, for a flow of failure to help Mexico relieve its horrible inequalities. I want tall walls, wide gates.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:32 pmI’m a despiser of Tancredo, having lived in his district, and I’ll believe almost anything of the idiot … unless I hear it from EPWJ.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:33 pmBloomberg and the No Labels people would be the second coming of John Anderson, if the nomination had gone to Baker or Connelly, that might have been
the result, and Carter might have stayed in office.
The point is white supremacy typified by the ‘Bombingham’ that Rice grew in, is not the ‘clear
narciso (6075d0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:33 pmand present danger’ that it was in ’63. Now matter
how much Bob Herbert and the SPLC says it is.
Yea thats not the stage
Here’s Andrew Breitbart and Palin – the stage looks different
http://www.surgeusa.org/actions/tea/nashville.htm
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:33 pm“besides I posted the Guardians article”
EricPW – I saw the Guardian piece and saw the parts of the speech to which they could refer in the clip. Look at his reference to literacy tests early in the video clip. He’s making a statement about them, not calling for them. Biased writers could easily twist that to say he was calling for them. You present your evidence, I’m presenting mine.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:33 pmjust to be clear, my previous comment regarding Tancredo was written and posted before I saw Daley’s comment 66.
kishnevi (9a730c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:35 pmSPQR
I’m not saying it – that is not me – its a reporter from a respected newspaper who quoted him directly
Note that Tank – didnt ask for a retraction – so he himself stood by the story
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SMSN_en___QA373&q=Tancredo+demands+a+retraction+from+the+guardian&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:36 pm“Why does he hate them?”
C’mon, Dana. I know why, you know why, and he knows why.
If the Tea Party movement succeeds, then every freeloader currently sucking on the taxpayer tit (including a shitload of bureaucrats and elected officials) gets booted off the tit, and into the gutter, and that means they’ll have to work for a living or starve.
What we’re threatening to do with the Tea Party is to take their free handouts away, and free handouts are pretty much all left wing dirtbags have, and all they care about.
Dave Surls (8baa3c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:36 pm“Yea thats not the stage”
Tancredo opened the convention on the 4th. Palin spoke on the 6th. Were they both at the same place, no change in stage?
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:37 pmDustin,
This silliness with tmac is a mirror image of the left’s behavior at large with Palin. They framed and fomented and provoked this national conversation to the point of insatiable hate. Palin was pressed into the wall by this hate and it continues to grow and swell and will demand even more.
I don’t like that game and tmac is playing it on a much smaller scale, yet it’s still virtually the same thing. Lie, provoke, push, force, hate. He’s a bigot. It’s an ugly quality. I won’t play.
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:38 pmnarciso, that’s a huge point. I had a conversation recently with a woman who refused to accept that things were different, fundamentally, than in 1963. Equating our problems today to that era is a slur to those who overcame.
Has anyone heard about the latest FCC move on Comcast? That’s all you need to know about why racism is pushed so hard. It is worth tremendous money. Al Sharpton himself is getting his beak wet, all in the name of an old fashioned shakedown.
I wish we had a real President.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:38 pmYep, Dana, that’s exactly what he is.
Another shameless bigot.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:40 pmNow matter
how much Bob Herbert and the SPLC says it is.
The only way to understand the so called civil rights movement is to realize that after MLK it transformed itself from something that demanded to equal rights into something that demanded special rights.
kishnevi (9a730c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:41 pmFCC and Comcast and NBC agree on various extra diversity funding measures, to gain approval for the merger.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:42 pmDana is right, but the goal is to be so aggressive, unpleasant, and extreme as to drive off more moderate people—leaving the field to the h8ers!
Simon Jester (11db5b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:42 pmDaley
Thats not the same speech – thats not the convention – he gave that speech i several places – at the convention he emailed the same speech in your clip – but went way off – acordig to the guardian
He did not ask for a retraction – which he should have in they totally made up stuff – he didnt – so he stands by their story
Tank himself – blame me if you want but the point is
The Guardian said he said it – Tank didnt say otherwise – a grainy clip on a different stage from the other speakers shows a different speech?
So what is everyone to believe? I believe he said it, the Guardian Believes he said it – two people including my neighbor were there and confirmed he said it
He also could have been making those comments on his post speech glad handing with the attendees that was quoted – which to me is the same as the speech
EricPWJohnson (d84fb0) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:42 pmEricPW – Here’s another video clip with Rachel Maddow talking about it. Go in about 45 seconds. Seems like you are all wet.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:43 pmComment by Dave Surls — 1/13/2011 @ 8:36 pm,
I know. I just like to ask the question of the haters. It’s always surprising to realize how little, if ever, they stop to contemplate the why’s and wherefores and motivations of their own bigotry.
Dana (8ba2fb) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:43 pm“I’m a despiser of Tancredo, having lived in his district, and I’ll believe almost anything of the idiot …”
I live in California, so I don’t keep track of Colorado politicians that much, but what little I’ve heard about the guy seemed o.k.
What are his bad points?
Dave Surls (8baa3c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:43 pmIf I ever needed a reason to confirm that EPWJ is just a Moby, it is his claiming that the Guardian is a “respected” newspaper.
It is not.
Once again, EPWJ lives down below even my poor opinion of him.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:44 pm“He did not ask for a retraction – which he should have in they totally made up stuff – he didnt – so he stands by their story”
Complete BS standard. You have no knowledge whether he asked for a retraction and his not asking for one does not mean he stands by a left wing rag’s reporting.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:47 pmthat’s extortion, it’s corrupt, and it’s certainly part of why America is increasingly an international economic laughingstock
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:47 pmas anyone heard about the latest FCC move on Comcast
I hadn’t. Although, having to deal with Comcast as a customer (because they have the cable franchise for my area–until AT&T’s U-verse started up last year, a monopoly granted them by the city and county governments), I’m not exactly fired up in righteous anger by the idea of anyone making a move on them.
kishnevi (9a730c) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:50 pmI’m not saying you’re wrong, EPJW, but The Guardian isn’t exactly the most objective source. I mean The National Enquirer gets things right sometimes. Having a British accent doesn’t mean it’s true.
But, that doesn’t it is not.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:50 pmhappyfeet, preach it.
I don’t see why in the hell anyone would want special race based channels, or channels allocated to ownership by a race. How does that work, anyway? Why not sell some stock?
And it’s soooooooo dated. I can’t think of a TV show I’ve watched in the past ten years that didn’t have some substantial minority presence other than Seinfeld.
This is the administration paying back many favors to Al Sharpton and the NAACP. Millions of dollars changing hands. I’m sure the NAACP would happily open their books to me if I asked, as would Sharpton.
We’ve come a long way since the days of church burnings (At least black church burnings), and I would take today’s problems over yesterday’s, but this is totally unacceptable.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:53 pm“Daleyrocks, thanks for doing the homework. I’m no tank fan, but it’s good to get to the truth.”
Dustin – I’m not a huge Tank fan either, but smears are smears. They started on the left, but there is no reason for us to contribute to them.
daleyrocks (e7bc4f) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:54 pmI had that for a while and really liked it. Though I checked recently and they are much more expensive now.
Presently, I have a nice internet connection and Netflix. It’s damn cheap, and I am damn well entertained. I will probably add hulu, though.
It sure doesn’t sound like NBC’s lineup will be getting any better. Not that I have any problems with a diverse set of actors or producers, but when it’s diversity for it’s own sake, in today’s world, the quality suffers badly.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:56 pmwhen the channels fail it will be a “market failure,” not a dirty socialist one
happyfeet (aa4bab) — 1/13/2011 @ 8:57 pm(having read the details about Comcast)
IOW, Comcast/NBC will have to subsidize competitors to BET and Oprah’s channel. Which could work to their advantage, if they can leverage this bit of hidden rent seeking into forcing BET and Oprah out of business (or at least force them to stay in business on Comcast’s terms)
kishnevi (9a730c) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:02 pmWith all apologies to Aaron, this one is done.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:10 pmkishnevi, I’m sure, to them, this is just the cost of doing business in Obama’s America. They surely already do business in the Chicago area, and are not fazed much. This is a huge deal of many billions, so the tens of millions… no big deal. They will probably do their best with these programs to minimize the sunk costs, much as I bake the apples I can’t eat fresh.
Al Sharpton can get a new Porsche, too.
At the end of the day, it’s simply injustice, and I’m sure we both find it completely unacceptable.
I doubt your prediction of an out of business BET will come to pass. Somehow, we will wind up paying to keep it around.
I am confident this is not what MLK was dreaming about.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:12 pmSo I am trying to figure who was objecting in the deal, Comcast really, NBC, certainly not the FCC.
narciso (6075d0) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:13 pmthe truth is this is all about the fear that the new republican owners will bring the smack down on ultra liberal msnbc.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:17 pmThis seems to fit in this thread;
http://theothermccain.com/2011/01/12/salvia-zeitgeist-and-the-tucson-shooter/
narciso (6075d0) — 1/13/2011 @ 9:21 pmTea Klux Klan, my what an amazing amount of hatred you bear, to lie like that. The very quote you present contradicts your description of it. The proposed standard does not eliminate criticism. That claim is simply a falsehood.
More interesting is to compare the biased story you link to, to the original story they purport to base their reporting upon. Commmercial Appeal story. That comparison shows just how biased the website you read is.
Probably the source of all your hatred are your biased news sources, klan member. You’d be better informed too.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:35 amYelverton thinks the KKK is just a punchline, and can’t distinguish between the KKK and an organization asking for no tax hikes or huge deficits.
No surprise, then, that Yelverton fits the profile of creeps. Single white male with no social skills and a twisted version of liberalism that most lefties wouldn’t really identify with. Raw Story links, every day, from a new imbecilic handle.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:40 amLet’s just compare his abortion screed, to joke about incest+rape victims being forced to bear children for their evil attackers. That’s very similar to Loughner’s ‘argument’ for pro life, which was to joke about an atrocious violence.
Yelverton is a serious threat. There are a couple of people he has tried to screw with IRL, and they are well advised to keep their surroundings in mind as best they can. Most Yelvertons never shoot up a safeway, but you never can tell.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:43 amTKK
Your desperation (and ass) is showing.
consider for instance, this accusation.
> “to portray conservatism more positively”
well, if the old textbooks said, “conservatives were all evil” and the new one said, “we should not portray either side as evil” that would be MORE positive… right? So basically with no specifics to evaluate for myself, how am I supposed to conclude that this is a bad thing.
Or consider this part:
> nationally lauded school integration policies
What policies? All integration is automatically good? in fact what integration is, is a race-conscious solution designed to undo the effects of more widespread discrimination. for instance, in charlotte (when i lived there) they had quotas for black populations in each school and would bus black kids up to 2 hours to get them integrated.
This was all based on a finding by a court that actions by state officials had intentionally segregated the entire city, merely saying that schools would go by neighborhood without regard to race was not enough–the neighborhoods themselves were segregated, and that segregation was done by the state and not by private choices.
The supreme court has said, however, and I think rightly so, that ordinarily the law merely requires desegregation. This race-conscious integration is only justified because of the state action in physically segregating the city. Therefore, as a TEMPORARY SOLUTION the court will consider race in order to counter the effects of governmental racial action. But the moment it becomes clear that the city is no longer being affected by that past action, then integration would die. And it might very well be the case that it is dead now. I just haven’t kept track.
The point is that the default under the constitution is that race is not supposed to be considered. Thus what happened in Wake County could be nothing more than a determination that the past behavior of the state is no longer affecting the present. And if that is the case, then integration—as the term is properly understood—is not only unjustified, but actually unconstitutional as itself constitutes a race-based classification.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:44 amExcuse me, but I meant Loughner’s argument for pro-choice. I sorely wish Loughner was pro-life, because then perhaps that would have been an acknowledgment that you shouldn’t kill people. But, alas, no, he had no value for human life.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:45 amLoughner is a paranoid schizophrenic. Discussions of his “values” are ridiculous. The mentally ill do not have “values”. They have pathologies.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:46 amSPQR
Fixed that for you.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:51 amAnd yet, a lot of paranoid schizophrenics do have values. I can’t say I know that Loughner was in control, or knew what he was doing was wrong, but I think it’s more of an open question than an absolute, one way of the other.
And I certainly see the same pathology or lack of values in the arguments Yelverton has made, and the incredible paranoia and anger he displays.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:51 amHowever, like I said, Loughner’s politics or values, even if they happen to agree with someone else’s (such as his pro choice view) do not mean anything about a sane person with that same view.
His crimes were not caused by his left wing or not-so-left wing ideas, but rather something much more twisted.
Similarly, I don’t think Yelverton’s crazed BS has anything to do with politics.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:54 amDustin, the fundamental pathology of the disease is that the person’s reactions have nothing to do with logic, or rational reasoning from premises through to conclusions. So I disagree, they don’t have “values”.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/14/2011 @ 9:55 amSPQR, the pathology of schizophrenia is delusions, and difficulty with emotions and concentration, as well as emotional problems.
It’s not the case that schizos lack values. This one lacked some very basic values, and I think it’s easy to blame that on his being a schizo, but I think he’s a special case. I also don’t think his behavior can entirely be blamed on his mental disease. Anyone who kills innocent people has some kind of major defect, but this guy was a loser who was making a last ditch effort to be somebody by killing someone he hated (and failed even there). He wasn’t simply doing this because of an illogical, random reaction.
True, a lot of his views on the world were illogical, and that’s what I mean by delusion. But moving from that point to saying the schizo had no values is not justified.
In fact, I know a schizo whose values are Christianity. The delusions remain, the emotional … void remains, and the difficulty reasoning remains. But this person is often able to fall back on their Christian values when they can’t logically think through a choice.
Like Loughner, my example is not one that can define the entire disease.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 10:07 amAnd when you look at my understand of this illness: delusions, emotional problems, rationality problems, I think it becomes clear why I am so disturbed by Yelverton’s mental illness.
Perhaps I am a bit naive and optimistic, but I strongly suggest people try to get paranoid schizophrenics around them involved with something that helps them with basic values. If they are going to be obsessed with something, it’s particularly useful if they are obsessed with something with a basic code. The folly there is that people do evil in the name of religion, but at least there’s that basic code they have to break. ‘thou shalt not…’ etc.
I’ve seen this work, first hand. I know it can’t work all the time.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 10:14 ambtw, that wasn’t the famous skin fluter from Tennessee.
i know who it is and its a guy who was put into moderation. so back into moderation he goes until patterico can decide on him.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 1/14/2011 @ 10:21 amWillie the racist hilljack has posed as a guy, a girl, and a Klan member in the last day. Middle Tennessee State University must be so proud.
JD (109425) — 1/14/2011 @ 10:23 amI doubt your prediction of an out of business BET will come to pass
The people at BET seem to know what they are doing. I don’t expect them to go out of business, but they do have to adjust to the fact that Comcast has gone from being a cable company that lets people watch BET to a company with a stake of yet-to-be determined size in a direct competitor of BET. Unless Comcast simply intends to get a bunch of black businessmen to invest in a NASCAR channel, which I doubt. More likely the black ownership will be front men staked by Comcast/NBC who will be expected to run things for the benefit of Comcast/NBC.
Somehow, we will wind up paying to keep it around.
If anything, it will be these new channels we’ll be paying for.
kishnevi (bb994a) — 1/14/2011 @ 12:20 pmComing in late:
1. The Grauniad is not a respected newspaper.
2. Why should he ask for a correction?
3. I have no idea whether he was advocating the return of literacy tests, nor do I care. I am advocating exactly that; I have never understood why Congress banned them in the first place. I understand that in some places they were unfairly administered; how is that different from driving tests, or school tests, or any other test that in the hands of a bad administrator can be turned into a tool of oppression?
The answer in all such cases is to fire the person who deliberately maladministers the test, and make sure that it can’t happen again. In the case of literacy tests to determine eligibility for voting, why does the test have to be administered on election day? Why not do it when the person registers? That way if there’s a problem he has time to get it sorted out. If he believes the tester was unfair he can lodge a protest. Certainly if it someone was giving white people were a different and easier test than he was giving to black people, that would be easily caught and corrected. Instead Congress threw out the baby with the bathwater, and the result is that people who have no business voting have corrupted the system.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 1/14/2011 @ 1:44 pmThis thread was kind of surreal.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/14/2011 @ 1:48 pmSpeaking of politics in the Islamic world (as the original poster was): the last several days have seen street protests against a tyrranical regime in the Arab world result in that regime being forced from power, in a story which is strikingly reminiscent of the Velvet Revolution (albeit with more violence on the part of the government).
Lovers of freedom in the west should be jumping for joy.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:27 pmaphrael, that sounds approximately one million times more newsworthy than the sad shooting in Tucson.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:29 pmSimon Jester: I find it odd that a conservative would be willing to delegate to the government the power of determining who is a moron and who is a genius. Why would the government be better at doing that than at maintaining the roads in good condition, delivering the mail in a speedy fashion, or providing good service at the DMV?
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:29 pmDustin: I subscribe to two newspapers on my kindle – the International Herald-Tribune (eg, the European edition of the NYT, a paper I read regularly when I was in Europe and which is much more focused on international news than domestic US news) and the San Francisco Chronicle.
The story coming out of Tunisia has been the lead story in the IHT every day, except Monday, this week. It seems to be getting much less press here.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:31 pm“The Grauniad is not a respected newspaper.”
It’s well thought of by people in the fish wrapping profession.
Dave Surls (4d6c6f) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:31 pmHe makes a damn good case.
I have to say, that kind of power was abused so badly in the past. I can only imagine the selective enforcement problems. Holder would utterly ruin out country with this kind of responsibility.
No thanks. Like I said, education is the key.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:33 pmAphrael, if you read the newspaper every day, the savings for that alone justifies the entire price of the Kindle. And no more trash. It’s the kind of thing I was expecting to have in my flying car by 2011.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:35 pmDustin: I wasn’t even considering the problem of abuse, as I tend to like the “never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence” theorem … but, yeah. The problem with the power to abuse restrictions on the electorate is that it’s very hard to stop the abuse, because the people who want the abuse stopped are likely to be the very people frozen out by the abuse.
Besides … while the Supreme Court did say, in 1957, that literacy tests were constitutional, it’s really not clear that that’s consistent with their decision several years later striking down poll taxes in state elections. I’d be surprised if it were allowed under modern equal protection doctrine.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:37 pmDustin: the newspaper cost savings (combined with some unbudgeted and therefore free-ish money I got as part of a “valuable employee” award) was one of the things which made me decide to get a kindle. 🙂
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:38 pmWell, Aphrael, it’s also true that the government would probably fail to even make the test properly, or administer it very accurately. But my concern is simply that eventually someone would find it irresistible to play politics with such a test.
Even in our modern times, the DOJ is quite racist in how it enforces voter intimidation and civil rights. There’s a ‘suspect class’, which in my view, is itself a racist claim that non-suspect classes are more disposed to prejudice.
I could go on and on for a while, and surely lose most of y’all, but at the end of the day, we should require people to know a few basic things in order to teach a child, and in order to hold a high school diploma. People lacking a diploma may still vote, but I think this idea would lead to a better society.
Education is a critical problem in our country, and the solution is to get the corrupting bloated money out, and fail the failures.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:44 pmAnd vouchers, of course.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:44 pmHeh. I guess if I can try hijacking with Tunisia, you can try hijacking with vouchers. 🙂
I voted against the voucher initiative the last time we had one in California. My basic problem was this: by dumping a bunch of money into the system, you’d guarantee that cost of admission would rise (as demand would rise). In theory, it should then fall as new schools enter the market. BUT, unless you also change land-use policies to make it easier for new schools to get approval to start up (which requires changing rules that prohibit certain industrial activities near schools, as otherwise existing industrial concerns would bring political pressure to bear to prevent the land use approval), you won’t get the new entrants … meaning that all you’ve achieved is inflation in the cost of attendance, mostly the same set of people attending, only now the schools are subsidized by the state.
Vouchers without simultaneously creating and enforcing policies which require local planning boards to approve land use for private schools wouldn’t solve the problem; it would actually, IMO, make the problem worse.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:51 pmthat is logical.
And let me add: I know some of these private schools are utter crap.
But let the market decide. I suspect we need to give this idea a chance. A good ten years at least. Some areas have such bad schools that this is plainly low risk proposition.
Like those digital TV decoders, there will be a huge incentive to ensure the price is relatively close to the voucher. I think a private school 20% more than the voucher cost would still get many customers. The pressure this puts on other schools, including for educational possibility is substantial.
there will be many innovations we haven’t heard of yet. Perhaps private schools would band together for better sporting facilities and theater. You never know.
What I do know is that California needs change, urgently. Status quo will lead to morons will lead to status quo.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 5:56 pmDustin: I think you may have missed my point. 🙂
My concern is that in order for vouchers to work, you need to remove barriers to entry for new private schools. I think that in California’s system of land-use regulation, those barriers to entry are such that, even with a big pot of voucher money, new schools would have a difficult time entering the market … meaning that what would happen is that existing schools would raise rates, keep serving the existing customer base, and now be subsidized by the state.
So: no net gain in the number of people enrolled in private school (or, at least, minimal); minimal increased competitive pressure on public schools; money diverted to support existing clients of existing private schools.
Unless you change the land-use rules to reduce the barriers against new schools entering the market.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/14/2011 @ 6:01 pmI do see your point, Aphrael. I’m honestly ignorant of that issue as it pertains to California. I’m used to you being on the mark on this sort of thing, so I just grant that sounds pretty crummy and perhaps it wouldn’t work well. Or perhaps this is one barrier, among many, and I’m asking for a different one to be relieved in hopes that the others eventually are too, somehow.
I don’t know that schools could easily be opened under the situation you describe. Maybe, maybe not. Your conclusion is that nothing gets better, and the only harm is less money for public schools. I don’t think that will hurt anything. Cutting the budgets of public schools that spend absurd sums on absurd things won’t hurt anybody… and might help.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/14/2011 @ 6:08 pm