Patterico's Pontifications


Another Anti-Islamic Bigot Comes Out Against the Ground Zero Mosque

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 11:15 am

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; send your tips here.]

Geez, don’t you know that only people who hate Muslims oppose building a Mosque at Ground Zero?  Take this guy for instance:

Some critics of the proposed Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan, including commentators on Fox News, have linked the project to terrorism by seizing on a Saudi prince’s past financial backing of the imam at the center of the controversy….

“I have been associated with this mosque in New York, but frankly speaking, I have nothing to do with it,” he said in an interview. “I’m not for putting that mosque there.”

Prince Walid offered a two-pronged explanation for why he was opposed to the project: he said out of respect for Islam, it does not belong at the proposed location because of its proximity to a strip club; and out of deference to the families of 9/11 victims who might feel antagonized, the Islamic center should not be near ground zero. “I respect all religions,” he said.

Of course it might be useful to have a little background on this.  Walid (sometimes spelled Waleed) is famously used by liberals as a hammer on Fox News, a bit of idiocy I tore down, here.  Also you can see where I argue that this “moderate” imam might not be as moderate as claimed here and here.  For instance, I quote this comment:

We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims.

And then I take it apart as follows (with one slight edit for language):

Now let’s unpack that.  Notice the comparison, how he stacks up the scales.  First he says precisely that the United States has “Muslim blood” on its hands.  Not the blood of innocent Muslims, mind you, just plain Muslim blood.  So for instance presumably if a United States missile paints bin Laden’s guts all over the back of a cave in Bumfrakistan, that counts.  Silly me I think there are some Muslims we should be downright happy to kill, but in his mind we should be killing no Muslims, I suppose.

And then against that, he says we should count the number of innocent non-Muslims against al Qaeda.  Isn’t that funny?  I thought this guy specifically wanted to build that mosque in order to honor the innocent Muslims killed on 9-11, and suddenly he doesn’t think that the Muslims murdered by al Qaeda count?…

And really, leaving them out does eliminate a lot of death, because the statistical ugly reality has been for a while that al Qaeda is actually more likely to kill innocent Muslims than anyone else.  I mean there is that.

And finally, while the vast majority of those opposed to the GZM say that they can’t legally be stopped, I make the case that in fact it can be stopped by the federal government citing the Historic Sites Act.  So Obama and the Democrats can’t pretend there is nothing they can do.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

47 Responses to “Another Anti-Islamic Bigot Comes Out Against the Ground Zero Mosque”

  1. Racist!

    daleyrocks (940075)

  2. I still have faith that the GZ mosque will be scuttled by reasonable men and women from all stripes and religions. But time will tell…



    heir2freedom (d9456e)

  3. Prince Talal is a shrewd investor, the Middle East studies of Georgetown (where he took an ethics course with Bill Clinton, once upon a time) and
    Harvard, he knows when to bail out a bad deal

    ian cormac (c07a45)

  4. heir

    well, if this guy was actually an investor, this WOULD be evidence that they aren’t going to get their money.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  5. The significant fact about the Islamic Terrorists is not that they are Islamic, but that they are terrorists – or to be blunt, barbarians. I don’t expect the establishment Left to acknowledge this because if it became fashionable to condemn the barbaric a lot of their precious Role Models (Mao, Che) would be tossed in the ashcan of history. I’m a little surprised that so few people from other arcs of the political spectrum Get It.

    How do I DARE call people Barbarians? Simple; there has to be some kind of standard. If we aren’t prepared to describe a culture that treats women the way Radical Islam does as Barbarous, then why do we have laws against rape? If we aren’t prepared to condemn the rise of a new Islam driven slave trade in Africa, then what the hell did we fight our own Civil War over? I’m not perfect. America is not perfect. The Radicals of Islam are still Barbarians.

    As for the Moderates of Islam; maybe if we had been ready to call the Barbarians on their savagery a while back, there might be more of them.

    C. S. P. Schofield (e4bd33)

  6. The Saudi funder of the Islamic center is a major investor in Fox.

    Feisal Abdul Rauf is a Sufi, a muslim new-age flake. Sufi mosques have been bombed recently in Pakistan. You might as well accuse Christians as being supporters of the IRA. He’s a fool. The Saudi backer of the mosque, Murdoch’s friend Walid, is a scumbag not because he’s muslim but because he’s a Wahhabi who plays both sides of the fence.
    It’s all as stupid as you are.

    But as long as were talking nutjobs

    A hundred year old church was burned Friday by right-wing Israeli settlers, who broke a number of windows of the church and hurled Molotov cocktails inside.

    The church was built in Jerusalem in 1897, and housed the Palestinian Bible College until 1947, when parishioners were pushed out by Jewish armed gangs during the violence accompanying the creation of the state of Israel.

    Christians make up 2% of the population of both Israel and the Palestinian Territories – the number used to be around 15%, but many Christians from the Holy Land have emigrated due to the harsh conditions of the Israeli occupation, and discrimination against them by the Israeli state.

    This is not the first time that Israeli right-wingers have destroyed churches and church property – a number of Chrisitan churches were destroyed during the second initfada (uprising) that began in 2000, and many more were destroyed by Israeli forces during the 1948 and 67 wars.

    In 2006, an Israeli couple tried to firebomb an ancient church in Nazareth, the city where Chrisitans believe that Jesus Christ lived 2000 years ago. An Israeli court which tried the case failed to convict the couple of any charges.

    A leader in the church attacked on Friday, Zachariah al-Mashriqi, told reporters that the attack on the church was a clear attempt to provoke Palestinians to respond in anger. He urged Palestinian Christians to respond to the attack with virtue and patience.

    Al-Mashriqi urged the Israeli government to act responsibly and condemn the attack, and work on investigating the attack to find out who was involved and actually file charges in the case. He asked the Israeli government to protect holy sites in the city of Jerusalem, as these sites come under increasing attack by Israeli settlers.

    Gunsel Burnstein (d80b5a)

  7. Gunsel,

    What church was burnt? I noticed your article can’t even spell the word “Christian” and I suspect it’s yet more blood libel.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  8. I googled “Palestinian bible church” and the only people who seem to be reporting on this church burning are quoting this poorly written article, or even more obviously anti-Israel.

    No photos, no legitimate news orgs, no one even naming the church.

    Not that I pretend Israelies are perfect. Surely by now an Israeli or two has done something wrong… nothing as bad as launching hundreds of rockets to target civilians, though.

    “Zachariah al-Mashriqi” seems to have had his church burnt before (again an unnamed church with no pictures or major media coverage, yet he knows for sure Jews did it).

    I’m calling BS even if you do come up with pictures. How do you know the people burning the church are right wingers, anyway? Who uses terminology like that?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  9. Dustin,

    So what I’ve been hearing is that the Palestinians may have uncovered a huge early (rather wealthy) Christian setlement that some are speculating was the society that may have created or commissioned the dead sea scrolls. The radio descriptions of the elaborate mosaics rival the findings of Pompei.

    This could be a source of income to them if they manage it right and use it as a major tourist attraction

    I know its sounds pollyanna of me but the more things – EXTREMELY SLOWLY IF NOT PAINFULLY SLOWLY – normalize for the palestinians – the more generic peace will come to the area as people are busy with life rather than what their hneighbor has – which to me is more what is going on rather than strident religious differences

    EricPWJohnson (2d1c68)

  10. Does Gunsel even know what a gunsel is (not that there is anything wrong with it)?

    Ira (28a423)

  11. I know its sounds pollyanna of me but the more things – EXTREMELY SLOWLY IF NOT PAINFULLY SLOWLY – normalize for the palestinians […]

    We both feel that way, but I’m Pollyanna myself sometimes.

    I feel the same way about many parts of the world.

    I sure hope to visit the location you describe someday, should it pan out.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  12. You believe what you want to believe.

    From the NPR link

    Yet the parent company of Fox News shares a financial backer with the imam who is at the center of the firestorm. The second-largest holder of voting stock in News Corp. is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, a nephew of the Saudi king. And through his philanthropies, Waleed has given generously to initiatives pursued by the imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf.

    But that connection has not been spelled out by Fox to viewers. Fox’s intense coverage of the Islamic center, combined with its lack of disclosure about the corporate connection to Waleed, has sparked scorn from some media critics and from liberals — including, repeatedly, from satirist Jon Stewart.

    So stupid.

    Gunsel Burnstein (14e3bb)

  13. I blame Fox. And the jooooooooooos.

    JD (c8c1d2)

  14. #

    You believe what you want to believe.

    Excuse me, but you need to back up your allegations.

    What evidence is there that Jews burned this church? What is the name of the church? Why was the same story printed months ago? Why are there no other sources validating your claims?

    It’s not unreasonable for me to ask you these questions. Blood libel against Jews is a common problem and I won’t stand for it.

    I don’t care about your NPR claims about Fox News. That’s an old story of absolutely no importance to me. Rupert Murdoch was a Hillary Clinton supporter and is a democrat. Fox News is a business rather than a propaganda outlet, and it’s successful because it is more trusted than the competition.

    You know why? Because they back up their claims with evidence. Unlike you.

    Can you back up your serious accusations? Or are you going to try to change the subject some more?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  15. “The Saudi funder of the Islamic center is a major investor in Fox.”

    Gunsel – No, he is a major investor in Newscorp, a holding company of which Fox is but one of many operations. Please try to do a better job reading and understanding if you want people to understand the unrelated information you post here.

    If you want to say you hate Jews, go right ahead, instead of posting unverified propaganda.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  16. And NPR shares a financial backer with Media Matters and Brett Kimberlin. For all their pretense about tolerance, it doesn’t take much for them to lose their cool whenever Fox News is mentioned.

    Roger Ailes noticed speech from the left dominated the MSM. Did he try to ban it or fight it into submission like Soros? Nope. He just added his own voice. NPR can’t take it, because they know an informed public if doom for the Alinksy plan for radicalization of America.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  17. Well he’s more Tory, or in his native Australia, a Liberal then Democrat, but he leans moderate in a number of areas, like immigration. I’m surprised anyone would seriously even be bringing this up,
    this is a ‘dead parrot’ move

    ian cormac (c07a45)

  18. Soros’ money is good and pure and full of jooooooo hate, Dustin.

    JD (c8c1d2)

  19. Dustin – That convicted inside trader Soros money is buying 100 fair and balanced reporters at NPR. Heh!

    daleyrocks (940075)

  20. Guys, if you follow my links, you learn that waleed owns only 7% of news corp. murdoch owns about 40% which with how votes tends to go, means pretty much anything he says, goes.

    Waleed is powerless. He is merely trying to make money off of a company with a history of making money.

    Does MSNBC constantly tell you who own stock in all their parents? i doubt it. indeed, i am not even sure they usually know.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  21. this is a ‘dead parrot’ move

    Comment by ian cormac

    Right. He’s calling us ‘so stupid’ while enlightening us to his latest discovery… which is just boring old news from a decade ago.

    But that’s a good correction on Murdoch’s politics.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  22. Let’s not forget about the Jewish synagogues that were systematically destroyed in East Jerusalem after 1948 or the more recent destruction of Jewish holy sites by Palestinians during the second intifada (the tomb of Joseph is the most notorious incident). Nor the Palestinian harrassment of Jews worshipping at the Kotel by throwing stones, etc. Nor the fact that much of the Christian emigration is the result of Muslim harrassment of Christians.

    Meanwhile, Aaron, you need to walk back some of what you said in the original post. I’m sure Prince Walid is thinking of civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus those Iraqis that died as the result of sanctions before the war–most of those deaths (especially those in Iraq) are blamed by Muslims on the US, rightly or wrongly.

    kishnevi (1b86f1)

  23. Gunsel’s quote is nonsense. Israel does not discriminate against Christians; the PA does. That’s why their numbers have declined so dramatically in PA-controlled areas. Bethlehem used to be a Xian-majority city, until the PA took over. It was Arafat’s people who trashed the Church of the Nativity. It’s the “palestinians” who shout from the rooftops that “first we kill the Saturday people, and then the Sunday people”. Oh, and I like the reference to the Jewish defense forces in the Independence War as “Jewish armed gangs”.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  24. Oh, I forgot the most important example of Palestinian vandalism–the ongoing effort by Palestinian religious authorities to destroy all traces of the Temple of Jerusalem via building projects, excavations, etc. in the immediate area of the Dome of the Rock.

    kishnevi (1b86f1)

  25. “Gunsel” is Yiddish for “gosling”. One obscure slang meaning, at least in the early 20th century, was apparently “punk”; I’ve never heard it used that way in Yiddish, but then the people I speak Yiddish with don’t use that kind of language. That, however, is the sense in which English borrowed it, presumably during the days of the Jewish gangs (by which I mean Murder Inc., etc., not Etzel and the Haganah!)

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  26. You know when I’m in my darker moods, one speculates what would have happened if the US hadn’t blocked Saddam from entering the Arabian Peninsula, then Osama’s Afghan Arabs would have been left to fight the Iraqis, I think the latter would have done short work of them, there would have been some economic disruption, but maybe
    there wouldn’t have been this automatic blaming of the US for everything, ha who am I kidding

    ian cormac (c07a45)

  27. “Meanwhile, Aaron, you need to walk back some of what you said in the original post.”

    kishnevi – The quote Aaron uses is from Imam Rauf, not Prince Walid. You are correct that Rauf believes that the U.S. us responsible for deaths under the sanctions imposed on Iraq. That does not mean we have to agree with him.

    I am confused as to exactly what you are suggesting A.W. needs to walk back.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  28. Kishinevi, it’s not Walid who accused the USA of having more innocent blood on its hands than al Qaeda; that was the so-called “moderate” Rauf.

    Actually if you look at the quote it’s very cleverly worded; what he’s really comparing is all Moslems killed by the USA, guilty or innocent, with innocent non-Moslems killed by al Qaeda. And he may very well be correct, that the first number is greater than the second. We’ve killed a lot of al Qaeda, Taliban, and assorted other enemies over the past two centuries (plus an unknown number of collateral damage), while al Qaeda has only killed no more than 5000 innocent non-Moslems (plus many innocent Moslems). So what?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  29. “plus those Iraqis that died as the result of sanctions before the war”

    That one kinda drives me nuts, but I guess Ms Albright’s commentary makes it very difficult for me to defend my country.

    At any rate, Saddam’s rule was one of massive death for Iraqis and Iranians, and it would be awfully hard for the aftermath of this war to keep up. And it hasn’t… not even close.

    Your points on Israel are well informed.

    Milhouse, the whole name “Gunsel Burnstein” sounds like an attempt to mockingly sound Jewish, perhaps to Jimmy Carter’s ears. I am not well read on anti Israel propaganda… I saw a link to “jewwatch” on Democratic Underground, and it used some commentary like that.

    I think he’s trying to be clever.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  30. I think Gunsel is just one of our old friends like AF/blah coming back to pay us another visit.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  31. Well, daley, they are hurting in advance of Tuesday. So of course they need to rant and spit and moan.

    Eric Blair (dcced2)


    In a recent interview, the leading Franciscan in the Holy Land lamented the discrimination that Christians face in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

    In the latter, “there is a Muslim majority who find it increasingly difficult to take notice of Christians because they are always fewer, even in the areas that were traditionally Christian,” says Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa, custos of the Holy Land. At times, he adds, “the idea circulates that to be good patriots one must be Muslim.”

    In Israel, “from the point of view of laws there is no discrimination; there are, however, in fact, inequalities of treatment, of approach, which particularly strike the Christian minority … There is a deep-rooted prejudice that was born and developed in the course of the centuries in Judaism in confrontations with Christianity for reasons that are known and that in Israel become tangible.”

    Father Pizzaballa offered strong criticism to the proposed new loyalty oath to Israel, not as a state per se, but as a Jewish state. The oath would primarily affect Palestinian Muslims and Christians who wish to marry Palestinian Israeli citizens.

    “It’s an unjust law because in the Middle East, as also in Israel, the separation of state and Church doesn’t exist, and then in this very intricate identity complex it creates very strong and also unjust hardships, because it’s an injustice to make someone who is not a Jew declare fidelity to Jewish principles,” he said.

    Another Saudi prince
    BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince

    Saudi Arabia’s rulers threatened to make it easier for terrorists to attack London unless corruption investigations into their arms deals were halted, according to court documents revealed yesterday.

    Previously secret files describe how investigators were told they faced “another 7/7” and the loss of “British lives on British streets” if they pressed on with their inquiries and the Saudis carried out their threat to cut off intelligence.

    Prince Bandar, the head of the Saudi national security council, and son of the crown prince, was alleged in court to be the man behind the threats to hold back information about suicide bombers and terrorists. He faces accusations that he himself took more than £1bn in secret payments from the arms company BAE.

    Never mind children, I’ll go away again now.

    Gunsel Burnstein (d80b5a)

  33. Another gibbering gibbon.

    JD (c8c1d2)

  34. No, don’t go away. Are you able to back up the first article you posted, where you said Jews blew up a church, but never said how it was evident their were Jewish? What was the name and location of the church? Any coverage from a major media source?

    Are you really just going to ignore this accusation you have leveled? Talking about centuries of an identity complex from Jewish oppression of Christians is hilarious and worth talking about, but I’ve been down this road before. Why try to keep up with every article you can spam the blog with?

    Can you back up the FIRST one first?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  35. Oh, I see. So this piece of s—t admits that there’s no legal discrimination against Xians, but complains that Jews have a historical suspicion of and dislike for Xians; gee, I wonder why. Have a look at the history of the past 2000 years for a clue. Over the past few decades people like Jerry Falwell (on the Protestant side) and the last few popes (on the Catholic side) have done a lot to reform Xianity in this regard, but the Arab Xians of the Middle East have been reluctant to get on board, and this guy is typical. Back in the ’70s a Catholic archbishop was even caught smuggling arms for the PLO.

    As for the loyalty oath, Israel is a Jewish state, and if you don’t like it don’t try to become a citizen. It’s like trying to become a French citizen while not recognising that France belongs to the French people, and plotting to take it away from them.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  36. Gunsel – What does all the crap you posted have to do with the Ground Zero Mosque anyhow?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  37. OK OK. Lets see who else picks up the arson story. In the meantime here’s the Jerusalem Post on the Shas nutjob Ovadia Yosef

    The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews, according to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.

    “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.

    According to Yosef, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.

    “In Israel, death has no dominion over them… With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

    This is his servant… That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,” Yosef said.

    “Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.

    That is why gentiles were created,” he added.

    Gunsel Burnstein (d80b5a)

  38. Gunsel hates him some joooooooooooos. That last comment was all but an admission that it was fabricated. Note how he just shrugged it off and moved on.

    JD (c8c1d2)

  39. OK OK. Lets see who else picks up the arson story.

    What a nasty thing to say, ‘gunsel’.

    If anyone quotes the name of the article’s source, he claimed this church burned down in June.

    You should take responsibility for the gravity of your blood libel.

    No doubt, there’s an extremist out there in any group large enough, so your assertions had very little relevance. You have absolutely nothing to add to this actual discussion about the mosque built where Islamic radicals murdered thousands of innocent Americans. Try as you might to bash Jews, they just don’t do that kind of thing.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  40. R Ovadia Yosef is hardly a nutjob. He’s one of the most proficient scholars of Jewish law in the world, and deserves some respect from the likes of you, shit-for-brains. Especially when he’s just quoting the Bible and Talmud. See Isaiah 61:5 and 49:23

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  41. Wait for the “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m just anti-Zionist” BS.

    Gunsel, which former commenter are you? You are free to say since Patterico has unbanned everyone.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  42. Col. Pat Lang links to the same article on the church, but one of his commentators links to Ma’an a Palestinian news agency[!], saying that is was most likely an accident. Follow the links yourself.

    So there may be your answer, to that story at least.
    This one is from 2007.
    And about Ovadia Yosef, there’s not much to say.

    “mosque built where Islamic radicals murdered thousands of innocent Americans.”

    There have been two mosques in the area since before 9-11, and muslims died that day too. It would have been better if Rauf had agreed early on to move the thing. He’s coming off like a self-absorbed flake. But still, he’s a Sufi and you can look up what Al Qaeda thinks of them. As (almost) always your arguments are stupid.

    Gunsel Burnstein (d80b5a)

  43. I blame the joooooosoooooos.

    JD (c8c1d2)

  44. One, a careful reading of the Qur’an notes that there are NO innocent kufar, non-believers. The concept of an innocent kufar is a pure oxymoron. Similar careful reading reveals that the only guilty Muslim is one guilty of committing a crime against a believer in Islam. But, of course, not all Muslims appear to be believers according to other Muslims. Ahmadayya Muslims are routinely killed in Pakistan by both the Shi’ite minority and the Sunni majority justified by claims that in their renunciation of violence the Ahmadis are apostates. And the penalty for apostacy is immediate death, ideally painfully, at the hands of believing Muslims. Note, also, that this is used to justify sectarian Shi’ite vs Sunni murder.

    Finally, death is one of their goals as long as it is death as a martyr. So if a Muslim dies when another is attempting to “further the interests of Islam” that Muslim is either a martyr or an unbeliever who should be killed and Allah will sort this out correctly.

    Yes, it does not make sense. It is REALLY hard to make sense out of Islam. Truth and falsehood are even fuzzy concepts because truth is situational. (With later revealed truths being considered “better than” earlier ones thus abrogating the earlier ones. But the earlier ones are still true, Allah never lies. The newer ones are just “truer”. And if you’re not confused by now you’ve had too much to drink – or is it that you need a stiff drink? Whatever.


    jdow (98e9d7)

  45. Funny how he never mentions the multiple 100,000 of Shiites that Saddam Hussein buried in mass graves.

    SGT Ted (5d10ae)

  46. “Funny how he never mentions the multiple 100,000 of Shiites…”
    You mean me? I don’t defend Saddam, but I’m sure you did once. And I haven’t ever defend the Saudis, or Mubarak, or Pahlavi, or Khomeini, Khamenei, or Ovadia Yosef. But you Milhouse, defend Yosef!! “He’s one of the most proficient scholars of Jewish law in the world, and deserves some respect from the likes of you, shit-for-brains.”

    Yosef: “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,”

    And why should I respect a bigot?

    And that’s in the JPost, Milhouse. If you like Yosef then you’re a Jewish bigot hanging out with right-wing Goyim because the one thing neither of you want is more Jews in the US. You and Avraham Stern, who tried to make a deal with the Nazis to force the Jews out of Europe. Explain Yosef to the Goyim, Milhouse.
    “Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,”

    The rest of you, who aren’t bigots, of one side or another, should read Haaretz.
    News for adults at least.

    Gunsel Burnstein (d80b5a)

  47. Good grief.

    1. Ovadia Yosef is entitled to at least as much respect as, say, the Dalai Lama. You’re not fit to speak his name, much less criticise him.

    2. Yair tried to make a deal with the Nazis to save the Jews, not to “force them out”. Do you imagine the alternative to this deal was that they would continue to live undisturbed in Europe?! The war was in progress, and the Nazis were massacring Jews; any deal that would result in the Nazis allowing them to leave would have been welcome.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

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