Patterico's Pontifications

9/11/2010

Koran Burning: Out. Flag Burning: In

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 1:56 am



The L.A. Times reports:

A Texas evangelist working with the Rev. Terry Jones on Friday gave assurances that no Qurans will be set ablaze today, even though there had been no contact with the New York City imam planning to build a mosque near the site of the 9-11 attacks.

Here’s the part I love:

The plan to burn the books sparked protests Friday in Afghanistan, where at least 11 people were injured. Police in the northern province of Badakhshan say several hundred demonstrators ran toward a NATO compound where four attackers and five police were injured in clashes. Protesters also burned an American flag at a mosque after Friday prayers. In western Farah province, police said two people were injured in another protest.

You know, the American flag is sacred to people, sort of like the Koran is.

Dafydd ab Hugh has a passionate defense of the Koran burning here. I can’t agree with his thesis, as I think the Koran burning needlessly alienates nonradical Muslims. But I agree with this response of his to the handwringing about how the Koran burning would have been responsible for deaths of our troops: “moral guilt fully belongs to those who commit actual murder in response to mere symbolism.” Nothing illustrates this point better than the above passage from the L.A. Times article.. They’re not just talking about burning our flag. They’re doing it. Are we behaving like packs of animals and going around killing people? No. Because we’re not savages. And the radical Islamists are.

As Dafydd notes: “After such a Koran burning, Moslem insurgents will attack our troops. But of course, it’s also a 100% certainty that if the burning is called off — Moslem insurgents will attack our troops. So it goes.”

I’m glad the guy’s not going to burn the books. But the murderers will murder and attack no matter what. If they can’t blame it on this, they’ll find something. They can always justify their violence.

Just like they did nine years ago today.

357 Responses to “Koran Burning: Out. Flag Burning: In”

  1. Scarcely a day goes by that these people do not kill someone somewhere, that is what they do..however, that does not mean that it is a good idea to burn Korans and upset and offend all the people who did not kill people everyday. The whole thing is an unnecessary provocation and serves no purpose other than to make some whacko preacher famous for a day or two.

    Terrye (2e6779)

  2. Plane 1 went right over my head, I could have been at a Conference on the top floors of the building, f* those pigs and schadenfreude to the hundreds of millions who consider those nut jobs lovable scoundrels.

    HeavenSent (e230a5)

  3. … and given how often flags are burned I could give two rats asses how many Qu’rans heat homes in lieu of expensive gas energy. Again, f* them.

    HeavenSent (e230a5)

  4. I’ll repost my own summary of this issue from elsewhere:
    ========================================

    The issue I have is mainly with the disconnect of:

    a) It it rather exceptionally clear that the GZM is considered offensive to a large percentage of Americans.

    b) Americans — indeed EVERYONE in the world — are all expected to tread lightly whenever there is risk of
    doing anything that is — in the ever-so-slightest way — offensive to Islamic sensitivities. Witness Theo Van
    Gogh, Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the whole “Cartoon” brouhaha, and the very most recent Koran
    burning issue.

    Sorry, I’m not accepting that disconnect unchallenged any more.

    I know there are moderate moslems. My cousin married one. But until THEY decide to police their own f***ed up members, they’re getting lumped with those f***ed up members as people I DON’T CARE ABOUT

    F*** Islam.

    F*** Allah.

    F*** the Qu’ran.

    That offends you? TOUGH SHIT.

    IgotBupkis (9eeb86)

  5. I also offer two quotes, one directly relevant to this, one secondarily so:

    A function of free speech under our system of government is to INVITE
    DISPUTE. It may indeed best serve its high purposes when it induces a
    condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are,
    or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and
    challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have
    profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea.

    – Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas –

    and

    There is no week, nor day, nor hour, when tyranny may not enter upon this
    country, if the people lose their supreme confidence in themselves – and lose
    their roughness and spirit of defiance.

    – Walt Whitman –

    The pastor is simply telling the imams to go F*** Off, in the most American of ways.

    IgotBupkis (9eeb86)

  6. “needlessly alienates nonradical Muslims” Both of them?

    gp (ba49cb)

  7. So many think offending/insulting someone is the same as killing someone. On that, I beg to differ.

    That’s why, no matter how whack that minister is, if he needs matches, I’ll spring for ’em.

    Funny how the Administration is not talking about the order they gave last year to have our troops in Afghanistan burn Bibles sent to them from some church in this country so as not to offend any muslims over there. Imagine that, Bibles are okay to torch over there by us, but god-forbid our Indonesian Imbecile gets word of a precious koran being lit up over here. In that case, the minister is acting stupidly.

    And I love the hypocricy: Precedent Fo’Shizzle says Imam @sshole has a right to build a Victory Mosque near Ground Zero, but the minister in Florida does not seem to have a right to destroy his own personal property on his own real property.

    To me, that erodes our Liberty; it is tyrannical. And we know what Jefferson rightly thought should happen to tyrants.

    RickZ (aff6f4)

  8. They do what they do and we do what we do.

    I do not want to be any part of the Florida dog molesters or the Mid East camel molesters.

    nk (db4a41)

  9. As much as I am for keeping the peace and all, I personally think Pastor Jones should have stuck to his guns on this issue. Burn one or two korans. Just to prove to these Islamo-murderers that we are not scared. What would they have done if he did burn those death-books anyway? Anything different from the atrocities they have been committing against innocent blood? Why is the world so afraid of Islam?

    No-bs! (6e616b)

  10. Well, especially on the “anything will set them off theory” there is a classic Mark Steyn column apropos to the subject. He talks about how one islamofascist was radicalized as follows:

    > What was so awful about Sayyid Qutb’s experience in America that led him to regard modernity as an abomination? Well, he went to a dance in Greeley, Colo.: “The room convulsed with the feverish music from the gramophone. Dancing naked legs filled the hall, arms draped around the waists, chests met chests, lips met lips . . .”

    > In 1949, Greeley, Colo., was dry. The dance was a church social. The feverish music was Frank Loesser’s charm songBaby, It’s Cold Outside. But it was enough to start a chain that led from Qutb to Zawahiri in Egypt to bin Laden in Saudi Arabia to the mullahs in Iran to the man arrested in Afghanistan on Sept. 11. And it’s a useful reminder of how much we could give up and still be found decadent and disgusting by the Islamists. A world without Baby, It’s Cold Outside will be very cold indeed.

    Indeed, bin Laden has said that all “Muslim lands” must be returned to Muslim rule including… Spain. Yes, he specifically said spain had to be returned to Muslims. You know that country where the mosque was built at Cordoba. Just sayin’.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  11. Congratulations America. You’ve bullied a church into not expressing itself.

    So much for not agreeing with someone’s message but defending to the death their right to express it. Now, we’ll only defend to the perceived safety of not being threatened by Islamonutjobs.

    Free speech just died a little bit.

    Nathan (22922c)

  12. Why are those who applauded the supreme court decision allowing the burning of the american flag as free speech so opposed to the burning of the koran – (cant be because of religion, atheist or agnostic that most of them are)

    Joe (6120a4)

  13. Just how does burning a Koran makes my little girl safer?

    You wanna fight Islam? Get a gun and board a ship going east.

    nk (db4a41)

  14. nk, are you blind?

    First off, you’re little girl is as safe as she’s going to be, koran burning or no. Slmost 3,000 people were murdered this day nine years ago just going to work.

    Second, I don’t have to grab a gun and take a ship going east. All I have to do is go a couple of blocks from home in Jackson Heights to the nearby mosque (which has been in the news for some not lovely things, as well as not being in the news for their harassment of gays when there is our annual Gay Pride Parade), or take a train to lower Manhattan and confront that @sshole Rauf. They are my enemy, and they are right here. I do not understand why you cannot see that.

    RickZ (aff6f4)

  15. There were a few other factors, apparently, the US supporting Israel’s right to exist, segregation that was still in effect in parts of the country,
    but that church social dance, seems to have gotten
    his goat.

    Yes the good pastor was a fool, the media lapped it up, because like our president, they regard us all that way, ‘bitterest of clingers’. My concern, was more that it cast a pall over the solemn commemoration that was occurring tosay

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  16. “Just how does burning a Koran makes my little girl safer?”

    nk – Isn’t it the government’s job to keep your little girl safe? The church is not the government and in this country at least the government is not in the business of banning free speech (unless you count speech codes at state universities and hate crime legislation and the like). You have a disconnect in your logic.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  17. I think that there is an odd psychology at work behind much of this. On the one hand, we in Western Civilization give all kinds of excuses for our enemies (like the burning of Bibles, for example, or of flags). Yet we are extremely judgmental of ourselves (opposing the Victory Mosque is anti-Muslim, defending CAIR, etc).

    Why?

    My theory is that the Left is every bit as racist as they accuse the Right. They hold the non-Western world to a different standard because….they believe the downtrodden savages can’t know any better. Not like intelligent folks like themselves.

    Today is a day that, I hope, our Muslim friends speak in low tones. After all, they should be sensitive to what happened nine years ago, right?

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  18. Pastor Jones, is much like the Fred Phelps character, that’s why he rubbed many of us, the wrong way,

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  19. “You wanna fight Islam? Get a gun and board a ship going east.”

    nk – Are you also suggesting that if I want to fight illegal immigration I should grab a gun and head to a border?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  20. Actually, I liked that Indonesian Muslim leader who said that, even if the Q’uran burning didn’t happen, the threat hurt the heart of Islam and Muslims everywhere.

    Of course, he could have said the same about what happened nine years ago today.

    But that’s different.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  21. Islam is a religion of blood shed and violent and the so called moderates are the outcasts. Remember nine years ago today. 3000 precious American lives were massacred on American soil. All in the name of Islam. And as we speak there is talk about building a mosque near the very site, as a monument of victory over the infidels. That would be you and I. Islam should be outlawed!

    No-bs! (6e616b)

  22. Radical Islam and American culture are completely incompatible. What’s amazing to me is that the inevitable conflict we are seeing now – not between soldiers, but between people – has taken nine years to develop.

    Amphipolis (e01538)

  23. It’s been there, all along, the left and even some factions of the right, (Ron Paul) take pains to obscure it

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  24. Islam is a religion of blood shed and violent and the so called moderates are the outcasts.

    I have a sense that the average non-Muslim is rather ignorant or only vaguely aware of the history of Mohammed and the way his violence and ruthlessness are interwoven in Islam and the Koran.

    Based on that, to be a moderate Muslim is analogous to being a moderate follower of Nazism or Communism.

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  25. I would not have a problem if many of the leading femisogynists in this country covered themselves in burqas.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  26. #correction @20
    “Violence” and not “violent”
    I really have to stop those late nights…

    No-bs! (6e616b)

  27. Based on that, to be a moderate Muslim is analogous to being a moderate follower of Nazism or Communism.

    Comment by Mark — 9/11/2010 @ 8:25 am

    Exactly my point. It’s either you are a Nazi or you are not. But with time even the moderates are fully absorbed. Where are the increasing number of radicals coming from? From the formerly moderates who got hit over the head and bullied into being “true Muslims”! Soon radical Islam will be unveiled for what it truly is. And it’s not peace.

    No-bs! (6e616b)

  28. “They’re not just talking about burning our flag. They’re doing it.”
    And “they” of course are 22% of the world’s population.
    And the IRA = Christians.

    Rauf: “If I knew that this would happen, that this would cause this kind of pain, I wouldn’t have done it,”

    But the neighborhood backed it. The community board backed it. The mayor backed it. Until the biggest funder of Pajamas media, and a funder of the “redemption” of Jerusalem decided to demagogue the issue on his dime, no one cared. So now I defend park 51 more than ever. Enough with radicals

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  29. Diogenes the Cynic –
    In your calculus, if:
    And the IRA = Christians
    then
    Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban and Al Qaeda = Muslims
    and
    Oppoments of GZM Mosque = Americans
    and
    Koran burners = Americans

    Correct?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  30. Over at National Review Online, Andy McCarthy continues his excellent series on Islam today.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  31. the pastor is a f*cking coward, just like the potus and every other running dog lackey who implored him to call the stunt off. essentially we as a country have given up. the foul mohammedans have won. we are like a dog who knows the other dog is stronger and more powerful, we are lying on our backs begging the mohammedans ‘please don’t hurt us again. we’ve learned our lesson.’

    we’ve turned into a nation of cowardly losers.

    fatwa eater (0a8329)

  32. The mayor backed it. Until the biggest funder of Pajamas media,

    Definitely, no question. After all, a blog that reaches around ten thousand must be that much more powerful than the MSM, that reaches tens of millions per day.

    But the neighborhood backed it.

    No, they didn’t – but their “community board” backed it over the majority’s objections. As with our esteemed members of Congress and our POTUS, they willingly went against what the majority of their constituents wanted, and are now paying the price for their condescending arrogance.

    You wanna fight Islam? Get a gun and board a ship going east

    Too late – their cells are already here and quite active, as we’ve seen with the attacks over the past few years that originated wholly within our borders. So since you’re a gun owner, when can we expect you to mount the ramparts?

    DSCSA (d61c0d)

  33. Whoops, last one was mine.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  34. Just how does burning a Koran makes my little girl safer?

    Because showing weakness invites violence, while showing a lack of fear deters it. You’re not going to deter Muslims from acting crazy by cowering in fear lest they act crazy.

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  35. And the IRA = Christians.

    If the IRA was a Christian organization which went around killing non-Christians, you’ve be very clever.

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  36. “So now I defend park 51 more than ever.”

    Feel free.

    And, I’ll feel free to continue to object to building an Islamic religious building next to a site where thousands of innocent people where murdered in cold blood by followers of Islam.

    Dave Surls (c8d730)

  37. call the park51 structure by its proper arabic name. the building is to be a rabat.

    look it up.

    fatwa eater (0a8329)

  38. From the Timeline

    Dec. 8, 2009: The Times publishes a lengthy front-page look at the Cordoba project. “We want to push back against the extremists,” Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the lead organizer, is quoted as saying. Two Jewish leaders and two city officials, including the mayor’s office, say they support the idea, as does the mother of a man killed on 9/11. An FBI spokesman says the imam has worked with the bureau. Besides a few third-tier right-wing blogs, including Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugs site, no one much notices the Times story.

    Dec. 21, 2009: Conservative media personality Laura Ingraham interviews Abdul Rauf’s wife, Daisy Khan, while guest-hosting “The O’Reilly Factor” on Fox. In hindsight, the segment is remarkable for its cordiality. “I can’t find many people who really have a problem with it,” Ingraham says of the Cordoba project, adding at the end of the interview, “I like what you’re trying to do.”

    May 6, 2010: After a unanimous vote by a New York City community board committee to approve the project, the AP runs a story. It quotes relatives of 9/11 victims (called by the reporter), who offer differing opinions. The New York Post, meanwhile, runs a story under the inaccurate headline, “Panel Approves ‘WTC’ Mosque.” Geller is less subtle, titling her post that day, “Monster Mosque Pushes Ahead in Shadow of World Trade Center Islamic Death and Destruction.” She writes on her Atlas Shrugs blog, “This is Islamic domination and expansionism. The location is no accident. Just as Al-Aqsa was built on top of the Temple in Jerusalem.” (To get an idea of where Geller is coming from, she once suggested that Malcolm X was Obama’s real father. Seriously.)

    Park51 and opponents Follow the money

    “If the IRA was a Christian organization which went around killing non-Christians, you’ve be very clever.”

    The Brits didn’t worry about Christians and non-Christians when they opposed the meetings that produced the Good Friday Agreement. The US was accused of coddling terrorists.
    But the IRA always got bucket-loads of cash from private citizens of the Good Ol’ USA.

    “And, I’ll feel free to continue to object to building an Islamic religious building next to a site where thousands of innocent people where murdered in cold blood by followers of Islam.”

    There are already two mosques in lower manhattan within block of the WTC site. They’ve been there for years, just like my favorite old strip club.
    …memories of youth.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  39. Follow the money: trying again

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  40. ^another typical non – response from our favorite Troll. Show some respect on this day or else please STFU.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  41. Isn’t it funny, Dmac, how “sensitivity” appears to be an elastic concept to folks like this?

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  42. “There are already two mosques in lower manhattan within block of the WTC site.”

    That’s nice.

    IMO, there’s no need for more Islamic buildings in the area (there’s already two too many), and I’d like to see construction of the mosque blocked.

    It’s an insult to the thousands of Americans (and foreign guests of America) who were killed by Muslim fanatics.

    Let ’em build their nasty little temple in a more appropriate spot…like Medina, for example.

    Dave Surls (c8d730)

  43. So since you’re a gun owner, when can we expect you to mount the ramparts?

    I am not at war with Islam. Neither do I enagage in empty gestures with no benefit that just cause young men to be incited to fight each other.

    If we could get those Floridian Koran burners and those Afghan flag burners all together on a desert island, now that would be something I’d support.

    nk (db4a41)

  44. OT, does the marketing for Shmaylan’s new movie seem a little insensitive

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  45. Full disclosure. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian but my brother’s wife is a Muslim. Just so you know it’s personal.

    nk (db4a41)

  46. rooted in a statistical fact: in the ranks of captured and confessed terrorists, engineers and engineering students are significantly overrepresented.

    Engineers, the basis of all terror ?

    Well, maybe not …

    Gambetta and Hertog found engineers only in right-wing groups — the ones that claim to fight for the pious past of Islamic fundamentalists or the white-supremacy America of the Aryan Nations (founder: Richard Butler, engineer) or the minimal pre-modern U.S. government that Stack and Bedell extolled. Among Communists, anarchists and other groups whose shining ideal lies in the future, the researchers found almost no engineers. Yet these organizations mastered the same technical skills as the right-wingers.

    … but of course, the Weathermen probably could have used an engineer.

    Neo (7830e6)

  47. _________________________________

    “I can’t find many people who really have a problem with it,” Ingraham says of the Cordoba project, adding at the end of the interview, “I like what you’re trying to do.”

    It’s somewhat understandable why conservatives throughout the Western World might become morally relativistic or pro-touchy-feely about Islam — as the left does constantly and repeatedly (Hi, Mayor Bloomberg!) — since various aspects of that religion can be considered of a rightist bent. But when common sense prevails, people like Ingraham tend to come to grip with reality. By contrast, so much of the left remains as ass-backwards as ever.

    I do admit that a sarcastic type of smile forms on my face when I observe the “useful idiots” of, for example, Europe (generally all of the left) becoming patsies for the growing influence of ultra-rightist Islamism in the Western World as it’s being nurtured by leftist political correctness. Liberals in such an instance remind me of various Jews in 1930s Germany — or the anti-war America-First leftists in FDR’s United States — who kept rationalizing away the meaning and intent of Hitler and his Third Reich.

    huffingtonpost.com, 8-26-10

    Laura Ingraham continued her about-face on the proposed Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero Wednesday night while guest-hosting “The O’Reilly Factor” on Fox News.

    Ingraham, who said “I like what you’re trying to do” to a co-founder of the proposed Park51 center in December (on Fox News nonetheless), led off the “Factor” with a “Talking Points Memo” about religious freedom and hypocrisy among the elites.

    Ingraham’s main point? That elites in America only honor the religious freedom of Muslims or other minority groups at the expense of the majority of Americans.

    “Why for so many elites does the obligation of religious tolerance and sensitivity cut only one way?” she asked. “They’re so obsessed about appearing tolerant towards Islam that they end up offending the majority of Americans who come from the Judeo-Christian tradition.”

    Ingraham argued that “the double standard is everywhere,” saying that New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg — who’s come out in favor of Park51 — “equivocated when asked about whether he supported lighting the Empire State Building in honor of Mother Teresa’s 100th birthday.”

    At the time, Bloomberg urged the building to “listen to the public” in deciding whether it was appropriate.

    “If only he were this solicitous on the mosque question,” Ingraham said.

    “Religious tolerance is a cherished American value,” she concluded. “But public officials need to understand that religious tolerance is a two-way street. Muslims in New York and beyond need to demonstrate their own sensitivity by moving this mosque.”

    Mark (411533)

  48. “Because showing weakness invites violence, while showing a lack of fear deters it. You’re not going to deter Muslims from acting crazy by cowering in fear lest they act crazy.”

    – Subotai

    How does respect for others’ religion show weakness? How does adherence to your principles show weakness?

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  49. “Respect” might be too strong a word, actually. “Tolerance”, perhaps – but the second question is the important one, anyway.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  50. But he made sure to make it available for the 60th
    anniversary of Mao’s rise to power, Pol Pot’s 40th
    is coming up in a few years, get all the paperwork ready

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  51. Delude the Clueless scrawled:
    And “they” of course are 22% of the world’s population.
    — And the point of citing that statistic is What?

    And the IRA = Christians.
    — I thought that the IRA = Catholics. Make up your friggin’ mind!

    But the neighborhood backed it. The community board backed it. The mayor backed it.
    — And that is their right, but they were wrong to do so.

    Until the biggest funder of Pajamas media, and a funder of the “redemption” of Jerusalem decided to demagogue the issue on his dime, no one cared.
    — What does “until” mean? Have ANY of those you mentioned above backed off of their support? No? Then there is no “until”. Oh, and surprise! surprise! it was going along fine until the evil Joos got ahold of the issue. Pathetic.

    So now I defend park 51 more than ever. Enough with radicals
    — Agreed. Buh-bye.

    Icy Texan (ae08fe)

  52. “I am not at war with Islam.” – Neither am I, I just have not found parts I trust.

    “Just so you know it’s personal.”

    nk – You’ve mentioned this before. Anything can be made personal if you decide to receive it that way, much like your offensive comments about the supporters of Arizona’s immigration law. The internet is not a good place for selective personal outrage, IMHO.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  53. I often wonder how often people’s attitudes on certain groups — say, Muslims and gays — are influenced by whether they know AND LIKE someone from the group they are criticizing.

    Patterico (97b4f6)

  54. – I thought that the IRA = Catholics. Make up your friggin’ mind!

    And even then, the analogy doesn’t hold. The IRA was mainly a political movement, not a religious one.

    I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another about the mosque’s location, as long as it’s not affiliated with or funded by terrorists or their enablers.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  55. fire is pretty

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  56. “fire is pretty”

    Mr. Feets – You know what makes a pretty fire is when you put in pine cones coated in that sparkly crystal stuff. KFC or Peugot fires, not so much.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  57. I think it’s good for people who are making generalizations about groups of people on the Internet to remember that they are often speaking to people who like or love people in those groups.

    Patterico (97b4f6)

  58. Do you know the famous joke?

    A guy walking through Belfast late at night, suddenly feels a gun in his back.

    “Be ye Catholic or Protestant?,” whispered a voice.

    Not knowing whom he faced, the fellow thought fast.

    “Neither,” he replied. “I’m Jewish!”

    A pause, then: “Aye, And I’m the luckiest Muslim in all of Eire!”

    Eric Blair (f89659)

  59. Islam is an imperial religion. Ever since the Arab Muslims boiled out of Mecca and Medina in the seventh century, enslaving the “peoples of the book” and slaughtering everyone else, it has tolerated no competition. Whenever Muslims conquered a site holy to any other faith, whether it was the Jewish Temple or Hagia Sofia, they either rebuilt it as a Mosque or tore it down and built a Mosque in its place. They then claim that these are among the holiest sites in Islam and will never permit even a hovel of a Church or Synagogue in its shadow. No other faith is allowed to practice in all of the Saudi empire and Bibles and Torahs are regularly destroyed if found.

    It is for these reasons that I am utterly indifferent to burning Korans and totally opposed to a Mosque near ground zero. I do not hate individual Muslims any more that I would have hated members of the Wehrmacht or of the Imperial Japanese forces had I been alive seventy years ago. But I know the potential for destruction that their driving philosophy holds, even if each one is less than totally dedicated to it. I did not hate the Russian or Chinese people during the cold war, but I knew that almost every one of them would be used by their leaders to attack everything I hold dear.

    Just as German does not equal Nazi or Russian does not equal Communist, Muslim does not equal Islamist. But under any tyranny the people are the servants of the fanatics. Any Muslim actively opposing Islamism risks torture and death as much any any Chinese opponent of Mao. And since Islamic law and tradition supports that threat I can see no reason that it will change any time soon.

    Ken Hahn (25ed26)

  60. I am not at war with Islam.

    I ask you to remember Orwell’s famous line – you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. No one in this country was at war with Islam previously, nor are they at present. We’re at war with those who kill wanton innocents in the guise of Islam, and you nor I don’t have a choice in the matter, until they stop attempting to kill us 24/7. Your statement about your daughter is understandable, but those in the WTC towers had children as well – and they didn’t deserve to be massacred. My wife has flown for American for over 20 years, but not once do I think (nor does she) that burning a piece of a religious text somehow exposes her to increased danger. They’ve already made numerous attempts to bomb one of their planes out of the sky since 9/11, and they’ll keep trying no matter what some lone nutbag decides to do with his matchsticks. It doesn’t matter one whit whether or not this happens, they’re going to continue to try everything in their power to kill all of us, no matter what we do or say about their religion. It’s their MO and their entire reason for being – that’s what murderous fanatics are all about, and there’s nowhere to hide anymore.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  61. BTW, my neighbor of many years in Persian, we’re friends, and he knows exactly what I’m talking about. To make any other kind of moral relativism regarding Islam as some kind of religion that must be handled with kid gloves (or else!) is to insult the millions of Muslims worldwide who don’t feel this way, and it also infantilizes them to a degree that degrades their cultures.

    Or to put it another way, wake me up the next time a bunch of Christian fanatics massacres thousands of US citizens because of Piss Christ.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  62. Which is, Dmac, I think that Muslims who speak out against terrorism—without weaseling with the word “but”—need to be front and center.

    Eric Blair (d9926c)

  63. Ken

    Actually, there are Jews actively worshipping and praying in almost every Arab country and in fact the largest Jewish community outside of
    Israel its not in New York, its not in Los Angeles

    Its in Tehran

    The last estimate is over 100,000 active in the heart of the city

    In crazed Yemen, where they are gutting Saudi Women and Children in raids across the border, 3 yemeni men were sentenced to death for killing a jewish boy – who is a Yemeni.

    The oldest church in christianity is not in Istandbul or Rome, its in Cairo. The Second oldest church is in Qom, Iran.

    The Following Arab countries are allowing churches, cathedrals to be built – Qatar, The UAE, Oman, Kuwait and rumor has it a massive Catholic cathederal (ministered by the Philippines) is opening sometime next year by the King Himself in Saudi.

    The tolerance grows daily the divide is being closed, in a few decades Israel will have embassys in all the Arab countries and the last crys of despots will be silenced by the ever changing fortunes of the common street arab families as they have gone from being uneducated destitutes to being informed and wealthy.

    I see it everyday

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  64. I think that Muslims who speak out against terrorism—without weaseling with the word “but”—need to be front and center.

    Yes, but who and when will all these millions of “moderate” Muslims stand up and be counted? I’m still waiting, and it’s been almost ten years. TEN YEARS. And yet we’re endlessly lectured to about how Islam’s a religion of peace? Fine – let’s see some of that peace, and it begins with thousands of flat condemnations by Muslim leaders across the world of any and all acts of violence against non – Muslims, period. BTW, when will we see thousands of fatwas issued against those who perpetrate such evil in the name of Islam? Money talks, bullsh-t walks.

    (crickets chirping)

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  65. Guys, I can take you from Albania to Kosovo to Bosnia to Kurdistan to Chechnya to show you Muslims who are as much victims of radical Wahabism as we are. But their holy book is still the Koran.

    It makes as much sense to burn Korans because of Al Qaeda as it does to burn Bibles because of Cromwell (and what he did in Ireland).

    nk (db4a41)

  66. the largest Jewish community outside of
    Israel its not in New York, its not in Los Angeles
    Its in Tehran
    The last estimate is over 100,000 active in the heart of the city

    — Gee, EPWJ, I don’t want to quibble; BUT, since all of the stats I can find say that there are somewhere between 25,000-40,000 Jews in the entire country of Iran, care to provide some proof of what you’re saying?

    Icy Texan (ae08fe)

  67. Actually, Dmac, the fellow simply needs to go preach from the New Testament in Mecca. Since it is all about tolerance.

    Eric Blair (20facf)

  68. More jews in iran than any country in the mideast outside of israel. Our friend the saudis don’t allow any jews or christians in the country.

    The sunni majority are also very anti shiite. Al qaeda kills shites and sufis too. Rauf is a sufi. They’re the hippies of islam.

    And as far as terror is concerned ty asking an israeli to condemn shamir or begin. Or the irgun the first terrorists of the middle east

    john smithee (0d4ae3)

  69. From Dafydd ab Hugh’s linked post.

    Do we not finally comprehend, at some point in this crisis, that Moslem “outrage” is a calculated political tactic deliberately ginned up by Moslem leaders to pressure the West to make concession after concession? It is a form of Dawa, “soft jihad,” playing upon our liberal guilt and conservative principles to gain for radical Islamism much of what they demand, without the radicals having to confront real armies that can actually obliterate them. When that revelation finally sinks in throughout the American people and their counterparts in the rest of the West, we shall abruptly find the bottom of our “sensitivity” to Moslems’ perpeturally [sic] wounded feelings.

    We’re being pwn3d. Again. Our own guilt and sensibilities conspire against us, making us pliable easy targets to a savvy enemy. Why the need for force when manipulating a habitual cultural mea culpa does the job much more neatly?

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  70. “rumor has it a massive Catholic cathederal (ministered by the Philippines) is opening sometime next year by the King Himself in Saudi.”

    EricPW – If the rumor had any truth to it there should be some pictures available by now, shouldn’t there?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  71. “Guys, I can take you from Albania to Kosovo to Bosnia to Kurdistan to Chechnya to show you Muslims who are as much victims of radical Wahabism as we are. But their holy book is still the Koran.”

    nk – Great, we’ve seen them kill their co-religionists in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. Is that supposed to an extra bonus selling point about how it is a religion of peace?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  72. Right, thats to replace they wanted to burn down in Jolo, after Ramadan, according to the bishop there.
    Any Moslem that doesn’t follow their rules is in
    a state of dhaliyah, ignorance before Mohammed and is dealt with accordingly, that’s what the tribesmen
    of Anbar found out after pushing the Americans out
    of Ramadi, Fallujah

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  73. You know, the American flag is sacred to people, sort of like the Koran is.

    You mean the US flag was the product of divine revelation?

    Because showing weakness invites violence, while showing a lack of fear deters it.

    You don’t seem to get the real point.
    Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.
    Allowing it to go ahead is showing strength–the strength of knowing you are better than them, the strength of putting one’s principles into action.

    (returned, temper hopefully in check, and in the spirit of the holy days, apologies to anyone I offended)

    kishnevi (391c85)

  74. I totally agree with Dafyd A. H’s defense of the burning. We have had enough. This is also what Pat Cadell calls the pre-revolutionary moment we are in. Our ruling class won’t listen, so we will make them.

    Chris Christie (358f54)

  75. Actually it doesn’t really matter how America responds: To the extremists, there is only one response that exists – death to America. So what have we got to lose by finding our collective backbone, remembering we are not France, and saying no?

    KABUL, Afghanistan —
    Shouts of “Death to America!” rang out as Afghan demonstrators Saturday denounced now-suspended plans by an American pastor to burn copies of the Muslim holy book, the Koran. More than 10,000 people took part in a protest in Loga.

    Similar demonstrations took place a day earlier in several locations around Afghanistan, despite the calling off of plans by a Florida church group to commemorate the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks with Koran-burning.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  76. You don’t seem to get the real point.
    Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.

    Right, just like opposing communism was “demonstrating fear”. (Liberals actually did say things like this back then)


    Allowing it to go ahead is showing strength–the strength of knowing you are better than them, the strength of putting one’s principles into action.

    I have no principle which says that I must welcome Muslims into our midst.

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  77. Islam does not mean peace, it means submission. But some Muslims submit less than others. If some camel jockey tried to put my sister in law in a burkha, he’d be singing soprano.

    I don’t burn Bibles because Germany was a Christian country in WWII. It would be a pointless gesture, anyway. Like I said before, “Wanna fight Al Qaeda? Get yourself a gun and transportation to the Middle East”.

    It is a sign of weakness to just climb up on a fence and spit on people and call them names.

    Got balls? Come down and fight.

    nk (db4a41)

  78. You mean the US flag was the product of divine revelation?

    This assumes the Koran is. And that requires as much assumption be made to believe the American flag is not (the product of divine revelation).

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  79. Happy New Year, kishnevi.

    nk (db4a41)

  80. It makes as much sense to burn Korans because of Al Qaeda as it does to burn Bibles because of Cromwell (and what he did in Ireland).

    This sort of nonsense does not get smarter with the retelling.

    Both Cromwell and the Irish worshiped the same God and read the same Bible. If you feel the need to make a historical analogy, you can draw one to the Crusades or the Muslim invasion of Europe. Or to the conflict between Jews and Muslims today. But likening conflicts within a religion to ones between them is simply incoherent.

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  81. I don’t burn Bibles because Germany was a Christian country in WWII.

    But you do demand that America welcome Muslims within in its borders because Germany was a Christian country in WWII. And that makes a heck of a lot less sense.

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  82. It is a sign of weakness to just climb up on a fence and spit on people and call them names.

    Well, that’s the way those goyim are, right?

    Subotai (24ebc4)

  83. Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.

    Oh, for the love of…some things are wrong, no matter how much someone tries to twist themselves into linguistic pretzels in order to justify it.

    Got balls? Come down and fight.

    This from the man who’s frightened that burning a single page from a religious text is going to put his daughter in extreme danger. WTF?

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  84. I don’t think it is utterly Pollyanna-ish to feel that this all would have been so much better if, when the GZ mosque situation started to heat up, Obama had simply said in public to the mosque leaders: “You know, in America we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. No one disputes that, and we revere those rights. But, building the mosque right there, right now, is probably not the best idea, because so many of our fellow Americans oppose it for a variety of reasons, and it may foster unnecessary and exceptional divisiveness at a time when we as a nation can ill afford it. For that reason I wish you would not do it. Thank you.”

    Then, when the Koran burning came up he could have said publicly to the Florida pastor and others: “As I have stressed before, in fact just several weeks ago, in America we have freedom of religion and freedom of speech. No one disputes that, and we revere those rights. But burning the Koran, the holy book of another religion, is probably not the best idea at this time because many of our fellow Americans find any book burning to be abhorrent, and therefore such a public action may cause unnecessary and exceptional divisiveness in our country at a time we can ill afford it. For that reason I wish you would not do it. Thank you.”

    For reals, can’t you hear President Reagan saying something like this? I can. And probably working a “do unto others” theme in there some how, as well.

    elissa (fb0486)

  85. I would be hardpressed to encourage someone to burn a Koran if it endangered our troops, and I think it would, but I completely agree with Patterico that we should never forget the people at fault are the killers, not the book-burners. Today is an appropriate day to think about things we should Never Forget.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  86. Elissa, I cannot see POTUS making the first statement. He has done the limbo for despots worldwide.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  87. This from the man who’s frightened that burning a single page from a religious text is going to put his daughter in extreme danger. WTF?

    I said no such thing. I said Koran burning is meaningless and pointless — some sissy-pants sitting on a fence, spitting on people and calling them names, instead of actually fighting them.

    nk (db4a41)

  88. “The world community” trained its sights on a Christian pastor whose congegregation is minimal at best. The “small percentage” of illiterate, fanatical muslims who riot and kill at even the slightest provocation are not a concern, apparently for liberals. We Americans will be fine as long as we refrain from treating muslims the way muslims treat non-muslims- by keeping our mouths shut. Freedom of speech is no big deal.

    mhr (301079)

  89. “You know, the American flag is sacred to people, sort of like the Koran is.”

    That’s kind of weird that people would hold a flag as sacred, as like a holy book. But then again, i’m not that religious.

    imdw (2020d4)

  90. It was a stupid gesture, we’ve all stipulated to that, this is what it is really like in practice;

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39118941/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  91. Heh, Eric, agree with you. His history shows that Obama would never deign to make that type of salving statement for the good of the nation. Just trying to point out that another–better president would never have allowed this thing to get so out of hand. His ” a sorry band of men carried out the attacks” comment at the pentagon memorial today says it all, and tells us all we really need to know about this POTUS.

    elissa (fb0486)

  92. Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.

    And yet Rauf Feisel himself uses a “fear” tactic as he attempts to manipulate the stiuation. Perhaps that should be addressed.

    As I just mentioned, our national security now hinges on how we negotiate this, how we speak about it, and what we do. It is important for us now to raise the bar on our conversation–

    O’BRIEN: What’s the risk? When you say “national security,” what’s the risk?

    RAUF: As I mentioned, because if we move, that means the radicals have shaped the discourse. The radicals will shape the discourse on both sides. And those of us who are moderates on both sides — you see Soledad, the battle front is not between Muslims and non-Muslims. The real battle front is between moderates on all sides of all the faith traditions and the radicals on all sides. The radicals actually feed off each other. And in some kind of existential way, need each other. And the more that the radicals are able to control the discourse on one side, it strengthens the radicals on the other side and vice versa. We have to turn this around.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  93. The irony is …

    A ranking Saudi diplomat told NBC News that he has asked for political asylum in the United States, saying he fears for his life if he is forced to return to his native country.

    The diplomat, Ali Ahmad Asseri, the first secretary of the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles, has informed U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials that Saudi officials have refused to renew his diplomatic passport and effectively terminated his job after discovering he was gay and was close friends with a Jewish woman.

    In a recent letter that he posted on a Saudi website, Asseri angrily criticized his country’s “backwardness” as well as the role of “militant imams” in Saudi society who have “defaced the tolerance of Islam.” Perhaps most provocatively of all, he has threatened to expose what he describes as politically embarrassing information about members of the Saudi royal family living in luxury in the U.S.

    … unbelievable.

    I wonder if Obama was talking about a “group of manly men in a manly way.”

    Obama should send him back so the Saudis can show us those “values of diversity and tolerance” he talked about today.

    Neo (7830e6)

  94. ^how dare you apply the Left’s politically correct stances to a Muslim, Dana.

    I said Koran burning is meaningless and pointless — some sissy-pants sitting on a fence, spitting on people and calling them names, instead of actually fighting them.

    I misunderstood your earlier statement – my bad.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  95. I have to agree with this guy. Bin Laden is laughing somewhere.

    Ground Zero Koran Burning

    Patricia (358f54)

  96. The diplomat, Ali Ahmad Asseri, the first secretary of the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles, has informed U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials that Saudi officials have refused to renew his diplomatic passport and effectively terminated his job after discovering he was gay and was close friends with a Jewish woman.

    In addition to planeloads of Ukranian hookers flying into Saudi Arabia, there are planeloads of teenaged boys, or younger, provided for the amusement of the Saudis who are threatening this guy. I believe him. The Saudis have a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy too but the penalty is a little different.

    The Muslims practice child abuse by routinely “marrying” little girls to elderly men who probably can’t get it up with anyone over 14. It is a disgusting culture which has not produced an intellectual advance since 1400.

    Mike K (11fb04)

  97. NK @ 79: Thank you.
    Subotai seems to have gotten us mixed up, btw.

    Dana @78: Muslims believe the Koran is the product of divine revelation. You may view, with good reason, as a symbol of Islam, but they don’t. No person I know of believes the American flag to be the product of divine revelation, or even divine inspiration–that is, produced by the same process that produced the Bible. Therefore Koran burning and US Flag burning are not equivalent.
    The equivalent of Koran burning would be to burn the Bible, not the flag.

    Dana @91:
    I read that the very opposite way you do. I don’t see Rauf stoking up our fear. He’s pointing out the fact that
    1)the jihadis main argument is that Americans hate Islam
    2)the majority of Muslims start off from a position that does not agree with the jihadis, but then
    3) they see the anti-mosque agitation and the pastor threatening to burn Korans, and begin to think that perhaps the jihadis are right.

    We are all agreed (except, I suppose Eric Johnson and Diogenes) that the jihadis will use any excuse to kill: to try to persuade them to anything is a wasted effort. It’s the mass of Muslims who are not jihadis–who don’t think that killing and conquering infidels is a prime goal of Islam–that I’m concerned about. Show them that America is not the mortal enemy of Islam; show them that America actually believes in the rule of law, individual rights, etc.–and the jihadi problem will wither away.

    We seem in general, however, to be acting in the very reverse way.

    kishnevi (6c49d9)

  98. Laura Bush and MIchelle Obama appearing together in Shanksville was today’s grace note. Both displayed admirable warmth and eloquence.

    angeleno (7195fb)

  99. Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.
    What the crap kind of talk is that?!
    It’s like saying opposing the man trying to take your land is demonstrating fear. Or opposing the guy trying to rob your house is demonstrating fear…. Why don’t we just roll over and let them take over the country as an act of bravery and strength. After all, succumbing to terrorism is not fear but true courage…
    Stupid!

    No-bs! (6e616b)

  100. Honestly, kish, not for the first time, it’s like you’ve ignored the whole discussion, the more incendiary parts of the Koran, Surahs 5;33 among most passages override the latter ones by the process of abrogation, It is that authority thatthey use to justify the acts of Hamas, AQ et al,The foundations that this Imam belong to like Perdana, have explicitly snti Semitic figures like Malathir Mohammed, who has cast doubt on who actually carried out the attacks, they funded the IHH which was behind the flotilla, the general contractor, was part of the Golden Chain that financed AQ in the early years

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  101. “…The equivalent of Koran burning would be to burn the Bible, not the flag….”

    Okay, fair enough. We’ll ignore the cries about “being sensitive to other cultures” for a moment and use your definition.

    But…

    http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-virginia-beach/where-was-hillary-s-outrage-when-muslims-were-burning-bibles

    That is the Hamas, by the way, that Rauf is so loathe to criticize.

    Sensitivity, friends. Sensitivity.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  102. @ kishnevi,

    Therefore Koran burning and US Flag burning are not equivalent. The equivalent of Koran burning would be to burn the Bible, not the flag.

    Yes, typically it would be. However it was you who responded with “You mean the US flag was the product of divine revelation?” to this,

    You know, the American flag is sacred to people, sort of like the Koran is.

    You were the one who brought divine revelation into the commenter’s comparison of the sacredness of the American flag people and the Koran.

    Aside from that, there are certainly many Americans in the mainstream that do indeed believe divine inspiration resulted in the American flag and all that she symbolizes and represents.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  103. I think one of the distinctions is that there ia a Koranic verse on the Saudi flag,

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  104. I read that the very opposite way you do. I don’t see Rauf stoking up our fear.

    I see Rauf as manipulatively using fear to get his way. That makes it even more distasteful. It’s interesting you see it as the opposite.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  105. _________________________________________

    His history shows that Obama would never deign to make that type of salving statement for the good of the nation. Comment by elissa — 9/11/2010 @ 4:44 pm

    What really irks the hell out of me is that liberals like him, at the same time, generally are guilty of this type of two-faced behavior:

    [Laura] Ingraham argued that “the double standard is everywhere,” saying that New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg — who’s come out in favor of Park51 — “equivocated when asked about whether he supported lighting the Empire State Building in honor of Mother Teresa’s 100th birthday.”

    At the time, Bloomberg urged the building to “listen to the public” in deciding whether it was appropriate.

    “If only he were this solicitous on the mosque question,” Ingraham said.

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  106. He’s pointing out the fact that
    1)the jihadis main argument is that Americans hate Islam

    But, the jihadis main argument isn’t that Americans hate Islam, it’s that we are infidels and refuse to submit – hence their drive to kill us.

    2)the majority of Muslims start off from a position that does not agree with the jihadis,
    but then

    3) they see the anti-mosque agitation and the pastor threatening to burn Korans, and begin to think that perhaps the jihadis are right.

    This assumes the average Muslim is for the mosque being built at GZ, and frankly, I’m hearing more and more say they are indeed against the location of the mosque, (this includes the imam who talked Terry Jones out of burning the koran). I also work with a devout Muslim who believes that while there is clearly the right to build it, it would not be the prudent thing to do.

    I’m not willing to assume the average Muslim is so easily manipulated and led astray.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  107. Eric,

    I do not see it. I see Copts killed in Egypt while the authorities look on. I see Christians prosecuted in Pakistan for blasphemy against Islam. I see medical missionaries killed in Afghanistan because they might show Christianity in a good light. I see war everywhere Islam borders on any other faith, whether in the Philippines, India/Pakistan, Sudan or Nigeria. I see Hindus, Buddhists, Animists and Bahais attacked and killed and their holy sites desecrated by Muslims. I see a religion that lacks any tolerance whatsoever demanding that its practices be tolerated by every other religion and society in the world.

    Two quibbles with your reply. I don’t believe there are 100, 000 Jews left in Iran, let alone in Teheran. Can you point me to a source for your numbers? Second, I’m willing to bet you any amount that the Saudi King won’t open any churches in a country where even Christmas cards are illegal. The Sauds might be somewhat inclined to be tolerant but the populace isn’t and the Sauds know that they would spark a serious revolt by allowing any non-Islamic material into the country, let alone build a church.

    The followers of Islam have not changed their view of other faiths for almost 1400 years. Why would they now?

    Ken Hahn (25ed26)

  108. Ken,
    Reports about a Catholic church in Saudi Arabia have been around since at least 2008. Nothing has been announced. As far as I can tell, this is just a wish of the Pope. The Saudis have not reciprocated.

    From what I can tell, EPWJ’s population estimate for Jews in Iran is grossly inflated. 25,000 or so is more like it. The 100,000 number appears to be the Jewish population of Iran in 1948, when Israel was established.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  109. BBJF

    Not my etimate the last known reliable census was in 1977 at about 79,000

    very few left IRan – one because they couldnt and two because they have lived surrounded by Iranians for centuries

    est today that their population may well exceed 100,000

    And there are curches unofficially in Saudi Arabia in WEstern Compounds – have been there for years – you are allowed personal religious items – you just cannot bring in crates of Bibles for ditribution

    Some areas of Saudi are stricter than others – it may surprise people but Saudi is not really a kingom nor a country – its a loose collection of tribes kind of like the UAE – tribal law still prevails

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  110. Ken Coptic christians some say may actually comprise a 15 to 20% not the 6 or 8% as officially reported

    Having been to Egypt many times and working with Egyptians for decades I cannot argue with the estimates that the christian population could be much larger than reported

    The Syrias and Lebanese are growing tired of the constant conflict – as some have reported here the Hama gangs in Lebanon are getting stones and bricks thrown at them and they no longer just drive around in the streets

    Commerce cures all ills – the Arab world is exploding in GDP just like the Eastern Europe Countries – they just started later but in 10 years this will all but dissappear – the remaining strongholds will be remote regions of Central Asia like northern Afghanistan, Pakistan

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  111. EPWJ

    very few left IRan – one because they couldnt and two because they have lived surrounded by Iranians for centuries

    The Iranian Jewish exodus post-revolution was considerable, especially to the United States. A large number of them settled in the Los Angeles area.

    est today that their population may well exceed 100,000

    Since your estimate is based on an inaccurate understanding of emigration, you should withdraw it.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  112. Dana–whether American Muslims think the “mosque” should be built or not is immaterial to my point. For one thing, I had in mind the worldwide Muslim community. For another, the relevant matter is not whether the “mosque” be built, but the American reaction to it. So when they see widespread opposition–when they hear about Americans who insist (sometimes sincerely but wrongly, sometimes not caring whether they are right or wrong) that the core of Islam is hate, kill and rape–they start to turn away from us and towards AlQaeda.

    kishnevi (127d58)

  113. It’s a joint venture between the tribes of the Hasa, Asir, the Nejd and the Sauds, the former is generally more devout than the latter. The last is where the Ilkwan has emerged, typified by not exclusive to the likes of Wahhab

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  114. BBJF

    That article has no accuracy

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  115. EPJW
    That article has no accuracy

    How do you know that?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  116. BBJF

    Remember, If an Arab country have 1,000 jews – they usually dont count

    Women

    Children under 14

    and they have a prediliction to lie alot

    epecially anything that pertains to the jews

    The University here estimates in a Doha Rounds talk that the number is way over 100,000 and at one time was much higher.

    Its a point of contention because the Emir is trying to force the Arab world to finally sit down and recognise Israel and the Palestinians

    Admiting that Jews live in all their countries and in great numbers is a start

    Syria and Jordan dont report any jews openly

    That is not true

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  117. About church building in Saudi Arabia–this is over two years old, but seems to have all the pertinent details about how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Arabian peninsula

    http://www.culturalcatholic.com/CatholicArabia.htm

    kishnevi (127d58)

  118. It would be a near-miracle if this message of Gaza’s hardship ever reaches the Pontiff. Ever since Islamic militants Hamas seized control of Gaza in summer 2007, Israel has barred the exit of all Palestinians except those who need life-saving medical treatment. Security has tightened even more since Israel’s 22-day military assault on Gaza, which ended in January. The Vatican and the Latin Church in the Holy Land are also pleading with Israeli authorities to make a goodwill concession and allow Gaza’s Christians to see the Pope. Says Father George, who officiates mass at the Cinema Club: “All they want is 24 hours of freedom to see the Holy Father.”
    To be a Christian in Gaza these days requires discretion. When I approached a group of Christians lunching in a beachside hotel — they were identifiable because the women did not wear Islamic headscarves — they insisted that Hamas is tolerant of their faith. But one man grabbed my sleeve and pulled me aside. “We can’t talk openly. Hamas leave us alone. But there are many [Gazans] who are more fanatical, and they hate us,” he said.

    Lets see… Hamas won an election… Israel and the US (and Fatah) launched a coup against them…
    Hamas offered a truce if Israel accepted a return to ’67 borders…
    Israel refused… israel keeps building settlements… settlements have consequences… and I’m supposed to defend Israel.
    I’m with Gerry Adams.

    And the Saudis are scum. No Jews, no Christians allowed. But the US loves them Rauf is a Sufi; an apostate in the eyes of Wahhabi Islam. But he’s backed by the Saudi who co-owns Fox News with Murdoch. It’s all a game for Murdoch. Fascism is a game for him. Geert Wilders was the lead speaker today against the Cordoba initiative. Another fascist.

    “The Pew poll found that Americans’ views on whether Islam is more likely than other faiths to encourage violence — a question Pew first asked after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks — have fluctuated dramatically.
    In the Gallup poll, respondents who said they feel “a great deal” of prejudice toward Jews are very likely to report feeling the same level of bias toward Muslims.”

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  119. The University here estimates in a Doha Rounds talk that the number is way over 100,000 and at one time was much higher.

    So one university says so, according to you. Link please.

    You should also admit you were wrong about the scale of Jewish emigration from Iran, post-revolution. It’s reported in numerous sources, and I’ve seen it myself from my own visits to Beverly Hills as far back as the mid-80s.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  120. and the condition of Jews in Iran
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

    not nearly the numbers or conditions Mr. Johnson claims

    or check the Wikipedia article “Persian Jews”.

    kishnevi (b40a74)

  121. So when we hear sermons from Al Azhar like Al Bayoumi, or from Al Sudayyis in Riyadh, what are we supposed to think, they are just a small faction,
    I’ll give you, that so much blatant denial about the nature of radical Islam has occasioned contempt
    in some, how can it not,

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  122. Hamas offered a truce if Israel accepted a return to ‘67 borders…

    “A truce.” Not peace.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  123. BBJF

    Would it convince you otherwise

    no

    You are going to believe what you want to believe and I am going to believe what I want to believe

    You – and many/most here have no contact nor even basic umderstanding of the complexities of the Arab world and will believe what you want to believe

    Just that the news that JEws and Christians live and worship in the Arab world does strike at the core of the comfortable mindset that they are too different and intolerant but in fact that is patently not true

    BBJF the reports of Iranian jews leaving the country – there is some truth to it – but what you are not hearing is that they are and have been also moving BACK!

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  124. Brother Bradley–
    I see you were posting while I was checking links and posting them myself. Thank you for making me redundant 🙂

    kishnevi (b40a74)

  125. BBJF

    Hamas has a shelf life – their leaders are being called to Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and its not for pats on the head

    Their hold on power is the promise of prosperity

    Arabs especially Palestinians are not very patient – Hamas -will assume room temp in the next few years as more and more moderate Arabs are speaking up and gaining power – if anything the negotiations by Israel ave greatly prolonging their existence – soon the Israeli’s will stop

    And then it will be over

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  126. EPWJ
    Would it convince you otherwise
    It would convince me you actually had sources, instead of just your assertion.

    BBJF the reports of Iranian jews leaving the country – there is some truth to it – but what you are not hearing is that they are and have been also moving BACK!
    Changing your story doesn’t inspire confidence in your accuracy.

    Just that the news that JEws and Christians live and worship in the Arab world does strike at the core of the comfortable mindset that they are too different and intolerant but in fact that is patently not true
    Not news to me. Jews and Christians are permitted to worship in most part of the Arab world, but only as second-class citizens. The Egyptian Copts are a good example.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  127. EPWJ, you’ve been asked for two links, and given none…..

    Thanks for playing….

    reff (176333)

  128. # 6

    “needlessly alienates nonradical Muslims” Both of them?

    Comment by gp — 9/11/2010 @ 5:03 am

    Oh I don’t think both of them.

    paper tiger (8c1ae1)

  129. “You should also admit you were wrong about the scale of Jewish emigration from Iran, post-revolution.”

    Don’t even waste your time arguing.

    The guy is totally clueless.

    Dave Surls (f0af93)

  130. Don’t just insult, please.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  131. Bradley

    The number of Jews is Highly controversial

    In 1948 one source claims 100,000 jews in Iran (mainly Tehran)

    30 years later that population would have almost doubled to 200,000 – if 150,000 fled then 30 years later the remaining 50,000 would have grown cloe to the 100,000 that this professor claimed when he questioned the panel of Jewish and Rab leaders and freedom of religion

    Also in 2009 Jews in Iran were given two seats (one maybe shared with Zorastians) in their House of Representatives according to the department of state, and 3 were given to christians (I believe the elective body is 290 members)

    We are talking about IRan here…

    Right now Jews and Christians officially make up 2% of the population but some estimates are much higher

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  132. Sorry for the quick post driving my youngest to volleyball

    Reff,

    my point is – I’ve been down this road before – links – sources – whatever – anyone anywhere can find a contrarian source – it really just comes down to – why am I believing what I believe – is it from a sense of anger, of freedom, of fear, or is it a emotioness reflection that there are shades of gray and depth to black and white assertions

    Hey I was shocked when I learned there were Jews in Iran, totally floored

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  133. “The number of Jews is Highly controversial”

    EricPW – You might have more credibility if you started at the above point rather than a 60 year old estimate that you had to walk back from. Just a thought.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  134. Second, I’m willing to bet you any amount that the Saudi King won’t open any churches in a country where even Christmas cards are illegal.

    Comment by Ken Hahn — 9/11/2010 @ 7:36 pm

    He11, St. Valentine’s Day cards and flowers are illegal in Sowdi Arabia.

    RickZ (aff6f4)

  135. “Don’t just insult, please”

    If that’s directed at me, it’s not an insult.

    The guy just doesn’t know anything about the subject he’s holding forth on, and he’s off topic to boot.

    “the largest Jewish community outside of
    Israel its not in New York, its not in Los Angeles
    Its in Tehran”

    Baloney. There’s about 5,000,000 Jews each in the United States and Israel, and that 10,000,000 total represents 80% of the world’s Jews. About 2,000,000 of those Jews live in the New York metro area which is the largest concentration of Jews outside of Israel.

    By way of comparison, Iran, which never had a sizeable Jewish population, due to centuries of oppression by Muslims, is thought to have a Jewish population somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000, with 25,000 being the most common estimate. Iran used to have a larger (though still very small, maybe 75,000 or so) Jewish population, but large numbers (i.e most )bailed out after the creation of Israel in 1948.

    Sorry, but Eric just flat out doesn’t have a clue…and I’m not into wasting a whole lot of time on people who are holding forth on subjects that they know zippo about.

    I’m just going to say that that person doesn’t have a clue and advise folks not to waste time arguing about it.

    Dave Surls (f0af93)

  136. Thank you David for some actual factual data. I knew that Eric wasn’t telling the truth. Though he might have thought he was telling the truth as he was spouting the same garbage my older step-son has spouted to me that I believe he’s getting from his college classes. And why is it when they start losing an argument that the issue all of a sudden is “complex” and you just don’t understand the complexity?

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  137. Not to pour more oil on the fire, but when the Spanish Inquisition kicked the Jews out of Spain, it was a Muslim regime that took them in. Maybe the Sultan/Caliph just wanted more honest, hardworking, taxpaying subjects, but the fact is that Jews under Ottoman rule fared much better than Jews in European Christian lands. (Until WWII when Salonica’s Jewish population was transported to Auschwitz and Dachau.)

    nk (db4a41)

  138. There may be “non-radical Muslims” insofar as they are non-observant Muslims who are afraid to reject Islam outright because their co-religionists will murder them in cold blood for apostasy. Burning a Koran is not likely to radicalize them; in fact, seeing someone else stand up to the Muslims might help them gather the courage to renounce Islam. After all, if enough people abandon Islam, the remaining Muslims won’t be able to kill all of the apostates.

    But there is no, and can never be, any such thing as “non-radical Islam”. Islam is an expansionist totalitarian political ideology masquerading as a religion, that seeks to rid the world of everything except itself. It is inherently, utterly, and irredemably evil and is undeserving of existence.

    And anybody who owns a book is entitled to burn it, publicly or otherwise. And if any Muslims, at home or abroad, pull any shenanigans as a result of being “offended” – then we strike back at the perps with everything we’ve got.

    1389AD (50aba7)

  139. “Thank you David for some actual factual data.”

    You’re welcome.

    There’s always going to be some argument about precise numbers. For example, some people say there were as many as 150,000 Jews in Iran prior to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, but the numbers I’m giving are in the ballpark.

    The idea that the largest Jewish community outside of Israel is in Tehran is simply absurd nonsense, whatever the exact numbers are, and anyone who asserts that as a fact simply has no idea what they’re talking about.

    Dave Surls (f0af93)

  140. Dave

    again, there are at least 100,000 practicing jews in Tehran and a few thousand in Shiraz

    Another much more controversial item is how many converts to Islam but were of the Jewish heritage are here in Iran

    Estimates are that many millions in Iran are second and third generation Jews hat converted to Islam in the late 1800’s and up to the time of the Shah

    I know this is difficult to absorb but the Persian Jews are as a race are a force in the middle east and have a powerful influence over the commerce in the region.

    So given the possibility that the Persians have at least 6 to 10 million Islamists of hebrew origin as well as thousands upon thousands of practicing Persian Jews today – I stand by my original statement

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  141. That’s kind of weird that people would hold a flag as sacred, as like a holy book. But then again, i’m not that religious.
    Comment by imdw — 9/11/2010 @ 4:37 pm

    — Nor, it seems, all that patriotic.

    Icy Texan (ef771e)

  142. Opposing the WTC “mosque” is demonstrating fear.
    Comment by kishnevi — 9/11/2010 @ 3:00 pm

    *step* *swing* *fwap!* “Ow! My nose!”
    Welcome back! We laid out some lawn implements in honor of your return.

    Icy Texan (ef771e)

  143. Eric,

    I’m sorry I interrupted your fantasies. You’re a good dhimmi and I presume you keep your tribute up to date. But your shifting statistics and fascinating tales of Iranians of Jewish origin who are now Muslims make it hard to take you seriously.

    Enjoy your fantasy while you can.

    Ken Hahn (5381e4)

  144. EPWJ, as the first one that questioned your numbers on Iranian Jews, I’m gonna have to really take you to task here [while observing Patterico’s “don’t just insult” policy].

    Not my etimate the last known reliable census was in 1977 at about 79,000
    — You NEVER say whose estimate it is. Whose is it?

    very few left IRan – one because they couldnt and two because they have lived surrounded by Iranians for centuries
    — From the wiki: At the time of the 1979 Islamic Revolution, 80,000 still remained in Iran. From then on, Jewish emigration from Iran dramatically increased, as about 20,000 Jews left within several months after the Islamic Revolution. In mid- and late 1980s, the Jewish population of Iran was estimated at 20,000–30,000. The reports put the figure at around 35,000 in mid-1990s and at less than 40,000 today, with around 25,000 residing in Tehran.
    Prove that any of the above is wrong.
    And what the hell is “they have lived surrounded by Iranians for centuries” supposed to mean?

    est today that their population may well exceed 100,000bbb
    — Unless and until you cite a source, one must conclude that YOU are the one making that estimate, and that you are not basing it on any factual data whatsoever.

    Having been to Egypt many times and working with Egyptians for decades I cannot argue with the estimates that the christian population could be much larger than reported
    — And this has What to do with the Jewish population in Iran?
    Nothing? Okay. Carry on.

    Remember, If an Arab country have 1,000 jews – they usually dont count Women, Children under 14, and they have a prediliction to lie alot, epecially anything that pertains to the jews
    — Is 1,000 the minimum number to have before they stop counting women & children? And who EVER said that these were government figures?

    The University here estimates in a Doha Rounds talk that the number is way over 100,000 and at one time was much higher.
    — What university? and where is the documentation to back it up?

    You are going to believe what you want to believe and I am going to believe what I want to believe
    — And if you would actually state it as a belief, rather than as a proven fact, then you might be in better shape here. At least you’re admitting that it’s a belief, even as you are implying that no one has the right answer because there are no reliable stats to be found anywhere.

    You – and many/most here have no contact nor even basic umderstanding of the complexities of the Arab world and will believe what you want to believe
    — Gee, patronize much?

    Just that the news that JEws and Christians live and worship in the Arab world does strike at the core of the comfortable mindset that they are too different and intolerant but in fact that is patently not true
    — Make up your mind! Are they being persecuted (“not allowed to leave”, “surrounded by Iranians”) or not? Even you seem to be unsure.

    BBJF the reports of Iranian jews leaving the country – there is some truth to it – but what you are not hearing is that they are and have been also moving BACK!
    — Am I not hearing it because my tin foil hat is misaligned? or because once again you cite no source for these “reports”?

    my point is
    — On top of your brain case. [remember: he said “don’t just insult”]

    I’ve been down this road before
    — One wonders if you know any other roads.

    – links – sources – whatever – anyone anywhere can find a contrarian source
    — Not really, since you have yet to provide any source at all. Let us say that we are being contrarian with your non-source.

    – it really just comes down to – why am I believing what I believe – is it from a sense of anger, of freedom, of fear, or is it a emotioness reflection that there are shades of gray and depth to black and white assertions
    — Translation: I don’t know whether or not I’m telling the truth, but it may not be that important . . . or maybe it is.

    Icy Texan (ef771e)

  145. Are you determined to drive any commenter that disagrees with you away from this site, IT?

    nk (db4a41)

  146. I have to bring up another point that Rauf touts as a reason for another Cordoba mosque, that Cordoba’s golden age is something to be emulated. Even the BBC admits, all 3 religions got along all right, as long as the Jews and Christians did not object to second class citizen status.

    It really makes me mad to see Idiot Andrew Sullivan and others praise Rauf’s op-ed in the WSJ for mentioning Cordoba as something good!

    So yeah, I’m fearful of another Andaluz.

    Patricia (358f54)

  147. “again, there are at least 100,000 practicing jews in Tehran and a few thousand in Shiraz”
    No.
    As of 2006 there were about 25,000

    “as long as the Jews and Christians did not object to second class citizen status.”
    And you prefer the Reconquista the Inquisition and the expulsion, the ethnic cleansing of both Muslims and Jews.

    No thank you.

    “By way of comparison, Iran, which never had a sizeable Jewish population, due to centuries of oppression by Muslims”

    Bullshit. As even conservative histories of Judaism admit, Jews were never as badly treated in the east as they could be in the west. The west has both the highs and the lows of Jewish Gentile relations.
    “An Armenian bishop recorded around A.D. 660 that the first governor of Muslim Jerusalem was Jewish.”

    Look up the history of Jews in Iran.

    As it is today we back the Sunni Saudis fundamentalist monarchy and a majority fundamentalist population against the semi-democratic Shiite Iran with a reformist population. Women aren’t even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. There are officially no churches or Synagogues, no Christians and no Jews in Saudi. In Iran there are about 600 churches of a dozen or more sects of Christianity. And even now the largest population of Jews in the area outside of Israel.

    The fascist Geert Wilders was the guest of honor at the anti-mosque protest yesterday. That about takes the fkg cake.

    “There may be “non-radical Muslims” insofar as they are non-observant Muslims who are afraid to reject Islam outright”

    And there may be christians who don’t blow up abortion clinics, but I’ve never met one. The sad thing is that I’m joking when I write that, and you’re not.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  148. It seems that the latest information I could find is from 2001, which puts the Jewish population in Iran between 10 to 20 thousand. Becase of what has happened in Bethelehem and other muslim dominated cities,I would think that number might be much lower now. Just look at what has happened in Turkey over the last nine years.

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  149. Good morning…

    No, nk, he’s not trying to drive him off. He’s trying to get him to say things that are reasonably true, and be prepared to defend what he writes.

    EPWJ was asked to provide some backup to his “facts” and his reply was, and I’ll quote what he wrote to me:

    my point is – I’ve been down this road before – links – sources – whatever – anyone anywhere can find a contrarian source – it really just comes down to – why am I believing what I believe – is it from a sense of anger, of freedom, of fear, or is it a emotioness reflection that there are shades of gray and depth to black and white assertions

    Hey I was shocked when I learned there were Jews in Iran, totally floored

    So, he couldn’t defend what he wrote, and changed his point to one of opinion about himself, rather than defense of his “factual” statements, which he could not defend.

    Then, if you read further, after backtracking, he “REPEATS” his undefendable “facts” before icy T decided to just rip them apart…

    Patterico wants us to “respectfully argue, debate” and I’m with him….so, I asked for some backup, because, frankly, I doubted that there are 100,000 Jews in Tehran. I searched on my own and found some easy links that put the numbers closer to 25-40K, didn’t search much deeper, and was interested in seeing something different.

    He couldn’t simply put the links. He could, however, appeal to the bullshit of emotioness (his spelling) reflection that there are shades of gray and depth to black and white assertions…

    I for one would love to see him stop posting bullshit here…but for that to happen, he would have to stop posting….

    P….sorry….

    reff (176333)

  150. I am almost sorry that I missed this. nk – How is Icy trying to drive anyone away? He seemed rather measured, given the asshattery he was responding to.

    JD (8ded14)

  151. Tanny O’Haley – Anyone can find a contrarian link. Anyone. That proves nothing 😉 Those might be 2001 figures, but there is nothing to suggest that the climate has improved so much for them in the last 9 years to make the figures being bandied about by the nozzle to be anywhere near accurate. Unless Iamadinnerjacket’s declaration to want to see Israel removed from the map caused a massive influx of Jews that has never been reported.

    Mona (8ded14)

  152. Are you determined to drive any commenter that disagrees with you away from this site, IT?

    If you actually believe that the commenter in question has not willfully trafficked in untruths and outright lies during his many serial fabrications here over the past year, then you haven’t been paying attention.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  153. I am as much to blame as anybody, but having been on the receiving end I don’t like “You’re a poopoohead”, “Oh, yeah, you’re a doodyhead”. It’s unseemly to attack other commenters personally just for disagreeing with us. In the end, we’re just talking around the village fountain.

    I know I broke my promise not to do that anymore. Maybe I can do better, maybe not.

    Let Eric talk. Believe him or not. No need to talk about pointy heads.

    nk (db4a41)

  154. No, Nk…that’s not the way this should be done….can he lie and deceive and mislead….yes, and he’ll get hammered for it….so, print some facts, and defend them….as to the bullshit, it has to be stopped…..

    reff (176333)

  155. Dmac can have his own opinion, and he can have his opinion of my opinion and he can believe what he is comfortable believing

    Persian Jews are an enigma for several reasons

    1. They are not much liked by the Jewish world due to several issues

    A – millions recently converted to Islam

    B – They co-existed during the 4 Arab Israeli wars without incident in the hundreds of thousands (accordingly 85,000 left for America and over a 100,000 left for Europe and an unknown amount went to Israel in 1979)

    C – they fled for economic and political issues not necessairly religious reasons

    So the problem is that Israel has and RIGHTFULLY so, garnered the moral high ground as a country under siege against a tide of arabs who want/were hell bent on their utter destruction since its inception.

    However the presence of millions of islamists of hebrew descent and over a 100,000 practicing jews that exist in just one arab country – in the arab mind – refutes Israels meme that they need buffer zones, occupied lands et al.

    See this to become a bigger issue since Israel built the wall.

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  156. “refutes Israels meme that they need buffer zones, occupied lands et al.”

    EricPW – Iran smuggling longer range rockets to Hamas and Hezbollah over time also defeats some of the purpose of buffer zones.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  157. Daley

    I was not giving my position, I was giving the Arab position

    They will also contend that no rockets have been fired at Jews in Iran

    Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups, many trained, funded and schooled within sight of Iranian Synagogues

    Daley, if you want to ask me how I feel about the situation, then just ask

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  158. So, Eric reveals his actual motivation–to be an apologist for Hamas. At least Diogenes was open and honest about it.

    1)Persian Jews are not disliked in the Jewish world.
    2)Since there were no millions of Persian Jews, there could not be millions who recently converted.
    And if they had, they would have been noticed. Even the change of one million in Jewish population would be an enormous change in terms of proportions.
    3)They co-existed? Then why did all those Jews whom you acknowledge to have left Iran leave Iran?
    And we are not talking about about the substantial number (I don’t have time to google for the exact number) of Jews who were forced out of Arab countries in the period after 1948, as the result of Arab anti-Zionism.
    There is one known community of Persian Jews who were forcibly converted to Islam c. 1880. After almost a century of living as secret Jews, they emigrated, more or less en masse, to Israel and returned to openly practicing Judaism. (For details, see the Wikipedia article on Persian Jews that has been linked to already in this thread.)
    4)those economic and political issues were directly tied to Muslim persecution of Jews
    Before the mullahs took over, Iran was a better place for Jews, and Iran was on its own terms a partner with Israel. That all changed when the Shah was replaced as dictator by the mullahs.
    However the presence of millions of islamists of hebrew descent and over a 100,000 practicing jews that exist in just one arab country – in the arab mind – refutes Israels meme that they need buffer zones, occupied lands et al
    I suppose they might do that, if they existed.
    But they don’t exist, so they don’t do what you claim they do.

    Side note–Iran, as any Arab or Iranian will tell you, is not an Arab country. It’s a Muslim country.

    kishnevi (d07183)

  159. They will also contend that no rockets have been fired at Jews in Iran

    The problem is rockets going the other way–rockets from Iran shot at Jews in Israel.

    And before long, we’ll be facing the reality of rockets shot from Iran at Israel, with nuclear payloads.

    kishnevi (d07183)

  160. “Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups, many trained, funded and schooled within sight of Iranian Synagogues”

    EricPW – WTF does this tgrowaway comment have to do with anything. The Iranian government torched another seven synagogues in 2007, I believe. How many remain? Are you denying that Jews are treated as second class citizens in Iran as explained in Tanny’s links above? Can you at least answer that without waffling?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  161. “Daley, if you want to ask me how I feel about the situation, then just ask”

    I’ll pass, thanks.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  162. and over a 100,000 practicing jews that exist in just one arab country

    You keep quoting this as a fact when it has been demonstrated to simply not be so. So much of what you claim to know simply is not true.

    JD (8ded14)

  163. nk….now you know hwy it can’t exist….

    reff (176333)

  164. EPWJ’s numerous unsupported, fanciful and contradictory posts about the Middle East (among other subjects) make him unworthy of serious attention.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  165. Daley,

    again – I was stating the ARAB position, not mine

    thats all,

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  166. Brother Bradley – It speaks for the Arab street too.

    JD (8ded14)

  167. EPWJ, then it should be easy for you to link the arguments from the Arab street…..
    please do so…

    reff (176333)

  168. Actually, there are Jews actively worshipping and praying in almost every Arab country and in fact the largest Jewish community outside of
    Israel its not in New York, its not in Los Angeles

    Its in Tehran

    So we are clear, this was incorrect, or a lie? It has been shown incorrect, so now that you know it to be incorrect, ongoing assertions of same can only be considered a lie.

    JD (8ded14)

  169. I could be incorrect JD, but lets say there are just 25,000 living there today or 11 or 40,000 who knows – no one does

    What can we gleam that even in the worst of times, these remarkable persian jews are surviving

    I wonder what we can learn from this

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  170. Brother Bradley – That article has no accuracy is the extent he will ever argue a position. He will never back it up, just keep asserting it.

    JD (8ded14)

  171. Even in Doha, there must be a strong temptation to draw a scimitar when he enters a room

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  172. The equivalent of Koran burning would be to burn the Bible
    Wrong. Mulsims view the Quran much differently than Christian view the Bible.

    Islam holds that the Bible as evolved thru the centries, but the Quran is identical to the day it was first written in Arabic. Therefore, the Bible is an interpretation, while the Quran is the word of God thru his messenger Mohammed.

    Neo (7830e6)

  173. Its difficult to tell the difference between your position and the “Arab” position, EPWJ, since both seem to consist of non sequiturs.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  174. No, let’s not just say that, since you cannot support that. It is not some mystery of the modern world. You were at least 400% off, and if you look at your claim that it is the largest concentration of Jews outside of Israel, you were off by orders of magnitude.

    We don’t need lessons in allowing peaceful people to live in our midst. We do quite well with that. You can make this out to be some deep thinking exercise, after the fact, on your part, but what it really comes down to was you talking out your squeakhole.

    JD (8ded14)

  175. America taking lessons from Iran on tolerance?

    that’s such a diseased thought. It’s hateful.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  176. “I could be incorrect, JD…”

    No, EPWJ….you’re wrong, and then you lie about it….

    I’m done with it….

    reff (176333)

  177. I missed that, reff.

    I could be incorrect …

    You have pretty much shown to be demonstrably incorrect, so anything further will only prove to be dishonest.

    JD (8ded14)

  178. Diogenes, this is such a false comparison I have to think you are just a troll.

    “And you prefer the Reconquista the Inquisition and the expulsion, the ethnic cleansing of both Muslims and Jews.”

    As you well know, I and he imam are talking about 21st century America. No, I do not want an Inquisition; I want Muslims to be sensitive and appreciative of America’s freedoms and her peoples.

    Patricia (358f54)

  179. well…..America is about to get a ginormous serving of moral guilt right here.
    This is going to hit in late October.
    Assange learned from the Afghan data dump…no more boring raw data that no one reads.
    This time the Epic Fail of Bush’s War is going to be ON THE TEEVEE.
    haha, the voters will be reminded of how much they hate Bush right before going to the polls…..on the idiot box.

    Iain Overton, editor of The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, tells Declassified that his organization has teamed up with media organizations—including major television networks and one or more American media outlets—in an unspecified number of countries to produce a set of documentaries and stories based on the cache of Iraq War documents in the possession of WikiLeaks. As happened with a similar WikiLeaks collection of tens of thousands of U.S. military field reports on the Afghan war, the unidentified media organizations involved with the London group in the Iraq documents project will all be releasing their stories on the same day, which Overton says would be several weeks from now. He declined to identify any of the media organizations participating in the project.

    NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR!
    hahahahahaha
    the revolution will be televised.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  180. Neo,
    Wrong. Mulsims view the Quran much differently than Christian view the Bible.

    Islam holds that the Bible as evolved thru the centries, but the Quran is identical to the day it was first written in Arabic. Therefore, the Bible is an interpretation, while the Quran is the word of God thru his messenger Mohammed.

    Your second graf doesn’t back up your first.

    If I read you correctly, your first graf drew a parallel between how Muslims and Christians view their respective holy books, the Koran and Bible.

    However, in your second graf you only explain how Muslims view the Koran and the Bible. You don’t explain how Christians view the Bible. Christians traditionally have viewed the Bible as the word of God, written under divine inspiration.

    Also, the Koran/Quran was originally an orally recited work. The written text was only standardized after Mohammed’s death, when one version was proclaimed to be authentic, and the others destroyed.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  181. put down the crack pipe, wheeler’s cat. The voters have tired of the media’s overwrought and false “revelations” about the Afghanistan operation.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  182. Let’s assume that Oliver Willis, is accurate. Wait, I am seriously laughing so hard it is bringing tears to my eyes. Oliver Willis?? King of the Soros Ho-Ho’s? Even assuming those numbers are true, Barcky has lost almost 8,000,000 jobs in less than 2 years. Bush had a net jobs increase of around 3,000,000. Lose 8 million, or gain 3 million. Which would you prefer?

    Or, let me put it in terms you might understand. You would prefer to bugger 8 goats, or get buggered by 3 goats?

    BTW, you did exactly as I predicted.

    JD (8ded14)

  183. and, btw, burning the Qur’an IS burning the Bible and the Torah, and all the lives of the prophets, Adam to Jesus.
    The Qur’an is based on the Bible and the Torah.

    You people don’t get it…..muslims don’t care if christians want to believe in the Jesus godhead— we are all People of the Book–

    we just care that christians want to MAKE us believe it too.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  184. OOPS, that was inadvertent. Sorry.

    JD (8ded14)

  185. If there were Iraq War mistakes and evil-doings I should think everyone would want to know cause of the historical interest

    But that won’t help with jobs very much I don’t think.

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  186. I think nk has a good point.

    Look: even when you don’t like someone, I would prefer to see the argument attacked rather than the person.

    “you were talking out your squeakhole” is attacking the argument. It’s a … colorful way to put it — but it’s attacking the argument. Ruling: acceptable.

    Some other comments in this thread have been more personal. Comments like that turn everything ugly fast. I won’t give examples, but I think you know what I’m talking about.

    Look at it this way: even if you don’t care about alienating EPWJ, there are readers who do get turned off when a comments section turns personally nasty. Keep those readers in mind when you comment.

    When I am around and I see a comment that is purely an attack on a person, I have started to actively delete those. I can’t say I’ll catch all of them, but my goal is to minimize purely personal attacks.

    The easiest test is simple. Ask yourself: am I attacking the commenter’s ARGUMENT, or am I attacking the COMMENTER? If it’s the latter, think twice before hitting the “Submit Comment” button.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  187. The Q’uran is the literal word of Allah, isn’t that what you tell us strangelet, somehow Christ’s teaching seven hundred years before, and Abraham
    and Moses, thousands of years before, got it wrong

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  188. Jeez. Wheeler’s Cat needs to get back on medication. And Patterico, I’m not being insulting. Read her posts again. Teh Crazee.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  189. But do feel free to delete at will. By the way, what should people do in response to folks who post demonstrable falsehoods, repeatedly?

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  190. #156

    The guy is so ignorant he actually thinks Iran is an Arab country.

    Like I said, he’s clueless and it’s a big waste of time arguing with him.

    More information on worldwide Jewish population…just in case anyone is interested.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

    Dave Surls (757823)

  191. _______________________________________

    The Qur’an is based on the Bible and the Torah.

    Uh, except for those notable portions related to the ruthless, violent, pro-assassination nature of Islam’s founder, Mohammed.

    But that’s okay. Since you’re a liberal, I’m sure your opinion of the Koran originates from a compassionate, humane, sophisticated part of your heart. [stifle snicker]

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  192. wheeler’s cat writes: we just care that christians want to MAKE us believe it too.

    Utter and complete nonsense, christianity has not engaged in forced conversion for centuries. Meanwhile, there are still islamic nations that have a death penalty for apostasy.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  193. As Dafydd notes: “After such a Koran burning, Moslem insurgents will attack our troops. But of course, it’s also a 100% certainty that if the burning is called off — Moslem insurgents will attack our troops. So it goes.”
    I think the point is, this makes more problems for our troops…..like General Petraeus said, MORE ‘moslem’ insurgents will attack our troops.
    But this is nothing…..just wait until the Garani Massacre video airs.
    The bestest recruiting tool evah.
    Youtube will pull it down but it will already be viral. A meme-plague of web-borne terrorism, like RNA terror plasmids sweeping across dar ul Islam.
    92 dead afghan children and teenagers.
    you think they hate us NAOW? just wait.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  194. What in the hell are you yammering about, nishi?

    JD (8ded14)

  195. wheeler’s cat, the last supposed atrocity video from Wikileaks was a fraud. Wikileaks has no credibility and no one will pay any attention.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  196. wheeler’s,
    we just care that christians want to MAKE us believe it too.

    A tiny, barely palpable minority of Christians favor forced Christianity. The overwhelming majority don’t.

    In most majority Moslem countries, it’s far different. You wouldn’t be quite as free with your words in such countries.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  197. Bradley, that is the part that confounds me so: the Mr. Magoo glasses that folks like this put on while considering Islamic society, while putting their own nation under an atomic force microscope.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  198. Eric Blair, self-hatred is a powerful thing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  199. wikileaks should have more recipes and lifestyle tips like about how to make your own spaghetti sauce and what you should and shouldn’t get dry-cleaned…

    I get confused about rayon what the hell is rayon anyway, Mr. Assange? Sounds like a DuPont conspiracy against the little silkworms. Like Tevlar and Myoplene.

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  200. A tiny, barely palpable minority of Christians favor forced Christianity.

    but you all PROSELYTIZE.
    al-Islam, in situ, is EGT immune to proselytization.
    There was freedom of religion in the Caliphate, jews and christians could be citizens– but they could not proselytize.
    shariah law prevents proselytization.
    That is why muslims can build mosques in America, but xians cannot build churches in KSA.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  201. P, I want to understand the argument, not bash the poster…

    so, EPWJ, post your links so I can undetand….

    But, he won’t, P….and that’s when I have a problem…

    I’m not nearly as knowledgable as most around here, so I do read links, and do look for answers….

    But I’m also getting tired of the deniers doing what they do…

    YOu will prevail with real facts, and persuasive arguments that are backed by facts….

    Not the bullshit of EPWJ…

    reff (176333)

  202. SPQR, when “Prayers for the Assassin” came out, by Robert Ferrigno, a lot of folks laughed it off. I didn’t. We don’t believe in much about our own nation, and few people have strong beliefs that they have thought deeply about (many of us have more of a “bumper sticker” mentality).

    To believe in your religion deeply, or the righteousness of your cause, can be an attractive thing to people who do not believe.

    Hence, I think, the weird concept of championing a belief system that would imprison you (at best) for protesting it.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  203. wheeler’s cat, proselytizing is not “MAKE” one believe. So you’ve already been caught making stuff up. And your view of “freedom of religion” is bizarre – endorsing a prohibition of proselytizing shows that you have no clue what freedom is.

    What a surprise.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  204. EGT? More gibberish. There is a prescription that desperately needs to be refilled.

    JD (8ded14)

  205. Ian– the Muslim position is that over the years the prophecies of Moses, David [=the Psalms], and Jesus have been distorted, often on purpose, by the intervening generations of Jews and Christians.

    Apparently, the possibility that intervening generations (of which there was at least one generation before it became a written text, see Brother Bradley’s comment above) of Muslims allowed the text of the Koran to be distorted is not something that later Muslims seem to have thought of.

    kishnevi (c8ebbd)

  206. Eric Blair, I believe it comes more from a profound sense of despising one’s self and hatred for one’s own society. Usually from being a failure in it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  207. ian mccormac, we revere Issa as a prophet, but not as a god.
    al-Islam EVOLVED from christianity, and christianity EVOLVED from judaism.
    al-Islam includes the People of the Book (jews and christians), the sacred texts (bible and torah), and all the prophets Adam to Issa.
    we say everyone is born a muslim.
    we are inclusive. 🙂

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  208. I just love the concept of WC going to Mecca and speaking out in favor of tolerance and acceptance. Of course, it is far safer to criticize the system here.

    Which is the point.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  209. I have too much respect for Sufi’s to believe that nishi/strangelet/wheeler’s cat/matoko is one, probably just a nut

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  210. Inclusive? What is your position on genital mutilation? Dhimmi taxes?

    And have you asked a mullah, recently, about evolution?

    Please get back to us on that.

    Sorry, Patterico, but this person is such a palpable fraud, on so many levels. And I’m irritated by this kind of thing the day after 9/11.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  211. ian – of that there is no doubt.

    JD (8ded14)

  212. Ian, you give the person too much credit.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  213. SPQR–proselytizing is TRYING to make one believe. what i said.

    eric–im not going to Mecca. why should i?
    im an amerimuslimah.
    i can build mosques here. 🙂

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  214. Eric – They are very “inclusive” to rape victims, women, homosexuals, etc … and joooooooooooooos.

    JD (8ded14)

  215. nishi – Wow, you’re still a muslim?

    Last time I asked, you dodged the questions.

    Are muslims pro choice?

    Do muslims support gay rights?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  216. wheeler’s cat, horse manure. You said “make”. Not try, make.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  217. Now it is making up definitions.

    JD (8ded14)

  218. Dave

    You are correct many do not think the Iranians are not Arabs, but the fact that thousands upon thousands of Jews live there that millions of Iranians are of Hebrew origin

    JD

    I’m not 400% off and the estimate that 6 to 10 million Iranian Muslims are hebrew is documented by scholars at Princton, The University of Texas and other places

    This is an interesting read
    http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/littman_jews_under_muslims_case_of_persia.pdf

    Another interesting read
    http://www.parstimes.com/history/jews_persia.html

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  219. daleyrocks, muslims like wheeler’s cat promise to tolerate everyone … once they murder all the gays.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  220. OT, doesn’t Assuange remind us of Serge from Beverly Hills Cop, or Colin Mockery of “Who’s Line Is It Anyways’

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  221. That is why muslims can build mosques in America, but xians cannot build churches in KSA

    Then it’s time for the Saudis to enter the modern world, and let people build churches wherever they want.

    Of course, if Islam were as great as you think it was, no one in the Muslim world would even think about abandoning it for another religion or for atheism, and no one would need to build a church in Arabia.

    kishnevi (c8ebbd)

  222. And subjugate the women.

    And put a stop to “non-Islamic” science.

    And….

    Well, you get the picture.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  223. Yes, you were at least 400% off on your original claim, though you have tried to make several different claims since. Your original claim was that there were 100,000-150,000 Jews in Tehran, which then morphed into Iran. I was trying to be generous. You also claimed that it was the single greatest concentration outside of NYC, a claim which makes your 400% error seem like a piker. Now you are making up new metrics to obscure your prior asshattery, and suggests that you were not “incorrect” but dishonest, given you dissembling.

    JD (8ded14)

  224. Would wheeler’s cat pretend to be a Muslim?

    I do not know this person well but I hear she deliberately antagonizes people. I wonder: if such a person thought a particular collection of commenters was prejudiced against a particular group, might she pretend to be part of that group?

    Rank speculation here, of course.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  225. im not going to Mecca. why should i?

    The Hajj, for one thing. That is an obligation according to Islam.

    kishnevi (c8ebbd)

  226. She has long since claimed to be a Sufi, Patterico. A mystical muslim.

    JD (8ded14)

  227. JD

    Yes if the reports of 6 to 10 million Jews living in Iran are true (most either non secular or converst to islam to avoid taxation)

    Thats significantly more than live in the Entire US

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  228. wallah….im just speaking the truth.
    you sillie cudlips will never get to build a megachurch in Mecca.
    al-Islam just kicked America’s ass in Iraq, and is kicking America’s in Afghanistan.
    Just like the Viet Cong kicked America’s ass.
    Iraq is now an islamic state, Vietnam is a communist state.
    all you have are ad-homs.
    im a mevlevi sufi, and you know even less of sufism that you do of al-Islam.

    common people repent their sins, the Sufi repent from ignorance.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  229. They are very “inclusive” to rape victims, women, homosexuals, etc … and joooooooooooooos.

    But that’s okay. After all, the sad, dejected, struggling Muslims of the Middle East — those valiant underdogs of the Third World facing the horrible imperialist, capitalist, bigoted, racist, homophobic, mean and greedy Western World — have their heart in the right place.

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  230. Patterico, wouldn’t surprise me in the least. wheeler’s cat seems to use terminology incorrectly enough to support that idea.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  231. Oh, and as for “Amerislam,” I would just like to remind folks of the Five Pillars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

    One of them is indeed to travel to Mecca. Women and men, both.

    “Why should I?”

    And you call yourself Muslim?

    Unless you are, of course, Shia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_%28Shi%27a_doctrine%29

    Like I said. a fraud.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  232. Patterico – nishi is a pop fashionista muslim, to make her daddy mad.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  233. al-Islam EVOLVED from christianity, and christianity EVOLVED from judaism.

    That remark would get WC convicted of heresy in a Sharia court. Muslims say Islam is the restoration of the true religion, presented in a corrupted form by Jews and Christians.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  234. Let’s take a vote. How many think EPWJ will support this most recent claim that there are 6-10,000,000 jews living in Iran (non-secular or convert to Islam). I vote not in a million billion trillion years. I vote that it is complete hocum. I vote that if there are currently approximately 13,000,000 Jews worldwide, that it is highly unlikely that 50% of the Jews in the world, or more (based on your make believe 6-10,000,000 figure), are non-practicing or were forced into conversion and have emigrated en masse to Iran, where Iamadinnerjacket wants to see Israel wiped off the face of the earth.

    JD (8ded14)

  235. So, Patterico, I realize words are words, but “kicked America’s ass” in a post on 9/12 is a bit…ah…insensitive?

    As for being Sufi…puh-leeze. Yet another bit of dishonesty, like her attempts to use scientific lingo (and incorrectly, for what that is worth).

    Actually, we all know that WC is all about trying to get banned, to be offensive. That’s the goal. And Patterico, decent man that he is, is trying to be more inclusive on his blog.

    Not a pleasant job, given the people he must defend.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  236. “we just care that christians want to MAKE us believe it too.”

    Just for myself, speaking as a Jew and a Christian, I don’t care what you believe.

    It’s not me you’re going to have to answer to for your beliefs or deeds.

    Dave Surls (757823)

  237. the Sufi repent from ignorance.

    Then nishit is in a perpetual state of repentance.

    JD (8ded14)

  238. Patterico,

    Yes, I think there are those like WC that assume a position just to be able to target a group and provoke them. They might get their jollies from being able to successfully push other’s buttons, or they might just be pathetic attention whores.

    Regardless of what they are at heart, it more interestingly reveals that their marks are easy targets judging by their willingness to *allow* themselves to be provoked – as evidenced by the wasted bandwidth and actual thought given to actually respond to said provocation. Meh.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  239. eric blair, i am a sufi of the mevlevi school. look that up.
    the hajj has always been conditioned on ones ability to travel to either Mecca or Karbala, Medina or Qom.

    Patterico, no one EVER addresses my arguments, all i get are ad homs.
    The next wikileaks drop, the Iraq docs, are already being processed for release, likely in October. Unlike the Afghan docs, the Iraq intel will be presented pre-processed on television and in print, not raw internet files.
    My point being that Americans are going to get a healthy dose of moral guilt.
    What I said about the Qur’an is true also– it incorporates the bible and torah stories and all the prophets.
    And the Garani Massacre video is real as well.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  240. @mona – Tanny O’Haley – Anyone can find a contrarian link. Anyone. That proves nothing Those might be 2001 figures, but there is nothing to suggest that the climate has improved so much for them in the last 9 years to make the figures being bandied about by the nozzle to be anywhere near accurate. Unless Iamadinnerjacket’s declaration to want to see Israel removed from the map caused a massive influx of Jews that has never been reported.

    I wasn’t saying the climate had improved, just the opposite. I wanted to show how easy it was to find “main stream” and other links that show Eric’s numbers to be easiely disproved.

    Tanny O'Haley (9116e1)

  241. Dave Surls
    good! then don’t attempt to proselytize me or make argument that others can.
    like i said, that is real tolerance.
    yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
    besides, al-Islam is immune to proselytization– that is why America lost in Iraq. The Bush Doctrine is proselytization of western style democracy.
    It cannot be done.
    when muslims can vote, they vote (democratically) for shariah.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  242. Wheeler’s cat:

    You seem to imply that America is at war with Islam.

    Is that what you think?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  243. Dana – Some of us have long histories of interacting with nishi at other places. She is a griefer and exults in being banned. If I can speed up that process I am happy to assist.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  244. wheeler’s cat, I directly addressed your comments and you then pretended you did not say what is plainly written by you.

    Prohibition of proselytizing is not “tolerance” – it is intolerance. Your habit of reversing the meaning of english terminology says a lot.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  245. 147. Are you determined to drive any commenter that disagrees with you away from this site, IT?
    Comment by nk — 9/12/2010 @ 6:24 am

    — I have no intention of driving ANYONE away from this site, nk. I’m a big supporter of the banned commentor amnesty, and always tried to oppose the banning of the annoying types in the first place.

    Why? And why are some of my responses a little bit on the harsh side? Because I’m challenging people to back-up their assertions with facts. Because I’m holding people to the standard of actually expressing an opinion, rather than posting ad hominem attack and non sequitur-laden spew-fests. If someone is going to take the time to tell me that my opinion is wrong, I want them to tell me WHY. If someone is going to tell me that their opinion is correct, I want them to give reasons, evidence, citations that support their claim. If the issue is more philosophical than statistical, then I want them to provide some rationale for why they believe the way they do. “I’m right, and you’re a hater for disagreeing with me,” does not qualify.

    Icy Texan (ef771e)

  246. Don’t dare say Islam is anything but a religion of peace or the Islamists will fly into a rage and demand your head.

    LukeHandCool (3326e2)

  247. so nishit the eugenecist favors sharia?

    Tanny – I was joking.

    Real tolerance is not proseletyzing? So, stoning homosexuals. Honor killings. Punishing rape victims. Beheadings. Where on your system of distorted moral equivalency do those fall?

    America lost in Iraq. This is vintage nishit.

    JD (8ded14)

  248. If islam was actually tolerant, its adherents would not be threatening and carrying out death threats towards critics like they are.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  249. _________________________________________

    I do not know this person well but I hear she deliberately antagonizes people.

    I bet this description — transcending the particular age of such people — fits her to a “T”…

    Reason.com: The people who give the least are the young, especially young liberals. [Public policy professor at Syracuse University, Arthur C.] Brooks writes that “young liberals — perhaps the most vocally dissatisfied political constituency in America today — are one of the least generous demographic groups out there. Liberals, he says, give less than conservatives because of religion, attitudes about government, structure of families, and earned income.

    He writes that young liberals are less likely do nice things for their nearest and dearest, too. Compared with young conservatives, “a lower percentage said they would prefer to suffer than let a loved one suffer, that they are not happy unless the loved one is happy, or that they would sacrifice their own wishes for those they love.”

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  250. Instead of wasting time on WC and EPWJ, who have repeatedly given provably unreliable information, may I suggest another topic? Something of great interest to Tea Party people, and all those who care about government fiscal irresponsibility?

    How to Cheat a Retirement Fund
    By ORIN S. KRAMER

    A FEW weeks ago, at the insistence of the Securities and Exchange Commission, New Jersey agreed never again to fraudulently hide its underfunding of the state’s public pension system. Meanwhile, in Albany, Harry Wilson, the Republican candidate for state comptroller, has asserted that — if you do the math the way any ordinary financial analyst or economist would — New York’s pension system is underfunded by tens of billions of dollars and that, as a result, the state is essentially insolvent.

    These little tempests are likely to soon recur in many other states and cities nationwide, because so many governments have invested far too little money in their public pension funds. Retirement promises made to public employees represent a huge hidden liability for future taxpayers — helping ensure recurrent deficit crises for state and local governments…

    This government accounting mirage adds up to an enormous national problem. If you use the most recent data from government accounting standards, the collective shortfall for state and local governments nationwide appears to be about $1 trillion. If you use corporate accounting standards to estimate the value of those public pensions, however, you come up with a shortfall two and a half times as large — about $2.5 trillion. Employing a third approach that assumes, as economists generally do, that even corporate accounting standards in this area are too lenient, public pension underfunding is about $3.5 trillion, or one-quarter of gross domestic product…

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  251. Sometimes the best response is an eye roll.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  252. and yes….i think it is IMPORTANT to point out that America LOST in Iraq. otherwise the warpimps are going to scam you cudlips into fighting WWIII with Iran.
    plus, I think we should leave NAOW, both Iraq and Afghanistan.
    why pour more blood and treasure into a bottomless pit?

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  253. “no one EVER addresses my arguments, all i get are ad homs.”

    nishi – Present an argument in the form of an argument and then maybe somebody would address something you say. All you present are gibberish ad hom one liners.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  254. Patterico, no one EVER addresses my arguments, all i get are ad homs.

    Because it amuses me, I will.

    Above you said al-Islam kicked America’s ass.

    So you, a Muslim, consider the US to be at war with Islam?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  255. wheeler’s cat, there are Burger King’s and Dairy Queen’s in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    That’s victory.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  256. No, SPQR, Iraq won.

    Just ask Saddam.

    Oh, wait …

    Patterico (c218bd)

  257. STFU you ignorant cudlips your warforoilandblood and proselethization in MENA was a failure and eugenics rule and meme warrior.

    JD (8ded14)

  258. You seem to imply that America is at war with Islam.

    isn’t it obvious? No one here can tell the difference between the fundamentalists and rest of us.
    Bin Laden won. He successfully convolved al-Islam with al-Qaeda.
    Americans can’t tell the difference.
    The Bush Doctrine is an attempt to “implant western-style democracy”. That has become a war on al-Islam.
    Look at what is happening here with Park51 and Pastor Jones.
    The GWoT was always a war on Islam, in how it was prosecuted.
    And America lost…..a trillion dollars, 5000 dead soldiers, 150000 dead Iraqis later, and we have another islamic state with religious political parties, shariah in the constitution, and the imams and ayatullahs still call the shots.
    One out of every 200 Iraqis died in the last seven years…and they all had relatives.
    Let me clue you in…there are a lot MORE muslims now that hate us and think of revenge.
    and we built them.
    we are not safer.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  259. I’m trying to live up to nk’s sentiment in 155. It’s kinda lame that I would find it challenging. Bradley’s reaction in this thread at perfect and I’m happy and I can just leave it be.

    However, most of my family is in Iran, and one of the worst aspects of that is that they are exposed to a tremendous disinformation and paranoia campaign, where so many strange lies are repeated to prove how Iran is better, different from places with similar problems, and just random nonsense about Britain, the USA, and Jews.

    Iran could take lessons on how to be tolerant from just about anybody short of Hitler. And step 1 to being tolerant is rejecting ignorance. Parroting the nonsense about Iran being a wonderful home to so many Jews (justified solely on the same lie repeated ad nauseum) is indecent.

    But that’s not directed as an attack on a commenter who many do roll their eyes at. The idea is similar to many I’ve heard from people I love who believe a lot of horsecrap because they have been robbed of reality. I don’t hate these people, but I find the propaganda to be extremely hateful.

    There is barely a place on the planet that couldn’t take many lessons on tolerance from America.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  260. More to the point, wheeler’s cat:

    Do you think Islam is at war with the US?

    From your last comment I am guessing you think the answer is: yes, and it’s Bush’s fault.

    Correct me if I’m wrong.

    Just for grins, then: your view as to what the US should have done when al-Qaeda killed 3000 of our fellow citizens.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  261. Let me clue you in…there are a lot MORE muslims now that hate us and think of revenge.
    and we built them.

    Plenty of Muslims celebrated when we were hit on 9/11.

    One place where there were massive pro-American demonstrations: Iran.

    But in the Arab world there was plenty of celebrating.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  262. Oh, c’mon, nishi. You know as much of Sufism as you do about physics or biology. Not much.

    Daley had you pegged. Your actions and comments are antithetical to the philosophy behind the honorable middle way of Sufism, and you know it.

    You need to spend a bit more time on the dhikr instead of being, well, you know.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  263. Patterico…..do you understand what the Bush doctrine is?
    And COIN is just the Bush doctrine cut down to village size.
    “standing up” western (judeoxian) democracy simply can’t be done, not there. the lawyers are the clergy and the clergy are the lawyers.
    sure, we are building schools– but are we building law schools and secular universities? It can’t be done, there is NO substrate to support secular democracy.
    Im not mad because i think america is EVIL– america is not evil.
    but we are stupid….we are trying to do something that cannot be done– replace islam.
    and we have been trying for nearly a decade at a horrific cost and we still can’t man up and say, wallah—this will never work.
    Bush was a WEC retard.
    How long do we have to pay for that?

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  264. Patterico, it is nice that you try. But anyone who follows Hollywood Rumi is a lost cause.

    Folks who think that this individual’s view of Sufi thought is somehow representative of that honorable philosophy—please don’t listen to nishi. Instead, pick up and read Stephen Schwartz’s book “The Other Islam.”

    He is even kinder to the followers of Rumi than I am. Too many Hollywood parakeets are involved with that one.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  265. So, in comment #173 EPWJ basically concedes that the statistics he was touting as PROOf of something SIGNIFICANT are wrong . . .

    and then he tries to move the goal posts (“I wonder what we can learn from this”). He goes from repeatedly asserting that impressive 100,000 number as PROOF OF SOMETHING to saying that it’s remarkable that there are ANY Jews in Iran at all. If he had stuck to just speaking about the lives of Jews — whatever the number — in Iran he might have been able to make some kind of salient point. Instead he completely obscured whatever point he was trying to make by touting an unsupported number as critically important.

    Icy Texan (ef771e)

  266. Hmmm, I bet I could get a bacon burger in the Dairy Queen in Kabul …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  267. Eric Blair
    i dont give a fuck about what you believe, so please extend me the same courtesy. 🙂

    Patterico

    what the US should have done when al-Qaeda killed 3000 of our fellow citizens.

    Requested OBL. If they refused declared war. Gone in Japan style— invasion, occupation, reconstruction.
    The Bush Doctrine is bullshytt and could never work in a country where 99.7 of the population is muslim.
    when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote they vote for shariah. its all there is.
    Are you srsly disputing that a LOT MORE MUSLIMS hate us now and think about revenge?
    Don’t be sillie.

    wheeler's cat (1eef0b)

  268. No, SPQR. They are not tolerant enough.

    JD (8ded14)

  269. Moving away from personalities, IT, I see this a lot in my classes. Students will think that their opinion about a factual matter is relevant.

    It doesn’t matter what one thinks of that sort of thing, when there are facts in play. But in so much of the political world, opinion trumps fact.

    Like Hope and Change?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  270. Sheesh, Eric Blair, you have better students than I do. Mine think their feelings about a factual matter are relevant …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  271. That, too, SPQR. It’s kind of scary. But the thing that gets me the most is the asymmetry: they want all kinds of tolerance for things being late, partial credit, etc….but are extremely exacting of others.

    It reminds me of the old saying: youth demands justice, while experience prays for mercy.

    I can’t do anything about their sense of entitlement and asymmetrical thinking, but I can remind myself that they will shortly be in the “real world,” where their attitudes will shortly be…corrected.

    I wish I could save them that lesson, but it remains up to them. They are nice people, at their core. Our educational system has done them a vast disservice.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  272. The Bush Doctrine is an attempt to “implant western-style democracy”. That has become a war on al-Islam.
    The plain inference from that is that you believe that democracy is incompatible with Islam.
    Which means that you agree with the jihadis.
    Which means you are not a sufi. Eric has you pegged. I’ve probably forgotten more about Sufism than you have ever learned about it.

    If you really are trying to follow the Sufi way, find a better shayk.

    kishnevi (c8ebbd)

  273. “good! then don’t attempt to proselytize me”

    Wouldn’t waste my time.

    If you’re deluded enough to believe that God sent, as his messenger, a pedophile, a slaver, a murderer and a rapist in order to instruct men on how to live…that’s basically 100% your problem.

    Dave Surls (757823)

  274. Eric Blair, I provide the cold bucket of water on their sense of entitlement.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  275. I know that you have studied religious doctrine, kishnevi. I’m just an amateur. Thank you for your input on this. I have read a fair amount about the Sufi traditions, and I let a parakeet irritate me.

    Which would amuse any real Sufi.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  276. daley @ #245,

    Your choice, of course, and I assume there is a certain level of amusement involved, too.

    It’s just when WC sagely proclaims,

    America is about to get a ginormous serving of moral guilt right here.

    …I think, well then thank God our president has already apologized for every possible sin we have and will commit for all of eternity. We’re covered.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  277. SPQR, I do not have the security to “speak truth to power,” sadly. But what you wrote reminded me of this, if you have not seen it:

    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/nosymp.htm

    Tough lessons, but important ones.

    I’m not Mr. Tough Guy and I never will be (though I suspect many folks need that view; I know I did at 18). But I do try to insist on consistency and reciprocity.

    The thing that taught me this the most was being on a “Honor Court” a couple of years ago: the students representatives were FAR tougher on the cheating student than the professors.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  278. Dana, I tip my hat to you. That was brilliant (#275).

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  279. Thanks Eric, my students will be getting a new handout …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  280. Eric–
    in truth, my comment should be read as how little WC knows,not how much I know

    kishnevi (c8ebbd)

  281. “and yes….i think it is IMPORTANT to point out that America LOST in Iraq. otherwise the warpimps are going to scam you cudlips into fighting WWIII with Iran.”

    Good idea. I think we ought to go into Iran and let the Mad Mullahs defeat us just like Hussein and the Baathists defeated us in Iraq.

    We’ll get revenge for for all the Americans killed by Iranian state sponsored terrorism, the Mad Mullahs will be staring up at six feet of dirt for the rest of eternity like Hussein and co., and defeating us will give Muslims the world over a big self-esteem boost.

    That’s a win-win scenario, if you ask me.

    Dave Surls (757823)

  282. Yes if the reports of 6 to 10 million Jews living in Iran are true

    As the famous saying goes, you’re entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts. Like so many other statements you’ve made here, you never back up your claims with objective sources…ever. In spite of what our host feels about attacking the messenger, I can never read any post of yours without laughing at will.

    Shall we go through the list of your statements of “fact?”

    – James O’Keefe committed a Federal felony and would be summarily frog – marched to the pen post haste;
    – you currently live in Spain
    – no, wait – you currently live in Iran, yes?
    – you’re an arch “conservative,” yet felt that Dede the Scofflaw was just peachy as a fine exemplar of the conservative movement.
    – all RHINOS are also awesome – we’re the real traitors to the cause, not a fine upstanding “conservative” such as yourself.

    Can you even keep track of all of your serial fabrications?

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  283. Yes if the reports of 6 to 10 million Jews living in Iran are true

    If my aunt had nuts she would be my uncle.

    Dmac – Don’t forget that Breitbart is going to be indicted anytime now, and that O’Keefe breached national security protocols.

    JD (8ded14)

  284. Iran

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

    Population:
    66,429,284 (July 2010 est.)

    Religions:
    Muslim 98% (Shia 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha’i) 2%

    RickZ (aff6f4)

  285. Oh, c’mon, nishi. You know as much of Sufism as you do about physics or biology. Not much.

    I have to agree with Eric Blair. Sufism (or dervishism) is a large part of Greek culture, too. I grew up with Nazreddin Hodja stories. I don’t know who Nishi’s “shayk” is but I think she is wasting her time and money with him.

    nk (db4a41)

  286. kishnevi
    do i care what you think of my sufism? again, i don’t give a flying fuck about what you believe. please extend me the same courtesy.
    I have read the Qur’an.
    the stories of the bible and the torah are in there, as are the lives and wisdom of the prophets.
    if jones burns a qur’an, he burns parts of the bible and the torah too.
    that is truth.
    I tell you christianity evolved to proselytize as a strategy to increase reps, and al-Islam evolved to be EGT immune to proselytization.
    im sorry if this hurts your feefees.
    see John Maynard-Smith, Evolution and the Theory of Games, appendices B, C, D, and G.
    🙂

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  287. More than Karagioz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karagiozis (Safe for work).

    nk (db4a41)

  288. Dave Surls
    but that is not what would happen.
    ‘nejad would pull in all the arab states on his side, light sweet crude would go to 300 dollars a barrel, and Our Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Israel would whack the nuke enrichment site under Tehran Univerisity causing a real ground zero, a mini-genocide of Iranian students (our only friends), and democide in a muslim city of 8 million souls.
    the Israelis say there are no civilians in war.
    not to mention kicking off WWIII.
    ummm….we are broke remember that?

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  289. On a visit to a neighboring town where he was not known, Nasreddin Hoja went to a bathhouse. The attendants, seeing that he was poorly dressed, treated him in a casual manner. They did not help him to undress or wash, and they brought him a torn towel and only a scrap of soap. On leaving the bathhouse, Nasreddin Hoja gave a gold piece to each of the attendants, who cursed themselves for having been deceived by his modest attire.

    The following week Nasreddin Hoja appeared again at the bathhouse, dressed as before. This time howver, he was treated with great deference. The attendants brought him new towels, and scented soap, and scrubbed, washed and massaged him, their palms tingling with anticipated pleasure of another gold piece. But on leaving the bathhouse, Nasreddin Hoja gave each attendant a copper piaster and, in answer to their surprise protest, he said, “The gold pieces I gave you last week were for the way you treated me today, and the copper piasters I have just given you are for the way you treated me last week.”

    nk (db4a41)

  290. you believe that democracy is incompatible with Islam.

    no, westernstyle democracy is incompatible with al-Islam.
    Iraq is an islamic democracy, as i pointed out.
    that is why COIN and the Bush Doctrine are Epic Fails.
    there is no secular substrate to support westernstyle democracy.
    we just spent a trillion dollars, 5000 soldier lives, and 7 years finding that out.
    was it worth it?
    better yet, did we learn anything?

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  291. Well, something is broken, certainly.

    The Three Pillars of Sufism are kushu, karamat, and sijd.

    So I don’t know how much you give to charity, but the first and third pillar need some shoring up.

    If you are Sufi, that is.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  292. nk, I enjoy Sufi tales. That was a good one. And there are versions of that throughout history. I like the lessons that these stories teach.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  293. yet felt that Dede the Scofflaw was just peachy as a fine exemplar of the conservative movement.

    Since I don’t follow all the many threads — or the hundreds of postings — in this blog, I missed the one where that opinion was expressed. But if that’s an accurate reflection of the quality of his judgment, then — pffft — he deserves a million demerits in the eyes of anyone with a bit of common sense.

    This may be an OT copy-and-paste, but anyone who foolishly believed Scozzafava was philosophically acceptable is pretty much suspect and unreliable from here on out:

    Michellemalkin.com:

    Scozzafava is an abortion rights advocate who favors gay marriage. It would be one thing if Scozzafava balanced that social liberalism with fiscal conservatism. But as a state assemblywoman, she voted for massive tax increases, Democratic budgets and a $180 million state bank bailout. She also supported the trillion-dollar federal stimulus package — which every House Republican voted against.

    More troubling, Scozzafava in past elections has embraced the ballot line of the Working Families Party — a socialist outfit whose political DNA is intertwined with scandal-ridden ACORN.

    Scozzafava’s husband is a leading upstate New York union organizer. She supports the federal “card-check” legislation that would massively boost union rolls — and Democratic voting rolls — at the expense of rank-and-file workers’ free choice. And for that matter, at the expense of Republican electoral prospects. Card check is the key to a Democratic majority in perpetuity. Big Labor bosses have said as much.

    Meanwhile, “moderate Republican” Scozzafava has earned the enthusiastic endorsement of far-left blog entrepreneur and political strategist Markos Moulitsas Zuniga, who runs the Daily Kos website. He enthused that Scozzafava has “been willing to raise taxes when budgets require it, and is to the left of most Democrats on social issues.”

    ^ Ironically — and unbelievably — she apparently also is a defender of the 2nd Amendment. But that calls to mind the saying that even a broken clock will give the correct time twice a day.

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  294. All nishit is about is uber-leftism wrapped up in flipping the bird to her daddy, a desperate need for any type of attention, a lack of pharmacological compliance, and an illusion of sufism so she can pretend to be one of the cool people. The idea that she gives a turd about us being broke when she advocates every last one of the policies that led us to becoming broke is laughable beyond words.

    JD (8ded14)

  295. one of my shayyks is the Muhiyydin, Ibn Arabi.
    another is al-Ghazali, and also Mansur al Hallaj.
    But Rumi is the main shayyk of the mevlevi.

    A merchant kept a talking bird in a cage, and valued the bird greatly. He was going to India, from whence the bird came, and asked it whether he could bring anything back for it. The bird asked for its freedom, and was refused. So the bird asked the mercahnt to visit a certain jungle in India and announce his captivity to the free birds that lived there.
    The merchant did so, and no sooner had he spoken than when a wild bird, just like his own, fell senseless out of a tree onto the ground.
    The merchant thought that this must a relative of his own bird, and felt sadness that he had caused death.
    When he got home, the bird asked him if had good news from India.
    No, said the merchant, I fear my news is bad. One of your relations collapsed and fell at my feet when I mentioned your captivity.
    As soon as these words were spoken the merchant’s bird collapsed and fell to the bottom of its cage.
    The news of his kinsmans death has killed him thought the merchant. Sorrowfully he picked up the bird to dispose of it. At once the bird revived and free of the cage, flew out the window to a nearby tree.
    Now you know, said the bird, that what you thought was disaster was good news for me. And how the message of how to behave inorder to free myself was transmitted to me through you, my captor.
    And he flew away, free at last.

    This is the sufi message of the importance of indirect learning.
    Yet there is a greater law of the Sufi–

    man cannot acquire what he cannot use.

    therefore it is a waste for me to bring truth to this site, because you have no use for it.
    ya-haqq!

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  296. “that is why COIN and the Bush Doctrine are Epic Fails”

    Yeah?

    I’d say the guys who experienced the “epic fail” are guys like Saddam Hussein and Abu Abbas, seeing as how they’re dead and all.

    Dave Surls (0b0fd1)

  297. nishi – Why have you not answered Patterico’s questions two-digit gurl?

    lulz – you go nutz hunee!

    daleyrocks (940075)

  298. C’mon, daley. This is just the usual stuff. Our crazee friend tries to sound wise…but when confronted with people who, well, know something, it all becomes a pose. And poseur.

    I noticed this before over issues in physics and biology. Now in theology as well.

    The two other pillars that nishi seems unaware of are humility and honesty.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  299. Yeah, before Rumi was the darling of the Hollywood twinkies and their incense, some wisdom could be found there.

    What is arrogance?
    It is being oblivious and insensible to what is essential,
    as the ice is unaware of the sun.
    When ice becomes conscious of the sun, it doesn’t last long:
    it warms and melts and flows away.

    Hmmmm….

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  300. “– Nor, it seems, all that patriotic.”

    Can’t please everyone. Then again, everyone’s born somewhere they can be a patriot to.

    imdw (7b0243)

  301. wheeler’s cat, COIN has nothing to do with imposing western style democracy. However, I find your claim that islam is incompatible with democracy amusing. It means that you should get the hell out of this country now.

    That said, I think that the Afghan’s and the Iraqi’s will find democracy to their liking and not in conflict with islam. It is only the islam of the extremists that is “incompatible” with democracy, because they find that the people that they intend to subjugate with their authoritarian dictatorship don’t buy into it. Like all sensible people.

    One consistent thing about you, wheeler’s cat: every idea you have is flat out wrong.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  302. See, even when the host goes out of his way to be uber-kind to people that have proven themselves unworthy of such treatment, he gets full-on krazy from nishit, and standard mendoucheity from iamadimwit.

    JD (8ded14)

  303. Eric Blair – You have nishi’s number. Pop fashionista poseur who believes she is smart, just like Obama, but does not know what she does not know.

    Fraud is also a good description.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  304. one of my shayyks is the Muhiyydin, Ibn Arabi.
    another is al-Ghazali, and also Mansur al Hallaj.
    But Rumi is the main shayyk of the mevlev

    Ahem. They’re dead. So books are your teachers?
    Once they were mine, too. Then I realized that reading about being on the Way and being on the Way are two entirely different things.

    But one of the things I remember from the books I read is that Sufism places great emphasis on placing yourself under a living shayk who can guide you. Do you have a living teacher under whom you have placed yourself?

    If not, you are just a dilettante.
    If you are serious, get rid of your books. If that seems too hard–that is nothing to the real task of getting rid of your Self.

    kishnevi (ad18bd)

  305. The hard questions are, well, hard. Kishevi points it out.

    None of us are perfect, and our feet stumble on our respective paths.

    Sufism is more than reading Indries Shah and going to a film festival. It’s a Path.

    What I admired most about the Sufi Way was its gentle humor, and it’s ever-present humility.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  306. When threads become long, they become nasty.

    This is a song I played for for my-to-be wife twenty years ago. More than safe for work, but hard for western players. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTNXo6UbBgE

    Enjoy.

    nk (db4a41)

  307. If I had a glass of retsina handy, nk, I would raise it to you now.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  308. “If that seems too hard–that is nothing to the real task of getting rid of your Self.”

    kishnevi – The word humility appears to be missing from nishi’s vocabulary.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  309. Do they become nasty because I am not monitoring them?

    Or is this some immutable law of blog nature?

    Patterico (92b338)

  310. Heisenberg’s Law of Unpleasantness.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  311. It is a force of the innertubes. It is inevitable.

    JD (8ded14)

  312. Jack Vance used the word “centripetal” in another context. Instead of broadening the discussion, we tend to spiral in.

    nk (db4a41)

  313. Did you like the song?

    The lyrics are untranslatable. You need to know Greek. But what do you think of the score?

    nk (db4a41)

  314. The only reason this thread became truculent is when the Trolls came on and did their inevitable circle jerk of the idiots – it never fails to degrade the discussion. I refer, of course, to the astounding wit of wheeler’s hairball and imadouchebag. No good deed goes unpunished.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  315. Patterico, this is why your site is an echo chamber.
    I said three true things.
    1. The Qur’an is built on the Bible and the Torah, and if jones burns a Qur’an, he burns parts of the Bible and the Torah.
    2. Islam is EGT immune to proselytization IN SITU, so when muslims are empowered to vote democratically, they vote for shariah. this is proven in Iraq, a democratic islamic state with shariah law in the constitution.
    3. A large serving of moral guilt is heading towards America and should arrive right before elections. And it will be packaged as media stories and television instead of dumped raw on the internet.
    These are facts.

    No one has offered argument, instead all i get is adhom.
    kishnevi, you are not my shayyk, and you do not get to reprimand me. My faith is none of your business.
    i don’t care what you believe, please extend me the same courtesy.
    But I do believe in the the truth, and I speak it.
    No one is interested in the truth here.

    bi la kayfah

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  316. Get thee to a nunnery, go!

    Fraud. In your heart you know what I and several others know: you besmirch a noble faith with your politicking and dishonesty and crudenesses.

    How you make the claims you do and look into a mirror amazes me. Go meditate on the faith you claim to hold dear. Start with the Three Pillars you say you revere, on this of all weekends.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  317. You would not know the truth if it crawled out your squeakhole and screamed at you, nishi/wheelers. Predicting something to happen in the future is now a fact? Oh, and you said about 100 things, so if you are willing to admit only 3 were true, that does not say much for your honesty. I will end by noting that you sourced none of the arsepulls that people asked about above.

    JD (8ded14)

  318. Liked Eddie Adams picture of Police General Loan, years later, he cried oops, but there was too much blood, to wipe off the stench of the lie. Like Cronkite having missed the import of Tet. A defeat in Afghanistan, brings us that most closer to a QST in Pakistan, and after that ‘katey bar the door’

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  319. JD

    I think it would be enlightening that you start actually formulating arguments, making predictions or explaining why, what experiences you have to be as authoritative as you are on almost any subject that comes up or on anyone else and their background or qualifications.

    Just curious,

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  320. How about this? Quit making stuff up. I don’t make predictions very often, as I cannot see the future. I am rarely authoritative on a subject, but it requires little effort to note when you are being less than honest. I need not lay out my qualifications to hold my opinions, nor does anyone else owe that to you. It is a BS construct. Did Breitbart get indicted yet?

    JD (8ded14)

  321. I think that very few things would enlighten you, EPWJ. Very few indeed.

    JD (8ded14)

  322. Now, I really do have to go to bed. Early day tomorrow.

    JD (8ded14)

  323. JD

    No, I think you can express opinions on opinions, maybe you would like to share your qualifications to do so, or is all this an “asspull”

    I can only assume that if you arenot forthcoming that there is a reason and will leave it alone

    I can see that you are reluctant to expose yourself to the same scrutiny as others

    I dont think too many people are surprized –

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  324. Also JD

    I dont dislike you, think poorly of you, nor want anything but good things for you and others here

    Opinions are opinions discussions are for everyone not the only one’s

    Except Obama he should hut up now

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  325. Eric,

    No need to inquire about people’s personal lives. It will be interpreted as a provocation. Please let it go.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  326. I can only assume that if you arenot forthcoming that there is a reason and will leave it alone

    JD’s clearly a very intelligent guy who wants people to be honest. There’s a reason he’s really nice to people who are honest, and he’s really pestering those who make stuff up.

    His reason for not sharing his personal information is likely two-fold.

    A) it’s an ad hom argument of no relevance

    B) it’s smart not to share personal info with weirdos. He probably has a family.

    I think you should stop personally attacking JD, and obey his great advice. This isn’t meant as an attack on you, EPWJ. I don’t think it matters what people’s opinion of you is. But I do think your arguments would be much stronger if the facts weren’t often quickly debunked.

    JD backed up his arguments without resorting to claiming he is elite and we must trust him. I’m not surprised you think this is a flaw, but it’s actually a strength and you should stop attacking him.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  327. Patterico, you can delete my last comment if you like. It’s not worth it.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  328. WC – 1. The Qur’an is built on the Bible and the Torah, and if jones burns a Qur’an, he burns parts of the Bible and the Torah.

    If you look at the Old Testement of the Bible and the Torah you will see they are the same. However if you look at the Koran, you will see that it is different from the Bible and Torah. They are not the same. While I do not advocate burning a Koran, burning a Koran would not be the same as burning the Bible or Torah.

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  329. 290.kishnevi
    do i care what you think of my sufism? again, i don’t give a flying fuck about what you believe. please extend me the same courtesy.

    Comment by wheeler’s cat — 9/12/2010 @ 3:44 pm

    — I don’t speak for kishnevi, but I’m pretty sure that he doesn’t give a flying fuck about what YOU believe; so you have nothing to worry about . . . he has already extended you that “courtesy”.

    Icy Texan (648f10)

  330. Can’t please everyone. Then again, everyone’s born somewhere they can be a patriot to.
    Comment by imdw — 9/12/2010 @ 5:02 pm

    — Patriotism is meaningless? Is that your point?

    Icy Texan (648f10)

  331. i don’t care what you believe, please extend me the same courtesy.
    But I do believe in the the truth, and I speak it.
    No one is interested in the truth here.

    Comment by wheeler’s cat — 9/12/2010 @ 9:25 pm

    — So you want the courtesy of us not caring what you believe, then you turn right around and insist that we be interested (which would imply some level of caring) in what you you are saying, because it’s the truth? Why should we care about what you say, truth or not, when YOU told us NOT to care about it?

    Icy Texan (648f10)

  332. Pat

    I havent attacked JD, he seems to have an expert opinion on every opinion, he seems to cast accusations of liar and dishonestly on issues when he clearly isnt formulating one himself

    In fact rarely have I disagreed with him, – but the ball is in his court – he knowingly established numerous expert positions so he can cast accusations of poor character on others

    EricPWJohnson (17f94c)

  333. Here is my formulated opinion. You are bugf@cknutz. You asserted that I have knowingly established numerous expert positions, which outside of being silly, is demonstrably not true. I challenge you to demonstrate any time that I have portrayed myself as an expert. Pointing out that you assert things as fact that simply are not true does not require an expert. Given your propensity for making wild unsubstantiated claims, it is absolute projection that you would accuse me of same. From #327, exactly what qualifications do you require of me to express my opinion? You don’t think too many people are “surprized” that I am not willing to give my personal information to a nutjob, and if I don’t give my personal information to a nutjob, it is a sign that I am cowardly or hiding something?

    Has Breitbart been indicted yet?

    Dustin – Thank you. I do not suffer fools lightly.

    JD (80be5e)

  334. I apologize to everyone. It is an acknowledged character flaw that I simply cannot not respond to that type of mendoucheity directed at me.

    JD (80be5e)

  335. JD, you need to just go to your lakehouse. Seriously, the fellow has been doing this sort of thing for how long? It’s just DCSCA without spellcheck.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  336. Eric Blair – Can you recall me holding myself out as an expert on … anything?

    JD (80be5e)

  337. I will give out personal information on JD. He has the perfect legs for the green plaid Campbell kilt. 😉

    nk (db4a41)

  338. Lighten up, Eric. You have friends here, don’t make yourself the bad guy. Like Dafydd said in another thread, we are not necessarilly “conservatives”. We are pro-freedom and anti-statist, whatever that makes us.

    nk (db4a41)

  339. No, JD, you have always been good about arguments from authority. But honestly, this character just likes to stir the pot. That is the goal.

    And it is good to see nk work toward folks getting along, despite differences. That is what Patterico would like to see, and it would indeed be nice to see.

    Now I need to find some mental floss to remove the kilt image that nk wrote.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  340. I could link to pictures if that would help 😉

    JD (80be5e)

  341. 2. Islam is EGT immune to proselytization IN SITU, so when muslims are empowered to vote democratically, they vote for shariah. this is proven in Iraq, a democratic islamic state with shariah law in the constitution.

    And now in Turkey.

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  342. Repeating gibberish over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over does not make it anything other than gibberish. Nishi/wheelers is stuck in one of its meme feedback loops.

    JD (80be5e)

  343. “Islam is EGT immune to proselytization IN SITU”

    It’s always tough to win converts when the penalty for apostatsy is death, if that’s what you mean.

    Dave Surls (6b4fc2)

  344. that is exactly what i mean.
    Christianity evolved proselytization to increase reps over judaism.
    on had to be born jewish.
    Islam evolved strategies to defend against christian proselytization.
    some of which are encoded in shariah law– harsh punishment for apostasy, no outmarriage of muslimahs, and proselytization is forbidden. so as long as muslims vote for shariah, christians cant proselytize in islamic countries.
    Christians evolved to proselytize, muslims evolved to be immune to proselytization. That is why America lost in Iraq, and is losing in Afghanistan.

    Eric Blair, the only argument you have is that i am insufficiently sufi for your tastes. why don’t you address the substance of my comments?

    wheeler's cat (32746f)

  345. I swear to Allah that nishi/wheeler’s is certifiably insane. I have never ever ever seen anyone that makes up things on a more routine basis than that thingie.

    People don’t address the “substance” because there is no there there. You are just making things up. It is one of your new memes that is stuck in a self-perpetuating feedback loop, yet again.

    JD (8ded14)

  346. “so as long as muslims vote for shariah”

    nishi – Help a brother out here. Prior to the late 20th century, how many Islamic countries actually held votes? Did Iran vote for shariah under the Shah? WTF are you talking about?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  347. Did Iraq vote for shariah under Saddam?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  348. “I swear to Allah that nishi/wheeler’s is certifiably insane.”

    She appears to be looney enough to believe that we booted the Baathists out of Iraq in order to convert the Muslims there to Christianity.

    And, that’s about as wacky as it gets.

    Dave Surls (7d7188)

  349. She appears to be looney enough to believe that we booted the Baathists out of Iraq in order to convert the Muslims there to Christianity.

    And, that’s about as wacky as it gets.

    Comment by Dave Surls

    There is no way anyone would seriously argue that.

    /tries to actually read a wheeler comment

    Oh… well I stand corrected. LOL. True, if Bush was trying to convert Iraqis into Christians, or cats, or Jews, we failed.

    However, when I read the AUMF’s 7 justifications, and consider how difficult the undertaking was, my chest fills with pride for some reason.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  350. A last word ..
    Pastor Terry Jones appearance on MSNBC …

    Brzezinski: We’ve really been debating whether or not to do this. … yada yada yada … So Jon Meacham just has a quick message for you, sir. Jon?
    Meacham: Pastor, I just wanted to–this is Jon Meacham. I just wanted to suggest that Jesus said … yada yada yada … in the name of New Testament theology.
    Brzezinski: All right, well said, Jon Meacham, and Pastor Terry Jones, we appeal to you to listen to that. And we don’t really need to hear anything else, so thanks.

    … that Pastor Terry Jones is some speaker. LOL
    This is what MSNBC passes for journalism ?

    Neo (7830e6)

  351. So, to recap: From 2006 to 2008, R. Leslie Deak worked as a “business consultant” to this super-secretive security contractor with ties to the CIA and counterterrorism forces, and in those same three years he also donated nearly $100,000 in seed money to the foundation now advocating the construction of the so-called Ground Zero Mosque.

    Interestingly, during the same three-year period during which the Deak Family Foundation was financing the Cordoba Initiative, Deak also donated a total of $101,247 to something called the National Defense University Foundation. The National Defense University is a network of war and strategy colleges and research centers (including the National War College) funded by the Pentagon, designed to train specialists in military strategy. The organization recently announced a November 5 dinner gala in honor of Defense Secretary and former CIA chief Robert Gates. Sponsors include Northrup Grumman, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and…the Patriot Defense Group.”

    Happy the Clown (d9dde2)

  352. What you have written here was wuite interesting.I’ll check your posts more often. Interesting info. I wish I could post messages in such interesting way. 🙂
    Tapety na pulpit

    MarianneXX (1648a4)


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