Patterico's Pontifications

9/7/2010

Feisal Rauf: Build My Mosque or Else

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:50 pm



Feisal Rauf says we must build the Ground Zero mosque, or we cede ground to radicals — unlike moderates like him who can’t say Hamas is a terror group and think the U.S. is complicit in the 9/11 attacks:

The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide. This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides. The paradigm of a clash between the West and the Muslim world will continue, as it has in recent decades at terrible cost. It is a paradigm we must shift.

Build our triumph mosque or the terror continues!

Thanks to dana.

101 Responses to “Feisal Rauf: Build My Mosque or Else”

  1. By all means, build the mosque … just build it farther away from Ground Zero.

    aunursa (6402f9)

  2. “Hey Ahmed, would you like to join us in jihad to strike at the Great Satan and it’s Zionist protectorate? I can offer you eternal honor in the presence of Allah and 72 virgins when you reach Paradise.”

    “No, Mahmoud, I hear that they built an ‘Islamic Cultural Center’ in New York near the Ground Zero site, so America must be a pretty decent place after all.”

    Is that how Rauf thinks it will go if he gets his way? That’s so dumb it’s bound to quickly become a liberal talking point.

    JVW (eccfd6)

  3. I’ll tell you what, when Baptists start crashing airliners into Mecca, we can talk.

    Stop making the problem about us, it is about you.

    (And before everybody goes ballistic, this is a logical thought game, not a condemnation of any religion).

    Ag80 (2f74a7)

  4. He really pretends we can just ignore everything we’ve learned about him, since May

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  5. Ag80, I think everyone understands your well made point.

    With that, the manipulation in this op-ed is stunning. Not only does he reframe the argument to make it essentially a good v. evil outcome (choose your side – there are only those two), but also fully puts the responsibility for any future attacks on innocent lives by radical Islamics squarely on the shoulders of that 65% of Americans protesting the building of the mosque.

    This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides.

    He even goes so far as to equate radical Islam with radical Americans who protest his planned actions.

    My take away from Feisal Rauf is that he believes not only are the 65% majority of Americans against the project, radicals, but they also hold the safety and security of their fellow Americans in their hands.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  6. He picked up etiquette lessons from Bloomberg, I mean when he said on Malaysian radio, that young
    Moslems have a tendency to conflagrate, he was very
    well intentioned

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  7. #3 Ag80:

    And before everybody goes ballistic,

    I’m kind of a mind that the problem isn’t everybody going ballistic, but rather a more select group of folks that share Feisal Rauf’s ideology.

    Ballistic Amish. Now that would be a sight, nu?

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  8. If you do not let the “moderate” Muslims win, the terrorists will have won.

    JD (8ded14)

  9. … Cordoba … Initiative.

    Lovely act on reconciliation.

    HeavenSent (e230a5)

  10. “President Obama and Mayor Michael Bloomberg both spoke out in support of our project. As I traveled overseas, I saw firsthand how their words and actions made a tremendous impact on the Muslim street and on Muslim leaders. It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims. Their statements sent a powerful message about what America stands for, and will be remembered as a milestone in improving American-Muslim relations,” he wrote.

    Does this make anyone else furrow their brow? Considering the overseas Muslim view of Jews, why would Bloomberg’s support matter one way or the other?

    It’s absolutely creeping me out that he makes a point to use such terms: tremendous impact, striking, powerful message, will be remembered.

    It’s as if he really, really wants us to know these words and actions made a difference to the Muslims overseas – and will continue to make that difference – as long as we comply. Is this what’s called nuance? Or something obscurely veiled?

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  11. Imam Rauf makes it clear once more that tolerance is a one way street with Islam.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  12. The Saudi government destroys Bibles as a matter of law. The owner is prosecuted. They are not destroyed by a private mosque in Saudi Arabia as a symbolic act – but by the government, by law. Respect is a one-way street for these barbarians. We are required to respect (fear) them, or else. It is getting close to the time for a proper war, one that will actually sort some of these issues out for a long time.

    william wilson (f6deac)

  13. I wonder how Imam Rauf intends for hos “community center” to commemorate 9/11 since he feels the U.S. was an accomplice. I would like him to splain some more about that aspect of the project.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  14. smarmy little bastard isn’t he

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  15. happyfeet – Butter does not melt in his mouf.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  16. The other key bits of BS are these:

    Our initiative is intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures.

    Our broader mission — to strengthen relations between the Western and Muslim worlds and to help counter radical ideology — lies not in skirting the margins of issues that have polarized relations within the Muslim world and between non-Muslims and Muslims. It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort.

    So he wants a confrontation at a mass grave site. If Rauf was a Christian, he’d be getting the Fred Phelps/ Bill Keller treatment from the Left (as well as everyone else), but since his particular brand of confrontation coincides with the New Left view of US foreign policy, he’s deemed a “moderate” by Our Offficial Betters. And the fact that the Cordoba House (again with glorifying the Caliphate) is in no way a joint multifaith, multinational effort won’t get mentioned.

    Karl (83846d)

  17. Karl – We cannot let their actual words, and our inherent Islamophobia to get in the way of their victory not-mosque.

    JD (8ded14)

  18. That just gets in the way of what their message is

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  19. “…It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort….”

    Hey, that sounds good! Rauf can start “cultivating understanding” by supporting Christian and Jewish services in Mecca.

    What? That’s different? Hmmm.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  20. Sadly, it is all part of their plan. They keep asking for a mile and so, due to insane PC coreectness, we cede an inch or two. But they never relent, nor will they ever. They are playing a waiting game. To them their reward does not come on this mortal coil anyway. Time and over-breeding is on their side.

    Gazzer (a2cc1c)

  21. Imam Rauf makes it clear once more that tolerance is a one way street with Islam.

    then mount up and everyone grab a weapon: its time for another “Thunder Run”.
    like the Germans, these asshats are either at your throat or at your feet.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  22. “#4
    He really pretends we can just ignore everything we’ve learned about him, since May
    Comment by ian cormac — 9/7/2010 @ 9:20 pm”

    You had better, or else!

    Hey, it worked for Obama.

    Before you dismiss his arguments as stupid you best remember he is addressing the people who elected Obama and responded to the Democrat’s crash of the economy by putting Nancy and Harry in charge.

    Machinist (497786)

  23. “We’re the ones we’ve been waiting for. Maureen Dowd said so! We’re so humble, we’re practically self-righteous about it! We complete you. It’s up to YOU to prove that you’re not haters; it is up to us to prove nothing. Pay no attention to those radical associations behind the curtain. We will, we will Iraq you! Everyone is welcome at our mos cultural center, even Salman Rushdie. No, really! In fact, we have a special room in the works, just for him.”

    Continued on next goat . . .

    Icy Texan (d62058)

  24. I imagined he returned because even the emirate princes, have realized this is a dry hole

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  25. Unrelated, but not really, this detail about Gianoullias;http://www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/2555870,CST-NWS-watchdogs02.article

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  26. Imam Rauf is such an enlightened “moderate,” he calls terrorism “a complex question.” That’s like stating that piracy, slavery and genocide are “complex questions.” Actually, Islamic terrorism is a simple concept. A bunch of fanatics believes that their religion gives them full license to butcher and torture innocents in supposed defense of the faith, or to spread the faith, or to avenge perceived grievances. It’s not a complicated issue at all.

    Guy Jones (f3f75b)

  27. Feisal Rauf says we must build the Ground Zero mosque, or we cede ground to radicals.

    And, Terry Jones, the pastor who intends to burn the Koran, says not even protests and death threats will deter him. “We feel it’s maybe the right time for America to stand up. How long are we going to bow down? How long are we going to be controlled by the terrorists, by radical Islam?”

    Anyone else suspect these two guys are cut from the same cloth?

    ropelight (d4bd23)

  28. Except the latter is a flake, and the former is very mainstream Salafi in his faith

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  29. feezul ralph can drop
    to knees and press swarthy lips
    to Colonel’s south end

    ColonelHaiku (3ec9fa)

  30. How Orwellian of the awesome Iman – and Bloomberg is one of the worst examples of the self – loathing Jew that you’ll ever find these days. Unless you’re looking at commentary regarding Israel in the MFM.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  31. Dmac – Bloomberg has a lot of skin in the game to protect, what with his business interests in the Middle East.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  32. We have already seen the traditional threatened murder and mayhem response from the Religion of Peace to the proposed Koran burning by Pastor Jones. Imam Rauf should be denouncing the threatened responses and terrorism rather than asking Americans to forego their rights of free speech and prove they are not haters. But no, Imam Rauf and his supporters expect to be treated differently because Islam is a dangerous religion.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  33. I wondered about that, Daley – but the man is already a billionnaire! I guess some people’s greed/megalomania genes are never satisfied.

    As for the pastor, he’s an unqualified asshat – but he has a right to do as he pleases, and until Islam starts shrugging their shoulders at these actions (Piss Christ, anyone?) it will always be viewed with mistrust and derision. The vids of the nutbags rioting in Pakistan over this pretty much says it all.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  34. Is the IRA a terror group?
    Does that make the Good Friday accords a mistake?

    Does the fact that Hamas won the last free and fair elections in Palestine (and would have probably won the most recent ones if they hadn’t been cancelled) mean nothing?

    Does the fact that Israel is called “a country” make it’s army less guilty of killing more women and children than Hamas by far mean nothing?

    Does 40 years of military occupation mean nothing?

    But Hamas has repeatedly offered a ten year truce at the 1967 borders, and it does a better job of maintaining shorter truces than Israel does.

    Why weren’t a million Germans thrown off their land in 1947?
    That would have been more logical. Meanwhile it’s cowboys and indians and you think cowboys are cool.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  35. 911familiesforamerica.org has a great photo at the top of their website. It shows billowing smoke, created from the debris and pulverized body parts of Americans rolling down the streets of lower Manhatten. If you look at the picture carefully, you will see two columns of the smoke turning to meet on a street a couple of blocks away from what was once the World Trade Center. These two columns are converging on the buildings that include the Burlington Coat Factory, new home of the Cardoba Victory Mosque Park51 Muslim Community Center.

    And in typical fashion, while we hear “Rauf has the Constitutional right to build his mosque” from the left, there is outrage that an idiotic minister wants to burn the Qu’ran, his Constitutional rights be damned.

    911familesforamerica.org has a great run-down on Rauf’s book, translated to English with a different title (I guess claiming Dah’wah from the Ground Zero Rubble was just not catchy enough for English speaking readers).

    Monsoor Ijaz, a prominent American-Muslim who worked for Bill Clinton trying to secure the handover of Osama bin Laden from the Sudanese, wrote an article about the proposed mosque, stating it was a bad idea and that Muslims had to tolerate the feelings of others if they wanted to live in America. A practicing Muslim, Ijaz is totally against this mosque, seeing it for what it really is, planting the flag of Islam over an area that was covered in body parts almost 9 years ago.

    Somewhere along the way, the lamestream press has decided that although there is no religion they actually back, slamming Christianity at ever opportunity, they can now get behind Islam. And of course, seeking to be able to report on the victims of the bigoted and intolerant Americans, Muslims have become the “new” black, victims to those in the press that will never defend the pastor’s right to burn the Qu’ran (First Amendment) but will rally around Rauf not bothering to check out his past. And after 8 years of slamming everything President Bush ever did, the media now says about Rauf “Well, Bush trusted him” as if that is somehow an opinion they can get behind.

    We know that the 9-11 hijackers were funded by wealthy Muslims that believe in a physical jihad. Odd that no one seems to be interested in the fact that another Muslim could purchase the Burlington Coat Factory for $4.3 million in cash, when just a few short years ago, he and his brother were waiting tables at New York eateries.

    Again, the left tells us that there is no need to look behind the curtain. There really is a wizard behind it.

    retire05 (95b130)

  36. I find it interesting that he associates the moorish conquest of spain as a time of great cooperation and understanding among the faith. This being of course also associated with conquest, persecution of christians and even martyrdom. i mean there is a catholic saint associated with resistance to the Moors.

    he also is now claiming it will be multi-faith. mmm, yeah.

    Once again, the dead giveaway is the name Cordoba. It is AT BEST an ambiguous message, where no ambiguity should have been allowed.

    Btw, notice he is claiming that obama is supporting the mosque. not just the right to build it, but supporting it, itself. Apparently he didn’t get the memo.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  37. I love that Karl is comparing his views to Fred Phelps.

    That’s a very good way to articulate what’s going on. Rauf’s not a victim of circumstance…he’s thought about finding a controversial and offensive way to promote his views, rubbing our tolerant laws in our faces, along with thousands of victims of the extreme Islamist terror that Rauf shares common cause with (he blames America for 9/11, after all).

    This guy is Fred Phelps.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  38. But this Jones fellow is too, he has even done events with Westboro

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  39. “I find it interesting that he associates the moorish conquest of spain as a time of great cooperation and understanding among the faith. This being of course also associated with conquest, persecution of christians and even martyrdom. i mean there is a catholic saint associated with resistance to the Moors.”

    I find it interesting that Jews don’t celebrate the reconquista.
    Care to tell me why?

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  40. Diogenes – thank you for articulating the Hamas position.

    JD (6ca166)

  41. JEWS!!!!!!! JEEEEEEWWWWWWWS!!!!!!!!! OH NO!!!!!!!

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  42. Diogenes

    Hey, quick question. Are you one of those people who claim that terrorism is generally born out of injustice. that is the palestinians bomb the isrealis because they took their land, or oppress them, ditto with the iraqis killing americans, and the taliban, and even al Qaeda?

    Yes or no, please.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  43. Does the fact that Hamas won the last free and fair elections in Palestine

    Does that fact that Hamas still will not recognize Israels’ right to exist mean anything to a noted scholar such as yourself?

    Does the fact that Israel is called “a country” make it’s army less guilty of killing more women and children than Hamas by far mean nothing?

    Does that fact that Hamas still will not recognize Israels’ right to exist mean anything to a noted scholar such as yourself?

    But Hamas has repeatedly offered a ten year truce at the 1967 borders

    Does that fact that Hamas still will not recognize Israels’ right to exist mean anything to a noted scholar such as yourself?

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  44. As always, it’s the Eviiiill JOOOOOOOS fault! The holocaust was fake, I tell you! All lies! 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy! Protocols of the Elders of Zion!

    Comment by Diogenes the Douche

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  45. I’ll ask again:
    Jews don’t celebrate the reconquista (the Catholic victory in Spain.)

    Can anyone here tell me why?

    Similarly can you tell me why the Palestinians should have acquiesced to losing 56 percent of their territory to a minority made up of recent immigrants, who made up barely a third of the population and who owned 7 percent of the land (in 1947)

    Can you tell me logically why a million Germans shouldn’t have been thrown off their land instead?

    Can you tell me if the IRA is a terrorist organization?
    If it is why is Gerry Adams welcomed by politicians in the US?
    Tell me why Adams met with Hamas and said “the voters give Hamas their legitimacy.”

    Tell me Christians, who else was expelled from Spain in 1492?

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  46. diogenes

    Okay, scrolling up, I can see the answer to my question. You blame Hamas acting like a bunch of savages on the evil Israelis.

    So riddle me this. Okay granted, the reconquista brought people into power people who later discriminated against jews even more than the moors. Fair enough. I don’t know how many “enlightenment” points the Moors get for discriminating less than the people who gave us the inquisition, but fine.

    So how is it then, that you don’t blame the Moors for radicalizing the Christians that way? I mean if the Palestinians are only resorting to anti-Semitic genocide attempts because of the awful oppression they face, what about the oppression the native spanish faced at the hands of the moors? If the Israelis are responsible for Hamas acting like a bunch of nazi idiots, then what is the responsibility of the moors for the reconquista, the inquisition and dare I say, even the excesses of the conquista of America?

    Of course the reality of it all is this. You are responsible for yourself. However badly you are treated there are some things you just don’t do. Liberals usually get this when they tell us that we shouldn’t be too mean to the terrorists we capture. And in truth conservatives generally agree that there are limits to what we should do, but we set the bar much lower than the left does. Lefties whine about a woman tricking a man into thinking he was unclean with menstrual blood (ink, really)and cutting off the water to his cell so he can’t become clean. But while conservatives can accept KSM being waterboarded, most conservatives aren’t for torture. They just have a different definition of the word.

    But suddenly when it is Palestinian killing jews, or less often when we discuss flying planes into buildings, liberals want to blame the victim for the attacks committed against them. So why is it exactly that you blame the jews for Hamas, but don’t blame the Moors for the reconquista and all the horrors that followed that?

    And bluntly the isreali Palestine thing is much simpler than most liberals care to admit. Before WWII jews were regularly slaughtered for daring to buy land in their historical homeland. During WWII, the grand mufti of Palestine went on Berlain radio to provide nazi propaganda, and asked hitler to open a death camp in Jerusalem. During the war for independence, and the six day war, where it was planes v. planes, tanks v. tanks, where in fact the jews were vastly outnumbered, the arab nations were explicitly dedicated to the genocide of all jews in the area and wasted valued military resources on purely civilian targets. It can be correctly supposed that had the arab nations been less eager to kill random innocent jews, but instead focused on crippling their military capacity, they might have won the wars and been able to carry out their planned genocide at their leisure.

    So why does Hams et. al. kill random civilians? Because they hate jews. And that hate predated any alleged oppression. Indeed, the so-called oppression they face is largely generated as a response to the constant attacks by terrorism. If the Palestinians loved life more than they hated jews, they could make something of themselves.

    And incidentally the hate doesn’t stop there. If the arab world really cared about the lives of Palestinians, they would be encouraging them to make peace. But because they are trash in the eyes of the arab world, they are encouraged to throw their lives away over this bullsh–. When a Hamas suicide bomber kills 17 civilians, the arabic world sees it as 18 pieces of human garbage disposed of. Its exactly like the King of England setting the Irish against the Scottish in Braveheart—because he hates both groups.

    [apologies if there are typos, etc. i am frankly very heavily medicated right now after surgery and other related issues.]

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  47. Diogenes

    > Similarly can you tell me why the Palestinians should have acquiesced to losing 56 percent of their territory to a minority made up of recent immigrants, who made up barely a third of the population and who owned 7 percent of the land (in 1947)

    Gee, funny what happens when you attempt genocide. People fight back.

    > Can you tell me logically why a million Germans shouldn’t have been thrown off their land instead?

    There wasn’t much throwing. Most of the land the isrealis took was bought and paid for. Most of the rest was land abandoned to make way for holocaust. Would you want to live next to someone who, when the chips were down, decided to get out of the way so your enemies could better slaughter your children without collaterally harming any Muslims?

    > Can you tell me if the IRA is a terrorist organization?

    Yes, it is.

    > If it is why is Gerry Adams welcomed by politicians in the US?

    I don’t believe that has happened since 9-11 and if it has, it is wrong. I will note that liberals are much more likely to be doing that sort of thing than conservatives, though. There is no doubt that people pandered to the IRA in a way that was shameful, but it was generally liberals who justified that. You know, like Ted Kennedy.

    > Tell me why Adams met with Hamas and said “the voters give Hamas their legitimacy.”

    Oh, granted, Hamas is 100% representative of the people of Palestine, or at least their part of it. Which is why I have no sympathy for the Palestinian people. They voted for war and genocide. They can’t whine that they are not being treated as partners in peace.

    So Hamas is a legitimately representative group of savage thugs who should be shot on sight. Happy?

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  48. Aaron
    I could say you seem not to know much history, but beginning like this it’s worse than that:
    “Okay granted, the reconquista brought people into power people who later discriminated against jews…”

    The Reconquista was in 1492. The expulsion of Jews from Spain was ordered immediately.

    I recommend anyone here read Haaretz even a little bit.
    You’ll know more than you do now. What you know now is nothing.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  49. I smell troll. It’s just a game with these people. Diogenes was many things, but he would have never made such a cynical to get into a blog fight.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  50. Thank you for the jooooooooooo hating zionist conspiracy perspective, Diogenes.

    JD (6ca166)

  51. diogenes

    So your only quibble with what i said was this?

    > The expulsion of Jews from Spain was ordered immediately.

    Yes, and even immediately after is still later.

    Why don’t you deal with the substance of the issue instead of biting my ankles. Why don’t you blame the Moors for all of that? Why is it that you infantilize Palestinians as being incapable of controlling themselves, but not the Reconquistadors? The fact is your commentary is functionally hypocritical in a manner that suggests bigotry–toward christians, toward jews and toward even muslims with your “soft bigotry of lowered expectations.” You don’t expect the palestinians to act like civilized people, because you don’t actually seem to think they are capable of it.

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  52. A.W. – I blame the Joooooooooooooooooooooooooooos. So does Diogenes.

    JD (8ded14)

  53. To Diogenes the Hater it’s ALL about moral equivalence. “How come you don’t hold the Jooooosss to the ‘same standard’?”

    Gee, I don’t know. It’s probably for the same reason that you peel an orange, but don’t peel an apple.

    Icy Texan (d62058)

  54. Can you tell me logically why a million Germans shouldn’t have been thrown off their land instead?

    Are you really that ignorant, Diogenes, of the actual history of post WWII Europe?

    Yep, I guess you are.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  55. toward even muslims with your “soft bigotry of lowered expectations.”

    Thanks, AW.

    That’s a huge point that I wish people would recognize.

    When our country expects one level of conduct from Israel, and another of her enemies, it’s absurd and insulting. It’s almost cement for backwardness.

    Ace was noting how it’s said to be wrong to blame all Muslims for a few (true). And that some want to condemn all America for any isolated intolerance (such as Koran burning, I suppose).

    It all goes back to that point in 2003 where so many on the left (I would ‘talk’ to them at protests about this) said Arabs aren’t a democratic type of people and it’s not worth the effort to attempt to impose our system. Bush believed in them, and so did I.

    It’s the opposite of pretending Rauf is some kind of good example. Those people with purple fingers are the examples.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  56. Three quarters of a millions Palestinians were thrown off their land.
    Why?
    Where was your family 2000 years ago?
    The Palestinians are also the descendants of the ancient population. Even Ben Gurion admitted that. Many of todays Palestinians are descendants are the descendants of Jews. Why should they be forced to make room for the descendants of those who left. [and israeli historiography makes clear that there was in fact no “exodus” after the destruction of the temple. People drifted away over the course of a few centuries. But did you know that that the first governor of Muslim Jerusalem was Jewish?

    That you can refer to a (nonexistent) attempt at genocide of Jews in the middle east while ignoring the actual genocide in Europe just makes my point.

    “But How Does Hezbollah Feel About A New Synagogue?

    Hariri’s successor, Fouad Siniora, had no objections to the plan. But how would the radical Islamic group Hezbollah, and Israel’s sworn enemy, feel about it all? For some time now, no political decisions have been made in Lebanon without the approval of the influential Shiite militia. In September 2008, a spokesman of the organization said: “We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel.” And so, in July 2009, the renovations began.

    Aaron, after 40 years of military occupation and the settlements expanding, no matter what; after Netanyahu being caught on tape saying that Oslo was always a sham and would not stop the building; after the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians and a few dozen Israelis; after ethnic cleansing and Israeli terror (and the European immigrants were the first terrorists in the middle east) I’ve lost patience with this argument. The Israelis are the ones who started this, in the name of a racially defined mini-state on stolen land. Your ignorance of history is sad.

    But still if I have to lay the blame, I reserve most of my anger for Christian Europe.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  57. Sadat as was Nasser were with the resistance against
    the British, during WW2, Haj amin Husseini was Hitler’s point man in the Middle East recruiting Moslems for the Balkans to the Syria, and he worked
    with Eichmann in Hungary among other places

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  58. Diogenes, just because people do not agree with your misrepresentations does not make them ignorant. Especially since they are very familiar with your misrepresentations, having heard them for years.

    Meanwhile, you really don’t know how many Germans were expelled from their land post WWII? Try several orders of magnitude more than the Palestinians claims.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  59. DtD thinks that the Muslims were just swell when they tried to conquer and subjucate all of Europe, and that Charlemagne and Charles Martel were evil Christianist oppressors. What an ingnat Douche.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  60. DtD also never answered my original questions, because that would cause his underwear to crawl up his arse.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  61. I am curious as to some of the great Palestinian leaders are throughout history. When did they become a nation/state? When did they get out from under the Ottoman and then British mandates?

    In short, I am wondering why Diogenes hates the jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos.

    JD (8ded14)

  62. Diogenes:

    Would you mind going back to SDMB where you belong. I mean, you’re welcome to stay here, but you’ll get more lefty, echo-chamber props there. They love you in Great Debates.

    Thanks in advance.

    Ag80 (5c7ef4)

  63. Look out DtD, the evil Christ – ers are coming after you, they’re going to make you…do nothing!

    Hey, and why did Arafat screw his own countrymen out of hundreds of millions of dollars? Is he your kind of awesome Palestinian leader, or did you have some other sick and twisted murderous nutbag in mind? Did you admire his only big and tough military action, when he came up from the beach with his henchman and slaughtered an entire unarmed Israeli family, just for sport? How about that brave and courageous massacre of the Israeli athletes in Munich, which he somehow missed? Awesome leader, no question.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  64. “Meanwhile, you really don’t know how many Germans were expelled from their land post WWII? ”

    I should have been clearer. I don’t have much sympathy for the Sudeten Germans and their ilk. But you seem to have more sympathy for them than for Palestinians. Go figure.

    European Jews knew that Europeans didn’t want them around. When you admit that they’re be some progress. But you don’t want us around either. When you admit that, that’ll be real progress.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  65. hezbollah guys get
    big surprise when find out their
    seven two virgins…

    just a herd of fast running goats

    ColonelHaiku (3ec9fa)

  66. America not
    want Jooos around? somebody
    need a hug real bad

    ColonelHaiku (3ec9fa)

  67. Feezul Ralph nothin’
    but a slumlord a walkin’
    negligent landlord

    ColonelHaiku (3ec9fa)

  68. I admit that you are an asshat, Diogenes. Guess you cannot or will not answer those simple questions, huh?

    JD (8ded14)

  69. Diogenes, not sympathetic to the Sudeten Germans? They were less excited at being allied to the Nazis than Palestinians were. Well, that’s special … but its only perhaps a quarter of all the Germans that were expelled from their homes post WWII – estimates upwards of twelve million.

    But you go on with your false believes of the uniqueness of Palestinians.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  70. “Three quarters of a millions Palestinians were thrown off their land…”

    LOL.

    Kinda like the Brits got thrown off “their” land in India.

    Boo hoo. Too bad, so sad. Life is tough when you’re a Muslim imperialist/colonialist, etc., etc.

    Dave Surls (7f099f)

  71. But you don’t want us around either.

    You’re a bigger whiner than our POTUS, not that that’s such a surprise. But you’re wrong about not wanting you around – with braying jackasses such as yourself unable to keep your blowhole shut for more than a nanosecond, no doubt the master plan for the eventual Islamisation of America will FAIL.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  72. It’s true, gaining submission to Allah in the information age is completely impossible. The fear we have isn’t that OBL will win on his terms. That’s absurd. But a lot of these folks can do a lot of damage trying.

    America won’t be Islamified. It will wallow in PC confusion a lot, though. I noticed Palin compared the Koran burning to the GZM. That’s clarity. They are pretty similar concepts to me.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  73. “Three quarters of a millions Palestinians were thrown off their land…”
    LOL.
    Kinda like the Brits got thrown off “their” land in India.”

    Woo boy, that’s a good one. Or just weird. More like the Brits getting thrown out of England but thanks for playing.

    “They were less excited at being allied to the Nazis than Palestinians were”

    Sudeten Germans were in fact more Nazi than most. You can look it up.

    As far as the Palestinians are concerned they were probably less pro Nazi than the Irish.

    Kinda like the Brits got thrown off “their” land in India.”

    I guess that was some sort of FU… an “I know you are but what am I” sort of thing. Otherwise it’s so clueless I don’t know what to say. You can’t be that uneducated.
    Can you?
    Who am I kidding. Sure you can.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  74. You have several questions posed of you, Diogenes the douchenozzle. Given your superior knowledge in your overinflated self-image, it should be damn simple for you to answer them.

    JD (8ded14)

  75. Look, Diogenes has a very specific goal in mind by posting here.

    He thinks he is the sharpest tool in the shed, but mainly he just wants to be recognized for something or the other.

    I don’t know how he stumbled upon Patterico, but trust me, he’s a one-trick pony.

    Hate is a hard thing to live with.

    Ag80 (5c7ef4)

  76. Ag80 – If it needs recognition, I will recognize that he is the biggest mendoucheous twatwaffle I have encountered today.

    JD (8ded14)

  77. Indeed, he is, although loved by many, I assure you.

    Ag80 (5c7ef4)

  78. I am pretty sure DtC has been here before under a different name.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  79. “More like the Brits getting thrown out of England but thanks for playing.”

    LOL. Nice try, moron.

    Arabic-speaking Muslims are invaders, imperialists and colonialists whose only claim to Palestine (or Egypt, or Syria, etc.) is that they were once strong enough to take it by force from Christians.

    They have no legitimate claim on those lands other than might makes right…and they ain’t mighty enough to hold onto what they stole.

    Same as the British in India, except the Brits were much better behaved than Muslims.

    Now, be a good lil’ lefty and fetch off to kindergarten where you belong.

    Dave Surls (4234db)

  80. I have nothing to add to this conversation I just need to post here so my next post doesn’t accidentally use my sock puppet handle from the post above.

    I take that back, I have one comment: should all those who said that the issue in the Ground Zero Mosque is that they have a first amendment right to build there take the same position relative to the Koran book burning?

    Sean P (6f6c60)

  81. Diogenes the slack-jawed yokel who buys all kinds of anti-semitic myths.

    > Three quarters of a millions Palestinians were thrown off their land.

    That is not a factual statement.

    > Aaron, after 40 years of military occupation and the settlements expanding, no matter what

    Another incorrect statement.

    > after the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians and a few dozen Israelis

    Actually more isreali civilians have died in the intefadas than the Palestinians. But don’t let the facts get in the way of some good ole fashioned jew hate. /sarcasm.

    > after ethnic cleansing and Israeli terror

    Ah, the old “the jews became the Nazis” smear. I suppose next you will cite the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    > . The Israelis are the ones who started this, in the name of a racially defined mini-state on stolen land.

    Which fully justifies the murder of children at Sbarro’s pizza. I mean in fact your statement is false, but even if it was true, how exactly is it that its okay to kill children. What did they do?

    Oh, right, because they are jews, right? I mean in our very constitution, in the Treason clause it has a funny phrase, stating that there shall be no corruption of the blood. That referred to the punishment of a person’s family for misconduct of one member. So the founders said even Benedict Arnold’s son could not be held responsible on any level for his father’s conduct.

    But you would justify intentionally going up to a baby’s crib and shooting him in the head (Palestinian terrorists have done that) in the name of “justice.” And indeed, you would justify the use of palestinian children as young as 7 as suicide bombers. You would justify the use of people suffering from down’s syndrome as suicide bombers. You would justify “Death Cult Mickey Mouse” on official Palestinian television telling kids to dream of martyrdom. You would justify a Palestinian man raping a Palestinian woman, telling her she had sinned by being raped and the only way to clense herself of her sin was martyrdom.

    And then you get all high and mighty about how intolerant the Spanish were? I mean, they were, but given your apparent anti-semitism, I am having trouble understanding why you even object. I mean if you hate jews so much, shouldn’t you be supportive of their persecution, Mein Fuhrer?

    And you never bothered to answer or even retort to my point. If injustice justifies cruelty, and relieves them of the moral responsibility for acting like civilized people, then aren’t the Moors responsible for the bad behavior of the Spanish? Why is it the Palestinians are apparently the ONLY PEOPLE in the world that get infantilized in your mind?

    Dustin

    > It all goes back to that point in 2003 where so many on the left (I would ‘talk’ to them at protests about this) said Arabs aren’t a democratic type of people and it’s not worth the effort to attempt to impose our system. Bush believed in them, and so did I.

    Right. These are the same liberals who claim that all the strongmen in the world are created by the United States and say this in a denouncing sort of way. But then if you kick a dictator down and try to bring democracy to the region, and they get mad at you, too. And mind you the same people who apparently believe some people to be genetically incapable of living in a democracy, simultaneously believes in unrestrained immigration. I mean I believe in a controlled border, but I also want a lot of immigrants to come here, legally, as long as we know who is coming, but if I believed for one moment that arabs were uniquely incapable of living in democracy, then I would shut them out, just as sub argued.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  82. “Actually more isreali [sic] civilians have died in the intefadas than the Palestinians.”
    You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Here are the statistics courtesy of B’Tselem. The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, an organization founded by “Jooos” like me.
    “Established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members.”

    just sad.

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  83. Diogenes

    > You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

    > Here are the statistics courtesy of B’Tselem.

    Actually you are wrong. Read Dershowitz’s book. And sorry, but i don’t trust your little organization.

    And indeed, who counts as civilians? These animals pretend to be civilians all the time. that’s one of the reasons why it is proper to call them terrorists. They are not soldiers, because they fight with no honor.

    But do explain to me why its okay to shoot babies in the head because they happened to be jewish. I would really love to hear the non-anti-semitic response.

    I don’t buy for a second you are Jewish. You’re just like those people you used to hear where they claim that they are true conservatives or republicans but are angry at the party for various reasons that sounds like any liberal’s talking points. Only this time you bring Hams talking points.

    I mean I suppose it is possible for a Jew to buy into that much anti-semitism, but I figure that is about as likely as a black dude joining the KKK.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  84. Moby-joooooooooooooo is a new one. How quaint. And self-loathing.

    You still have a handful of questions directed to you that up to now you have refused to answer, Diogenes. Why is that?

    Fred Phelps (073107)

  85. A.W. That would require an incredible amount of self-loathing, no? Moby-jew is a new one.

    Diogenes – There are several questions above that, so far, you have refused to answer. Why is that?

    JD (073107)

  86. It looks like the comments are broken here, so this is the last response I should be able to make for a while.

    JD I gotta quibble with you. The idea of moby jew did enter my brain, but my understanding a moby is a person who pretends to belong to a group and then says racist or otherwise extreme things to discredit the group. Like “I am a tea partier and I oppose this n—-r president.” Something like that. The person pretending to be something they are not to try to immunize them from criticism is a different internet animal. As in, “I am a good conservative, but gee this obama guy is doing a good job!”

    Dustin

    I saw that too. Btw, if you check my blog i have both the imam and obama being major hypocrites when the koran burnign issue came up.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  87. btw, i have to say that James Taranto of the Best of the Web put it even better than Patterico:

    > What was initially marketed as a gesture of conciliation has turned into a protection racket: Give Rauf what he wants, he tells us, or there’s no telling what those angry Muslim extremists might do. Rauf’s outrageous comments ought to erase all doubt that the construction of the Ground Zero mosque would be a victory for terrorism.

    Harsh, but true.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  88. Settler throwing wine on a muslim.

    It’s called “the occupation” for a reason.

    “… The settlement population is expanding at about three times the national rate, rising from about 130,000 in 1994 to about 300,000 in September 2009 — up 65,000 since 2004. There is little difference between the population growth rate west and east of the Separation Wall. According to government figures regarding plans in 2009 for new settlement housing units, 28% lay east of the Wall….”

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  89. There is an interesting parallel between Rauf and the Palestinians.

    They both claim the benefits of being treated as civilized peoples but their favored tactic is violence and the threat of it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  90. Yes, but see Rauf is on our side. He’s just giving us a friendly reminder of what those bad Muslims — the ones with whom he has no connections whatsoever, he promises . . . cross his heart and hope to meet some virgins — might do if we don’t allow “the one we’ve been waiting for”[copyright Dowd] to carry out his plans.

    Icy Texan (d61420)

  91. Given that the IRA is a terrorist organization than I guess that makes the Pope like bin Laden. And he went to a Nazi Madrassa and joined the Hitler youth.
    I don’t trust Catholics, do you?

    Diogenes the Cynic (7b734d)

  92. One wonders if Dig the Colors thinks that he is actually adding anything substantive to the conversation.

    Icy Texan (d61420)

  93. Self awareness is not his strong suit

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  94. Self-medicating, more likely.

    Icy Texan (d61420)

  95. So basically, Rauf claimed he is the only one standing between us and the pitchforks, huh? No wonder Obama likes this guy.

    Sean P (2e471f)

  96. How did you come to that conclusion?

    Meredith Broman (e7b4b8)

  97. So true. It really does matter, whether you like to think so or not.

    Tangela Appleberry (3ab2aa)

  98. Well who’s to say they’re wrong? Seems like a matter of opinion to me.

    Financial Slave (850f89)

  99. I have to disagree. My relatives and I have had totally different experiences.

    Gino Flanery (c7c21f)


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