Patterico's Pontifications

9/3/2010

Twitter War with Weigel!

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:21 am



The background is found in last night’s post in which I showed how Weigel misrepresented a post by Allahpundit concerning the Discovery Channel gunman.

Briefly, Allahpundit said: “I’m not going to blame the actions of a nut on all lefties and environmentalists.” Weigel turned that into “I am subtly hinting that the gunman was representative of the other team.”

I thought that was bullshit and said so. I linked my post on Twitter. Hilarity ensued. In essence, I pressed my argument with fact and logic, and Weigel responded by accusing me of grubbing for traffic.

The transcript is below. (I have removed the places where we use “@patterico” and “@daveweigel” or otherwise use an “@” symbol to refer to each other or another Twitter user such as allahpundit. That’s a Twitter convention that confuses the reader when the conversation is shown in this format. Otherwise, what you see below is exactly what transpired.)

It’s a classic internet debate: content on one side vs. ad hominems and evasions on the other. Enjoy.

PATTERICO: daveweigel smears allahpundit http://is.gd/eSymo

WEIGEL: Pathetic. My reference was to “I will, however, be sure to remind them of this the next time they pull that on the right.”

PATTERICO: allahpundit said: “I’m not going to blame the actions of a nut on all lefties and environmentalists”

WEIGEL: If you’re desperate for HotAir traffic, just ask for it. Don’t pretend you’re doing journalism by misreading me.

PATTERICO: I’ll ignore the juvenile insult and simply ask you to explain how I am misreading you.

PATTERICO: You took an explicit refusal to stereotype the left, and called it an implied attempt to stereotype the left.

WEIGEL: Yeah, sorry, not going to indulge you. Pick a fight over something interesting.

PATTERICO: You’re the fellow picking fights with grade-school insults. I’m the one engaged in criticism of an unfair post.

PATTERICO: I’m perfectly content to let others decide why you’re not offering a defense of your smear of allahpundit

WEIGEL: If you think this is worth discussing, just email me. The post has been up for a day and Allah hasn’t complained.

PATTERICO: Two points. First: your post unfairly criticizing him was public; what’s wrong with noting its flaws in public?

PATTERICO: Second, allahpundit may not choose to publicly dispute every unfair criticism of him, but that does not mean it’s not unfair.

PATTERICO: The fact is, he updated his post to respond to (and correct) a criticism that was essentially identical to yours.

PATTERICO: So, to imply that his silence as to your post is somehow acquiescence to your unfair interpretation is unwarranted.

WEIGEL: You’re trying to grub traffic by starting a Twitter spat. I get it. I just find it uninteresting.

PATTERICO: You’re trying to mask the flaws in your post by making silly personal accusations. I refuse to descend to your ad hominems.

PATTERICO: I have defended you before. I have seen you be honest. This evasion-through-insult tactic does not become you.

WEIGEL:

PATTERICO: I doubt very much that allahpundit was going to link my post anyway, but let me make it clear: I don’t want a link.

PATTERICO: What I want is for someone I have respected at times to reflect on how he has mistreated someone.

WEIGEL:

PATTERICO: Real journalists respond to criticism with facts. By that measure, you have little basis to claim the title of “journalist.”

WEIGEL:

WEIGEL:

WEIGEL:

Remind me again why I ever defended this guy?

P.S. You could enjoy such goings-on routinely if you were only to subscribe to my Twitter feed.

UPDATE: Weigel has apologized to Allahpundit and myself.

54 Responses to “Twitter War with Weigel!”

  1. Send Weigel some Clearsil and a juice box. I think he projecting his own issues.

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  2. This guy is akin to a tsetse fly on an elephant’s rear end. Swat him away and take a dump on him, and forgettaboutit.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  3. I told you so 😉

    JD (0d0a58)

  4. That exchange should eliminate any doubt that Weigel is a phony.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  5. And remember, Patterico, Mr. Weigel knows what Allahpundit really meant. As I say, these guys are just projectionists. They see in others what they do themselves…and they don’t seem to like it!

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  6. Sorry, I am utterly unable to remind you of why you defended the guy.

    BTW, note that he accuses Pat of trolling for HA traffic, while not-so-subtly trolling for AP to respond to his misrepresentation at HA.

    Karl (83846d)

  7. Ah, but Karl…that’s different!

    Eric Blair (58b0cf)

  8. Someone once noted, in a very mean way, that Weigel look like someone set his face on fire and then used golf spikes to stomp out the flames. Clearly that has nothing to do with total and complete lack of competence as a JournoList.

    JD (0d0a58)

  9. You defended him because you thought his douche-ery was still redeemable.

    You were wrong.

    Mitch (890cbf)

  10. Weigel is a putz in this exchange. No thanks on twitter for me. I probably waste too much time as it is!

    VOR2 (847e86)

  11. Twitter is of the devil.

    JD (0d0a58)

  12. Right, creepy stalker boy. You really are a pathetic piece of garbage.

    JD (0d0a58)

  13. Patterico – I refuse to be charitable to a person with as creepy and dishonest of a history as that creepy stalker-ish person.

    JD (0d0a58)

  14. It evidences that Dave Weigel is still the immature arrogant young turk he was before the Journolist implosion. Clearly hasn’t matured after a public walk through the fire. But he’s still young and will no doubt have plenty of opportunities to be brought low by his own arrogance and figure it out.

    I’ve seen all I need to see.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  15. Leftists will be leftists.

    At bottom it’s a mere disposition towards things, rather than a considered view of the world.

    Which is a way of saying, They can’t help it.

    d. in c. (77a0b6)

  16. 1) When somebody says something controversial and you want to say something about it, say what you want to say. When they respond with ad hominem etc. you be the first to identify it and then say you will decline to respond until something substantive is said. And then DECLINE TO RESPOND until then. In the example above, when Weigel quits responding, Patterico keeps going.

    2) When accused of grubbing for traffic, turn that around by noting he wouldn’t say that if he didn’t believe it would improve your traffic. Say “so? Traffic is good :)” Apparently people love controversy, so that should not be a surprise. Congratulate him on his perceptivity. Blogs are about influence, fun and money if there is enough traffic. For the first time ever, I’ve included my little blog url to hopefully grub some traffic. As far as I can tell, a maximum of five people have ever read it. I wrote a post on how Charles Johnson believes in intelligent design. After that post traffic increased by, get this: 0. Patterico has it good 🙂

    3) I think some people don’t have enough spine to call a spade a spade. They say “not evil, just wrong”. You argue with them because you think they don’t understand how things work and they don’t seem to get it. Over and over and over. If after that they still don’t get it, you should be open to the idea that they do understand how things work and they want to do what they say they want to do anyway. They DO know the consequences and those consequences are bad. That’s evil, not wrong. If you’ve misjudged, then they are truly idiots and we need neither idiots or evil people in elected office or in the pundit class.

    4) If you are going to put in a defense of someone who has been smeared, make it short and to the point. If the smearor doesn’t answer your point, leave it alone. If the smearee wants to defend himself, he will. If the smearee doesn’t respond he may have already decided this guy isn’t worth his time. Why fight somebody who has little credibility?

    5) Reframe your problem. When I post on a forum, I post for a reason, and several times it is to post something for which I have no intention of discussing. If you really want to have some fun, do that sometime on another blog and watch the others blather away until they are blue in the face when you don’t respond. Its entertaining the first couple of times, but it gets old watching fools needing to prove they are fools.

    6) This blog was fine the way it was. Just because you have attracted trolls is no reason to change things. It just means you are more influential now, and people are coming to try and undermine it. That is a sign of success. If you wish to improve the discussion in the comments, you may wish to have moderators moderate the comments. For a blog that does this successfully, see wattsupwiththat.com a leading science site that deals with climate change from the point of view of people who are skeptical of AGW theories.

    7) Good luck.

    Jeff M (0204be)

  17. I’ve seen the picture of you at PW, JD….glass houses.

    Comment by timb

    I’ve had lunch with JD. I think you need new glasses, Tim.

    Weigel is the guy who lost his job. All of these Journolist types are kids, creepy looking kids if you ask me. I keep thinking of Albert Brooks in Broadcast News. I think they were all bullied in school. Since they are afraid of guns, they think trashing people in newspapers and the internet is revenge

    I have news for them. They just look like creepy kids.

    Mike K (d6b02c)

  18. I like the part where you keep going after he tells you your point is uninteresting.

    OMGSharia (33ae78)

  19. content on one side vs. ad hominems and evasions on the other

    As is usual with the internet, both sides preach to their choirs.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  20. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again (I’m hoping for it to catch on) I call him Wiggle cause he’s such a little WORM!

    jakee308 (e1996a)

  21. What “BabyDave” Weigel says or thinks is of no interest to me. I say just ignore his self-centered, uninteresting, poorly written and juvenile bleatings. I am embarrassed for myself, and for others who hold degrees from Northwestern that this lightweight apparently somehow managed to graduate from there and puts it on his resume.

    elissa (5953ce)

  22. I would love to ask Dave Weigel why we as readers should take him seriously as a journalist, when he

    a) assumed the worst about an inquiry made by an intelligent reader;

    b) projected in his assumption (clearly Patterico is simply trolling for a Hot Air link because that’s the only reason Weigel would ever make such an inquiry);

    c) showed an interest in only protecting himself and his ego but no interest in clarifying his work with readers by providing evidence, discussion, or explanation.

    This all leads me to believe Mr. Weigel is simply about Mr. Weigel, and not presenting a sound and concise story to readers.

    Again Mr. Weigel, why should we take you seriously?

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  23. I deleted timb’s comment, JD.

    Patterico (599a77)

  24. When someone ran a collage with photos of the various JournoList members, my response was that I wished that they were my competition at singles bars. These goons probably think that the greatest technological advance of the 21st century is “Halo 3.” And Weigel is as good a choice as any for poster boy for this immature collection of over-promoted (both professionally and culturally)diaper-wetters.

    Dagwood (d27524)

  25. I think part of Weigel’s problem is his relatively young age. I still don’t quite get how the Ezra Kleins and Dave Weigels of the world are in prominent positions of analyzing American politics. These guys are in their 20’s with very little seasoning in life and they are the ones we are to look to to shape and mold the public discourse of politics?

    Age shouldn’t be the deciding factor, but there is certainly something to be said for experience – both in life and in the profession, and that means as much if not more than the degree from Northwestern.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  26. Weigel sees nefarious, partisan attempts to inflict damage on the opposition in everything because that’s what he and his JournoList pals engage in.

    OxyCon (ab857b)

  27. Dana has totally nailed something major.

    I don’t know what’s with all these punky kids pretending to be authoritative, but these folks just don’t have the life history to be what they pretend to be, and that leads to a lot of the problems.

    Dave could have just admitted he was wrong. Hell, he very easily could have replaced the link with a better example that serves his argument. He can’t pick his battles because this isn’t about the argument, but about his ego. His unproven, young ego.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  28. Initially I had genuinely hoped that Weigel’s getting fired and the exposure of the mendacity of the jourolisters via their foolish emails would serve as a valuable “teachable moment” for these obviously not ready for prime time writers. Unfortunately, it appears that almost the opposite has occurred. In Dave’s case he appears to have become even more slimy and duplicitous and bitter and coarse. He seems even more likely to project and make up stuff– and when caught, to lash out brashly at his critics rather than looking for answers within.

    elissa (5953ce)

  29. I still don’t quite get how the Ezra Kleins and Dave Weigels of the world are in prominent positions of analyzing American politics.

    Because those who hired them fear they’re out-of-touch dinosaurs (right), and that hiring kindergarten pundits will bring them credibility in this bloggy new world (wrong).

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90)

  30. . I am embarrassed for myself, and for others who hold degrees from Northwestern that this lightweight apparently somehow managed to graduate from there and puts it on his resume.

    Elissa, I’ve met far too many grads from Medill and U of I via testy e – mail exchanges after they’ve embarrassed themselves yet again in the newspapers and on the TV screens here. One day I’ll tell you about a long – running battle with one of the more high – profile grads from there, I took issue with his constant harping/Bush bashing on global warming in a sports column. His reaction to being challenged on anything appearing in his columns was typical. I later got into it with one of the distinguished professors from there who claimed that since he was a highly – degreed person anyone who wasn’t at the same level could not possibly argue a point coherently with him.

    Dmac (d61c0d)

  31. Patterico: You’re right on the merits. But the fact that you have to transcribe the tweets here is satisfactory proof to me that Twitter is a complete waste of time. Let me explain all the reasons why I think that — SQUIRREL!

    (Sorry, got distracted. Where was I?)

    Beldar (ce0136)

  32. “WEIGEL: If you’re desperate for HotAir traffic, just ask for it. Don’t pretend you’re doing journalism by misreading me.”

    Go away already, you pathetic little Journopimp.

    Federal Dog (8dc08a)

  33. I’ve found that the best way to convince someone to take your criticism seriously is to make fun of his chronic skin condition. Stay classy, anonymous commenters!

    I was definitely too dismissive of Patterico last night, and I’ll respond today — I was caught in a very busy 24 hour period and blew this off too rudely.

    David Weigel (3a6059)

  34. you know who has a chronic skin condition is Kurt Cobain I bet

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  35. Weigel – It is worse to have bad manners or to be a dishonest JournoLister?

    JD (9bc648)

  36. Dave – I apologize for being rude.

    JD (9bc648)

  37. For all of his chest thumping Dave Weigel ran the other way. The internet can be a cruel place.

    Birdbath (8501d4)

  38. JournoList was shameful cause it was a perversion of journalism and it a lot increased people’s cynicism about how gay journalism is. Journalism is gayer than vibram fivefingers.

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  39. “I’ve found that the best way to convince someone to take your criticism seriously is to make fun of his chronic skin condition.”

    Good tip for the future.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  40. Weigel did not like the fact that Patterico was committing an act of journalism.

    JD (9bc648)

  41. Stay classy, anonymous commenters!

    He’s got to be kidding.

    I have no idea what skin condition he has, but I know he’s often trying to smear entire political movements by focusing on fringe (real and imagined), while projecting this onto someone who was arguing for the opposite. AP was arguing for a level of class that Dave completely rejects in his work.

    I guess anyone who was a party to Journolist and didn’t break the truth of the many sick things those folks were up to has such a twisted version of the entire enterprise of journalism that I shouldn’t even bother. But. Dave’s BS charge could have been corrected quickly. As in 30 seconds. Whatever he claims was his priority he has prioritized over telling the truth. Which he says is ‘uninteresting’.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  42. To be clear, it’s not age per se that is being mocked. Prolly everybody on this thread was 28 once. 🙂 Heck, some may even remember having subscribed to the “don’t trust anyone over 30” mantra (but now roll their eyes at the naiveté). Let’s be honest: when you’re 25 or 30, even if you are smart and personable and degreed and talented, at that age you just still don’t even begin to realize what all you don’t know and still mostly don’t get how the cogs in the big wheel of humanity all fit together and where you fit in as an individual.

    As Dana and others point out, only life experience along with careful observation, and prolonged interactions with a wide variety of people gets you to maturity. Having a family to support helps get you there, too. In the meantime, young professionals in almost any field do well to hang back with a sense of humility, ask questions, solicit input and be willing to consider new ideas, find established and respected examples of successful people in their field to emulate, demonstrate both a good work ethic and unimpeachable social ethics, and be enthusiastic but not get too full of themselves too soon.

    elissa (5953ce)

  43. weigel ethics are
    like gastric emissions that
    pass in summer breeze

    ColonelHaiku (619fc9)

  44. “I’ve found that the best way to convince someone to take your criticism seriously is to make fun of his chronic skin condition…”–Weigel

    Before or after they set themselves on fire?

    Dave Surls (387634)

  45. http://americanglob.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Dave-Weigel.jpg

    This is the middle of the road person that shooter describes above.

    JD (8ded14)

  46. Dog trainer “ethics”
    A marriage made in heaven
    If Times hires Dave

    elissa (5953ce)

  47. Colonel most shamed
    into profound silence by
    elissa’s beauty

    ColonelHaiku (619fc9)

  48. Responded over at the blog.

    David Weigel (1b27a4)

  49. you could at least leave a musics meanwhile i’ll scrounge around cwg for something new

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  50. Dave Weigel – if you did not recognize Patterico and thought him to be an attention seeking troll, while did you specifically taunt him about trying to get more webpage hits and links from Allah/hotair?

    JD (8ded14)

  51. Thank you Colonel, but it is you who are forever the muse.

    elissa (5953ce)

  52. weigel mensch or mutt?
    jury still out on that one
    but Milk-Bone® on sale

    ColonelHaiku (619fc9)

  53. #31, Beldar: Best comment post ever. Even my
    six-year-old got it.

    furious (71af32)

  54. Notice how Weigel dropped in to whine about insults, but refuses to actually engage or answer simple questions?

    JD (8ded14)


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