How the Left Lies to You About ACORN, Part 1
Defenders of ACORN have engaged in a breathtaking rewriting of history concerning the ACORN tapes made by investigative journalists Hannah Giles and James O’Keefe. One of those defenders is Brad Friedman, described by the ombudsman for the New York Times as someone with a “political agenda” whose characterization of what happened on the ACORN videos is “not credible.”
At Friedman’s blog, a guest blogger named “Ernest Canning” (last seen here as commenter “ruleoflaw”) provides an object lesson in how leftists are taking basic facts and twisting them beyond recognition.
This post is merely the beginning of a debunking of several of Canning’s misstatements in the piece — statements which are representative of the assault on the truth that has been mounted by certain ACORN supporters.
Canning says:
It is, however, slightly more surprising, and certainly most noteworthy, that now that they’ve been exposed as hoaxes, even Murdoch’s own New York Post was forced to describe the doctored tapes as a “‘heavily edited’ splice job that only made it appear as though the organization’s workers were advising a pimp and prostitute on how to get a mortgage…[with] many of the seemingly crime-encouraging answers…taken out of context so as to appear more sinister.”
Canning here suggests that the New York Post has thrown its institutional weight behind the proposition that the ACORN tapes were misleadingly edited. Canning implies that this accusation originates with the newspaper itself, perhaps in an editorial — or, even more shockingly, in a news story, where the correctness of the allegation is beyond question. However, when you click over to the actual article, you see that the quote is attributed, not to the New York Post itself, but rather to anonymous “sources”:
The video that unleashed a firestorm of criticism on the activist group ACORN was a “heavily edited” splice job that only made it appear as though the organization’s workers were advising a pimp and prostitute on how to get a mortgage, sources said yesterday. . . . Many of the seemingly crime-encouraging answers were taken out of context so as to appear more sinister, sources said.
The official statement by the D.A. makes no such claim:
On September 15, 2009, my office began an investigation into possible criminality on the part of three ACORN employees. The three had been secretly videotaped by two people posing as a pimp and prostitute, who came to ACORN’S Brooklyn office, seeking advice about how to purchase a house with money generated by their ‘business.’ The ‘couple’ later made the recording public. That investigation is now concluded and no criminality has been found.
I have bolded one phrase to emphasize that the statement does say that O’Keefe and Giles posed as pimp and prostitute, flying directly in the face of several statements by Media Matters writer Eric Boehlert and ACORN apologist Brad Friedman.
So the Brooklyn D.A. did not make any official claim that the tapes were misleadingly edited. Nor does the Post make any such claim as an institution, as implied by Mr. Canning.
If there is anything misleading here, it originates with Mr. Canning. It is misleading to take a quote in a newspaper that is explicitly attributed to anonymous sources, and describe that as a position taken by the newspaper. Otherwise, any time the New York Times quotes some unnamed source advancing a Republican position, I am free to quote that statement and attribute it to the New York Times, as if the view is shared by that newspaper.
Because a lie is better when you repeat it twice, Mr. Canning repeats this falsehood further down in the article, and doubles down with another:
Last week, Brooklyn prosecutors, who investigated the matter over a span of five months, came to a nearly identical conclusion, adding that O’Keefe and Giles “edited the tapes to meet their agenda.”
As the New York Post noted in describing the DA offices’ comments on their finding of “no criminality”, O’Keefe and Breitbart’s published Brooklyn ACORN video represented a “‘heavily edited’ splice job” where the comments by ACORN employees were “taken out of context so as to appear more sinister.”
The first paragraph implies that the official finding of the Brooklyn prosecutors includes the quote that O’Keefe and Giles “edited the tapes to meet their agenda.” It does not. Again, that is a quote from an anonymous source who might well have a partisan agenda. If the D.A. had wanted to put his institutional credibility behind that statement, he could have included such an accusation in his official public statement. He did not.
Note again how the anonymous sources’ descriptions are again attributed to the New York Post rather than anonymous sources.
I am out of time for this morning, but I have much more to come on the falsehoods in Mr. Canning’s piece and in numerous Friedman-penned posts on this topic. For now, suffice it to say that Friedman angrily goes around demanding retractions when I can prove that he is aware of multiple falsehoods in his posts that he has explicitly refused to correct. It’s hard to avoid the impression that Friedman is simply out to defend ACORN by any means possible — and if that defense requires him to shade the truth here, and bludgeon it there . . . well, it’s all for the greater good.
More to come.
fauxrage here in 5…4…3…
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 3/10/2010 @ 7:33 amActually, when the Obama Administration and Democrat Congress is swept from power, maybe these liars can be addressed and punished.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 3/10/2010 @ 7:38 amTo Friedman, Boehlert, rule o’flaw, et al., truth is a lie undiscovered.
The trouble with that for them is that their lies have been discovered numerous times…
GeneralMalaise (01c700) — 3/10/2010 @ 7:54 amAddressed and punished for what?
Boehlert is paid to make things up. Freidman apparently does it for free.
They both share the same sentence – publicly discrediting them using their own illogical fallacies.
WTFCI (26fd10) — 3/10/2010 @ 7:59 amFriedman showed up scolding me and DRJ last night, for something DRJ graciously corrected. At the samw time he continues to lie as easily as he breathes.
JD (d3f3ab) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:27 am4, for continued libel and slander. Both are a cancer on the body politic.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:34 amhow about “unnecessary stupidity”?
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:56 am“Rule of Flaw” did you say?
Gesundheit (cfa313) — 3/10/2010 @ 10:02 amBTW, when I’m writing at Rightwing news outlets, decrying the fact that the Conservative Party’s Doug Hoffman got screwed in NY-23 (and other similar defenses of Repubs and attacks on Dems), am I still “the Left”?
Just curious how that works here.
And, of course, still curious how Patterico bothered to authenticate the “unedited audio” as unedited, as he’s staked his reputation countless times here and elsewhere.
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/10/2010 @ 1:10 pmIt’s interesting that the left and the Soros-funded Democrat apparatus is so intent on defending ACORN and discrediting critics. They have multiple indictments and convictions for vote fraud. Why are they so important ? Even Hitler finally figured out that Rohm and his brownshirts caused more trouble than they were worth.
Mike K (2cf494) — 3/10/2010 @ 1:37 pmThere’s an old saying ” that a lie goes half way around the world before the truth gets out of bed” and this is what the liberals depend on. Why do you think they would rather tell a lie even if the truth would do just as good.
savage24 (780dff) — 3/10/2010 @ 1:57 pmMike K @ 11 said:
“ACORN [has] multiple indictments and convictions for vote fraud.”
No, they don’t. They have none. But you wouldn’t know that if all you read was Patterico and other wingnut sites who have been misleading you for years in their effort to attack ACORN because they have the temerity to legally register millions of Americans to legally participate in their own democracy.
Here are the FACTS: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7707
Hope they are helpful.
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/10/2010 @ 2:12 pm[…] hyper-partisan fellow travelers have no problem with the strategy, of course – they do what they can to aid and abet. But thank God, the big lie of the day is crumbling right before our eyes, […]
It’s Almost Like The American People Have Stopped Believing Him « Nice Deb (b1105a) — 3/10/2010 @ 2:14 pmInteresting, Mr. Frey aka Patterico. You make no claim that I misquoted the New York Post. You offer a different interpretation than mine, and then you attribute to me a “misstatement?”
I would invite your readers to go over to the Brad Blog and read what I had to say for themselves. I suspect it would be a real eye opener for many of them, especially since there’s so many solid points I made that you’ve chosen to ignore.
Oh, and savage24, if you take the time to read my piece at the Brad Blog, you’ll find the correct quote from Mark Twain at the very beginning of my piece.
ruleolaw (f582e3) — 3/10/2010 @ 4:05 pmOh, how careless of me. Here’s the link to the piece.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7707
ruleolaw (f582e3) — 3/10/2010 @ 4:10 pmErnie the Attorney’s glaring stupidity really makes me question whether he is an actual lawyer or just pretends to be one on the internet. He fits in well with the crowd of morons and liars over on Bradblog, but so would week old dog crap.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 4:24 pmTwo and a half questions:
What if all you guys fell and no one was there to hear it? Would you make a sound?
Anybody wanna wager on how O’Keefe the great and wonderful “investigative journalist” fares?
Third quesiton: And has anyone in this tiny room noticed that the smaller your world gets (shrinking caused by its relation to the much larger, real world)the louder you all get?
Larry Reilly (fadcab) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:13 pmLosers. yap-yap-yap
Bring on the ad hominems. It’s all you’ve got.
“It’s all you’ve got.”
Larry – Self-referential comments don’t get you very far here. Do you ever have anything useful or substantive to contribute or do you just stop by between drinks?
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:25 pmPatterico – I left a little love note for Ernie on his post over there.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:26 pm“Bring on the ad hominems. It’s all you’ve got.”
SPC Jack Klompus (237c0e) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:32 pmHmm…ok: You’re a vapid, petty, insignificant bore of subpar intellect and even less character.
How’s that work for ya, Chipper?
SPC Jack Klompus – That worked pretty well for me.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:38 pmdaleyrocks,
I’ll be shocked if it appears. Friedman has a habit of declaring any truthful statement with which he disagrees to be “knowing disinformation” — at which point he issues a warning and then places you in moderation. Which is highly ironic, as he comes over here and attempts to post his own knowing misinformation over here. His gander has received the sauce he dished out to the goose.
Patterico (c218bd) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:55 pmIf Larry Reilly hadn’t said that, I would be tempted to make it up and put the words in his mouth.
“All you have is ad hominems, you LOSERS!” would make a great bumper sticker.
Patterico (c218bd) — 3/10/2010 @ 5:57 pmdaley,
Did you see Friedman’s very honest and straightforward answer to your points? (Consisting of mocking a typo and ignoring your evidence of his falsehoods.)
Patterico (c218bd) — 3/10/2010 @ 6:05 pmBrad managed to get DRJ sideways yesterday, no small task.
JD (cecc16) — 3/10/2010 @ 6:36 pmPatty said:
“Friedman has a habit of declaring any truthful statement with which he disagrees to be “knowing disinformation” … Which is highly ironic, as he comes over here and attempts to post his own knowing misinformation over here.”
So, are there ever *any* minutes in the day when you’re not just making things up outta whole cloth, Patty?
And, about that “unedited audio”, the steps you took to authenticate it before reporting it as such over and over again in defense of the accused felon and admitted hoaxsters are what exactly?? Still asking. For the 20th time or so. By all means, don’t bother to answer and/or expose yourself as the partisan disinformation agent that apparently you can’t help yourself from being anymore.
And then Patty said:
“Did you see Friedman’s very honest and straightforward answer to your points? (Consisting of mocking a typo and ignoring your evidence of his falsehoods.)”
a) Still waiting for an honest and straightforward answer to my questions on your process, as a Deputy D.A. who knows what evidence is and how to authenticate it, how u authenticated the “unedited audio” which you claim provides some sort of exculpatory evidence for the accused felon and admitted hoaxters you defend.
b) “mocking a typo”. What? Can’t do that here? Guess you’ll have to toss out your whole theory about my being a “liar” because you found a typo in my letter to Clark Hoyt.
c) “Evidence of falsehoods”. I saw none. But if you say it enough, you’ll certainly be able to keep convincing both yourself AND your discerning readers that it’s true.
Go get ’em, counselor!
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/10/2010 @ 6:46 pmDon’t lie to your readers Patterico. You got placed into moderation because you were personally insulting posters on Brad’s blog instead of actually addressing points in a civil matter.
Bob Ross (c6a9ac) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:01 pmLarry Reilly whining about ad hominems. Oh, the irony.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:08 pmSo we can assume that Bob Ross is a lying douchenozzle as well?
JD (0e324f) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:17 pmPatterico – It went up, but I was out for a while and have not been back over there yet.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:25 pm“That investigation is now concluded and no criminality has been found.”
This sounds like the DA cleared that branch of ACORN. Isn’t this why the leftists have so vigorously defended this questionable organization?
lee (cae7a3) — 3/10/2010 @ 8:47 pmPatterico – I don’t think Ernie is going to be happy with my response to his reply to my comment.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/10/2010 @ 9:39 pmAw JD I thought this was a site with adults not petulent schoolyard children who foam at the mouth and personally insult people for calling out a lie.
Patrick was warned at least 3 times not to personally attack other posters and to instead engage in a civil conversation or he would be put into moderation. He ignored it and Brad warned him again saying he was in moderation for the personal attacks. The fact is Patrick you were already in moderation per your previous warnings by Brad before being told not to spread knowing misinformation.
Now there are others on that site who came over here and werent given the courtesy of a warning and were instead banned from posting.
Bob Ross (616985) — 3/11/2010 @ 5:32 am“Now there are others on that site who came over here and werent given the courtesy of a warning and were instead banned from posting.”
Bobster – They can always email Patterico and ask to reinstatated. Grow up and stop whining.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/11/2010 @ 6:20 amAnd so that’s Bob’s excuse for Brad’s intentional misrepresentations? Hey, squirrel!
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/11/2010 @ 6:34 amNot my excuse SP its what happened. The warnings are made public in the entries. You could go and read it yourself in the previous acorn related entries at Brad’s blog. Its just another case of dishonesty from Patrick misstating what actually happened.
That wasnt the point you were making daley. You stated here that you didnt think your comment would post yet it did right away. Brad consistently warns people when they break the rules others who have come here stated they werent warned and were forced into moderation. Sounds like one is more open to free thought.
Bob Rosso (63e094) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:52 amLook, two squirrels!
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:12 amUm. Given BF’s history, I would gently remind you to review what Inigo Montoya said.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:16 amOh dear God. And I thought people didn’t drop acid anymore.
Does this character have enough irony is diet?
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:18 amKeyboard hiccup: that should be “irony in his diet,” of course.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:18 amI love it when someone is so easily pegged on their first comment.
JD (a58f1d) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:44 amYou mean the part where Bob never addresses the substance of the post, JD?
Just another troll in a pack of trolls.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:45 am““All you have is ad hominems, you LOSERS!” would make a great bumper sticker.
Comment by Patterico”
LOL.
And bob, if you’re admitting that Brad will not permit people to give their side of the case, then your argument that he’s more open to free thought is extremely dishonest. Anyone who spends any length of time here knows that this blog tolerates any level of disagreement and only moderates for extreme crap that has nothing to do with argumentation or opinion.
This lack of accountability in Pelosi’s House and Holders DOJ and Obama’s administration and in all the dummy Democrat Party organizations like SEIU and ACORN is a huge aspect of why people are willing to give the GOP more power in November despite their flailing for the past ten years.
If the democrats were open in their dealings and shut down the thugs, they would be unstoppable in November. But no, you guys had to choose this path.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:59 amACORN settled a lawsuit in Ohio by agreeing to shut down in Ohio. I just heard it on FOX News Radio. But of course, since ACORN is now COI, this shut-down really means nothing in the overall scheme of things.
John Hitchcock (3890c1) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:06 amThis is what Hitchcock is refering to.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:10 amSo, Bob is a first-time visitor? See, Bob, this site might have adults, but jdizzle is not one of them. His sole reason for posting is to insult dissenting opinions. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t even read the posts, he just finds someone “on the other team” and tries to insult them.
Don’t be too alarmed. You get used to mindless drivel from him after the 2nd visit.
timb (449046) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:30 am41, Bob, you’ll have mindless supporters of Obama like timb to confirm your black is white lies.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2010/mar/obama-justice-department-shut-down-federal-acorn-investigation-according-documents-obt
Again, Obama is so tied to ACORN he can’t let any honest investigation of it happen.
PCD (b3210f) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:34 amFrom John’s link.
Amazing how petty ACORN is, 100% of the time. Sour grapes when kicked out of the state? For organized crime and election fraud, no less. For attempting to steal democracy from those evil evil citizens.
And I’m sure the hordes of Media Matters and Sadly No trolls have absolutely no problem with this. After all, if they are willing to steal the livelihood of those they disagree with, they probably expect and demand the democrats try to tamper with elections.
I’m annoyed that Ohio would allow this deal. Submitting a single forged voter registration should result in confinement. Submitting many should be a felony. RICO. Send ACORN leadership to prison.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:34 am“…Send ACORN leadership to prison.”
Comment by Dustin — 3/11/2010 @ 10:34 am
…and confiscate all of their assets (both the organization, and pricipals)!
AD - RtR/OS! (7b127f) — 3/11/2010 @ 10:47 amWhen ACORN says “we didn’t do anything wrong” over their behavior in Ohio, or their behavior with O’Keefe’s sting, a lot of people are horrified. They know their people are tampering with the election process and committing tax evasion and mortgage fraud (that last one is a huge aspect of our economic mess). They don’t think they did anything wrong, though, which is like saying they promise to keep doing exactly what they’ve been doing.
How many drug dealers got help hiding his earnings and buying a new crackhouse from ACORN today? How many fake census forms will ACORN’s minions submit? Until they come clean, it’s safe to assume the worst.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/11/2010 @ 11:07 amACORN should be the poster-child for RICO prosecutions.
AD - RtR/OS! (7b127f) — 3/11/2010 @ 11:14 amDustin when did I say Patterico wasn’t allowed by Brad to give his side of the case? Patrick gave his side of the case through multiple threads. It was when Patrick refused to follow the rules which was not to personally insult people with Ad Hominem attacks is when he was put into moderation. Being a deputy DA I would have expected him to be civil and act like an adult.
I know I should not have gotten my hopes up but I feel those in a role such as that should be able to conduct themselves in a more professional matter whether doing something business related or personal. That was the first time I saw Patrick post and its kind of offputting to see someone open up with a bunch of insults.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7719#comments
That thread was the first time I saw Patrick post and as you see he got a warning for calling someone stupid and continued on and on after he was warned.
It had nothing to do with Patrick being able to express his ideas. People like Paul L and Daley have been allowed to express their thoughts in a civil manner while Patrick got pushed into moderation for personal attacks.
Now the rest of your post seems out in left field. You’ve painted me with a broad brush without me even telling you what my stance is on economic and social issues. What do the democrats, Nancy Pelosi, Obama, etc have anything to do with Patrick claiming he was put into moderation for spreading misinformation when in reality he was put into moderation for personally attacking people after he was warned several times.
Do you always paint random people with such a broad brush Dustin?
Bob Ross (c6a9ac) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:24 pmStill nothing on the substance, I see, Ross.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:30 pmYet another leftist sophist seeking to obfuscate and lie on behalf of ACORN that is more offended by people calling idiots idiots and liars liars as opposed to being offended by the actions of ACORN. That is one screwed up metric you folks have there, Bob.
JD (cc3aa7) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:32 pmSo, what Bob has proven is that he and Brad are more offended at being called an idiot or a liar than they are defending the actions of the ACORN employees involved in these videos. Pretty effed up, Bob.
JD (cc3aa7) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:34 pmBob, you’re just rambling. I don’t see how anything you write relates to what I said.
ACORN has been caught red handed, and always says they did nothing wrong. That’s a problem. If you weren’t a bitter partisan you would understand. Imagine the NRA were helping people lie to obtain government money to stockpile guns and also helping people register to vote repeatedly, and when caught, said they didn’t see the problem with their behavior.
This isn’t a partisan issue to me. My brush isn’t broad. You’re just another psycho who doesn’t care about anything but some stupid political party. With a life like that, you’re in for a November to remember.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/11/2010 @ 8:37 pm“Daley have been allowed to express their thoughts in a civil manner”
Bob – I didn’t think I was being particularly civil. I’ll try to ramp it up a bit in the future to match the incoming.
“That wasnt the point you were making daley. You stated here that you didnt think your comment would post yet it did right away.” Not me, that was Patterico. You need to be more careful when accusing people of stuff, just like the other Bradbots.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:15 pmThese people are beyond parody, daleyrocks.
JD (cc3aa7) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:20 pmJD – Over there it is like turds swirling around the drain, with all the brainpower to match.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:45 pmAnd too many of them are so intellectually vacuous they become floaters that can’t get flushed. They just stay around and keep stinking up the place.
John Hitchcock (bb234e) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:50 pmJohn – The stains on the bowl are horrific too.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/11/2010 @ 9:52 pmActually, Brad’s rules are predictably one-sided against people with whom he disagrees. People are allowed to call me psychotic and unfit for my job, but if I call a liar a liar my posts are delayed for as much as a day.
I offered to a) restrict myself to using the same terms as others had used against me without penalty, or b) to be entirely civil if those commenters were warned and moderated like I was. At that point I was told I was also in moderation for posting “knowing disinformation” (read: for exposing Friedman’s lies).
I watched and saw someone else given a warning for “knowing disinformation” because she called Friedman a liar (which he is).
If I banned people for posting knowing disinformation we’d reduce the population here fast — and that’s for people who actually do post knowing disinformation. Friedman bans people who post the truth and expose him as a liar.
Friedman and all his goons who slander my professional name are moderated. That now includes Bob Ross. It may take a while for Friedman’s posts to be approved. That’s the deal he gave me.
Patterico (5575fb) — 3/12/2010 @ 12:57 amBob Ross: I don’t believe I said Friedman initially put me in moderation using the phony “knowing misinformation” excuse. That would appear to be a misstatement by you. I said he has a habit of doing that. I just watched him do it to someone else in the last couple of days, and all she did was call him on his lies.
He is the most shameless liar I have run across on the Internet in the last … well, this calendar year, anyway.
Patterico (5575fb) — 3/12/2010 @ 1:09 amObama Administration shuts down Federal investigations into ACORN.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/11/judge-acorn-entitled-taxpayer-money/?test=latestnews
PCD (1d8b6d) — 3/12/2010 @ 5:52 amYou might actually want to go read the recent Judicial Watch documents….I get Judicial Watch wants funding, but the Justice Department “shut down” the investigations under Bush and refused to re-open them after O’Keefe and all, because they couldn’t prove anything. See, when an allegation is “unverifiable,” it tends to lose in Court.
Then, again, given your insanity, I’m dreaming. There is after all no chance you would want to read anything more than a headline.
timb (449046) — 3/12/2010 @ 6:30 amtimb – There is a certain consistency to those Judicial Watch documents that were released yesterday, at least the portion I made it through. To me they suggest why ACORN would not want to go through a RICO trial in Ohio and chose to settle instead by departing the state and pledging not to return. They do make fascinating reading.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/12/2010 @ 6:49 amtimb, you are as dishonest as ACORN has been proven to be.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 3/12/2010 @ 6:51 amPatrick your original statement above: “Friedman has a habit of declaring any truthful statement with which he disagrees to be “knowing disinformation” — at which point he issues a warning and then places you in moderation.” So who did this happen to? You were making a claim based on what you perceived to be your persoanl experience but conveniently forgot to tell your readers you were already in Moderation for personally attacking other posters on the site. I stand by my statement you were trying to mislead your readers.
Who did he do it to Patrick?
When you have time I have a question about n article you posted here which you claimed was balanced about the Schiavo situation where the first part talks about how Michael possibly strangled Terri and put her in that condition.
Really Brad is the worst? Youve never read Orly Taitz or Mario Appuzzo?
Bob Rosso (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:18 amSorry Patrick didnt mean to change the name there was typing and then didnt realize I wasnt in the content.
Slander? I didnt slander your name as a lawyer you know that slander most be spoken not written. Besides that I didnt personally attack you. I said I thought you would be more professional. Considering that was the first time I saw you post and then comparing that with the stature of your job I thought you would act more civil.
You were warned 4 separate times for personal attacks on posters. Your comments were allowed to be posted in full. Now youre saying you’re putting me in moderation without warning. Again it seems you do not encourage open debate while accussing others of stifling yours.
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:25 amdaley, I’m referring to the allegation about the Feds shutting down an investigation, not the Ohio settlement.
By the way, the Ohio settlement had little to with RICO statutes. RICO is a criminal statute. The Ohio suit seemed to be about running a “criminal” organization for nefarious purposes based on civil law.
timb (449046) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:25 amWho did he do it to Patrick?
I don’t have time to dig it up now. Read the ACORN threads from recent days. I think it was a woman. He cited three alleged instances of disinformation from the same post and gave her three separate warnings.
That should be enough for you to find it. I consider it your job, since you are accusing me of lying about it on my blog.
I’ll make you a deal. You retract your claim that I am trying to mislead readers. Or, you stand by your claim — in which case, if I find the comment in question and can prove it exists, I will ban you utterly from this site for being a liar.
I’m giving you a chance here. This happened. Go find it and then retract.
Patterico (c218bd) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:26 amMy mistake daley not used to this plain text comment section. Too many of the comments run together.
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:27 amPatterico, this guy is just an acolyte. That’s it. And his posts read very strangely. Just my opinion, but ignoring him might be the best course. You will soon get a “Wall O’ Text” full of obfuscation.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:29 amDustin please try to breathe in and relax before posting. Your last two posts come off as unbalanced. I havent stated anything about Acorn here for or against yet in your post to me you lumped me in with Pelosi and the democrats which Im not a registered member of. I get it Dustin anyone who isnt a true believer of your stripes is automatically given a hyperpartisan rant unrelated to what the poster was talking about. Thats how you alienate independents. Thanks for showing what an upstanding person you are. Here here.
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:36 amCertainly, Ross, you show no interest in the actual subject of this post.
Why is that?
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:44 amEric once again I was addressing Patrick’s claim above about moderation for misinformation. Youre trying to lump me in when I havent made statements about Acorn here. Nice to see you jumping the gun.
But it is funny all the focus on something with a 25 million dollar budget who gets an averag of 1 million a year while companies actually breaking the law running real prostitution rings still bilk the taxpayer for billions not a peep.
Didnt you claim on Brad’s blog Paterrico that only you were treated that way?
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:50 amSPQR I addressed a comment patterico made but lets see conversely why so much interest? How are you personally affected? Its inconsequential, there are bigger fish who commit real crimes and get 100 fold more than Acorn from the average taxpayer. Wheres your beef with them?
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:54 amSee what I mean, folks? It’s that or drinking early in the morning.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/12/2010 @ 7:56 amSo, Bob Ross is concerned about other people putting too much focus on this when he comes from Brad’s place, who has been posting lies about this relentlessly? Again, not how he appears to think it is worse to call a liar a liar than it is do do what the ACORN employees have done. Strange.
And, the idea that he is not of the Left, or is an independent, is laughable.
JD (842c05) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:04 amWhat ex employees have done. Tell me JD what crime was committed here? Bad advice? Okay then we should lock up Yoo and Gonzales if that is your measure.
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:07 amLaughable based on what JD? I havent made comments on where I stand on social and economic issues. You’re speculating with insufficient data.
Bob Ross (1379a6) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:10 amLimbaugh calls these kinds of people “seminar callers,” because they are so densely packed with talking points and are impervious to how contrived they sound.
This is the same kind of thing.
Eric Blair (c8876d) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:22 amDustin @ 57 said:
“ACORN has been caught red handed, and always says they did nothing wrong.”
“Caught” doing what?
“This isn’t a partisan issue to me.”
Perhaps not, I know nothing about you, so Ill take you at you r word. But I guarantee you it’s a “partisan issue” to those who have lied to you about ACORN to the point where it seems you haven’t a clue what they do or what they’ve done. Sound to me like you even beleive they are involved in “voter fraud”, the oldest and most despicable democracy-undermining charge against ACORN that there is — never mind that it is 100% untrue.
If you believe otherwise, I’d encourage u to find a more reputable source of news, because you’ve been conned by disingenuous partisan scammers.
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:25 amI used to watch Bob Ross on PBS back in the day. This guy isn’t worthy of being called Bob Ross.
John Hitchcock (05b381) — 3/12/2010 @ 8:30 amThey were not ex-employees when they did this, Bob. They are ex-employees now because even Bertha Lewis has a more finely tuned moral compass than you.
So, Bob, why do you lay out for us your political leanings. Let me guess … Concerned Christian conservative, lifelong Republican that is now a sophist for ACORN because Boooooooosh shredded the Constitution and the overt racism of conservatives?
JD (7887cd) — 3/12/2010 @ 9:00 amBob Ross, my beef with ACORN is that it is an organization that takes taxpayer funds, condones criminal activity and then undermines the foundation of the democracy in which I live.
Or haven’t you noticed?
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/12/2010 @ 9:08 amSPQR @ 88
Since you don’t seem to care about organizations that ACTUALLY take taxpayer funds, ACTUALLY condone criminal activity (such as murder, and ACTUAL prostitution and ACTUAL prostitution rings) to the tune of more federal taxpayer dollars in a single day than ACORN has received in their lifetime (here’s a quick primer for ya: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7696 ), I’ll focus only on your last point.
You said that ACORN “undermines the foundation of the democracy in which I live. Or haven’t you noticed?”
Well, no. Since I’ve been writing about ACORN and dozens of organizations who actually DO undermine the foundation of the democracy in which I live for years, I haven’t noticed ACORN doing any such thing. In fact, I’ve noticed they do the exact opposite (which is why they’ve been targeted by the years-long GOP smear campaigns.) I’ve written about it not only at The BRAD BLOG, but on all sorts of other sites, newspapers, magazines, CNN and even Fox “News”.
That said, just because I’m not aware of it, doesn’t mean there isn’t any evidence for it. So, your evidence for ACORN “undermin[ing] the foundation of the democracy in which [you] live” is what, exactly?
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/12/2010 @ 10:01 am“there are bigger fish who commit real crimes and get 100 fold more than Acorn from the average taxpayer. Wheres your beef with them?
Comment by Bob Ross ”
One of the many lies ACORN fanboys like to put out is that ACORN didn’t commit real crimes, and another is that they weren’t in line to receive $4,000,000,000 before O’Keefe’s heroic journalism.
ACORN’s huge and it commits real crimes. If Bob wants to investigate his hypothetical larger criminal organization, that’s cool. Show me the evidence and I’ll respect the truth. But that won’t mitigate for ACORN. No false equivalence will ever make ACORN anything but a criminal enterprise devoted to winning elections for Democrats by any means necessary, including helping pimps and drug dealers.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/12/2010 @ 10:15 amDustin @ 90 said:
“ACORN’s huge and it commits real crimes.”
Okay. I’ll bite. What are they?
“Show me the evidence and I’ll respect the truth.”
Backatcha, chief. Looking forward to it.
Brad Friedman (25f727) — 3/12/2010 @ 10:17 amDustin 88 they werent in line to get 4 billion dollars. Where are you pulling this number from? Acorns yearly operating budget is 25 million youre claiming somehow they were going to get 160 times that isnt based on reality. Show documentation of this.
Helping pimps and drug dealers? At no time was Okeefe either of these. No paperwork was ever filled out. So this “help” you speak of is just as hypotethical as your claims. Youd do a lot better on birther sites Dustin
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:33 am86 SPQR Acorn has taken on average from taxpayers 1.5 million a year since its inception. Those who have broken rules have been fired and investigates. Now how about your concern for an organization ike Dyncorp who has bilked billions from taxpayers after twice getting nailed for running prostitution rings including a child prostitution ring in Bosnia. Or Haliburton and KBR who have given our troops spoiled food, built facilities with inferior materials causing the death and illness of some of our troops? Concerned any? They rip the taxpayer off for billions yearly.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:38 amJD you really like to prattle on dont you and make wild assumptions. They were fired. No paperwork was ever filled out which chances are if it was it would have been caught. Like when Acorn flagged voter registration forms as required by law and fired employees when they committed fraud against Acorn.
I look at Acorn in reality JD. If several bank tellers from different branches were pocketing money instead of depositing it in the bank accounts and the bank caught them and fired them. Would you be claiming the bank was corrupt? I find your demonization of a small donation funded small profit to be funny compared to your noncommittal to demonize groups like haliburton who actually rip off the american taxpayer.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:44 amAh Eric as if Limbaugh doesnt sound the exact same way he describes seminar callers.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:49 am@89 Brad Friedman — Advising a client on how to set up Child Prostitution Ring.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:50 amFirst:
Followed immediately by:
Your statement is false, you did not look at ACORN in reality, you instead made it into a fictional bank with a fictional crime. ACORN in reality is not a bank, it is an organization that attempted to advise a client on how to set up a child prostitution ring.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/17/2010 @ 10:56 amBob Ross (or Bob Rosso, Boob Russo, Brass Knucklehead, or whatever he’s calling himself nowadays) wrote:
Uh huh.
Two words: Dale Rathke. As a former associate of Barack Obama once said, “Guilty as sin, free as a bird.”
Explain.
L.N. Smithee (0931d2) — 3/17/2010 @ 11:24 amI would claim the bank was corrupt if SOP of the bank made it not only likely but acceptable for tellers to stuff cash in their pockets!
L.N. Smithee (0931d2) — 3/17/2010 @ 11:29 amYou are wasting your breath, LN. Brad and Bob wouldn’t know the twoof if it kicked them in the teeth, and appear to go out of their way to avoid the truth.
They are sophists who seek to obfuscate and lie. They should be ashamed that Bertha Lewis has a more finely tuned moral compass than they do.
JD (f8c9db) — 3/17/2010 @ 12:31 pmPonis I did look at Acorn in reality. Those who did things they werent supposed to were fired.
Okeefe was never a client and there was no child prostitution ring it was a work of fiction that never existed. No paperwork was filled out no crime committed. Every organization has bad apples and those who were accordingly were fired.
Now Dyncorp has set up real prostituton rings and still takes money from taxpayers.
What you have is low level no power part timers who gave bad advice and were subsequently fired. Even then it took Okeefe leading them on to get to that point.
If bad advice were a crime you would be calling for David Addington, Alberto Gonzales and John Yoo’s collective heads as they advised on torture an actual crime.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:07 pm96 Dale embezzled from acorn. He comitted a crime against them and their donors. There is nothing to show that the organization as a whole committed the crime. Once again though the only crime committed during Okeefe’s game was breaking of non-consent laws.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:13 pmLN so even if the bank didnt know, fired the employees, and reimbursed youd think the bank was corrupt. That doesn’t follow any sort of logic.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:16 pmJD you really do ramble on without any sense of direction. I have an idea why don’t you post a journal and then reply to it with what you think everyone will say and do in it. That way you can cut out the middleman in your head.
Bob Ross (3309be) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:20 pmBob Ross is a shill for ACORN criminals. He’s either lying about what he’s looked into, or he’s lying about what’s happened. And either way, ACORN’s senior leadership contradicted itself repeatedly on this serious matter, and lied about an insider investigation being an outside and serious effort to explain why ACORN engages in mortgage fraud for pimps.
ACORN is the new KKK. While race baiting in a different way, that’s not what I mean. I mean they are committed to the sole goal of more democrats being elected, and will do anything to see that happen. They have a committed group of dumb people who will lie and cheat, like Bob Ross, to “get” the GOP somehow. Bob probably thinks he’s justified because of how demonic he feels the right is.
He’s obsessed, and none of us have time to bother with it, but it’s a real part of the American political landscape. Even though ACORN keeps getting thrown out of states and prosecuted for vote fraud, they can just change their name or engage is journalist character assassination.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:23 pmBob and Brad are obsessed with this topic. It says much about them.
JD (3399c0) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:28 pmBrad Friedman #83 – “But I guarantee you it’s a “partisan issue” to those who have lied to you about ACORN to the point where it seems you haven’t a clue what they do or what they’ve done. Sound to me like you even beleive they are involved in “voter fraud”, the oldest and most despicable democracy-undermining charge against ACORN that there is — never mind that it is 100% untrue.
If you believe otherwise, I’d encourage u to find a more reputable source of news, because you’ve been conned by disingenuous partisan scammers.”
Interesting words …
So CNN are “disingenuous partisan scammers” in *your* books, are they ? The Wall Street Journal ? The Seattle Times ?
The problem with absolutes, like “100% untrue”, is that they are so easy to refute, as with simple cites like this or this or this …
Each of those cites shows ACORN folk convicted of voter fraud (as well as other indicted for voter fraud or other charges) …
Would you care to address each of these, Brad ? Or any of these ?
Brad … ?
Brad … ?
Bueller … ?
Alasdair (e7cb73) — 3/17/2010 @ 1:52 pm“There is nothing to show that the organization as a whole committed the crime.”
Bob – Who signed the false form 990’s and other required filings and continued to allow them to be falsely filed – how culpable is the board in that continued fraud?
“Once again though the only crime committed during Okeefe’s game was breaking of non-consent laws.”
Bob – That would be alleged crime. Just because you say it does not make it true. There are plenty of good arguments in O’Keefe’s favor. Why didn’t ACORN ever serve him in the Maryland litigation and instead let the litigation lapse with the passage of time?
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/17/2010 @ 4:11 pm“If several bank tellers from different branches were pocketing money instead of depositing it in the bank accounts and the bank caught them and fired them. Would you be claiming the bank was corrupt?
Comment by Bob Ross — 3/17/2010 @ 10:44 am”
Bob – I see you are picking up on Ernie the Attorney’s favorite analogy which has nothing to do with ACORN. Let’s skip to one served up here instead. Do you consider Enron a corrupt organization? If so, why?
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/17/2010 @ 4:14 pmThat is a falsehood (O’Keefe posed as a client) and the AOCRN agents did offer advice on child prostitution (San Bernardino and New York City — the child prostitution references start at 2:43 and 3:19 respectively).
That is a shame (at least for those who are against the exploitation of children ).
Interesting, you went from “work of fiction” to admitting that “bad apples” did exist at ACORN.
Rather than thank the journalists for their work in discovering that such nefarious actively was occurring in their East Coast and West Coast operations, ACORN initially decided to deny the incidents, then attack the journalists.
Only a corrupt organization would have such a sustained reaction.
Child prostitution is not just “bad advice”. Exploiting children is reprehensible by an order of magnitude, above just about any other revolting behavior on this Earth. The fact that this organization made its agents feel comfortable enough to offer such advice and the fact that they thought it was appropriate speaks volumes (and this occurred in two different offices!).
Your attempts to mitigate it are meaningless.
Interesting again, you went from “work of fiction” to “bad apples”, to now admitting that the child prostitution advice constitutes a “point” for ACORN.
Nobody, in any legitimate organization, would feel comfortable or empowered to offer professional advice on child prostitution (feel free to cite an example proving your hypothesis). Only at ACORN do employees feel at ease offering such advice, as evidenced by the fact this occurred at two different offices, separated by a continent.
Your attempt to change the subject is telling.
Child prostitution is a crime. The fact that those responsible are shielded by ACORN-supporters is disgraceful. The fact that such supporters do this for political reasons reveals the lack of rational and morally consistent principles in their political beliefs — a hallmark of a failing philosophy that increasingly needs more elaborate denials and false constructs to remain justifiable.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/17/2010 @ 4:17 pmBob, ACORN’s leadership hid the embezzlement. That made them accomplices after the fact, and poor stewards of the public’s money.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/17/2010 @ 4:54 pmPonis posing as a client and being a client are two separate things. Nothing was ever processed hence no crime committed other than illegal recording. Now why is it Okeefe targeted low level no power part timers of Acorn?
It is not a falsehood to claim Okeefe was never a client and there never was a prostitution ring. This is a fact unless somehow you know something noone else does that Okeefe has a brothel of little girls stashed away somewhere. So my statement was true.
Okeefe is not a journalist but more along the lines of a prankster who is now close to facing real jailtime for allegedly committing a felony crime. When news of this broke the low level acorn staffers were fired The prostitution ring was a work of fiction, the pimp and prostitute was a work of fiction. Neither of those things existed.
There was no exploitation of children in this case. Once again none of it was real.
I didnt go from anything calling a fake protitution ring a work of fiction is a true statement. You act as if the phrases bad apples and work of fiction are mutually exclusive when they are not.
Acorn has offices all over the country with thousands of staffers. Okeefe originally said noone turned him away then that one person did then we find out there were more. Why no footage of that?
If this was an unbiased journalistic investigation we would see that. Instead of Okeefe attacking another organization that helps poor people.
When Bloomberg did an ivestigation of gun shows last year he had actual investigators purchase weapons fulfilling the transaction. He showed tapes where sellers broke the law and tapes of them not breaking the law. It was unbiased
No there was no child prostitution. How do you keep claiming something that is not? There was no exploitation and reading through the full transcripts and not cherry picking quotes Okeefe contradicts himself.
Even so those who gave the advice were fired and no paperwork was filled out. No crime committed. You have no proof that the organization made these low level no power part timers comfortable enough to give such advice. No investigation has turned up such. This is pure speculation on your part.
Yes Child prostitution is a crime. Why arent you calling for a full investigation of Dyncorp who takes billions from taxpayers and ran a real child prostitution ring in bosnia? There was no child prostitution ring in Acorm’s case. So yes I find it telling that you’re all over Acorn for a nonexistent child prostitution ring while real ones run by contractors get nary a mention
Bob Ross (388d81) — 3/18/2010 @ 7:42 amDaley enron doesnt exist anymore. How about this question do you consider Dyncorp, Haliburton a corrupt corporstion.
Bob Ross (388d81) — 3/18/2010 @ 7:44 amDaley did Okeefe ever make acorn employees sign a waiver? Did he ever ask for permission to record in California? Why did Okeefe go on to edit some of his videos to remove audio of what acorn employees stated? What does California penal code 632 say about recording conversations? Yes alleged is right but ive seen people here claim a real prostitution ring existed when it didnt in Acorns case
Bob Ross (388d81) — 3/18/2010 @ 7:53 amYeah Dustin because Acorn strings up minorities and hangs them. Good lord. The new KKK? Could you make an even more offensive statement? Nowhere have I made comments about the right here Dustin. Would you like to quote where Ive said how demonic the right is? I’m waiting….
To address your other mindless platitudes. Acorn hasnt been prosecuted for “vote fraud”. Ex employees of Acorn whom were turned in by Acorn were prosecuted for voter registration fraud. If you dont know the different between voter fraud and voter registration fraud you have no business commenting on this topic. Read the indictments they are against former employees and not the organization itself. These employees were defrauding acorn because they got paid according to registrations and ended up filling out fake registrations. Acorn is required by law to turn in all registrations. Obviously bogus ones they flag. Its up to the state to investigate. Which is why you hear about these cases.
Acorn registers republicans and democrats. The reason for more democrats is they work in predominantly poor and minority neighborhoods.
There was an organzization in Las Vegas busted in 2008 because they were throwing out valid democrat registrations because they only wanted to register republicans. Now that is election fraud. That disenfranchises real voters.
Bob Ross (388d81) — 3/18/2010 @ 8:04 amJD you seem obsessed with what other people say and do it says a lot more about you.
Bob Ross (388d81) — 3/18/2010 @ 8:05 amThe net effect is that the ACORN employees thought he was a client and gave advice accordingly. That you need this explained is in itself an explanation of your way of thinking.
Okay Bob, try to figure this out by yourself, because if it needs explaining, you will not understand:
Child prostitution is wrong whether someone gets away with it or not, whether an enabling organization gets away with it or not.
He did not, he targeted ACORN, a political organization.
O’Keefe exposed a political organization (ACORN) that attempted to offer advice on child prostitution. ACORN, upon being caught and embarrassed, rallied its political supporters. These supporters have political power and they are using it in a corrupt fashion — go after the journalist as opposed to the organization and its agents that offered advice on child prostitution.
Using raw power in a politically corrupt fashion is one of the oldest and saddest stories in civilization.
The fact that this is now occurring in our country is shameful.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:13 pmThe empirical evidence is that ACORN offered advice helpful in setting up a child prostitution ring, to undercover journalists posing as a clients in two different offices.
Pretending this is not an essential fact is disingenuous.
Because O’Keefe was undercover as opposed to an actual client and because O’Keefe did not set up an actual child prostitution ring with the advice from ACORN — that simply does not justify ignoring the reprehensible behavior of ACORN’s advice on child exploitation.
Dismissing an organization’s behavior for child exploitation because it was part of an undercover operation (ie not real) removes any intelligent argument that you have. Calling O’Keefe names does not change the fact that he has empirical evidence of ACORN agents offering advice on child prostitution rings that they thought were real.
Sure.
Because a person doing what is not morally reprehensible is normal.
What is newsworthy is that he found ACORN employees in two different ACORN offices willing to offer advice on child prostitution (one would have been bad enough). ACORN’s subsequent actions (denial, outrage, attack) are also newsworthy; an organization behaving as it should, or even helping local communities not so much.
BTW: any luck finding another legitimate organization where its employees offered advice on setting up a child prostitution ring, followed by them condemning and attacking the journalist?
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:15 pmACORN is a political organization. To ignore this fact requires intellectual blinders.
Showing tapes of sellers not breaking the law is irrelevant. It means nothing, as this is the normal or expected behavior of human beings. Of course if the journalist was attempting to imply that legal transactions are few and rare, then the piece would be biased (or at least in need of evidence).
Here is another example: a journalist covering a bank robbery would not be required to show footage of normal transactions of bank customers for the sake of parity and unbiased coverage.
Perhaps we can agree that child exploitation is far worse than a bank robbery (paper money versus our most vulnerable fellow human beings). If you agree, then logically one does not have to show an organization helping children when that same organization enabled child exploitation (or beleived that they were).
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:18 pmIts pretty hilarious that Bob Ross cites Bloomberg’s investigations as a standard, as Bloomberg’s investigators did commit crimes themselves.
So much for Bob Ross’ integrity.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:21 pmThe empirical evidence is on tape of ACORN agents offering advice on child prostitution. Ignoring this is a form of intellectual cowardice. I did not quote O’Keefe even once. I did show his videos. I saw no contradictions in the videos, as ACORN employees did offer advice on many criminal matters including child exploitation.
Only after enormous public pressure.
Not sure how many criminals keep records of their business. In any event, there is a record (in fact at least two records) as linked above @108.
Never said made — allowed, encouraged, and condoned immoral and illegal behavior (of all kinds) culminating in a video. Zero speculation as there are investigations and indictments for all kinds of ACORN activity, all over the nation. There is empirical evidence of ACORN employees offering advice on child prostitution rings. Once that occurred it is reasonable to beleive that an investigation is warranted (more reasonable than assuming otherwise).
Not sure what you are talking about, but if that occurred then yes, hang ’em high with all organizations that commit or condone practices that assist or lead to child exploitation. My moral principles are not based on Dem/Rep or con/lib prisms. In this thread ACORN is the discussion.
This is a reoccurring theme in your comment and it is your weakest argument.
As answered above: “Dismissing an organizations behavior for child exploitation because it was part of an undercover operation (ie not real) removes any intelligent argument that you have. Calling O’Keefe a name does not change the fact that he has empirical evidence of ACORN agents offering adcie on child prostitution rings that they thought were real.”
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:21 pmYou assumed facts. My moral principles are not based on my political beliefs (it’s the other way around, for me).
As stated above it does not matter who commits or tries to commit child exploitation, hang ’em high. If this thread was about an agency other than ACORN, and empirical evidence indicated that such an agency set up or otherwise enabled a child prostitution ring, my stand would not change in the slightest. For me, political affiliation is irrelevant when it comes to my moral principles.
Child prostitution is wrong. Trying to dismiss it because it was an undercover operation and therefore not an actual operation (despite it being real to ACORN), is the height of intellectual and moral cowardice. Like a child crossing his fingers when making a promise (“doesn’t count”), such principles are hollow when confronted with morally constructed principles based on reason.
That one would cling to it as a shield, denotes the false hope of such a ploy; as though this childish device will somehow shade their moral principles and chosen politics without the hard work of examining their political philosophies in the glare of the hot sun.
ACORN is a horrid political organization that offered advice on how to set up a child prostitution ring. If one’s politics requires one to defend such an organization (as ACORN), then perhaps it is time to ponder one’s political beliefs.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:25 pmToo funny, SPQR. That is quite telling.
I like his “didn’t occur” argument — hysterical.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:42 pmPons, you will find more amusing stuff if you google up the coverage of how Bloomberg’s investigations blew up in his face, given his investigators illegal actions.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/18/2010 @ 1:44 pmIf O’Keefe was an undercover investigator for the FBI, instead of an investigative journalist, what would change, outside of the immediacy of the filing of charges against ACORN as a corrupt organization?
AD - RtR/OS! (7a1f69) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:15 pmIn both cases, the advice that ACORN gave was a willful evasion of statutory law. By doing so repeatedly, in more than one location, they self-identify (to sentient beings – Bob Ross evidently not among them) that they should fall under the provisions of RICO.
“Daley enron doesnt exist anymore.”
Bob Ross – Does ACORN exist anymore? Stupid dodge to avoid answering the question. Focus Bob and just answer. People cover what they want to cover on their own blogs. Start your own blog if you want to cover Dyncorp and Halliburton.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:23 pm“Yes alleged is right.”
Bob – That’s all you needed to say instead of your endless bloviating and blathering.
With respect to your nattering on and on about a fictional child prostitution ring, do you have any evidence that the ACORN employees captured on tape did not believe the story they were being told. If so, produce it. That after all, is all that matters. Viewers of the tapes, including the IRS, the Census Bureau, the House and Senate were certainly convinced. Somnehow braindead fringe lefty losers like yourself and the other Bradbots have convinced yourselves otherwise.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:29 pmIt is because they enthusiastically endorse, and utiliyze, child-prostitution, so what could be wrong?
AD - RtR/OS! (7a1f69) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:33 pmBTW, what is Polanski’s position on ACORN.
“Acorn is required by law to turn in all registrations. Obviously bogus ones they flag.”
Bob – Have you seen anyone apart from ACORN claim that they flag the bogus registrations? I have only seen one election official from Indiana mention it. I think the claim is taking on the proportion of an urban myth without independent corroboration.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:34 pmBob – Why don’t you pass on the following link to the slimeballs over at Brad Blog. I’m sure they’ll enjoy the reading:
http://republicans.oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/20100218followthemoneyacornseiuandtheirpoliticalallies.pdf
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/18/2010 @ 2:37 pmI respectfully disagree. As I understand it, those particular tapes show Bloomberg’s agents engaging in “strawman” purchases, which is illegal on the part of the buyer. Bloomberg should be the one in jail. The ATF response to an inquiry from the Second Amendment Foundation. Of course, the chances that Holder will do anything…
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 3/18/2010 @ 3:30 pmAhh… I see SPQR beat me to it. Well, I had a link! 😉
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 3/18/2010 @ 3:33 pmAnd a fine link it was, Stashiu3.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/18/2010 @ 4:08 pm@129 Stashiu, yeah I see that now. I was giving Bob Ross the benefit of the doubt since I had not seen the video he referenced . He did not present all the pertinent data, and what he selected rendered a skewed picture of reality. He is doing the exact same thing with ACORN.
I should have known better.
—
Daleyrocks’ link shows that ACORN is truly a criminal enterprise. Its scope is incredible.
It would prove most interesting if Bob Ross maintains his defense of ACORN in light of this information. His propensity for ignoring pertinent data and his desire to defend anything liberal regardless of moral principle does not bode well for him.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/18/2010 @ 8:29 pmPons – That link is pretty good, but a large pdf. I enjoyed all the insiders testifying and presenting evidence. The rats are deserting the sinking ship.
I don’t think Brad and Ernie have talked about the illegal recording suit in Maryland that ACORN never served on O’Keefe which lapsed due to the passage of time. Why haven’t they pursued anything in California if they feel wronged? I don’t recall them discussing ACORN fleeing Ohio rather than facing trial there over RICO type allegations.
Bob, Brad, Ernie and the lads are just a bunch of turds swirling around the drain.
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/18/2010 @ 8:57 pmPonis 115 ah so now you’re trying to say there was a philosphical breaking of the law. Contrary to your beliefs our laws dont work that way. Sure they gave advice but where is giving bad advice a breaking of the law? They apparently didnt think enough to complete things by filling out the necessary paperwork.
Ponis once again you are claiming something tha happen. There was no child prostitution in Acorn’s case no investigation has turned up showing them enabling child prostitution. I deal with facts what exactly are you dealing in?
Acorn has no true power they’re small and thats why theyre having to break up into smaller entitiesl
Now if thats what you think are not the banks and insurance industries equally corrupt by pouring millions, rallying their supporters, etc. If thats your measure of corruption
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 4:45 am116 Okeefe isnt a journalist. Please me where he got his degree from. Again youre saying they helped set up a prostitution ring this is false. There was no prostitution ring. You keep repeating this as if it were true.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 4:50 am117 no ponis it is relevant. There’s a reason Okeefe didnt show takes of him being turned away. He was trying to show that this bad advice giving was the norm at Acorn, that he wasnt turned away. He originally even claimed such. Okeefe’s intentions were clear. A former colleague of his had previously asked her to edit a script in such a way to make a planned parenthood nurse look bad. She stated he was cherry picking statements, providing no context.
Yes the other tapes would matter. Which is one of your points if he was trying to show legal transactions were far and few he wouldnt show the other tapes. Its completely agenda driven.
Once again no child exploitation tok place, no children were involved, no prostitution. Stop saying something that isnt true Ponis.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 4:59 am118 SPQR I used it to show what undercover investigations look like. Which law did the investigatora break SPQR.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:04 am119 Reading through the transcripts and taking in the full context Okeefe says hes not going to be apart of the business then says he is. He says hes not going to live in the house then says he is. The videos were edited. Read the full transcripts carefully. Parts of the transcript were cherry picked for the videos. But reading the full transcripts shows contradictions.
The transcripts have the low level employee telling them giles to file taxes to report income.
You have repeated several times that they helped child exploitation and child prostitution, these statements by you are false.
Fancy it up however you like Trebek, you have no proof they “allowed, encouraged or condoned” illegal or immoral behavior. In fact just the opposite, those involved were fired when it was brought to their attention. Even so you have low level part timers who have no power within Acorn.
Continually saying that there was child exploitation when there was not is unintelligent. You havent even made it clear youve done anything but watch the edited tapes which provide little context.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:18 am120 Ponis I disagree, this does seem a bit political. What do you actually have against acorn. Youre judging the whole organization based off a few low level part time staffers who were subsequently fired. You have not shown this to be prevelant. You can keep rewording it whatever way you want but youre still making a false statement there was no assisting of child exploitation nor helping to set up one. Continually claiming such is dishonest on your part.
How about this: Yes or no
Was there a prostitution ring?
Were there any children involved?
Did Acorn actively set up one?
If you answer yes to all 3 then its clear you aim to be dishonest.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:26 amAD willful evasion of the law? They were told to file their taxes and claim their income. If giving advice were a problem Yoo and crew would be in trouble for willful evasion of torture statutes for their advice.
Low level employees who were involved were fired. Obviously Acorn took action.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:31 amTo answer your question Daley yes Acorn does still exist. But if you want to talk enron. It was internal policy at Enron to defraud the state of California and price gouge them on energy prices during the energy crisis they had. This was from high up not low level staffers who were subsequently fired.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:34 amDaley it has nothing to do with what they believed they’re not lawyers. The transcripts in fact make things less clear. Reading the brooklyn transcript shows the staffer was confused about what they were talking about for most of the “investigation”.
Braindead lefty losers? Ah onto ad hominems. I have not stated my position on social or economic issues for you to even have an inkling of where I stand on the idealogical scale. I have not personally insulted you but you feel the need to lower the bar of reasonable debate down to that of a 2nd grade playground.
Yeah but the senate was wrong and the federal court ruled their bill of attainder unconstitutional.
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:42 amPonis I thought we were talking about Okeefe and Acorn. Now youre claiming im defending all liberal positions. Thats absurd on its face
Bob Ross (1dcd49) — 3/19/2010 @ 5:47 amNo. You don’t understand it (and probably never will).
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/19/2010 @ 1:00 pmWho is obsessed?
JD (0f01b6) — 3/19/2010 @ 1:18 pm#137 Bob Ross, amusing that you can’t do your own research. Bloomberg’s investigators performed straw purchases and made false statements on form 4473’s in violation of federal law as described above.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/19/2010 @ 1:29 pm(@135, 136, 138, 139 Bob Ross)
You repeatedly state claims that I have made are “dishonest”. Upon evaluating your statements, you have miswritten or completely misstated my claims (by design or mistake I am not certain as your reading comprehension proves…selective). I mistakenly accepted your integrity as a given, but that quickly proved a mistake (indeed, by way of a small example, you have consistently misspelled my pseudonym, despite me spelling yours properly). If you have the courage, time and inclination, re-read them carefully without assumptions. In short; I dare you to be wise.
If not, then worry no further.
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Bob Ross, consider that you are standing with an organization that offered advice on child prostitution; if you do not beleive that ever happened, please examine the empirical evidence as linked above (of course you are still free to ignore, dismiss or excuse it).
The ludicrous argument that those that offer advice helpful to a child prostitution ring as a result of an undercover operation are not morally and legally accountable ignores the reality of the attempt, intention, and effort made. You even implicitly admit as much when you state that the employees responsible were fired (by your logic: since no such ring was made, then they should not be accountable). Ludicrous, but arguably that is all you have.
Apologists and defenders of ACORN do not have logical constructs to offer that is within the scope of reason and moral thought. Instead they must ignore pertinent information, deny empirical evidence, craft irrelevant fictions, cling to legal fictions, and embrace falsehoods.
ACORN is a massive criminal enterprise that is being investigated by almost every state in the union. They stand accused of voter fraud and money laundering, but they crossed a whole new line when some of its employees offered advice on child prostitution (repeatedly). They crossed into the realm of those who prey on children. Something you so readily excuse (dismiss, ignore, or otherwise justify).
For ACORN and its supporters, perhaps the most damning of all: rather than thanking O’Keefe for finding this out, and then taking steps by inviting law enforcement to help investigate and help ensure its integrity, they rallied to deny and attack those that dared to expose them.
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Bob Ross, we are two completely different people. The only thing we have in common is that we both have proudly taken our positions. We find ourselves opposed in almost every way that matters:
*You beleive that the Bloomsburg report (that you cited) is the height of unbiased journalistic behavior, that O’Keefe is not a journalist, and Liberal politics/alliances have nothing to do with the defense of ACORN. I completely disagree.
*You wish to pretend that ACORN’s advice on setting up a child prostitution ring was not caught on tape.
*You wish to pretend that the ACORN employees who offered that advice did not believe they were addressing genuine clients.
*You wish to equate reality without a comprehensive evaluation of all the facts, whereas I equate such a stance as fiction.
*You equate justice with paperwork, whereas I equate justice with Natural Law (written in the human heart).
*You find it easy to ignore pertinent data, whereas I insist upon recognizing it.
*You do not require logic to make a conclusion, whereas I demand it.
*You seek to keep dark secrets forever dark, whereas I applaud efforts to expose them.
*You stand with those who are prepared to sacrifice the well-being of children for political beliefs, whereas I feel compelled to defend children, despite my politics.
In short, I will forever be against child prostitution and those that knowingly or unknownly support it by way of defending, excusing, dismissing, shielding, ignoring or apologizing for it.
It really is not that hard to figure-out: what ACORN did is immoral. Good luck Bob.
Pons Asinorum (1f16cc) — 3/19/2010 @ 1:39 pm146 Ive done my research. The investigators made it painfully obvious what they were doing during the straw purchases. Those are straw purchases the person doing the buying is the straw man. Why exactly did the dealer sell knowing it was a straw purchase? Also that wasnt the more damning aspect. The dealer sold to people they had reason to believe would fail a background check. The videos made that clear. Also the point being that the bloomberg people released the videos good and bad and didnt try to force a narrative like Okeefe was doing. He lied originally that noone turned him away. If this was such a good investigation he did he would have immediately released the full tapes unedited and not hid from reporters questions straight after he did.
Bob Ross (15d954) — 3/24/2010 @ 1:38 pmPonis 147 again youre claiming something that wasnt. There as no child prostitution ring. They were not being investigated in multiple states. Indictments are against former employees and not the organization. Employees who were defrauding Acorn trying to make money by faking registrations. There was no voter fraud. You had voter registration fraud two separate things. Time and time again you state things that arent even when corrected on it.
No the bloomberg point was about releasing the tapes good or bad which Okeefe failed to do. We’re talking a supposed investigation which didnt have the markings of an investigation. Instead a kid whose former colleague has stated he tried to get her to edit scripts and cherry pick dialogue without context to form an agenda based narrative. There was nothing altruistic or unbiased in Okeefe’s game of dressup.
Our system doesnt exist off of natural law but rather positive law. Under natural law any wrong you did m would be able to pay back in kind. Our system doesnt work like that.
Again youre claiming a philosphical breaking of the law.
So Ill ask you did John Yoo, David Addington and crew break natural law when advising on torture accroding to your view that acorn somehow did?
Bob Ross (15d954) — 3/24/2010 @ 2:04 pmOnce again, you are making claims that I did not make and then asserting that I did. Cannot help you there, but understand your need to do this, because responding my actual assertions in a direct fashion would force you to admit your falsehoods.
Equating the physical existence of an child prostitution ring with an undercover operation and then using the ring’s absence as evidence that no wrong doing has occurred in the undercover operation is intellectually childish and silly.
It’s like equating the flatness of the earth as proof that the planet is not round. (Have you seen the curvature of the earth from your house? “If you answer yes then you are being dishonest.”)
In both cases there are several facts that are pertinent and must be evaluated to come to a logical and honest conclusion; empirical evidence being the strongest, which you have consistently ignored (in the case of ACORN’s involvement). The fact that you willingly choose to ignore it and then make up assertions in which you insist on crediting me, simply places emphasis on your falsehoods and the hollowness of your arguments. You have nothing left in which to debate honestly and intellectually.
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Your assertion is refuted by Daleyrock’s link (@128) to the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (starts on page 3).
First finding:
Second finding:
Third finding:
Fourth finding:
Your need to cling to false assertions would at least be slowed down if you read material rather than tried to echo talking points.
Pons Asinorum (be2d18) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:00 pmYou were dishonest about Bloomberg’s report, as mentioned here @122, here @129 (with link), and here @146. You have absolutely no credibility.
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You could not be more wrong. Concepts like innocent until proven guilty, reparations, juries, judges…the whole thing comes from Natural Law.
The idea of natural rights makes the cornerstone of law as described in the Constitution. All which come out of Natural Law (rights and prohibitions). Please do not worry about this concept, because it requires a rigorous logical treatment and strict attention to an idealized sense of justice driven by morality. No way we are ever going to agree on that, as made clear by your defense of ACORN and its attempt to assist child prostitution (and I’ll just say it because you refuse to recognize it — “that they thought was real as evidenced in the video links”).
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False; what ACORN did was wrong because child exploitation is wrong.
Pons Asinorum (be2d18) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:03 pmAgain, you insist on changing the subject from what ACORN has done. What you claim are my views of ACORN are typically false (you simply pretend I make assertions and then argue against them).
The reason you are so earnest in changing the subject is because you have nothing left to debate and desire to hide (into yet another liberal topic).
You are lost Bob Ross, as ACORN itself tries to dissolve. Some of its supporters have been caught lying by what would otherwise be political allies. You have no citations or references to prove your assertions, just falsehoods and misinterpretations to the counterpoints offered to you.
ACORN’s defenders are left with resorting to either ridiculous assertions (O’Keefe was not dressed as a pimp), or ignoring data (see the excerpt below, from Patterico’s blog linked above).
Consider not supporting/defending an organization that offered advice helpful to a child prostitution ring (and do I need to state it — “that they thought was real as evidenced in the video links”). Go with the evidence, not against it, and you will not have to make up assertions or ignore relevant facts when rendering a conclusion.
Pons Asinorum (be2d18) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:11 pm“If this was such a good investigation he did he would have immediately released the full tapes unedited and not hid from reporters questions straight after he did.”
Bob – You’re full of it. First you make a completely BS point that he doesn’t have a journalism degree and now you pull this crap? Can you show me the journalism manual where it says you are supposed to release the full unedited video immediately, please?
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:13 pmWhere else is that standard applied Bob? Nightly news? MSM?
Bob is obsessed with this topic. Period. Full stop.
JD (355e34) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:24 pmJD – Bob is now complaining over at Bradblog that the standard over here is the strawman argument he has raised himself. What a buffoon!
daleyrocks (718861) — 3/25/2010 @ 5:36 pmJust saw the unedited tapes, absolutely hilarious how completely Fox spinned it and how many people fell for it.
I do feel kind of bad for the one Acorn guy who asked them questions to find out where the underage girls were, then as soon as they left the office, he called the cops with that information. He got fired.
david anderson (4a2e8b) — 4/6/2010 @ 11:43 pmPeople named anderson have been shown to be very good at spinning fairy tales for children…
AD - RtR/OS! (cf9e75) — 4/7/2010 @ 12:00 amwhich is why your task here is next to impossible.