Guns and Arrows
[Guest post by DRJ]
A vacant home, a vigilant neighbor, and a wounded man who may be a prowler … this Washington State story sounds like a more extreme version of the Joe Horn case **:
“Police here say a man used his compound bow to interrupt an apparent break-in at a nearby vacant home, wounding a fleeing man in the buttocks.
Police say the Kelso man grabbed his hunting bow late Sunday night and chased a suspected prowler for more than three blocks. When the fleeing man refused to stop, the bowhunter shot him with a broadhead arrow.
A 32-year-old Longview man later sought treatment at St. John Medical Center for an arrow wound to the left buttock. Doctors removed the arrow tip and the man was listed in satisfactory condition Monday.”
One obvious difference between this incident and Joe Horn’s case is that this suspected prowler had left the property. In addition, I don’t know how far Washington State law lets citizens go in the use of force to defend a third party’s property.
Police say they are investigating and charges are possible against both men.
— DRJ
** NOTE: More here on Joe Horn.
Ouch
I’d rather take a bullet
SteveG (909b57) — 12/15/2009 @ 5:28 pmPolice say the Kelso man grabbed his hunting bow late Sunday night and chased a suspected prowler for more than three blocks. When the fleeing man refused to stop, the bowhunter shot him with a broadhead arrow.
Yeah, if some Indian were chasing me with a bow and arrow I would not stop either. 😉
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 5:41 pmGenerally, once they have left the property, you are in trouble if you shoot them, especially if you don’t kill them.
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/15/2009 @ 5:45 pmThat burglar might have been running off with all of his neighbors money so you got to bring the bastard to justice. Even if the burglar didn’t find anything to steal, the neighborhood watchman couldn’t have known that and deadly force is justified, regardless of what laws they have on the books there. Any reasonable jury will acquit the watchman and make the burglar pay for the arrow that was extracted from his ass.
j curtis (5126e4) — 12/15/2009 @ 5:50 pmDid the suspect have the good sense not to confess to the burglary?
“I’m walkig down the street, minding my own business, and some guy comes after me with a bow and arrow. ….”
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 5:56 pmI see an easy case of attempt (sic) murder for the archer. The suspected burglar not so much if he keeps his mouth shut.
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:01 pmThis guy definitely needs to get a reality show with the kid from Baltimore who killed the burglar with the samurai sword. And Ted Nugent.
pinandpuller (ac62c3) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:07 pmGenerally speaking, it’s a bad habit to shoot people in the back, with an arrow or anything else.
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:11 pmI think they can call it good.
happyfeet (2c63dd) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:14 pmThe guy would have picked getting shot in the back if you’d asked him I think but I might could be projecting.
happyfeet (2c63dd) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:16 pmI shot an arrow into the air
It came to earth, I knew not where;
For, so swiftly it flew, the sight
Could not follow it in its flight.
When the arrow lit, it came to pass
Struck a burgler in his ass.
Longfellow, edited.
tmac (5559f7) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:20 pmI doubt that that is how he describes his condition…
Which is why you are supposed to shoot them in the leg until they turn around…
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:03 pmAmazing how some people see attempted murder in it. I see a citizen using force to effect a citizen’s arrest, which in Washington is even allowed for misdemeanors.
Paul (fc340f) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:03 pmPaul, what nk sees is possible charges, same as me.
He was three blocks away. There was no defense of property at that point.
And the cops aren’t allowed to shoot a fleeing suspect even if he just shot someone 30 seconds ago. You can bet that Washington law doesn’t allow for deadly force – which is what a broad-head arrow is – by a citizen to affect an arrest.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:13 pmThat strikes me as counter-productive.
Techie (43d092) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:23 pmNo, it is a ruling from the Supreme Court. You can’t shoot a fleeing suspect to affect an arrest.
If a cop feels the suspect is an immediate danger – and I mean “right that fucking instant” – then the issue gets a little more hazy, but that isn’t the case here anyways.
There is no reasonable belief that this guy was an immediate threat, and so the use of deadly force is absolutely unlawful.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:28 pmI see a citizen using force to effect a citizen’s arrest, which in Washington is even allowed for misdemeanors.
And which, in Nazi Germany, allowed the SS, an arm of a political party and not of the constitutional government, to have concentration camps.
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:32 pmWhy can’t it be both?
ras (1d003b) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:51 pmBecause he is suggesting that lethal force is a reasonable way to stop someone from fleeing when the crime is a misdemeanor.
Do you really want to say that it’s ok for the cops to wing your kid in the leg because junior didn’t wanna be caught with a can of Pabst when he’s 19?
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 7:57 pmnk…I have arrested people in Washington more than once, but never (to my knowledge) did it cause an arm of a political party to build a concetration camp.
And people in general should consider that policies regarding how cops handle things and laws concernign how citizens should handle things are, and should be, vastly different. Citizens can, in many circumstances, use force to arrest someone they see committing a crime.
And accused criminals could stop, and wait for the cops to sort it out, rather than getting an arrow in the ass. Law-abiding citizens would have every right to file a grievance against the arresting party if the action was unwarranted.
Me, I’m not for “you should be allowed to get away with a crime if you run”.
Paul (fc340f) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:05 pmThere’s an artery in your leg what if you nick it with a good-sized arrow you’ll bleed to death fairly quickly. I see it on the tv sometimes. On tv when you die it’s almost always fairly quickly, especially when arrows are involved. Sometimes they do that thing where they say don’t pull the arrow out he’ll bleed to death and if they say that it means the guy’s going to live whether they pull the arrow out or not. If they pull the arrow out they’re not gonna go oops yup looks like he’s bleeding to death. If they don’t pull it put it means they are wisely making the Right Choice. If they don’t discuss whether or not they should pull out the arrow usually that means there’s gonna be a funeral. But you never know.
happyfeet (2c63dd) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:13 pmIf they don’t pull it *out* I mean.
happyfeet (2c63dd) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:15 pmBut not LETHAL force. Lethal force is often life-ending, and you are innocent until proven guilty. Do you want me to be allowed to shoot at you if you back into my car and then drive off without giving me your insurance information?
Fuck you, buddy. Some random asshole chases ME with a bow and arrow, I’m running.
“Well, if he didn’t do anything, why run” you say?
Dude, that’s the guy who runs the FASTEST.
And if my kid gets killed because you wanted to play Dirty Harry after junior TPed your front tree and didn’t wanna stick around when you opened your door and you end up chasing him for three blocks and THEN shooting him, what sort of grievance do you suggest be filed to get my son back, hmm?
YOU, my ignorant friend, are not Detective Riggs in Lethal Weapon. You don’t get to let fly the death because people don’t do as you tell them when you THINK you are right.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:17 pmYeah, there’s no way to first aid a femoral artery blled.
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:21 pmor *bleed*
nk (df76d4) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:21 pmIf things are to the point where I need to pull out a life threatening weapon, I am not going to be arresting someone like Barney Fife.
I think it’s foolish to pull a weapon on bitter nutcase who will be around to fight another day if you aren’t ready to end his life. I also am not going to be shooting anyone in their leg unless I miss.
Ah, though I am almost certainly never going to have to shoot anyone. I’d have to put my gun together and take all the grease off of it and get some ammo and put on some glasses. My wife would probably be reloading her magazines before I had a chance to worry about it. That’s how you deal with this: wives. You can’t buy a new life, but you can buy a new wife.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:22 pmIt’s the femoral artery, and yeah, pretty much any sort of puncture, to my understanding, leads to you bleeding out very, very quickly. Sever it, and you bleed out in less than a couple of minutes.
For any serious puncture wound, you are supposed to leave the object in place, because you have no idea what organ or blood vessel it caught on the way through, and its presence (and the associated pressure it is placing on the organs/vessels) might well be the only thing keeping that person from dying right there.
That goes for re-bar, the shaft of a golf club, arrows, really long nails, whatever.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:25 pmIf you place the tourniquet perfectly, you can buy a few minutes or so.
But usually no. You have to stop the blood flow by somehow clamping the bleeder. That isn’t something even paramedics can likely do, and they won’t get there soon enough anyways.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 8:29 pmThere is no reasonable belief that this guy was an immediate threat, and so the use of deadly force is absolutely unlawful.
Comment by Scott Jacobs — 12/15/2009 @ 7:28 pm
Are you saying that all citizens of the law abiding community should let you and your type rob us blind while trying to decide if you are an immediate threat? Wouldn’t if be best to end your life with all sorts of projectiles from devices like bows and guns?
j curtis (5126e4) — 12/15/2009 @ 10:11 pmwhat type do you think Scott is?
Thought I agree with J that someone breaking into a house should be considered a violent threat unless you know they know there’s nobody home. It’s hard to establish the facts sometimes, and this should be an affirmative defense, so if you really see someone committing a crime like this, perhaps get that cell phone video camera humming (for your lawyer to look at).
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/15/2009 @ 10:23 pmSeriously? I point out the fucking LAW, and you liken me to a fucking criminal? Are you God Damn HIGH son?
Go ahead. Shoot the next guy you see tagging a building and who runs when you produce that gun and scream “CITIZEN’S ARREST!!!”
Just promise to call me once you’re in prison for either murder, attempted murder, manslaughter or attempted manslaughter (or if nothing else “assault with a deadly weapon”), ok? I will enjoy the laugh.
I’ll say it again: You idiots are not cops, and even if you were, you aren’t allowed to shoot a burglar to get him to stop running. Period.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 10:24 pmBest way to deal with taggers is to accidentally leave a felt pen near them while they are waiting to see their PO… therein lies the green bus to Wasco
SteveG (ece883) — 12/15/2009 @ 10:51 pm“You idiots are not cops, and even if you were, you aren’t allowed to shoot a burglar to get him to stop running. Period.” except in limited situations in God’s country (Texas).
Someone running with my PS3 is going to get their head blown off if my wife sees them (I wouldn’t notice, since I am blind and like board games). OK, they aren’t, but I understand why Texas wants to eliminate concerns a homeowner might have to shooting crooks. There’s something immoral about killing someone because they are running off with your property (in my book). If I shoot someone, it’s because I actually need to, and I don’t care what a police officer thinks of it (no offense to them, but it doesn’t matter), and would seriously consider not reporting the event.
If you’re aiming guns at people, it shouldn’t matter what someone wrote in a book. You’re either not interested or you really need to defend somebody.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:00 pmStrikethrough HTML failed to cross out ‘Period’ in that quote.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:01 pmAnd that’s fine.
But this dude was shot in the ass THREE BLOCKS AWAY.
Even in Texas that’s out of bounds for the “defense of another”.
That’s what people I guess are missing. It was a three block chase. They were three blocks away from the site of the ATTEMPTED break-in.
The guy wasn’t getting away with loot, he was prevented from getting that far.
And ignoring that, even in Texas, you can’t get away with chasing someone for three blocks and then shooting them.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:26 pmActually, Scott, you’d be surprised what the law in Texas permits for defense of property.
You may wish to review some of the past threads here on Patterico’s site about the Joe Horn case before making blanket statements that are not in fact accurate.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:34 pmIt was probably easier than trying to get an elk though… the day comes when I can’t outrun a guy lugging a compound bow after three blocks is the day I give up my life of crime
SteveG (ece883) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:52 pmHorn was next door. He didn’t chase the man several blocks before firing.
The cases are not similar.
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/15/2009 @ 11:52 pmScott, you’re right… three block chase is way ridiculous for trying to kill some burglar. And like I say, I don’t care if that’s illegal or not… it’s wrong.
Texas does permit me to shoot someone that I see stealing my neighbor’s stuff (to some extent… there’s a case where I’m at about some idiot shooting someone who stole his friend’s beer, and that’s murder).
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/16/2009 @ 12:08 amScott, so you didn’t review the threads on the actual Texas law in question.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/16/2009 @ 12:08 amYou know, I probably would have…
If this case had happened in Texas…
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 12/16/2009 @ 12:15 amTo Recap:
Paul (fc340f) — 12/16/2009 @ 12:42 amScott: “And ignoring that, even in Texas, you can’t get away with chasing someone for three blocks and then shooting them.”
Other Commenters: “Yes you can”
Scott: “I’m not talking about Texas even though I quoted someone’s comments about Texas law, and argued about what Texas law allows. And said Texas. Twice. Point is, you people are still idiots even though I can’t keep my own comments straight. Respect that I must know something about some law, somewhere. Or something. Idiots.”
Hey didn’t Rambo or one of his sidekick look a likes have some arrows that blew shit up?
Yeah give me one of those.
TC (0b9ca4) — 12/16/2009 @ 1:14 amNot sure of the law, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see the guy charged because he chased him for 3 blks. Don’t most places only allow a person to defend themselves on their own property?
JEA (0ccd61) — 12/16/2009 @ 5:13 am43.Hey didn’t Rambo or one of his sidekick look a likes have some arrows that blew shit up?
Yeah give me one of those.
Comment by TC — 12/16/2009 @ 1:14 am
The bow and arrow scene in Hotshots: Part Deux is much better than the one in Rambo.
[note: released from moderation filter. –Stashiu]
nk (df76d4) — 12/16/2009 @ 5:24 amHere you go, TC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI9GNvvdqtg Safe for work unless you work for PETA or the ASPCA. 😉
nk (df76d4) — 12/16/2009 @ 5:35 amI object to the title. There are no guns in this story. Nor are there any Indians.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 12/16/2009 @ 5:41 am#37, SteveG said, “…the day comes when I can’t outrun a guy lugging a compound bow after three blocks is the day I give up my life of crime.”
He’s got a point. Since the subject property was vacant, the perp was unlikely burdened with swag, and any B&E man worth his salt ought to be able to pick ‘um up and lay ‘um down.
Best strong-arm robber of my acquaintance would practise several alternative get-aways days in advance. On foot alone, he could be 5 miles away from the scene of the crime in under 30 minutes. That neat little trick saved his sorry rear end more than once.
ropelight (51072e) — 12/16/2009 @ 9:43 amWTG NK!
Now that’s what I’m talkin about.
Take that arrow up your backside, go ahead tell us tail, punk!! 🙂
Yeah and your gonna try and convince us you did not steal this egg from that house? 🙂
TC (0b9ca4) — 12/16/2009 @ 1:24 pm