Patterico's Pontifications

11/7/2009

Health Care Vote (Updated with Final Vote)

Filed under: Government,Health Care — DRJ @ 7:23 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

The Stupak amendment (abortion) was adopted with the support of 64 Democrats. The House is considering a Motion to Recommit, and a vote on HB 3962 is expected shortly.

— DRJ

UPDATE — The final vote:

Democratic: Yea – 219; Nay – 39
Republican: Yea – 1; Nay – 176
Total: Yea – 220; Nay – 215

HB 3962 passed. One Republican, voted for it. C-SPAN says the Republican vote came from Anh “Joseph” Cao, a Vietnamese immigrant and freshman Lousiana Congressman who took over William Jefferson’s seat.

212 Responses to “Health Care Vote (Updated with Final Vote)”

  1. will someone please explain to my how abortion ever got to be a Federal issue?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  2. This whole “debate” has been surreal, and not in a good way.

    Wilson McEllers (42a8c3)

  3. I would note that Barcky’s comments today referenced this legislation putting us at the cusp of what should be done. If this legislation only puts us at the cusp, what the hell more does he want?

    JD (b9ca6b)

  4. This is going to pass; they wouldn’t be holding a vote otherwise. The question now is whether the Senate can pass a bill, and whether the bill can pass both chambers a second time after reconciliation.

    Also, there will be a number of changed votes before this is over. If the initial final roll is something like 225-210, watch a handful of blue dogs racing to switch their vote to “no” till the final winds up at 218-217; if it initially fails watch for Pelosi to hold the vote open for a few days until the magic 218th vote is case.

    Sean P (50f5d9)

  5. If the Senate gets cloture, it is all over.

    Our Republic falls.

    Ed from SFV (1333b1)

  6. Looks like Rep. Anh Cao just gave Pelosi an excuse to spout off a bunch of bullshit about “bipartisanship”.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  7. That said… can the melodrama, Ed.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  8. Better Half just said a stream of Vietnamese under her breath that I had never heard before. But I recognize the tone quite well.

    JD (b9ca6b)

  9. David Shuster is trying to out-douchenozzle Olbergasm and MadCow. Good allah, he is bad.

    JD (b9ca6b)

  10. 39 Democrats in dangerous seats (could go Republican next year) were given permission to vote no. That’s how I see it in my cynical eyes. And the lone Republican? He just bought himself a difficult Primary.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  11. The Senate will fold.

    It’s a dark day.

    Patricia (b05e7f)

  12. Eh, the guy who took over Jefferson’s seat was obviously going to be a big government liberal, no matter what capital letter followed his name.

    JVW (d32e06)

  13. You can kiss your investments goodbye. (Mmmwaah!)

    Official Internet Data Office (967528)

  14. We lost the Republic in the last election. These are just the death throes. I think eventually it ends with blood in the streets because the social compact on which the country is based has been breached. I certainly do not consider the actions of this government to be legitimate. The country is divided in a way that it has not been divided since the Civil War… and frankly, people are tired of pretending that just because their neighbors vote to rob them that they have to hand over the cash. They are tired of being preyed upon. But they are outnumbered by the ravening masses set one against the other, fighting for crumbs from other people’s plates.

    Once health care is nationalized the next step is to import enough citizens of other countries to make sure that the Dems stay in power. The fix is in and frankly, I don’t see anything that can be done to stop it. The census has already been fixed since it will count illegal aliens. If the Senate votes to take over another sixth of our economy then it is over. It will never be repealed. There will never be 60 votes for it. The principles on which the country was founded will have been abandoned.

    Other means will have to be used to take the country back… legal challenges, civil disobedience and eventually… there will be chains or there will be violence. I think we accept our serfdom because we are at heart cowards whose lives have been too easy. It is just too hard to resist the inevitable. Better to let the next generation suffer and pass the torch of liberty to… no one. The last, best hope of mankind will have faltered and the flame of liberty will have been extinguished from this once good Earth.

    Other than that things are just peachy!

    Serfer Dude (1e2a18)

  15. time to buy more ammo, while i can.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  16. 12.39 Democrats in dangerous seats (could go Republican next year) were given permission to vote no. That’s how I see it in my cynical eyes.

    John Hitchcock: That’s not cynical at all. That’s politics and exactly what happened. Pelosi let as many people in conservative districts out of the vote as she could. The only surprise is the Cao vote. I hope this doesn’t inspire a backlash against him from a party desperately in need of diversity. But of course, the Dems will take him.

    I was one of the few people who’d have rather won the two house seats than the two governorships, if forced to choose. We can always flip governor’s seats later (and in the case of VA at least, McDonnell is better for the state.) This reform train is coming around now and may not come around for a while if it doesn’t get done now.

    Both the two new members voted for reform, giving two other members breathing room. I guess I have Sarah Palin and the rightists — shudder — to thank for NY-23.

    Long way to go, and I called this result several weeks back, so I’m not getting overly excited. The real battle is in the senate where the Lieberman Problem awaits, but where I believe reform will still pass in some reduced form.

    BTW, I think Pelosi played this brilliantly with the Stupek Admendment.

    And yeah, I agree with Leviticus that we can do without the melodrama. The rest of the western world has universal care that is truly government-run and — amazingly — these countries still stand.

    Myron (63564c)

  17. Myron – Those countries have lousy health care that depends on the advances made in this country for any success thay have at all.

    The only reason the Canadian system is sustainable to this time is the strain taken off of it by teh presence of the US.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  18. Have Blue: Is it your contention that the U.S. has the only decent health care system in the western world?

    Myron (63564c)

  19. those grapes sure are sour, aren’t they Myron.

    steve miller (dae725)

  20. Myron and Leviticus,

    Where was your concern for melodrama when liberals argued Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib threatened the civil liberties of all Americans?

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  21. Meanwhile, the administration of President Goddamn America behaves towards opposing viewpoints accordingly…

    LA Times, November 6:

    At least one Democratic political strategist has gotten a blunt warning from the White House to never appear on Fox News Channel, an outlet that presidential aides have depicted as not so much a news-gathering operation as a political opponent bent on damaging the Obama administration.

    One Democratic strategist said that shortly after an appearance on Fox, he got a phone call from a White House official telling him not to be a guest on the show again. The call had an intimidating tone, he said.

    The message was, ” ‘We better not see you on again,’ ” said the strategist, who spoke on condition of anonymity so as not to run afoul of the White House. An implicit suggestion, he said, was that “clients might stop using you if you continue.”

    In urging Democratic consultants to spurn Fox, White House officials might be trying to isolate the network and make it appear more partisan.

    …Patrick Caddell, a Fox News contributor and a former pollster for President Carter, said he has spoken to Democratic consultants who have been told by the White House to avoid appearances on Fox. He declined to give their names.

    Caddell said he had not gotten that message himself from the White House. “They know better than to tell me anything like that,” he said.

    Caddell added: “I have heard that they’ve done that to others in not-too-subtle ways. I find it appalling. When the White House gets in the business of suppressing dissent and comment, particularly from its own party, it hurts itself.”

    Don Fowler, a former Democratic National Committee chairman, said in an interview: “This approach is out of sync with my conception of what the Obama administration stands for and what they’re trying to do. I think they’ll think better of it and this will be a passing phase.”

    A “passing phase!?” Yep, I can easily envision the current occupant of the Oval Office becoming even WORSE — entering a phase somewhat along the lines of a North-American version of Hugo Chavez and Manuel Zelaya — in the upcoming months.

    Mark (411533)

  22. The rest of the western world …

    Comment by Myron — 11/7/2009 @ 8:56 pm

    Moron …. America is America. The rest of the western world is what is we were supposed to get away from.

    nk (df76d4)

  23. “The rest of the western world has universal care that is truly government-run and — amazingly — these countries still stand”
    Indeed, crappily they do. And their health care sucks.

    JB2 (8a32c3)

  24. 21.those grapes sure are sour, aren’t they Myron.

    Huh? Why would I have sour grapes? I want reform.

    Myron (63564c)

  25. On a side note: Myron, not everyone feels the same as you re that government run health care – especially those who have had to actually live with it (unlike us or Mrs. Pelosi):

    Upon reading this NYT claim that “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

    …my friend who resides in South Africa but previously lived in Britain, responds,

    Bollocks! Having lived under the British NHS I remember it as an expensive form of “stealth tax” which ate up over half of my already miniscule salary. I’ve read that, after the Chinese army and Indian railways, the British Health system is the world’s largest employer and yet people queue all night just to get on the books of a dentist. Is it any wonder Britons are afflicted with such poor teeth? Their hospitals are breeding grounds for super bugs not even found in Africa.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  26. DRJ: That’s not melodrama. Torturing and abusing prisoners of war and letting the world know threatens our long-term security. I don’t see the parallel.

    Myron (63564c)

  27. Going bankrupt isn’t melodrama either.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  28. DRJ: I never claimed that either of those things was going to “cause our Republic to fall” – and you guys would’ve laughed in my face if I had, and I would’ve deserved it. For what it’s worth, I thought (think) those things were a step in the wrong direction, and an embarrassment – which is a restraint that people like Ed from SFV would do well to consider.

    Hence, melodrama. Some people just like talking like they’re a Jedi in one of the crappy new Star Wars movies.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  29. No one develops drugs or medical devices for the Rest of the World — they develop it for the US because we pay for it.

    We stop paying for it and they don’t bother developing it.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  30. Leviticus,

    I think we’ve all been guilty of hyperbole now and then, haven’t we? And sometimes it’s even justified.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  31. Myron lurvs his dirty little socialists inflicting their dirty little socialisms on the American people, and cornholing the economy and actual taxpayers for decades to come. It is a feature, not a bug.

    JD (769f99)

  32. Myron says “I was one of the few people who’d have rather won the two house seats than the two governorships, if forced to choose” and “Both the two new members voted for reform, giving two other members breathing room.”

    Do you think anybody buys your line of c**p? The California seat was a supersafe Democrat seat with an 18% registration edge. Perhaps you would want to bestow your wisdom on us as to how the seat would switch in a light turnout, off year election.

    Your postings are so tranparent it is hardly worth the effort to respond to them.

    doug (49dd6f)

  33. would someone please point out to Moron that he keeps misspelling his name?

    if he can’t get the basics like that correct, why should we even read the rest of his stuff?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  34. Myron said:

    The rest of the western world has universal care that is truly government-run and — amazingly — these countries still stand.

    I have to agree with Myron. Those countries still stand — not for much — but they do still stand.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  35. People just stop believing. There’s precious little melodrama what will be involved I don’t think.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  36. Instead of debating Pelosi, we’re debating Moron. His work here is done.

    nk (df76d4)

  37. nk, Mrs. Pelosi in her tomato red dress, is busily signing autographs for her admiring fans. All of whom will presumably choose to stick with their nifty health plans.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  38. “I think we’ve all been guilty of hyperbole now and then, haven’t we? And sometimes it’s even justified.”

    – DRJ

    OK. Fair enough.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  39. If Myron wants to discuss healthcare in other countries, I am ready. I favor the French system because they require the patient to pay the doctor first and because the reimbursement, which comes later, is not 100% of the fee. In other words, people have to pay for their healthcare and therefore they don’t misuse it. It is the best system in Europe.

    What Pelosi is passing is not related to that system. It is related to the stimulus, which has left us with 10.2% unemployment and, when the healthcare “reform” is enacted, that will go to 15%. I personally don’t think it will get through the Senate but, if it does, we will see another Depression. More likely is another catastrophic care fiasco where constituents chase Congress critters down the street threatening to string them up.

    Democrats really don’t understand economics. They do seem to understand politics which is why I don’t think it will pass the Senate. It will also cause the Democrats to lose the House and maybe the Senate.

    Mike K (addb13)

  40. Mike K., for the past year, Democrats have been headlong in pursuing policies that will doom the US economy to high unemployment and stagnation.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  41. Dana: Your starting premise is wrong, thus goes your whole argument. (The same applies to many arguments made consistently here.) This bill does not create a government-run system. For the vast majority of Americans, they will still get health care from private insurers.

    Myron (63564c)

  42. 29.Going bankrupt isn’t melodrama either.

    True. I don’t believe the politicians in D.C. are out to bankrupt the country. What’s in it for them?

    Myron (63564c)

  43. Leviticus – if I had told you one year ago that the election of BHO would lead to true fascism, would that have been hyperbole? Ownership of GM and Chrysler, and countless homes through FM & FM, countless banks and brokers, the dictating of salaries, and now the end of health insurance companies if this bill is enacted, would have made Marx and Mussolini proud.

    Did I give a timeline, Leviticus? Did I claim within 1, 5, 10, 20, years? I will stand on this: our Constitution, and therefore our Republic, falls with these developments and the make-up of our Judiciary and SCOTUS. Couple this with the degree to which China and the House of Saud owns our currency and the end is clear.

    It is a matter of when, not if. You disagree? Fine. Show me your work, big boy.

    Ed from SFV (1333b1)

  44. here’s a song that’s gonna start ringing truer and truer.

    i’m a native son, but it just may be time to leave Lost Angels in the next few years. we’ve already been talking about it, but this will certainly add a certain incentive to look more and talk less.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  45. Hence, melodrama. Some people just like talking like they’re a Jedi in one of the crappy new Star Wars movies …

    Leviticus: I agree. I think in general many people on both sides of political debates like to position everything as a war of good vs. evil, wherein they and their side are the heroes. This comes directly from Hollywood and too much televison.

    Myron (63564c)

  46. We stop paying for it and they don’t bother developing it.

    Heaven Sent: Why would we stop paying for it?

    Myron (63564c)

  47. Right up to the point where it is not cost-effective for employers to continue to provide those plans, at which point they will get dumped into the pubic plan, which will write the rules for all eligible in the exchange, but unlike the private plans, will be able to operate at practically unlimited loss, and simply tax trillions more in tax dollars whenever Congress chooses. Dems once chanted about keeping government out of healthcare decisions.

    JD (769f99)

  48. Myron,

    What’s in it for them? The same thing that was in it for the politicians who set up Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security — all programs that are going bankrupt. The value is in give-away programs that earn politicians votes now, but that don’t have to be paid for until much later.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  49. hey Ed…. i think we need to meet for a beer, maybe even add happyfeet, if s/he is interested.

    are you north or south of Sherman Way?

    red,
    the other, other Valley person

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  50. If they are not out to bankrupt our country, how would you explain the $787,000,000,000 “stimulus” and the $1,200,000,000,000 command and control “healthcare” that the House has tried to inflict on us? Deficit neutral?

    JD (1ec03c)

  51. #48: who’s going to pay for research and advances, the government? they can’t even properly operate the systems they currently have for health care, so they sure as hell aren’t going to do any development.

    regular people aren’t going to invest time and money into something they can’t make a return off of, so where is innovation going to come from?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  52. What’s in it for them?

    That has to be the most naive comment I’ve seen Myron attempt to pass off.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  53. #52: /me waves magic wand

    see? it *IS* revenue neutral…. hell, we might even turn a profit!

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  54. Again, I have to agree with Myron:

    Dana: Your starting premise is wrong, thus goes your whole argument. (The same applies to many arguments made consistently here.) This bill does not create a government-run system. For the vast majority of Americans, they will still get health care from private insurers.

    Of course, if they get their insurance from their employer, that employer may have to pay a slight additional tax.

    And insurance companies probably will tire of trying to compete with a government subsidized safety net and throw in the towel.

    But, there is a bright side. If you, as a free-thinking adult American, decide not to insure yourself, the government will do it for you — at little cost.

    Of course, you’ll be in a federal prison, but it’s all good.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  55. Doug said: Your postings are so tranparent it is hardly worth the effort to respond to them.

    Yet, you respond anyway, with incorrect observations to boot.

    Don’t think I didn’t notice how you neatly side-stepped the issue of NY-23, which went from red-to-blue. Now THAT’s transparent.

    Myron (63564c)

  56. Mike K: I also like the French system. The French also consisently rank at the top in health care.

    But you and I both know that Pelosi, nor anyone else, could pass anything like that system.

    The same people howling about this current bill would be howling about a French-style bill. “Socialism!” “Socialism!” and all that rot.

    Myron (63564c)

  57. Folks – Myron has proven, repeatedly, that he care very little, if at all, about the specifics of “healthcare” reform. He is a believer, and he wants his socialized medicine. Period. Full stop.

    JD (1ec03c)

  58. The value is in give-away programs that earn politicians votes now, but that don’t have to be paid for until much later.

    But you seem to be making the assumption that politicians, seeing a cliff approaching, will just drive right off it. I don’t know anyone on the Hill whose opionion about Social Security, to take one program, is just to let it go bankrupt. They will at least attempt adjustments.

    Myron (63564c)

  59. Myron said:

    They will at least attempt adjustments.

    Well, that’s a comfort.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  60. NY-23 went from blue to blue, courtesy of the RINOP, and the dumb shit that joined Ear Leader’s junta, instead of representing his district.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  61. Myron,

    The Social Security Trustees say expenditures will exceed assets sometime in 2017 (at page 10 of this link) but instead of making adjustments, we’re spending more money every day. The cliff isn’t approaching. We’ve already gone over it.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  62. 49.Right up to the point where it is not cost-effective for employers to continue to provide those plans, at which point they will get dumped into the pubic plan,

    JD: You’re making assumptions that basically amount to guesswork. You don’t know that this will happen.

    In the Baucus bill, the penalty for a company not carrying health care insurance was, I believe, 7 percent of payroll. What would cause employers to drop people, in that scenario, would be if the paying the penalty would be significantly lower than contributing to the cost of care.

    I asked my boss, whose company has about 350 employees, which was greater, a 7 percent penalty on payroll or what the company intended to contribute to health care next year (it happens to be the enrollment period.) He did some figuring in his head and said it would be about the same.

    Then he added that he hoped it did not come to having to drop employees from the company plan, b/c he would not prefer that option.

    So, how the combined bill is written could greatly determine whether companies try to push employees into the public plan.

    Myron (63564c)

  63. they can’t even properly operate the systems they currently have for health care,

    This is a popular talking point, but is it true, across the board? Medicare is wildly popular. I live in a military town, where many of the soldiers and dependents are on Tricare. A friend of mine had a brain tumor and had the same surgeon at Duke that Ted Kennedy had. (Except she survived, praise be.)

    Every health care system has problems, but to start from the premise that the government cannot produce any competent care is simply an exaggeration.

    Myron (63564c)

  64. #64: then your boss is as dumb as you…. if it’s revenue neutral, and i save on the overhead costs, with fewer people in HR, no time lost each year to enrollment meetings etc, and i don’t have to constantly monitor my costs and try to find the best deal, i’m just paying the 7% and be way ahead.

    besides, withh 18% unemployment already, without the drag this idiocy will cause, people will be so hard up for j*bs, i can actually cut wages on the new hires….. assuming, of course, anyone still needs what i make or do.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  65. Was it the government that provided the competent care or Duke?

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  66. The naivete in Myron’s writings always poses a dilemma. Is Myron truly that naive? Or does he think that pretending to be is more convincing?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. red: My boss is not dumb, having run a successful company for quite some time. And you’ll pardon me if I put his opinion on a slightly hire plane than yours. But before I jump to conclusions, What’s your company? How many employees?

    Myron (63564c)

  68. DRJ: Duke. The government paid for the care.

    But I don’t get your point? The government is not taking over the hospitals and all the doctors. No bill calls for that, including the one that passed the day.

    The issue in the U.S. is not that there is no quality care, but that not enough people can afford it, and the number of people who cannot afford it grows larger with rising costs.

    Myron (63564c)

  69. Medicare may be popular, but it is wildly inefficient, and when it fails people, it fails spectacularly. further more, when, not if, when they cut doctor reimbursement, and docs quit treating Medi/Medi patients, because they lose money on them, then what?

    as for Tricare, its just another insurance HMO: you get whoever won the bidding for that cycle.

    the government doesn’t do anything efficiently, so for you to say you expect them to suddenly figure out health care, when the free market itself still hasn’t fully mastered that concept, is the height of either folly, willful blindness or an out and out lie.

    pick which ever one you feel best describes your position.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  70. red: Tell me about the company you run.

    Myron (63564c)

  71. “if I had told you one year ago that the election of BHO would lead to true fascism, would that have been hyperbole?”

    – Ed from SFV

    Umm. Yes.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  72. Big business is bad. Myron is allowed to guess about outcomes, even when they fly in the face of reality, but it is hyperbole and melodrama when anyone else does it. He never has explained how this will control costs, increase access, and improve quality.

    JD (1ec03c)

  73. better question: how long has either you or your boss w*rked in health care? what, if anything, do either of you know about its inner w*rkings?

    you can’t argue my analysis of his situation, because its spot on and true. numbers don’t lie. if the cost of his plan and the government fine/fee/surcharge/tax are the same, he is ahead at the bottom line to dump you all into the system, and he’d be a fool not to.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  74. 72.Medicare may be popular, but it is wildly inefficient, and when it fails people, it fails spectacularly

    BTW, you could say that of any system, no matter how well-functioning, including, say, the U.S. Army. Is that an automatic reason to chuck the system? Medicare would not be popular if it did not work reasonably well.

    Myron (63564c)

  75. It is all about polls and “popularity” with the Left.

    How much would it have cost to simply buy an insurance policy for the 46,000,000 uninsured? It is ironic that the 46M figure is being used again, along with the lies about bankruptcies, etc …

    JD (1ec03c)

  76. Medicare would not be popular if everyone paid the same amount of the cost. for most people, it’s either free or painless.

    make everyone pay equal amounts and there would be a mad dash for the exits. typical Lefty Free Stuff.

    bread and circuses are always popular, unless you are the one paying for them.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  77. red: Just like I thought. You’re one of the seeming millions of folks who are business genuises — on the blogs only.

    Hell, all problems are very simple to solve — on the blogs.

    OK, it’s late for me on the east coast and I’m out of here.

    Feel free to call me “everything but a child of God” in my wake. I know you need this now.

    Peace.

    Myron (63564c)

  78. the US Army is NOT supposed to be cost efficient, or anything else, other than being able to kill people and break things in the wider pursuit of national objectives at the direction of National Command Authority. what does that have to do with health care?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  79. Myron says: “The issue in the U.S. is not that there is no quality care, but that not enough people can afford it, and the number of people who cannot afford it grows larger with rising costs.”

    Jeez, dude, the more you post the stupider you become.

    Here are some facts:

    “Medicare Part A, which covers hospital stays; Medicare B, which covers doctor visits; and Medicare D, the drug benefit that went into effect just 29 months ago. The infinite-horizon present discounted value of the unfunded liability for Medicare A is $34.4 trillion. The unfunded liability of Medicare B is an additional $34 trillion. The shortfall for Medicare D adds another $17.2 trillion. The total? If you wanted to cover the unfunded liability of all three programs today, you would be stuck with an $85.6 trillion bill. That is more than six times as large as the bill for Social Security.”

    http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2008/fs080528.

    The entire net worth of this country, as of 2009, was 53 trillion dollars.

    See, Myron, the adults among us look at the long term. Only 40 years after enactment, we can’t afford to pay for the current Medicare program. As the facts above show, that debt alone is nearly twice the entire household net worth in this country.

    So, no, the issue in the United States isn’t that “not enough” people can afford quality care—-the issue for the grown ups is that we can’t pay for what we have currently promised, let alone create new programs that promise to create ever more of a burden to that which exists.

    I wish I lived in fairy tale land like you, where I could get everything I want because—-well, because I want it. However, in the real world, at some point you have to pay for what you want or promise, or the whole thing collapses.

    Doug (49dd6f)

  80. Myron praises Medicare while ignoring that the Democrats have proposed cutting its funding by billions in order to dishonestly claim to pay for the rest of their program.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  81. Myron:

    But I don’t get your point? The government is not taking over the hospitals and all the doctors. No bill calls for that, including the one that passed the day.

    I think we will end up with government-run hospitals, doctors, and health care, but that’s not the question for now. The immediate question is how can the health care system accommodate millions more patients with the same standard of care that Duke provides, but at less cost? It can’t.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  82. faced with cold hard facts, the troll retreats up it’s own ass.

    i wish i could be there the day his boss announces that they are all in the government program, because the accountant pointed out the savings.

    what a moron.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  83. It is, indeed, me-agreeing-with-Myron night.

    Medicare is wildly popular.

    I was recently visiting an old folks home, and they were doing the “Ricky Bobby” big time over Medicare.

    Well, that’s not true. But, man, I wish it were.

    Unfortunately, “wildly popular” is way across the Grand Canyon from “fiscally responsible.”

    I’m thinking of about a thousand jokes right now, but I’ll spare us all.

    Ag80 (3d1543)

  84. Jerry’s no dummy

    and no, i don’t mean former, and possibly yet again, Governor Moonbeam

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  85. sharing is caring so here…

    #

    Comment by Kresh on 11/8 @ 1:04 am #

    I just realized something; this is like those dreams you had when you were a kid. You know, the dread and fear that something was waiting around the corner, or in your closet, just waiting to get you. That’s the feeling I get when I hear about what the dems and those without the stones to fight are doing; the nameless dread.

    Cthulhu is risen and is snaking it’s horrible tentacles around the capitol building, tunneling through the sewers, and sending it’s minions to infect and subdue all before them. Its brain-worm ridden slaves make necrotic-legislature larvae that will devour us all… and make us pay for the experience. Their timorous hymns echo loudly within the quickly darkening city on the hill, it’s tarnished wall crumbling from the assault within, the beacon upon high guttering and choking in the face of so much fetid air.

    And their progg slaves will coo and sigh at the nightmares being spawned in the breeding pools of Washington, delightful of the fact that the spawn will devour all, and none will be safe. America and her values will writhe for all eternity as a mere memory, consumed by the hoary old gluttonous beast, and the world will burn and cry out for forgiveness and succor, only to discover that these is none to be had. This beast has learned its lesson. This time the champion will be a worm-riddled corpse, it’s heart torn out, and it’s bones ground and crushed before the beast turns its eyes to the rest of the cowering nations. Their cries of agony will feed it’s dark heart, and it will know rapture as it strips the light from the lands, one blighted soul at a time. In time, it will rest, as there will be none left to consume. It will slumber, lulled to a pregnant dormancy by the joyous cries of those who worship within its shadow.

    Only the ashes of dreams, blood-stained streets, and the shuffling and nameless masses of the destitute will remain. It will be their Utopia, the proggs will be made proud as capitalism, and hope, is cast down in the name of their false god. Their dances of joy and victory will echo around the burning corpse of a once-great land, even as their children go quietly into the night, with only the tales and legends of what existed before to give them perspective. Their lotus-drunk parents will not hear their accusation, nor answer their questioning eyes, nor will they even notice their passing as pollution from their dark god poisons their last remaining moments.

    Perhaps in time, men will come that again cherish values, morals, hard work, and individual responsibility. But that time is far away and tonight… tonight the great and nameless dread rules the from darkness, in the once called Land of The Free, and The Home of the Brave.

    Keep your powder dry, my friends. Darkness is calling, it knows your name, and it hungers for you.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  86. Hahahaha… how ’bout that one, DRJ? I mean, if we have to toe the line somewhere, would that be it?

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  87. tell darkness i said to bring it on…. the last creature that scared me wore a Smokey the Bear hat…. Harmony Church in 1983.

    There is a story, a joke in some ways, an allegory in others, that dates way back. In it, a British Lord travels to the Frontier West, America in the 1800’s. His horse throws a shoe on the trail, so at the first little frontier town he comes to, he finds a blacksmith’s shop to have the shoe replaced. As he rides up, he sees a large, sweaty, filthy man hammering on a piece of red-hot iron. The Lord sits on his horse, waiting to be served, but the blacksmith doesn’t pay him any attention and continues to work his iron. Finally, the Lord, outraged to have been ignored this way by an obvious servant, dismounts, approaches the ‘smith, and taps the man on the shoulder with his riding crop.

    “You, man!” he barks, “Who is your Master! I wish to have a word with him!”

    The blacksmith turns, looks at the Englishman, spits a stream of tobacco juice on the point of the Lord’s boot and says,

    “That sumbitch ain’t been born

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  88. The House has passed Castro-care. Every Congressman who voted for this should be asked everyday ” why should my family pay $2000 a year to provide abortions to illegal aliens?” because that is how this will be interpreted by the courts. If you have any health insurance, you will lose because adding everyone to the health care pool without increasing the infrastructure will lower the care available to everyone except the currently uncovered and the political elite, who are of course exempt from this abomination.

    Ken Hahn (5aba52)

  89. I know it’s tiresome to keep repeating facts to Myron, but Owens said he was against the Pelosi bill when he was running. Then he voted for the bill when he got into office. Another Democrat lying his way into office, I guess. So it didn’t matter who won, DeDe or Owens. I assume Hoffman would have had the integrity to vote the way he promised he’d vote before the election, but it’s impossible to know now. A lot of Republicans who voted for Owens thinking he was the “conservative” are once again surprised.*

    DeDe was also for the bill, but in a rare moment of honesty admitted it before the election.

    And NY-23 hasn’t been “red” for a 100 years, unless it’s been 100 years since 1993.

    But that’s math and math is hard.

    * My last vote for a Democrat was for Paul Carpenter who seemed like an honorable man until he was found to be corrupt. (Paul Carpenter, Democrat) At that point I figured that there was no reason to vote against my political beliefs just because someone appeared to be an honest opponent — I’d rather have someone who votes for my views than someone who votes against them. Thanks, Paul Carpenter, for making me a solid vote for the conservative in every election. Thanks to you, I will never vote for another Democrat, because bi-partisanship was repaid with corruption.

    steve miller (dae725)

  90. Owens, the victor in NY-23 has voted for this abominiation. He’s gone back on every promise he made about this bill.

    Liberals, especially Democrats, must be made to pay with being enemployed. Start with the Politicians, the activists, the judges, and on to the academics. Put them on the unemployment line. Make them wait for their health care. Make them work for food.

    PCD (011b1c)

  91. A small but interesting episode. An elderly family member on a fixed income chose to get a standard flu shot last month for the first time at a grocery store pharmacy/clinic as the price of a visit to the doctor for one was quoted to them at about $80. It brought some of the costs into focus. A statement came in the mail as the shot was covered by Medicare – the shot itself (vaccine, syringe, ‘parts & labor’ etc.,) was $13. The administative costs were $17, totalling $30. The paperwork cost more than the medicine, yet still cost less than a visit to a physician’s office to obtain the same basic care.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  92. I for one would be glad to see health care dispensed in grocery stores. I can’t wait to see an appendectomy in Aisle 6.

    steve miller (dae725)

  93. #95 – Hmmmmm… they’ve been peddling various OTC medicines, pills, pain relievers and remedies on ‘Aisle 6,’ for decades. But an ‘appendectomy’ might be more the province of a butcher. You may get a ‘save 30%’ voucher for one some day when you buy 20 lbs. of ribs and a 2-liter Diet Pepsi.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  94. “if I had told you one year ago that the election of BHO would lead to true fascism, would that have been hyperbole?”

    – Ed from SFV

    Umm. Yes.

    Comment by Leviticus — 11/7/2009 @ 10:36 pm

    Yesterday’s hyperbole turned out to be today’s 20/20 hindsight, then.

    Matador (e01f85)

  95. In the dark of the night, The Democrap party gave America the FINGER. May the voters be as deaf to their pleas for votes in the coming elections as Democrats are to the pleas of the voters and taxpayers.

    PCD (011b1c)

  96. IMP is not well.

    JD (6286a6)

  97. This bill does not create a government-run system. For the vast majority of Americans, they will still get health care from private insurers.

    Comment by Myron

    I said that Democrats don’t understand economics and here is proof. He has no idea.

    Mike K (addb13)

  98. The Dems continue their Chavista-like revolution.

    They control the auto industry, mortgages, and now medical. TARP is used unlawfully to bail out favored industries. The Stimulus is used to give out free food and free mortgages to poor people–in return, I’m sure, for voting for whoever the ward man tells them to. Drive to EAst LA and see the huge SEIU UHW sign over their feifdom.

    They don’t care about “jobs” or health care. They care about power, and they are grabbing it, while we are distracted by the show on the House floor.

    Patricia (b05e7f)

  99. Myron said:

    For the vast majority of Americans, they will still get health care from private insurers.

    No, that’s not correct. People don’t get health care from insurance companies. They may get coverage for health care, but health care itself comes from doctors and hospitals. I’m surprised you didn’t know this.

    He also said:

    I don’t believe the politicians in D.C. are out to bankrupt the country.

    That wasn’t what was argued. Whether or not it is the aim of DC politicians to bankrupt the country, it is very likely the effect of this legislation. I’m sure you’ve heard of “unintended consequences”, have you not?

    Myron, do you always engage in such sophistry?

    Some chump (8ef001)

  100. Then he added that he hoped it did not come to having to drop employees from the company plan, b/c he would not prefer that option.

    So, how the combined bill is written could greatly determine whether companies try to push employees into the public plan.

    Comment by Myron — 11/7/2009 @ 10:22 pm

    I’ll just insert the comment that I know a person who manages a company and he’s a big fan of Obama and a stereotypical Democrat/liberal—he’s even implied to me that squishy Arnold Schwarzenegger is too Republican/conservative. But when it comes to the bottom line and paying taxes, this person is one hard-nosed cheapskate. A true limousine liberal, very much guilty of do-as-I-say-not-what-I-do politics.

    But one thing I won’t blame him or any other person running a company on doing is pushing his (or her) employees onto the option of public healthcare — and dumping private health insurance in the process — if it will mean less of a hit to a company’s bottom line.

    This is where the politics becoming interesting and contradictory: I’ve read that some union bosses (and their members) — many of whom favor the left — oppose losing the benefits of gold-plated private health insurance plans. Meanwhile, I’m sure the executives of the companies overseeing those employees (and having to deal with their union bosses) would love to throw out the cost of expensive private health insurance. IOW, to do what many liberals have accused Wal-mart, as one example, of doing to its employees.

    So in some ways the dynamics of public healthcare will make for some odd bedfellows.

    As for the phony sentiments of so many liberals, after learning that one of their big icons, Franklin D. Roosevelt — who presided over the US during its last major economic quagmire — avoided paying the increased taxes on wealthier Americans that he himself had supported and signed into law, I don’t put it pass any person of the left — then or now, be he an executive or US president, or Average Joe — to talk out of both sides of his mouth. And I won’t even mention Al Gore, who prays at the altar of environmentalism but loves his energy-hog mansion in Tennessee and jetset-schmoozing lifestyle.

    Mark (411533)

  101. Myron repeats Democrat talking points and may even believe them. I think he might even believe the spin about the House bill reducing the deficit. The fact that it reduces doctors reimbursement by 21% when doctors are fleeing Medicare now, is not something he worries about. I’m sure his boss told him that there was no way he would stop providing health insurance for Myron. After all, why make employees worried ahead of time? Myron will be very surprised when his boss announces that they have to stop providing health insurance.

    Mike K (addb13)

  102. Face it, conservatives are just fighting another losing defensive battle in a war we lost when we decided it was moral and constitutional to take wealth from people who have earned it and use it not for the common good, but for the benefit of individuals who did not earn it.

    Diffus (effb8d)

  103. Mr. Cao is a deeply useless coward I think.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  104. Suppose the RNCC did a better vetting job in NY23. Suppose they had put big money in CA10. Suppose further that they didn’t prop up Cao a year ago and picked a stronger conservative candidate. The House vote last night could have very well been 217-218. The RNC and RNCC need to do some very deep thinking about 2010.

    Mike H. (d49d76)

  105. “I shall propose a sweeping new program that will assure comprehensive health-insurance protection to millions of Americans who cannot now obtain it or afford it, with vastly improved protection against catastrophic illnesses,”
    Richard Nixon 1974

    We’re finally catching up to Tricky Dick.

    bored again (d80b5a)

  106. Mike @ 108 – No, it would not have mattered much. Pelosi let 39 or so Blue Dogs vote “their conscience” — if the R’s had picked up NY-23 and the California race, she would have had 39 votes in reserve.

    The significant factor in this defeat was the Stupak amendment, which everyone knows will not be in the final conference bill.

    The Blue Dogs will vote for the final bill which covers abortion with taxpayer funds, and they can go back to their loyal constituents saying, “Well, we voted for it in the House, but when it came back from committee it had these icky things in it, but we had already done our best, so we voted for the final conference bill. Now, here’s your tax lien and get out of the government’s house you’re living in.”

    steve miller (dae725)

  107. The rest of the western world has universal care that is truly government-run and — amazingly — these countries still stand.

    How is health care in Mexico, Jamaica, or Argentina?

    Hawaii used to have universal health care for children. Care to guess why it was abolished?

    Torturing and abusing prisoners of war and letting the world know threatens our long-term security.

    Good thing Al Qaeda terrorists are not entitled to POW protections.

    How much would it have cost to simply buy an insurance policy for the 46,000,000 uninsured?

    About 166 billion dollars a year.

    Michael Ejercito (6a1582)

  108. I’m trying to decide of CAO is a RINO or a Democrat in RINO clothes.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  109. I’ve said before that the haggling over the specifics of the bill, in the long run, is ultimately useless. Myron can spin his desire for “reform” all he wants (what he really wants is not reform, but for a third party to cover all the costs of his health care), but the fact of the matter is that a nation with debt and unfunded obligations to Social Security and Medicare parts A, B, and D totaling $140 trillion simply can’t afford to provide complete and total healthcare for an additional 10s to 100s of millions of people. The entire US government is currently operating like one big Ponzi scheme, and it’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when the system finally collapses.

    A government that can’t rein in fraud, waste, and abuse in military spending, Medicare funding, and game-show style schemes like Cash 4 Clunkers and the First-Time Home Debtor’s Credit will not be able to rein in the same in a nationalized healthcare system, no matter what Obama says.

    The left can celebrate this all they want, but the math is simply not on their side. Short of a miracle in the manufacturing sector that allows half the population to immediately transition from our service-based economy for the next 200 years, there’s no way this can be sustained over the long run.

    Another Chris (470967)

  110. I think Cao was made an offer he couldn’t refuse.

    He made a freshman’s mistake, and unfortunately he will suffer for it.

    steve miller (dae725)

  111. Dana: Your starting premise is wrong, thus goes your whole argument. (The same applies to many arguments made consistently here.) This bill does not create a government-run system. For the vast majority of Americans, they will still get health care from private insurers.
    Comment by Myron — 11/7/2009 @ 9:54 pm

    Oh My God. Good thing I missed this last evening, I wouldn’t have been able to sleep at all! Heh.

    Listen, Myron, you routinely and obtusely ignore facts, you recite the litany of bullet points from the left, etc., but what you do not seem capable of doing is seeing the bigger picture, the long term, the unintended (or rather in this, the very intended consequences) of this massive change taking place. And that seems to personify the great divide between left and right. The Dems (Nancy and friends) want this disaster rammed through asap so they can have the instant gratification of crowing to the masses, look what we’ve done for you. They are counting on people like you, Myron. And that is not a compliment.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  112. Cao was a one-termer in any case. He is angling for a job, just as McHugh took the Army Sec job because NY 23 is going to be eliminated by the 2010 census.

    Another Chris is right. There is a way to reform healthcare. I have written a lot about on my blog, as others know. This bill is not reform. I don’t know how this whole thing is going to turn out. If Obama wins a second term, I suspect we will go the Argentina route. If the public comes to its senses next year, maybe we can reverse the slide.

    Maybe it is my age but I cannot understand how people like Myron (and I’m sorry to say, a couple of my kids) do not see the coming disaster. Maybe it is the weakening of education. Nobody seems to know statistics or probabilities anymore.

    My ex-wife used to say it scared her that half the population had IQs of under 100. Well, we gave them the vote and made it worth their while to vote themselves benefits.

    Mike K (addb13)

  113. I think the real problem is that people without assets can vote, and they vote to remove assets from those that has to those that hasn’t.

    I always thought the Perpetual Motion Machine was a fantasy, but the Democrats have invented it yet again.

    And sadly, the American public is just fine with this.

    steve miller (dae725)

  114. Lindsey Graham is obnoxiously touting the Senate Bill *Dead On Arrival*.

    sybilll (f7f64a)

  115. Ministry of Truth
    Ministry of Peace
    Ministry of Plenty
    Ministry of Love
    Ministry of Health (New!)

    Official Internet Data Office (967528)

  116. Via Althouse, the NY Daily News reports that President Obama had the unmitigated gall to exploit the Ft. Hood devastation to push the health care passage last night,

    President Obama invoked the Fort Hood shootings in an emotional appeal to Democrats to pass health care reform today, contrasting the sacrifices of soldiers with political positioning.

    The impassioned pitch to the entire Democratic caucus came hours before the House vote tonight on the signature issue of Obama’s presidency, with Democratic leaders struggling to keep members from conservative districts on board.

    “He was absolutely inspiring. In a very moving way, he reminded us what sacrifice really is,” said New Jersey Rep. Rob Andrews, estimating the persuader-in-chief turned several votes.

    “Sacrifice is not casting a vote that might lose an election for you; it is the sacrifice that someone makes when they wear the uniform of this country and that unfortunately a number of people made this week,” said Andrews.

    “It made a lot of people feel a little less sorry for themselves about their political problems,” he added. “This is an emotional time for a lot of our folks politically, but this is politics and I think he correctly pointed out what’s a heck of a lot more important.”

    Dana (e9ba20)

  117. I think Cao was made an offer he couldn’t refuse.

    He made a freshman’s mistake, and unfortunately he will suffer for it.

    Comment by steve miller — 11/8/2009 @ 9:56 am

    He probably won’t be around long enough to really suffer. With his constituency, he absolutley had to find a way to vote for it (though, as a Jesuit, no doubt he is for it in his heart), Stupak gave him the cover he needed.

    Anyway, he only won because of the outrage over Jefferson. Next time, the only way he wins is if he jumps ship.

    Matador (e01f85)

  118. From the city that brought you Ray we don’t have enough (union) bus drivers Nagin. When the flood waters rose the police captain stuck out his chest and bravely asserted, “We’re not going in there. That water’s dirty. There might be gators.”

    Rep Ho Chi Minh from New Orleans, sent to Washington to replace William (refridgerator) Jefferson, fucked the whole country.

    Amazingly consistent.

    papertiger (a38535)

  119. Cao is former Seminarian.
    Maybe his christianity had something to do with it.
    That and the the Stupak abortion amendment.

    bored again (d80b5a)

  120. Everytime Myron opines on economic matters he reaffirms the correctness of his nick-name here.
    As is the case with most Progressives, he has no understanding of History or Economics, or why people change their actions in response to different stimulii.
    He says “his boss”, but fails to explain what type of “business” his boss is engaged in, whether it is in the “public” or “private” sector – with his close association with Duke, I would surmise that it is in the public sector, and so the real rules of economics don’t apply since they do not have to satisfy the public with a product that the public wishes to buy.
    When reality bites (and it will eventually) he will be shocked – the only question is whether he will shocked enough to examine the basic premises that he has operated under?
    Will he be a Liberal mugged by reality,
    or just another “FM-listening/dope-smoking/unwashed-Hippie” shuffling through life?

    AD - RtR/OS! (d951df)

  121. I don’t think hurricane Katrina was an accident.
    Call me superstitious if you want, but to me Katrina was the best evidence to date of intelligent design.

    God was trying to do America a favor.

    papertiger (a38535)

  122. My ex-wife used to say it scared her that half the population had IQs of under 100.

    Perhaps because I’m so (surprise, surprise) aware of — and interested in — the left-leaning and right-leaning biases or instincts evident in many people, and how such characteristics may or may not change as a person grows older, the last thing that concerns me about the population (or certainly the electorate) is its level of IQ.

    For example, Bill Clinton is well known for having a high IQ (ie, excellent retention skills), and billionaire Warren Buffett not only undoubtedly has that same quality but also is a wizard with money. But when it comes to understanding human nature and valuing commmon sense, the two of them may be slightly retarded. For that matter, I’m sure the current occupant of the White House is no slouch in the IQ department, but he’s mentally deficient when it comes to, again, the various facets of logic and common sense.

    These are people stricken with the major disease of “I’m liberal, therefore I am.” A major symptom of that is revealed in a poll in today’s LA Times. Even though 80% of Californians say their state is headed in the wrong direction — and I’d say well on its way to becoming a sort of Third-World-ish, Banana-Republic laughingstock — a good number of them, since they still embrace Obama and Barbara Boxer, remain wedded to the notion of “I’m liberal, therefore I am.” That is: “I’m therefore sophisticated, kind-hearted, generous, wonderful, wise, beautiful, humane, fair-minded and intelligent!”

    Mark (411533)

  123. Lindsey Graham is obnoxiously touting the Senate Bill *Dead On Arrival*.
    Comment by sybilll — 11/8/2009 @ 10:29 am

    Lindsey has a habit of saying one thing and doing something entirely different, smiling all the while. I don’t believe anything he says will happen until it does.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  124. 100% number 121.

    bio mom (f145b4)

  125. Just a couple quotes to remember:

    From young64:

    “Democracy will fail when people realize they can vote themselves money from the public purse.” Alexis de Toqueville “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin … ’nuff said… I think we are about to learn this lesson – the hard way.

    From LarryD in response to my earlier comment on the thread:

    “Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess (liberal gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, and is always followed by a dictatorship.“- quote attributed to Alexander Titler.

    And this is where we are headed.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  126. Mr. Miller #110 — I don’t disagree that the Stupak amendment was a designed Democrate ploy to give cover to the blue dogs and its passage all but assured the passage of Pelsoi’s bill, though close. My point is that the RNC and RNCC is NOT doing their job; and that is to put some real thinking into the details of elections that need to be won in order to prevent this liberal surge. They haven’t been doing their job, though it was close last night.

    The Devil is in the details of the candidates and the races. Party leaders need to be much more focused than they have been; otherwise, we will get more of the same as last night. I am encouraged that Sen. Lindsey Graham is starting to grow some brass ones…finally. That could be catching. But not unless the RNC re-examins its heretofore bad vetting and lack of real analysis can conservatives realize success in and after 2010 in both houses. And if they don’t; we’re screwed.

    Mike H. (f0c264)

  127. Comment by bored again — 11/8/2009 @ 11:11 am

    Apparently not even his seminarian/Christian/pro-life stand had anything to do with it. Cao simply made a naive deal. His freshman underpants are showing.

    Cao wrote he obtained commitment from President Obama that he would work together to address the health care issues of Louisiana, including the FMAP crisis and community disaster loan forgiveness, as well as issues related to Charity and Methodist Hospitals. “I call on all my constituents to support me as I work with him on these issues.”

    Dana (e9ba20)

  128. Comment by Dana — 11/8/2009 @ 11:54 am

    Dana, doesn’t this remind you of Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky, the PA Congresswoman back in 1993 who agreed to vote for Clinton’s first budget on the promise that Clinton would convene some sort of bipartisan commission and have a town hall meeting in her district on ways to cut spending? She was, of course, defeated for reelection in 1994. Cao is a good story and apparently an honest and decent guy, but it is almost certain that the Dems will find someone not currently in prison to run against him, and because of their advantage in voter registration in his district they will probably win. It’s a shame that he couldn’t have stood up for principle here and voted against this obamanation.

    JVW (d32e06)

  129. JVW, you’re assuming Cao can get out of the primary. I doubt he gets past that point.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  130. “Democracy will fail when people realize they can vote themselves money from the public purse.” Alexis de Toqueville “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin

    The end of our republic? Pshaw. Such melodramatic guys they were. What did they ever know, anyway?

    Ed from SFV (1333b1)

  131. Obviously, Leviticus is “the one we(they) have been waiting for”.

    AD - RtR/OS! (7df9d7)

  132. If you guys think that this health care bill marks the first time in the history of the United States that citizens have realized they can vote themselves money from the public purse, then I don’t know what to say to you, other than “quit decrying liberals’ lack of historical knowledge.” Because people have been voting themselves money out of the public purse for a long, long time. And our Republic is still standing. So, at the rist of offending Zombie Benjamin Franklin, I redouble my derogatory efforts – quit being a bunch of alarmist babies.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  133. By that reasoning, Leviticus, then why don’t we also give everyone a house, a car, furniture, and food? If there is no legitimate reason to be concerned about the limits of the public purse, why stop with health care?

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  134. Leviticus, where do you believe the line between wisdom and caution, and alarm is drawn?

    If you can look to other countries (Engaland, Canda) and see the immense problems that this doorway we are walking through, leads to, when does that become a cautionary tale to us rather than an unwarranted alarm?

    And yes, people have been feeding at the public trough for decades and it has been to our detriment. Those of us who have wished to see that severely limited have had to watch the demise. It’s almost as if you are implying because we still stand, we can’t be better. I disagree. We can be better and considering what we’ve been given in America, it’s just a shame to see us begin to model ourselves after those who are struggling to break free of the model that has entrapped them.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  135. DRJ,

    Setting aside the fact that the government already gives a lot of people those things (food stamps, public housing/housing subsidies, etc.), that’s not what I said. I didn’t say that there was no legitimate reason to be concerned about the limits of the public purse, only that delving into the public purse did not automatically herald the end of the Republic as we know it (as some people here would melodramatically have us believe).

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  136. And why not make everyone above average, while we are at it, Leviticus? All it takes is a vote, right? Or make “pi” equal to three for convenience?

    Because government control from DC always makes things more efficient, fair, and honest, right?

    You can sound all world weary and wise about this topic if you wish, but you may feel differently when you are trying to get a job. The part that I like the best is the eye roll/hand waving about “voting themselves money out of the public purse,” ho hum. If you actually have been reading history, you would know that the societies that do that sort of thing…well…produce a whole mountain of human suffering. And you surely wouldn’t want to see this nation go through a “bread and circuses” or “Weimar” phase, would you?

    The “alarmist babies” bit is ironic, after how many years of Leftist shrieking about anything with an “R” attached to it.

    But that’s different, of course. Cheney really was evil, and Biden is brilliant. GWB was stupid, and BHO is experienced. And so on.

    Most of all, you truly want freaking Pelosi making economic decisions for you? Because she is. Right now.

    Hopefully the Senate will kill this foolish bill, written by people who don’t have any world view other than their own re-election, and collection of special deals.

    Eric Blair (711059)

  137. Not even a year since the little president man took office and we’re reduced to merely hoping we remain a free people. He’s truly a sick in the head individual I think.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  138. Dana,

    I have a lot of respect for you, and a lot of conservative commenters here, but this must be one of the fundamental differences in perspective that separates us ideologically: I don’t understand how providing government health care to poor people makes us worse as a nation. I just don’t. You see countries like Canada and England (and Japan?) as failed states or something, and I don’t.

    I absolutely agree that to merely stand is irresponsible when faced with the opportunity to progress. But you and I see two totally different ways to progress.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  139. Good God. 17% unemployment before the hateful dirty socialist little president man even gets started with the confiscatory taxation he needs to enforce his third world health care scheme and it’s alarmist babies? How bad does it have to get before we can be alarmed? After the additional confiscatory taxes to fund his deranged war on carbon dioxide molecules?

    Our country is not in good hands.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  140. Please Mr. Soros we’ll be good we promise just … make him stop. Please just make the little president man stop.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  141. It hurts.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  142. Eric Blair:

    If you’d been paying any attention to recent history, you’d realize why I have to laugh a heartfelt laugh at a bunch of conservatives who suddenly see a problem with people voting money from the public purse. What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were? A bunch of rich people voted for Bush so that they could stick their hands into what had (until then) been in the public purse, and no one batted an eye.

    “Oh, but that’s just, mm, uh, the free market, you don’t even, uh, economics ‘n stuff, and history, you should learn it, umm, earned every cent of that money…” /huff&puff

    And Cheney wasn’t evil, and Biden’s an idiot, and GWB is an idiot, and so’s Barack Obama. The difference between Barack Obama and George W. Bush is that Bush was an honest idiot, and Obama’s a dishonest one.

    And maybe I will feel different about this bill when I’m trying to get a job (though I doubt it) – one way or another, I hope that I don’t allow my economic outlook to subvert my sense of basic morality.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  143. I think raising raising raising taxes during a recession is brilliant economics! The little president man went to Harvard, don’t you know.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  144. A smorgasbord of green jobs! America is prosperous and bountiful under the wise stewardship of the little president man!

    Let’s drink a Pepsi and Refresh Everything!

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  145. Leviticus:

    What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were? A bunch of rich people voted for Bush so that they could stick their hands into what had (until then) been in the public purse, and no one batted an eye.

    As you noted with Dana above, this is a philosophical difference. There’s no way I could ever describe tax cuts as government largesse to the taxpayers who earned the money.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  146. Because you assume that anyone who has money has earned it.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  147. So you want government to decide people’s value now, too?

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  148. You know who has lots and lots of money? Our dirty socialist government.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  149. Here we have the difference between left and right illustrated as well as I have ever seen it:

    Setting aside the fact that the government already gives a lot of people those things (food stamps, public housing/housing subsidies, etc.),

    Leviticus (and I am not being snarky here) where does the government get the money to “give” people things ?

    Then this:

    If you’d been paying any attention to recent history, you’d realize why I have to laugh a heartfelt laugh at a bunch of conservatives who suddenly see a problem with people voting money from the public purse. What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were? A bunch of rich people voted for Bush so that they could stick their hands into what had (until then) been in the public purse, and no one batted an eye.

    So, in your opinion, giving things to people using tax money is the same as allowing people to keep money they earned instead of taking it away and giving it to others. Is that a fair summary of your opinion ?

    Do you think that rich people stole their money ?

    How did they get it ?

    How much do I have to earn to be rich and deserving of having the government take it away ?

    Once again, I’m not trying to offend you or ridicule you. I just think this is the basis of the contrast between left and right these days.

    Thank you for making that so clear.

    Mike K (addb13)

  150. “I have to laugh a heartfelt laugh at a bunch of conservatives who suddenly see a problem with people voting money from the public purse. What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were?”

    You honestly think that fruits of individual labor belong to the state, which determines how much the individual gets to keep.

    Federal Dog (3ba7a8)

  151. I wonder what our good friend Leviticus’ opinion is of JFK for giving the rich all of that money with his tax cuts?
    And, if the wealthy are the primary constituent of the GOP (why else would the GOP advocate “tax cuts for the rich”?) why did that cohort of the electorate vote overwhelmingly for Obama, and against their interest?

    AD - RtR/OS! (7df9d7)

  152. Amazing the number of people who want “Christian” ethics when it comes to health care spending but want secular ethics when it comes to abortion.

    steve miller (b7e425)

  153. you’d realize why I have to laugh a heartfelt laugh at a bunch of conservatives who suddenly see a problem with people voting money from the public purse. What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were?

    Calling bullshit here. Lowering taxes is NOT voting people money from the public purse. It is letting people more of the money they make. Not the same thing, Leviticus, and it’s intellectually dishonest of you to make the claim.

    Because you assume that anyone who has money has earned it.

    More bullshit. Go out and prove that people don’t earn their money before you make such a claim.

    Some chump (8ef001)

  154. I don’t understand how providing government health care to poor people makes us worse as a nation

    It doesn’t make us “worse,” but the devil’s in the details. There is a sane and rational way to truly reform the health care system for everyone in this nation, but this ginormous spendulus ain’t it. In fact, it’s going in the complete opposite direction from where it’s backers allegedly claim it’s purpose is – this is nothing but a huge Ponzi scheme to transfer wealth from those who pay taxes to those who don’t.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  155. I have to ask to the idiot leftists (sorry, Leviticus, you fit in this category this time) what part of “It’s my money” do you not get? I mean, seriously, when will the statists ever understand that money taxed is taxed from people who rightfully own that money?

    And, Leviticus, don’t you dare accuse me of being heartless toward the poor. I respect you, Leviticus, as a liberal worthy of debate, but this time you have gone too far. I got both guns fully loaded and I’m out for bear now.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  156. _____________________________________

    What do you think Bush’s tax cuts were? A bunch of rich people voted for Bush so that they could stick their hands into what had (until then) been in the public purse, and no one batted an eye.

    In honor of and salute to the cluelessness and disingenuousness of liberals throughout America — and the large number of them who are limousine liberals in particular (and one doesn’t have to be rich to be guilty of that type of phoniness and hypocrisy), I hereby repost the following…

    taxhistory.org:

    Consider, for instance, the tax returns of Franklin D. Roosevelt. The returns were not released during FDR’s presidency, but had they been, they would have proved an embarrassment. Tax Analysts has recently acquired from the National Archives copies of the tax returns that Roosevelt filed between 1913 and 1937. And as a group, they reveal something striking: Roosevelt — a vicious and moralistic scourge of tax avoiders everywhere — had a penchant for minimizing his own taxes.

    Throughout his 12 years in office, Roosevelt was a frequent critic of Americans who tried to avoid taxes, even using legal means. “Mr. Justice Holmes said, ‘Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society,'” Roosevelt told Congress in 1937. “Too many individuals, however, want the civilization at a discount.”

    Roosevelt reserved special scorn for the “clever little schemes” devised by tax lawyers, insisting that they posed a threat to the tax system, and even to society as a whole. “In this immediate problem the decency of American morals is involved,” he declared. “The example of successful tax dodging by a minority of very rich individuals breeds efforts by other people to dodge other laws as well as tax laws.”

    Roosevelt’s 1937 message on tax avoidance decried a variety of popular techniques, including the use of overseas and domestic personal holding companies, the creation of multiple trusts for the support of family members, and the incorporation of money-losing country estates and personal yachts.

    Such bombast carried the day in 1937, when FDR pushed a tax bill through Congress that tried to eliminate some of the more glaring loopholes. Other high points in Rooseveltian tax policy — including the Wealth Tax Act of 1935, the undistributed profits tax of 1936, and the tax bill veto of 1944 — were also rooted in a conviction that rich Americans were gaming the tax laws.

    But Roosevelt’s tax returns reveal him to be something of a hypocrite. At various points, both before and after his election to the White House, he indulged in the sort of tax avoidance that he claimed to find so objectionable.

    For instance, Roosevelt repeatedly urged Congress to end the tax-free treatment of interest on state and municipal bonds. The special treatment accorded to those financial instruments, he told Congress in April 1938, “has created a vast reservoir of tax-exempt securities in the hands of the very persons who equitably should not be relieved of taxes on their income.” Congress should act to end the injustice, he declared.

    Yet just a month before, FDR had filed a tax return indicating that he owned some $17,000 in tax-free bonds. Defenders of the president might insist that he was doing nothing wrong; after all, the tax-free status of those bonds was a deliberate and long-standing element of the tax law. But Roosevelt himself dismissed those legalistic arguments.

    An even more striking example of Roosevelt’s tax avoidance involved a technique that only a president could love. During his first term in office, FDR repeatedly claimed that he was exempt from the high tax rates on personal income that Congress had enacted — and Roosevelt had approved — in the revenue acts of 1934 and 1935.

    “It is enlightening,” wrote historian Mark Leff in his study of New Deal taxation, The Limits of Symbolic Reform, “to attempt to square Roosevelt’s distaste for tax avoidance with his own tax forms.” To be blunt, it can’t be done.

    _____________________________________

    Mark (411533)

  157. I don’t want to attack Leviticus because he seems sincere in his opinions. He’s not a fabulist like DCSCA or some of the other trolls.

    Because you assume that anyone who has money has earned it.

    Comment by Leviticus —

    I think that is an honest statement. One of my daughters, who is a lefty now, once asked me, “Dad, how did you get your money ?” She was about 12 at the time so I didn’t take it as a political statement. She didn’t know.

    Some day, she will find out there isn’t as much as she once thought but she is also now married and wants kids so I am not ready to give up on her as a life-long lefty.

    Maybe Leviticus just doesn’t know. God knows I have worked for everything I have ever had and began working at the age of 10. I’m still working at 71. Taxes have influenced my behavior economically, sometimes to my own detriment. I was in favor of the Reagan tax reform in 1986 even though it cost me $100,000. I now think that was not worth it. Maybe Leviticus will eventually decide some of his ideas now were in error.

    I would cut him some slack but I do wonder at his concept of property.

    Mike K (addb13)

  158. Mark, FDR was largely supported by his mother who kept him on a tight leash. For example, after his affair with Lucy Mercer, he and Eleanor discussed divorce, rare in 1918. His mother told him she would cut him off and oblige him to live on his earnings as a lawyer if he divorced Eleanor.

    On the other hand, Lucy was with him when he died.

    Mike K (addb13)

  159. If WWII had not rescued FDR, he would have been marked down as the worst President of the 20th Century. He massively expanded government, massively pumped tax dollars to people who didn’t earn it, and massively extended the Great Depression to lengths the rest of the world did not see in their Depressions (no “Great” attached). Since WWII rescued FDR and his absolutely destructive policies, the 20th’s worst President falls to:

    My peanut has a first name it’s J-I-M-M-Y
    My peanut has a second name it’s C-A-R-T-E-R
    Oh I hate to see him every day
    and if you ask me why I’ll say
    ‘cause Jimmy Carter has a way
    of messing up the U-S-A!!!

    (And Adj Dana, there’s the missing line.)

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  160. I don’t understand how providing government health care to poor people makes us worse as a nation

    Because we already provide government health care to poor people. It’s called Medicaid. We don’t need government health care for the middle class and the rich, too.

    Official Internet Data Office (967528)

  161. I don’t understand how providing government health care to poor people makes us worse as a nation.

    For starters, this is a false construct, because while the implication is that health care is being provided to the poor with the bill, that’s not how the Democrats and Obama have been promoting this idea–it’s been promoted as an “option” that will “provide competition.” The poor already recieve government funded health care in the form of Medicaid and programs like SCHIP, so your statement is moot. Secondly, providing health care is not something that can be defined by Rousseauian notions of a “good society”–it boils down to whether that nation can afford to pay for it or not.

    I’ve brought up the financial obligations of this bill plus all our other entitlement programs to liberals time and time again. Not once have they been able to explain how a country that’s on the hook for $140 trillion in debt and unfunded obligations already, can provide complete and total healthcare for an additional tens of millions of people, plus these other programs, in perpetuity.

    WE ARE FLAT BROKE…and the current government policy is to play “extend and pretend” with the nation’s finances, or pass short-term, feel-good measures like Cash 4 Clunkers or the First Time Home Buyer’s credit, instead of confronting the very real financial crisis this country is in. All these programs haven’t brought down the government, but we’ve also never had this level of debt to contend with either.

    How on earth is the government supposed to pay for all these entitlement programs in perpetuity, given the level of our obligations and the overall weakness of our economy, which has relied on bubbles created by the Fed for the last 35 years? That’s why I pointed out in my previous post that short of a miracle that instantly transitions half the nation’s economy from the service-based one that it is, there’s no way to keep this going. It’s a Ponzi government that’s going to eventually blow up in our faces, and when it happens we’ll either end up as economic vassals to some other country or the whole damn system will end up falling apart.

    Another Chris (470967)

  162. Leviticus,

    In my experience, your view of politics and government is typical of many western/central New Mexicans. New Mexico is heavily dependent on the federal government for revenue and employment — the federal government returns $2 for every $1 in tax revenue paid by New Mexicans, higher than any other state.

    As you probably know, your economy is very different from other states. However, changing how the rest of the American economy works to how New Mexico works will be about as successful as New Mexico’s economy is now, which is not very good.

    It has a real impact on the economy and people’s lives when you take from the rich to give to the poor but, unlike the fairy tales we were told as children, history says your Robin Hood policy won’t have a happy ending.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  163. And Robin Hood did not rob from the rich to give to the poor. He robbed from the government to give back to the people the government stole it from.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  164. How do Ponzi schemes work? They pull in suckers to finance the suckers they already pulled in. Everything runs fine until there are not enough suckers being pulled in. Then it collapses dramatically.

    We got someone in jail for just such a Ponzi scheme of dramatic fashion. But our government has other, much more massive and somehow legal Ponzi schemes. SocSec is one that doesn’t even try to hide the fact. It is going belly-up and I expect I will not have SocSec once I hit retirement age. Had those idiot leftists not also legalized the murder of over 30 million US citizens since the 1970s, there would be 40 million or more tax-payers right now feeding that Ponzi scheme and delaying its catastrophic collapse. Medicare and Medicaid are other Ponzi schemes, but the fed hides the Ponzi nature of them.

    So, Leviticus, your bovine byproduct doesn’t even come anywhere near the smell test. It stinks to high heaven.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  165. I think we can answer quite honestly that Leviticus assumes that anyone who has money did not earn it.

    North Dallas Thirty (886cfc)

  166. Maybe Leviticus just doesn’t know.

    That’s probably a fair assessment – what’s the old adage, a conservative is someone who just became a property owner. Not as relevant in these ridiculous times, but the sentiment is still apt.

    Oh, yeah – the other one was a conservative is a liberal mugged by reality.

    Dmac (a964d5)

  167. North Dallas Thirty:

    “…anyone who has money did not earn it…”

    That one may strike our highly moralistic friend a little close to home.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  168. That one may strike our highly moralistic friend a little close to home.

    Doubtless it does — and really, in my opinion, that’s the underlying issue that creates liberalism. You have people like Pelosi, whose wealth came from corrupt politics and shady real estate deals, the Kennedys and their rum-running, John Kerry and his gold-digging, Obama and his “unusual” deals, and it really becomes a matter of wealthy liberals projecting their OWN behavior onto others.

    What makes it particularly pathetic, though, is that they try to assuage their guilt by giving away OTHER peoples’ money. We are all expected to pay for Pelosi’s problems with her gangster father and crooked husband so that she can have her conscience cleared without having to give up her vineyards, her palatial home, etc.

    North Dallas Thirty (886cfc)

  169. Eric & ND30,

    Yes, the standard is that politicians who have money not only didn’t earn it, but most likely stole it.

    If there’s any group of people in this world who should have their earnings confiscated, it’s politicians.

    Leviticus is confused about this subject. On one hand he admits that Obama is stupid and dishonest, and on the other he wants to give that same dishonest idiot more control over our economy.

    I’ve yet to meet anyone on the left who can include themselves in their always very generalized economic ideas. When it comes to details, especially personal ones, they always run and hide.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  170. I can understand why our friends on the left assume that anyone’s wealth is entirely unearned. I have always viewed Ted Kennedy’s complicated history with wealth as providing insight. On some level, he probably understood that his father made his fortune through nefarious means so Teddy likely came to believe that everyone who gets rich does so in an unsavory manner. They idea that someone can work hard in a completely legal industry and be handsomely rewarded was alien to his way of thinking.

    JVW (d32e06)

  171. My peanut has a first name it’s J-I-M-M-Y
    My peanut has a second name it’s C-A-R-T-E-R
    Oh I hate to see him every day
    and if you ask me why I’ll say
    ‘cause Jimmy Carter has a way
    of messing up the U-S-A!!!

    I had forgotten about that one.

    Gina (af585e)

  172. OK. Back. Dinner with the family.

    Can’t say I didn’t expect the last couple of comments I left to raise peoples’ ire… but it’s worth it once in a while. I’ll try to answer all the questions you folks have posed, but bear with me if I miss an honest one or two (and ignore some of the stupider ad hominems):

    First things first – and it seems to me that we (i.e. you guys) have lost sight of it in this country – the government has the right to tax its citizens. Article I, Section 8, first line: “The Congress shall have the Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States”. So quit couching taxation as unjustifed banditry, ‘cuz it’s not (John Hitchcock, #159). And (hence) to all those who ask so incredulously whether or not I “honestly think that fruits of individual labor belong to the state, which determines how much the individual gets to keep” (Mike K #153, Federal Dog #154), the short answer is “no, of course not”, but the long answer (i.e. the operational answer) is “yes”, because the legitimate power of taxation effectively makes it so. The important thing is that in a democracy, the people can sanction their government if it overexercises its power to tax them. So if you don’t like the taxes Congress is placing on you, vote them out – but don’t act like Congress has no right to tax you in the first place.

    Mike K: I think that most rich people earned their money, some inherited it, and a few obtained it through dishonest means. My response to DRJ in #150 was more argumentative than anything else, and for that I apologize (to her first, and anyone else who took umbrage second). But I’m sure either one of us could come up with any number of examples of conservatives voting for representatives who were going to “stick their hands in the public purse” and return that money to their voters (which was my original point) – the oil and gas towns in eastern New Mexico who (until a year ago) sent Steve Pearce to DC to pick up subsidy money spring to mind, just as an example; so do agricultural folks all over the state.

    And, as to one of your later posts, I may indeed later decide that some of my current ideas were in error – but for now, based on what I know of democratic theory, and based on my upbringing, and in keeping with my faith in God and my beliefs as to what He would have me do in this situation, I must respectfully disagree with you in full sincerity.

    John Hitchcock: I didn’t accuse you of anything. My general points at the beginning of this post should answer your other question – or are you going to couch Article I, Section 8 as “bovine byproduct” too? You are a Christian, if I’m not mistaken: what did Jesus tell the Pharisees when they asked him if they ought to pay taxes to Caesar?

    North Dallas Thirty: “I think we can answer quite honestly that Leviticus assumes that anyone who has money did not earn it.”

    You can answer that dishonestly, but saying it’s so don’t make it so. See what I’ve said above for clarification.

    DRJ: I’m not really basing my support for healthcare reform on precedent set by the state of NM – though that’s interesting that my position is one typical of NM folks. I certainly understand that much of our state’s revenue comes from the Federal government, but it’s such a small state that the two national labs and the Air Force bases can skew that number fairly easily. If anything, NM is anomalous: in my opinion, it would be wrong to draw lessons from this state as to the effects of certain policies on the country as a whole.

    Apogee: it’s hard for me to see how my support of health care reform can be equated with a desire to grant Barack Obama more power of any sort, and I challenge you to trace out the reasoning by which you’ve attributed such a sentiment to me (particularly in light of my oft-stated low opinion of the man).

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  173. Leviticus – See my recent comment in your Jury post for a more in-depth treatment of the health care fiasco.

    My reasoning is such:

    Rather than go for any sort of reform, Obama, his administration, and the Democratic Party are choosing instead to implement a package that is so overwritten and simultaneously vague enough to allow them to dictate the operational rules for the health care industry. How any person who describes themselves as sane can fail to see that as an accumulation of increased power is beyond me.

    If you do not support the Obama/Pelosi health care bill, then I apologize. If you do support its passage, however, then in my opinion (as you are not stupid) you are actively supporting increasing Obama’s (and the Democrats) power at the expense of any real reform.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  174. Leviticus, Article 1 Section 8 says keep your filthy hands off my money. It does not say redistribute my money to someone else. And any idiot (judges included) who push that asterisk-brained idea deserves absolutely zero respect from me, period.

    SocSec is unconstitutional and bankrupt. Welfare is unconstitutional and bankrupt. Medicare is unconstitutional and bankrupt. Medicaid is unconstitutional and bankrupt. SCHIP is unconstitutional. ObamaCare is unconstitutional and will bankrupt whatever isn’t already bankrupt.

    Read Davey Crockett.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  175. Listen, Leviticus:

    “…stupider ad hominems…”

    If you don’t like ’em, don’t deal ’em. It’s not tensor calculus. The minute you claim to be moral, with a sniffingly superior tone, you are setting yourself up as “better” than those with whom you disagree.

    I understand you far better than you understand me. Remember what I do for a living. And dial back the superiority that you claim to dislike in others.

    Eric Blair (711059)

  176. What should people give to Caesar? They should give to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. My money does not belong to Caesar, so keep your filthy hands off it.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  177. And my money definitely does not belong to you or your next-door neighbor, so quit robbing from me and giving your neighbor a share of the booty.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  178. Leviticus – The ratification of the 16th Amendment in 1913 gave Congress the power to levy an income tax not apportioned by head or census, so you might want to rethink your interpretation of the constitution. The clause you cited was obviously not intended for this type of activity, hence the requirement of an amendment.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  179. Apogee: I saw (and responded to) your comment on the Jury post.

    “Rather than go for any sort of reform, Obama, his administration, and the Democratic Party are choosing instead to implement a package that is so overwritten and simultaneously vague enough to allow them to dictate the operational rules for the health care industry.”

    – Apogee

    I more or less agree; that is, I absolutely agree that they’ve written a deliberately overwritten and simultaneously vague bill, and have a sneaking suspicion that they’ve done so for the reasons you detail (though I’m less certain as to the latter point).

    I’ve always couched my support for health care reform in general terms (because I’m not wedded to a particular sort of reform – I’ve had discussions with you and Dmac about this), and I don’t like or trust what Congress has put forward in this bill. I’ve said before that I think a single-payer system with modest co-pays is ideal, and I’ll elaborate my reasoning on that one if you want me to, but the short answer to your question is that no, I’m not happy about this bill, and I don’t really support it. I think it’s going to be of minimal effect in providing coverage to those who really need it, and that it’s true intent is to increase patronage and increase the power of Congress as an institution (which is the last thing we need, given the general miscreance of that particular body).

    If I’m wrong, and it is truly effective in improving the situation of that group, then I’ll be pleasantly surprised, and I’ll call it good. But in the meantime, my distrust for Congress is too great to support this bill, given all the behind-closed-doors bullshit that went into crafting it.

    And it’s an interesting thing: up until you asked me the question explicitly, I kinda assumed that I did support the thing. But when you did, and I thought about it for a second, I realized I didn’t, given my general mistrust of Congress and the fruits of their labor. Again, though: I’ve always couched my support for healthcare reform in general terms, undwed to this particular bill or party or anything of the sort – and that general support for the notion remains unchanged.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  180. Since there are people alive today who were too old to be drafted to fight WWII, I want to know what “a long, long time” is. 12 years? 30 years? 50 years? what?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  181. “Leviticus, Article 1 Section 8 says keep your filthy hands off my money.”

    – John Hitchcock

    It absolutely does not say that, and I dare you to come up with any reasonable interpretation of the text that says it does.

    Eric Blair:

    I claimed no monopoly on morality. I said that I hoped I would’t subvert morality to economics as I got older. I understand that most people here place a higher value on morality than economics, and that we merely vary in our thoughts as to how to produce optimal moral outcomes. But honestly, there was an edge of accusation in my statement – in response to a tired condescension that says that my ideological views are but the folly of youth and immaturity, and that I will grow out of them as a matter of course. For that edge of accusation, I apologize. I allowed it in the heat of the moment, and it was wrong of me to do so.

    That said:

    It’s a funny thing – the first version of my first response to you included a line that read something like this: “I’m not one of your dumb-ass college freshman spouting off bullshit about topics to which he’s devoted no mental energy whatsoever”… but I deleted it. I figured it was unfair of me to jump to something like that, insofar as you hadn’t pulled the I’m-A-Professor-I-Know-How-You-Think card; that I was ascribing to you an arrogance which you hadn’t demonstrated. But in light of

    “I understand you far better than you understand me. Remember what I do for a living.”

    Fuck. That. Because I’m not one of your dumb-ass, fashionably liberal college students, toeing the party line because he thinks it will earn him brownie points with the cute hippy girl down the hall. This shit is serious to me, and if you haven’t realized that by now then I don’t know what to do for you.

    You may think that understanding between students and professors is a one way street, but it most certainly is not: we observe you just like you observe us, or at least I do – maybe your students are a more oblivious bunch. For what it’s worth, I think I have a pretty good read on self-absorbed academics (a category in which I do not include you – I’m thinking more along the lines of a bullshit Media Arts class the University is forcing me to take – but you get the gist nonetheless).

    One way or another, you don’t get to claim that you understand me because you deal with college students on a regular basis, just like I don’t get to claim that I understand you because I deal with college professors on a regular basis. That’s not how it works.

    And for the record (in response to this notion that my liberalism is something I’ll just outgrow): my dad is a small business owner. He left a government job in Los Alamos to start his own company, and is only recently beginning to see the benefits of many years of hard work. And he’s liberal as all get out. He knows that there will be a number of new taxes that will hurt him financially in the years to come, and he supports them anyway, because he believes that the money will go to help people who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves. And he places a higher value on that than retiring a few years ahead of schedule. (This time, I mean no veiled accusation – this anecdote is the product of actual discussions I’ve had with my dad on this matter).

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  182. Defenders of tax cuts for the wealthy:

    What Wall Street did with our money amounts to theft. Even characters like Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck see that.

    We taxpayers finance their failures. Their profits are their own. And it’s been that way for many years. Remember the S&L crisis? Who paid for that?

    So, no, I don’t support giving them tax cuts any more than I supported handing them the bailout money with no strings attached.

    Myron (63564c)

  183. U.S.Constitution…
    Article I, Section 8, (1):
    To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

    Funny how that subordinate clause seems to be forgotten, except when it was pointed out several times by SCOTUS, resulting in the 16th Amendment.

    Though Congress has a very expansive idea re its’ powers, the Constitution is actually a restriction upon the powers of the Federal Government, reserving those unenumerated powers to the States, and/or the People – and there are a lot of unenumerated powers.

    Re the Liberalism of Pater Leviticus:
    His thoughts on helping the less fortunate are admirable, but individual charity is always more effective than that which the government attempts, as any reasonable reading of history (particularly of the late-20th century) will document. Though he may not have one, his mind-set is typified by the term Limousine Liberal, and was famously remarked upon by Margaret Thatcher’s observation that Socialism/Liberalism works right up to the point that you run out of OPM!

    AD - RtR/OS! (7df9d7)

  184. BTW, good post, Leviticus.

    Myron (63564c)

  185. So, no, I don’t support giving them tax cuts any more than I supported handing them the bailout money with no strings attached.

    Comment by Myron — 11/8/2009 @ 11:45 pm

    So, why did you allow them (Congress) to hand out money without strings?

    AD - RtR/OS! (7df9d7)

  186. AD: The same reason you are allowing the health care bill to move forward. It was not in my hands.

    I wanted strings and I wanted very strict regulation. We got little of the former and none of the latter.

    BTW, below is a concise history of U.S. bailouts, for all you folks who believe only the poor and middle class receive some assistance from the government.

    http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts

    It might surprise some people here to learn that poor people have probably had less a devastating effect on the American economy than the captains of industry. But I think our view of that is one of those fundamental liberal vs. conservative differences …

    Myron (63564c)

  187. Oh, and AD, I should add that most liberals to the left of me heartily opposed TARP. It was one of those rare cases where it received both support and fire from both sides of the aisle.

    Myron (63564c)

  188. BTW, I do consider Wall Street a greater existential threat to the economy than entitlements. They’re like the next Katrina waiting to happen.

    Because post-TARP, I see we are headed toward a catastrophe down the road.

    First, no new regulations are in place to prevent the same kind of gambling and bad investments that led to the debacle of Sept. 08.

    Second, the absence of regulation and the big boost of the bailout money (reminder: OUR money) have already led us right back into a suite of companies that are “too big to fail.”

    Third, these bad practices will land us into another jam, be it five, ten, 15 or 20 years from now. The crises occur with regularity. Funny how that works.

    But this time, Americans — who will be more left-leaning down the road (sorry, all current demographics make it inevitable) — will be less willing to bail out the bastards.

    Except their dire warnings of the economy crashing will prove true, b/c in some respects, they truly are too big to fail.

    Myron (63564c)

  189. What Wall Street did with our money amounts to theft.

    It’s quite fitting and not too surprising that one of the ultimate symbols associated with Wall Street of the 2000s, con-artist Bernard Madoff, was a big contributor to the Democrat Party and apparently a big liberal.

    Mark (411533)

  190. But this time, Americans — who will be more left-leaning down the road (sorry, all current demographics make it inevitable) — will be less willing to bail out the bastards.

    Oh, really?

    Village Voice, August 2008:

    Andrew Cuomo [ie, a liberal Democrat], the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country’s current crisis. He took actions that — in combination with many other factors — helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments. He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded “kickbacks” to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans. Three to four million families are now facing foreclosure, and Cuomo is one of the reasons why.

    What he did is important — not just because of what it tells us about how we got in this hole, but because of what it says about New York’s attorney general, who has been trying for months to don a white hat in the subprime scandal, pursuing cases against banks, appraisers, brokers, rating agencies, and multitrillion-dollar, quasi-public Fannie and Freddie.

    Mark (411533)

  191. “…Fuck. That. Because I’m not one of your dumb-ass, fashionably liberal college students, toeing the party line because he thinks it will earn him brownie points with the cute hippy girl down the hall. This shit is serious to me, and if you haven’t realized that by now then I don’t know what to do for you…”

    Hmmm. Yup. You are completely different from those students. Absolutely. Your personal style really drives that point home.

    Oh, come on. You have already said you have never really held a job. Your comments about your “moralism” said it all.

    Best of luck to you. But I meant what I said. Ask your father if he would be willing to give up another 20% of his company to Pelosi and her pals. Or to people he doesn’t know, because they can’t make their own house payments. And so on.

    Statism is all about taking money from people and distributing to others because The State knows better than you do.

    It’s easy to demand other people give up things for causes you believe in. It’s tougher by far to give those things up yourself—particularly if you have earned those things by your own hard work. But doing so is a far, far better measure of morality than the other approach.

    Asking other people to sacrifice for you is the definition of the college student, frankly. I hope you are volunteering a lot of your time to charitable work. If you are, I am more tolerant of your unfortunate “moralism” comment. Otherwise, there is indeed the stink of the dorm room toke session about it.

    Eric Blair (711059)

  192. Mark: Bernie Madoff is in jail where he belongs. But he was one of the best things that happened for the rest of the Wall Street types, b/c he is a distraction. It is not the illegal activity that is the main problem: It’s the legalized, high-risk gambling.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  193. Oh, really?

    Yes, really.

    The Republicans have punted on the Hispanic vote. Very stupid. No. 1 minority. Thank you for that, by the way. Needless to say the black vote is gone forever. And with what you’re preparing to do to Cao, who voted with his (mostly black) district, you may get shaky with the Asians, too. The relationship with the Muslims speaks for itself.

    America is getting browner; less religious; more “single” with people marrying later; more working women and women-supported households; more accepting of gay relationships (though not yet ready to approve gay marriages); and frankly, poorer at the bottom end.

    Show me the demos that suggest a GOP takeover.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  194. At the gym, I listened to CSPAN’s coverage of the debate. It made me ill to watch Obey, Rangle, and the rest of the mobsters outright lie about health care in America. Of course, the sickest performance was by Cantor, the minority whip. He wants Democrat lite…what a jerk!! Then, I woke up to find Cao has become the Alen Specter. He’s a dweeb and another reason not to give the Republican party any money. The tent isn’t big enough for such an ass. Finally, if the spectacle of fiscal disaster doesn’t cause multiple RATS to loose there positions then there is no hope for the Republic, especially the Blue Dog RATS who support Pelosi, Murtha, Frank, Obey, Rangle and the rest of the corruptocrats.

    jkstewart2 (350c6a)

  195. Dontcha just love how Myron presumes to speak on behalf of so many different minorities? He is single-handedly trying to become the most pompous arrogant moonbat to comment here.

    JD (5e5cad)

  196. He knows that there will be a number of new taxes that will hurt him financially in the years to come, and he supports them anyway, because he believes that the money will go to help people who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves.

    Of course he knows they’ll be left to fend for themselves — because liberals like himself will not raise a finger or spend a dollar to help them now.

    That’s what makes the moralizing of liberals like Leviticus and his father so hilarious. They whine and complain about “the poor”, but demand new taxes on other people to help said poor. They have no intention of paying these taxes, as we see from the examples of Rangel, Geithner, Solis, Sebelius, Soros, Buffett, Kennedy, and others; they instead are going to keep their money and force others to pay for their social work for them.

    North Dallas Thirty (416e07)

  197. Myron complains about a lack of “regulation” of Wall Street – showing his ignorance of the fact that government policies were at the core of the financial system meltdown. Policies which Democrats are busy expanding even now. Note that Fannie Mae just announced more billions in losses in carrying out Democrats’ demented mortgage policies.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  198. …and, he blithely skips over all of the micro-managing coming out of the WH Czar Dept that is being imposed upon America’s business community, and eventually, upon individuals like him (but of course, it won’t affect him because he’s different, better, more enlightened, blah…blah…blah…it is only meant to change the behavior of those who are destroying the United Socialist Amerika).

    AD - RtR/OS! (7c0a4b)

  199. America is getting browner

    Which, of course, in the mind of Myron, translates to more welfare, more dependency on government, and more support for income redistribution from those evil whites, all of which his Obama Party endorses and supports.

    Myron honestly believes that skin color is the determining factor in peoples’ votes. He believes that people with black or brown skin will not oppose immense taxation, flagrantly anti-business policy, and redistribution of wealth from those who work to those who don’t.

    This, more than anything, should demonstrate the fundamental racism that lies at the core of the Obama Party. Instead of looking at how people pay taxes, how they work, and how they respond to government intrusion and inefficiency, Myron flatly states that the Obama Party will remain in power solely because “America is getting browner”.

    North Dallas Thirty (416e07)

  200. Another example of the racist Myron.

    And with what you’re preparing to do to Cao, who voted with his (mostly black) district, you may get shaky with the Asians, too.

    Myron assumes that, if you criticize a person of a certain minority status, regardless of what that person did, that everyone in that minority will cease to support you.

    That is absolutely ludicrous. Do you really believe that no Asian people anywhere disagree with what Cao did? Better yet, do you honestly think that, even if they do disagree with what Cao did, that they’ll side with him because he’s Asian?

    This is the lunacy and racism, again, that is at the core of the Obama Party. Myron and his fellow Obama supporters are absolutely incapable of looking past skin color. They assume that everyone of a given skin color or minority status thinks and acts the same way, and that members of a minority will automatically side with the person being criticized.

    North Dallas Thirty (416e07)

  201. The fundamental flaw in most liberals is their lack of understanding of the root cause of a problem. [Of course, often, for big problems, several factors work in concert to bring about the problem.]

    The free market has never been a factor in causing our current crises. The free market works under the constraints placed on it at any given time. When the desire for a resource increases, the price increases. When the availability of a resource increases, the price falls. Many market conditions can lead to increased or decreased desire for an item. Many market conditions can lead to fewer or more items to be available.

    Government’s place constraints on the free market. Those in government may believe they are acting for the greater good, but our Federal Government has repeatedly created bad constraints. These have made artificial changes to the markets; falsely increasing or decreasing the market price on an item. Additionally, the perceived value of an item is changed; especially for those who may receive the item at a substantially lower price than previously existed.

    Our Federal system is well-tuned to create new laws and regulations. It is not well-adapted to repeal and rewrite laws to simplify and/or correct past errors.

    We cannot create new laws to fix our current problems. We need to reduce the Federal Government’s involvement in the marketplace. The Government is and has been the problem, not the solution.

    Lastly, Myron, I know that it looks like greed and capitalism caused the housing crises (and other problems). But you are not looking deeply enough. Banks were forced, coerced, and demonized into making bad loans. The market corrected for this with large insurance derivatives and other band aids to overcome the imbalance placed on it. The government continued to fuel the bad behavior thru coercion; and encouraging it thru guarantees and bailouts.

    Note I have not mentioned one party or another. They are both equally to blame.

    The health care debate is just the next step in the long road of Government interference and increased problems.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  202. “Asking other people to sacrifice for you is the definition of the college student, frankly. I hope you are volunteering a lot of your time to charitable work. If you are, I am more tolerant of your unfortunate “moralism” comment. Otherwise, there is indeed the stink of the dorm room toke session about it.”

    – Eric Blair

    I bet an attitude of automatic and uniform condescension goes a long way towards earning the respect of your students – you should write a book or something: “How to Convince Your College Freshman That You’re Smarter Than Them By Stating It Repeatedly”, or something along those lines… Maybe “Browbeating Young People For Dummies”.

    You don’t know anything about me, no matter how many times you tell yourself that you are the font of wisdom by mere force of age. Try to see beyond your own projection for two seconds and realize that I don’t support this current bill, that (even generally speaking) I’ve asked no one to sacrifice for me, and that it’s a strange sort of paranoia that assumes that anyone who disagrees with a conservative position is out to steal the money of the only people who ever earned it.

    Finally: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (and you can give a disbelieving, self-satisfied chuckle if you want, I don’t give a shit): I’m not going to give you the play-by-play on my charitable givings like a damn Pharisee. If the only reason I was giving money to charities or my church or whatever was so that I could go brag about it on blogs with people that don’t respect me in the first place, I’d be missing the point in a spectacular fashion.

    [Released from filter. — DRJ]

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  203. America is getting browner.

    And I am helping that happen. My daughter is pregnant and her son will not be white. And she took me at my word for part of the cause of that.

    Of course, Moron is showing a fine example of racism. Want more examples of racism? Try scanning through my articles here.

    Want more information on my daughter? Try scanning through my articles here and link-surfing.

    Like blu and Pooter, Moron has been pantsed by a 21-year-old woman. And, like Pooter, Moron got pre-emptively pantsed in my open letter to BHO (Dear President Obama) over on CSPT.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  204. If the only reason I was giving money to charities or my church or whatever was so that I could go brag about it on blogs with people that don’t respect me in the first place, I’d be missing the point in a spectacular fashion.

    Actually, you already brag about how “moral” you are because you support taking money from those who you have decided are not worthy and didn’t earn it to redistribute to those who you arbitrarily have decided “deserve it”.

    Since you insist that others be forced to pay for your “poor”, you should at least be willing to talk about how much you ante up yourself for those selfsame “poor”.

    Or are you like your father — all about supporting the poor, except when you have to put your own hand into your pocket? Why is it that your father doesn’t cough up the 20% he claims taxes are going to be raised now and hand it out to the poor? Doesn’t he think they need it at this point?

    I bet an attitude of automatic and uniform condescension goes a long way towards earning the respect of your students – you should write a book or something: “How to Convince Your College Freshman That You’re Smarter Than Them By Stating It Repeatedly”, or something along those lines… Maybe “Browbeating Young People For Dummies”.

    Quick lesson: the odds are that a college professor is going to know more about the subject that he or she is teaching than the freshmen who are taking the class. If not, then why are they taking it?

    Unless, of course, you think the point of college is to reinforce what you already think you know. In your case, I think it quite obvious that any knowledge that your professors have is wasted on you, inasmuch as your point seems to be to have the world reaffirm how smart you are.

    North Dallas Thirty (886cfc)

  205. Your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired, dude…

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  206. Ah yes, I see; the problem is of course not with what you say, but with me.

    A bit of advice, Leviticus; you will make the leap into adulthood when you realize two things:

    1) that 2 + 2 = 4, regardless of how convenient it might be for you at the time to make it equal 5, 12, or Mary Hartman;

    2) that people who point out it is 4 when you need it to be 5, 12, or Mary Hartman do not have problems with their reading comprehension — only with your grip on reality.

    North Dallas Thirty (886cfc)

  207. Show me the demos that suggest a GOP takeover.
    Comment by Myron — 11/9/2009 @ 6:46 am

    That wasn’t my point. My point was that there are plenty (in fact, tons) of limousine liberals throughout America who will be merely variations of people like Andrew Cuomo. And if you shrug off the impact of a Bernie Madoff because he gamed the system illegally, how about an even bigger, even more liberal (or ultra-liberal) wheeler-dealer who games the system, but apparently in a legal fashion—at least as far as we know? I’m referring to someone like George Soros.

    Then there are the eco-liberals like Al Gore who love padding their pockets by running circles around saps like you, the ones who happily bow down and pay for the environmental religiosity of living-large leftwingers.

    The term “useful idiot” was coined by Joseph Stalin in regards to the fools and suckers who’d fall for his extremist ideology and allure and therefore help him gain both power and wealth. So Stalin and his inner circle — and all the succeeding versions of the Soviet elite — thrived in their little cocoons while the saps (ie, the useful idiots) waited in long bread lines and suffered in hole-in-the-wall apartments. BTW, most of those useful idiots were of the left, not of the right.

    Mark (411533)

  208. Mark, I think that Lenin actually coined the term “Useful Idiot” – Stalin wasn’t quite that cerebral.

    AD - RtR/OS! (7c0a4b)


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