Patterico's Pontifications


Michigan Imam Killed in FBI Shootout

Filed under: Crime — DRJ @ 5:12 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

The FBI conducted a series of raids in Detroit and Dearborn today that resulted in federal charges against 12 members of a fundamentalist Islamic group. The leader of the group was killed in a shoot-out with the FBI:

“Luqman Ameen Abdullah, 53, also known as Christopher Thomas, was gunned down after refusing to surrender and opening fire when the FBI raided a Dearborn warehouse, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

“The eleven defendants are members of a group that is alleged to have engaged in violent activity over a period of many years and known to be armed,” according to a joint statement from the FBI and U.S. Attorney’s Office.

An FBI dog was also killed during one of the raids.”

The group’s spiritual leader, H. Rap Brown, is a familiar name to older folk like me:

“Abdullah was the leader of a group which calls itself “Ummah, a group of mostly African-American converts to Islam, which seeks to establish a separate Sharia-law governed state within the United States,” the press release states.

“The Ummah is ruled by Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, formerly known as H. Rap Brown, who is serving a state sentence… for the murder of two police officers in Georgia.”

The group reportedly espouses anti-government and anti-law enforcement rhetoric, but the charges involve smuggling and fraud and are not terror-related. A CAIR representative described Abdullah [Luqman Ameen Abdullah, who was killed in the shootout] as a respected imam in the community.


134 Responses to “Michigan Imam Killed in FBI Shootout”

  1. H. Rap Freaking Brown?!

    I thought he was long gone.

    When do Sharpton and Jackson start attacking the FBI for racism?

    Patricia (c95a48)

  2. I am sorry for the passing of the dog.

    rab (7a9e13)

  3. Prison recruitment is a nightmare that is slowly becoming real in this country. Don’t expect any Democrats to mention this because of the color of the recruits.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  4. A CAIR representative described Abdullah as a respected imam in the community.

    H. Rap Brown is a “respected” imam? This is all we need to know about the Islamic community in Michigan.

    Dana (e9ba20)

  5. Dana, the name Abdullah seems to be common in the story, as it is also the one “imam” in the shootout.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  6. Dana,

    My fault. The CAIR representative was talking about the decedent, not H Rap Brown, and I didn’t even notice that Brown’s Islamic name also has Abdullah in it. I’ll edit the post to make it clear which one the last sentence is referring to.

    DRJ (dff2ca)

  7. Well, Detroit is ever so slightly better today than yesterday. Still a stinking cesspool, but now a better cesspool.

    Largebill (1d1579)

  8. How many other respected imams in their community would find it acceptable to shoot it out with the FBI? I am disappointed in how much violent anti-American philosophy is considered normal in the Muslim American community these days.

    I have to say I feel the worst about the loss of the dog. I hope the survivors get charges added when they are arraigned because of it.

    – FOP Vermillion

    FOP Vermillion (939d28)

  9. H. Rap is probably also a “respected imam”. I’ll bet Dearbornistan is full of respected imams.

    Gesundheit (254807)

  10. “Respect” is a very misused word in many communities in the USA, these days.

    Gazzer (3bd236)

  11. Poor dog.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  12. God have mercy on the Dog.

    I hope the Imam wipes the Devil’s ass in hell with his tongue.

    Metallica (e4735c)

  13. First as off as a fellow human being and MUSLIM, i hope all of you realize that you will be in HELL before he will. Apparently all of you are racist and unamerican due to the oblivity and ignorance of what you are saying. You are all inhumane…hoping the dog is doing better than another human being. If you knew you knew anything about my husband, you would know he did more for the community without asking for anything in return than anyone one of you that have made disgraceful responses. ALLAHU AKBAR ALLAHU AKBAR ALLAHU AKBAR…i know Allah loves Imam Luqman…And i bet he has made more prayers than any of you combined

    Aishah Abdullah (bbd7fa)

  14. ok that’s creepy.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  15. Sometimes imam ones get shot or otherwise die violently is all. It happens more than you probably realize.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  16. here is a song for you Aishah to help you take your mind off stuff. We listened to it yesterday during the brownout. Play it loud as you want it’s very cool and probably very cathartic.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  17. I try to be as unoblivitous as possible, but…

    Gazzer (3bd236)

  18. Was that for real ?

    JD (15293c)

  19. The Ummah is ruled by Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, formerly known as H. Rap Brown, who is serving a state sentence… for the murder of two police officers in Georgia.

    It may be a “state sentence.” but he’s an inmate at SuperMax in Colorado where one would expect he’s not running much of anything – except his mouth. Totally wishful thinking, of course.

    steve (9e50e4)

  20. Was that for real ?
    Comment by JD — 10/28/2009 @ 7:26 pm

    Magic 8-ball says: “Doubtful”. 😉

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  21. i know Allah loves Imam Luqman…And i bet he has made more prayers than any of you combined

    I don’t doubt it for a moment. Allah is certainly being given credit for a lot of nasty stuff these days.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  22. Allah should get credit for everything that is was and will be

    Aishah Abdullah (bbd7fa)

  23. Remember that Dearborn was where the locals went out into the streets and whooped it up, just as soon as the World Trade Center Towers collapsed. Hard to believe that’s where the Henry Ford Museum is located.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  24. Allah was a false prophet, and “Aishah” is an asshat.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  25. Allah is a pimp.

    highpockets (7a0544)

  26. Allah should get credit for everything that is was and will be
    Comment by Aishah Abdullah — 10/28/2009 @ 7:46 pm

    So Allah shot the imam? Is that the view in your part of Dearborn?

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  27. he didnt shoot him but he created the men who did. that is what is wrong with you idiots. you know nothing, May Allah guide you into the RIGHT PATH

    Aishah Abdullah (bbd7fa)

  28. Allah is Arabic for “God” and is the same god Christians and Jews worship. Perhaps one means Mohammad, the Muslim prophet?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  29. I think AA is a wind up. Aren’t you numpties supposed to say PBUH every time you mention the pedo’s name? Or was that Big Mo?

    Gazzer (3bd236)

  30. I wish Allah could guide me to where I could do this little stunt at about 1:15 that would be neat it’s like you kick and jump and then land on one foot while you clap or something. That’s like an insane amount of coordination.

    happyfeet (f62c43)

  31. Aishah, are the people in your part of Dearborn upset about this? Were they surprised at the criminal activity the imam was involved in?

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  32. there is no “allah”, and mohamed, piss be upon him, was a child molesting, goat humping pervert and part time bandit who, a thousand years before Ron Hubbard, piss be upon him too, invented a fake religion to take advantage of that sucker born every minute. congratulations, you’re it.

    now, kindly go back to worshiping that rock and pounding your head on the ground five times a day: the constant low grade concussion y’all self inflict goes a long way to explaining the dementia that is a hallmark of your “culture”…. which, by the way, is past it’s “Sell by date”.

    no love,
    all the rest of us

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  33. Bisme Allahnir rahman nirraheem…”I bare witness that their is NO DEITY but ALLAH, I bare witness that Rasoolallah Iban Abdullah is the final messanger of Allah, Lord of ALL the world. In defence of Imam Luqman Abdullah whom I have a close and personal relationship with, is the best man that I have ever known. May Allah have mercy on him and give him the highest of Jinnah, Aameen… I dont come to refute the ignorant,because Allah obviously has blocked your sight, hearing,mind and heart. To you be it your way and to me be it mine. However!!! you too shall taste death and stand befor the same DEITY that we the Muslims stand befor on Yomah Kyam(Judgement Day)

    Aaminah Abdul-Aziz (55c938)

  34. i say we bury the dog, with full honors due a fallen comrade, on top of the scum bag, at whatever place they decide to defile with his worthless carcass.

    that way, the dog’s spirit will restore the land, and make it a place of honor, instead of shame.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  35. warning: fishy link @ #33….

    think i’ll forward it to the Jawas.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  36. “Allah is Arabic for “God” and is the same god Christians and Jews worship.”

    – Machinist

    Based on my knowledge of Islam, I don’t believe for a minute that the god Muslims worship is the same as the God that I as a Christian worship – particularly in light of the importance of Christ in Christianity, who is nonetheless relegated to prophet status (and the dubious company that entails) in Islam.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  37. ”I bare witness that their is NO DEITY but ALLAH. . .”

    Motto of the Islamonudist Liberation Front.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  38. Whoever that is, they are a f*cking whack-job, of epic proportions.

    JD (0b1bd3)

  39. I suggest we all go bang a scimtar on our foreheads until we bleed, to show our deep and undying solidarity with Aaminah.


    JD (0b1bd3)

  40. Leviticus,

    With respect, Sir, it is the god of the old testament, the ten commandments, and Moses. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet, though not the son of God. Allah is not translated because the word “god” can be a simple noun as well as the proper name of the deity, so they do not translate it as this is regarded as disrespectful of God. Islam grew out of Judio-Christian religion. To deny it is like saying that Protestants don’t worship the same God as Catholics, or Christians don’t worship the same God as Jews. Islam was not created from nothing.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  41. JD,
    Was there not a time when Christians flogged themselves to show their devotion? I am not sure how spitting on someone’s religion is helpful to the subject of this post. Given that 1/5 to 1/4 of the worlds people share this religion I’m not sure such arrogance is warranted. How does one decide what are sane religions?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  42. When I saw this article earlier today, I thought the same thing as Patricia … H. Rap Brown! I thought he was no more. Too bad.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  43. Machinist – I was mocking Aaminah, not Islam. I have no beef with Islam.

    JD (0b1bd3)

  44. I stand corrected, Sir.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  45. First Koresh, now this.

    imdw (603c39)

  46. This is nothing like Koresh, imdw, but you know that.

    Machinist – I have close relatives that are Iranian Muslims, and you will not find me in the group of people that denigrate Islam. I do make a joke from time-to-time about the “religion of peace” ;-).

    In the immediate circumstance, it seemed quite clear, to me, that I was mocking Aaminah. Thank you for pointing out that it was not clear.

    JD (0fd3fc)

  47. Machinist,

    With respect in turn: whether or not “Allah” means “God” is not the point I’m arguing. I do indeed believe that the centrality of Christ to Christianity (as triune God) means that Christian’s don’t worship the same God as Jews.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  48. In your case the mistake was mine. I lumped you in with others. My apologies.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  49. See? I can be nice to people that do not engage in douchenozzlery 😉

    JD (b9cdd4)

  50. Leviticus,
    I am not a theologian but was not Jesus a Jew? Did he not preach about the same God when he spoke of his Father? I do not understand.

    I realize that religious doctrine and interpretation is not the same but didn’t Jesus claim to be the son of the God the Jews worshiped? I was not aware he claimed to be the Son of a different God or denied the existence of the old Testament God. What am I missing, if you don’t mind?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  51. I bare witness that their is NO DEITY but ALLAH, I bare witness that Rasoolallah Iban Abdullah is the final messanger of Allah, Lord of ALL the world.

    The god of this world is definitely not the Judeo-Christian God. Mohammedans claim the same god, non-Christians believe it. But it is not so.

    Check the link.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  52. JD,
    You may notice I did not bother to name some others. I consider you a person to respect.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  53. And even C.S. Lewis said this allah cat ain’t got what it takes to be a god, much less THE God. Read the Chronicles of Narnia series and you’ll see it clear as the nose on your face (provided you don’t have the Michael Jackson nose-job problem).

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  54. I should’ve said non-Jewish and non-Christians believe it. That was an oversight error and not impugning Providence’s chosen people.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  55. John Hitchcock,
    Are you saying they have turned away from God and are deceived? This is what they say about Christians and Jews.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  56. Machinist, Jesus is Providence. Jesus’ Father is Providence. The Holy Spirit is Providence. Devout non-Messianic Jews understand part of this. Devout Messianic Jews understand all of this.

    Mohammedans do not at all worship the same being as Jews and Christians. Mohammedans blindly worship the music-maker who lost his gig. And, yes, they are deceived.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  57. Machinist,

    Allow me to rephrase: I believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God in part (that is, the God of Abraham) – and certainly, Jesus was a Jew who spoke of (and spoke of the ways of) the God of Abraham.

    However, Jesus also spoke of his own divinity, and of a new path to God which could only be obtained through the acknowledgement of (and obeisance to) that divinity. But orthodox Jews do not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus (as the Messiah). Thus, when Christians worship God, they worship the God of Abraham (the Father), Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit – the Holy Trinity. Orthodox Jews may indeed worship the God of Abraham, and may even worship God as triune (I don’t know orthodox Jewish teaching well enough to say), but they do not include Jesus as part of the Holy Trinity one way or another. And Jesus’ teachings are central to Christianity. Thus, in some sense Christians and Jews are not worshipping the same God.

    This is difficult for me to articulate, because I’m not trained in apologetics, and because it’s something that’s hard for the human mind to grasp (be it trained in apologetics or not) – but I hope that clarifies what I meant a little.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  58. Their idea of Paradise? 72 virgins? What is that? That’s little Mohammed speaking for big Mohammed, that’s what that is. And, seriously, after a week or three of wearing yourself out, now you have 72 grouchy women chewing your ear off! I mean, seriously, what sort of Paradise is that?

    It’s all a “me-first” paradise without looking at the ramifications, instead of a Providence-centered paradise where even women are welcome as equals instead of toys. Think about it. Cannot ever possibly even come close to being the same entity.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  59. Leviticus, Orthodox Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. And that is a big problem that will soon arise. (As Aslan (Providence) said, “I call all times ‘soon.'”) I wrote about that problem on my site.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  60. Jesus wept.

    Ag80 (815bcd)

  61. Leviticus,
    Very well explained, thank you. While I think I understand you and mostly agree, as an outsider I do see the root of all three religions in the Old Testament, the “God of Abraham” as you properly put it. I understand that as they branched off their concept of their relationship to God changed, but it still seems the same God to me. They all recognize the “God of Abraham”.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  62. John Hitchcock,
    I am afraid I just don’t know what to make of what you are saying. You seem to think men make their God rather than being His creations. The mistakes of men don’t define God do they? Is God tainted by the acts of Christians who have done terrible things in His name?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  63. Machinist, men have made their gods for millenia. Do note my very precise capitalization standards in my posting. It is crucially important in this sort of discussion. While men have made their gods for millenia, Providence has made men in His image. There is only One. And Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit form that One. The One of Love and not hate.

    Love the sinner, hate the sin. That’s very precise and accurate. Kill all who refuse to worship your god? That ain’t love. Own 72 women in paradise? That ain’t love either. Those 72 women would definitely not be calling it paradise. There’s another word for that.

    And to your question “Is God tainted by the acts of Christians who have done terrible things in His name?”

    Many will come in that day, saying “Lord, Lord … I will say “I never knew you.”

    It is not possible to be a Christian and do unspeakable harm in His Name. But it is possible to be a professing Christian and do that.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  64. Can not moderate Muslims make the same claims about the things you mention? Were there any Christians during the age of the inquisition or the Crusades? Christian doctrine has changed with time and will continue to do so, but you seem to be saying that only today’s beliefs count. What sets them apart aside from happening to be yours?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  65. Machinist, my church (note the capitalization) has a motto:

    The Bible, the whole Bible, nothing but the Bible.

    I am part of that Protestant crowd that came into being when the Catholic church strayed from the Bible far too much for far too long. While church doctrine has changed over time, Church doctrine has not.

    And, without a complete understanding of the Crusades, that is a tenuous trail to follow. While portions of the Crusades were wholly unacceptable, the Crusades themselves were a defensive mechanism against the Mohammedans of the time. Yes, there was plenty of offense, but, like in football, the best defense is a good offense.

    And you seem to be equating Providence and Christianity with your view of the dregs of Christians. If I say perfection is the standard Providence set forth and I admit I am far from being perfect, why do you still focus on me instead of on Providence?

    “I’m not going to worship Providence because everyone who worships Providence is a hypocrite.” That’s a classic line and a classic focus-shift. Focus on the Standard and not on the people who fall short of the Standard. Because, if you focus on the Standard, you will become one of those people who fall short of the Standard.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  66. John Hitchcock,
    I know some very devout Christians and I greatly respect their faith. I am pointing out that you are judging Christians and Muslims by different standards. When Christians fall short you blame mens’ weakness but when Muslims fall short you blame their faith and their god. Why should I not judge you both by the same standard in this respect, one or the other?

    I do not judge the Crusades, I judge the atrocities performed and sanctioned in the name of God. Likewise the inquisition. What one century calls liberal, another may call “unspeakable”. What makes this particular point in time God’s standard? Is it fair to judge men in the past by todays standards? Will it be fair for future men to judge us by their later values?

    Who’s values will God judge us by?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  67. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” That is the judgment Providence will make.

    I am pointing out that you are judging Christians and Muslims by different standards.

    Point it out more precisely because I fully disagree.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  68. “Point it out more precisely….”

    It appears to me that you claim any Christian who commits unspeakable acts by today’s standards is not a true Christian and does not reflect on Christianity but any Muslim who commits such acts prove that Islam itself is false and shares the blame. This seems a double standard to me.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  69. Is the particular translation of the Bible used by your church the “word” that God will use to judge who comes to him? Which version is it?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  70. What is the Christian standard? What is the Mohammedan standard? How do each proselytize? Which has love? Which has an other-centered afterlife that doesn’t involve subjugation of others? What does Islam preach in regard to Jews? What does Christianity preach in regard to Jews? Which belief system says lieing is wrong? Which belief system says lieing is proper depending on the recipient of the lie?

    If God is the God of Truth, where is there room for lieing to “apostate”? If God is the God of Truth, where is there room for the Mohammedan position on lies?

    There is no double-standard here. Or do you see something different in what I categorically stated?

    (And, yes, I’m trying to be diplomatic but failing miserably at it.)

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  71. Is the particular translation of the Bible used by your church the “word” that God will use to judge who comes to him? Which version is it?

    Diplomacy off. Proselytization factor zero.

    What part of “There’s no way to heaven but through Jesus” do you not understand? What part of “Jesus Himself said that” do you not understand? It has absolutely ZERO to do with “what version of ‘my’ Bible do I use” nonsense. The fact I prefer the NIV (1980) and NASB (1980) to the KJV for readability and will not do the squishy new NIV has nothing to do with nothing. The fact many in the church use the KJV has nothing to do with nothing, either. Some even use the Living Bible. What’s your point, other than using a false narrative style attack?

    There is a saying, “Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.” My church fixes that error. “Jesus said it, that settles it; therefore, I believe it.” If you go back to the original Hebrew, it says the same thing. Jesus is the only way to heaven. Period. End of statement.

    The fact Mohammedans claim otherwise proves their god is not Providence. Get the picture? Or do I need to lay it down in pre-school terms?

    Mohammedans color outside the lines and never inside the lines. Jews and Christians color inside the lines. Providence said so.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  72. I’m attacking nothing. I have been trying to suggest to some that spitting on another man’s faith is not productive.

    You are claiming your church follows the word of Jesus and I am suggesting that Jesus did not speak English. The various translations and interpretations of the Bible make it too imprecise in English to parse the words too closely. Do the Ten Commandments tell us not to kill or not to murder? There is a difference, Sir.

    You are reading attacks, claims, and viewpoints into my questions that are not there. I might suggest that as a non Christian, your quotations might not be as authoritative to me as they are to you.

    “Diplomacy off.”

    Perhaps you are not suited to such a discussion. Perhaps we should say good night. I have said nothing to disrespect your faith. I simply do not share your assumptions of divine favor.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  73. The Ten Commandments tell us not to murder. In fact the Law tells us to kill murderers and rapists and other people.

    And my whole thing was proving the Judeo-Christian Lord is not at all the Mohammedan god. In your “non-attacks” you missed that proof. Bully for you.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  74. God is not the author of confusion. He cannot say one thing to Christians and Jews and say an entirely different thing to the Muslims. There can only be one explanation for this confusion. They are not worshipping the same God. The God of Christians who is also God of the Jews is a God of love. He is also the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. A jew. Islam has no relationship whatsoever with Christianity. There is only One way to eternal life. His name is Jesus Christ. The Son of God. The end of searching. May His name forever be praised. Amen.

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  75. Doesn’t the Bible say the Commandment is “Thou shalt not kill?”

    I am quite aware that the beliefs of your religion are not compatible with the beliefs of their religion but that does not explain why your book is more legitimate than their book, aside from your belief in it. You both start with the Old Testament but part ways. I see a common root in the God of Abraham. Your “proof” is only proof if I am a Christian.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  76. John

    I just was handed a book by the Islamic education ministry in it is Jesus (which I hear his name ALOT on the radio) is considered by many muslims as the third most important person in Islam. theuy have the story of the virgin mary in there as well as the first 6 to 8 books of the bible.

    After flippiing through it it appears that they recognise Jesus as the Messiah but the returning Person is Allah not Jesus – Jesus – is a higher sort of John the Baptist.


    EricPWJohnson (d9ce25)

  77. I’m sorry the returning person is Mohammed (PBUH) not Allah in the previous post

    EricPWJohnson (d9ce25)

  78. A franc is a franc no matter what. Your franc, my franc, same diff. Right? But if yours is a french franc and mine is a swiss franc, then everything goes splat. Suddenly they are not the same at all, but to the ignorant (look it up), they are still the same thing.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  79. EPWJ, that proves my point. Jesus Himself said (paraphrase) “My way or the highway.” And the Mohammedans chose the highway.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  80. You are not making sense to me so I bid you good night.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  81. The Mohammedans claim Jesus was merely another prophet, albeit a major one. Jesus said Providence is His Father, no equivocation whatsoever. Jesus further said (paraphrase) “My way or the highway.” The Old Testament said any prophet who prophesies wrong must be killed because he is a false prophet. False prophet. Not a prophet of Providence.

    For the Mohammedan claim to be true, Jesus had to have lied. And that would mean He was no prophet at all. And that means the Mohammedan claim has to be false.

    So, for the Mohammedan claim to be true, the Mohammedan claim has to be false. How’s that working out for you?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  82. it’s not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been tried and found difficult.

    personally, i gave up being Catholic for Lent one year, and i have a real hard time reconciling an “all knowing, all loving god” that would consign one of his/her creations, made in it’s own image, to eternal damnation and torment for failure to worship, since “all knowing/loving” would seem to preclude “worship me or else”….

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  83. redc1c4, try this one on for size:

    Nobody has free will but everyone has freedom of choice. You choose to be a servant of Providence or you choose to be a servant of the music-maker-without-a-gig.

    Just like you choose to buy an airline ticket somewhere or you choose not to. A lack of choice is a choice not to, by default.

    Still, the choice is up to you.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  84. i have free will. i can consider, and chose to argue for or against ant or all of the following options, or any other that someone might think of.

    i can choose to believe. i can choose not to believe, or i can choose to say “who gives a damn?”

    my friend, is free will

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  85. angry imams arent really happy people are they. he probably found his following in the time he served in prison for felonies.

    willydabro (048668)

  86. #27 Reminds me that islam is such a self excusing religion. When everything is preordained, there is no need for personal responsibility or obedience to rule of law.

    Also, like many of the commenters, I too, was genuinely concerned about the dog.

    arch (882b84)

  87. Islam grew out of Judio-Christian religion.

    I believe that Islam was derived from Judaism as it was practiced in the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century. Muhammad thought he had found an improvement on Judaism and was angry when the Jews did not accept his new religion. This is at the root of the hostility between Islam and the Jews.

    One theory about the role of the religious dogma in Islam as contrasted with Christianity is that the God of Islam is arbitrary and unknowable whereas the God of Christianity is open to interpretation and the seeking of knowledge. This has resulted in different characteristics of the societies based on these philosophies. Christian society has been one of research into physical laws that began as a desire to know God and ended up as a desire to know the rules of nature.

    Islam has not had such an interest in basic research since the Age of Translations and even that was mostly the accumulation of previous knowledge and assimilation of that thought useful. This has left Islam at great disadvantage in the modern world. The recent Islamist movement is one that would reject even this limited advance into modern life and a return to medieval times is desired. This is a fantasy but a deadly one for a while. There would be little danger to modern society but for a weird self hatred of modern elites.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  88. Black American jailhouse Muslims are about as representative of Islam as the Ku Klux Klan with its anti-Semitism and anti-Catholicism is representative of Christianity.

    nk (df76d4)

  89. Same thing for the Taliban. Young illiterates, taught by semi-illiterates in the Pakistan back-country, thinking they follow a Koran they cannot read.

    nk (df76d4)

  90. Based on my knowledge of Islam, I don’t believe for a minute that the god Muslims worship is the same as the God that I as a Christian worship

    Bingo – I don’t worship any particular “God,” but when those attempt to use their own version of this deity in order to subjucate others to their will, then they can literally go to Hell, if it exists.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  91. In case I’m not being clear, people are free to practice any religion whatsoever, as long as they don’t force it on others – is that not what our country was founded on? I’m beginning to think that the Brits actually feel otherwise these days (along with the Dutch and the Germans).

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  92. Muslims worship the same God as the Christians and the Jews. We believe Jesus is coming back as the Messiah, we also believe 5 Pillars. Confession of faith, daily prayer, alms, pilgrimage to Mecca, and fasting during Ramadan. I was born, raised and baptized as a Christian. It wasnt until I became Muslim, that I learned how to have a relationship with God. I know it must be hard to swallow all of this false knowledge you have about Islam. As a Muslim I learned to pray for people who have hatred in their hearts. I have learned that not everyone will believe as I believe. It is not right to mock the belief of anyone.
    Belief is what keeps people going. Belief is what makes people try their best to be humane and decent. We as Muslims believe in feeding and clothing the poor. We believe in helping the sick, women, children, and elderly. I as a Muslim will always promote peace and calmness wherever I go. As well as show respect for all faiths and beliefs.
    I do not believe what you believe, you do not believe what I believe. Be unto you your religion, and be unto me mine. In other words, in order to not offend anyones beliefs, I will not criticize your religeous leaders, or how you pray, or anything of that nature.
    This is America, we have the right to our own religion. We have the right to be peaceful, and as humans, we have the right to live without conflict due to who we are as long as we do not hurt anyone.
    My teacher was Imam Luqman Abdullah. He taught me to not be judgemental. He taught me to be modest, and he taught me most of all peace. He taught to to love all because I never know when an Angel is in my presence. And though some mock praying 5 times a day, I have prayed and connected with God more since I converted to Islam, then I ever have in my entire life. So I will continue to pray, and fast, and read my Quran along with my bible as I have sone for 5 years now. And I will continue to gain understanding and knowledge. And most of all I will grieve the loss of a good man. MY Imam, Luqman Abdullah…
    I pray that God(Allah) touches all of our hearts and fill them with compassion for each other and life, as well as understanding for one another. Ameen

    Aishah Abdullah (bbd7fa)

  93. “When Christians fall short you blame mens’ weakness but when Muslims fall short you blame their faith and their god.”

    I’ll give you a clue: Jesus said “Go forth and preach to the world.” Mohammad said “Make war upon the whole world.”

    pst314 (672ba2)

  94. “i know Allah loves Imam Luqman”

    Instead of saying Allah, use his older name: Satan.

    And as for Satan feeling “love”, I would point you to the concluding chapter of The Screwtape Letters. 🙂

    pst314 (672ba2)

  95. […] domestic terrorists – which is something that’s going to please everybody, with the possible exception of CAIR.  And as can be seen from the links, most news organizations are capable of reporting on this in a […]

    Moe Lane » NYT: So, they had to shoot a guy. Please don’t ask any more… (da2344)

  96. he taught me most of all peace.

    Yes, the peace of a suicide bomber. Sorry. Go teach your ideas to the Muslims that are killing other Muslims and when you have succeeded at that, come back and lecture me.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  97. My sister-in-law is a Muslim, from a family that’s been Muslim since at least 1340. She is also the principal of a 4,000 student Chicago Public School. Among many other accomplishments.

    She also cooks a perfect Thanksgiving dinner.

    nk (df76d4)

  98. Instead of saying Allah, use his older name: Satan.

    From what I’ve read, Allah is simply the Arabic name for God, and also used by Christian Arabs. And I personally am more concerned about how people behave toward others than what they professedly believe.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  99. […] Muslim domestic terrorists – which is something that’s going to please everybody, with the possible exception of CAIR.  And as can be seen from the links, most news organizations are capable of reporting on this in a […]

    NYT: So, they had to shoot a guy. Please don’t ask any more… - Moe_Lane’s blog - RedState (b8f4ec)

  100. From what I’ve read, Allah is simply the Arabic name for God, and also used by Christian Arabs. And I personally am more concerned about how people behave toward others than what they professedly believe.

    Comment by Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. — 10/29/2009 @ 7:34 am

    That’s my impression, too. “God” with a capital “G”. God with a small “g” is “il” — “el” in Hebrew.

    nk (df76d4)

  101. I think 72 VIRGINIANS beginning with George Washinton and Thomas Jefferson are beating the crap out of these cretin Muslim converts.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  102. “From what I’ve read, Allah is simply the Arabic name for God”

    Um, I was sarcastic, inspired by Mohammad’s distortions of the Jewish and Christian scripture and his incitements to do evil.

    pst314 (672ba2)

  103. Good bye funny man!!!!!!!!

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  104. Hello, silly boy.

    pst314 (672ba2)

  105. A member of a violent Muslim group shoots at police and our peaceful Muslim commenter only has words of condemnation for those who condemn the violent Muslim. We’ve only seen that a few million times before.

    pst314 (672ba2)

  106. pst314,
    Um, I was sarcastic, inspired by Mohammad’s distortions of the Jewish and Christian scripture and his incitements to do evil.

    One can find objectively evil things in the Old Testament as well, such as destroying entire tribes and cities, sparing no one. Both kinds of actions are justified as orders from God. What’s the difference, aside from the claim that my God is right, their God is wrong?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  107. I’m curious when the muslim community is going to start cleaning up the bizarre splinter factions of Islam in their community that are little better than criminal gangs organized around a mosque?

    I certainly do not think that such gang/mosques represent a large fraction of the muslim community but their tolerance of the existance of such is a stain on the muslim community almost as great as their condoning terrorist messages among themselves.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  108. What I like about the Bible is the evolution from a personal relationship with God to a priesthood.

    Adam and Abraham talk to God personally. Then Moses comes along and he talks to God personally and God makes a contract (Covenant) with him and then the authority is transferred to the Levites. And they build all kinds of places to work and live in that people pay for if they want to be right with God.

    And then Jesus comes along, and He talks to people personally, and He makes a New Covenant, and He gets tortured and killed, and His Apostles get tortuted and killed, and a bunch of priests take their place. And they build all kinds of places to work and live in that people pay for if they want to be right with God.

    Basically, I don’t get it, I think.

    nk (df76d4)

  109. I think that the apostles were mostly just advance PR guys for JC, but then that’s MHO.

    I’m curious when the muslim community is going to start cleaning up the bizarre splinter factions of Islam in their community that are little better than criminal gangs organized around a mosque?

    I assume your question is rhetorical, since we’ve seen no condemnation from mainstream Muslim org’s regarding the likes of CAIR and other noxious proponents and/or apologists for terrorism. I’m waiting for the inevitable knee – jerk reactions from the local groups here concerning the recent arrests of the men planning to travel to Holland in order to kill the evil Danish cartoonist. “Hey, don’t you dare traffic in stereotypes about our peaceful and tolerant religion!” Yeah, right.

    Dmac (5ddc52)

  110. Allah – the Moon God

    allah is nit the same god as the GOD of the jews and christians.

    peedoffamerican (9722f7)

  111. Also see Is Allah the Name of God?

    peedoffamerican (9722f7)

  112. I wish my question was not rhetorical, Dmac. I really do.

    SPQR (26be8b)


    Nailah Asiya (9ba15b)

  114. Nailah, your comment does not address anyone’s points.

    Why can you not address them?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  115. Well, why can’t God and Jesus kind of stick around and hang with us, like They did with Adam and Abraham and Moses and Peter and James and all those other guys, and tell us Themselves what’s right, instead of just leaving some books and some preachers we have to give money to?

    nk (df76d4)

  116. Machinist…I think if you trace the commandment back to the origianl Aramaic, you will find that it translates as “murder” (H/T: Dennis Prager), since capital-punishment was an approved punishment in the early Jewish Faith. It probably got corrupted to “kill” by one of the “softy” Protestant translations.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c561b5)

  117. For my part, I believe They have “stuck around”, and do “hang with us” – in the sense of Abraham and Moses, certainly, if not in the sense of Peter or James. But if we trust Peter and James to be true (in their writings) to what they witnessed, and we have faith, then I think we can figure out what’s right of our own accord (provided that we strive to live in ways pleasing and honorable to God).

    And I don’t think any true faith assumes the necessity of payment to priests for salvation – properly motivated tithing is born of gratitude for the gift of a salvation given freely by God, meant to facilitate God’s work (through his people) here on Earth.

    But I don’t place my faith in priests or pastors. I place my faith in God.

    Leviticus (30ac20)

  118. AD, the word “kill” appears on the King James translation. In 17th century English, “kill” was a wrongful killing, “slay” was the word most often used to indicate the non-wrongful killing of someone.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  119. Comment by SPQR — 10/29/2009 @ 11:26 am

    Your scholarship is one of the many reasons why we keep you around. It is a plague of our times that we judge historical occurrances using currently contemporary definitions instead of finding out the meanings of the original writers – but, enough about controversy at SCOTUS.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c561b5)

  120. Comment by Leviticus — 10/29/2009 @ 11:10 am

    I intrust my soul to God, and my life to John Moses Browning.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c561b5)

  121. AD,
    That was my point. It is unwise to try and parse too closely a translation of a translation. When someone says they follow the word of God it is important to realize that few in this country can read those words as written long ago (setting aside the issue of how long it took to write them down and how much editing was done when the Bible was compiled. The Bible is not like the tablets with the original Ten Commandments.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  122. SPQR,
    “I’m curious when the muslim community is going to start cleaning up the bizarre splinter factions of Islam in their community that are little better than criminal gangs organized around a mosque?”

    Would it not be equally fair to ask when Christianity is going to clean up similar groups like Jackson’s, Sharpton’s, and Phelps’? Just wondering what you think.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  123. Somehow this thread degenerated into a serious discussion.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  124. How far is a religion responsible for the extremists that call it theirs?

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  125. Machinist, as much as I dislike Jackson, Sharpton and Phelps, they do not run criminal gangs within mosques, using religious doctrine to justify rape, robbery, etc. As far as how far a religion is responsible for those extremists, they are not responsible for the extremists’ existance but they are responsible for allowing them to flourish without condemnation or allowing them to shelter within the mainstream religion.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  126. happtfeet,
    I always consider it serious when the Feds kill American citizens. The reasons given are good but they have lost the benefit of a doubt after Ruby Ridge and Waco. I expect more than their say so before believing them. I expect it will be forthcoming.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  127. Somehow this thread degenerated into a serious discussion.

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/29/2009 @ 12:39 pm

    Well, my thought when I first saw the header was:

    Why would the FBI shoot David Bowie’s wife, and what the hell was she doing in Michigan in the first place?

    Matador (e01f85)

  128. SPQR,
    Respectfully I must disagree. Jackson and Sharpton ARE running criminal enterprises as religious organizations and there are many such in cities like Oakland, San Francisco, and I assume others. Leaders in these organizations hiding as churches and charities have committed rape, torture and murder. Mainstream churches are afraid to condemn them lest they be called racist and seem politically incorrect.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  129. Why this individual seems to have been killed:
    When a cop tells you to “put down the gun”, and you don’t…
    Perhaps he just wished to commit “suicide by cop”.

    AD - RtR/OS! (c561b5)

  130. No, Machinist, you are not correct. Your comments are simply not factual.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  131. I am afraid I must disagree with you, Sir. No offense.

    Machinist (79b3ab)

  132. Religion is a powerful and dangerous thing, and that’s a fact.

    nk (df76d4)

  133. H Rap Brown made black beautiful. The fact that he killed two black police officers is tragic. We lost three strong black men that day. These events hark back to the 60’s and cointelpro. I guess the FBI hasnt learned any new tricks. I dont know if I had to chose between a dog and a man the man would win. It’s a shame the iman lost his life for a dog.

    Steven (94989d)

  134. No!
    The “iman” lost his life because he choose to violently confront the FBI.
    The dog was collateral damage.

    AD - RtR/OS! (a63966)

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