Patterico's Pontifications

9/17/2009

Obama Cancels European Missile Shield (Updated x2)

Filed under: International,Obama — DRJ @ 9:26 am



[Guest post by DRJ]

President Barack Obama has canceled the Eastern European missile shield system:

“The missile defense system, planned under the Bush administration, was to have been built in the Czech Republic and Poland. The proposed system was pitched as a way to fend off potential attacks from Iran but it became a major irritant in relations with Russia, with whom the Obama administration is now negotiating a new Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty.

“We have updated our intelligence assessment of Iran’s missile programs, which emphasizes the threat posed by Iran’s short and medium-range missiles, which are capable of reaching Europe,” Obama said in a brief announcement from the White House.

“This new ballistic missile defense program will best address the threat posed by Iran’s ongoing ballistic missile defense program,” he added.
***
The decision comes as the Obama administration has been seeking closer ties with Moscow and as Russian President Dmitry Medvedev prepares to visit the United States next week for the U.N. General Assembly and the Group of 20 nations economic summit. “

As Sen. Lindsey Graham correctly says (even a stopped clock is right sometimes), this will “scare the crap” out of Poland and the Czech Republic. Senator Jon Kyl criticized the decision as Obama caving to Russia:

“The decision announced today by the administration is dangerous and short-sighted,” the Arizona Republican said. “Not only does this decision leave America vulnerable to the growing Iranian long-range missile threat, it also turns back the clock to the days of the Cold War, when Eastern Europe was considered the domain of Russia. This will be a bitter disappointment, indeed, even a warning to the people of Eastern Europe.”

Obama continues his quest to distance America from its democratic allies and embrace international thugs. At this point, free nations would be foolish to trust Obama.

— DRJ

UPDATE: Fred Thompson weighs in (audio link). Thompson thinks this is all about currying favor with Russia, who he believes is only interested in reasserting its influence in the region. Thompson says our NATO allies must be “flabbergasted” and “afraid” because “in one fell swoop” they learned they can’t depend on America or its word. This policy confounds our allies and encourages our enemies, he said, and it should be the other way around.

UPDATE 2: Don’t miss Dan Collins’ detailed post on this topic. H/T Bob Reed.

68 Responses to “Obama Cancels European Missile Shield (Updated x2)”

  1. It took a lot to get Eastern Europe to support this. They know there will be consequences, and they know the USA won’t help them. Russia can bully Georgia, Ukraine, Latvia, and now Poland and the CR.

    Will these nations ever trust America again? Should they? Why did people vote for Obama, knowing he would support so much evil? Did they really not know that?

    Juan (bd4b30)

  2. “Not only does this decision leave America vulnerable to the growing Iranian long-range missile threat…”

    Does that make any sense to anyone?

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  3. Can anyone trust the Big O?

    PatriotRider (cbe732)

  4. PatriotRider, yes, in fact, many people can trust Obama. People who want you and me to die. That’s an ugly way of phrasing it, but it’s the truth.

    Putin, Ahmedinejad, Chavez, Zelaya, Carter, Mugabe

    Bob Loblaw, badly written articles aside (it seemed about par to me), Iran’s ability to blow up the USA is indeed helped by this. The main point of this shield was to discourage Iran from developing missiles. It would take a much more expensive effort on their part to develop an effective ability to nuke anyone if we had a missile shield in the area.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  5. This is the sort of thing that happens when you elect an inexperienced fence sitter like Obama to lead the free world. I think he’s trying to balance his campaign BS with policy decisions and its starting to get really ugly.

    james conrad (6bb6e6)

  6. And he does it on the 70th anniversary (to the day) of the Soviet invasion and occupation of Poland.

    Russia has already announced that they appreciate Obama doing their bidding but they will not be changing any of their planned behaviour.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  7. Obama to all Eastern European Countries – go f-ck yourselves. Watch the Russian tanks complete the conquest of Georgia, and more attempted poisonings of heads of state they deem to be “unfriendly.” What, us worry?

    Dmac (a93b13)

  8. And he does it on the 70th anniversary

    I don’t know what’s worse: the current administration purposefully timing their announcement to an infamous event, which one of the nations most affected by that announcement was at the center of, or doing it inadvertantly. I guess if it’s the latter, then it shows how amazingly incompetent Barry Obama is. If it’s the former, it shows just how diabolical he is.

    Personally, I think his way of thinking and responding is a combination of the two. The ludicrous thing is such people (eg, Venezuela’s president, Cuba’s Castro, the ones running and managing places like a Detroit or Mexico) believe their halo of supposed compassion and populism balances all the misery and horror they inflict directly or indirectly.

    I wonder if history will record that America in various ways — either symbolically or statistically, if not both — jumped the shark on the occasion of the current guy in the White House being placed there.

    Mark (411533)

  9. If there was any doubt that BHO was going to rescind any agreements GWB made with Israel to encourage the Gaza withdrawal, this has eliminated it.

    MIK (4363c7)

  10. Jay Nordlinger today on NRO:

    I thought Barack Obama would be a poor and troublesome president. Did I think he would yuk it up with Hugo Chávez, smirk with Daniel Ortega about the Bay of Pigs, turn his wrath on a Central American democracy trying to follow its constitution, denounce President Bush abroad, bow to the king of Saudi Arabia, endorse a radical Middle Eastern view of how Israel came into being, knock Western countries that try to protect Muslim girls from unwanted shrouding, invite the Iranian regime to our Fourth of July parties, stay essentially mute in the face of counterrevolution in Iran, squeeze and panic Israel, cold-shoulder the Cuban democrats in order to warm to the Cuban dictatorship, scrap missile defense in Eastern Europe, and refuse to meet with the Dalai Lama — in addition to his attempts to have government eat great portions of American society? No, I did not. You?

    P.S. When President Ford, at the encouragement of Secretary Kissinger, refused to meet with Solzhenitsyn, conservatives thought this was a pretty rotten move and posture. I hope these same conservatives, and their heirs, see what President Obama’s snubbing of the Dalai Lama means today.

    P.P.S. When President Obama does something — even a small something — like turn off the “news ticker” outside the American interests section in Havana, he tries to make nice with oppressors. Sometimes in life you have to choose: whether to make nice with the oppressors or with the oppressed. It’s hard to do both.

    I don’t think we’ve had a worse president. It’s early but I can’t think of one. There were weak ones who quickly left the scene, like old Tippecanoe, but with the possible exception of Buchanan, none seems to be worse.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  11. We ‘learned’ this week that Iran is to begin this fall enriching bomb-grade Uranium in quantity and testing in the next year.

    With this announcement Israel knows it is on its own.

    Whether to use conventional weapons and likely fail or start Armageddon short-circuiting its destruction?

    Missiles have begun trickling out of Lebanon anew.

    Republicans wring their hands in histrionic worry, like they’ll see another election.

    gary gulrud (06aaa3)

  12. “. . .makes Jimmy Carter look like Winston Churchill.”

    Variety

    Official Internet Data Office (a2a60f)

  13. I’m about as sure as the rest of you that Zero is a crap president and a worse human being. But strictly in terms of defending America’s interests, I’m not as sure this is a bad decision.

    If what Zero (and Gates) say is true–a leap where Zero’s concerned–newer technology and newer intel suggest that cheaper and less irksome tools may supply the same deterrent. Basically, Zero’s on record as claiming interceptors work, a first for the Far Left.

    Also, Zero claims he called the CR and Poland this week to alert them to his decision. This is a slap in the face to those who went way out on a limb to agree to the shield in the first place.

    He’s a lousy president, just the dregs. He spit on our allies belatedly informing them of his decision rather than conferring with them. But I do believe we and they will not be any more vulnerable with newer mobile tracking and interceptor technology.

    Because missile defense systems work.

    spongeworthy (c2e8fe)

  14. He did not plan on releasing this today. It was leaked to the press and they had to scurry to call a press conference to get things back under control. They planned to wait until all the big UN meetings next week. Probably planned to stage another theatrical event and showcase his oratorical skills and wordplay to make it seem not what it is and to lead to a happy meeting with Medvedev, scheduled for then also. The Obama presidency is a disaster of major proportions.

    bio mom (a1e126)

  15. Obama has cancelled the Eastern European missile shield on the same day it’s learned that Iran now has nukes!

    I want Obama’s resignation on my desk this afternoon.

    Official Internet Data Office (a2a60f)

  16. spongeworthy, there’s just more to it than whether one system works or not.

    All of these systems combine to increase the number of missile per target (or decrease the number of targets). Seriously, if we did have a nuclear exchange, Russia or China or whoever will be able to greatly increase the number of targets for every system they know we aren’t using. I do not think the abilities of these systems are actually in line with what’s advertised, either.

    This is a very large decrease in defense ability, even though, as you note, we have an ability from the ocean that I hope is enough. But hope isn’t enough, my friend.

    Also, diplomatically, it matters that the USA is getting nothing and giving everything, and that Russia is getting all it wants and giving us nothing… loudly. They keep telling us they will not help with Iran, and that matters to Venezuela. It’s going to be a worldwide loss of influence that we backed off a system we had expended a fortune putting in place. This level of weakness will eventually kill thousands of innocent people… probably Americans.

    I dearly hope that the Russians don’t get their hands on this technology, but that’s what happened with China and Clinton.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  17. Juan,
    It was a US Senator that said that.

    I fail to see how a missile defence program based in Czech/Poland would prevent Iran from either developing long range ICBMs (long range enough to hit the US) or prevent them from hitting the US if it actually had them. Would they send them over the Arctic?

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  18. Would they send them over the Arctic?

    No, they’d send them in a boat into New York harbor. Eastern Europe would be nuked, or threatened with that, separately.

    Official Internet Data Office (a2a60f)

  19. Let me elaborate for a second. Let’s say China was about to nuke the USA. They would want to knock out certain places for sure. Places they know have lots of nukes, fighter planes, communication facilities, etc. They have some estimate of how many missiles it would take to be sure the job is done. They have to factor in the reliability of their missiles and all the countermeasures in place. Say they have 100 missiles that work half the time. That’s 50 targets. But it takes 5 missiles to knock out a target if we’re using one missile defense, and 10 to knock out a target if we’re using two defenses. So China can hit ten targets if we remove the Poland style defense, and 5 if we keep it.

    That’s huge. Over the actual numbers of missiles and targets, it means MILLIONS of lives to have a system in place that theoretically reduces the success rate in Chinese intelligence’s estimation.

    that’s why it’s always been so godawful to reduce the research of these systems (which democrats have been doing since the 80s), and so godawful not to sell these things as very effective. That’s why russia hates this technology… it makes it impossible for them to be sure before a launch, and that makes them a lot less scary.

    The fact that we might be able to completely stop an attack from North Korea or Iran is also very nice, but the fact that we would dramatically fraction the power of a stockpile of missiles is a big deal too.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  20. bob loblaw, US Senators say dumb things, but think of this from Iran’s point of view.

    they can barely afford to develop these missiles. It’s really hard and it’s really expensive, and they are very poor. Why develop the missiles if we have systems in place to reduce their chances of success?

    I think Iran is just one of many reasons for the system, but if I were an insane Iranian weapons developer, I would go into dirty nukes or short range bombs or truck delivered bombs. Especially with a shield in place.

    I get that the causality is stretched, but it’s not beyond understanding.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  21. We are all French now. (And we’re getting ready to betray both the Afghans and the Iraqis.)

    Chuck Roast (f2ccc0)

  22. With this, Obama has emboldened our enemies. Putin must be laughing himself silly–he got this for nothing. China won’t believe any strong talk after this. And we may have just seen the precursor to the long-anticipated Iran-Israel conflict. Obama is going to be the death of this country, literally.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  23. Bob Loblaw:

    “Not only does this decision leave America vulnerable to the growing Iranian long-range missile threat…”

    Does that make any sense to anyone?

    It does to me:

    The U.S. Air Force’s National Air and Space Intelligence Center said in a report made public in June that Iran, with support from outside sources, could produce an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the United States within six years.

    “Iran has ambitious ballistic missile and space launch development programs and, with sufficient foreign assistance, Iran could develop and test an ICBM capable of reaching the United States by 2015,” the report said.

    The link says the Israelis believe Iran will be able to hit London in 3-4 years.

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  24. I’ve updated the post with a link to Fred Thompson’s response.

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  25. Welcome to 1939!

    AD - RtR/OS! (5b5739)

  26. what Fred forgot is that our allies are Ear Leader’s enemies, and our enemies are Ear Leader’s allies.

    it all makes sense if you look at it that way.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  27. Welcome to 1939!
    Comment by AD – RtR/OS

    I think it’s more like welcome to the 50’s and 60’s, watching Soviet expansion over Europe, and the 70’s, watching Soviet influence grow in Central America.

    If the Soviets can capitalize on the chaos of drug lords in Mexico, who needs Cuba.

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  28. What a nightmare the Big O is. Every day something new. That’s the “Change”, where’s the hope? Probably in Russia, or the Iranian government (certainly not the Iranian dissidents). Not here in America.

    Does he EVER think about consequences? The 3rd world war could start any time, if Iran has a nuke, it’s not that far to Israel. Israel could strike preemptively… and who would jump into the fray?

    While our allies reassess their options, here we sit hog-tied, all credibility shot.

    But it’s all about the nobility of reaching out, open-handedly, for peace, it’s all about being so damn sure he’s right that he’ll gamble the future of millions of people with grandiloquent gestures.

    People speculate about Obama’s competence. If you change the assumptions, from the standard President that acts in America’s behalf, to a *president* who wants to destroy America, he begins to look much more competent.

    I know, I sound like a right-wing nutjob. But despite trying to credit him with good intentions, I’m having trouble doing so in light of his actions and falsehoods. I would like to be wrong. But imagine the next step the Big O could take to dismantle the economy, governance, civil society, or international relations, and wait – he might do any damned thing. He’s done quite a lot already.

    Never mind the health bill, I wonder how many Democrats feel their party has been used as a Trojan Horse?

    jodetoad (059c35)

  29. Meanwhile, Russia is increasing its provocation against Georgia, an ally of ours. And Russia just got a concession in its favor over the missile defense shield without giving us anything.

    (The missile system was never a challenge to Russia’s nuclear deterrent as the system was placed in the wrong spot to intercept Russian ICBM’s aimed at the US over the north pole. Russia opposed the missile system over the symbolism of a NATO system being located in Poland and the Czech Republic emphasizing Russia’s loss of influence in former Warsaw Pact nations. )

    So basically Obama is Putin’s blow up doll.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  30. DRJ,
    That is exactly my point. A Czech/Poland based missile defense shield does nothing to protect the US from…well anyone (see Juan & SPQR’s contributions to the thread vis-a-vis China & Russia). You could even make the argument that it pushes Iran towards a more rapid development of long range ICBMs if they truly wanted the capacity to hit the US – although as others noted they have a number of much simpler scenarios.

    The missile defense shield in eastern Europe (which as far as I know still doesn’t work) was designed to protect Europe, establish a foothold in eastern Europe and provoke Russia. But if push came to shove, would the US have ever gone to war if Russia wanted to re-exert its considerable influence over those eastern European countries? Why don’t we ask Georgia.

    If Europe feels it needs a missile defense shield to protect itself from Iranian (or Russian) aggression, let it build one. Last I heard they were doing fairly well economically (talking in a relative sense here) and had a well established mechanism for acting in concert. I believe I’ve read numerous complaints before on this blog about other nations free riding on US defense.

    Our way forward with Russia is to keep pushing them further towards the western world’s democratic and capitalistic norms – not sticking our finger in their eye. Particularily over a system that was massively expensive, still didn’t work, and did nothing to protect homeland interests.

    My 2 cents.

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  31. Once again, Bob, we didn’t even get 2 cents worth.

    The missile shield was not “designed” to provoke Russia – and the Russians knew it. Russia decided to take its construction as an affront to its imperialist dreams against its neighbors and propagandized against it specifically to distract its citizens from its internal problems. Just as its adventures in Georgia distract its citizens with trumped up external conflict.

    Obama is not pushing Russia “further towards the western world’s democratic and capitalistic norms”. Instead, Obama is rewarding Russia’s adventurism and doing nothing to discourage Russia from more bullying.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  32. Well we can disagree on the motivations SPQR, but you still have to sell me on what exactly the US gains from the missile shield and whether that is worth the costs.

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  33. Anyone who is surprised by this obviously was either unaware of or didn’t appreciate the significance of this Marxist agitating for Iraq to be conceded to Iran. He does have a master plan after all.

    Terry Gain (f3f8a5)

  34. Bob, we gain the ability to keep Iran from blackmailing both us and Europe out of resisting their terrorist foreign policy.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. But in general, the Europeans don’t want it (including the Czech people) and as I said, they’re not without their own resources.

    I’m not an isolationist, but I never saw the appeal of the european missile shield. The fact that it still doesn’t actually work very well doesn’t do much to support the idea either.

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  36. Bob Loblaw,

    I don’t see anything in my last comment that makes your point so I’ll try again: Many people scoffed at the notion the U.S. could develop interceptors but we have, and they would have been part of the Eastern European missile defense shield. Their usefulness would have been to intercept intermediate missile launched from the Middle East toward Europe and long-range missiles aimed at America.

    Furthermore, it’s my understanding (and I believe one of my links above included supportive military statements) that the Eastern European missile defense not only would be ill-suited to pose a threat to Russia, but the U.S. offered to let Russia participate. Russia declined. Obviously that didn’t fit Russia’s goals in the region.

    In this 2008 Congressional testimony by the Director of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, he explained why we need missile defense at home and abroad. I encourage you to read the entire link but here’s one of several important points:

    It only takes one ballistic missile carrying a nuclear or biological payload to inflict catastrophic damage on a city. While we would be able to retaliate militarily for a nuclear attack against one of our cities and punish the attackers, the unthinkable loss of life and trillions of dollars in economic losses would have already been inflicted. Simply stated, would it not be better to save lives by stopping such an attack in the first place rather than to inflict punishment on the enemy after the fact?

    With missile defense, we gain another option on the spectrum of possible diplomatic and military responses to a threat or an attack, an option other than deterrence or retaliation. I believe the ability to protect against threats of coercion and actively defend our forces, friends and allies, and homeland against ballistic missiles is essential to our national safety, today and in the future.”

    The Director also said this about the European missile defense system:

    By devaluing Iran’s longer-range missile force, European missile defenses could help dissuade the Iranian government from further investing in ballistic missiles and deter it from using those weapons in a conflict. We believe the long-range defense assets we are planning to deploy to Central Europe offer the most effective capability to defeat this threat. The sensors, interceptors, and C2BMC infrastructure planned for deployment in Europe are needed to improve protection of the United States and, for the first time, extend coverage to all European NATO allies vulnerable to long-range ballistic missile attack from Iran. This work focuses on upgrade and deployment of the test bed midcourse Xband radar, currently located at the Kwajalein test site, to the Czech Republic and the establishment of an interceptor field in Poland, pending agreements with both governments.”

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  37. Back in Vietnam we knew that Russian made SAM’s were being deployed by the N.Vietnamese that could take out US fighters, which previously had relatively free access to targets. The decision was made to not “provoke” the Russians or N. Vietnamese by blowing the things up before they were operational. Instead, “we” waited until US fighters were shot down before “we” did anything about it. So much for trying to “not provoke” the Russians.

    One nuclear warhead can potentially do a whole lot more than inflict heavy casualties in one area. If used optimally to produce an electro-magnetic (EM) pulse, it can take out electrical and computer systems for one heck of a big area. Does anyone really want to see what happens when every circuit within a 750-1,000 mile radius of Pittsburgh gets fried in an instant? Everyone will wish they had stocked up on their 2 week (at least) emergency supply of food, water, and ammunition.

    Missile defense systems are needed if we are not to eventually be blackmailed. The systems in current operation may not be 100% reliable, but they are effective to a degree, and only continued efforts will improve them.

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  38. Bob Loblaw – Did you have a link showing the Czech people were against the missile defense system?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  39. With moves such as this, Obama could wind up presiding over the reunification of the U.S.S.R.

    Movements closer to the West and democracy certainly do not seem to be what Putin and his crowd have in mind. Are you seeing evidence to the contrary Bob Loblaw?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  40. I’ve seen reports that the Czechs were against installation of a missile defense shield by a 2-to-1 margin, although the Czech government claims the Russians were responsible for openly agitating public opposition.

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  41. MD, it’s not expensive to buy enough canned food to last a couple of months, and just use the older stuff as you put in the newer stuff. I don’t do that to protect myself against nuclear war so much as the weather, but it’s good advice.

    The fact that these governments went out on a limb for us, and we turned our backs on it… for nothing, is going to chill any concessions favoring our nation for decades. Obama wanted this missile shield gone as a personal decision. He’s said as much for a while. But he didn’t use that to extract anything from Russia. Why? At least don’t humiliate your allies and yourself.

    we don’t really know the full capabilities of these systems, and I suspect Iran would nuke Israel before they nuked anyone else. Will they even use a missile when they do it?

    Iran has been killing US troops for years. What are we going to do about it? Russia has been giving tyrants who want to kill our men weapons for many years. What would they say if we sold F-16s to the Chechens?

    Juan (bd4b30)

  42. #

    Obama to all Eastern European Countries – go f-ck yourselves. Watch the Russian tanks complete the conquest of Georgia, and more attempted poisonings of heads of state they deem to be “unfriendly.” What, us worry?

    Comment by Dmac — 9/17/2009 @ 10:27 am

    Yeah, there aren’t enough American dying 10,000 miles away! We need an American cop on every street corner of the world AND lower taxes!

    timb (8f04c0)

  43. “Yeah, there aren’t enough American dying 10,000 miles away! We need an American cop on every street corner of the world AND lower taxes!”

    timb – It always nice to have your comments add a dose of rationality to the conversation.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  44. DRJ @41 – Thanks for the links.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  45. Obama thought he was being slick, and changing the subject from Obamacare and the whole ACORN scandal. He thinks he’s using Putin, but who’s really being played…

    http://powip.com/2009/09/smart-power-or-the-sting/

    The only question: Is it The Hook, The Tale, or The Sting!

    Bob Reed (99fc1b)

  46. That’s an excellent link, Bob Reed. Thoroughly depressing and disappointing, but excellent. It’s Dan Collins at his best.

    And the bit about GE reminds me of Gordon Brown’s agreement to trade the Lockerbie bomber for a BP oil deal with Libya.

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  47. They cheered and cheered this douchebag in Europe. Someday they can thank his historical coward ass for the tasty fallout.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  48. wow bob wow

    That link goes to what must be the definitive round up on this subject.

    I know some have been talking about this missile shield as a defense of our allies, but POWIP reminds me that Iran already put a satellite into orbit. There’s doubt that they could get a nuke to the USA. Doubt among idiots. But since they could just as easily get a nuke to us in a boat, the important protection is not a missile system but prevention.

    What are we going to give Russia in exchange for halting Iran? We look so weak now.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  49. Spongeworthy is right – my husband is beginning his 3rd year at Fort Greely overseeing Boeing – we don’t have it right – there are major problems and they have been trying to fix them since the mid-80’s

    Mary (497517)

  50. DRJ,
    The point I thought you aptly made @#24 was that the eastern European missile shield really has no effect on Iran’s long range missile ambitions or actual attacks on the US itself – contrary to Senator Kyl’s assertion.

    I know the technology is improving, I just think there are better locations for it for the actual protection of the US – like the US itself (Hawaii seems a good spot). That’s also why my question earlier about the potential for Iran launching over the Arctic – it might be the shortest route but I kinda doubt it. And I don’t doubt the Director of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency supports it – kinda by definition. Even if you support the concept of the European missile shield, those aren’t the only (or even necessarily the best) locations for its implementation.

    And again, if Europe feels it wants or needs something of this nature, can’t they borrow the money from China and build it themselves?

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  51. Bob, I’m an american and I’m affected if Iran nukes London.

    Also, I’m affected if Iran is discouraged against building more nukes because our defenses are robust.

    I also think this location is well proven to be an effective place to block some of the nuke ability from Iran. Also, hawaii is way too far away from Iran for this style of shield to be effective there.

    It kinda seems like you might not be very familiar with the topic, my friend, but regardless, you can’t put all your eggs in one basket. And this is bad diplomacy regardless. What did we get for giving this valuable concession?

    Juan (bd4b30)

  52. Bob Loblaw:

    The point I thought you aptly made @#24 was that the eastern European missile shield really has no effect on Iran’s long range missile ambitions or actual attacks on the US itself – contrary to Senator Kyl’s assertion.

    I take it that you read the quote in my comment #24 as saying that if the Eastern European missile shield can’t stop Iran’s missiles right now, then it’s of no deterrent value?

    DRJ (a51a0e)

  53. To continue spending money on the existing missile program with all the problems that remain unresolved is insanity. #37 – what would you expect the Director of MDA to say? While they continue building their empire in Huntsville and hiring their retired military buddies and laid off contractors the issues remain. Works and re-works are a cash cow for these contractors. BTW the government not only furnishes these contractors at Greely with housing, vehicles, gasoline – they rotate them in/out on a 6 week on/off bases and pay for those flights. There is no continuity in the current contract to keep the players in place long enough to iron out the problems. The government is chasing its tail and paying over and over again for what should be fixed the first time. Is this really what you want anywhere? Another 25+ year money pit? Before we think of starting another project it would be wise for the Targets and Countermeasures group to fix and upgrade the current packages that have to be pulled out yet again,

    Mary (497517)

  54. Much of the missile defense system that would protect the US is on ships, like the ones in the pacific monitoring things when the NK’s (not the nk’s) were firing test rockets in the direction of the highway.

    Not sure why Mary thinks the project is essentially worthless, unless she has seen classified documents that the rest of us haven’t. I have no classified info, no reason/ability to, but I believe what is public which is good, but not 100%.

    What we do know is that the F-22 is available now and outclasses every other fighter on the planet. In simulations, our best pilots in our “next best” fighters are blown out of the sky in minutes, and the powers that be don’t think we need them.

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  55. Yeah, there aren’t enough American dying 10,000 miles away! We need an American cop on every street corner of the world AND lower taxes!

    Comment by timb

    I think this is a good example of how Democrats will respond to this news. They want us to all come home and hunker down under the covers because everybody knows all these world problems were caused by us being too active around the world.

    The fecklessness is what encourages Obama who has no clue about what makes the world work. He is the guy who was dismissive about his fellow Americans because they don’t speak other languages. Of course, he doesn’t speak any languages besides English and thinks Austrians speak Austrian but that is not important because he’s a Democrat and we all know they are smarter.

    Right now, the country is running leaderless, sort of like a train whose engineer has keeled over at the controls. God knows how this will turn out but it might teach Europeans to be careful of what they wish for.

    I wonder how many Iranians have any idea of the CSIS study of a possible war between Israel and Iran. The conclusion of that study is that Iran would disappear as a nation. There would also be massive destruction of Egypt and the other Arab states.

    This is the president who thinks we can run a 21st century economy on wind and solar. These people (Obama and the people who still support him) have no idea of how economies and nations work. They studied fantasy novels in college instead of math and science. They have no idea how to govern. This is an experiment in anarchy.

    I’m ordering John Derbyshire’s new book, We Are Doomed.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  56. I never said it was worthless, however; the test of Dec. 2008 and what you got in the news as successful was only half the truth.

    It is better than nothing, but 25+ years into it should be more reliable and more cutting edge into at least the 21st century for the money it has cost.

    As for the F22, we came to NC to work at Curtis-Wright on its black box and there is not lost there except for jobs in particular defense contracting states and pork from the senators pushing it.

    Mary (497517)

  57. Not sure your point about the F-22. If you are still making black boxes for it , great, but the admin and DoD seriously cut back the number to be built (far more than a 50%, but I don’t remember the details).

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  58. Sorry for the late responses – I can’t keep up with your guys’ volume 😉

    Juan: My suggestion of Hawaii was in regard to threats from China & NorK as you discussed earlier in the thread, not Middle Eastern or European/Russian threats. I know the Alaska set up can supposedly handle the Asian threats, but Hawaii would seem more strategically placed to me. Perhaps its the danger from creating a target for enemies that is the important factor here – Alaska provides a lot of area that can be targetted without potential damage to the surrounding environments; plus you get the two-fer of protection from missiles coming over the “top”. You are correct that a lot of this falls outside my areas of expertise (ha! like I have any of those!); indeed I am not a rocket scientist, nor do I play one on the internet;)

    DRJ: I’m not saying the EEMDS has no deterrent value, just none on direct attacks on the US itself – Kyl is just engaging in hyperbolic spinning there. I would think it would also create incentives to find methods that circumvent its deterrence such as long range ICBMs launched from Iran at the US over the Atlantic etc.

    My contention that the scrapped EEMDS had limited value (certainly compared to the price tag) and that those particular locations were not crucial is conceded in this critique of Obama’s decision by Max Boot (whom I’m pretty sure is a neo-con.) over at Commentary:

    The Obama administration’s decision to scrap the missile-defense sites planned for Poland and the Czech Republic is bad news. Not so much because the sites are vital to the defense of America or our allies. The administration is undoubtedly right when it says that the immediate threat posed by Iranian missiles is more short-range and that it will be a while before Iran has longer-range missiles capable of hitting Europe. Thus it makes sense to concentrate for the moment on building shorter-range missile defenses. And even longer-range sites don’t necessarily have to be located in Eastern Europe for maximum effectiveness.

    All that is true.

    He goes on to criticize the decision on line with those already put forward by Juan (& others) in this thread, but that’s a whole different issue.

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  59. There are other critiques of the decision pointing out that it was part of a defense in depth of the east coast from Iranian missiles. We are safe here in CA and AZ from NK missiles until he cancels the rest of BMD. I think it would be ironic if the Obamabots on the east coast discovered they were uniquely at risk due to this decision. I suspect the majority would have trouble finding Iran on a map.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  60. Well Mike, I would suggest that those individuals referred to in your first sentence belong in the same set as those in your last.

    As for your safety in CA, I think you can take much comfort in knowing that no one is entirely confident that North Korea could currently hit South Korea with their nuclear missile technology 😉

    Bob Loblaw (370cef)

  61. Bob Law at 59 – Remember that missiles follow Great Circle trajectories. A missile fired from NK towards San Diego passes over the Aluietian (sp) Islands and within a few hundred miles of the mainland of Alaska. It misses Hawaii by more than 2,000 miles. All other targets in the US mainland are even closer to Alaska. One can not hit any thing outside of the west coast states and parts of Arizona and New Mexico with out passing over mainland Alaska.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  62. And as to the issue of the European defense site, the great circle trajectory between Iran and Washington D.C. passes where?

    Directly across Poland. Just did a quick and dirty check from a missile base in western Iran to the DC metro area and the trajectory passes within 54 miles of Warsaw. (Tehran to Washington on the other hand passes over the eastern corner of Poland, about 166 miles from Warsaw.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  63. When the NorKor’s started really getting noisy about multi-stage, intercontinental missiles and their nuclear program, CNN led a newscast with a graphic showing the track of a NorKor missile fired at North America…
    The impact area was Sacramento CA!
    I think this was just before the Grey Davis recall, and my first thought was:
    If only it were true!
    Another prime anti-missile defense installation is on the Aleutian island of Shemya – if you can’t find it on a map, it’s way out towards the end near the International Date Line.

    AD - RtR/OS! (5b5739)

  64. Worse than Jimmy Carter? I think yes! FAILING at being a president!

    Here is a piece I wrote to commemorate this occasion:

    http://www.powderroomgraffiti.com/shout-it/obama-blows-off-eastern-europe.html

    Josephine (8580f7)

  65. Hmm, I may have killed this thread.

    The reaction of Poland and the Czech’s is telling. The really telling reaction will be the remainder of NATO. Obama has already tried to trash our relations with Great Britain with the “no special relationship” line.

    Mobile defenses based on ships sounds great, but your allies know that those ships can be ordered to return to a US mainland base at a moments notice. It does not engender a great deal of confidence in your long term intentions.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  66. I don’t think you killed anything, Have Blue. The facts as you present them are intersting and good facts to know. Most of those who are happy about the decision to pull the anti-missile systems from Europe don’t care about the facts whatever they are. Those that were for the sites to be implemented saw enough other reason, but your comments are good to know. My comment about ship based simply had to do with people saying we needed to protect ourselves first, and I was pointing out there are systems deployed that do that (using my incomplete knowledge on the subject).

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  67. Our America is not Obama’s America. The Chicago Machine is Obama’s America. Power and Arrogance are Obama’s America. We have to find a way to stop this insanity.

    Alice (476daa)


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