Health Care for Illegal Immigrants
[Guest post by DRJ]
President Obama doesn’t want Hispanics to worry about whether health care reform will insure illegal immigrants, because immigration reform will make that worry moot:
“The President, speaking at the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute Wednesday evening, said that the health care “debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country.”
White House spokesman Nicholas Shapiro, while he did not speak to the specifics of what the President’s plan for immigration reform will include, said, “The President has previously supported legislation which would require undocumented immigrants who meet a series of requirements (pay taxes, learn English, clean criminal record, pay a fine) to become legal residents and ultimately citizens.”
Under the President’s proposed health care plan, legal residents would have access to government health care.”
The Obama Administration reportedly wants to pursue immigration reform early next year, presumably because Obama has discovered how easy it is to fool, I mean, govern Americans.
— DRJ
People were already getting sick of this overhyped dirty socialist Obama person and now with him lying all the time and being all tricksy people are starting to get genuinely pissed. And the economy sucks so bad on top of everything else.
haooyfeet (6b707a) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:20 pmthat was me. I keep doing my name wrong here cause I have to fill in the name blank every time. I like illegal immigrants by the way. Good people. But they need to try and stay healthy.
happyfeet (6b707a) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:24 pmIf Bush and McCain couldn’t pus it through, what hope does Obama have? But, heck, let him try. It can only help in 2010.
Kevin Murphy (3c3db0) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:36 pmI meant “push”, but whatever.
Kevin Murphy (3c3db0) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:36 pmKevin, the first time created unintentional humor.
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (d1cc7d) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:39 pmBarry is turning out to be a uniter, after all. As in, uniting folks against him. Recall the bipartisan outcry when McCain (spit) tried to ram amnesty down our throats. Add in the general distaste for all his current policies, and the way the tide is turning and he does not have a prayer. I hope he tries it, tho.
Gazzer (22ecdc) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:39 pmpus is most appropriate……. %-)
i’ve got a plan for “immigration reform” that will be popular, everywhere but with the media and the political scumbags who are talking schise about “reform”.
round up everyone that is here illegally, regardless of their excuse, or where they are from, and send them home, no exceptions. if they have an “anchor baby”, take a sample of the kid’s DNA and tell them that when it’s 18, it can present itself at the nearest US consulate for repatriation, should it wish to. after all, it’s bad to separate children form their parents, and we want them to cherish and appreciate their native culture.
then we allow immigration under our established laws, with priority to those who actually played by the rules. anyone who was previously here illegally will have to explain in a formal hearing why we would want to let a criminal into our country to begin with.
anyone who can’t obey the laws to come into the US to begin with can’t be trusted to follow any of our laws once they are here. screw them.
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:45 pmOf course, the easiest way to steal my money and use it to pay the medical bills of illegal aliens is to make them legal aliens with a wave of the government magic amnesty wand.
I assumed that was their preferred plan all along.
But, whatever method they use…if we go to nationalized government controlled health care…illegal aliens ARE going to be covered…and everyone, including the Liar-in-Chief, knows it.
Dave Surls (19c23e) — 9/17/2009 @ 7:46 pmI don’t really know what to say… so I guess I’ll just dare you guys to actually do something about it. Not that I care either way.
Yeah. That seems about right.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 8:19 pmOh, real mature, Levi – way to add to the discussion.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 8:44 pmYou’re not the boss of me.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 8:45 pmLeviticus said:
I don’t really know what to say… so I guess I’ll just dare you guys to actually do something about it. Not that I care either way.
Yeah. That seems about right.
Good snark, but you raise an interesting point.
What should we do about it? How about obeying the laws on the books?
Most good conservatives want to help the disenfranchised, but they also don’t want to violate law to do so.
We have allowed millions of undocumented aliens to infiltrate our borders. And some or willing to let them sink or swim on their own.
I’m not one of those.
Illegal immigrants come here for a better life, I understand that. But they come here for that better life as a result of breaking the law.
So, what do we do? Afford people who live here illegally the same rights as those who work here legally?
I’m sorry, but the current leftist mantra is: “Laws matter.” But, how do you, as a progressive reconcile that?
I’ll give you a hint about what we should do: Treat people with respect and dignity.
If they live here illegally and they are sick, treat them. If they recover, send them home and allow them the opportunity to use our immigration laws to live here as useful citizens.
Otherwise, if they live here illegally, they have to go home.
And stop the sieve of our borders. Other countries do it, but they’re not considered evil.
Yeah, that seems about right. Not that I care either way.
Ag80 (592691) — 9/17/2009 @ 8:47 pmSo, the DRJ answer to this oh-so-important right wing bugaboo is?
You cannot exclude legal immigrants from healthcare, since they pay for it with their taxes and having large groups of uninsured is sorta …let’s say….counter-productive to reforming healthcare in the first place.
Secondly, the status quo in immigration cannot stand. Since it is impossible to round up all illegals and ship them out of the country (do we have to revisit this? each requires an administrative hearing; each would require detention prior to the hearing…there is no place to keep the millions of people and no way to process them. And, yes, they do require an administrative hearing, because the courts long ago ruled they had the right of procedural due process. Not to mention the family values clan getting so exciting about sending the parents of American citizens back to Mexico/keeping them in detention while those citizens are too young to care for themselves. Yeah, the plan to “round em up” doesn’t work), what is your solution DRJ?
The coolest thing about Obama’s election (besides Indiana going blue for once) is that it allows the bomb-throwing, can’t govern Right to just throw bombs and criticize without actually sitting at the table. It’s beautiful and entertaining.
For almost a decade, you people run the country into the ground (mean wages down under George, childhood poverty up, number of people with healthcare down, two foreign wars, massive tax cuts for rich folks, no regulation of the financial service sector, etc) and now y’all get to run around, frothing and claiming things are true once “A and B + C divided by D times F” happens and then pretend you have a policy answer.
Every time I wonder whether the Right actually has an idea beyond “more tax cuts” and “bomb Iran”, I find wonderful exemplars of silliness as this post. Two pressing national problems should be ignored, because otherwise some 25 dry-waller might get treatment for his back pain and, dang it, he ain’t ‘Merican enough and he don’t pay no taxes! Live free or die, right wing Joe Wilson!
timb (8f04c0) — 9/17/2009 @ 8:55 pmtimb,
I support providing emergent care to anyone who makes it to America. I don’t support making everyone legal just because they found a way to get here.
Immigration, like life, is always changing and the more the U.S. economy sinks, the more illegal immigrants are returning home because they have better job opportunities there. Thus, what you view as a “status quo in immigration [that] can’t stand” may actually be a problem that is fixing itself. Government doesn’t have to fix everything.
DRJ (a51a0e) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:02 pmAh, yes, timb – the Silly Right. Not like those exemplars of virtue, intelligence, and responsiveness we have the oh-so-good fortune to call our representatives – the Democrats! They’re wonderful, the absolute bee’s knees! So full of ideas! And dignity, and change! I mean, just look at all the change, man! It’s totally sweet! And, man-oh-man, man – can they govern, or what! They’ve really governed the shit outta this healthcare thing, huh? And did I mention all the totally sweet ideas? MAN THEY’RE SO FUCKIN’ AWESOME I JUST WISH I COULD VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN RIGHT NOW OMG I’M HYPERVENTILATING BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE SO UN-BOMBTHROWY GOVERNY AWESOME!!!!!
Grow the fuck up, man – the Democrats are the scum of the earth, and they purport to speak for you and me. Next election cycle, I’m writing in Zombie Eugene V. Debs.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:12 pmtimb – What percentage of the American public supported the last comprehensive immigration bill that was defeated in Congress? I believe it was only 21%.
Don’t try to hang immigration sloving the immigration issue soley on Republicans comrade. There are plenty of strong opinions on the issue. Nrxt time try to pack a few more straw men into your comment.
daleyrocks (718861) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:14 pmLeviticus said, again:
Ah, yes, timb – the Silly Right. Not like those exemplars of virtue, intelligence, and responsiveness we have the oh-so-good fortune to call our representatives – the Democrats! They’re wonderful, the absolute bee’s knees! So full of ideas! And dignity, and change! I mean, just look at all the change, man! It’s totally sweet! And, man-oh-man, man – can they govern, or what! They’ve really governed the shit outta this healthcare thing, huh? And did I mention all the totally sweet ideas? MAN THEY’RE SO FUCKIN’ AWESOME I JUST WISH I COULD VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN RIGHT NOW OMG I’M HYPERVENTILATING BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE SO UN-BOMBTHROWY GOVERNY AWESOME!!!!!
Grow the fuck up, man – the Democrats are the scum of the earth, and they purport to speak for you and me. Next election cycle, I’m writing in Zombie Eugene V. Debs.
OK. Have it your way. DRJ and I provided sensible responses to your post and you resorted to this.
Thanks for coming by. Thanks for the all-caps. And thanks for the coherent argument. I’m sure it convinced us all.
Ag80 (592691) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:20 pmYeah, well, you’ll figure it out in a sec.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:33 pmActually, Ag80, I think you need to re-read Leviticus’ statement.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:34 pmLeviticus, I think your time here has poisoned you. It’s only a matter of time you become a full-blown right-wing extremist terrorist misogynistic racist backwoods bubba like the rest of us.
Welcome to the dark side.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:37 pmI think not, sir – I’m just another Harvard-bashing contrarian (which, in its own way, is as American as apple pie). But I’m pretty much a real “dirty little socialist” – not like the lily-livered wishy-washy middle-ground socialism y’all attribute to Obama.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 9:56 pmI’ll hand it to you, Leviticus (only if you hand it back (it’s mine)). You are right in one thing. You are real . . . a real what, I’m not sure, but real nonetheless.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:13 pmBut seriously (or are those two commonly-used words trademarked?) Leviticus does come here honestly. Any backhanded snarky stuff must be understood within his overall honest context. He and I have our differences, to be certain, as seen by his accusation against me and my subsequent eruption a while earlier, but he does debate matters honestly.
Ag80 misunderstood Leviticus’ distaste for Obama’s actions and the snark that followed for something else. That’s how I see it, anyway.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:19 pm“I JUST WISH I COULD VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN RIGHT NOW”
Leviticus – Remember that timb had the awesome responsibility of being an election judge, so he probably did vote multiple times in helping Indiana turn blue.
daleyrocks (718861) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:36 pmFor almost a decade, you people run the country into the ground
Comment by timb
Since this thread’s topic is on illegal immigrants, and since a high percentage of them do originate from Mexico (certainly when it comes to most of the “undocumented” in California), I should point out that decades of mindless liberalism embraced by a sizeable majority of the Mexican electorate has turned Mexico into what? A beautiful, wonderful, very advanced, very well-educated, very prosperous, very stable, crime-free society?
Uh-huh. Yes, indeed.
The thing that is most pathetic and digusting about people on the left is their tendency to give cheers and hugs to the concept of encouraging and nurturing the “undocumented,” because they believe their hearts to be as precious and pure as gold. Yet when push comes to shove, and “progressives” find their local schools and community becoming a bit too — shall we say — Third Worldized, they load up the moving vans and get the hell out of there. In effect, they create a big mess and leave it for others to clean up or get bogged down in.
Mark (411533) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:36 pmWhich accusation was that (on my part)? I mean, it’s totally possible that I made some ill-advised accusation – I just don’t remember what (or when) it was.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:36 pmLeviticus: When you called my statements regarding Ted Kennedy passive-aggressive. I noted, rather boisterously, that I am up-front in what I want to say, and not side-window.
To give you info regarding my statement, you can go to my site and read my long-winded article (warning: very “religious”). I have a section devoted to accusations of hate and passive-aggressive about half-way down.
But that was then. I’m over it now. The only reason I brought up the blow-up was to diffuse someone else’s accusation that I was being disingenuous in my statement that you’re real and my overall approval of your debates.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:47 pmBy “someone else’s” I meant someone (anyone) who hadn’t posted yet, a preemptive strike.
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/17/2009 @ 10:50 pmAh. Yes. That one. Well, I’ll take your up-frontness into account in the future.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/17/2009 @ 11:08 pmLeviticus – the Democrats are the scum of the earth
Right on, brother! I’m glad you’re now a member of the GOP, because they’ve got some plans! Like . . .
Wait a minute.
Googling…
Hm.
Okay, Bing then…
.
.
Shit.
Ok, so maybe daddy’s not actually arriving just in time to save us.
Seriously, though, the problem with your ‘real’ socialism is that it requires the removal of it’s most vocal supporters – aka the scam artists – to have any chance of success.
And not even then, because people simply will try to game the system.
I’m curious. How would you change healthcare if you were the CIC?
Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/17/2009 @ 11:45 pmHonestly, Apogee, I don’t know shit about healthcare. I’m a healthy kid who’s never had to deal with the system on its own terms, because I’m still on my parents’ insurance plan. So I dunno. But my first instinct would be to say that it doesn’t seem like it would be too much of a stretch to say “Everyone goes to any doctor when they need care, pays a co-pay, doctors bill the government instead of insurance companies, and the government raises taxes on the citizenry to pay the doctors. And we cut some money out of the military budget if we need to bridge any gaps. And rich people pay disproportionately more, provided that they get to keep at least one luxury car and one Guatemalan maid… but no more cardigans tied around your necks, cut that shit out!”
Like I said, real dirty socialism.
But you’re right – socialism has rarely manifested itself as anything but a scam. It’s disheartening. But that’s why Debs and some of the early Labor socialists are pretty cool – they were real, not just looking to use socialist slogans to get to the top of the heap at the expense of everyone else. Debs once said (i just read) “I would not lead you to the promised land if I could, because if I lead you in, someone else would lead you out. You must use your head as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition.”
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/18/2009 @ 12:12 amWhen I was 19, I called myself a Conservative Republican Christian with a hint of socialism. Go figure, that combo. I had in my mind the mid-20th century Israeli kibbutzes (kibbutzim?).
The thing about socialism is, without a central benevolent figure (and only the one true God can be that figure), the whole ball of wax melts under the heat of the noon-day sun. And even with that One central benevolent figure (the one true God), socialism still rejects more than one of Jesus’ parables, such as the parable of the Talents.
Socialism is a failed idea even before it starts, and even the Bible says so (for those who value the Bible). Throughout history, wherever socialism is attempted, it fails. Communism takes its place. And despotism or unstated royal lineage or tyranny is right there to suck it all in. The end result is “we’re special; everyone else, not so much.”
And this idea that they all failed because they did it wrong is foolhardy. Free Market capitalism has succeeded everywhere it has been tried, and it has been tried in poor ways in many places.
As a wise man once said about the US’ form of government (100+ years ago), it is the worst form of government ever, except for all the other forms of government (or something to that effect).
John Hitchcock (3fd153) — 9/18/2009 @ 12:41 amJohn – Conservative Republican Christian with a hint of socialism is the tagline for the new Chanel no.5 – they’re trying to capture the whole market.
Seriously, though, the very idea of socialism is contradictory to the founder’s idea of checks and balances. This is because of the need for a central benevolent
figureauthority, which, by definition, faces no check or balance. I’ve not witnessed in my lifetime, nor have I read about, any situation whereby absolute power does not corrupt.We seem to have enough of a problem with the handling of the government as it stands now, and that’s with 535 + 1 + 9 people divvying up leadership responsibilities.
I get the gnawing suspicion that any one of the founders, if brought forward in time to the present would quickly utter the words: “Now wait just a second, you stupid fucks. This is not what we had in mind.”
It’s difficult, however, to gauge what historical figures would say about our current state of affairs, because it’s simply a different world, and our understanding of their hardships is most likely similar to their lack of understanding as to the endpoint of their endeavors.
Leviticus, I would argue that your system would be possible under a voucher type of program, allowing people to shop their health care money to the best care providers. There’s also a need for catastrophic or bleeding edge coverage that pays for critical and/or experimental care (new techniques and therapies – aka medical R&D).
Also, kudos to you also for mentioning co-pay, as I also feel that the detachment of fees and services hampers people’s understanding and appropriate utilization of the system. We don’t seem to have ‘crises’ with anything people are generally forced to shop for and purchase at their own expense – such as food.
Far more than anything, however, is the identification and elimination of the corrupt gaming of the system by the Government, Big Pharma, Insurance, Lawyers, The AMA and – seldom mentioned – some patients.
This isn’t an easy fix, but there’s definitely way too much emotional appeal to help one dimensional characterizations of the ‘poor and unfortunate’ and far too little exploration of actual problems with the system.
Don’t give up, though, because a while ago a bunch of idealist radicals put together a system that has worked pretty well. It’s not completely fair, and it’s not completely stable, but until Humans possess those qualities, it never will be.
Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/18/2009 @ 2:16 amFar more than anything, however, what is needed …
sheesh.
Good night.
Apogee (e2dc9b) — 9/18/2009 @ 2:19 amBut that’s why Debs and some of the early Labor socialists are pretty cool – they were real, not just looking to use socialist slogans to get to the top of the heap at the expense of everyone else
Agreed – but the time called for a Debs in the worst way, there was a real need for reform. And guess who jailed the famous socialist when he didn’t care for his public statements? Woody Wilson, and the guy we have now has all the makings of a serious repeat.
Dmac (a93b13) — 9/18/2009 @ 7:31 amSecondly, the status quo in immigration cannot stand. Since it is impossible to round up all illegals and ship them out of the country (do we have to revisit this? each requires an administrative hearing; each would require detention prior to the hearing…
Blah, blah, blah
Yeah, the plan to “round em up” doesn’t work), what is your solution DRJ?
Typical strawman argument; no surprise there. What you do is make enforcement of law the basis of the treatment of illegals. No one is going to turn them away from ERs. If they do not have jobs, they will go home.
The worst aspect of the whole situation is the treatment of legal immigrants who wait for many years or are turned away while illiterate peasants who have nothing to lose, flood the public facilities of southwest states and bankrupt the safety net for citizens.
These people will never be able to support themselves except at the level of unskilled labor. They wear out at age 40 and collect disability from Mexico. We send billions in federal benefits to Mexico. We are now seeing that this generation of illegals, unlike previous generations, have children and grandchildren who are not making it. This is a permanent underclass we are importing while we turn away European, African and Asian immigrants with education and aptitude.
It is a tragedy and will be expensive.
Mike K (2cf494) — 9/18/2009 @ 7:57 am“Agreed, but the time called for a Debs in the worst way, there was a real need for reform”
– Dmac
Agreed in turn, but that’s why I would take issue with John Hitchcock’s statement that “Free Market capitalism has succeeded everywhere it has been tried.” The truth is, there are some ongoing failures of free market capitalism around the world, both economic (externalities, monopolies, etc.) and moral (slave wages, dangerous working conditions, the devaluation of human dignity, etc.)… which isn’t to say that these failures are widespread, or that there’s nothing of worth to be found in capitalism – it’s just to say that the implementation of the ideology does matter when we’re talking about these things.
Which is how I would respond to Apogee: neither capitalism nor socialism is (or at least ought to be) a form of government. Each is (or ought to be) an ideology that drives our conduct at a personal and societal level. The difference is, capitalism has typically been left in this proper ideological context (where people uphold its general principles rather than trying to twist it into a form of government) and socialism, more often than not, has been treated as a form of government. But I really don’t think there’s anything incompatible between democracy (or republicanism, in the constitutional sense) and socialism, as long as it’s left as an ideology.
Just as someone can hold capitalistic values (free markets and personal entrepreneurialism) in a democratic form of government, I believe the person right next to him could hold socialistic values (care of the poor at the expense of the rich, the importance of public service, etc.) in that same democratic form of government.
Leviticus (30ac20) — 9/18/2009 @ 9:35 amI certainly hope the hell he does do something with illegals next year….right in time for the 2010 elections….heck with the “stimulus” and the Cap & Tax and some kind of montrosity in the form of “healthcare” it would be the icing on the cake of video’s for Conservatives running for office. Why I would venture to say a 120 seat turnover just based off healthcare and illegal alone. Lets see if those “fiscal” Democrats from the South go along with the President who gets paid for 2 more years while they will be going home in 2010! Should be a blast to watch.
Jaded (2dcf17) — 9/18/2009 @ 8:42 pm