Patterico's Pontifications

6/1/2009

O’Reilly Refuses to Back Down on Tiller

Filed under: Abortion,General — Patterico @ 7:10 pm



The man who murdered George Tiller committed a despicable and indefensible act. But that doesn’t mean we have to pretend that we support what Tiller did for a living. I firmly oppose most late-term abortions, which are done primarily for convenience and not for medical reasons (despite the propaganda you hear to the contrary), and I do not believe Tiller’s medical practice was a force for good. He had a right to live, but we had a right to criticize him for what he did.

I said yesterday that I wouldn’t stand for leftists blaming Bill O’Reilly for George Tiller’s death. And while I think O’Reilly acted in a high-handed, sanctimonious, and hypocritical fashion with respect to its treatment of Hot Air recently, I stand foursquare behind Bill O’Reilly’s comments here:

Where did I find this clip? Why, on Hot Air, the same site O’Reilly recently smeared.

No matter. Sometimes you have to defend people in one setting when you criticize them in another. Here, O’Reilly is 100% correct that leftists are trying to stifle criticism of late-term abortions.

I won’t be stifled. O’Reilly won’t be either. Good on him for that.

93 Responses to “O’Reilly Refuses to Back Down on Tiller”

  1. I also agree with O’Reilly. The killer had a history of extreme violent views for the past decade–it cost him his marriage. This is from the NYT, of all places.

    It’s also ironic… or something that Muslim murdered a couple of military today. Will the elites show the same concern for innocent “Christianists” as for Muslims?

    Patricia (2183bb)

  2. Again with the broad brush term “leftists?”

    If you want to avoid be lumped in with Tiller’s murderer, shouldn’t you stop blaming everyone for a few fringe commenters?

    poon (093c46)

  3. He had a right to live, but we had a right to criticize him for what he did.

    Precisely.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  4. Why, poon? So we’ll have better standards than you? Already happened.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  5. Better standards than poon is setting the bar pretty damn low.

    I cannot stand O’Reilly, but he is spot on in this one.

    We must not blame Muslims or Olberman or the Left for a Muslim shooting 2 American soldiers. /sarc

    JD (6675bb)

  6. O’reilly stated this evening that deceased Dr. Tiller made up to a $1,000,000.00 dollars in some years protecting a woman’s right to choose.

    I had no idea that he was engaged in abortion for profit.

    What a greedy capitalist.

    highpockets (4d6731)

  7. Profit is only evil for conservatives. The Left is pure of mind and spirt, their intentions are good, and one must never question their riches.

    JD (6675bb)

  8. The man who murdered George Tiller committed a despicable and indefensible act.

    I was thinking how I’d feel about the shooting if the shooter was the father of one of the children Tiller killed aborted a few days before it could be born.

    I guess if the guy was really looking forward to becoming a father, it would be hard to work up a lot of hate for him.

    Sure, we could argue that his child wasn’t a human yet, according to…I don’t know…some people, but then our outrage toward the shooter would have to come from the shooter’s inability to assimilate some medical authority’s definition of when his child was actually “his child”.

    I’m not even a partisan on one side of the abortion issue although I probably look like it after this post.

    jcurtis (baaf5f)

  9. Over at Washington Monthly, they are in tears at how Tiller saved all those thousands of women who would have died without late term abortions. The millions he made were just a coincidence.

    I deal with crooks in the workers comp system and the industrial abortionists are no better. Still, Tiller should not have been murdered and the killer seems to be conspiracy nut.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  10. Mike K – I cannot find a good figure on what percentage of partial birth abortions is done when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. Health, for the purposes of this debate, is practically meaningless. In your experience, what situations would jeopardize the life of the mother, requiring the baby’s head to be delivered, and have a tube jammed in its head to have its brain sucked out? How does a D&X protect the life of the mother in these cases?

    JD (6675bb)

  11. http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/6/1/05557/09911

    Doctor Tiller’s Admission Criteria
    “In order to offer you an appointment, we require that a physician refer you to our center. In addition, we need your genetic counselor or doctor to provide us with gestational and diagnostic information regarding your pregnancy. Over the past twenty-five years, we have had experience with pregnancy terminations in such situations as anencephaly, Trisomy 13, 18, and 21, polycystic kidney disease, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, Potter’s syndrome, lethal dwarfism, holoprosencephaly, anterior and posterior encephalocele, non-immune hydrops, and a variety of other very significant abnormalities.”

    I support what he did for a living.

    Duvel (62b020)

  12. The American Medical Association is of the opinion that there is never any medical reason for a partial birth abortion.

    I am tempted to agree. If it would be medically risky for the mother to give birth, is it not EQUALLY medically risky for the mother to give birth to the entire body except the head, at which point the skull is broken up (with the rest of the body outside the birth canal), and the brains extracted?

    But what does the American Medical Association know about medicine?

    Sir Elliot (b6e675)

  13. Duvel,

    What, precisely, do you support?

    Sir Elliot (b6e675)

  14. Trolls like duvel have been spamming that admissions thing all over the place like it means something. The “and a variety of other signficant abnormalities” is the part where it leads to concern, since that can mean practically anything. But, duvel, I asked a doctor for the medical reasons as to why having the child’s head delivered, and then having an instrument jammed in the back of his/her head to suck out its brains could protect the life of the mother. Had I wanted a recapitulation of variable admissions criteria, I would have asked for same. Dr. Tiller did not apologize for what he did, did not try to sugar coat it. Why do you?

    JD (6675bb)

  15. “What, precisely, do you support?”

    Exterminating undesirables.

    Dave Surls (af5780)

  16. Duvel…I read the last line on this link…

    Are NO late term abortions performed for frivilous reasons?

    Because, if even one is, then it should not be happening at all…..

    I am torn between whether or not abortion should be legal….being a man, I have no clue what it means to carry a child, so, I come from a different perspective. However, I’m pretty sure that if a fetus can be saved from a woman, there is a problem with just deciding to end the term because the woman feels like doing so.

    As for the reasons for late term abortions, yes, there is something to be said for carrying a child to full term with one of those conditions….

    But, those are not the only reasons late term abortions occur, are they???

    reff (ee9f7a)

  17. No, reff. It was being aggressively dishonest.

    JD (6675bb)

  18. I don’t think this O’Reilly person would be as brave about standing up for his beliefs as the abortionist guy was, day after day, in the face of a lot of very real adversity involving bullets and such. And also it’s goofyheaded for the multimillionaire O’Reilly who makes many many millions of dollars a year to gasp and point at the abortionist guy what made “over a million dollars a year” I think. He had sort of a risky job, no?

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  19. “Why, poon? So we’ll have better standards than you? Already happened.”

    I don’t think so SPQR.

    There’s no difference between saying:

    “Leftists are trying to stifle criticism of late-term abortions.”

    “Conservatives are gunning down their political opponents.”

    Both are overly broad, inaccurate statements.

    If you have a problem with what someone is saying, call them out singularly.

    poon (093c46)

  20. “Trolls like duvel have been spamming that admissions thing all over the place like it means something.”

    It means they exterminate undesirables. Kid with spina bifida is undesirable, so they kill it. Kid with hydrocephalus is undesirable, so they kill it. Kid is a Jew, that’s undesiable, so they kill it.

    Oh…that was the Nazis that did that last one, not abortionists. Sometimes I mix those two up.

    Dave Surls (af5780)

  21. Also that tie.

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  22. “O’reilly stated this evening that deceased Dr. Tiller made up to a $1,000,000.00 dollars in some years protecting a woman’s right to choose.

    I had no idea that he was engaged in abortion for profit.”

    As if his practice was just abortions.

    imdw (6eb217)

  23. “As if his practice was just abortions.”

    Well, you could say his clinic delivered babies too. Sure, they were all dead, but technically they were delivered.

    Dave Surls (af5780)

  24. “Leftists are trying to stifle criticism of late-term abortions.”

    “Conservatives are gunning down their political opponents.”

    Both are overly broad, inaccurate statements

    poon – You had one fringe loony ex-con anarchist act alone to kill an abortionist. Equating that to all conservatives is overly broad. On the other hand you have Huffington Post, the NY Daily News, MSNBC, Daily Kos, Booman Trib and a horde of others trying to shut down Fox News and stifle criticism of abortion. I don’t think that makes the other statement overly broad, do you?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  25. Duvel…I read your links…..and yes, some of these things you’ve listed in your link are serious defects….some of the defects are even fatal in a majority of the cases….

    Trisomy 21…Down’s Syndrome…

    Didn’t we have an actor on a television show several years ago have Down’s Syndrome???

    Don’t DS children live till their 40’s???

    Polycystic kidney disease…a disease that causes kidney failure over the LONG TERM OF LIFE, so that transplants are required later in life……but the person can live a normal existance, with treatment….

    So, we’ll kill a person who can live a normal life with the treatments we have at our disposal today…..

    People of note born with spina bifida:

    Jade Calegory, actor, best known for his role as the disabled main character in Mac and Me.
    Lucy Coleman, from the children’s TV show Signing Time!
    James Connelly, U.S. Paralympian, 2006 Bronze Medal Winner; Sledge Hockey
    Jean Driscoll,[26] Olympian and eight-time Boston Marathon winner
    Aaron Fotheringham, U.S. wheelchair skateboarder
    Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson, Welsh Paralympian
    Lawrence Gwozdz, U.S. saxophonist
    Blaine Harrison,[27] of the British band Mystery Jets
    Robert Hensel, Guinness world record holder
    Rene Kirby,[28] U.S. actor in films such as Shallow Hal and Stuck on You
    John Mellencamp,[29] U.S. rock and roll musician
    Dr. Karin Muraszko,[30] chair of Department of Neurosurgery at University of Michigan, first female appointed to position in the country
    Reba Schappell, conjoined twin and country music musician
    Bobby Steele, U.S. punk rock guitarist and songwriter
    Jeffrey Tate, British conductor
    Dale Tryon, Baroness Tryon, Australian socialite and friend of Prince Charles
    Hank Williams, U.S. country music singer
    Lucinda Williams,[31] U.S. country music singer/songwriter
    Miller Williams,[31] U.S. poet
    Justin Yoder, U.S. soap box racer

    Thanks God that their mothers didn’t meet Dr. Tiller….

    Hydrocephalus is detectable during prenatal ultrasound examinations.

    Usually, hydrocephalus does not cause any intellectual disability if recognized and properly treated. A massive degree of hydrocephalus rarely exists in typically functioning people, though such a rarity may occur if onset is gradual rather than sudden.[4]

    Damage to the developing nervous system is a major cause of chronic, disabling disorders and, sometimes, death in infants, children, and even adults. The degree to which damage to the developing nervous system harms the mind and body varies enormously. Many disabilities are mild enough to allow those afflicted to eventually function independently in society. Others are not. Some infants, children, and adults die, others remain totally disabled, and an even larger population is partially disabled, functioning well below normal capacity throughout life.

    So, Cephalic disorders are not always fatal, and can even be treated with prognosis to a normal life….

    Hydrops fetalis…The treatment depends on the cause.

    Severely anemic fetuses can be treated with blood transfusions while still in the womb.

    This one can even be treated BEFORE DR. TILLER gets started…..so, it can be avoided even before birth…

    I’m sure glad that your link was an effective set of points in your discussion about whether or not late term abortions are a solid idea….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  26. I knew that JD….but I am trying to have the discussion in a logical and respective light, as noted in my second response to Durel….

    Thank you for not condemning me….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  27. Trust me. OBGYN’s don’t make that kinda money unless they are doing a LOT of abortions…

    Well, they might in NYC or Beverly Hills, but in KS? Not hardly.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  28. some of the defects are even fatal in a majority of the cases

    They were fatal in all of the cases once the decision was made to go visit Dr. Tiller.

    JD (6675bb)

  29. You’re correct JD….and the entire point of that posting was to show that it didn’t have to be that way….

    Look at the Spina Bifida “sufferers” and notice how many are doing just fine….

    Yet, under Durel’s concepts, ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE NON-EXISTANT…..

    reff (ee9f7a)

  30. Sorry Duvel…spelled your name wrong on my last post…

    reff (ee9f7a)

  31. NPR also thinks that the abortionist guy was killed by rhetoric.

    It’s exactly that kind of rhetoric, says Keenan, that can prompt people to action. Indeed, news reports say that 51-year-old Scott Roeder, who has been charged with Tiller’s shooting, had suggested to friends that lethal force was an acceptable way to protect unborn children.

    “If they truly abhor the violence their rhetoric is encouraging, then they need to stop using the inflammatory phrases to describe the people they don’t agree with,” Keenan said. “And until then, I think their claims of the shock of Dr. Tiller’s murder rings very hollow.”

    ohnoes I think there’s a non sequitur in that first paragraph. Let me read it again. Yup. Now it’s just sitting there looking at me.

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  32. I was just being my nasty sarcastic self, reff. I got what you were saying. Do not expect an honest response from duvel, or any other for that matter. They have their talking points, and your rhetoric caused this murder, and your hate will be responsible for the next. Just ask NPR.

    JD (6675bb)

  33. oh. Looks like NPR’s rhetoric is encouraging a little hateyness in the comments…

    These domestic terrorists must be held accountable for what they are doing: encouraging mentally disturbed zealots to commit murder so that they can win by terrorism what they cannot win at the polls. They know the affect of constantly ranting about the “murderers”. This is totally unacceptable in a free society. The Christian Taliban must be stopped.

    Stopped how you ask? The same way we stop the regular Taliban I’d imagine.

    NPR, hate radio for teh people.

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  34. The lefties claimed the same thing about the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995: it was the fault of talk radio.

    Steverino (1b3695)

  35. reff,
    And can you speak to the cases of the women treated by Dr. Tiller and the severity of each? And do you say that these decisions should not be left to the pregnant woman and her doctor, but to the state?

    And are you among the approx. 27% of the population who thinks abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape or incest?
    http://www.themonkeycage.org/2009/05/has_the_public_become_more_opp.html
    But Tiller is a “Nazi” He’s like “Al Qaeda.” He’s evil.
    Everyone is shallow and morally lazy.. And yet you think we should all be allowed to carry guns everywhere? The state should leave us alone. but be allowed in the bedroom?
    Abortions are really fun. They should be made illegal, like marijuana, otherwise everyone would want one.
    Tragedies happen in life. And people make mistakes. But at some point the state is obliged to treat us as adults, even though sometimes we aren’t.
    The degree to which the right in this country wants to punish people for their stupidity in some ways while indulging them in others, never ceases to amaze me.

    Duvel (b1153c)

  36. “I don’t think that makes the other statement overly broad, do you?”

    Yes I do, daley.

    You didn’t have any problem listing the offending sites.

    Patterico wouldn’t either.

    poon (093c46)

  37. You care about fetuses more than you care about children.
    That’s the shame of it.

    Duvel (b1153c)

  38. But a Muslim killing a serviceman in cold blood is prolly Bush’s fault.

    JD (6675bb)

  39. Sounds like Duvel is amazed like almost non-stop. I bet that makes for a long day but then I’m jaded.

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  40. “You didn’t have any problem listing the offending sites”

    poon – That’s what makes it not overly broad, moron.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  41. Comment by Duvel — 6/1/2009 @ 9:06 pm

    non sequiturs r us

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  42. What did I tell you, reff ?

    You care about fetuses more than you care about children.

    Really? Really! This is even more than I suspected from you. Besides the blizzard of strawpeople, and the arguing with positions not held, I did not expect you to start spouting bumperstickers. I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve, and more respect than you warrant.

    JD (6675bb)

  43. Has anyone ever seen poon and Duvel in the same place together?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  44. No, Duvel, I can’t…

    Neither can you….neither can any of the women who had the abortions performed, because none of us can see into the future….

    And, yes, I have a feeling that the state, in order to protect the innocent child, might need to get involved in a case of spina bifida, where there is just as much chance of a normal life as there is of a death after birth….

    I believe the state has a purpose to protect the innocent….

    As for incest, rape…again, not being a woman, I can’t even consider what that must mean to that person….but I can speak for an unborn who, through no fault of their own, is to be born with a treatable disease, who is terminated….

    You choose not to speak for anyone unborn….

    Finally….I’ve never said that Dr. Tiller was anything but a doctor…I didn’t call him any name at all….I have, however, debated your points, and have said that there are some of YOUR examples that should probably not be abortions….

    I have said that some of the defects you discussed are fatal in many cases, and I can accept that….

    Why can’t those children be carried to their death?

    If they are going to die anyway, why not just let them die?

    P.S….you have never EVER seen me say that abortion should be banned in all cases, nor have you seen me say that they should be banned in some cases, nor have you seen me say they should be allowed in any case….I am very torn as to the answers to those questions….

    But, what about those who can live? Who are we to say they should not??? You worry about the state getting involved, and I worry that individuals who say “just fu*K it, I’ll get the abortion” without considering that some of them might have decent lives….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  45. JD, as usual, you are correct…and I know you were only being sarcastic….

    Yet, I still have hope that Duvel will understand that it is not about the fetus, that it is about the person the fetus becomes…

    The same decision his own mother made….the one she may even have made with knowledge that he may/may not have been defected, deformed…..

    See, he can’t see past the idea that maybe the fetus will be defective, deformed….

    I can only see that the fetus becomes the person Duvel is….living, breathing, maybe even successful….

    And, even with that, I’m still not sure that abortions should not be allowed….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  46. “poon – That’s what makes it not overly broad, moron.”

    So it’s okay to impugn millions of people based on the actions of a few, daley?

    So you have no problem, say, judging everyone in the U.S. military based on the actions of the guards at Abu Ghraib?

    poon (093c46)

  47. As our host notes, it is not proper to take the law into your own hands. However, the killer has spared the People of Kansas another legal battle to shut down this despicable wart on the face of medicine – and to end his barbaric practice – and I find it difficult to generate any outrage over his demise.

    AD - RtR/OS! (465dbd)

  48. poon – Why do you insist on being so f#cking dishonest. You and your fellow travelers have spent literally years smearing the military and Bush with the actions of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib, and you have the temerity to act as though that has not been happening, or that we have not seen it happen here, repeatedly?

    JD (6675bb)

  49. reff – Serious questions, and worthy of serious discussion. I wish I was wrong about these things, but they are as predictable as a Grand Kleagle being the most Senior Dem Senator.

    JD (6675bb)

  50. “spent literally years smearing the military and Bush with the actions of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib”

    Sounds like you and your ilk endorse such behavior, JD.

    poon (093c46)

  51. So do I, JD….and on this subject, I’ll err on the side of life….as I did with my own Daughter, who is vibrant and beautiful….but we didn’t know that on September 30, 1984…..

    reff (ee9f7a)

  52. Poon, you have a question waiting for you in the GM bankruptcy thread. I suggest you answer it.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  53. You are such a dishonest lying little fucking waste of sperm, poon. Patterico, I apologize for cursing but these vile little fuckers have infested every one of your threads, except for the one about a US serviceman killed by a Muslim who was suspected of ties to terrorists, and Teh One letting the New Black Panthers off. They have been batshitfuckingcrazy for weeks now, and have inhibited almost every attempt at rational discussion of issues. They are fucking dishonest when they are on their good behavior, and as they have demonstrated today, dishonest would be an improvement for them.

    JD (6675bb)

  54. reff – I became an uncle in the very recent past, to a beautiful tiny little girl who was born 9 weeks early. Anyone that would have viewed her as anything other than a person … well, I just don’t know what to think. I do not get it.

    JD (6675bb)

  55. Just so you know, poon, I responded to your overt and scurilous lie, but it appears to be in moderation. Suffice it to say that what you said is a f*cking lie, and you are a f*cking liar.

    JD (6675bb)

  56. “So it’s okay to impugn millions of people based on the actions of a few, daley?”

    poon – I’ve cited more than a few and if you read the comments at the sites, include those folks. I could easily cite a dozen more sites as you well know. Do you always comment this dishonestly or are you making a special effort today?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  57. He did manage to promulgate some distortions about late-term abortions, even making the definition of that fungible in his segment on the subject. He did not address the the realities in an honest way. But, hey, it’s O’Reilly.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  58. poon – Why don’t you point out some lefty sites which are not blaming conservatives, just for shits and giggles.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  59. Sarah, I’d love for you to detail those accusations, as I keep missing (on purpose) the Factor…

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  60. And, I have two young relatives, a cousin and a niece, both of who, while their physical bodies leave alot to be desired, their spirits are incredible, and they bring us much more love than we could ever give to them….

    I’ll err on the side of life….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  61. “poon – I’ve cited more than a few and if you read the comments at the sites, include those folks. I could easily cite a dozen more sites as you well know. Do you always comment this dishonestly or are you making a special effort today?”

    Daley, your best guess, how many “leftists” are there in America? At least as many as there are members of the U.S. military?

    How many guards were at there Abu Ghraib? Certainly a bigger number than the five sources you cited above.

    And I take your saying they’re trying to “shut down Fox News” as a joke…you’re not Truther level crazy, are you?

    poon (093c46)

  62. I missed this up front:
    “I firmly oppose most late-term abortions, which are done primarily for convenience and not for medical reasons ”
    You’re going back and forth here and in your older post from late term abortions to ID&E which is one method. But it is a method that is safer. And it is sometimes necessary, something you’ve denied in the past. Sometimes it saves lives
    http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2046/
    But you oppose abortion so you oppose safer abortions.
    That’s your logic in arguing against ID&X.

    Also, not having the money, or being in a bad relationship or being afraid to tell your partner are real reasons. And wasn’t it Alito who argued for mandatory spousal notice?
    Alito: “it appears clear that an undue burden may not be established simply by showing that a law will have a heavy impact on a few women but that instead a broader inhibiting effect must be shown.”
    I found that on one of your posts.
    On the other had we have this
    “The proper focus of constitutional inquiry is the group for whom the law is a restriction, not the group for whom the law is irrelevant.”
    Well, Duh. Alito says it’s an undue burden only on a small number of women in the worst possible situations, an abusive partner, so it’s not really an undue burden.
    I wonder why his logic didn’t carry the day?

    Duvel (62b020)

  63. liberals don’t have any more pain or sorrow for the
    60,000 babies killed than they have for the hundreds of thousands of men,women,and children killed by Saddam Hussein.
    Those deaths don’t help them politically so they don’t matter.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  64. Well done, Mr. O’Reilly…

    I was wondering how Bill O’Reilly would address those who are blaming him for George Tiller’s murder, and I think he did a great job:

    H/T: Patterico.
    ……

    The Skepticrats (2f90ed)

  65. Patterico, the prolife movement is over. Prolife sentiment was trending up in the polls, and Obama opened a door on compromise, even though 68% of the country still supports Roe.
    Scott Roeder just slammed that door.
    You see….the mask slipped.
    The real face of the prolife movement isn’t thoughtful, intelligent Ross Douthat…..the real face of the prolife movement is classic terrorist Scott Roeder.
    On behalf of the prochoice everywhere, I want to thank prolifers for the reality check.
    You’re done.
    By the time this blows over (about when Obama finishes his second term), we have functional human ectogenesis.
    What will you have to get outraged! about when we can just drop aborted fetuses into our swell new BeneTleilax host-womb-vats and gestate them to term, horrific terminal genetic anomalies and all.
    Ain’t Science grand?

    wheeler's cat (d3f439)

  66. I simply love the arrogance.

    Obama is just over 4 months in, and the cat is proclaiming 92 more months to go.

    Pride goeth before the fall, and all that.

    Dr. K (eca563)

  67. Nothing on the Times whitewashing yet another Tony V affair with a reporterette?

    Gerry (fad653)

  68. Dr K – wheeler’s mengele is really a scary monster.

    Duvel – Ramble often?

    JD (d6df01)

  69. I think apathy is a lot more regnant that nishi allows. Pro-life pro-choice abortion anti-abortion blah blah blah I think. In Barack Obama’s corrupted and debased dirty socialist America what is grounded in despair and thuggery, I think you’ll be harder and harder pressed to foreground the foetuses and such in the politics of our little country. We’ve lost that sort of luxury and we don’t have it no mores I don’t think.

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  70. oh. that was to be *than* nishi allows but I typed the wrong letter is what happened

    happyfeet (2d133f)

  71. You care about fetuses more than you care about children.
    That’s the shame of it.

    Comment by Duvel

    What’s interesting here is the assumption that a fetus is not a child. This is a mental defect and you would have been well advised to stay away from Tiller as almost any mental defect was enough for him. The most common indication for abortion in China is female sex of the fetus. Is that a defect, too ?

    Mike K (2cf494)

  72. Patterico, that “convenience” slur is a distortion of what constitutes a “medical reason”. Why do people refuse, honoroble people, to deal with this issue honestly?

    For example, an abortion for fetal abnormality is treated as an act of “convenience” because the definition of what constitutes “medical reason” is defined improperly.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  73. So who is to blame for firing up the Muslim convert who shot two soldiers in Arkansas (killing one and injuring the other)? Can we pin tht on the left? Sullivan-Maracotte-Hamsher party your table is ready…today’s special is false outrage.

    Everyone, virtually everyone, denouces Tiller’s murder. The person to blame is the person who did this crime.

    Joe (17aeff)

  74. Duvel,
    Your source on IDX referred to Trisomy 13 fetuses as having “no hope of survival.” Yet in a few seconds on Google, I found this. There are others.

    No matter what your views on abortion, if you wish to be taken seriously here, you need to do a better job of vetting your sources.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  75. Wow! Did you know the term, “late-term abortion” is “controversial“?

    Actually, the context in the caption later on clarifies that the procedure is controversial, but that’s a case of sloppy writing. Speaking of sloppy, notice that the caption information is duplicated. Oh, it’s just the Web . . . the print edition is the real paper.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  76. Reff, I don’t want to be sarcastic or rude to someone who values life and wants to protect it.

    I think your understanding of the medical issues displayed, however, is a perfect example of why you and others like you shouldn’t control medical decisions in complicated pregnancy.

    These decisions and evaluations of risk vs outcome need to be made by the women involved, in real time, in light of their highly individual circumstances and according to conscience.

    Calling induced abortions, especially those after 16 weeks with complications “convienient” is the most bitter malaprop I can think of for the situation. It may be less risky that proceeding to a term delivery, but it is no easy out of pain, risk or loss.

    To your specific question – women are at greater risk in pregnancies where there is a high rate of fetal demise. Intrauterine death is not a benign condition, and women can become severely ill, and be disabled or die.

    Obstetric complications are higher as well. They may not labor and deliver normally, may require interventions that raise risks of injury and mortality. An early termination will spare obstetric risks from uterine inversion, uterine rupture, tearing that can result in nerve damage or adjacent structures and organs, including fistulas…etc etc.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  77. Reff, I don’t want to be sarcastic or rude to someone who values life and wants to protect it.

    I think your understanding of the medical issues displayed, however, is a perfect example of why you and others like you shouldn’t control medical decisions in complicated pregnancy.

    These decisions and evaluations of risk vs outcome need to be made by the women involved, in real time, in light of their highly individual circumstances and according to conscience.

    Calling induced abortions, especially those after 16 weeks with complications “convienient” is the most bitter malaprop I can think of for the situation. It may be less risky that proceeding to a term delivery, but it is no easy out of pain, risk or loss.

    To your specific question – women are at greater risk in pregnancies where there is a high rate of fetal demise. Intrauterine death is not a benign condition, and women can become severely ill, and be disabled or die.

    Obstetric complications are higher as well. They may not labor and deliver normally, may require interventions that raise risks of injury and mortality. An early termination will spare obstetric risks from uterine inversion, uterine rupture, tearing that can result in nerve damage or adjacent structures and organs, including fistulas…etc etc.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  78. Reff, I don’t want to be sarcastic or rude to someone who values life and wants to protect it.

    I think your understanding of the medical issues displayed, however, is a perfect example of why you and others like you shouldn’t control medical decisions in complicated pregnancy.

    These decisions and evaluations of risk vs outcome need to be made by the women involved, in real time, in light of their highly individual circumstances and according to conscience.

    Calling induced abortions, especially those after 16 weeks with complications “convienient” is the most bitter malaprop I can think of for the situation. It may be less risky that proceeding to a term delivery, but it is no easy out of pain, risk or loss.

    To your specific question – women are at greater risk in pregnancies where there is a high rate of fetal demise. Intrauterine death is not a benign condition, and women can become severely ill, and be disabled or die.

    Obstetric complications are higher as well. They may not labor and deliver normally, may require interventions that raise risks of injury and mortality. An early termination will spare obstetric risks from uterine inversion, uterine rupture, tearing that can result in nerve damage or adjacent structures and organs, including fistulas…etc etc.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  79. Reff, I don’t want to be sarcastic or rude to someone who values life and wants to protect it.

    I think your understanding of the medical issues displayed, however, is a perfect example of why you and others like you shouldn’t control medical decisions in complicated pregnancy.

    These decisions and evaluations of risk vs outcome need to be made by the women involved, in real time, in light of their highly individual circumstances and according to conscience.

    Calling induced abortions, especially those after 16 weeks with complications “convienient” is the most bitter malaprop I can think of for the situation. It may be less risky that proceeding to a term delivery, but it is no easy out of pain, risk or loss.

    To your specific question – women are at greater risk in pregnancies where there is a high rate of fetal demise. Intrauterine death is not a benign condition, and women can become severely ill, and be disabled or die.

    Obstetric complications are higher as well. They may not labor and deliver normally, may require interventions that raise risks of injury and mortality. An early termination will spare obstetric risks from uterine inversion, uterine rupture, tearing that can result in nerve damage or adjacent structures and organs, including fistulas…etc etc.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  80. Brother Bradley, I realize you were making a bitter joke, but the term is controversial because it is not used consistently to describe the same thing. Some call any induced abortion after 12 weeks a late term abortion, some only those after 24 weeks.

    This graphic from today’s Wapo via Guttmacher institute shows a breakdown of percentages ( with a caveat I don’t know the specific sources from which this data was derrived) showing abortions after 21 weeks constituting about 1.1 percent of all induced abortions.

    OReilly never acknowleged the procedure itself is rare, when when noted that “rarely is it necessary to save the life of the mother” ( also exluding cases where it preserves the health of the mother). It’s not common.

    However, if you refer to all abortions after 12 weeks as “late term”, it would be possible to distort various reasons they are resorted to, to create a picture that maternal health and fetal complications are not an issue.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  81. Well, Duh.

    You have a question that you have yet to answer, from the earlier thread – may I refresh your memory, or were you running away from it as fast as your legs could skittle away?

    Mike I read the first page of the documentation you supplied, but I have to think you didn’t.
    And also what where the administrative costs before and after her introduction of the internal market?

    Thank you for showing us all what an expert you are. Now, it’s your turn. Explain fund holding and you could even explain the similarities and differences between Spain, Germany and the NHS.

    Go ahead. You are obviously more knowledgeable than I am. Let’s see what you have to say ?

    What were the administrative costs before and after ? I’ll bite. Show us your expertise.

    comment by Mike K.

    Let’s see your work – now.

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  82. 🙂

    The Emperor (09c9e3)

  83. Who would ever want to stifle you, Patterico? You don’t make inflamatory statements. You don’t make wild accusations. When you take issue with someone you do it on a logical and rational basis. And much as I may disagree with you over one thing or another neiter I — nor any rational person of the left — can possibly accuse you of shouting fire in a crowded theater.

    The same can’t be said of Bill O’Reilly.

    David Ehrenstein (a42e9d)

  84. What’s so amusing or ironic about the fangirl (?) comments from “wheeler’s cat” is this:

    “..BeneTleilax host-womb-vats…”

    For the folks who have read the endless post-Frank Herbert follow ups to Dune, I sure wouldn’t use technology developed on Tleilaxu for much of anything. After all, these were the folks who “made” Piter De Vries.

    And as for ectogenesis, the “axolotl tanks” of the Tleilaxu used for that purpose were in fact (from our good friend Wikipedia, and accurate from my own reading of the endless Dune series):

    “…An axlotl tank is essentially a brain-dead woman whose womb is used as a tank to create gholas. The Bene Tleilax’s use of their women in this capacity explains why no one has ever seen a Tleilaxu female…”

    Hmm. Again, when “wheeler’s cat” talks about this subject, I go back to Inigo Montoya’s commentary on word usage.

    Eric Blair (5a226d)

  85. Eric Blair – ‘wheeler’s cat’ has many of the same idiosyncrasies that DCSCA possessed. The mask may indeed be slipping.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  86. Sarah W….while I do appreciate what you have written, and do understand to my limited knowledge that many of these pregnancies are high risk, it is also important to know that many of the high risks are also containable within limits, and the loss of a perfectly good child is the possible result of the abortion.

    I didn’t make any comments about complications or inducing abortions.

    I do, however, know this: my beautiful wife had no complications in her pregnancy while carrying my perfectly healthy daughter….yet she almost died in childbirth….an artery burst….all pregnancies carry risk to both the mother and the child….

    Yet, many of the children who are aborted could have normal lives….and that is a problem for the state, who should be in the business of protecting the innocent when possible….

    And, I’ll again state that I have not expressed any opinion here about whether or not abortion should or should not be allowed all cases….

    reff (ee9f7a)

  87. Sarah…I see where your comment about “convienence” came from, and I see it was not me…I understand now what you were writing…

    In response to that, I go back to my post on this string about abortions for Spina Bifida, where the list of successful people is long, and many live completely normal lives….

    Had those children been aborted because of the fetal abnormality, how do you consider that this could only be for the convienence of the mother, or their perception of the convienence of the future life of the child?

    I agree that any woman who makes this decision is struggling with her own personal truths, yet, if this woman making this decision is told the simple facts, that some of these children will live normal lives, and aborts anyway, what could be their legitimate reasoning?

    reff (ee9f7a)

  88. “…An axlotl tank is essentially a brain-dead woman whose womb is used as a tank to create gholas.”

    So, if I want to make a ghola all I need is an axlotl tank and Helen Thomas?

    Dave Surls (dada03)

  89. Exactly why was Tillman’s execution in any way offensive. Perhaps it was the fact that he was a greedy capitalist who made a million dollars annually by allowing women to control their bodies by sucking the brains out of infants? Perhaps it was removing such a successful hitman from the tax roles? Perhaps it was removing such a wonderful doctor who swore to do no harm from his wonderful practice?

    Exactly who will shed a tear for this wonderful man?

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  90. Dave, Helen Thomas is the ghola!

    Eric Blair (5a226d)

  91. “…An axlotl tank is essentially a brain-dead woman whose womb is used as a tank to create gholas.”

    So, if I want to make a ghola all I need is an axlotl tank and Helen Thomas?

    If you want a brain-dead woman, I’d go for Paris Hilton. She’ll last longer than Helen Thomas, and is slightly better looking.

    Steverino (69d941)

  92. Before I say anything, I want you to know I am a conservative and believe in most individual rights and tend to think that abortion is a form of killing.
    One thing I want you all to consider. If a woman is going to use abortion as a means of birth control, why would she wait so late in a preganacy to have an abortion?
    You also must think of women who make the decision to have an abortion at this point in their pregnancy. They have been counseled by professionals based upon their medical problems. Most women faced with genetic problems, have a pregnancy that is intended and wanted. It must be the hardest decision to make for the parents to have their child aborted. I have talked to many genetic counselors who have referred their patients to Dr. Tiller. All of their patients were treated with the utmost respect and passion in the time of great importance.
    Another thing to remember, Doctors and anyone in this great country should not be barred from making profit. No one should be expected to perform services for free.
    One last thing to remember, even if you think that Dr. tiller was killing these unborn children, he should not be killed. He has the same rights as anyone and will be judged for his sins (if God deems it) when he dies.

    Jim (6b4c5a)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1971 secs.