Caterpillars!
Torture is, once again, being debated online. Last night, riffing off recent revelations that the U.S. had considered putting a terrorist in a box with caterpillars:
Justice Department lawyers said the CIA could place Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box. Because Zubaydah appeared afraid of insects, they also authorized interrogators to place him in a box and fill [the] box with caterpillars (that tactic ultimately was not used).
Allahpundit got all Jim Treacher on us and let loose with a stream of Twitter posts that I think deserve to be collected in one place:
You know who’s really upset about the caterpillar? The charred piece of my cousin’s ribcage found in the WTC rubble.
If I’m ever in a skyscraper that’s collapsing bc it’s been hit by a jet, remember: No putting caterpillars on people in *my* name.
One thing about torture that keeps me up at night is reprisals. What if AQ captures a U.S. soldier and puts him in a box with a caterpillar?
Do we really want religious fanatics thinking it’s okay to put caterpillars on people? Where does it end?
The caterpillar thing is actually a source of comfort when you think about it. Sure, Danny Pearl was beheaded. But — no caterpillar.
I used to have nightmares about diving face first off the roof of a burning skyscraper. Now I have nightmares about caterpillars.
I just hope our guys are being trained to resist caterpillars. Oh, and having their heads caught off on tape for jihadi porn.
As for me, with the recent revelation of memos that claim that a plot to fly airplanes into buildings in Los Angeles was disrupted by waterboarding KSM, the question is simple:
Waterboard the scum who planned the death of 3000 Americans?
or
Let thousands more die?
If you have a tough time answering that question, there’s something wrong with you.
From caterpillars on terrorists may the butterflies of peace spring.
At least it’s not freaking snakes on a plane!
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 8:59 pmDidn’t Rachel Corrie have a run-in with a Caterpillar?
Official Internet Data Office (207271) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:03 pmPatterico, I hate to say this, but I believe that we will have something unpleasant happen in our near future, and then the current Administration will do everything and more over which they excoriated the Bush Administration….
But it will be okay, because the Administration isn’t headed by GW Bush, and because people with “D”s after their names said it was a “muscular and necessary response to the threat against innocent citizens.”
I wish I was wrong, but I do not think I am.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:09 pmThe Obama Administration will take the sternest measures possible to defend the US against the scourge of right-wing extremists, such as all of us who comment here.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:12 pmEric Blair, It seems to me that every time a terrorist bomb killed Americans anywhere in the world during the last Democrat administration they turned on the American people rather than the terrorists.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:14 pmI fear Brother Fikes is correct.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:15 pmWe have to draw the line somewhere. First it will be caterpillars. Next thing we’ll hear about butterflies! Oh, the horror. What kind of people have we become?
ManlyDad (506a95) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:16 pmThis entire ‘debate’ is like watching the world from a morally inverse universe.
What kind of cesspool “morality” puts thousands of people at risk of horrible death in order to make certain that a man is not deprived of sleep? In order to avoid temporarily frightening one man of drowning?
This is morality stood upon its head. For those willing to let the innocent die, I want no part of such twisted morality in my country.
I’d like to see a formal thank you letter that people could sign, expressing our appreciation to those who stuck their necks out and interrogated the terrorists so that the innocent would live.
DaMav (5df721) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:19 pmFirst they used caterpillars, and I said nothing. Then they used butterflies, and I said nothing. Then, they used demonic midget clowns ….
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:24 pm#2 – Thread winner!
Perfectsense (0922fa) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:25 pmFirst they used caterpillars…and I said nothing. Then they used butterflies…and I said nothing.
danebramage (700c93) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:30 pmThen they used really, really big butterflies…still I said nothing. Finally, they came for me…and the guy talked, because I stuck my big ol’ Kay-Bar right up his nostril and threatened to push it out his ear.
At night, the ice weasels come …
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:35 pmMaybe we are looking at this the wrong way. Caterpillars don’t sound like much. It might depend on the caterpillar…and the moth into which it develops:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/10/081027-vampire-moth-evolution-halloween-missions.html
Now, imagine a terror suspect in a room full of those!
Torture? Or simply being kind to one of God’s creations?
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:40 pmAs for me, with the recent revelation of memos that claim that a plot to fly airplanes into buildings in Los Angeles was disrupted by waterboarding KSM, the question is simple:
Waterboard the scum who planned the death of 3000 Americans? or Let thousands more die? If you have a tough time answering that question, there’s something wrong with you.
Odd assertion. You may want to look in the mirror for something wrong, especially if you’re part of our legal system, as ‘waterboarding’ is torture, outlawed and illegal for a century. And the United States ‘does not torture.’
If ignoring the rule of law and parsing a position that only certain officials should be held accountable for their actions while others were ‘just following orders’ , then there may be something wrong with you. And a lot of Japanese and Nazi war criminals were unfairly prosecuted– and executed. Sometimes the rule of law can be a real pain in the butt, can’t it.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:40 pmA succession of asspulls from ASPCA.
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:47 pmDCSCA: How can something approved by congress be considered illegal? They write the laws, so if they fund a program with full knowledge of how it operates…
Newtons.Bit (51a7c4) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:49 pm“as ‘waterboarding’ is torture, outlawed and illegal for a century”
ASPCA – Citations, if you can find any, would be helpful, numbnuts, given your dismal record with facts around here.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:49 pmdaley,
He’ll cite a Japanese system where the innocent subjects died, and compare it to ours where the mass-murdering assholes lived.
Patterico (cc3b34) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:52 pm#14 So how many friends, relatives, neighbors and fellow citizens will you allow to die before you would pour water on someone’s face? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands? More than thousands? Is there any limit to the number of people you would allow to be blown to bits, gassed, nuked, etc., before you would pour water on a terrorist’s face?
tick, tick, tick..
Perfectsense (0922fa) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:53 pmAlso, daley: you’re asking DCSCA for citations?
DCSCA?!?!
Patterico (cc3b34) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:53 pmDCSCA:
I put the question to you, with utter confidence that you will weasel:
If the choice is:
A) Let planes fly into the Library Tower in L.A., killing thousands, or
B) Waterboard mass-murdering asshole KSM
Which do you choose?
Begin your weaselly fucking evasions . . . NOW!
Patterico (cc3b34) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:57 pmAt least ASPCA has made it clear that he is more concerned with someone thinking that they might drown, not anything remotely approaching actual drowning, over the lives of its fellow Americans.
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:57 pmIt would also help if the DCSCA-troll apologized for its lies, such as its ridiculous lie that Camp Pendleton construction was funded with bailout money, and for its hatespeech obit against Tony Snow.
But I don’t expect such decency from that ethical pygmy, DCSCA.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/23/2009 @ 9:58 pmBroBrad,
I want the video showing the father and kid being interviewed and yelling fascist that he claimed to have.
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:00 pm“Also, daley: you’re asking DCSCA for citations?”
Patterico – It is too much to expect isn’t it. I do like to remind people that he’s essentially 2-48 on purported facts here, though. I have not seen any definitive proof of what he claims so to me it’s just another hairball he coughed up.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:01 pmI want the video showing the father and kid being interviewed and yelling fascist that he claimed to have.
But he has it in a super-secret private collection!! Also, if it’s not true, he stands corrected!!!
Patterico (cc3b34) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:04 pmDCSCA writes:
This is one of those factoids that gets tossed around with some frequency on the Left. But you won’t find it in NPR’s history of waterboarding. That history mentions cases from the Philippines, and the Asano war crimes case, both of which involved pouring water directly into the mouths and noses of subjects which is considerably more harsh and dangerous.
Of course, if DCSCA has a link that backs up what he wrote, I would love to read it.
Karl (3bf5f8) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:04 pm“If ignoring the rule of law and parsing a position that only certain officials should be held accountable for their actions while others were ‘just following orders’ , then there may be something wrong with you. ”
– we’ll remember your comments after the next attack which horribly kills thousands of Americans.
The purpose of the rule of law is to establish borders which shouldn’t be crossed in a civilized society. Unfortunately, we are dealing with people who have chosen not to be a part of any civilized society and have shown themselves to looking for maximum loss of human life. Case closed. This is not a legal matter, it is a national security concern.
The rule of law also says that I may not drive my vehicle above posted speed limits. But if my wife is giving birth in the backseat, I’ll do whatever necessary to get her to the hospital safely – even if it does mean disobeying the posted speed limit.
DaveinPhoenix (9b506a) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:05 pmPatterico @18 – Or our prosecution of WWII Japanese war criminals where multiple counts of prisoner abuse, including water torture, were charged, not allowing a strict comparison to the current situation.
I think we’re talking about the same situation.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:06 pmAnd yeah, the request for a link is rhetorical, but served as a nice platform for my links.
Karl (3bf5f8) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:06 pmStashiu3,
Yes, that alleged video DCSCA claimed to have, too.
DCSCA, you’ve been nailed in multiple lies. There is simply no reason to believe anything you say. And your cowardly silence about your lies won’t make us forget them. This blog community has a memory for serial liars, and your place there is secure.
You have zero credibility. Get lost.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:07 pm“Also, if it’s not true, he stands corrected!!!”
Bu..,bu.., but if it’s on tape isn’t a simple matter to determine if it is true or not? What is the BIG DEAL????
LET’S GO TO THE VIDEOTAPE!!!!111!!!eleventy!!!11!!
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:09 pmdaleyrocks,
I just linked the debunking of the Asano argument.
But I’ll add the New Yorker piece on the Philippines, which involved pouring water into victims until they swelled like toads. Not exactly analogous.
Karl (3bf5f8) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:10 pmThat one struck me as odd, Patterico. If it had the video, and had watched it, it would not have to put that weasel clause in there.
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:11 pm“But he has it in a super-secret private collection!!”
Maybe Cyrus can get hold of it for us.
Damn, I didn’t say that out loud, did I?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:12 pm“But I’ll add the New Yorker piece on the Philippines, which involved pouring water into victims until they swelled like toads.”
I would be kinda fun to see Michael Moore volunteer for that to show how brutal it is.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:14 pmdaley,
Moore would make a poor subject — how would anyone notice the difference?
Karl (3bf5f8) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:17 pm#16- How can something approved by congress be considered illegal? Gee, if you pondered that question over a scotch and soda at your table in the Stork Club in 1927 celebrating Lindy’s flight to Paris, you’d have been arrested.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:19 pmThe Stork Club was approved by Congress? Really?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:20 pmDCSCA, apologize for your lies and hate obit of Tony Snow.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:21 pm“Moore would make a poor subject — how would anyone notice the difference?”
Karl – Water shortage.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:23 pmDon’t speak of ASPCA’s hero, Michael Moore, in such a disrespectful manner. We all know that the Moore/Soros/Olbergasm wing of the dirty little pseudo-socialists are in charge and you simply must not mock them.
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:29 pmI don’t know why you people doubt ACRAP’s veracity. After all, how many CIABS agents who worked on Naenronsa oil rigs off the coast of Libya do you know who have ever lied?
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:39 pmI suppose he will be calling for criminal prosecutions of Pelosi and Rockefeller too.
Patterico – that call on the weaselly evasions was about as difficult as predicting water will be wet.
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:43 pmDon’t forget about its time at SeeBS …
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:45 pm#21- Odd language coming from you. Faux-poster, perhaps. One has to assume your language degernation, something you have little tolerance from in others, is due to diet cola with drawl so it can be understood.
Your question is an absurd straw man. A- the Liberty Tower plot is dubious; even Dubya got it wrong propagandizing it; B- what does breaking the law and waterboard MMA KSM have to do with it as any information obtained is at best, suspicious? Waterboard a guy 163 times and he’ll confess to sleeping with sheep, bathing in chocolate ice cream and enjoying Fox News.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:47 pm#44- If they can be held accountable for it, yes. Absolutely. Everyone there should be held accountable. Just as in Watergate.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:49 pmWeasel
JD (f8b50e) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:49 pmIt’s not a strawman, it’s a hypothetical, which you weaselly refused to answer. As expected.
Where’s the video?
Stashiu3 (460dc1) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:50 pmAnd what state requires 2-year-olds to attend school?
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:55 pmIf you want to bring up Watergate, you might want to think about the Obama-GE connection.
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 4/23/2009 @ 10:57 pm#51- Obama-GE, we bring good things to life. Apparently, America agrees.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/23/2009 @ 11:01 pmhttp://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obamas-hidden-bailout-of-General-Electric_03_04-40686707.html
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 4/23/2009 @ 11:08 pm“The purpose of the rule of law is to establish borders which shouldn’t be crossed in a civilized society. Unfortunately, we are dealing with people who have chosen not to be a part of any civilized society and have shown themselves to looking for maximum loss of human life. Case closed. This is not a legal matter, it is a national security concern.”
Well said. In war the ultimate rule is: We’ll play nice and obey the rules, if you play nice and obey the rules; if you won’t play nice, then neither will we. Always has been that way, always will be that way. Hypocritical leftoid hogwash notwithstanding.
Dave Surls (501b57) — 4/23/2009 @ 11:52 pmWhen the liberals dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima they were violating the laws and customs of war six ways from Sunday. It was an egregious war crime, that resulted in the deaths of roughly 100,000 innocent civilians. We ain’t talking about waterboarding terrorists…we’re talking about a REAL BIG war crime…burning babies alive.
What the liberal Democrats did is justifiable ONLY because the Japanese refused to follow the laws and customs of war…and so, we also refused to follow the laws and customs of war. There is no other justification.
Tough luck for the Japanese. They brought it on themselves.
Tough luck for Al Qaida. They brought it on themselves.
And, liberals/Democrats can keep their hypocritical moaning about atrocities to themselves. Liberals/Democrats whining about war crimes and atrocities is about as impressive as Nazis bitching about anti-semitism.
Dave Surls (501b57) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:06 am#28- – we’ll remember your comments after the next attack which horribly kills thousands of Americans. Pandering fear and threats again, as is the conservative habit. You have forgotten why Americans have rejected you. And forgotten the worst attacked on American soil happened on the conservative watch, even after you were warned. Rice, Bush, Cheney et al had the report. And did nothing. Yes, we never forget the failure of the Bush Adminstration to prevent the attack on America by 19 guys with $500,000, beating a multi-trillion dollar military that failed its citizenry miserably.
Unfortunately, we are dealing with people who have chosen not to be a part of any civilized society and have shown themselves to looking for maximum loss of human life. Case closed. This is not a legal matter, it is a national security concern.
Odd. As you surely know civilization was thriving in that region centuries before this young land was even known to exist. The fact you disagree with their religion and lump a small group of fanatics into a single hateful image would be as unfair as for liberals to lump all conservatives into a group who only drive pick-up trucks, listen to C/W, wave confederate flags and still cling to John Birch’s value system. In fact, we’re dealing with a very small group of people. This is a legal matter, which rises to national concern, and doesnt require an elephant to go after flies with a hammer. And Americans want accountability. So let the chips fall where they may.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:37 am#46, DCSCA wrote: “…what does breaking the law and waterboard MMA KSM have to do with it as any information obtained is at best, suspicious?”
Well, why don’t we let President Obama’s Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, tell us:
http://www.aim.org/don-irvine-blog/blair-says-bush-interrogation-methods-worked/
danebramage (700c93) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:44 am“And forgotten the worst attacked on American soil happened on the conservative watch”
FDR was a conservative, eh?
Learn something new everyday.
Dave Surls (501b57) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:47 am#54- In war the ultimate rule is: We’ll play nice and obey the rules, if you play nice and obey the rules; if you won’t play nice, then neither will we. Always has been that way, always will be that way. Hypocritical leftoid hogwash notwithstanding. Really? I don’t recall reading American soldiers rounding up Axis nationals and herding them into gas chambers in Texas. Americans would never do that. But their enemies did.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:49 am#55 When the liberals dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima they were violating the laws and customs of war six ways from Sunday. I guess the conservatives were on leave that day after months of incendiary bombings over Japanese cities, which actually killed more. And I’m sure Al Quida will welcome you equating their power and reach today to that of the Empire of Japan in the early 1940s. Wonder how many aircraft carriers Al Quida has built this month.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:55 am#58- Learn something new everyday. Yes, you have, as the Territory of Hawaii was not a state in 1941.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:59 am#56, DCSCA wrote: “…and still cling to John Birch’s value system.”
You don’t even know who John Birch is (hint: he did not found the John Birch Society). How much less can you know his “value system?”
You should read about it and him here, because the man you’re deriding is fifty times the man you’ll ever be. Go. Read it now.
Fool.
(Sorry. I don’t like losing my temper, but this just pissed me off.)
danebramage (700c93) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:02 am#62- Apparently Bill Buckley disagreed. He must have missed you in the purge. More’s the pity.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:21 amDCSCA – I am so surprised, you have yet to address my question in post #14: How many people would you allow to die before pouring water on someone’s face?
The clock continues to tick.
Perfectsense (0922fa) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:30 am#23- ridiculous lie that Camp Pendleton construction was funded with bailout money
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/President-Obama-Announces-New-Camp-Pendleton/C8tckk71GEm5jpoyXjRELw.cspx
President Obama Announces New Camp Pendleton Military Hospital
SAN DIEGO – The federal government’s newly approved economic stimulus plan includes funding for a $500 million military medical center that will replace Naval Hospital Camp Pendleton, the Navy announced Friday.
The roughly 500,000-square-foot new facility “will continue to provide the full spectrum of medical care, from maternity and newborn care to adult intensive care,” according to a statement from Navy Medicine West.
The multi-story hospital, which is expected to be complete in 2013 and fully operational by the following year, will stand in the South Mesa area of the Marine Corps base, near its commissary and exchange complex.
Naval Hospital Camp Pendleton opened in 1974.
Highway Funds
SAN DIEGO – The bulk of federal stimulus funds set aside for San Diego County transportation projects are tentatively set to pay for a State Route 76 widening project, it was announced Friday.
The San Diego Association of Governments’ Transportation Committee approved a plan to spend $127 million of the money on three projects.
Most of the money, $105 million, will pay for widening Highway 76 between Melrose Drive in Oceanside to South Mission Road in Bonsall.
By using the stimulus money, committee members hope work will begin late this summer or early in the fall, about three months ahead of the original schedule.
A widening project of the 805 Freeway over Carroll Canyon Road in the Sorrento Valley will receive $18 million.
The remaining $4 million will be directed toward installing an elevator at the Grossmont Center Trolley Station in La Mesa. Currently, trolley riders who go to the mall must ascend a long flight of stairs.
Additional stimulus funds could be made available for an auxiliary lane on the 805 at E Street in Chula Vista and improvements of the 905 freeway near the Otay Mesa Port of Entry.
Keep sourcing the NCT, Goober, even if it misses a story. It needs all the readers it can get. One must assume you’re retired now and living off the royalties from your namesake typefont– dingbat.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:34 am#64- Gee, lets switch on Fox and catch ’24’ and see what Jack Bauer would do. After all, that’s clearly your reality.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:39 am#57- Yes, I’m sure to some in the intellegence community learning KSM slept with sheep, bathed in chocolate ice cream and enjoyed Fox News was considered ‘high value’ information. But then, they’re bureaucrats, arent they.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:48 am#62- ‘John Bircher’s value system.’ The society, not the man. Yes.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:58 amLove it. Simply love it.
Never answer a direct challenge and pick nits.
Because the direct challenges are unanswerable, and all it is capable of is picking nits.
What was that about feeding trolls?
TEH NARRATIVE and DCSCA – two flavors of the same bullshit. Sorta like vanilla and French vanilla.
Dr. K (e70a2d) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:42 am“Really? I don’t recall reading American soldiers rounding up Axis nationals and herding them into gas chambers in Texas.”
No one said they did. However, they did (among other not too pleasant things) round up a bunch of SS Guards at Dachau and summarily execute them. Not exactly legal under the laws of war. And, of course, the liberal government of the day didn’t do anything about it…except cover it up, which means they gave it their tacit approval. How does that stack up against waterboarding?
As I said the basic rule of war, which we have ALWAYS followed is: If the enemy plays nice, we play nice, if they don’t, we don’t. True now, and just as true when liberals run the country…except when liberals don’t play nice hundreds of thousands of civilians die (on purpose…the goal of the Hiroshima attack wasn’t to hit military targets, the goal was to kill as many Japanese civilians as possible), when the not-so-liberals don’t play nice, then terrorists are made to suffer discomfort.
The fact of the matter is is that you Liberals committed all kinds of war crimes during WWII (and in other wars). Many of these were actually ordered by the commander-in-chief, and many weren’t ordered, but were tolerated, which still makes the commanders guilty, since they’re legally responsible for the actions of their subordinates. Commanders can’t legally allow their troops to summarily execute captured enemy soldiers, and not punish them…but that’s exactly what Roosevelt and Truman did do.
“I guess the conservatives were on leave that day after months of incendiary bombings over Japanese cities”
Well, they were certainly not in control of the government at that time. Responsibility for the attack on Hiroshima rests squarely on the shoulders of the Liberal Democrats who were.
“And I’m sure Al Quida will welcome you equating their power and reach today to that of the Empire of Japan in the early 1940s. Wonder how many aircraft carriers Al Quida has built this month.”
In response to my observation that the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima was not carried out in accordance with the laws of war (which it most definitely wasn’t) you seem to be suggesting that because the Japanese were stronger than Al Qaida (true), it follows that war crimes and/or atrocities committed against the Japanese civilian population are justified. This, makes absolutely to sense.
“Yes, you have, as the Territory of Hawaii was not a state in 1941.”
Hawaii was American soil, as was the Philippines, Guam, Wake I., etc. And, the disasters suffered by American forces in the first days of WWII make 9/11 look like a tea party. Thanks to the brilliant leadership of FDR, we lost a significant part of our fleet, large numbers of aircraft, many thousands of American and Filipino lives, not to mention tens of thousands of American/Filipino taken prisoner by the Japanese, many of whom subsequently died horrific deaths in captivity.
Contrary to your ignorant assertion, The worst attacks on American soil happened under a “Liberal watch”.
Way to go liberals.
And, your idiotic responses didn’t address any point I made. You’re just spinning, twisting, throwing out strawmen.
Typical.
Dave Surls (b327cf) — 4/24/2009 @ 3:21 amPerhaps the decision-takers had just seen The Mummy with Brandon Fraser and Rachel Weisz, and were thinking along the lines of the scarab beetles in the movie.
The speculating Dana (3e4784) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:17 amComment by danebramage — 4/24/2009 @ 1:02 am
We don’t have to apologize for anything, brainiac, we’re conservatives. Did Dick Cheney ever apologize for shooting that guy in the face? No, he didn’t have to. He is a conservative.
Jeffrey Diamond (1f03f0) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:19 am“Did Dick Cheney ever apologize for shooting that guy in the face?”
Jeff – He did apologize. As a real conservative you should know that and that conservatives always do the right thing.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:28 amI agree Daley. Whether he apologized or not, it was the right thing to do (or not do).
Jeffrey Diamond (1f03f0) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:30 amThe moronic convergence of Jeffrey Diamond and ASPCA continues …
JD (34eca7) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:48 amI don’t understand why you are insulting your ideological brother, JD. We believe the same things.
Jeffrey Diamond (1f03f0) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:50 amLiar.
JD (34eca7) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:00 amJeff, like I said, he did apologize. You should know that. Just as you should not ask JD for links, there are certain things as a conservative you should just know. If you feel JD should provide a link, you should do the right thing and provide it for him. Real conservatives help each other out.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:01 amWell, if I agree with everything you ever post on here, brother, then that makes you a liar too. 🙂
Jeffrey Diamond (1f03f0) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:02 amNah, I believe that Cheney apologized. If nothing else Cheney is 100% magnanimous.
Jeffrey Diamond (1f03f0) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:03 amit beggars belief that we’re talking about the rights of people who want and have killed american citizens. there was no debate as to human rights offenses (taking a person’s life), when they blew up the cole, flew into the towers.
granted, we don’t want to pull fingernails off (maybe we do), but using a caterpillar to get information from a scumbag sounds acceptable to me.
ktr (c7ee10) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:16 amWhy do they insist on this childish hoo-ha?
JD (34eca7) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:16 am[…] course, even under the evil President Bush, we had our limits: we declined to put Abu Zubaydah in a cramped box with caterpillars! Surely, surely! that would have justified beheadings! Category: Foreign Policy, War Against […]
Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » At least they didn’t waterboard them (73d96f) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:42 amHawaii was not a state in 1941, but it was still American soil.
You’ve refuted nothing, you ignoramus.
Steverino (1b3695) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:46 amI was watching a new video of Ron White. He said something to the effect you can’t fix stupid. Mr. Diamond and DCSCA. You cannot be fixed in the sense of being repaired. People on the left take a word and distort its meaning. Torture is a good word people seem to want to expand the mean of to include those things which by action alone are not. I watched a video of some bright liberal volunteering to be waterboarded. He bet he could stand it for longer than 15 seconds. The waterboarder looked to be military, wearing a ski mask to conceal his identity (probably from Obamites who would foolishly threaten his family) The process was pretty simple. The waterboarder explained exactly what the waterboardee was going to feel and why. The volunteer did not last 15 seconds before he signaled stop. He was never in danger of being injured. The proceedure simply caused him to lose his rationality and panic. That was many things, but it was not torture. Jeff and DCS, for your edification, have someone competent obtain for you documentary copies of what Saddam did to his political enemies. Suggestion. Buy a wood chipper and run your arm into it. That is torture, not putting a cloth over someones face, inverting them slightly and dribbling water onto the cloth.
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (57cae1) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:03 amTorture is letting Liberals pontificate without rebuttal.
PCD (02f8c1) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:11 amComment by Dave Surls — 4/24/2009 @ 3:21 am
When I read his comment had wondered who was going to catch him on that one. LOL
As is true most days, the commenter in question fails to read others’ posts carefully in his rush to make sure everyone reads HIS comments. Leads to some embarrassing moments, doesn’t it? Strange that said commenter doesn’t seem to learn from them, as most of us do.
no one you know (65b7aa) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:18 amTorture is daily MSNBC, CNN, etc etc etc.
krusher (645baf) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:24 amTorture is listening to the Left curse Miss California.
Torture is Janet Napolitano’s drivel.
Torture is listening to Obuma without his teleprompter.
Torture is watching this great country being apologized for in foreign countries.
Fortunately, the Taliban don’t waterboard their prisoners; that would be wrong.
The snarky Dana (3e4784) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:37 amDon’t forget about its time at SeeBS …
…or his stint assassinating world leaders at the CIA;
…or his time spent working at Enron;
…while also simultaneously working on centrifuge rockets at NASA (he just skipped a few blocks between both places during coffee breaks);
…and the time he met Von Braun while still in his underwear
He’s our own little Zelig, isn’t he?
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:38 amDCSCA,
Thanks for finally providing evidence on your Camp Pendleton claim, even if you were a bit off — “stimulus” is not “bailout”, which is the word you used. There is a significant difference. And you got the timeline confused.
This is why links are so important.
I don’t approve of the “stimulus”, in a military or any other context. The whole stimulus idea is a shell game. It’s borrowed money that will have to be repaid with taxes, depressing economic activity. Money spent on the military should be primarily for military reasons, with economic benefits for the region secondary.
And Hawaii was indeed “American soil” in 1941 — the term you used — even though it was not a state.
Now, provide the tape with the guy shouting “fascist” ,and apologize for your hatespeech obit on Tony Snow.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:49 amBradley, don’t you realize that Von Braun would be so disappointed in your intensive questioning of his former pupil? Give the man a chance, he just got back from the secret hit squads in Somalia!
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:18 amBecause Zubaydah appeared afraid of insects, they also authorized interrogators to place him in a box and fill [the] box with caterpillars (that tactic ultimately was not used).
Please don’t throw me into that briar patch!
If I am ever interrogated, I hope the government never finds out how terrified I am of T-bone steaks, Jack Daniels whiskey, Marlboro cigarettes, and nude large-breasted women who insist on cuddling up to me.
nk (4b5c8a) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:32 amAs for me, with the recent revelation of memos that claim to time travel and foil a plot to fly airplanes into buildings in Los Angeles was disrupted by waterboarding KSM, the false equivalence is simple:
If you have a tough time standing trial for committing a crime and asserting an affirmative defense, there’s something wrong with you.
Internet Tough Guy (22501b) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:32 amI think they did try the last tactic on some prisoners at Gitmo, BTW.
nk (4b5c8a) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:34 amGood stuff, Karl.
Another good question for the morally sanctimonious:
Would you rather kill someone or water board them?
MayBee (c633c9) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:34 amI think Jeffrey Diamond = Oiram.
Just my two cents…
Steverino (69d941) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:54 amThen there was all the anger from Peter recently.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:58 amHey Dmac:
Except Zelig was actually there, right?
Also, you creeped me out the confluence of WvB and underwear. Eeewww.
Look: the guy is just a troll trying to pick fights. Sort of like several other trolls.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:02 amI think Jeffrey Diamond = Oiram.
That guess is as good as any, except the Jeffrey character is not nearly as grammatically – challenged. He also posts late at night, of which Oriam only posts during business hours. But perhaps they’re both that clever? Nah…
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:38 amEric, it’s difficult to try to keep up with all of the various claims and aliases – you pegged it with your Walter Mitty references earlier.
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:45 amMayBee,
Credit Patterico for the original post. However, aside from the comments, here, I was involved in the tweeting Patterico quotes, in a minor way.
Karl (983a67) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:49 amDmac, I don’t make a charge of sock puppetry lightly. Jeffrey Diamond is a sock puppet of one of the lefty commenters here. I’m guessing it’s Oiram based on the writing style. You are right, though, Oiram tends to make more grammatical errors.
Steverino (69d941) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:06 amWould you rather torture someone for something he didn’t do
or
for Republicans, would you just rather torture someone to make yourselves feel better for not getting Bin Laden?
“Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a “fixer” for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 — and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan.”
cologuy (c7fd4e) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:06 amA distinction without a difference, but we’ll put that one into the nice try column. Better yet, maybe not.
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:10 amI see cologuy likes savaging strawmen. Nice insertion of conservative bloodlust in there. Well done.
JD (788853) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:13 amSo, in the 4 weeks or so between 9/11 and the US invading Afghanistan, Abu Zubaida started working directly with AQ. And, as a result, was very likely to be collaborating with AQ on future plans.
No, he wouldn’t have been a source for intel, would he?
Steverino (69d941) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:16 amCologuy,
I think you just explained why FDR rounded up Japanese-Americans without trial or even evidence, and dropped them in barbwire fenced camps. He was mad about Pearl Harbor and what better way to get back at the Japanese than punishing a 3rd party that looked like the actual attackers. But that’s damn evil. Do you really want to say one of the heroes of the Democratic party – no, THE hero of the Democratic Party – was evil?
Can that really be your final answer, Cologuy. FDR is evil? I’m not buying it. You can spout your lies about FDR all you want but I still support the guy. He had some tough decisions to make – bad vs worse – and I can’t judge him knowing these would be difficult decisions myself. So you can take your anti-FDR rhetoric and find some right wing blog to spout your hate at. Wingnuts!
EBJ (2fd7f7) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:21 amThat colon guy is back. Arguing with trolls is like mud wrestling pigs but be my guest.
Mike K (8df289) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:24 amMike K.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R., (83f220) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:32 amHere’s the photo.
Who would you rather torture:
Khalid el-Masri
or
Maher Arar?
boop. beep. boop. beep.
Internet Tough Guy (22501b) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:54 amThe fact that KSM is still alive speaks volumes to the restraint of the men who had him. I would have done far worse to the man.
I would have had no problems with the men that captured him (or later held him captive) to beat the crap out of him daily, pull off all of his fingernails and toenails and then flay every piece of his flesh off of his skin. I would call that a justifiable homicide. I would probably do this to him if I had him.
The man is directly responsibile for the deaths of 3,000 men, women and children. Our relatives. Our family. There is nothing that is too much to do to this man. But we drew a line. We did not cause permanent physical or even mental damage to this lunatic. We have a very professional set of both military and intelligence officials and I thank them for the restraint that I would not have.
Newtons Bit (a67c58) — 4/24/2009 @ 11:29 amRawr. You go girl.
Internet Tough Guy (22501b) — 4/24/2009 @ 12:06 pmThat sure looks like him, Bradley.
Mike K (8df289) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:30 pmHow about give the government the power to torture whenever it deems is necessary or have some sort of morally based standard that prevents governments from abusing their power.
I have no problem answering this one. Its much more based in facts rather than speculation. I can cite many examples of governments abusing powers.
Hut (a339b6) — 4/24/2009 @ 1:59 pm#70- I’m sure the citizens of the Territory of Hawaii during WW2 would disagree with your assertion that they were residents on ‘American soil’ as:
1. they were subject to martial law
2. denied the rights and ability to elect their own governor
3. denied the ability to cast votes and elect the president in U.S. elections
4. were subject to taxation without voting representation in Congress
Indeed, the Territory of Hawaii was denied statehood for decades based on objections chiefly from the redneck bigots in southern United States due to racial issues.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:04 pmWhere’s that vid showing the father of the 2 – year old shouting facist slogans at the Tea Party in Chicago? Why can’t you produce it, since you’ve claimed for over a week now that it does indeed exist?
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:06 pm#91- Goober, see #114. Conservatives are big boys and can do their own homework from now on. Now run along, Barney needs gas for the squad car.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:13 pm#84- See #114. Then see a librarian.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:17 pm“2. denied the rights and ability to elect their own governor”
Yeah, that’s the same problem black people had in South Carolina in those days (thanks to the Democrats)…but South Carolina was still American soil.
Dave Surls (03a6c1) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:19 pmRed herring. Hawaii was a US Territory, and US soil in 1941. No US territory has ever been allowed to vote in a presidential election. None of the other points matter, the fact that Hawaii was US soil in 1941 is undeniable.
Steverino (69d941) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:19 pmRACISTS !!!!!!!!!
JD (d9176e) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:20 pmI propose somebody throw a caterpillar at ASPCA. Or even a butterfly. Or a roly poly.
JD (d9176e) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:23 pm“1. they were subject to martial law”
So were Japanese-American citizens on the mainland.
President Lincoln imposed martial law on much of the country during our Civil War.
Dopey.
Dave Surls (03a6c1) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:30 pm“4. were subject to taxation without voting representation in Congress”
Yeah, kinda like the people who live in the District of Colombia.
Dopey.
Dave Surls (03a6c1) — 4/24/2009 @ 2:34 pm“3. denied the ability to cast votes and elect the president in U.S. elections”
Speaking of D.C…residents of our national capital couldn’t vote in presidential elections until 1961.
And, I reckon that takes care of all four of your “arguments” in post 114.
Dave Surls (03a6c1) — 4/24/2009 @ 4:07 pmPuerto Rico, a current US territory, has no voting representation in Congress.
DCSCA, when has a non-state ever had voting representation in Congress? I think you’re the one who needs to spend time at the library.
Please admit that you were wrong: that Hawaii was a US territory, and thus US soil in 1941.
Steverino (1b3695) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:29 pm#119- Totally deniable to the conservative mind set that believes unwaveringly that 1+1=11, not 2. But then, the right is never wrong, right?
#125- I’m sure the residents of the City of New York in the state of New York are thrilled to kbow the conservative mind set equates them with the territory of Puerto Rico. Gomer, Opie needs air in his tires.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 5:54 pmNice way to not answer the question. Hawaii was a US territory in 1941, and thus US soil. You’ve offered absolutely nothing to prove that it wasn’t.
No one here has equated the residents of New York City or state with Puerto Rico. I merely stated the absolute fact that Puerto Rico does not have a vote in Congress (it does have a non-voting representative). In the same line, residents of Puerto Rico are not eligible to vote for the US President. That’s not the conservative mindset, it’s a simple fact. Deal with it.
Steverino (1b3695) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:01 pmACRAP: where’s that video showing that man and his child calling Obama a fascist?
John Hitchcock (fb941d) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:03 pmYou’re attempting to argue with a literal Bobo Doll – whatever you send at him, he just rebounds off the floor right back at you.
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:04 pmI would not be too dismissive of DCSCA. He dropped in one comment at #14 and didn’t show again for more than an hour but he pulled the whole thread off topic and has dominated it since. I don’t mean his arguments are worth anything but almost every one of the last 115 comments has been attacking him or about him. As much as I despise seeing him be allowed to do it you have to acknowledge he has successfully manipulated everyone here. Is he really worth engaging?
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:36 pmYeah, if the only response to DCSCA was “Blow me”, I wonder how long he would last here.
nk (4b5c8a) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:44 pmIf he was simply ignored as not here then it would not matter if he stayed or left. The conversation or debate would continue among those who were interested in the topic or discussion.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:47 pmIt’s not my place to suggest who people should engage but he has shown a talent for sweeping a thread and pulling all the attention to himself. He seems good at it and it should be admitted if it’s not to be dealt with. That is not a talent usually found in the dumbest person in the room. (I’ll take that end of the bench)
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 6:51 pmMachinist – Andrew owns that end of the bench. I would disagree that it requires any brains to do that. People tend to react to abject dishonesty. And it spews out the same stuff over and over. I am the first to admit that I fail to not respond. It is a weakness of mine.
JD (10c938) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:02 pmI mean no criticism of anybody, Sir. I just think it a mistake to underestimate someone who can successfully manipulate people who are as good as many of the commenters here. I have the highest respect for a number of the regulars here. No other place I’ve seen compares.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:18 pmWhy not make the argument that the Pearl Harbor bombing of the US Navy and killing US sailors was done at sea and avoid the whole “soil” problem altogether?
Dennis Miller’s show today had a caller that pointed out that Americans will go on TV shows like “Fear Factor” and stick their faces into plastic boxes filled with scorpions on the off chance they’ll win a prize.
SteveG (02d951) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:29 pmI’m pretty certain that we could fill a casting call for a show that includes waterboarding.
I know that I’d rather be waterboarded a couple of times than do 30 days in LA County Jail. I’ve come close to drowning before and got over it within a couple days plus I got to choose my own TV shows, eat good food, and use the phone whenever I wanted to.
#137- Conservatives engage because they are reactionaries and cannot accept the truth that 1+1 does indeed equal 2, not 11.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:31 pmTrolls live for attention. Responding to them lets them prove they are alive and someone thinks they are important enough to answer. It is like poking a snake to see if it is alive. I don’t recommend it.
Mike K (2cf494) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:35 pm#138- Dennis Miller’s show today had a caller that pointed out that Americans will go on TV shows like “Fear Factor” and stick their faces into plastic boxes filled with scorpions on the off chance they’ll win a prize.
I’m pretty certain that we could fill a casting call for a show that includes waterboarding.
Yet boss Limbaugh slaps himself and makes fun of torture. And Sean Hannity refuses to be waterboarded for charity after saying he would on his own show earlier this week. At last hearing, Keith Olbermann offered to donate $1000 per SECOND to charities supporting families of the troops for every second Sean lasted.
Hannity’s silence is deafening.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:35 pm#140- Speaking from experience, eh Mickey? Such a mouse.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:37 pmI find it disturbing that a police officer is allowed to use a Taser on someone to coerce obedience, even where there is no weapon, aggression, or threat to the officer or the public, yet we are not to cause discomfort to an illegal combatant who may have information about a plot to kill thousands of Americans. The values here are skewed.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:39 pmI will take Olberdouche’s challenge in a heartbeat.
CATERPILLARS! BOO!
We can add 1+1, to ASPCA’s Tourette’s list of Rush, Palin, ants @ the Empire State Bldg, et al
JD (b9ec92) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:46 pm#143 Machinist:
You sure got that right.
Was in the car the other day and overheard some gal on a call in radio show saying that she would rather members of her family die than know that they were saved from an act of terrorism by discomfiting a terrorist temporarily.
WTF?
O_O
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:51 pmJD, I would make him put that offer in writing. They aren’t real good about honoring their word.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:51 pm#144 JD:
Were he serious, that’s a challenge I wouldn’t mind taking myself…as long as I’m allowed to bankrupt him.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 7:54 pmYou are right about getting that in writing. I have no doubt that he would weasel his way out of it. I am pretty stubborn, and willful, and would derive great pleasure in wiping that pond scum out of house and home.
JD (b9ec92) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:05 pmMachinist, you make good points. Childish taunts, though, are a the measure of intelligence. Disagreement is healthy, but being disagreeable (and insulting the host of this blog) isn’t Stephen Hawking style smart.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:07 pmMachinist, that was meant to be a question, too quickly posted.
I mean: Childish taunts, though, are a measure of intelligence?
Not really.
And the sad part is that the Left of center commenters here who are civil and contribute to discussion are not present. Who wants to be in a mudfight?
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:09 pmLimbaugh is making fun of…. well…. you.
SteveG (02d951) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:16 pmNot of real torture.
I’d rather be waterboarded by the USA than be within 200 yards of al Qaeda operatives with power tools…
Eric Blair, I agree with you Sir. In my opinion the commenters like Doug and Tim McGarry should be treated with respect as they discuss the issues in a reasonable and civil manner. The trolls like DCSCA, Jeffrey Diamond, and others are only here to disrupt the site and the discussions. They contribute nothing. The trolls behavior is a reflection of there character, not their intelligence, and they should not be underestimated. They have been quite successful here. How many of the last 12 threads has Dcsca alone hijacked or disrupted? You can see he jumps from thread to thread dropping his bombs and laughing as the ants swarm. I really can’t imagine that any taunt or insult from people here would bother him in the least. It’s all part of what he’s here for.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:18 pmThink of the waste of energy. I think that this is all part of the anger that the Left is still dealing with, despite its victories!
They should be out fighting to make the Dream real, instead of playing childish word games. In fact, several of them get so heated up they insult the host of this blog…and then have to dial it back.
Oh well. I didn’t agree with Doug, but he was civil, as you state, and merited respect. Tim McGarry I was prepared to like, but then he started insulting people like Bradley Fikes. Odd.
To each their own.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:22 pmI guess what I am saying is that I’d be OK with being waterboarded by experienced CIA operatives under doctor supervised conditions for charity, but would not let al Qaeda drill a hole through my skull with an underpowered Makita driving a rusty 3/8 ‘s bit for any amount of money.
SteveG (02d951) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:27 pmI can be a little provincial and culturally insensitive though and might be missing some nuance.
Eric Blair, I can’t comment on the specific remark you reference but I saw a lot of venom and abuse thrown at Tim and very little coming back. However much I might disagree with his positions I must respect his composure. All that I have heard as justification so far was that a commenter took exception to something he said on a different sight years ago.
If I may make a more general observation I think the one thing this site most needs is reasonable and articulate commenters from the other side of the spectrum to balance the discussions and keep everyone grounded. There is no shortage of brilliant, well educated people with a wealth of diverse experience on the right side in this group, but who is there on the left? If people like Tim and Doug are discouraged from joining in than why would anyone else take the chance? Echo chambers are not healthy and I hate to see this become a debate on fine points within a narrow range of acceptable beliefs. That would waste the fine minds here.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:40 pmTrue. I don’t think Bradley Fikes deserved the insults thrown his way, but there was some history there.
Disagreement is fine. Disagreeableness is counterproductive to discussion. But the disagreeable types are not here to discuss. Just to fight, and be Keyboard Kommandos.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:45 pmGlad to see that the RSPCA continue to reference post #’s, thus arguing with themselves at times. Anyone so stupid as to ignore so many people’s advice on such a simple matter obviously has no intellectual chops. Or, as Dennis Prager might put it, only a PhD could be so stupid.
I was just in mexico, eating from several shared dishes in a … well, rustic setting in which the food was mostly covered in flies. I guess I have been tortured. We also saw some tarantulas and black widow spiders, which was cool.
Hey, RSPCA, where is the video with the kid screaming fascist? Also, the guy you offed in Libya, can you give me his name?
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:45 pm“But the disagreeable types are not here to discuss. Just to fight, ”
Then it does not make sense to give them what they came for. If they get that then they win.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:52 pmMachinist, I struggle with your sentiment vs. that of Christopher Hitchens – i.e., (paraphrasing) when one is confronted with a clown, one must point and laugh. one simply must.
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:57 pmI think that Mike K. (who is an MD, and whom I always called “Dr. K. on Cathy Seipp’s blog) has the right idea. Though a troll kept calling him silly names, he just ignored it.
But then, Dr. K. is pretty bright.
Eric Blair (33cc23) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:58 pm#151 SteveG:
Or kitchen equipment.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 8:58 pmCarlitos, isn’t that what a clown wants? Aren’t you rewarding his efforts?
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:07 pmPeople like Hax were dishonest about it but most of the trolls now make no pretense of being reasonable. They wear virtual red noses and greasepaint.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:10 pmEric,
I didn’t much mind the insults thrown my way; people can make up their own minds about whether they’re merited. I’m certainly not going to whine to the blogmaster that someone’s being mean to me when I’m plenty aggressive myself. 😉
Tim McGarry imported his feud with Mike K. from Cathy’s blog; a feud based on a trivially offensive remark that punctured Tim’s vanity. And I naturally wondered why Tim started commenting on Patterico, when he knew Mike K. is already here, and by his own admission had a negative opinion of Patterico.
Nothing prevents Tim from commenting here. However, Tim should take himself a bit less seriously.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:23 pm“Tim McGarry I was prepared to like, but then he started insulting people like Bradley Fikes. Odd.”
Eric – Tim usually shows his true colors at some point during a thread.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:25 pm#145- Of course you did, Show, station, time, transcript, link, please.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:27 pmASPCA @ 9:27pm is the funnist motherfucking post ever in the history of patterico.com
Please show the top-secret edit of the TEA party protester with the kid yelling fascist, asshole. Please post one link ever that backs up your ridiculous assertions.
What an arrogant jerk.
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:30 pmer, funnist. funniest. ah, my “e” key is non-responsive.
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:31 pmThe standards of conduct are awfully strict here if you’re a liberal, it seems. I would not mind if they were applied evenhandedly but the fact is they are not. Perhaps that is why there are so few here other than trolls.
Does this seem a good thing to others here?
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:32 pmCarlitos, I hate it when that happens.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:33 pm#159- Is Hitchen’s still on the wagon? Apparently some time back, after one long bender, he peered in the mirror the morning after and did exactly as you stated.
DCSCA (9d1bb3) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:33 pmMachinist, ASPCA asking for a link to “show, time, transcript, link” is perhaps the unfunniest example of unintentional irony ever. I don’t know how you can post what you just posted given that context. (FYI, he continues to ignore requests for links to a tape that apparently only exists in his … wait for it … VCR!).
I back what I say here with links and facts. When challenged, I respond. I expect the same from the tools who troll here.
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:35 pmAgain, after the RSPCA were seen drunkblogging here a few nights back, they again return to criticize others’ lack of sobriety. Hubris, anyone?
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:37 pmAnd for the record, I don’t think of TMcG as being in the same level as DCSCA. However, TMcG could benefit from those Irish-management courses.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:37 pmcarlitos, I am talking about liberals, not trolls. My position on Dcsca is that he should be ignored. I have said so on this thread. Tim McGarry and Doug are not in the same class.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:39 pm#168 Machinist:
Having been a little more cognizant than usual of the treatment afforded “liberals” recently, I’m going to have to disagree.
What I’ve seen the last few days reinforces my perception that honest debaters are accorded due respect even if not treated with kid gloves, while dishonest participants are sussed out pretty quickly.
It might be that there are some other honest liberals that are put off by the appearance that liberals aren’t accorded any respect here, but that’s a immeasurable supposition.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:42 pmLooks like I had an “n” that ran off with carlitos’ “e.”
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:44 pmSorry, but those people haven’t commented on this thread, and I have been out of town for a while, so i don’t really know what you are talking about.
carlitos (f022c4) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:45 pmMachinist, Doug of course is not a troll. Especially if that’s the doug who had commented on Cathy’s blog.
Discussing global warming is extremely difficult because there are so many aspects to it that anyone can cherry-pick. I would prefer we examine controversial claims one at time, and do them thoroughly, rather than dash helter-skelter across the ontological landscape.
Dismissing the subject as some do by saying it’s arrogant to think man can alter the climate is no answer, it’s a dogma just like the Algorists preach. We need to go to the evidence, pointing out what we know and what we don’t know.
I assume that if we assume for the sake of argument there is man-caused global warming and it threatens serious repercussions, any proposed solution should be the least disruptive to civilization, and quick to deploy.
That’s why I favor geoengineering, pumping particles into the stratosphere to reduce sunlight reaching the earth. For $1 billion a year, we may be able to stop global warming, if it exists. That’s a few orders of magnitude less than the cost of the various plans to reduce carbon emissions. We could remove all those economy-choking limits, or suffer with them at vastly greater expense. Which would you prefer?
And if global warming is not happening, we simply stop injecting the aerosols and the effect fades. There is no damage to the economy from Draconian restrictions and absurd government subsidies for inferior but trendy energy sources. The market can decide where we draw our energy.
I know a lot of people here would rather dismiss the AGW issue entirely as a hoax. But that assumes a level of certainty not justified by our current knowledge. We should be thinking of a solution that minimally invasive to our lives, just in case it’s true. And that would also serve to separate those who are really concerned about climate change from those whose real goal is to cripple the economy and impose socialism.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/24/2009 @ 9:57 pmEW1(SG), that is a matter of opinion on my part I guess and YMMV. I do wonder how many liberals there are regularly commenting on this site who are treated with civility?
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:02 pmBrother Bradley, I don’t think I have an argument with any of your points. I said earlier that I regretted that the issue had been so poisoned by dishonesty that genuine research and debate are very difficult.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:05 pmMachinist,
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:08 pmI like Bjorn Lomborg’s nuanced approach, which considers AGW as one of a number of issues facing humanity. Scientific American treated Lomborg most shamefully, one reason I am not overly grieved by its just-announced rightsizing.
#179 Machinist:
Going by your differentiation above between liberals and trolls, all of them.
#178 Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R.:
I agree, which is why I think geoengineered solutions at this time are a particularly bad idea.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:11 pmI also agree that Lõmberg’s approach has a great deal to recommend it. Prioritizing the problems that humankind faces would tend to push AGW down the list a bit.
Certainly below a barbaric plot to overthrow Western Civilization by world conquest, anyways.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:16 pm“All of them”
That’s an evasive answer, Sir. Aside from Doug and Tim I can think of only one. I may be unfamiliar with others. That is why I asked.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:19 pm#184 Machinist:
There aren’t many honest liberal commenters that I have run across, anywhere. And I’m not including the idealism of youth in that category.
However, all of the honest liberal commenters that I seen here, regular posters or not, have been greeted fairly.
Its not an evasion, but a personal observation, and, as you pointed out, YMMV.
EW1(SG) (e27928) — 4/24/2009 @ 10:30 pmMachinist, I pointed you in the direction of looking at prior posts from the Lefty commenters called Aphrael and Leviticus, who have never been treated badly here, primarily because they came here with good intentions, with the willingness to debate the issues in an honest and intelligent atmosphere, without rancor. They are the example of what you’re describing, and they’ve been treated in kind.
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/25/2009 @ 7:04 amI will also mention that Tim knew exactly what he was getting into when he decided to post here – he knew his motivations were going to be questioned, based on his prior behavior. We’ve seen similar instances from other commenters matriculating over from sites such as ACE and Protein Wisdom, and their reactions of feigned outrage have been part of the same pattern. If they wish to post here, no problem, but to act as if history doesn’t exist is pure folly.
Dmac (1ddf7e) — 4/25/2009 @ 7:08 amDmac,
Thank you Sir. Aphrael is who I had in mind. Leviticus I have seen but not enough to know where he fit in. The last thread I saw Doug post on had rather loose use of words like “moronic” and “ignoramus” but if we include him that would make three. I think I would stand by my remarks though they are certainly debatable and the whole issue gets to personal perspective and preferences. I still feel that if any of the three was as free with personal insults or as lose about their arguments as some of the regulars here they would not be given the pass those same regulars are.
Thank you for sharing your insight as a longer term commenter here. That is what I was asking for.
Machinist (c5fc28) — 4/25/2009 @ 8:59 am