Patterico's Pontifications

Yes, unless it includes a court-administered restructuring. No pols need apply!

And every other crazy proposal that comes along, including the green jobs stimulus, unless it includes production in the US.

Patricia (ee5c9d) — 12/7/2008 @ 7:28 pm

Oh, that would be energy production in the US.

Patricia (ee5c9d) — 12/7/2008 @ 7:28 pm

I think that the GOP should strongly consider a filibuster of a Automaker bailout. But it has to be handled with better public relations than the GOP has done lately.

This is a Union bailout, not an automaker bailout, and it should be cast as such.

SPQR (26be8b) — 12/7/2008 @ 7:31 pm

Not yes, but hell yes.

I am sick to death of these companies bellying up to the taxpayer trough. King Paulson has spent $350 billion of our money, and no one knows where it has gone. Has lending been freed up so that people can even buy a damn vehicle through their banks? Nope. But the banks, knowing they had more money than they will see in a long time, didn’t pass that money on to the people who needed it, they bought other banks with it.

No one cried for the textile workers or the steel mill workers. No one said “Oh gee, let’s bail out the textile industry”.

Giving the auto industry any money is putting a bandaid on a huge, gaping wound.

Let them file Chapter 11. This lame excuse that no one will buy a vehicle from them if they are bankrupt is just stupid. Airlines filed Chapter 11 and people still bought tickets. And if we do give them the money, but the banks are still blocking loans because Hank Paulson doesn’t seem to know shit from Shinola, who’se going to buy all those vehicles?

retire05 (80df7a) — 12/7/2008 @ 7:36 pm

Congress, in its infinite wisdom decided to rob taxpayers of more money to repair the housing crisis. Now they want to take some of the money to spend on a failing industry (American automobiles) to save their union friends.

Sorry, after watching Detroit’s lunch get eaten by Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, VW, and the Yugo, I think the Manufacturers, Unions and Retirees need to go the way of the dinosaur. The country won’t lose jobs, just Union jobs.

SeniorD (420a98) — 12/7/2008 @ 7:55 pm

I’m not in favor of an auto industry bailout. The bailout will only help in the short-term but bankruptcy would do a better job at solving the automakers’ long-term problems. Still, I’m leery of anything Richard Shelby proposes and I hope other GOP Senators get involved.

DRJ (b4db3a) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:04 pm

This is a Union bailout, not an automaker bailout, and it should be cast as such.

…funny how our President-elect wants to make it easier for unions to organize.

Comment by retire05 — 12/7/2008 @ 7:36 pm

I could not agree more.

Dana (79a78b) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:05 pm

But it has to be handled with better public relations than the GOP has done lately.

They’re not capable of that. The Dems/unions/media will put autoworkers on TV telling everyone the Republicans Scrooges are trying to make them homeless just in time for XMAS! In no time at all polls would show 65% or more favoring the bailout. End of fillibuster.

Gerald A (adb85a) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:30 pm

Unless they are going to layoff the non-value adding dead beats and take a 50% paycut, the answer is YES.

Are their high paying jobs more important than ours? Why should I protect their wages when I make less?

jk (8cfb7a) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:36 pm

Even though one recent poll showed up to 60% not favoring a bailout of Detroit, I think over the long run the Republicans, should they hamstring attempts to end the misery of American auto manufacturers (and, in turn, all their ultra-unionized employees), will look like “Herbert Hoover” redux.

And I say that with a recently acquired knowledge that President Hoover back around the time of the great crash of Wall Street actually wasn’t such a laissez-faire, survival-of-the-fittest libertarian/conservative as anti-Republican, pro-Democrat-Party propagandists would like the public to believe. And, in turn, with a greater awareness that Franklin Roosevelt was surprisingly ineffective in turning around high rates of unemployment and the statistical malaise of the Great Depression in general.

Mark (411533) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:41 pm

If they don’t, I’m showing up on doorsteps with very angry signs…

Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:42 pm

Why hand Obama a political victory. Just vote NO and then spend the next fours years talking about the Bailout basically is a Union payback, they basically bought votes and it cost us 25 billions, Corruption and Failed Obama policies is what the last four years are about …… including the investment bank bailout.

Da'Shiznit (089453) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:49 pm

Absolutely yes. No Detroit bailout. Chapter 11 restructuring and get out from under the union thumb.

Proponents of a Detroit bailout keep raising the straw man of “if the auto companies go bankrupt all these jobs will be lost… auto parts, carpet, floor mats”

But that is a straw man. Even if a company goes out of business, that doesn’t mean the cars that company made disappear. One can still purchase parts for Studebakers, Pierce Arrows, Nashes, Packards and more. Even obsolete nameplates from companies that are currently in business like Edsel and Oldsmobile…

Auto parts and carpet for in the cars will still be needed, maybe not for as many cars, or all from Detroit, but they’ll still be needed for cars built in the USA.

They say that people won’t buy cars from companies in bankruptcy because of warranty issues. There are many third party warranty companies who would be thrilled to provide warranties and get more business.

Chrysler isn’t even a public company. They could go public, selling stock to raise cash. And isn’t the Daimler part of Daimler Chrysler German? Should the US Government be bailing out a foreign car company?

Let the Detroit automakers declare bankruptcy and restructure without the unsustainable union requirements. Let the Detroit automakers be able to level the playing field with the foreign automakers here on American soil that hire American workers.

kimsch (2ce939) — 12/7/2008 @ 8:54 pm

You folks are wrong. If the auto cos declare Chapter 11, whatever is left of their sales will disappear overnight. No one will buy a car from a company if there is even the slightest doubt that they will be around to honor warranties or furnish spare parts. The numerous parts and component suppliers who rely on the auto industry for their bread and butter — but who also supply other industries — will be on the ropes. If their main customer (GM) is in Chapter 11, the banks will be stingy with credit. They in turn will have to pay their raw materials suppliers with cash on delivery, as they won’t have credit. Soon those companies will start to go belly up, and so on down the chain. It took the Repubs decades to regain control in Congress after the fiasco of the 29 market crash and the depression. If they let the car cos go bust, with all the collateral damage that will entail, they’ll be back in exile as the ineffective minority party for another 40 years or so.

sam (a66070) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:17 pm

I don’t know what area the credit freeze is in, but my banks (and Ford) sends me mail all the time saying I have $XXXX available to purchase a new truck.

Lately it seems the housing bust is only in a few democrat controlled states (about 15) and not nationwide.

More proof that if you read it in a Lame Stream Media paper or heard it from one of the democrat talking heads, aka reporters, then take it with a grain of salt.

The democrats set out in 2001 to destroy the economy (with the idea they could fix it quick) and promised exactly that in 2006 with the ‘put us in charge’ and we’ll change the direction of the country. Someone did it in Jan 2007 with the stock Market around 12,500 and unemployment at 4.5%. They totally destroyed the economy in two years to get complete control of the country. Now they don’t have the slighest idea of how to fix it. Well I guess they will balance the budget by taxing cow and pig farts as their weenies in the Extra small Piss Ant brain (EPA) office are proposing to do.

Meanwhile the global warming continues, it’s 15 degrees in the south tonight, about 30 degrees below normal. That should add to 2008 as the coldest year in 10 years or so.

Like a dead fish, they’re lies are floating to the top and stinking up the place.

Scrapiron (dda662) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:31 pm

Sam, the Big 3’s business model with the unions as currently set up is not sustainable. A bailout only delays the inevitable.

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1f5390) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:42 pm

It is high time the GOP adopted, as a whole, the moniker given Jesse Helms: “Senator No.”

The country is entirely screwed for the next two years, and probably longer. If the GOP takes a stand now and goes against the spending en masse, when the “solutions” (aka spending) fail and the electorate is on the hook for trillions, they will more quickly gain back relevance with the average voter.

If the GOP acquiesces in their usual and customary statesman-like manner, it only furthers the time it can hope to reclaim either chamber, let alone the White House.

Sam – backing the warranties of the car buyers would be a no-brainer vote and adopted with near-unanimity by the government. This is one I would actually go for, so long as the Detroit Three filed irrevocable Chapter 11 papers. The cost/reward ratio is incredibly favorable in this limited instance.

Ed (957a32) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:44 pm

kimsch, Daimler sold its stake in Chrysler. I’ll give you one guess why.

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (1f5390) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:44 pm

filibuster that turkey, until the next election is necessary. not one dollar for incompetence.

no more bailouts.

you want to boost the economy?

1. reduce or eliminate the capital gains tax.
2. cut income taxes.
3. cut federal, state & local government spending.
4. exploit US energy reserves.
5. support free trade.

redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:48 pm

ah, thanks Paul!

kimsch (2ce939) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:52 pm

dear sam i am (#14): put down the union supplied crack pipe. you’re just plain wrong.

the economy stayed dead all those years because of that great Demoncrat, FDR, with his high taxes and big spending, not because of the Republicans.

FDR killed the economy for years, not Hoover.

the Demoncrats in Congress caused the mortgage crash, and the UAW is killing the Big 3, just as surely as metastatic cancer kills it’s otherwise healthy host.

redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/7/2008 @ 9:58 pm

No bailout without chapter 11 filing. Court-supervised reorganization is the only hope at this point of saving those companies, because only a court can dictate terms to the UAW, and the Big 3 can’t be saved without major UAW concessions.

Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 12/7/2008 @ 10:03 pm

Redc: the economy had already been dead for years at the time that Roosevelt became President.

If you wish to argue that economic policies which amounted to government intervention in the economy were what caused the Depression, I think you need to argue that it was Hoover’s progressivism (and, despite the fact that neither side wishes to remember this, he *was* considered to be a progressive prior to 1932) which caused the Depression.

aphrael (9e8ccd) — 12/7/2008 @ 10:19 pm

SPQR is correct. It is a union bailout and the Republican need to sell it as such.

Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 12/7/2008 @ 10:41 pm

Should the Republicans filibuster the auto bailout?

In a word…YES!

There is NO WAY that, what would be a union bailout, is warranted, or useful.

My words…kill ’em, and kill ’em all…the unions I mean.

Love your “live preview” feature. ;o)

kakypat (9c5d86) — 12/7/2008 @ 11:35 pm

I’m currently in the market for a vehicle, and the two makes I’m considering at Toyota and Ford. Frankly, the fact that Ford is claiming they are incapable of surviving on their own makes me wonder if they will honor their warranty.

It’s already too late for a bailout to prevent people from bailing on Ford and the other 2 big Detroit automakers.

You can’t tell me that bankruptcy is bad because it scares away customers. Ford, GM, and Dodge have already convinced me to avoid them for years.

Juan (4cdfb7) — 12/7/2008 @ 11:46 pm

Shelby is a shill for foreign automakers. This son-of-the-south is anti-union and anti-American. Warner Bros had him pegged years ago– Foghorn Leghorn.

They’re doing this backasswards. Here’s how to bailout the United States auto and finance industries: 1. set up a ‘Debt Relief Account’ for every American with a SS# over 18 and/or with 1 auto registered in the USA. 2. Deposit $50,000 in the account- $25,000 for auto relief; $25,000 for bank relief. 3. Let INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS use the $25,000 to directly purchase ONE GM, FORD or CHRYSLER AUTO ONLY, within a 6 month window using ONLY that account. 4. Use the other $25,000 to pay off specific banking loans, credit cards and so on FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

You know they can do this. If they can track satellites to Neptune, run Rovers on Mars, trace your car vin number, tap your phones and direct deposit a SS check, the government can do it. Bailing out banks and car companies from the top down is idiotic.

DCSCA (d8da01) — 12/7/2008 @ 11:59 pm

and when i don’t but that Big 3 vehicle because all they make is crap that i don’t want, 7what happens?

besides, even between the 6 element and i, we don’t have 25K of debt,except the house note, and that’s not leveraged. we bought *inside* our means…..

where’s *our* bailout?

frag the UAW and the Big 3.

redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/8/2008 @ 12:41 am

The fact is, the big 3 are paying $73. per hour in wages and benefits to build their cars.

Meanwhile, honda,BMW, toyota and nissan are paying $48. per hour in wages and benefits to build their cars in USA auto plants.

This translates into over $2000. per car, it is not sustainable and until the big 3 get their worker wages in line with other auto producers, congress will just be throwing tax payer money away.

Mitt Romney argues that giving Detroit money is a sure fire way to destroy the american auto industry. Much better to let them declare bankruptcy, face the realities of the market place and get their costs inline with other producers.

I think Romney is correct.

james conrad (6bb6e6) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:33 am

Recently the single largest supplier of marine propulsion units went bankrupt, was forced to sell everything and that company, under different ownership, fixed the problems, and still operates under two of the global trade names they purchased. Evinrude and Johnson.

Oh and they no longer desire to support the entire global demand for ancient products or parts. Some are available, and more on the secondary market, for a time. There is a point where get on with life will come into force for those still using antiques. But such is a consumer choice.

Not all went well with the transformation, customers desiring good product for the crap they had purchased. Some got stung, but today, BRP produces what many call the best outboard/marine propulsion units ever built.

I’m not a union hater, but can look at the influence of unions, specifically at the auto unions as a direct cause of massive profit drain upon the big three. But the very reason for unions in the past has indeed passed. I’ve many ties into the coal industry and watched as the unions came into that industry, there was a problem, today not so much so. The presence of unions created positive change when it was needed. Then spent the next 70 years collecting dues and making excessive demands upon the providers of the real revenue.

Current union auto workers get that $32 wage and another $40 is costed for those no longer producing anything!

I figure that WallMart is the ultimate answer. They love bragging about how they employ the second largest number of folks right next to the federal government, but don’t seem as proud if you point out to them that their $7 average wage with zero bennies can’t really compare to the feds $25 plus all sorts of bennies. But ta hell with that.

Wally world cars!

Think about it.

Besides with another 3 million out of work and NOT paying taxes, nothing but good can eventually come from that, right? If the govt is actually starved for revenue, that should get their attention.

TC (0b9ca4) — 12/8/2008 @ 2:41 am

Instead of giving the auto industry loans, why not give them orders for fuel efficient vehicles? The government fleet of gas hogs could be replaced with American made hybrids or other fuel efficient vehicles. Funds could be given to state and local governments to replace their fleets as well. This would be favored by both the unions and wall street, give the taxpayers something of value for their money, keep the government out of the auto business and satisfy the environmental folks all at the same time.

Nancy from Michigan (edae0a) — 12/8/2008 @ 2:50 am

No bailouts to the Big 3 or anyone else.

We’ve owned cars by all of the Big 3 within the past 3 years. Never again. Right now we have a Honda and a VW. I won’t fund unions, their pensions and benefits, or the Big 3’s political shenanigans. Let them go bankrupt and let Honda, Toyota, et. al. hire the workers sans unions. We’ll still make cars in this country.

BREAK the unions, don’t bail them out! The GOP has to do what’s right. 61% of the country is against bailing out the Big 3, but a filibuster would be the right thing to do in any case.

Peg C. (48175e) — 12/8/2008 @ 3:48 am

Absolutely not (filibuster). The car companies have a golden future making catalytic converters for cow and pig flatulence to save the Earth from greenhouse gases. And I don’t know why they could not fit them to humans too. Let’s not be shortsighted. Or penny-wise and pound-foolish. Or throw out the baby with the bathwater. Or bite our nose to spite our face. Think of the children.

nk (5a0e72) — 12/8/2008 @ 8:25 am

I see a lot of folks want Sen. Shelby to fall on a sword for them. Again, I must ask: What will YOU, PERSONALLY, DO to help Sen. Shelby when he gets the media crapstorm he surely would get if he tried this crazy stunt? You want him to die on this hill for you; how will you take care of his family? (Of course, by family, I mean the GOP and its elected officials.)

Your silence speaks volumes.

Brad S (9f6740) — 12/8/2008 @ 10:13 am

Comment by nk — 12/8/2008 @ 8:25 am

Actually, the Big-3 don’t make catalytic converters, they buy catalytic converters.

For humans, we would need, in abundance, the political-model,
which would take care of noxious emissions from both ends.

And remember, CO-2 has been declared an environmental pollutant, and would need to be controlled.
Anyone have any idea how we stop the emitting of CO-2 by people?
Other than their assuming room temperature?

Another Drew (e451ab) — 12/8/2008 @ 11:03 am

Why not free the auto makers from most of the Government imposed regulation?

As a Hot Rodder, I can tell you mechanically what is wrong with Detroit Iron, but the government prevents them from changing. IE. Retrofit kits to allow older cars to use E-85.

Actually, the after market has a lot of useful parts that upgrade your wheels. I put 2000 Mustang brakes on my 97 T-Bird for better stopping. They were bolt in!

I made changes to the transmission using existing parts to make the tranny shift quicker and more efficiently. I also installed an transmission cooler to lengthen the life of the transmission.

I installed underdrive pulleys to get 2 MPG more for my mainly in town driving.

There is more I can do that Detroit is prevented from doing by our Government. Therefore, I say get the Government off the Big 3’s back.

PCD (7fe637) — 12/8/2008 @ 11:16 am

In a word, yes. But, they need to get out in front of it and explain why, something they have been woefully inept at doing.

JD (059bab) — 12/8/2008 @ 12:41 pm

JD, why don’t you help the GOP lawmakers with their “explanation” issues? I’m sure that they’d be willing to have a few more PR hands like yourself.

But then, you’re just a mere blog commenter, and you take no responsibility for the positions you espouse.

Brad S (9f6740) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:04 pm

Nancy,
From what I’ve read, the Volt still has problems and costs $40,000 to purchase. It’s sort of throwing good money after bad.
Oh, wait, we’re doing that anyway.

Just steal Toyota’s patents and make a reliable car!

Patricia (94c68d) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:16 pm

Yup, Brad S. Keep pushing that meme. You are winning friends and influencing people, I tell you.

JD (059bab) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:30 pm

redc1c4– You wont buy a FREE car with tax $? You’re a fool If the $ isnt used it goes back to thwe Treasury. Conservativism is dead. It’s 30 year run has killed hope, capitalism and people. Khrushchev had it right. as Gorbachev said over Reagan’s body at his funeral, “We will bury you.”

DCSCA (d8da01) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:34 pm

I see, conservatives love bailing out banks with $850 billion but will let the auto industry founder? Howzabout the LA Times? Wanna bail them out too? No? Howzabout Fox Snooze? Jeez. Thank God conservativism is dead.

DCSCA (d8da01) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:37 pm

Henry Ford had the right idea with the Model T but somewhere it went wrong and I suspect that it is because of the higher automobile speeds. We need a national speed limit of 25, with a mandatory prison sentence of one year per mile for those who violate it. That way the Big Three can build cars which are safe and fuel efficient and can compete with the Japanese. Maybe.

nk (5a0e72) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:54 pm

Conservativism is dead.

The Leftists love pushing this meme. Baracky wins the Presidency in a year where the incumbent party is universally disliked, has a severe economic crisis, a lousy R candidate, and Teh Chosen One running for the Dems, yet he still only got around 54% of the vote. Yet, the Leftists declare 46% of the country dead. Interesting logic.

JD (059bab) — 12/8/2008 @ 1:58 pm

Comment by DCSCA — 12/8/2008 @ 1:37 pm

That’s right!
We should have bailed out GM/Ford/Chrysler, and let Wall Street fail.
Of course, who’s going to finance that auto-loan for you?
No Banks, No Loans, No car sales!

Any other great financial insights you want to float for us?

Another Drew (e451ab) — 12/8/2008 @ 2:07 pm

JD–

Conservatism isn’t dead, it just lost the last election. Deservedly so, being hijacked by the people who don’t care one whit about economics, free markets or small government. The time for a filibuster was back in January when that ~~free money~~ tax rebate bill was being considered.

But, wait, that was the CONSERVATIVE bill…

Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 12/8/2008 @ 11:51 pm

lol… GM is a bank. They led the banking crisis with their ditech.com (GMAC) NINJA loans. They already got plenty of bailout and there’s little distinction between them and Fannie Mae.

Kevin Murphy is right… it isn’t over just because we lost an election. Our efforts have been protracted, but Mccain and Obama were neither champions of conservatism and this election was about foreign policy and Mccain’s support of the bailout (and Obama’s persona).

The dems lost everything in 2000. They got it back and we’ll get it back. That’s how it works. None of us have any idea what the voters will be concerned with in 2 years, but I bet they will be plenty concerned.

Juan (4cdfb7) — 12/9/2008 @ 12:30 am

I’m a Democrat, but of course the Republicans should do anything they can to stop this joke of a plan.

Given all of the recent criticism of the auto industry, I’m surprised that our leadership hasn’t broadened this critique to include all of our industries and sectors.

Americans love to pat ourselves on the back and boast about how we work harder than anybody in the world, but do we work smarter? Maybe this crisis is exactly what we need to get back to… the basics of business management.

Let’s face it, our prosperous last few years, whether inflated by a manipulated stock market or not, have accustomed us to windfall profits and easy credit. This has UNDOUBTEDLY affected the way we do business at ALL management levels, not just at the top. It’s made us soft and too comfortable.

As Obama said referring to his plans for the budget… “we should get our best bang for the buck.” If my business was suffering as a result of the economic downturn, before asking for a hand-out or increase in my credit line, I could re-examine my budget and bottom line.

For one, I could review all of my vendors. Maybe one of my vendors is a huge multi-national corporation but my needs could be just as met, and for a better price by going with a local provider.

If I sign a contract with a more affordable vendor I am saving my company money, forcing the vendor I left to work harder for my business and helping stimulate growth with my new vendor. I mean, isn’t this what business is all about, making money while saving money?

Consider the offsite storage business. If you could only imagine how much small to medium sized businesses lose each year just by storing their records in public storage facilities it would make your job drop.

I recently switched a client from using pubic storage at $600/month to a commercial facility which only costs him $75/month. He was thrilled. That money is best spent elsewhere.

Another perfect example of this is the software industry, basically still taking advantage of a world still very unfamiliar with the true value of its products and services. I’m in the Document Management business and will tell you that the majority of my competitors are ridiculously overpriced. My company was actually created as a response to a consulting client of mine who complained about the true value of the software they were being pitched.

My software, and my business, ShortcutSpace, is a response to the governments insistence on rewarding failure. It’s just killing our national business philosophy headline by headline.

This problem doesn’t need a bailout, It’s about an attitude adjustment. And sometimes the only way to get somebody to change their attitude is to stop treating them like a baby.

Rafael Moscatel
ShortcutSpace, Inc. Simplified Document Management

Rafael Moscatel (905a27) — 12/9/2008 @ 10:35 am

Comment by Juan — 12/9/2008 @ 12:30 am

Actually, GMAC/Ditech is currently owned by the same people that own Chrylser:
Cererbus Capital Mgmt.
They bought 51% from GM in 11/06.

Another Drew (0c4ac4) — 12/9/2008 @ 11:06 am

The economy is made of money and widgets. Money only has value as long as someone is willing to exchange it for a widget. I cannot see how is ok to give 750B to paper shufflers and not 18B to widget builders. It is also a stretch to call 18B to the auto makers a bailout when the collective tax contribution of the auto industry over the years is in the trillions. Without the widget builders the US wouldn’t exist.
It is ok to tie strings to any loan to make sure they dont build cars to sit in dealer’s lots or force us to depend on OPEC, but that is a fight for the future. At the moment giving them back 18B from the trillions they have paid over years to the government is a small price to avoid 10% unemployment and a bugget burden well in excess of 18B should they go under.

criollo (4818db) — 12/11/2008 @ 1:59 pm

criollo, the reason for putting money to the “paper shufflers” is so that the credit markets will work for all the widget makers. This is obvious to anyone who really considers the differences between the credit market program and the proposed bailout of the failed UAW business model.

It is not a “stretch” to call the auto makers bailout a bailout – because it is not being offered to all auto makers. It is only being offered to bailout the UAW’s failed biz plan.

SPQR (72771e) — 12/11/2008 @ 2:08 pm

At the most basic level the economy is controlled by money and widgets. The government prints the money and everybody else builds widgets. Prices are determined by the ratio of money to widgets. If widgets go up prices go down, if money goes down prices go down. If widgets disappear prices go up, if new money is printed prices go up. Unless money disappears due to unnatural causes, (fire at a bank, a mattress full of cash, Al Capone’s Vault, etc) its normal life goes from printing to generating economic activity to returning to the government in the form of tax where it dies and is replaced by a clone and put back in circulation.
We have a great history of building the greatest widgets in the world. The paper shufflers job is to keep the money in circulation and they are not doing their job causing the mess in which we find ourselves.
Seems that the present government is more interested in turning all of us into paper shufflers and letting the rest of the world build the widgets.
Quickest route to the collective poor house (probably a plastic hut made in China).

criollo (4818db) — 12/11/2008 @ 2:26 pm

criollo, government subsidy of failed business models is not going to help the US economy. Companies like Honda and Toyota make cars at a profit in manufacturing plants within the US. GM as an example makes cars at a loss. No bailout for failed biz plans.

SPQR (72771e) — 12/11/2008 @ 2:33 pm

Comment by criollo — 12/11/2008 @ 2:26 pm

Well, then you have two ways to demonstrate your committment to this country:
1, as the Vice-President Elect has propounded, it is your Patriotic duty to pay more taxes; and,
2, as you advocate, whatever is left over you should dedicate to the consumption of widgets so as to save the economy.

Another Drew (3a8a2c) — 12/11/2008 @ 2:35 pm

Difficult to say that Honda and Toyota in the US are not subsidized companies. The states where they set shop give them all the tax breaks in the world and let them dump their health cost on the rest of the tax payers. It is difficult to compare apples to apples.
However, you cannot fault these states because the companies generate employment and produce widgets well in excess of the subsidies. Honda and Toyota are also good guys because they bring money back that left via the trade deficit.

criollo (4818db) — 12/11/2008 @ 2:54 pm

The Republican filibuster of the loan for the auto manufactuerers was a HUGE mistake. They will lose big time in the next election cycle for voting against American jobs.

The anti-union faction they are trying to appease is a tiny minority of anti-American zealots who care more about their ideology than the welfare of the American economy or American citizens. They would GLADLY cause 2 million Americans to lose their jobs just to push their rabid anti-union ideology.

Kyle (826572) — 12/12/2008 @ 9:43 am

Kyle, since the UAW refuses to renegotiate their contracts until 3 years from now, it appears to be the UAW that is willing to see jobs lost rather than compromise their zealots.

SPQR (72771e) — 12/12/2008 @ 9:49 am

criollo, Toyota and Honda do not dump their health care costs on taxpayers. That’s a bizarre invention on your part. Toyota and Honda’s american workers earn enough to pay for health insurance.

SPQR (72771e) — 12/12/2008 @ 9:50 am

THE US TAXPAYER MUST IMMEDIATELY SUBSIDIZE THE BIG 3 AND THE UAW !!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventy11!!!

JD (6a82b7) — 12/12/2008 @ 9:58 am

yeah, right (lol)
Uninsured population % statistics:

UAW states:
Michigan 12%
Ohio 12%
Pennsylvania 11%
—
Non-UAW states
Tennessee 14%
Texas 25%
South Carolina 16%
Georgia 18%
—
Who do you think pays when they show up at the emergency room?

criollo (4818db) — 12/12/2008 @ 3:07 pm

criollo, why do you think that the UAW represents the entire population of a state?

BTW, if you did not know it, lots of people can afford health insurance and decide that buying videogames, cellular telephones for their children and other frivolities are more important to them. That’s why the numbers about “uninsured” are so meaningless.

SPQR (72771e) — 12/12/2008 @ 3:23 pm

12/7/2008

Should Republicans Filibuster an Auto Industry Bailout?

61 Responses to “Should Republicans Filibuster an Auto Industry Bailout?”

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