Mumbai Terrorism and Revenge
[Guest post by DRJ]
The Indian doctors at the Mumbai hospital where the dead Jewish hostages were taken say the hostages were tortured:
“The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: “Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,” he said.”
The dead terrorists at the Jewish Center were also mutilated:
“The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. “Their faces were beyond recognition.”
There was no way of identifying them,” he said. Asked how, if this is the case, they knew the bodies were indeed those of the terrorists, he said: “The security forces that brought the bodies told us that those were the bodies of the terrorists,” he said, adding there was no other way they could have identified the bodies.
An intelligence agency source added: “One of the terrorists was shot through either eye.”
A senior National Security Guard officer, who had earlier explained the operation in detail to rediff.com, said the commandos went all out after they ascertained that there were no more hostages left. When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: “Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?”
One of the reasons terrorism is so dangerous to society is that it targets innocents in ways that are both cruel and public. This not only enrages us but also makes us feel powerless, feelings that are more likely to lead to revenge against the terrorists and those who help them. And who, indeed, will want to save them?
— DRJ
India has death by hanging for crimes that are “the rarest of the rare”, which this one seems to qualify as. Too bad for the guy they captured, who “didn’t want to die.”
Of course, India’s use of the death penalty is less and less frequent. Since crimes are becoming more horrific in India, and the “rarest of the rare” is applied “on the curve”, few crimes rise to the level of the death penalty. Positive feedback. Likely the next time this happens it won’t be eligible for the death penalty.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 11/30/2008 @ 1:48 pmThis not only enrages us but also makes us feel powerless, feelings that are more likely to lead to revenge against the terrorists and those who help them.
Every properly raised child knows how to control their feelings.
parsnip (1e884c) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:07 pmI don’t even need to make the obvious statement about #2, I imagine.
Eric Blair (8f93a0) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:13 pmLook at the “life” sentences handed out to heinous terrorists by the caring and nurturing Europeans. Serve a few years and then take a walk. Israelis are ok with releasing large numbers of arab terrorists even in exchange for a few dead Israeli soldiers taken hostage.
I know some will say we cannot stoop to the levels of Islamofascists, but dead scum show no recidivism. I’m sure plenty of enlightened people would love to give civil rights to people who saw off heads or torture, rape and kill children. Oh, we need to study them psychologically to understand their motivations or maybe they grew up all wrong and that should be a mitigating factor? What a crock. We have a war of civilizations going on with the Muslims using our own technology to destroy us in their own desire to turn the clcok back to their own glory days.
madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:14 pmA friend gave me this spiel about what Thanksgiving means to her… how the white man destroyed Indian (with a feather) civilization. I know our ancestors did some really bad things. I know the American army slaughtered plenty of Filapinos over 100 years ago, but why does that mean we should accept the horrors of the religion of peace now? If they cannot act civilized, kill them and take their damn oil, etc.
M. Gandhi took on the colonial British in non-violent disobedience. But he also urged Jews to go along with the Final Solution and their own genocide. Yes, we are so civilized and yet tolerate genocides in places like the Sudan and Rwanda. Is there no one on this planet who will actually stand up to Islam? Religion of peace, my ass.
They only know brutality.They only laugh at civilized nations who grant them constitutional rights..
Dennis D (ae900a) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:20 pmI’m having a hard time feeling bad about this, regarding the vengence inacted by the counter-terrorist forces.
And veggie, I wonder… DOes that mean you have little respect for Rahm Emmanuel?
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:25 pmLet them hang in front of the local mosque!
It seems to me that some 300 friendly little madrassas should go up in smoke. One for each innocent bystander killed.
The Madrassas are all over the world and they all teach hatred and develop fine little terrorists.
They should be “poofed”
Typical White Person (b52059) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:29 pmEvery properly raised child knows how to control their feelings.
Guess that leaves you out, “parsnip.”
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:35 pmEvery properly raised child knows how to control their feelings.
I believe your time here abusing the cognitive thought process is now at an end.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/30/2008 @ 2:48 pmWhat does “properly raised” entail? Were Ayers and Dorhn properly raised? We all know people who had a real tough time growing up, with little parental guidance or love and yet did ok or at least never hurt other people. But for whatever reason, some people are shown every consideration, are showered with attention and affection and turn out to be right assholes. One example is experimenting with drugs despite parental chastisement against same. Knew a dude whose son was a filthy hard drug abuser who stole big time from his own parents. Finally he burgled a place outside Philly, killing a wealthy elderly couple and their housekeeper. As far as I know he still sits on death row in Pa.
madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 11/30/2008 @ 3:00 pmDoesn’t it make sense that kissing young reprobates’ asses only encourages more antisocial behavior. How would terrorists “feel” if their own relatives were kidnaped, tortured and beheaded? Even in America we seal juvenile records, bend over backwards to show empathy for sociopathic teenage murderous scum; instead of treating them like adults and throwing the book at them.
Every properly raised child knows how to control their feelings.
Must feelings always be controlled? Absolutely not. Our feelings are also our instincts, and we must not always fight our instincts. Control sometimes puts us in danger.
MayBee (995268) — 11/30/2008 @ 3:16 pmkilling muslim terrorists before, during or after one of their attacks is actually embracing multicultural understanding at it’s most basic level.
those who plan and commit these acts do so because they are, in their world view, fulfilling the will of their god, in anticipation of eternal reward for said actions. by killing them, we are giving that reward, and therefor killing them is actually a good thing, whereas keeping them alive is the worst sort of torture. only a cold, shallow, uncaring person could be so cruel.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 11/30/2008 @ 3:27 pmas for the terrorist bodies being “mutilated”, it’s quite possible that what the doctors were seeing was the usual results from the average human body being subjected to multiple grenade (and other sources)explosions, as well as small arms fire, at close range.
however, given the low level of training evidenced by the India forces i observed on TV, it’s possible someone decided on payback.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 11/30/2008 @ 3:30 pm,i>Must feelings always be controlled? Absolutely not.
Once in a while maybe, but not for eight straight years, Maybee.
parsnip (1e884c) — 11/30/2008 @ 3:57 pmOnce in a while maybe, but not for eight straight years, Maybee.
Que?
MayBee (995268) — 11/30/2008 @ 4:31 pmThe actions of the Indian forces in killing and mutiliating the terrorists is obviously only going to create more terrorists.
(my parsnip impression)
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/30/2008 @ 4:42 pmMaybee, in case you haven’t noticed, we’ve had a leader who prides himself on letting his lizard brain make complex decsions for the past eight years.
I commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.
parsnip (1e884c) — 11/30/2008 @ 4:47 pm#16:”The actions of the Indian forces in killing and mutiliating the terrorists….”
tossing a few frags into a small room and then using many bursts of full auto fire is not mutilation…. it’s just poor training.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 11/30/2008 @ 4:50 pmShe didn’t notice because it didn’t happen, alphie.
Rob Crawford (b5d1c2) — 11/30/2008 @ 4:52 pm“I commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.”
dear parsnip: what you saw as “measured response” was massive incompetence, lack of realistic training and a total failure of command and control.
it’s painfully obvious that the Indians have never adopted or trained on the ICS method of disaster response and management, and it was even more obvious that none of the forces were integrated, let alone properly trained and equipped for the missions they were performing.
among other weapons you would not expect to see used here in the US in the environment where this occurred was a Russian 30mm belt fed grenade launcher (think Mk-19) which they fired from an unsecured tripod emplaced on a hard surface, which guarantees that your accuracy is for shit.
i also saw someone running around with a Carl Gustav (84mm RCLR), which is more suitable for attacking AFV’s than hotel rooms.
individual Indian responders may have been brave, but that’s no substitute for competence.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:02 pmI commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.
You’re commending a monumental failure of intelligence and response?
I know, I know: who’d a thunk they’d avoid the metal detectors and waltz in using a transporter?
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:03 pmThe Indians killed or captured all the terrorists and kept the civilians casualties to a minimum.
Close enough for all but the most juvenile of armchair generals.
parsnip (1e884c) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:14 pmOnce again, Partisnip Hack gives us a sterling example of thought processes free of the constraints of discipline, study, responsibility and ethics and a brain impenetrable to evidence, reason, logic or fact.
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:20 pmComment by parsnip — 11/30/2008 @ 5:14 pm
Only one of the terrorists was captured alive, all the others were killed.
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:26 pmNo one has any idea how many of the civilian deaths were due to terrorists actions, or were collateral damage in the attempts of Indian Security Forces to regain control of the situation.
Many early reports claim that the Indians were very undisciplined in their fire, and that many of the civilian casualties were the result of Indian fire.
The wounds described by the doctors could very well be the result of security forces making sure that everyone was dead – much easier to put several rounds into the head than to check for a pulse.
Comment by Paul (creator of “Staunch Brayer”) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:20 pm
…thoughts….brain….?????
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:27 pm…thoughts….brain….?????
Gotta be one there, AD, otherwise we’d hear the ear whistle.
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:30 pmI commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.
Yes, an outstanding effort – let’s tally up the numbers, shall we? Over 200 civilian dead at this point, and the latest accounting of terrorists is somewhere north of only 20. A major metropolitan center was under seige for over two full days, and the local Jewish center was effectively held hostage and the residents were summarily tortured extensively before they were finally put to death. There is now a blueprint for effective future terrorist actions with minimal manpower required – all for the rest of the world to suffer. Job well done!
Dmac (e30284) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:48 pmComment by Paul (creator of “Staunch Brayer”) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:30 pm
Amoeba, or Gromia sphaerica?
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:48 pmAmoeba, or Gromia sphaerica?
Gromia sphaerica, definitely. Gromia sphaerica are mostly filled with stercomata (waste pellets), which aptly describes Partisnip Hack’s comments.
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:54 pmIt will be a sad day for parsnip when Obama bombs the ever-loving crap out of Waziristan.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:54 pm“I commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.”
harelip – But somehow, when the U.S. kills terrorists, the only reaction from the U.S. left is pants pissing fear that it will create more terrorists.
Why the difference?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:55 pmI have seen violence up close. My right hand is still sore from being briefly tortured. I have seen the veneer of morality and civilization rip itself away, and the view is ugly. A friend told me I had stared too long into the eye of the beast.
I cannot condemn the Indian security forces for doing what many of us would have done in their situation.
James (9307fe) — 11/30/2008 @ 5:57 pmI believe “The Left” thinks we create more terrorists when our military kills innocent civilians, daley.
parsnip (1e884c) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:03 pmComment by James — 11/30/2008 @ 5:57 pm
The only repeat offender they have to worry about is the one guy who gave himself up.
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:05 pmWonder how long he’ll survive in an Indian penal colony?
Comment by parsnip — 11/30/2008 @ 6:03 pm
Well, perhaps our troops take a “Catholic” view of people – no one is innocent, we’re all guilty of something.
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:06 pmI believe “The Left” thinks we create more terrorists when our military kills innocent civilians, daley.
With such thinking, “The Left” becomes useful idiots.
Why do you think terrorist ignore virtually all lawful combatant aspects of international law that insure the safety of innocent civilians?
Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (b63e53) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:15 pmI take all these reports with a slight grain of salt. Of course if you are shot at point blank range or if you are destroyed by a grenade you will be “beyond recognition.” Torture…mutilation…I don’t know.
I’m glad they killed most of them. I’m sure some got away, and I hope they find them. The one left alive seems to be singing, so that is all they need.
Patricia (ee5c9d) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:16 pmThe moonbats only have one equation regarding the rules of combat for terrorists: the US can only operate under the Marquis Du Queensbury Rules, while they’re free to torture and maim as they please.
Dmac (e30284) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:18 pmSounds like the Indians summarily executed a bunch of the dirtbags (just like they’ve been doing for years in Kashmir).
Good.
The only reason to keep terrorists alive is to question them under the most heinous form of torture…and then kill them after you’ve pried every bit of information out of them that you can.
Dave Surls (a406e7) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:52 pmWith talk like that Dave, you’ll never get another A-list invite to an Upper-East Side/Malibu/Marin party.
Another Drew (bb6514) — 11/30/2008 @ 6:55 pmDon’t you feel deprived?
I know I do… They have GREAT drugs at those parties…
Cause pot is from the EARTH, man…
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 11/30/2008 @ 7:36 pmNew York, Washington, Madrid, Bali, London, Mumbai, The Netherlands, The Phillipenes, Thailand, etc, etc, etc.
Peter (ce69ff) — 11/30/2008 @ 7:45 pmAt some point even the Left should realize that Islam does not play well with others.
The moderate Muslims we’ve waited so long do not act. The wealthy Muslims who finance this disgusting murder are never in danger.
This stuff would stop tomorrow if we leveled a city every time ONE person was killed by these whackos. Well, not tomorrow, they seem to be slow learners. Start with Islamabad. Then Riyadh. Damascus. Those towns in “palestine” where they danced in the streets on 9/11. Just pick Islamic towns and cities and level them until the movers and shakers of the Muslim world decide to play nice. The Parsnips of the world can blame my reptillion brain. Meanwhile most of the world follow the vegetable brains of the parsnip-like leaders of Europe.
Perhaps if we destroyed a few cities the moderate Muslims would speak. Or not, there are very few problems from the dead.
Personally I will cheerfully trade every Muslim in the world for one hair on my grandchildren’s heads.
Red(#13)
Corwin (d0fab4) — 11/30/2008 @ 8:02 pmI’m a medical doctor.I can certasinly distinguish between torure and small arms fire.And I’m not a military doc.Your desire to negate any evidence which doesn’t confirm/conform to your views is a small obscenity.It’s certainly dwarfed by the crimes of those who tortured ,but you show some petty evil with a real chance at more.take some advice;Change utterly
“With talk like that Dave, you’ll never get another A-list invite to an Upper-East Side/Malibu/Marin party.”
Every time I went to one of their parties, it would end up with me sitting in a corner cleaning my assault rifles and sharpening my combat knives, and they’d all be crammed into the opposite corner, looking real nervous, and singing “Kumbaya” in real high voices. Pretty boring.
So, I quit going.
Dave Surls (a406e7) — 11/30/2008 @ 8:03 pmWell, Thank Gaia they didn’t waterboard the Israelis. That’d have been real torture, I tell you what……………
Techie (07c8ee) — 11/30/2008 @ 8:51 pmStop wasting your breath engaging eunuch parsnip.
Jack Klompus (b0e238) — 11/30/2008 @ 9:13 pmTo be a eunuch, he’d have to have had one in the first place.
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 11/30/2008 @ 9:52 pmDear Doc (#42)
are you sure about all that? i notice you left out blast, fragmentation and overpressure damage from various explosion sources as sources of the “torture” wounds, as well as fire, chemical exposure, putrefaction, etc. i also note that you give no references as to your experience in dealing with said wounds that would demonstrate your experience in differentiating between them, and you specifically deny any military experience. yet we are to bow down to the great MD and accept your word as gospel, just because you claim to be a doctor.
sorry, but your argument, such as it is, is uncompelling. the only obscenity here is what you substitute for logic in your post.
i also notice you didn’t read my post that you cited for comprehension, since i only raised the possibility of the medical personnel being mistaken, and specifically stated that the responders may have actually committed the alleged acts.
take some advice yourself: the arrogant “i’m g*d” doctor act only w*rks at the office, the clinic and/or at the hospital, and, even then, only until you screw up. you may note in my chart that i am unimpressed.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 11/30/2008 @ 10:28 pmred – During the Sepoy Mutiny, the British blew some prisoners apart after tying them to the mouths of canon. Apparently it was an old mughal punishment for mutiny. I’m sure many Indians have probably read about that part of their history. Sometimes I think the old methods work best.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/30/2008 @ 11:16 pm“yet we are to bow down to the great MD and accept your word as gospel, just because you claim to be a doctor.”
Well, it ain’t like you’re going to ask the janitor’s opinion.
Dave Surls (89b026) — 12/1/2008 @ 1:47 am“Doctor, in your opinion, were these people tortured?”
“Hell, I don’t know, I’m just a doctor. Why don’t you ask the bellhop what he thinks about it?”
Somehow I don’t think the above is a likely scenario.
Dave Surls (89b026) — 12/1/2008 @ 1:49 am51 & 52:
would you go to your dermatologist for treatment of a compound fracture of your leg, or a pediatrician for expert advice on the best course of treatment for your parent’s recently diagnosed Alzheimer’s?
doc’s come in a variety of flavors and levels of competence, and although they all have some common level of knowledge, said congruity of education does *not* make each and every one of them an instant expert in every aspect of medical practice, which is what the poster wanted us to believe.
to accurately differentiate trauma from torture, your best bets would be a trauma doc with current experience in a location that produces similar wounds on a routine basis, or a trained medical examiner with years of experience.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/1/2008 @ 9:29 amWho will want to save them?
Jesus, maybe. Certainly not me.
I think it’s well past time for “the west” to go medieval on the Islamic holy joes, myself. Start shooting Imams and Mullahs when they issue their fatwas, see how many fatwas don’t get issued.
What the hell, it couldn’t get much worse.
mojo (8096f2) — 12/1/2008 @ 10:08 am“God’s mercy is infinite. Mine has some practical limitations.”
Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 12/1/2008 @ 10:14 amlocal Muslim cemetery refuses terrorist bodies:
http://tinyurl.com/6rq2zo
as seen on My Pet Jawa
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/1/2008 @ 10:22 amIt would have been better if they were captured alive…
They got off too easy, and we hardly got any information out of them.
Its a shame we cant protect our foriegn guests
indian1127 (75ecd9) — 12/1/2008 @ 12:40 pmSnippy is the most moronic troll we’ve had here since the hit-and-run Obamabots, and that’s not an easy task. You’ve got to shift your brain in reverse to be that clueless.
L.N. Smithee (2a141b) — 12/1/2008 @ 4:17 pmparsnip wrote: I believe “The Left” thinks we create more terrorists when our military kills innocent civilians, daley.
Uh huh. What do Islamofascists create when they carefully plot massacres like this that are purposed to kill ONLY innocent civilians, snippy?
L.N. Smithee (2a141b) — 12/1/2008 @ 4:26 pmLN – questions like that might make sniffles/alphie/parsnip’s tiny little head explode.
JD (5f0e11) — 12/1/2008 @ 4:37 pmA really pissed off US of A.
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 12/1/2008 @ 4:43 pmAh…I wish that was true Mr. Jacobs. It appears that it creates 52% of American apologists and only 48% of pissed off Americans in all degrees of being pissed, from realllly pissed to barely hacked off.
The sad thing is that the apologists are running the fucking country come mid January.
rls (14b9d3) — 12/1/2008 @ 5:09 pmYeah well, YOU try and hold onto a real mad-on for more than a few years. 🙂
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 12/1/2008 @ 5:11 pm“would you go to your dermatologist for treatment of a compound fracture of your leg…?”
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that the doctors who examined the bodies probably weren’t dematologists.
Dave Surls (84a67b) — 12/1/2008 @ 6:06 pm#64: and i’m going to say they were most likely regular hospital docs, not trained pathologists, since the postmortems were done at the hospital, not at a coroner’s lab or the ilk.
my point is that asking people to practice outside their specialty is an open invitation for errors. they may get it right, they may not.
redc1c4 (27fd3e) — 12/2/2008 @ 8:55 amre#4…
…have you ever noticed in prisoner exchanges involving the Israelis that the prisoners they release are, you know, alive?
Funny how all the Israelis ever get back in return in remains.
furious (56af6d) — 12/2/2008 @ 12:05 pmI commend the Indian forces on their measured response, daley.
Yes, “measured response” as in the “measured response” by the police at Columbine.
furious (56af6d) — 12/2/2008 @ 12:06 pm#60 JD:
may damage the vegetables, but they give me a wry chuckle.
EW1(SG) (da07da) — 12/2/2008 @ 3:00 pm