Outlawing Thanksgiving at Claremont Schools
The L.A. Times:
For decades, Claremont kindergartners have celebrated Thanksgiving by dressing up as pilgrims and Native Americans and sharing a feast. But on Tuesday, when the youngsters meet for their turkey and songs, they won’t be wearing their hand-made bonnets, headdresses and fringed vests.
Parents in this quiet university town are sharply divided over what these construction-paper symbols represent: A simple child’s depiction of the traditional (if not wholly accurate) tale of two factions setting aside their differences to give thanks over a shared meal? Or a cartoonish stereotype that would never be allowed of other racial, ethnic or religious groups?
“It’s demeaning,” Michelle Raheja, the mother of a kindergartner at Condit Elementary School, wrote to her daughter’s teacher. “I’m sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation’s history.”
The article says: “Among the costume supporters, there is a vein of suspicion that casts Raheja and others opposed to the costumes as agenda-driven elitists.”
You don’t say.
And, what d’you know, at the root of it is an “Indian” who’s actually — if she’s even telling the truth, and not a complete four-flusher like Ward Churchill — mostly white, but 100% Professor-American.
Chalk up another great press win for UC-Neoteny, where’s it’s all fake outrage (from fake Indians) — the one native art form of spoiled, narcissistic boomers.
Yeah, it was pretty horrible that the native Americans were wrenched from their Stone Age, illiterate idyll and enslaved by novelties like written language, permanent buildings, codified law and the wheel. I’ll be waiting for Raheja to graduate from her present tantrum, where she lives the life of a parasite on the Evil White Man she abjures, to actually living the enlightened lifestyle of her neolithic role models.
I’ll be waiting, I reckon, a while.
Kevin R.C. O'Brien (88bf29) — 11/25/2008 @ 7:32 pmOur harvest being gotten in, our Governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a more special manner rejoice together, after we had gathered in the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the Company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king, Massasoit with some 90 men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted. And they went out and killed five deer which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our Governor and upon the Captain and others.
From Edward Winslow’s letter of 11 December 1621 describing the first “Thanksgiving,” footnote to Of Plymouth Plantation by William Bradford edited by Samuel Eliot Morison, published in 1993 – p. 90
Amphipolis (e6b868) — 11/25/2008 @ 7:32 pmWhen Thanksgiving is outlawed, only outlaws will have Thanksgiving.
Just Me (827414) — 11/25/2008 @ 7:54 pmWomen can no longer dress as wives and Men can no longer dress as husbands, it is demeaning to women b/c historically husbands oppressed their wives blah blah blah ….. God, these pygmies infuriate me with their shallow complaints over trivial issues.
Frankly, I like the Casino and discount Cigs.
Da'Shiznit (089453) — 11/25/2008 @ 8:03 pmI’m just about to get my mitten tree out of storage.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/25/2008 @ 8:05 pmSo?
Have all the kids celebrate Thanksgiving naked. Problem solved.
Shoot anyone taking pictures. Next problem solved.
Adriane (b8ecd8) — 11/25/2008 @ 8:08 pm“agenda-driven elitists” ya think? Every survey I’ve ever seen where they poll – like, actual Native Americans and not “agenda-driven elitists” the Native Americans overwhelmingly have no problem with sports teams and colleges using an Indian, or Indian Chief, etc. as a mascot! Let’s see, our nation’s capital has a football team, what was their name, oh yeah, frigging “Redskins.” And Cleveland’s Baseball teams mascot, nooooo, that’s not a goofy looking Indian face. How about the Atlanta Braves? Chicago Blackhawks? Illinois Illini and Chief Illinewek oh that’s right, the P.C. crowd fired Chief Illinewek, talk about discrimination! The “Indians” in survey after survey have no problem with sports teams using Native American symbols. Remember, we also have “Cowboys” “Patriots” and “Texans” I don’t see the PC crowd up in arms over belittling of U.S. Founding Fathers by the New England football team calling itself the Patriots. Or Pittsburgh steel workers complaining about the “Steelers.” Get a fricken life people and get the f*ck over it! Jeesz, that’s right, and then there are the “Saints.” I don’t see the PC crowd up in arms on behalf of Catholics because New Orlean’s team is called the Saints.
I guess the question to ask is this: Is it (the depiction, the play, the costumes) is it historically accurate? Is it factually correct? If it is, then get a fricken life people. Go Fighting Irish! Oops, are all Irish outraged by Notre Fricken Dame?
J. Raymond Wright (0440ef) — 11/25/2008 @ 8:40 pmI work at the California Public Utilities Commission. Today, all CPUC employees received the following email from our EE Officer regarding “Unthanksgiving”:
The beauty of this world is that it is a melting pot and potpourri of people of different colors, races, and national origins; each bringing some unique customs and cultures that contribute to the diversity and richness of this world. And, when we take the time to learn about other’s customs and cultures, we become more knowledgeable and more acceptant of that which is different from our own.
This Thanksgiving Day many of you will celebrate in the traditional way as a tribute to the meal the original European Pilgrims shared with Native American Indians who helped them survive in the new land. Though there is some debate among Historians as to the accuracy of the Pilgrims first Thanksgiving with the Wampanoag Indians; our history books have taught us that 100 Pilgrims sailed across the Atlantic Ocean from the UK on the Mayflower in 1620, arriving in Plymouth Colony too late to harvest any crops and without any fresh food. The Pilgrims suffered terribly during that winter with half of them dying from diseases. The following spring, the Wampanoag Indians taught the Pilgrims how to grow corn and other local crops, which were not familiar to the Pilgrims. The Pilgrims were also taught by the Wampanoag Indians how to master fishing and hunting. By the autumn of 1621, the Pilgrims had much to be thankful for because they had harvested bountiful crops. To show their gratitude and appreciation, the Pilgrims held their first Thanksgiving and invited the Wampanoag Indians to feast on turkey and other wild game along with the deer meat the Wampanoag Indians brought to eat.
Though Native American Indians had harvest festivals centuries before the Pilgrims arrived in Plymouth, Massachusetts, it wasn’t until November 1789, the first year that America’s government operated under the newly-ratified Constitution of the United States, that then President George Washington, issued a proclamation of a nation-wide day of thanksgiving. (The full text of the Thanksgiving Proclamation can be read at: http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/firsts/thanksgiving/thankstext.html.)
In 1863, Abraham Lincoln’s proclamation made Thanksgiving Day a national accepted holiday and in 1941, Thanksgiving Day was declared an official holiday.
Today, some American Indians have a nontraditional perspective on Thanksgiving. For many, the day is less a celebration than a commemoration of what was lost, and is considered instead as the saddest day for them. To many American Indians, Thanksgiving Day is a reminder that they made a big mistake by helping the Pilgrims that first winter, who they feel later betrayed them and massacred many of their people. Now, every Thanksgiving Day over 3,000 people, mostly American Indians, hold a sunrise ‘Unthanksgiving Day’ ceremony on Alcatraz Island (The Rock). There, they celebrate the American Indian Movement and commemorate American Indian leaders, while mourning the losses sustained by the indigenous people of the world. The ceremony pays homage to those who have died defending their native lands. Ceremonial activities include traditional dances by Native American groups from around the world, including the Aztec nation. Additionally, there are speeches and prayers by Indian advocates. The sunrise ceremony has been hosted on Alcatraz Island for 40 years since a group of Native Americans took over Alcatraz Island back in November of 1968, when the U.S. authorities closed down the prison. Fifteen thousand Native Americans from all over the United States made pilgrimage to Alcatraz Island during the 19 months they were able to hold on to it, staking claim to the abandoned island under the terms of treaties between the federal government and tribal leaders.
To learn more about the sunrise Unthanksgiving ceremony contact the International Indian Treaty Council directly at: (415) 641-4482, or to participate in this year’s event, contact Alcatraz Cruises at (415) 981-7625, http://www.alcatrazcruises.com/.
The first boat leaves Pier 33 at 4:45 AM. Last year hundreds of people were turned away, so come or purchase your tickets early.
While you are giving thanks this Thanksgiving, let this time of the season be a reminder that we all have the right to observe and practice our own unique customs and worship in the manner we choose without being harassed or persecuted for doing so.
Calif. State Employee (7003ad) — 11/25/2008 @ 9:56 pmJesus…
Rush Limbaugh reads a moving bit writen by the a certain pilgram, and it becomes more important for people to hear each and every year… I’ll be posting it this year at Jury Talks Back…
Scott Jacobs (90ff96) — 11/25/2008 @ 10:21 pm[…] great level-headed perspective on politics. He uses irony and sarcasm […]
Linkapalooza Part II: My Favorite Blogs « The Pugnacious Irishman (661794) — 11/25/2008 @ 10:24 pmI detest historical innaccuracies as much as anyone, and we all know that some of the traditions we’ve gotten used to are mired in questionable accounts of what actually happened, or perhaps important facts have been intentionally omitted from historical documentation.
Billy (00df03) — 11/25/2008 @ 11:00 pmHowever, it’s supposed be a good time for the kids which only lasts a day. Dont turn it into a political platform, its not the time or the place. Let the kids do what they’ve been doing for decades so no one child is traumatized by the uproar THEIR mom is causing by boycotting the event. The mother doesnt have to attend the classes or deal with her childs peers. Consider it a good opportunity to let them know what you believe the truth to be and treat the whole season as a learning excercise.
As adults we should be able to temporarily go with the flow and perhaps be a bit more subtle in our approach to protestation than this. Surely it isn’t her child shes concerned with, its making her OWN voice heard, which is just a thinly veiled attempt at getting ATTENTION. If she knew what she was doing, she would take her cause up with the governance of her state and make her voice heard in the proper forum.
Was anyone else disturbed by “Condit Elementary School”?
Naaaahhh….couldn’t be….
Eric Blair (8f93a0) — 11/25/2008 @ 11:16 pmAnd this whole “Noble Savage” view of Native Americans bothers me. Sure, Europeans did some horrible things coming here, but you know what? The Native Americans did their share, too, long before those nasty white people came here.
For one thing, they pretty much ate most of the megafauna in North America. They used to light wildfires to drive animals off cliffs to eat (now that’s ecological!). Slavery was common. Infanticide. Warfare that was every bit as horrific as anything Europeans did.
But our relativists like to portray Native Americans as “in balance with nature,” and “peace loving” and so forth—every bit as much of a fiction as the Thanksgiving holiday imagery they abhor.
It’s part of the Western Civilizations self-hatred, which I don’t understand.
Oh well.
Eric Blair (8f93a0) — 11/25/2008 @ 11:19 pmNote to Eric Blair;
“Lived in harmony with nature” is a Liberal code-phrase. It means “lived a life so uncomfortable that nobody in their right mind lives that way now, when they have a choice”.
C. S. P. Schofield (2f879a) — 11/26/2008 @ 1:05 amThe sad thing about the Pilgrim/Indian story is that it was marked by some terrific things at first and then some bad things, but the bad things were almost entirely perpetrated bin individual hot-head young men, spoiling for a fight and to prove themselves.
So may historical tragedies were started by young men who are looking for something to do. It’s a lot more fun to go out with your buddies looking for trouble than it is to tend to your responsibilities.
Then, after the initial violent event, your tribe/colony tends to pull ranks and take “their” side and then the shooting starts.
For the most part, initially both the Pilgrims and the Indians tried to be at least non-hostile. But, then, boys will be boys….
Pious Agnostic (291f9a) — 11/26/2008 @ 5:54 amVouchers. Let parents have a choice.
Lily (9d9b60) — 11/26/2008 @ 5:54 amI think this elitist ought to take her kid out of school and home school her. That would leave the rest of the community to enjoy some sanity in the schools.
PCD (7fe637) — 11/26/2008 @ 6:10 amLet’s just bury the hatchet. We smoke-um peace pipe.
Jack Klompus (cf3660) — 11/26/2008 @ 6:14 amLet’s just bury the hatchet. We smoke-um peace pipe.
Comment by Jack Klompus — 11/26/2008 @ 6:14 am
Thanks, Jack, for my first real belly laugh of the day. I needed that.
Kev (c70f43) — 11/26/2008 @ 6:56 amAlso, Jack, here is your official denouncement. Or at least it’ll be up any minute now, once the giggling stops.
Yup.
Aaaaaaaany minute now…
PCachu (e072b7) — 11/26/2008 @ 7:06 amMe hang-um head in shame. Feel anger of great denouncement spirit.
Long hair whipping in the wind while that whistle dirge plays. Tear trickling at sight of trash on the road. Giggling that people don’t realize that I’m Italian.
Jack Klompus (cf3660) — 11/26/2008 @ 7:17 amThe history of Native American interaction with Europeans is complicated. There were many Native American tribes (if you don’t mind me using the Roman word Tribe to describe them), frequently at war with each other. There were several different groups of European settlers. There were centuries of history.
To wrap this all around the Thanksgiving story is insane. The basic outline of the story is accurate, as I cited above. It is a positive story.
Maybe I say this because I am a Pennsylvanian, and friendly relations with the Indians is part of our heritage (OK, except the Iroquois, but nobody but the French were friendly with them (there are exceptions to even this see Frontenac), and for goodness sake we were run by pacifists back then).
Amphipolis (e6b868) — 11/26/2008 @ 7:45 amI work for a public school district where Thanksgiving has evolved into a white people’s day of atonement. Apparently there is plenty of guilt to go around. Last week, the district Superintendent called me asking if I would attend the school board meeting to receive on behalf of all Native American employees the Native American Recognition Award and say a few words. I declined. She asked why. I stated that I didn’t play identity politics. She was a little taken aback. Good thing I didn’t point out to her that in essence she was asking me to be the token injun to make white people feel good about themselves. Heh.
Dana (79a78b) — 11/26/2008 @ 7:45 amOh God Dana, you should have!
Even better, you should have waited to point that out until you were saying those few words after getting the Award.
Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 11/26/2008 @ 7:55 amI do wish the Atlanta Braves fans would stop doing that stupid tomahawk chop.
Jack Klompus (cf3660) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:10 amDana,
You should have gone and read them a speech they’d never forget, ala Princess Little Feather reading Brando’s refusal of an Oscar.
PCD (7fe637) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:16 amComment by Scott Jacobs — 11/26/2008 @ 7:55 am
Comment by PCD — 11/26/2008 @ 8:16 am
I admit we did have fun at home contemplating the many varied responses I could have made…all involving cheerful snark…
Seriously, it was nothing I could participate in with a clear conscience. Plus my tribe’s casino is such an abysmal failure I would hang my injun head in shame. At least the recipient’s tribe should have a successful casino to show we are worth something!
[Dana – I found your comment in the filter. I’m certain it went there because “casino” is on the spam list and the filter can’t tell the difference between an appropriate use of the word such as your comment and a spam site trying to lure people into online betting. Sorry for the delay. — DRJ]
Dana (79a78b) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:32 amDana, you could have shown up in a buckskin dress and moccasins.
Mark Steyn has a piece today at NRO about his second grader coming home from school this week and saying “Guess what I learned today in school?” The answer was Rosa Parks. The self-hatred never ends.
Mike K (394db3) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:41 amThis story dovetails neatly with the wussy – boy screechings in the MSM recently, regarding the TV frightfest with Gov. Palin holding a press conference in order to offer a stay of execution for a turkey, while standing in front of a turkey processing plant. The horror, the horror…
Dmac (e30284) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:54 amI think my previous response was eaten by the spam filter…
Anyway, we did have some fun at home contemplating what I could have said…most of it involved cheerful snark.
Funny too, I could tell as I gave my reasons for declining that there was a complete lack of understanding as to why I wasn’t jumping at the opportunity. Heh.
Dana (79a78b) — 11/26/2008 @ 8:58 amYesterday my second grader and his class presented three “plays” in the cafeteria at his school. His teacher announced at the beginning that the children had been learning about Native Americans and that the “plays” used the terms Native Americans and Indians.
The children wore vests made from paper grocery bags that they decorated themselves and they wore paper “feather” headbands.
No offense was meant, and no offense was taken. It was a lovely 1/2 hour presentation by a classroom of 8-year-olds, showing their parents and grandparents what they’ve learned and that they could memorize their parts.
kimsch (2ce939) — 11/26/2008 @ 9:18 amThe Indians burned Plymouth 55 years later. Of course, there is a lot more to the story.
Amphipolis (e6b868) — 11/26/2008 @ 9:19 amDana,
Kudos to you for doing the right thing with clarity and grace.
DRJ (a50047) — 11/26/2008 @ 9:30 amJack Klompus wrote: I do wish the Atlanta Braves fans would stop doing that stupid tomahawk chop.
As the Braves have fallen from the ranks of perennial Pennant contender, The Chop’s popularity has diminished. I remember it in its heyday, because the winningest S.F. Giants team in history (103 wins, 59 losses) just happened to play in the same season as the winningest Braves team ever (104 wins, 58 losses) in what was the last great Western Division race before the Wild Card era. I’ll never forget seeing the Braves beat on my G-men with that “Woah-oh-ohhh-hiyo-oh-oh-ohhh” going on in the stands.
Especially galling was seeing professional P.C. enforcer Jane Fonda — then wife of Ted Turner, owner of the Braves — joining the masses in the chopping motion with her arm, but with her palm faced down. That, in her mind, mitigated the supposed insensitivity of it all because she wasn’t simulating use of a weapon.
L.N. Smithee (b048eb) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:12 amI discussed this with my daughter:
1. Did you know that there was no turkey at the first Thanksgiving?
nk (5fa892) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:25 am2. Did you know that the Mayflower sailed away without the pilgrims at the first Thanksgiving?
3. Did you know that the Pilgrims came to America so they could be much freer? And that’s why America is called the land of freedom? Because in England it was pretty much like slavery. But in America, or Plymouth, people could be free there.
What would we do if aliens from another planet with sophisticated technology say 10 to 100 times more advanced than us gradually arrived to planet Earth?
And then went to war with us?
And then sat down and had a nice dinner with us?
And then took our land and systematically eliminated 2/3 of our worlds human population?
And then hundreds of years from now celebrated the nice day we had dinner, with school kids dressing up as cute little aliens and humans?
What do you think our future great, great, great, great surviving children would say to this? (Even after being integrated into alien society?)
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:32 amHaving just wrote that…….. Happy Thanksgiving everyone 🙂
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:33 amOiram – Baracky’s big on reparations. Is that why you voted for him? Guilt is a terrible thing to carry around. Me, I feel fine.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:42 amNo, that’s not why I voted for him. Didn’t know that this post was about that……………….
Bashing Obama for what he hasn’t done yet daley?
Figures
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:45 amOiram,
The only way to show that you are sincere is to immediatley disembowel yourself honorably at the feet of the statue of Crazy Horse.
nk (5fa892) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:47 amWhat would we do if aliens from another planet with sophisticated technology say 10 to 100 times more advanced than us gradually arrived to planet Earth?
Teach them how to use credit cards at Mickey D’s or Vons. That’d be the food gathering part.
For their housing when their spaceship sails off like the Mayflower, Third Generation…plenty of empty houses around.
Should be some great deals on transportation at zero interest, too.
Then they’ll figure out they should have landed in North Korea. Space cadets meet space case.
allan (b37c61) — 11/26/2008 @ 10:50 amThe only way to show that you are sincere is to immediatley disembowel yourself honorably at the feet of the statue of Crazy Horse.
How do you know I haven’t nk 😉
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:04 amI think JD came close.
DRJ (a50047) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:05 am#43 LOL, but thankfully lived to talk about it 🙂
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:09 amI heard on this morning’s news that 90+% of the students (as well as a great number of parents) showed up to school wearing costumes in defiance of the school board. There were about 10-12 parents protesting out front, including the ringleader, Ms. Reheja.
In a spirit of conciliation, parents at the Thanksgiving feast brought out plates of food to the protesters, who in a spirit of divisiveness, refused said generosity.
The best part of course is that parents, realizing the spinelessness of their school board which bowed to the whim of one individual, didn’t roll over and take it but instead put on their war paint and not only defiantly exchanged macaroni necklaces but also broke bread together, all of which showed the common sense and practicality the school board was obviously too afraid to do.
Dana (79a78b) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:18 amBashing Obama for what he hasn’t done yet daley?
Oiram – Merely responding to your hypothetical and Obama’s speeches. Didn’t Baracky keep saying that words matter or are you now going to join the chorus of his naysayers and agree that all his statements come with expiration dates?
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:19 amThat was funny. True, but funny. Probably racist and Indianist too.
JD (5f0e11) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:20 amOk, Oiram, I like your sense of humor.
The Chinese who live in China now are invaders who starved the indigenous population to death about 3,200 hundred years ago.
At about the same time the Greeks, Romans and Celts made their way west and exterminated/enslaved/assimilated the indigenous populations in the places they settled.
The Pilgrims were the products of Celts conquered by Romans conquered by Saxons conquered by Frenchified Scandinavians (Normans). Ok?
nk (5fa892) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:21 amnk – You can keep going back. The guilt never has to stop if you don’t want it to. It’s a staple of the progressive diet, just like tofu turkeys.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:24 amdaley, if there’s one thing that I’ve learned from blogging, it’s that you need to stay on topic.
Please show me where Obama is mentioned in the post.
You know how many times I have been justly accused of “hijacking” a post?
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:25 amI’m going to go celebrate Thanksgiving by pretending that I care about indignities that were heaped upon people in a bygone era. I’m going to register my sanctimony on the internet with such sincerity that people might actually believe that I sacrifice anything from my own comfortable existence in atonement. By doing so I make everything better for everyone. In fact, I power my car with it!
And yes the Braves sucking is a wonderful thing. I remember Hanoi Jane doing her alternate chop that looked like she was offering “Heil Fives”.
Jack Klompus (cf3660) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:32 am#47, I try on the humor part nk, thanks.
I understand what your saying.
But honestly would you be o.k. with celebrating a nice dinner before being conquered?
Isn’t what sets the U.S. apart from those other civilizations the fact that we go out of our way to include and understand the plight of the inferior?
Look, I’ll be eating turkey and stuffing like the rest of you tomorrow, but we need to understand where these people are coming from.
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:33 am“You know how many times I have been justly accused of “hijacking” a post?”
Oiram – Justly is the correct term. Your alien hypothetical was almost a hijack attempt. Given the indignities committed against Native American outlined in that comment and in others on this thread, Oiram, why is the subject of reparations a hijacking? Obama has even broached it numerous interviews and touched on it in his galactically famous and memorable, national reconciliation moment when he said white people got theirs and gotta give black people some. Just sayin’.
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:42 amOiram…
Another Drew (67f3cf) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:47 amNow there’s a stuffed turkey!
I definitely believe in reparations …
paid by black Americans to white Americans. The formula I’m thinking of is a tax on black Americans based on the difference between the average income in African countries and the average income in the United States.
I would be amenable to a settlement. Forgiveness of debt in return for permanent departure from the U.S..
nk (5fa892) — 11/26/2008 @ 11:52 am#52 Alright daley hijack the thread, go ahead be my guest.
Obama has broached the subject of reparations, but mostly in a negative away.
here
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 12:01 pmOutlaw? Ridiculous. But it fires up the base!
imdw (b1617d) — 11/26/2008 @ 12:01 pm“The formula I’m thinking of is a tax on black Americans based on the difference between the average income in African countries and the average income in the United States”
Next up, on thanksgiving weekend we learn that white people came from somewhere else too.
imdw (23f1a0) — 11/26/2008 @ 12:04 pmXenu
daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/26/2008 @ 12:12 pmObama has broached the subject of reparations, but mostly in a negative away.
I don’t know, Oiram, my understanding of Obama’s position is that, in his typical fashion, it depends on the audience to whom he is speaking. In front of more centrist White Democrats, Dear Leader-elect downplays reparations as not practical, though he stops short of saying it would be outright bad policy. However, when talking to a mostly African-American audience — especially one in which Black radicals are present in significant numbers — he tends towards a “nuanced” version in which he stops short of endorsing reparations, but instead speaks of the need of “investing” in the inner cities with the clear subtext that (White) Americans should do so out of a sense of obligation rather than it being necessarily good social policy.
JVW (bff0a4) — 11/26/2008 @ 12:42 pmRe: The EE e-mail
They weren’t ‘European’ pilgrims, they were English to a man and woman.
They didn’t saild from the UK — that Act of Union which unified England and Scotland — thus creating the UK — was 80 years in the future.
BTW, I am of Yankee stock, but let’s not forget the the first permanent English colony was at Jamestown. Thanksgiving was made a national holiday by Abraham Lincoln. You have to suspect the focus on Plymouth was part of the war propaganda against the South.
Mitchell Young (f72be0) — 11/26/2008 @ 1:06 pm#60 JVW, it’s politics as usual on both sides.
When your looking for flip flop nuances it’s easy to find.
Use that same scrutiny for all politicians…. please.
Oiram (983921) — 11/26/2008 @ 1:27 pmFine, so we find out the invaders were not so nice to the locals. OK, admit it and go on.
So they really did not have sit down with a turkey. Admit it and go on.
Some legends are easily modified, but to all of a sudden label them as TOTALLY in acceptable? A bit far, I think. ( I already nobody cares what I think, could care less).
I will add only that is is an apparent fact that the indigenous peoples of America did help out the newcomers, and the newcomers appreciated such help and that probably there were many occasions both got together and broke bread.
They also apparently have a falling out, and such led to a whole bunch of dead folks.
I figure much of that was caused by a total misunderstanding of cultural differences and one side not having tolerance of the other. (hmmmm, that seems to continues to be in vogue today).
Back to the thread…
““It’s demeaning,” Michelle Raheja, the mother of a kindergartner at Condit Elementary School, wrote to her daughter’s teacher. “I’m sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation’s history.””
Or is it a thread into the history of this country and how we arrived at where we are today? I think so. Can we modify such to represent the reality of the past, for sure, but to just call it racist and throw is out is out of the question.
TC (0b9ca4) — 11/27/2008 @ 3:25 amOiram –
And then went to war with us?
And then sat down and had a nice dinner with us?
Nice anachronism. The war was more than 50 years after the first Thanksgiving. Check your facts. There were many European settlers, many Indian groups. The first Thanksgiving was a specific event, not an epoch.
The Europeans did NOT systematically eliminate 2/3 of their population. You are spreading a lie, a lie that has absolutely nothing to do with the Thanksgiving story.
The fact is that the pilgrims would not have survived without help, even with their technology. It is a story of friendship freely given. This particular friendship lasted for a generation. You want to make it into a story of oppression. Sorry, your square peg does not fit into this round hole.
Amphipolis (fdbc48) — 12/1/2008 @ 8:09 amSorry, your square peg does not fit into this round hole
WOW! I am so surprised.
Another Drew (ff78fa) — 12/1/2008 @ 8:20 amNo, they systematically eliminated 2/3 of the Native American population…
Or do you not remember who was in charge of various parts of the continent back then?
Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 12/1/2008 @ 8:35 amScott –
There was no plan. There was no procedure implemented over centuries. There was no coordination among the various European settlers. We don’t even know for sure how many died.
Most died from diseases. These diseases were not deliberately introduced, except in very rare cases. Europeans died from the same diseases centuries before. The spread of disease was not understood. Some American diseases went the other way and affected Europe.
A lot more than 2/3 of the original European settlers died, many at the hands of Native Americans. War went both ways, and tribes fought each other. Cortez would not have gotten anywhere without Tlascalan allies.
The Europeans did NOT systematically eliminate 2/3 of the Native American population. You have absolutely NO basis for saying this. It is a fantasy, like Santa Claus.
In the case of Paraguay, the Europeans deliberately interbred with the natives. You present centuries of history as a simple and grossly exaggerated caricature that has nothing to do with Thanksgiving, or real history.
I do tire of making the same points year after year. You have been indoctrinated, wake up and read some real history.
Amphipolis (fdbc48) — 12/2/2008 @ 1:54 pm