Patterico's Pontifications

11/11/2008

Ed Morrissey: Let’s Not Act Like the Unhinged Left

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:54 am



At Hot Air, Ed Morrissey quotes a Jake Tapper post that says:

Rep. Paul Broun, R-Georgia, recently said that he fears President-elect Obama may create a security force akin to the Gestapo to impose a Marxist dictatorship.

Ed considers the evidence and finds it lacking, and responds:

If we plan to offer a rational alternative to the coming debacle of the next two years, then we’d better stick to facts and eschew hyperbole. We need to oppose the reality of the radical agenda proposed by Obama and the Democratic majorities in Congress, not fantasies spun out of context-free snippets of speeches. The more critics invoke Hitler and Stalin instead of Jimmy Carter and Lyndon Johnson, the better the reality of Obama, Reid, and Pelosi will seem in 2010.

Stick to facts? Eschew hyperbole? Oppose reality and not fantasy? Don’t compare Obama to Hitler and Stalin?

It’s all far too much for OUTLAW Jeff Goldstein, who mocks Morrissey in a post titled Ed Morrissey: Calm Down and Play Nice, ODS sufferers:

Don’t act like Democrats did. Republicans, why, they have more class.

– Oh. And a few million less presidential votes, fewer House and Senate seats, and, soon, a diminished role in the judiciary.

But still, they have more class!

It’s an utter mystery to me why Ed’s sensible post would spur such a bitter reaction from Goldstein. Morrissey does not use the word “class” or say “play nice” anywhere in his post. He’s just saying we shouldn’t act like the mirror image of the unhinged left.

And we shouldn’t. It’s wrong, and it doesn’t help anything.

P.S. In the meantime, there is a real philosophical battle for the soul of the Republican Party going on. Perhaps we could shelve the debate about whether Obama is Hitler or Stalin and figure out where we stand on that issue.

P.P.S. Jeff has added an update that links three comments that, he says, explain why he reacted to Ed’s post the way he did. To me, they seem like they’re a reaction to something other than what Ed actually said. But read it yourself and make up your own mind.

P.P.P.S. Also, he has re-written his post since I originally quoted it above.

104 Responses to “Ed Morrissey: Let’s Not Act Like the Unhinged Left”

  1. Well, I would say, let Jeff be Jeff.

    Not that you would be going all Baloon Juice or anything.

    J2 (e796a3)

  2. Given the reactions to your “I think Obama is a good guy”, I find it surprising that you find it surprising that JG would react like this. Or did I miss the Sarcasm/Humor link?

    kaf (16e0b5)

  3. And please. Anyone who wants to criticize what I have said about Obama over the past few days, take it to the appropriate comment thread, like here or here or here. I’m not saying that Ed’s post vindicates my position, and I’m frankly sick of that whole discussion — as are most commenters here, I believe.

    Ed’s post stands on its own merits. And while I can easily see people disagreeing with what I have said, I can’t imagine how someone could disagree with what Ed has said.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  4. My comment #3 is not in response to #1 or #2.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  5. I agree with Ed, but I wouldn’t stop there.

    We need to be wary. We need to be prepared. As I have been saying.

    I think the Democrats are going to unload a massive amount of legislation in January and February. Our heads will be spinning. All of their wish lists since 1994 will be made into law.

    We need to be prepared and have strategies to deal with extreme issues should they arise – issues such as stacking the Supreme Court, DC Statehood, tampering with the census, and citizenship for illegals. I don’t want to be staring at a fait accompli that was buried in a heap of change.

    Take one day at a time, but be prepared for the worst case scenario.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  6. It’s natural to feel a range of emotions when you lose an election. Some people feel anger, others denial, etc. Let people work through the emotions in their own way. Unity will come when we get back to our basic conservative message with leaders who believe in that message.

    DRJ (cb68f2)

  7. Great Post Patterico. I especially like the exposure to the fact that the “unhinged” fall on both sides of the aisle

    Oiram (983921)

  8. In a day where a lot of voters think Reagan and Bush I are old news, we’re supposed to scare them with the ancient bogeymen of Carter and Johnson? Good luck with that.

    While Ed is right that the GOP needs to oppose the reality of the left’s agenda, it needs to do a heck of a lot better than it did during the campaign. Since TANSTAAFL, the GOP needs to reach out and mobilize the large numbers of voters who are going to end up paying for lunch (think Harry and Louise, 2008).

    And while comments such as that from the unhinged Congressman mobilize like-minded paranoid basket cases (and you guys know who you are!), they cause the voters whose support we need to tune out the other, more respectable criticism. And since we can count on the media to give plenty of airtime to nuts like this, the The GOP needs someone to crack heads and keep the team playing together and the nuts away from the microphone.

    But I also understand Goldstein’s frustration. We just suffered with a candidate who would rather lose than raise what a lot of us felt were legitimate issues. We don’t need nice guys who don’t mind losing, we need guys who really want to win and are smart enough to go about doing so in the proper way. As I learned when I was a kid, when you’re in a fight, make sure you win… let the loser complain that you didn’t fight fair.

    stevesturm (369bc6)

  9. I’d say: Theatrical hysterics won the election. Do we want to win an election?
    Me, I’m not going to become a loon, not even for the sake of winning an election. I’m thinking good guys finish last.
    I’m also thinking that Obama’s first question to GWB in the Oval Office was, “But where are the unicorns?”

    m (e0ec75)

  10. I think about Morrisey’s suggestion much as I think about the old joke about expensive yachts, where the punchline goes — If you have to ask, you can’t afford it. — So it will be with the personal behavior of political followers — if you have to ask them, they don’t have it in them. So flip it about — if they have it in them, you don’t have to ask.

    sdferr (d02762)

  11. He’s just saying we shouldn’t act like the mirror image of the unhinged left.
    And we shouldn’t. It’s wrong, and it doesn’t help anything.

    It’s wrong, I’d agree–and that is a highly subjective call.
    But didn’t you have just a moment’s pause, when you typed “it doesn’t help anything,” where you thought, “except . . . the unhinged left won the election”?

    m (e0ec75)

  12. #11 Isn’t claiming that 51% of all Americans who voted are “Unhinged”, unhinged in itself?

    Oiram (983921)

  13. Don’t worry, Conservatives, Republicans, RINOs, and even Independents are incapable of acting like the unhinged Left. It isn’t in their DNA.

    It can’t be done, there’s too much self-respect, individual pride, and consideration for the rights of others at work here that precludes the public expression of hatred, racism, and bigotry which define the modern Left in America.

    Ropelight (1dddd9)

  14. “Rep. Paul Broun, R-Georgia, recently said that he fears President-elect Obama may create a security force akin to the Gestapo to impose a Marxist dictatorship.”

    I don’t know about that, but given the history of the Democrat Party, it isn’t that hard to imagine them putting people in jail for having the wrong political opinions, or putting innocent people in concentration camps.

    They’ve done it before.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  15. If they are going to accomplish their objectives – which I think would include consolidating their power – they would have to start right away. They may never have a better chance to permanently change the rules. Honeymoons don’t last forever. Neither do memories. There is also shock and awe – overwhelming all opposition with massive change all at once.

    How serious are they? We will wait and see, but we would be foolish to assume they are not very serious indeed. This is not being loony. This is being wary. This is being prepared. This is caring about the government our children will inherit.

    What limits their power? The courts, the filibuster, public outrage leading to future electoral defeat. That’s it. They can change the game for all three if they really want to.

    If we are not ready to defend these things, it will be over before we know it – assuming there is anything we can do to prevent it.

    So don’t fire until you see the whites of their eyes, but keep your powder dry and your eyes on the target. The target is our system limiting power, and our path back. Everything else is already lost.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  16. This may be somewhat off-topic, but if 7 out of 10 people think Obama is going to ‘fix’ the economy, and given that consumer confidence and spending, more than anything else, drives the economy, why should we oppose his economic planks if, in doing so, we cause people to lose confidence, become more pessimistic which in turns leads to even worse economic problems?

    It’s not as if the GOP is going to be able to enact anything it wants to do, the choice for the GOP is between standing to the side while Obama fixes the economy and being an obstacle leaving us in the same mess for years to come. And given that we’re supposed to have the country’s best interests at heart, how can we justify subjecting the country to the effects of a collapsing economy? Isn’t it our patriotic duty to help Obama? Who’s with me? Let’s go!

    stevesturm (369bc6)

  17. #14 Dave,

    I guess your revering to Republican U.S. senator Joseph McCarthy?

    And I guess your referring to FDR authorizing Japanese Internment camps during WW2?

    I guess that’s half Democrat Party history and half Republican Party history.

    Bad Point.

    Oiram (983921)

  18. “I guess your revering to Republican U.S. senator Joseph McCarthy?”

    Since Joseph McCarthy never put anyone in jail, or in concentration camps, I guess I’m not.

    “Bad Point.”

    On the contrary.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  19. 16, Aren’t you being Hypocritical? The Democrats never just stood aside and let the GOP implement their solutions, NEVER! So why should the GOP abandon what principles they have left and let the Democrat implement their Socialist/Marxist agenda?

    PCD (7fe637)

  20. Someone far smarter put it this way,

    …be as cunning(wise, shrewd, prudent, sagacious) as serpents and as innocent as doves.

    The point is to certainly be vigilant but not reactionary. Rep. Broun’s phrasing and purposeful invoking hot buttons like Marxist and Hitler and Gestapo are nothing but an attempt at inciting fervor – the wrong kind.

    I agree with Morrisey’s calm yet also believe there should indeed be serious scrutiny paid by all Americans at any attempt to produce a civilian security force by the new administration. Red flag warning. But any semi-hysteria evoking Godwin’s Law will only make the right look as chaotic and disassembled as it truly is.

    If we want to be taken seriously again, it would be wise to keep hyperbole out of the equation.

    Dana (79a78b)

  21. Isn’t claiming that 51% of all Americans who voted are “Unhinged”, unhinged in itself?

    But then, no one said that.
    The unhinged left are a subset of the populace whose candidate won the election. They are a very vocal and active subset. Spot an unhinged leftist, and you’ve spotted someone who won the election. If you were to remove from the populace all those of the unhinged left who voted for Obama, and all those who influenced votes for Obama, the final vote tally for Obama would have been fewer in number. Sufficiently fewer for Obama to have lost? I have expressed my opinion that the answer is “yes.”

    m (e0ec75)

  22. PCD: if the people want (or, at the least, willing to put up with) Socialist/Marxist stuff because they believe it will help the economy, how can we justify standing in the way of what the people want? The Democrats have no problem standing athwart the will of the people (in large part because they don’t trust the people to know what is good for them) but we’re not Democrats, are we? We believe in the American people. Do the words ‘the will of the people’ mean nothing to us? It’s out patriotic duty to help Obama enact his socialist agenda.

    stevesturm (369bc6)

  23. #18 Sorry, Dave, I’m going to have to assume your vagueness is chock full of holes until you elaborate and allow defense of your accusations.

    Until that happens……. “Bad Point” stands.

    Oiram (983921)

  24. pw is riight/frame the narrative
    repubs said that they’d shrink spending-then they turned whores. i do not like being played-or being punched in the face everyday w/out someone on my side fighting back-why should i fight for the republicans when they won’t fight for me? as far as illegal immigration goes-don’t u think legal immigrants are as pissed off as you and i?
    make the case for a conservative philosophy
    build it and they will come
    but dammit-get in the gameu think we forget mcain-feingold-kennedy?-if it wasn’t for palin-it would have been much worse
    say what u mean and mean what u say…
    sorry for the rant-but the repubs are wussies
    and barack got elected-and i hope he don’t fuck up…
    but it would be nice to have someone who believes in the “traditiontal” wing ready for a fight

    pdbuttons (7c5cbc)

  25. #21 Ahh, but didn’t some “unhinged” also vote for McCain thus skewing the numbers back to more or less what they are now?

    If you say more “unhinged” on the left than the right (if at all), sorry if I think it’s more balanced than you do.

    Oiram (983921)

  26. No one will have any credibility left if we all give into the impulse to act like the Kos Kiddies for the next two years.

    –Ed Morrissey, end of his cited article.

    Where he helpfully acknowledges the facts of:
    1. [acting] like the Kos Kiddies
    2. the impulse to act like the Kos Kiddies

    Whether “No one will have any credibility left if we all give into the impulse to act like the Kos Kiddies” is a prediction. I don’t think that even he would claim that as more than an opinion.

    m (e0ec75)

  27. I think any “unhingedness” may be a compensation reflex arising from the continuing utter failure of Republicans to identify and form a response to the rising Leftism in the Democrat party and its unholy alliance with the media. McCain failed, abjectly. Palin tried a little and was eaten alive by them because she did.

    In fact, I agree more with what I’ve heard from the “unhinged” crowd than the “let’s give him a chance” crowd. If you have illusions Obama will govern as a centrist-realist, enjoy your Fairness Doctrine, DOJ inquiries and IRS audits. Obama is a Marxist and he will do as much possible overtly — and more covertly — to “change” America in ways never seen in our history. He will do them “incrementally,” but he will do them. There is no imagination or paranois involved in this speculation. It’s all their in his past, words, choices, votes, friendships.

    By the way, he will do everything possible in his first year to cripple dissent in his last two years, when it matters.

    rrpjr (e98cdc)

  28. “#18 Sorry, Dave, I’m going to have to assume your vagueness is chock full of holes until you elaborate and allow defense of your accusations.”

    Who’s being vague?

    The Democrats initiated two Red Scares in this country, one during WWI and one after WWII, during which hundreds of people were jailed because of their political opinions. Roosevelt had thousands of innocent people thrown into concentration camps during WWII.

    And, we haven’t even started talking about the Democrats and their fondness for involuntary servitude during times of national crisis (the Draft), or the mini-reign of terror they imposed in the Jim Crow south.

    I think those who fear that today’s “liberal” Democrats might do the same as yesterday’s “liberal” Democrats have pretty good reason to be suspicious of the new messiah and the cult of personality that surrounds him.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  29. The debate between Ed Morrissey and Jeff Goldstein has been going on in my own head since the election. I quit reading some of the responses on this post as I am at work and don’t have alot of free time but I did want to post this to whomever my care.

    Like it or not, the reason that we (Republicans) lost is not because we lost our way or did not hold to the conservitive principles, it’s not because John McCain ran a bad campaign… although those reasons did not help, the Republicans lost this election, and the 2006 election, because of one simple thing.

    The Democrats, along with a overly willing media, ran a 6-7 year smear campaign against George Bush. From the distortion of the “wire tapping” case to the “16 words” and “Bush lied, people died”. There was hardly a week that went by that people were not led by the nose to think something bad about Bush. I mean, how many other Presidents can you think of that have had three movies made of them while they were in office… and all three baseless mocking portrails meant to ridicule, hell one even talked about his assassination! It’s sad, I still have people that think the Plame verdict stated that Bush himself outed a covert CIA agent!

    It amazes me how brainwashed the American public has become. I actually had patients that were blaming the entire economic crash on Bush. When I told them that he tried to stop it and warned about the fall out on many occations, and even when I showed them the actual documents that proved Bush tried to stop it, and video of the Democrats, over the course of years, saying “nothing is wrong with Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac”… my patients would only repeat “it’s Bush’s fault” like braindead zombies.

    And what is the Democrats reward for this smear campaign? Almost complete control of the United States Government!

    So now I debate the Opening Post in my head constantly. Now I don’t want to act like the insane left and make up lie after lie to tarnish any of the Dems, but I will be damned if I sit back and don’t do anything.

    Mark (b31ddd)

  30. Dave Surls, I’m continually amazed at the ignorance of Democrats of the history of their own Presidents like Wilson and FDR.

    SPQR (72771e)

  31. In the MSM, which controls the people who don’t pay attention (but decide elections), angry left-wing screaming is “dissent”; angry right-wing screaming is “angry right-wing screaming.”

    Unfair, yes, but this is the world we live in. So, since we want to be the grownups, we have to act that way. Calm, logical and persistent opposition plays better in the long run than angry screaming anyway.

    The left did not win this election by screaming, they won it by too many things going wrong on our watch.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  32. #29 Mark (well spent coffee break!)

    And what is the Democrats’ reward for this smear campaign? Almost complete control of the United States Government!

    Bingo.

    Now I don’t want to act like the insane left and make up lie after lie to tarnish any of the Dems,

    Spoken like John McCain–a good man, and a senator under the Obama administration.

    but I will be damned if I sit back and don’t do anything.

    But what? What works? We know better than John McCain?

    m (e0ec75)

  33. Comment by Ropelight — 11/11/2008 @ 12:42 pm

    What’s more, who would want to be considered on the same level as Oiram, love2008, truthnjustice, and others?

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  34. “…Rep. Paul Broun, R-Georgia, recently said that he fears President-elect Obama may create a security force akin to the Gestapo to impose a Marxist dictatorship…”

    Isn’t this what BHO referred to during the campaign when he said he wanted to establish a
    Civilian National Security Force on par with the military?

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  35. “Dave Surls, I’m continually amazed at the ignorance of Democrats of the history of their own Presidents like Wilson and FDR.”

    SPQR, if it wasn’t for ignorance, and the innate desire of human beings to get something for nothing…there wouldn’t be any such thing as the Democrat Party.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  36. The original AP article was surprisingly not a complete hatchet job, but Broun’s comments show once again a complete inability of BHO’s opponents to learn. They’ve consistently overreached and gotten smacked down for it, such as by calling BHO a socialist instead of making more nuanced and correct statements.

    Instead of concentrating on telling people to settle down, let me suggest show the way by a) coming up with questions about the BHO plan that Broun discussed, and b) encouraging people to go ask BHO or his spokespeople about it. You know, doing something effective.

    24AheadDotCom (e10679)

  37. Maybe the republicans can change to mirrow the democrats. All you have to do is become liars,welfare riders, thieves, traitors, backstab anyone who loves, supports or protects the country and kill off several generations through abortion. You’ll also have to protect terrorists, assist them in killing Americans and put mass murderers back on the streets. Nothing hard about that if you have no soul.

    Scrapiron (ce69ff)

  38. I “get” JeffG’s frustration, because the more I see the fingerwagging at any Republican/conservative who might want to vent or even be nakedly honest is just way too Church Lady.

    How many cheeks do we turn and for how long until the line has been crossed from being “nice” to being a bloody lump on the floor?

    STOP IT. For more than 8 years Leftists/Progressives have slimed, slandered and smeared Republicans and conservatives as “haters”. For heaven’s sake Howard Dean said

    Our moral values, in contradiction to the Republicans’, is we don’t think kids ought to go to bed hungry at night.

    and no one stood up and called Dean out on it.

    Republicans have let the Democrats define the right. We have let THEM do the “branding” as it were and have lived in a fantasy world that everyone would see the “real” Republicans through the Left-controlled narrative.

    WAKE UP. Republicans/Classical Liberals/Conservatives have to insist, firmly, that words mean what they mean. They cannot accept other’s bad faith spins or interpretations.

    The next Dem that sneers that the GOP is about “rich” people letting seniors and children starve needs to be forcefully confronted and shown for the cur they are.

    If moderates/independents are looking at Republicans with disdain it is because too many are wimping out and do NOT have the courage of the convictions they profess.

    Darleen (187edc)

  39. #28 Dave,

    Now I see why you were being vague.

    So let me get this straight, your party has been accusing Obama of being a leftist, and your using a long ago Democrat administration (FDR) who jailed leftists as proof that Obama is capable of this as well.

    Got it.

    Oiram (983921)

  40. SPQR and Dave S.

    Sorry Dems aren’t as intelligent as you guys are when it comes to the “spin”.

    I guess we need to work on that?

    Oiram (983921)

  41. “Got it.”

    Doubt it.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  42. 24AheadDot — Yes, let’s not call a spade a spade because that’s not nuanced and correct. Instead we shall employ nuance and layers upon layers of correctness.
    Obama is not a socialist. He’s an potentially unstable megalomaniac Marxist.
    The instability is a nuanced inference derived from his own biography and family history. Based on family systems theory (Bowens et al) , Obama is likely to repeat the bug-out or addictive intoxication themes of parents and grand-parents.
    That he is a megalomaniac is based on layers of reported behaviour assumed to be correct. The Greek Temple pillars at the DNC, the speech in Berlin, the faux-Presidential seal, etc etc. (I spell behaviour with a ‘u’ to indicate my astute nuanced correct erudition.)
    That he is Marxist is a nuanced inference of correct-ness derived from his own words and associations. He says he sought out the Marxists. He told Joe the bourgieous Plumber that Joe needed to despotically have redistributed his wealth that was gotten by the oppressed proletariat behind him. (Honestly although erudite and nuanced I forget how to spell bourguieous and am not sure if the peon-like laboring masses are called the proletariat or not. Marx was never palatable to me.)

    bvw (45bd40)

  43. Oiram, learning some basic history would be an improvement. The “Red Scares” were Woodrow Wilson and Truman. Wilson had many people who opposed his policies imprisoned including Eugene Debs who was pardoned by the next GOP President Harding. FDR had tens of thousands of innocent people rounded up by race. Not surprising given the racist campaign in 1920 run by the Democratic ticket of Cox and Roosevelt …

    Its not hard to learn of this.

    SPQR (72771e)

  44. “Sorry Dems aren’t as intelligent as you guys…”

    Well, duh.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  45. #45 You guys are hilarious Dave and SPQR.

    Before you wave your air of intelligence, I need to know one thing.

    Is Obama a leftist or not?

    Oiram (983921)

  46. PCD: if the people want (or, at the least, willing to put up with) Socialist/Marxist stuff because they believe it will help the economy, how can we justify standing in the way of what the people want? The Democrats have no problem standing athwart the will of the people (in large part because they don’t trust the people to know what is good for them) but we’re not Democrats, are we? We believe in the American people. Do the words ‘the will of the people’ mean nothing to us? It’s out patriotic duty to help Obama enact his socialist agenda.

    Comment by stevesturm — 11/11/2008 @ 1:16 pm

    I sincerely hope that stevesturn comment was sarcastic – it is getting hard to tell in these days of the 52 telling the 48 to get on board and shutup.

    I am constrained in being an enthusiastic supporter of socialism by virtue of having read the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. I really don’t care of a majority of people want redistribution of wealth as a policy – show me in the Constitution where it is permitted. I don’t care that Obama feels more self-esteem when he intimidates his opposition into silence and clamors to limit free speech. I don’t care that Obama supports the 2nd Amendment only as long as “he doesn’t have the votes” to ban gun ownership.

    The question is have we crossed the Rubicon as a nation when Congress, the Courts and the People no longer look to the Constitution for the limits on government? It seems that the commerce clause has pretty much trumped any criticism of more invasive and pervasive government. Do we allow Obama to create a “Second Bill of Rights” out of thin air and then confiscate our earnings to implement it?

    Where do we get a toehold with the 52 if the majority of them will perceive socialism as a personal benefit?

    in_awe (bc82df)

  47. “yet also believe there should indeed be serious scrutiny paid by all Americans at any attempt to produce a civilian security force by the new administration. Red flag warning.”

    Careful, Dana. Wouldn’t want to step on any squishy toes. The song ends “then they came for me…” but we have to promise to play nice until… what? The first imprisonments? Paramilitary thugs walking around armed (say, like in Philly on election day).

    I doubt we will see any help on that question here. Wouldn’t be “playing nice” enough.

    I believe it’s bluff and BS at this point on Obama’s part but it’s all part of the never ending testing process. I don’t doubt for an instant that if he could figure out how to get the military working for him he’d try it.

    Oh well, at least he has already helped employment among the ammo and gun manufacturers.

    Rick Ballard (e3e91f)

  48. We need to fight back NOW. Obama stole the election with hundreds of millions of dollars of fradulent contributions. If you don’t fight back, who will? Do it NOW.

    Start by filing a complaint at the Federal Elections Commission. We need thousands of these. DO IT NOW. Here’s a link to instructions on how to file a complaint at the FEC. If you don’t, who will? Nobody!

    http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/complain.shtml

    faultrace (7003ad)

  49. Rather than develop an entire new post dedicated to answering Patterico, I’ll just point you here, here, and here.

    But I will point out that that last bit — “In the meantime, there is a real philosophical battle for the soul of the Republican Party going on. Perhaps we could shelve the debate about whether Obama is Hitler or Stalin and figure out where we stand on that issue” — pretty much speaks to what I say in the comments linked above.

    Perhaps a type of Townhouse list can be made available to those of us who aren’t quite sure what is authorized criticism, or a worthwhile topic, and what is not.

    But I insist there be a hierarchy for deciding such things. I mean, I wouldn’t want to be getting talking points from just anybody.

    No, I prefer someone with a nice pedigree.

    You have my email. Sign me up!

    Jeff G (735284)

  50. But then, no one said that.
    The unhinged left are a subset of the populace whose candidate won the election. They are a very vocal and active subset. Spot an unhinged leftist, and you’ve spotted someone who won the election. If you were to remove from the populace all those of the unhinged left who voted for Obama, and all those who influenced votes for Obama, the final vote tally for Obama would have been fewer in number. Sufficiently fewer for Obama to have lost? I have expressed my opinion that the answer is “yes.”

    “If you ignore the vast majority of people who voted for Obama in a specific way, you’re left with nuts. And I’m concerned.”

    Who are you trying to convince, exactly?

    fishbane (40b90a)

  51. Perhaps a type of Townhouse list can be made available to those of us who aren’t quite sure what is authorized criticism, or a worthwhile topic, and what is not.

    Wow. I guess I have joined the ranks of the oppressors. LIKE OBAMA!!

    It sounds so Brave and Principled for you to Stand Up to the Forces in your party who are trying to Dictate what is Authorized.

    Of course, nobody is actually trying to do that. But enjoy your battle with that strawman. Good luck! I think you’ll win!

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  52. I’m a lot wary of let us not statements generally.

    happyfeet (71f55e)

  53. Jaysus, Pat

    reclaim your humor gene

    the fingerwagging and posturing of Proper Republicans Acting Properly, with pinkie Extended, is ripe for riposte.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMqSmiC_xHg

    Darleen (187edc)

  54. Do you really mean to say that someone referred to Brakabama as a Marxist? What a pity, Just because he’s a Marxist doesn’t mean he should be labeled a Marxist.

    ccoffer (338141)

  55. See, that’s where I land on this. Marxist, yes. Hitler, no. Stalin? Let’s just hold off one that one for now.

    Pablo (99243e)

  56. Stalin had balls and brains. Juggy is just an empty suit.

    (On the other hand … Saddam Hussein had balls and brains too and another empty suit used the resources of a great country to bring him down.)

    nk (95bfab)

  57. If we don’t learn from history we will always lose.

    What worked for the liberals will work for us. It will take a little bit of time but say it over and over during the next two years and it will sink in.

    We have two whole years. It doesn’t need to work at first.

    Obama is like Hitler. Obama is like Hitler. The first few times people might ignore you for saying that but after a short while they will start thinking, huh, perhaps they are right.

    Use Hitler, not Stalin. Sure Stalin SHOULD be as hated a figure as Hitler, but for whatever reason he isn’t. I have seen film of Hitler rallies more than I have seen film of Stalin speaking (actually I don’t know if I have ever seen film of Stalin doing his cult of personally thing. Posters, but not film.

    Steve (1d2ba2)

  58. There is some people who would rather lose and be nice than win and be mean.

    Well, if it was a sporting event, perhaps. But this is something very important. This is our country at stake.

    When so much as stake being nice is being a sucker.

    And a loser.

    Steve (1d2ba2)

  59. I agree with Ed in that we need to argue issues as much as possible. But, just like Darleen noted above, we also have to call them on their own vile and insulting statements and.or innuendo whenever they occur.

    And, while Obama and nazism may be a bit of a stretch-and let’s hope it stays that way!-he does advocate his civil national security force, and has demonstrated a propensity to unleash his own personal brownshirts to shout down, jam telephone lines and e-mail, and otherwise silence any critics or those persons who would try to reveal inconvenient truths from Obama’s past. Even now he is building an e-mail database to presumably use to issue action alerts to his supporters-millions of them; in order to pressure any politicians, or other societal leaders, that get in the way of his agenda…

    So, while civility is the order of the day, so is vigilance. I know that you have percieved Obama as a canny and ambitious, but basically good, politician, Patterico. But, he can also be percieved as striving for power, “by whatever means necessary…” Obama’s proven that he’ll employ strongarm tactics by loyal volunteers to intimidate his opposition. While this is a far cry from Gestapo, it is not so far from brownshirts; and that’s the last thing a free nation like ours needs…

    All the Best…

    Bob (99fc1b)

  60. There is some people who would rather lose and be nice than win and be mean.

    See “McCain, John”

    Pablo (99243e)

  61. Personally, I think we should take the high road, treat the liberal Democrats with all due respect and kindness.

    THEN, we shiv them in the back.

    Dave Surls (c04826)

  62. I remember him.

    happyfeet (5836ae)

  63. Mark #29:

    And what is the Democrats reward for this smear campaign? Almost complete control of the United States Government!

    So now I debate the Opening Post in my head constantly. Now I don’t want to act like the insane left and make up lie after lie to tarnish any of the Dems, but I will be damned if I sit back and don’t do anything.

    Ed Morrissey:

    No one will have any credibility left if we all give into the impulse to ack like the Kos Kiddies for the next two years.

    Of course not, the Kos Kiddies just won the election. Why would we want to win elections?

    bains (114bc0)

  64. “Heh. Love that thin skinned bit.”

    Oh, I know. As someone whose ego doesn’t get bruised by such commentary, you’ll probably bring it up at least four more times.

    Patterico – Ouch!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  65. I fully understand the desire to be and to look ‘reasonable’, but … something is gnawing at me, and its the fact that daily we see truth gets smothered by BS (Palin BS smears, while the obama-fest just gets mroe grandiose, conservatives simply written out of the story just like).

    That something is simple this: WE REALLY DON’T KNOW HOW BAD ITS GOING TO GET UNDER OBAMA. I think all those claims of Obama being a centrist are pollyanna BS from eggheads who are no different from those industrialists who backed Hitler (Danger! Godwin’s Law approacheth)… We DO know that his backgroud is steeped in radicalism and the most leftwing President is now paired with the most leftwing Congress in history. ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN.

    “Rep. Paul Broun, R-Georgia, recently said that he fears President-elect Obama may create a security force akin to the Gestapo to impose a Marxist dictatorship.”

    “Isn’t this what BHO referred to during the campaign when he said he wanted to establish a
    Civilian National Security Force on par with the military?”

    You know someone was trying to explain the national police force to me, which was mind-bogglig to me, and I first asked
    ‘oh, you mean the FBI?’
    he replied ‘No, no, a police force.’
    I still didnt get it ‘but we have a police force, local cops and all. more cops?’
    he says: “Yeah, but this is national.”

    “OH” says I “LIKE THE GESTAPO!”

    It came naturally, without malice toward Obama. If you dont see the GESTAPO analogy, you are not paying attention (and/or miss history).

    I don’t consider it hyperbole to talk about Obama’s economic program as socialism, nor do I think its hyperbole to talk about his fairness doctrine moves as an assault on the 1st amendment. So the comparison with the gestapo should not be ‘off limits’ simply because it seems harsh. the question is the truth behind it.

    I think self-censorship is more dangerous than spouting off in slippery-slope fashion about another lousy and dangerous Obama idea. Even if it turns out to be hyperbole, how is this worse than, for example, Dick Durbin’s comparison of Gitmo with Soviet gulag?

    The idea that somehow this comparison is off-limits is quite frankly more disturbing than the comment itself, and not that I wont come to disagree with it once the details are know.

    THE REASON WHY WE SHOULD RESIST THE CALLS TO SELF-CENSORSHIP ARE PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH A HEAVY AMOUNT OF MEDIA SELF-CENSORSHIP GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

    Let Broun make his point, he’s entitled as anyone to an opinion, and MAYBE just MAYBE people might be alerted to the implicit danger of adding centralized police powers, etc. Do any of us actually approve of this idea? If we disapprove what arguments do we have? And most importantly – WHAT ARGUMENTS DO WE HAVE THAT WILL ACTUALLY PENETRATE AND BE REPORTED THE OBAMEDIA???

    My fear is that being ‘reasonable’ is another path to being a permanent neutered minority that will be a mute witness to some horrible Obama policies. We WILL have to have an effective form of dissent, it WILL have to be cogent and articulate and reasoned, and not ‘black helicopter’ stuff. But its too soon to know if in fact, Broun’s comments are hyperbole or cassandra-like prophecy.

    In short, I am with the guy who said “I am wary of the lets not type of statements.”

    We are living in a brand-new America, and the possibilities are endless, so the Obamedia tells us. Let not limit the possibilities just yet, as we get our sea legs in this new era. No interest in being ODS sufferer, but I do have an interest in rolling back the leftist agenda.

    Travis Monitor (cfa2f1)

  66. Jeff’s objections has to to with the tools with which you chose to go into battle. From his, and my, perspecive you are condemning yourselves to failure because you acquiesce to rules, ever fickle yet established by your opponents, that govern the battle. You deem these rules sacrosanct all the while your opponents change the rules to guarantee their success. And you think it is noble to remain silent.

    bains (114bc0)

  67. And you think it is noble to remain silent.

    Bullshit. That’s the strawman that has been hurled at me all day, but I’m not advocating remaining silent, and I have a long track record of not remaining silent.

    If you wouldn’t mischaracterize my argument, it would be harder for you to refute.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  68. In Patterico’s defense, the fact this website exists is proof enough he is not silent for Conservatism.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  69. Patterico

    YOU are not silent. But when Ed extrapolates for one congresscritter to “we” he causes resentment amongst parts of the “we” who remember it was John Wayne that shot Liberty Valance, not Jimmy Stewart.

    Darleen (187edc)

  70. “In my opinion, we’ve elected a Marxist to be president of the United States,” Mr. Broun, R-Watkinsvile, said during a luncheon of the Martinez-Evans Rotary Club at the Doubletree Hotel….
    Mr. Broun qualified his remark, saying he believes Mr. Obama’s policies of bigger government and shared wealth are Marxist.

    “When Barack Obama is right, then I’ll support him,” he said. “When he is wrong, I’ll fight him.”

    Travis Monitor (cfa2f1)

  71. Dave Surls, good South Carolina man, continues to conflate, clumsily, Southern Democrats (pre-1964) with today’s Democrats. Point of fact, those democrats were conservatives, ask Strom, and the conservatives later became Republicans. Right it down and take it to the bank, Dave, you democratic grandfather wouldn’t understand your love of Republicans

    timb (8f04c0)

  72. bains – Love the caps!

    Jeff is all about intentionalism and has done great work about how the left has appropriated the meaning of certain words.

    I think what he has done with the posts of Patterico and Ed is overreact and intentionally misinterpret the intent of the authors. I don’t think reasonable people read those posts and come up with the strawmen that Jeff has created out of them. As Jeff clearly admits in his comments, no one used the words “let’s play nice” or anything similar, that is what Jeff intuits, interprets, or divines they meant, because Jeff is pissed off and wants to act like an OUTLAW!!!11!

    Patterico tried to explain his position to Jeff, but hey, Jeff doesn’t believe him. I guess words don’t mean anything when they are explained by the author and the left is not the only side who can appropriate meaning when it wants to. WELCOME TO THE BRAVE NEW WORLD!!eleventy!

    Seems pretty fucking stupid to me, but then again I’ve seen Jeff act this way before.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  73. Bains:

    Of course not, the Kos Kiddies just won the election. Why would we want to win elections?

    Right, ‘cuz we all know the Kos kiddies have a strong record of winning elections. “Bush is lying, people will soon be dying” may have gone a long way toward cementing the Democrats’ majority in the Senate in ’02, but it took “screw them” to fend off the Swiftboating charges against Vice President Kerry and land Howard Dean in the Oval Office. And those were in down years for the Dems! The up years were even more impressive, like when they ran Joe Lieberman out of the Senate in ’06. Oh wait…

    Sorry, Kool-Aid drinkers, but the Dems won this round despite the Kossacks, not because of them.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  74. Ed Morrissey is exactly on point. Republicans need to be very disciplined about what they say and how they say it. They need to avoid both Obama Derangement Syndrome and the spell of the fairy dust.

    The Republicans are in a precarious position, and they’ll have to walk a knife’s edge. That means sticking to facts. They need to let the Democrats engage in the invective that we all know they are only too eager to engage in. Republicans can’t or else will always be on the defensive and unable to stop the Democrats when they overreach. And they will overreach.

    For instance, this security force. It is worrisome that Barrack Obama believes we need a domestic civilian security force as large and well funded as the DoD. What possible domestic threat does he want to defend against that requires a force as large as that that defends us against all foreign threats? There are only a few possibilities. And I can think of exactly zero legitimate threats that would require an internal security force as large as our external security force or an entirely new internal security force in addition to the other domestic agencies tasked with that mission.

    The last thing Republicans need is Rep. Broun screaming about the Gestapo. The Republicans need, without first diluting their message with effusive praise or making themselves irrelevant and ineffective by accusing him of being evil incarnate, to force Obama to make a specific, clear case for this unprecedented and ominous development that clearly poses at least a potential threat to civil liberties. He won’t be able to do it. Especially because with the right motivation, and it won’t take much, people like Reid, Pelosi, Murtha, etc., will shoot their mouths off about what they really think about their own citizenry and undermine his case. And convince a lot of Americans to be at least a wee bit suspicious about the nature of the threat this force, which won’t be securing the borders, intends to keep an eye on.

    A small, disciplined force can defeat a larger less cohesive force if it picks its fights. Remember, there are a lot of blue dogs in the House and Senate that won’t go along with the dangerous stupidity if their constituents (not Rep. Broun) see it as dangerous stupidity. Republicans can’t afford opposition for opposition’s sake. But when the Democrats come up with truly dangerous, merely harmful, or just wasteful ideas, the Republicans need to encourage the Democrat fringe to make that case. That’s more than doable.

    Steve (4c0d33)

  75. See, Steve, that makes sense to me. But I spent the day at Goldstein’s place, where some people would call you a “pussy” for making the cogent argument you just made.

    daleyrocks, I think you’re spot on there.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  76. Sorry, Kool-Aid drinkers, but the Dems won this round despite the Kossacks, not because of them.

    Xrlq,

    That’s how I feel too. You’ll run into a ton of people on our side, however, who seem convinced that we lost this election because we weren’t nasty enough.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  77. Xrlq:

    Sorry, Kool-Aid drinkers, but the Dems won this round despite the Kossacks, not because of them.

    Without question! What is at question is why they won. Could be John McCain himself, could be the Republican Administration of the past 8 years, could be the abysmal GOP led congress of 1997-2002,2003-2007.

    A large part could be that we’ve settled in to fighting battles with punitive rules set by the left. Am I racist for opposing Barack? Am I racist for uttering stupid comments like macacca? Am I racist for offering salutations at birthday party? Should David Brooks be the spokesman for the right?

    No, what I am tired of is allowing the left to paint us into Dante’s (language) hell. The words that I speak mean what I say, not what some perpetually outraged Boulderite proclaims. If you want to continually apologize for what they say I mean, you are handing the left the keys to the nation.

    bains (114bc0)

  78. One thing that has to be addressed is how to nulify the vast propaganda network that is available to the Left.
    What would GWB’s approval ratings look like if he hadn’t been consistently attacked and denigrated every day, in every way, by the media?
    The media has demonstrated that no matter what the lie, if it is told enough times, for a long enough period, substantial numbers of people will believe it.

    Another Drew (6a5b36)

  79. The media has demonstrated that no matter what the lie, if it is told enough times, for a long enough period, substantial numbers of people will believe it.

    And yet, so many on our side still pretend that if they are nice to such an adversarial media, to play by their rules, our message will filter through.

    bains (114bc0)

  80. But the Democrats did win without rebuking the Kos Kids. That is different from ‘the Democrats won in spite of the Kos Kids’.

    Name one prominent Democrat who rebuked Senator Obama for not putting his hand over his heart during the national anthem.

    Name one Democrat who rebuked John Murtha for calling soldiers ‘cold blooded killers’.

    Name one prominent Democrat who rebuked the New York Times for publishing classified information.

    Name one prominent Democrat who rebuked MoveOn for their General Betray-us ad.

    Name one prominent Democrat who rebuked Sen. Dodd or any other Friends of Angelo; or Rep. Barney there-is-no-problem Frank.

    Adriane (b8ecd8)

  81. I never said that the Dems rebuked the nutroots. I said the nutroots didn’t help them in ’06 or ’08, probably did help them lose in ’02 and ’04.

    Xrlq (62cad4)

  82. The fringe of both sides like to believe their support was critical to the side winning. And when their side loses, they attribute the blame on the candidate’s refusal to follow their agenda.

    Of course, both sides are delusional in this regard. Echoing Xrlq, a candidate wins despite the support from the crazies that back him. And often the major reason a candidate loses is because they were seen as too subservient to the demands of the fringe.

    The fringe is, by definition, a minority whose views are not shared by upwards of 85% of the population (news flash: people don’t vote for people espousing views they disagree with). It’s thus ludicrous to argue that McCain would have won if only he had followed the advice of the rabid right. In fact, he lost because he was seen as too close to the right (as evidenced by his picking Palin, his voting 90% along with Bush, etc.).

    stevesturm (369bc6)

  83. I mentioned this point in another thread but if you don’t think teh NUTS ROOTS had anything to do with their win you are lost.

    Most, if not all, of the lies picked up by the Media that we ate up and the “Marketable” talking points picked up by Democrats are idea germanating by the NutRoots.

    They are not the car which crosses the finish line but they certainly are the gas. (to use an eco-unfriendly analogy)

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  84. You need an energized base to propel turnout as well as to beat back the other side. Question the media. Evangelize to your friends. Etc.

    Why did Hilary lose if not becasue of the Nut Roots crowd? Why did Joe Lieberman get tossed in a Senate race if not Nut Roots types?

    You can argue primaries are “not the same” but unless you can get through the primaries …….

    The base is luke warm about Republicans and that carried through in 2006 and 2008.

    Robert Rodriguez (54247e)

  85. 82, Herr Sturm, McNuggets lost because he NEVER gave the people a reason to vote for him.

    Yes, Obama is a Marxist. Yes, Obama lies and hides information he, himself, said should be available to the public. Yes, Obama is a hypocrite because he calls others selfish when they don’t want to share their wealth, but he never shares his wealth.

    PCD (7fe637)

  86. Patterico

    JeffG didn’t call you a “pussy” and you seem particularly aggrieved that others did.

    JeffG has never been “fringe” and the OUTLAW!1!1! thing is theater to make a point. Obama and his far left admin is now the establishment, The Man, and if we are going to be the opposition to President/Congress that has during the campaign shown it uses brass knuckles, we can’t be the Church Lady sitting there saying “Isn’t that special.”

    I mean, camp O was did everything from a DOS style shut down of a radio station to attempting to sic the DOJ on a declared “enemy”. Obama used his nutroots to do that. Not to mention his minions using government resources to try and get Joe the Plumber. And the O! campaign will not be held account for any of it. Certainly the financing shennigans and fraud therein will never be looked at.

    You think a President Obama will sit still for any criticism of him or his policies while in office when he didn’t while he campaigned?

    Puh-leeeze. He’s bringing in Henry Rivera as transition czar for the FCC.

    Remember, Patterico, the McCain campaign refused to drive home the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac thing for one reason only…because they were afraid of being called “racist”. McCain let the Obama campaign control the narrative.

    Republicans cannot allow that to continue during the next 2 years or you will see not just a Senate super majority but even “reasonable” opposition voices silenced. As Schumer has said, he finds [conservative] political speech the equivalent of p0rnography and thus subject to [Democrat] regulation.

    Darleen (187edc)

  87. I will not support Obama unless he supports the issues I agree with. That is reality. I did not vote for him and think he is worse than a corrupt Hillary.

    He is not my President. He is the President elect and I have to accept that. I do accept that. But I will oppose a liberal agenda, anti gun agenda and foolish feel good foreign policy.

    RAH (8044c4)

  88. Kevin Murphy #31

    The left did not win this election by screaming, they won it by too many things going wrong on our watch.

    I agree with that to a point. First the screaming left did not win this election by screaming, they won it by inspiring their leadership, which was willingly aided by the MSM, to subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, undermine the President at every turn. The Democrats took every opportunity to grandstand and the MSM never looked under the hood, they only passed along the Democratic message… “Bush did it, the sky is falling and it’s Bush’s fault”. Your comment about the things that went wrong on “our watch” is a prime example, and my second point. If you were to look at the things that “went wrong” on our watch you would see that the vast majority of them can be layed almost completely at the Democrats feet, but the MSM did not do their job of honest journalism. For example, if the MSM spent 1/10th the time exposing the Democrat~Fannie Mae connections (and throw in the bum Repugs that were feeding at the trough with them) as they did the Enron deal, that alone would have effected the results of this election… and that is just one example, out of many, that I could cite.

    m #32

    Another coffee break spent typing! 🙂

    I don’t know that I Expressed myself well enough. I am only saying I won’t stoop to the Kos~sack’s level of smear by starting lie after lie, basically throwing s*%t on the wall knowing that some will stick. I will point out everything I view as a misstep to everyone I know, but even above that, I will do everything I can to make people aware of the bias in the media.

    One small example that I used to snap some of my patients out of their zombie mode was the media’s cultivation of the Michelle templet. For the majority of the year the media had compared Michelle to Jackie Onassis, fawning over her wonderful wardrobe, especially the ones designed by Mario Pinto, and describing her fashion as “the opposite of Talbots-y”. However, once it was leaked out that the RNC spent $150,000 on Sarah Palin and family, it was not full week before Michelle miraculously had a spot on Leno. There, after a wonderfully crafted question, she stated that she was wearing a “J. Crew ensemble” and that she shops on line! I had three different patients, who did not know each other, at three different times, tell me how “down to earth” she was… all three used that exact quote! When I told them that they had been brainwashed they thought I was crazy. I just told them to go home and google “Michelle Obama” and either “Jackie Onassis” or “Mario Pinto” and see just how “down to earth” she is.

    I could go into several others, which I am sure is only preaching to the choir, but I do have to run and earn a living… seeing that i am most likely going to have may tax bracket restructured! And again, I am NOT willing to go quitely into that good night!

    Hope you all have a great day.

    Mark (b31ddd)

  89. My 2 cents:

    The GOP lost because they wouldn’t fight back. If the Republican Party’s paid professionals and national office holders won’t take the lead in standing up to the Left’s smears, then electoral victory is an illusion, a fairy tale. It just ain’t in the cards. I’m not suggesting the use of the Left’s underhanded methods, I’m clearly advocating answering the Left’s smears so forcefully, with facts, with humor, and with precision, that the pain and damage inflected on the smear merchants makes them run for cover, fold their tents, and slink off into the shadows.

    This is manifestly different from adopting the unhinged insanity characteristic of the modern Left. Smears must be answered, not with more smears and not with ignorance or anger, but with cold, hard, cutting facts. The kind of in-your-face facts that strip a smear naked and expose the perpetrators for public scorn.

    George W Bush sat silently while the left called him every name in the book, lied about him virtually every day, made fun of his walk, his talk, his wife, even his hat and his dog. They turned around and opposed the very war they voted for, and got away with it. The Left destroyed Bush over the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It was the ultimate “gotcha” and Bush let them get away with it. Bush had the “bully pulpit” but refused to use it for fear the left-wing MSM would make fun of the way he talks. Pathetic, weak, cowardly, and stupid.

    When the NY Times published classified information revealing how the US was tracking terrorist money transfers, Bush could have reacted with swift determination. If Bush was serious about fighting the war against terrorism, he would have jailed the reporters and editors responsible for printing the story, then shut the paper down till new management was in place. That’s the kind of leadership the American people respect, the kind they will support with their votes.

    The problem with the GOP is Republicans, those cowards like Trent Lott who undermined the impeachment of Bill Clinton, like John McCain who collaborated with Rus Finegold, and the gang of 14, and like George W Bush who teamed with Ted Kennedy for an education bill, Bush who gave us a new entitlement, and who refused to secure the border. Republicans don’t deserve to hold office and the sure don’t deserve our votes.

    Ropelight (1dddd9)

  90. Xrlq –

    I disagree. By not rebuking the nutroots, you are implicitly stating that lying is OK, that BDS is OK, etc.

    It works with young voters as many of them have no historical reference for evaluating lies, especially political ones. George Washington, ‘I can not tell a lie, Father.’ and all that.

    It works with women voters. Look at the bilge coming off of Oprah and/or The View. These are not fringe publications, these are national syndicated tv shows with high production values.

    By having the nutroots around, you keep the hands clean of the prominent democrats. And in doing so force the fight to multiple levels. A Republican candidate has to defend himself on the nutsroots level and on the prominent Democrat level. A Democratic candidate only has to defend himself on the issues.

    Adriane (b8ecd8)

  91. I understand completely why Goldstein is reacting the way that he did. It seems to me that every talk show I listen to, every blog I visit, every prominent conservative that I hear, is bending over backwards to make points about how Obama is “their” president too, and just generally showing how magnanimous they are. It seems to me that they are all climbing over each other in a contest about who can be more CLASSY. Now, this in and of itself isn’t a bad thing, but it is what it heralds that is the problem.
    Defeated Democrats in the past 8 years took their anger and made it work for them. They used that anger, for all of its admittedly despicable acts, and used it TO WIN. They first took back the house and the senate, and now the presidency. I would like to thing that Republicans could just be classy and win elections, but that obviously is not what happens in the real world. ANd this attitude of self indulgent high handed, magnaminity can only lead to one thing: More losses for republicans. I am not saying we need to stoop as low as democrats did, but I AM saying that we need to show a little fire and we need to start playing for keeps.. Unfortunately, that means that sometimes we are going to have to be a little less than classy. If all conservatives are starting out after this latest loss worrying more about appearing honorable and accepting of Obama, instead of feeling a little passion and anger at the way Bush was treated and the way that Obama won, and the direction of the country under the awful triumvirate of Reid, Pelosi, Obama, then I am afraid that we have already lost.

    And THAT is what Goldstein is trying to point out, correctly. It is time to put our game faces on. We lost, obama is NOT a good guy, and neither are the rest of the leftwingers in control of the country right now. We are at a crossroads and if we don’t start pinning our ears back, this COUNTRY IS LOST.

    Jim P (a59306)

  92. “And THAT is what Goldstein is trying to point out, correctly.”

    JimP – I understand that and agree that Obama is a bad person and have said so on this blog. To me what was originally objectionable that people are skipping over is that JeffG accused Patterico of writing his post because he wanted congratulations and slaps on the back. Complete bullshit in my book and as Patterico explained to Jeff. Jeff basically called him a liar, which is not cool in my book. I disagreed with the content of Patterico’s post, but I did not call him a liar over his motives for writing it. There’s a huge freaking difference that people are forgetting about when they come here to shit on Patterico.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  93. i get the ‘don’t act like the unhinged left bit, but don’t think it will work. see we’re gonna be blamed for everything that doesn’t go his lordship’s way; they’ll continue to see us a ‘racists’ for opposing their golden man; they will continue to villify us. if we don’t defend ourselves, we’ll go down. don’t think for a minute that pretending to be an obama stooge will lessen their vile rhetoric.

    ktr (4b0941)

  94. i get the ‘don’t act like the unhinged left bit, but don’t think it will work. see we’re gonna be blamed for everything that doesn’t go his lordship’s way; they’ll continue to see us a ‘racists’ for opposing their golden man; they will continue to villify us. if we don’t defend ourselves, we’ll go down. don’t think for a minute that pretending to be an obama stooge will lessen their vile rhetoric.

    Nobody’s saying we shouldn’t defend ourselves. Just that conservatives in general and Congressional Republicans in particular need to be smart about how we will do so. Also, if you haven’t noticed it’s a little early to start defending. Screaming “Gestapo” before he’s in office and has actually attempted anything concrete isn’t very smart. At the moment we need to keep our powder dry, not provide soundbites before there’s anything to push back against. Nobody knows exactly what Obama will try to do, how much he will bite off initially.

    If the reality of Obama’s initial steps are far, far less ominous than the reaction that they’ve provoked from Rep. Broun warrants, Broun and everyone like him just look ridiculous. Have you considered the possibility the provocation may well be deliberate, for precisely that reason? If done enough times, all that you’ve accomplished is to inoculate your audience against your protests. And suppose, for the sake of argument, Obama eventually does propose something truly fascist. How do you describe it if you’ve already wasted the strongest terms available on less?

    Steve (57ce45)

  95. “…Obama is “their” president too, and just generally showing how magnanimous they are. It seems to me that they are all climbing over each other in a contest about who can be more CLASSY. Now, this in and of itself isn’t a bad thing, but it is what it heralds that is the problem.”

    I saw a bumpersticker saying that Bush isn’t My President.

    Well, if the Left can say that about Bush, I can say that about Obama.

    We should offer him no help at all.

    Kurt (63ee75)

  96. As Republicans, we definitely need to support our president or move out of the country. That doesn’t mean, however, that we have to be blind to his leftist illuminati practices of going against his campaign promises without raising a stink about it.

    Jeff (3cb047)

  97. “Screaming “Gestapo” before he’s in office and has actually attempted anything concrete isn’t very smart. ”

    I disagree. As you said he hasn’t even taken office yet. So we shouldn’t expect such talk to have any effect – NOW!

    But what did the left do? They started calling him names and at first it had little effect but they did so over and over again and by the end of it the name calling was effective.

    The importance is repeat, repeat, repeat, and eventually it will sink in. You shouldn’t expect it to have any effect now but it will build and build until it finally does indeed have an effect.

    If your strategy worked then the Left would have failed. They used their strongest words at the beginning and they kept using them. But there wasn’t an “here they go again” effect. There was quite an opposite effect. An “hey they might be on to something effect”.

    So, no attack him in the strongest terms possible before he gets into office and keep attacking. No, it won’t have any effect at first, but it doesn’t have to. It will eventually be quite effective.

    Kurt (63ee75)

  98. Kurt – Who did you vote for?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  99. Chuck Baldwin.

    Unfortunately McCain was the greater of the two evils because what he would have done to the Republican party.

    But the point is you don’t win by being “nice”. Conservatives have been “ladies and gentlemen” for years and have continued losing ground. We must be prepared to “get our hands dirt” and “play in the dirt” or otherwise just accept permanent defeat.

    Kurt (63ee75)

  100. It is time to respond to the
    BUSH – Selected, Not Elected
    bumper stickers with…

    OBAMA – Bought & Paid For

    Another Drew (51839f)

  101. I think you’re missing the point on this one, Patterico. Jeff’s argument is not that conservatives should be delusional in their opposition to Obama, or that Captain Ed explicitly called conservatives delusional. But it’s a pretty obvious inference from Captain Ed’s argument that he believes conservatives are beginning to act delusional, or are on the verge of doing so. Otherwise, why even make the argument? And this fairly clear implication by Morrissey is principally what Jeff appears to disagree with.

    To say that Obama’s proposed compulsory service corps. represents a stark departure from the traditional notion of American government, and is uncomfortably similar to policies that have held sway under fascistic governments in the past, is not unhinged, nor is it equivalent to saying “Obama is Hitler”.

    In short, Jeff’s argument is that Morrissey, and to some extent you, are trying to pre-emptively discredit legitimate criticisms of Obama’s actual policy proposals, due to an unwarranted fear that conservatives are going to embarrass themselves.

    ashowalt (c2ad8e)

  102. Jeff is wrong.

    Any “rules” of respect regarding how one responds to a President of the party you opposed were thrown off the table after what I have seen from the Left the last eight years (and I didn’t really like Bush myself).

    I feel that “the enemy within” is a bigger threat than any external enemy. And therefore I proudly say – Not My President! Just like the Left did during the Bush years.

    OBAMA – Sorros’ President – Not Mine.

    Sorros + ACORN = OBAMA.

    My Messiah is a Carpenter not a corrupt politician.

    BO is Full of BS.

    America – Where any Foreigner Can grow up to become President.

    Obama – Odinga’s man in Washington.

    Obama – Why Hide Your Birth certificate?

    Kurt (5b19ff)

  103. At this point of the game we must choose the correct target of our (nonviolent) protest. And that is clearly the GOP. I don’t think their days are over. Politics is a pendulum. People are going to want change again someday (I am guessing real soon) and then they will turn back to the GOP. But if the GOP just gives them socialism lite as they have the last 20 years, such a victory will be short lived. The point is that when the weather changes we must be in control of the GOP. That is why I believe the goal of the conservative movement must be anti-GOP. Well anti-GOP as it currently stands.

    We must not let our legitimate hatred of Obama and the Democrats make us lose focus. First things first. First we need to have the alternative which means changing the GOP. And we must be visible and vocal against its current leadership. Once we change the GOP, then and only then will we be ready to take on “the One”.

    Kurt (e193ea)

  104. Comment by Kurt — 11/14/2008 @ 3:37 pm
    Dan Lungren (R-Sacramento, CA) is mounting a challenge to John Boehner for House Minority Leader.

    Another Drew (4f04a0)


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