Patterico's Pontifications

The greatest mistake that the American people have made is to turn their education over to the lunatic education establishment who produce morons like this.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/8/2008 @ 7:50 pm

Unions produce this level of mental retardation. Only the worst stay b/c the truly talented want no part in it.

But the entire Public Education establishment is a compilation of ass clowns who think more money and bloated payrolls is the way to teach — a race to bottom of the toilet if you ask me.

Let us face facts, schools where better 50 years ago when you had 40 students per teacher and the teacher was forced to teach a few subjects (make them well rounded) and focused on the basic subjects (3Rs, History, etc).

Now many schools consider it a crime to have one teacher with more than 15 kids teaching more than two subjects. The list of classes is interminable and useless.

Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:10 pm

The list of classes is interminable and useless…………….. and of no use to a modern world where incresingly math, science, logic and reasoning, history and the such are needed.

GYM and Sex Ed? Oh dear. Typing? Ug.

Robert Rodriguez (54247e) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:12 pm

This one got caught.

happyfeet (5836ae) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:19 pm

Pat,

I sent this to the board, just minutes ago…

Hi there!

I’m just an interested party, and I’m about to help you.

I refer you, to your fifth grade teacher – D. Harris, and her well-meaning comments on ‘International TV’, regarding her political views, and terrorizing and humiliating those same 5th graders in your school district, whose fathers/mothers are defending this great country.

I have viewed the video, at length, and I understand she’s claimed the video – “edited”, and therefore, I am in the process of obtaining the raw footage. (Which actually may be worse, I’m pretty sure that if the producers “scrubbed” the footage, and if they did, they did it to her advantage.)

I am no longer amused at the results of a publicly funded, government dictated, politically motivated educational system in the U.S., and your educational system. particularly. Therefore, statements such as ‘”McCain, Oh, Jesus!” and “100 years” and “It’s a senseless war.” are just pouring gasoline on a fire, that occured later that night, in a military home, that didn’t need it.

“Your daddy could stay in the military for another 100 years”, could only be descerned as terrorism. Literally, she was scaring a fifth grader – to the death of her father. And she knew it, – she did it on camera. There is NO disputing that.

When I get the raw footage, I will check back on this very website, and if she is still employed, gainfully in any capacity, by this school district, without a full reason for her dismissal, on this website, then I will release the full unedited version of the video, along with the addresses at the top of this email, and full bio’s from your website pages. ( I have all your bio’s, I have ’em, no need to airbrush…)

Your choice, but I insist…

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:24 pm

Rob-Rod… your posts clearly show you know nothing about the education system.

Teachers now have to be deemed “highly qualified”. This new stipulation, which was introduced as a part of NCLB, makes it difficult for teachers to be licensed in any more than one subject.

Furthermore, your opinion really carries no weight without any support. You may claim that classrooms with 15 kids in it do not function as well as those with 40 but statistics will not support that.

Did you go to school 50 years ago? Did they teach you the difference between the words ‘were’ and ‘where’?

I certainly do not condone the behavior of this particular teacher, but you’re attacking idiocy with stupidity. I assume you will comment only on subjects in which you may legitimately claim to have some sort of basic knowledge in the future.

truthnjustice (c313be) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:28 pm

Dear TruthnJustice:

(#6):” Furthermore, your opinion really carries no weight without any support. You may claim that classrooms with 15 kids in it do not function as well as those with 40 but statistics will not support that.

Actually that is a myth and Mr. Robert Rodriguez statement is supported by numerous studies. Class size has no measurable effect on academic achievement (which surprised me as well).

“There have been close to 300 separate studies nation-wide on the relationship between class size and student achievement. Professor Eric Hanushek, an economist at the University of Rochester, reviewed these studies and discovered that only 15 percent of them suggest that reducing class size improves student learning as measured by standardized tests.

Indeed, in 72 percent of the studies reviewed, there was no statistically significant effect on measurable student achievement associated with smaller classes. Even more surprisingly, in 13 percent of the studies reviewed, student test scores actually declined as class size was reduced. In sum, a full 85 percent of all of the studies on class size and student achievement found that reducing class size did not improve student performance.”

from
http://www.cato.org/research/articles/armentano-030811.html

Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:42 pm

The public education racket…where those like this one just “end up”.

Shameful.

Andrew (0a9058) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:45 pm

I love a story with a happy ending. But I want to know what this guy considers “appropriate.”

Waterboarding?

Xrlq (62cad4) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:46 pm

Mr. “truthnjustice”, I have another take on why teachers can’t be certified as “highly qualified”. Because they’re not–highly qualified that is, other than to belong to a union and to demand more pay for less work. You can put lipstick on a bigger paycheck and put it in their pocket(s), but you won’t improve the education that they can deliver.

And I did go to schools with classrooms of 35-40 kids some 50 plus years ago. K-12 in my case was 1949-1961. I can still do arithmetic and make change in my head–while the poor 18 or 19 year old behind a point of sale terminal –having been taught by “highly qualified” teachers in classrooms of 15 or so, doesn’t have the ghost of a clue. And even in those days (49-51) there were gifted teachers who could inspire and some who were “not so much” in that regard.

Mike Myers (31af82) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:47 pm

In 1998, acting on President Clinton’s call for action, Congress began the seven year Class Size Reduction program. The program’s goal is to increase academic performance by limiting the number of students in a classroom to no more than 18.

The program provided $1.2 billion during the fiscal year 1999 and $1.3 billion in 2000. These federal dollars enabled school districts to hire an estimated 29,000 new teachers for the 1999-2000 school year and provide professional development. In 90,000 classrooms, the average class size in grades 1-3 has gone from 23 to 18, and 1.7 million young children are learning in a smaller, more personalized classroom. Class Size Reduction funds have enabled some states to initiate reform and others to help fund current programs.

In Wisconsin, SAGE (Student Achievement Guarantee in Education) was initiated in 1996 in an effort to increase the academic achievement of economically disadvantaged students. This program reduced the classroom ratio to 15:1 in grades K-3.

Test scores of SAGE students between 1996-97 and 1998-99 show that reducing classroom size leads to higher academic performance. The scores of 9,876 students in grades 1-3 in 30 public schools in the SAGE program were compared to those of students in 16 non-participating schools. On the Terra Nova edition of the Comprehensive Tests of Basic Skills, SAGE students scored an average of 10 points higher than those in the comparison groups. The study also concluded that in most cases, African-American students showed even more improvement than white students. Evidence of the program’s success prompted the governor and state legislature to increase funding, allowing more schools to participate.

Increased scores are only one of the benefits of such programs. SAGE teachers noted fewer discipline problems, making the school safer. Stronger, more solid relationships exist between teachers and students, creating a more positive environment. Potential problems can be addressed more quickly. Students who are having problems are more easily identified, and teachers are better able to offer or find help.

Fewer discipline issues means more continuous instructional time, with fewer interruptions. Students stay on task and are actively involved in learning for longer periods of time, enabling them to delve deeper into a subject and more fully cover the curriculum. This increases the likelihood of reaching grade-level objectives. Because of the increased learning opportunities, many students exceed grade-level requirements by the end of the year and gain more confidence in their ability to learn. A more solid foundation in educational basics results in higher achievement levels, increasing the chance of academic success.

Smaller class size allows for more individualization. Students have more opportunities to share their thoughts and work and receive more feedback from the teacher and peers. As students display their knowledge, teachers can target strengths and weaknesses and determine where assistance is needed. With more opportunities to practice, ask questions, and receive feedback, students gain a better and deeper understanding of the lesson.

Reducing classroom size also improves teacher morale and increases job satisfaction. Less time is spent on discipline and classroom management, enabling teachers to focus more on lessons, engage in hands-on educational activities, and help students in the learning process. More flexibility in instructional strategies allows them to incorporate new techniques, projects, and activities that a larger classroom would prohibit.

The Tennessee Project STAR (Student-Teacher Achievement Ratio) data shows that students who spent more years in small classes experienced greater gains in achievement than those who participated fewer years. Data shows that the benefits of participating in smaller classes continued long after students returned to an average-size class.

Critics of this reform movement cite increased expense and hiring underqualified teachers as shortcomings. They also note that reducing the number of students in a classroom does not automatically produce these results. Professional development that helps teachers incorporate more hands-on and critical thinking activities is essential.

This study suggests that class size reduction does work. Huh… Sounds like you have cited a Heritage Foundation research project that decided what the findings would be before undertaking.

truthnjustice (c313be) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:54 pm

Re Class Size
FWIW my wife taught in elementary ed for several years in Japan. Her average class size was 40-45 students. Kept her busy but the kids seemed to do fine. Japan’s rankings through the nineties were always in the top.
The kids in elementary schools actually have to clean up classrooms and sweep hallways. I know that would cause too many lawsuits from parents and unions here but it was nice to see in action.

voiceofreason2 (a2141a) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:56 pm

You can’t simultaneously require more schooling and stricter standards for a profession while refusing to increase pay to attract individuals to the profession. The problems you are detailing are direct result of a reduction in standards in the hiring of (some…. the educators I am familiar with are quite good) teachers. Without the incentive of a solid wage the best and brightest are simply choosing other professions.

truthnjustice (c313be) — 11/8/2008 @ 8:59 pm

Whatever this child abuser is being paid – it is too much. But thanks to her union, she will remain in a position to continue abusing children.

Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:04 pm

Without the unions, districts would simply fire teachers as they acquire experience in order to make budgets.

truthnjustice (c313be) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:08 pm

truthnjustice,

Your excerpt is from a summary of a 2000 Class Size Reduction study conducted primarily in Tennessee kindergarten classes. Here’s a follow-up summary that notes the results across all grades are inconclusive.

DRJ (cb68f2) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:08 pm

#6
Perfect, so she terrorized 40 insread of 15. That argument is in the bucket right now, as I contact the base information officers at Pope Air Force base, and Fort Bragg, home of the 82nd, and let them know what happened.

#7
This isn’t about standardized tests, this is about domestic terrorism, again… watch the video.

#8
Absolutely. I’m thinking some position far removed from children, forever.

#9

Waterboarding? As long as it’s a path to unemployment.

#10

This is a no brainer, this one thinks “axe” is the verb “to ask”. Qualified to teach 5th grade?

Not my kids, and I hope not yours.

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:13 pm

Why are we discussing class sizes…

Is it really important HOW MANY STUDENTS SHE TRAUMATIZED, AT ONCE?

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:16 pm

Thanks for the link, DRJ. The report indicated that the biggest drawbacks for the decreased class size was the difficulty in finding qualified teachers.

truthnjustice (c313be) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:18 pm

What is strange is that the parents of the girl in the video said they are used to the teacher doing things like that and aren’t interested in seeing her fired. strange…

voiceofreason2 (a2141a) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:20 pm

How can this teacher even be consider ‘highly qualified’ per our education standards when she cannot even speak correct english?

And as for class size? Growing up my classes always had 30-40 students in them (and I graduated in ’89 so we’re not talking 50 years ago here) and I think I am all the better for it. We wonder why kids today are not learning how to think for themselves? Why should they? With smaller class sizes they have ready access to their teacher to do their thinking for them. With a larger class you actually have to try to figure things out for yourself first before trying to get a teacher to help and most of the time you can figure it out for yourself without getting the teacher involved. Small class size and individual attention = no need to even try to figure it out/think for yourself, the teacher will be around in 5 minutes anyways.

A Californian (485ef9) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:22 pm

That teacher ought to be fired.

Dave Surls (02e01f) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:34 pm

Fine we’ll discuss class size, (like it’s relevant to WHAT IS ACTUALLY TAUGHT!)

The parents are active military, and can’t afford to pi$$ off the new Obama in-charge?

But, I don’t hear from the other 40 or 50 kids or their parents.

And I for one, will not tolerate that kind of political bias being force fed to anyone, by antone in authority in my country…

Granted, 40 is worse than 15…

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:37 pm

Dear Docjohn:

You are correct; what happened to the girl was unconscionable. She was preyed upon by an adult cad (a dishonorable one at that) in a position of authority. (Why are these people hired?)

That poor girl was demeaned; the pained expression in her face was heartbreaking – to have this happen is despicable, especially in a place where she had every reason to feel safe.

— The classroom size debate another time, (the Earth IS round).

Pons Asinorum (f0d1b9) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:38 pm

“I assume you will comment only on subjects in which you may legitimately claim to have some sort of basic knowledge in the future.”

tnj – When has the above caveat stayed your hand from commenting, asshat. You claim you arrived at this site to expose hypocrisy yet the only hypocrisy you seem successful at exposing is your own.

I thought you said you were done here. We want to remember you unfondly. We can’t do that if you don’t leave as promised.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:38 pm

Pos,

Thank you sir or madame, a voice of reason finally!

I was begining to think I was invisible… like the thread didn’t exist.

Under-color-of-authority usually connects to a felony sentence. And I just watched the video again…

That is genuinely disturbing. Thanks for the heads up…

I can only assume ‘daleyrocks’ is a chicago politico, bent on trolling, so I leave it at this

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:50 pm

“Without the unions, districts would simply fire teachers as they acquire experience in order to make budgets.”

tnj – Absolutely brilliant! Party line swallowed 100%! No need to justify existence or perform, the union will protect us. Pay us more though and we promise to teach harder and better. Hey, you fell for it last time!

Meanwhile, those poor rubes in the private sector who don’t have unions looking out for them, man those evil corporations will fire them left and right as they gain experience to save some bucks. Those proles gotta justify their existence all the time. Must suck to be them.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:59 pm

I wouldn’t count on her being disciplined for this. Not that she shouldn’t be. She should. But I read a sympathetic (to the teacher) news story that interviewed her and communicated with the victim girl and her parents. They all agreed that she meant nothing by it and she is always “playing” with students like that”. (Not an exact quote, but very close.) The girl is not upset, nor are the parents…blah, blah, blah.

My guess is that the parents don’t want to risk their child getting a “well deserved” beating for causing problems for an African American teacher.

Mike Jackson (a7da41) — 11/8/2008 @ 9:59 pm

Daleyrocks

If they fire teachers – then they fire teachers – in the private sector more experienced personnel are constantly haveing to justifyu their performance – heaven forbid we demand it with the peoples money

EricPWJohnson (cc9286) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:01 pm

Docjohn – I can only assume you are a new visitor here and not familiar with the regulars.

I will leave it at that.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:02 pm

EricPW – Exactly. I wish they would do that. I was mocking tnj’s fears and how they don’t have to play by the same set of rules virtually the 90% of the U.S. workforce operates under yet consider themselves victims.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:09 pm

Nothing worse than an employee in a position where they cannot within reason ever lose their job.

We all can go back and forth on studies all having some different but good points but what I’ve observed close up from 25 plus years advising and working with business owners

1. Employees are motivated to perform well to get better wages

2. Employees are motivated by layoffs and work reductions to perform well to keep their jobs.

These are always the top 2 reasons employees do well

EricPWJohnson (cc9286) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:16 pm

EricPW @ 32 – I agree.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:21 pm

Without the unions, districts would simply fire teachers as they acquire experience in order to make budgets.

Speaking from personal experience, the teachers union (in new york at least) is the single most corrupt body of human beings I’ve ever encountered, and my brother is a teamster (not by choice though).

Taltos (4dc0e8) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:25 pm

No I’m new,

If I’vwe offended a regular, I’m sorry…

Docjohn (5ffda5) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:28 pm

Docjohn – No offense taken. I just suggest going easy on making assumptions on the commenters until you get the lay of the land. tnj is a left wing troll who usually just comes here to stir the pot and adds nothing. This post got him a little riled up so maybe it hit close to home.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/8/2008 @ 10:33 pm

This is the thing for our left of center friends here to consider.

What if there was a teacher in Northern Idaho, who mocked a black student for supporting Obama: “Well, that Obama will Hope and Change us into the poorhouse! Hoo boy, just tell your daddy to pay my taxes, too, because they are going to skyrocket!”

Union or not, that teacher would be fired so quickly his or her head would spin.

Teacher need to NOT put politics in the classroom. People who say it doesn’t matter only do so when it is politics with which they agree being pushed in the classroom.

Eric Blair (a723e0) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:35 pm

truthnjustice — 11/8/2008 @ 9:18 pm:

Thanks for the link, DRJ. The report indicated that the biggest drawbacks for the decreased class size was the difficulty in finding qualified teachers.

I think the report is more complicated than your summary but let’s assume that is the biggest drawback. That alone would be a valid reason to reconsider mandating smaller class sizes. The cost of hiring more and more teachers (not to mention building more classrooms to house them in) might not be worth the reportedly marginal benefits realized by reduced class size.

DRJ (cb68f2) — 11/8/2008 @ 11:49 pm

DRJ

And hen they’res the Union vs Non Union report….

EricPWJohnson (cc9286) — 11/9/2008 @ 12:10 am

What’s going to happen to the girl? She has a lot of black classmates. They don’t like it when one of their own gets disciplined, especially because of some white girl.

Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c) — 11/9/2008 @ 1:38 am

I remain proud as hell of Utah schools as being one of the least dollar to student funded systems in the nation, as well consistently out performing, Academically, much of the rest of the nation, and many programs that are at least double funded by comparison!

Ya know the woman started out pretty well, what is your position? WHY? Nothing wrong with such, hopefully it will get a young person thinking about WHY they are voicing any opinion! My hats off to her. Such is exactly what I desire a teacher to do, get your students thinking!

She screwed up when she then ranted off into yer daddy’s gonna be gone for a hundred years! The oh lordy crap was way over the top!

Children do not have any idea in hell why they would be in support of a presidential candidate. To some it was easy, well da boy is black like me! Sans he appears better looking to a little black girl, reverse for the little white girl. The teacher did her students a grave wrong, I won’t call it terrorism, but had I been present in that class room, I would have called her on it. For what it was and intimidation by authroity figure is right at the top! She made the little girl feel pretty small and even scared. Isn’t that exactly the same thing a child molester does to their victims?

This teacher needs to be fired, she can then go to work for another district 40 miles away. The commute will do her good as she will have time to think through some of uneeded degrading comments that flow so easily from her lips.

Oh and WTF is she doing cheer leading for some rally in school in front of students wearing an obahma button? Where is the supposed mantra about church/state separation?

I know that I was in the 5th grade when JFK was shot. I was quite aware of his election, as I had close relatives associated with him at the time. I was crushed by the event of his death. I was not much different than almost anybody in the nation at the time either. But I did not REALY know why I thought he was a neat guy. Or why he might be remotely qualified to lead the country. I also did not know that he would intentionally continue to mislead the country during the middle of a crisis, (seems that those soviet ships turned around the day our warships got into position for containment), or that he was fucking Marylin Monroe!

BTW; today we will watch the UAW disintegrate into nothingness, hopefully tomorrow, it will be the UEA! The UMWA can soon follow as well. Their time of usefulness really has passed and I spoke those words well over thirty years ago. Else they can unionize Wally world, the second largest employer in the united states! And wally world peeons are very happy to inform you of such. (If you are looking for a job, act surprised and impressed)!

TC (0b9ca4) — 11/9/2008 @ 3:11 am

Local military commanders have considerable leverage in host communities. Military children enroll in public schools. Many families live in on-base housing off the local tax rolls. Military families shop base exchanges and commissaries, may be residents of another state, exempt from state and local income taxes. To compensate, Washington provides host communities with Federal Impact Funds. These funds, however, require local military commanders approval, which is not always just a formality.

While stationed at Seymour Johnson AFB in Goldsboro NC, the school board directed that military dependents living on base and in heavily military neighborhoods would be used to desegregate the local high school. The wing commander explained that he would not approve the $88M allocation unless the schools were desegregated by local children as well. Seymour Johnson is a much smaller than the Fort Bragg/Pope AFB complex in Fayetteville. Goldsboro revised their plan.

Obviously, the superintendent is well aware of the potentially huge loss of revenue. He certainly did the right thing.

arch (18fdbe) — 11/9/2008 @ 4:59 am

To follow up arch’s comment at #42, it is also not at all unusual for military families to have to deal with this kind of discrimination; which might in some small part explain the family’s reportedly mild reaction.

While the best solution is to make sure this one doesn’t teach again, the old line from the song, “teach your children well” applies especially to military families. (Because the teachers sure aren’t going to.)

I used to thoroughly enjoy my nieces’ reports on their school days when they had to do things like explain to their band teacher how nuclear power plants work, because he was a left-wing enviro nutbag who was clueless about nuclear energy, and more specifically, the dangers (and sometimes lack thereof).

EW1(SG) (7b8592) — 11/9/2008 @ 5:30 am

This post got him a little riled up so maybe it hit close to home.
Comment by daleyrocks — 11/8/2008 @ 10:33 pm

With tnj’s demonstrated lack of a grasp on reality, to even think that he might be a component in the EduCrat establishment is frightening, but understandable.

There was a study a bit back, comparing SAT scores of EdSchool students to the general University student body.
It seems that, on average, EdSchool students make up the low end of the SAT’s.
Low SAT’s, poor performance on Minimum Competency Tests (drawn to a 10th-grade level), and poor use of English, both written and spoken; The dumbing down of education courtesy of collective bargaining when combined with tenure.
And, we get to pay for it twice, with our taxes the first time, and with a children’s future next.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:34 am

Daleyrocks

If they fire teachers – then they fire teachers – in the private sector more experienced personnel are constantly haveing to justifyu their performance – heaven forbid we demand it with the peoples money

Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/8/2008 @ 10:01 pm

Translation-“The private sector practices obvious age discrimination, so I don’t see why the educational system should work differently.”

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I am the last person who would try to defend an incompetent teacher; I have defended this particular woman in any post.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:39 am

I am the last person who would try to defend an incompetent teacher;

Nope, you settle for defending incompetents as a protected class.

And no, the private sector doesn’t discriminate on the basis of age. It discriminates on the basis of productivity, something you are not at all acquainted with.

EW1(SG) (7b8592) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:50 am

I don’t see a ‘teacher’, I see a female with some bad mental problems. Where did she come from and how did she end up in a classroom, why is she still there? She is openly racist, not simply biased. Fire a teacher, maybe a white teacher, never a racist black teacher. The Teachers union, NAACP and ACLU will come after you. That’s how far fairness and common sense has regressed and it’s slated to get much worse. Why do people still ask what happened to the American education system. This is a slap around the head with a baseball bat, did you feel it? Na, now back to protecting the same old failed liberal non-educators.

Scrapiron (dda662) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:55 am

I am the last person who would try to defend an incompetent teacher;

Nope, you settle for defending incompetents as a protected class.

And no, the private sector doesn’t discriminate on the basis of age. It discriminates on the basis of productivity, something you are not at all acquainted with.

Comment by EW1(SG) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:50 am

First: No need to get sassy.

Second: There may be no de jure age discrimination in the United States, but de facto age discrimination is a daily occurence within every major sector of the private workforce.

Third: When you are attempting to make a point, simply make the point. When you thrown in a haphazard comment like productivity is “something you [I] not at all acquainted with” it destroys the entire construct of your argument. You obviously have no real contact with me outside of the virtual world and therefore have nothing to say on the matter. If you had made that statement in this ‘real world’ that you so eagerly claim to know so much about, it would have nullified your entire argument.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:13 am

There was a study a bit back, comparing SAT scores of EdSchool students to the general University student body.
It seems that, on average, EdSchool students make up the low end of the SAT’s.
Low SAT’s, poor performance on Minimum Competency Tests (drawn to a 10th-grade level), and poor use of English, both written and spoken; The dumbing down of education courtesy of collective bargaining when combined with tenure.
And, we get to pay for it twice, with our taxes the first time, and with a children’s future next.

Comment by Another Drew — 11/9/2008 @ 6:34 am

Are you one of those parents that sends their kids to school with no pencils and having ignored (meaning no bed time reading or teachable moments) them their first 5 years of life and expect the school to make up for it? I can’t help but draw that conclusion with these statements.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:16 am

“Translation-”The private sector practices obvious age discrimination, so I don’t see why the educational system should work differently.””

More pablum from the pinhead.

tnj – I thought you said you were leaving. Liar!

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:25 am

Comment by truthnjustice — 11/9/2008 @ 7:16 am

NO!

But, you’re still a Moron!

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:25 am

“Second: There may be no de jure age discrimination in the United States, but de facto age discrimination is a daily occurence within every major sector of the private workforce.”

tnj – More brilliance! Straight from a text book or the lips of a professor.

Prove your assertion.

I hope you keep going with this argument.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:30 am

How do recognize age discrimination?

-I know it when I see it.

You are aware that employers in this country can be legally pursued for age discrimination?

-Yes, but not all age discrimination rises to the level of a legal offense.

Well, if it’s not a legal offense how do you know it’s going on?

-I can recognize it when I see it.

Well OK then, damn evil corporations.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:36 am

Without the incentive of a solid wage the best and brightest are simply choosing other professions.

Oh, come on, not that again.

Richard Vedder of Ohio University blasted an airplane-hangar-door-sized hole through that talking point:

Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

Teachers, moreover, enjoy longer vacations and work far fewer days per year than most professional workers. Consider data from the National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which computes hourly earnings per worker. The average hourly wage for all workers in the category “professional specialty” was $27.49 in 2000. Meanwhile, elementary-school teachers earned $28.79 per hour; secondary-school teachers earned $29.14 per hour; and special-education teachers earned $29.97 per hour. The average earnings for all three categories of teachers exceeded the average for all professional workers. Indeed, the average hourly wage for teachers even topped that of the highest-paid major category of workers, those whose jobs are described as “executive, administrative, and managerial.” Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters. Note that a majority of these occupations requires as much or even more educational training as does K–12 teaching.

Government data on wages and salaries also exclude fringe benefits. Typically, teachers’ retirement and health insurance benefits are more generous than the average professional’s, particularly those who work in the private sector. Federal data suggest that, on average, teachers receive a package of benefits valued at more than 26 percent of their salaries. By contrast, the average for “all domestic industries” is about 19 percent; for private industries it is even less, below 17 percent.

So forget the idea that teachers are poverty-stricken Mother Teresas bathing the feet of the unwashed masses.

There may be no de jure age discrimination in the United States, but de facto age discrimination is a daily occurence within every major sector of the private workforce.

Well then, you shouldn’t have any problem coming up with linked, real-world examples of this. Right?

Are you one of those parents that sends their kids to school with no pencils and having ignored (meaning no bed time reading or teachable moments) them their first 5 years of life and expect the school to make up for it? I can’t help but draw that conclusion with these statements.

You rip on EW1(SG)for drawing assumptions based on what you post, then commit the same action when you posted the above quote?

Hypocrite.

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:43 am

First: No need to get sassy.

You are a moron whose stupidity per syllable quotient is exceeded solely by your dishonesty per sentence.

Do not attempt to dictate my speech, you scabrous little twit.

EW1(SG) (7b8592) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:54 am

Ladies, ladies… no need to get your panties in a twist. It’s the Lord’s day of rest. Go visit with the family.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:00 am

have no real contact with me outside of the virtual world and therefore have nothing to say on the matter.

On the contrary, I have a great deal to say about you, and how you are perceived here is quite likely a reflection of how you are perceived in the meat world.

You are dishonest and intellectually lazy, qualities that inhibit productivity in just about any profession except “community organizing.”

They are not, however, impediments to being a good garbage collector.

EW1(SG) (7b8592) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:05 am

I can see we have all left our manners at the polls (ha ha-McNasty didn’t quite get it done, did he? 🙂 )

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:09 am

And to suggest that the only those who are in agreement with you are practicing ‘intellectual honesty’ is the equivalent of… well, never mind… that would just fly right over your ironic little head.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:11 am

After the Leftist crowed about Sen. McCain being too old, senile, etc … for the last year, now it tries to act like it cares about age discrimination.

tmj says

Are you one of those parents that sends their kids to school with no pencils and having ignored (meaning no bed time reading or teachable moments) them their first 5 years of life and expect the school to make up for it? I can’t help but draw that conclusion with these statements

Irnoic since your conclusion have no relation to the text that they were purportedly drawn from. What it looks like is you felt like taking a cheap shot at someone that disagrees with you. Shocka.

You are a moron whose stupidity per syllable quotient is exceeded solely by your dishonesty per sentence.

Comment of the Day. Well said, EW1.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:11 am

Are you one of those parents that sends their kids to school with no pencils and having ignored (meaning no bed time reading or teachable moments) them their first 5 years of life and expect the school to make up for it? I can’t help but draw that conclusion with these statements

What was “intellectually honest” about these conclusions, tmj? You would not know intellectually honest if it crawled up your rectum and bit your nose.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:13 am

After the Leftist crowed about Sen. McCain being too old, senile, etc … for the last year, now it tries to act like it cares about age discrimination.

You can’t lump me in with those who may have voted for the same candidate and say we had the same reasons. Defeat has made you guys quite obtuse.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:13 am

“I can see we have all left our manners at the …”

tnj – You’ve been ownwd. Juvenile attempts to walk back your comments don’t help.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:14 am

Ladies, ladies… no need to get your panties in a twist. It’s the Lord’s day of rest. Go visit with the family.

Is that what you say every time you get a verbal beatdown?

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:15 am

I’ve been what?

Daley doesn’t rock at spell check.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:17 am

“Daley doesn’t rock at spell check.”

Ouch, the burn. Fucking twit.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:41 am

tnj, let me ask you a question, and a brief follow up.

Would you approve a decision to suspend Diantha Harris for 2 weeks without pay, and to require she complete an approved course in The Ethics of Classroom Instruction?

If not, why not?

Ropelight (5b609a) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:52 am

As long as those who post on this site continue to use verbal abuse instead of intellectual argument then you will continue to lose respect and elections. Visitors to the site will see a respectful poster who has supplied websites and evidence being bullied with insults instead of evidence (DRJ, that excludes you and I thank you for your respectful debate).

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:53 am

Ladies, ladies… no need to get your panties in a twist.

This is the same Troll who previously has called the readership (and I quote) “a bunch of homoerotic assclowns.”

You told us you were leaving – is there a problem that you’re having that you’d like to disclose to us at this point?

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:53 am

Visitors to the site will see a respectful poster who has supplied websites and evidence being bullied with insults instead of evidence

But as previously shown, you don’t represent that particular “respectful poster” now, do you?

Own your prior words – live with them, and accept all the deserved invective you receive. Anything less indicates a high level of cowardice on your part.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:57 am

Dmac, we’ve talked about this. Stop misquoting me.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 8:59 am

You have not been misquoted – period. Own your words, or else admit that your furious backpedalling is BS.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:01 am

Ropelight.

At least two weeks. If a teacher is berating a child and being verbally abusive over an issue that the child doesn’t fully understand then there should be a punishment. I question whether this woman should be teaching at all, having demonstrated that she clearly does not understand the child psyche.

I would disagree that this particular situation demonstrates that unions are not necessary. I think that there certainly should be some processes through which a teacher may be removed if he/she has been shown to be incompetent, but a complete uprooting of the union would be dangerous.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:05 am

Dmac: I said ‘clown’ not ‘assclown’. Now, apologize for misquoting me (again).

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:06 am

and I thank you for your respectful debate).

Is this coming from the same troll that called everyone here homoerotic racist clowns?

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:16 am

Assclown, clown … The differences, they are staggering.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:18 am

Wow, you guys really aren’t interested in actually discussing anything of substance. I guess I wouldn’t want to rely on facts either if I knew they weren’t going to show any result in my favor.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:19 am

JD – Reading the comments of progtards like tnj and others is like watching that old TV show hosted by Bill Cosby, Kids Say The Darndest Things.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:19 am

Just saw this as I’m reading the comments again:

Without the unions, districts would simply fire teachers as they acquire experience in order to make budgets.

Really?

Got any evidence to back up that assertion?

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:20 am

Wow, you guys really aren’t interested in actually discussing anything of substance

Certainly not with the likes of you. Have you noticed that there are others that we have discussions with, that are kind, civil, and respectful? Have you taken a moment to consider why we respond to you in the manner in which we do?

I guess I wouldn’t want to rely on facts either

There is absolutely no evidence that you have ever attempted this.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:22 am

Wow, you guys really aren’t interested in actually discussing anything of substance. I guess I wouldn’t want to rely on facts either if I knew they weren’t going to show any result in my favor.

How about commenting on #54, since you brought up the subject as part of your arguments? Or are you no longer interested in discussing teachers’ salaries?

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:23 am

“Wow, you guys really aren’t interested in actually discussing anything of substance.”

tnj – My review of the comments shows that you have dodged every attempt as discussing matters of substance once it was proved you didn’t have any and were full of shit as usual.

Feel free to correct me.

The hypocrisy feature of your comments is flashing red right now.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:24 am

Is this coming from the same troll that called everyone here homoerotic racist clowns?

Correct – simply put, it is a liar.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:32 am

Paul:

Those arguments are based on the assumption that teachers have 6 hour work days. I assure you that they do not. When do you think that lesson planning and paper grading happens?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thehomeroom/2008/04/us-teachers-lag.html

Good link about international teachers’ pay.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:32 am

Dmac: your school must not have put much emphasis on pronoun usage.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:33 am

Now, apologize for misquoting me (again).

Either own your own words, or get out of here.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:34 am

I am waiting for my apology. You misquoted me. Own that.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:38 am

Own them, or get out of here.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:49 am

truthnjustice:

Your link compares teachers amongst themselves.

Mine compares teaching with other professions.

Since the crux of your underpaid teachers argument is that the best and brightest are choosing other professions, how does your link refute mine?

When do you think that lesson planning and paper grading happens?

You seem to think teachers are the only salaried employees that work unpaid overtime. I assure you that is not the case. In fact, anyone–in any profession–that negotiates a salary without factoring in at least ten hours of overtime a week is foolish.

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:49 am

Ah. Good point, Paul. Let me look up some other information.

I will tell you that I have worked in both the engineering sector and the public education sector and the amount of work required of each was not even comparable. I am much busier as a teacher than I ever was even at the busiest times as an engineer. I realize that this is anecdotal evidence, but it (obviously) resonates with me.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:52 am

Here is a good comparison about how teaching pay has decreased in comparison the the GDP over the years.

http://www.nea.org/edstats/losingground.html

Here is a good study about how teacher’s pay lags behind other professionals.

http://www.weac.org/News/2004-05/august04/teacherpay.htm

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:54 am

tnj – If life was so much easier in engineering, why didn’t you stay there? Why do you want to be a “victim.” Your choices aren’t our problem. Own them.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:02 am

truthnjustice:

So I can better understand your anecdotal evidence, would you provide a brief summary of your paid duties in the engineering sector and your teaching duties (subject, academic level)?

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:03 am

Daley-doesn’t: My choices are not what we are debating, and I don’t consider myself a victim. Stay on topic.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:04 am

Paul:

In the engineering sector I was working for an industrial meat/food slicing company as a design engineer. I would implement upgrades and individual specifications required of our machines. It was a specialized market so the machines were more of a job shop than an assembly line. I also worked heavily in the CAD conversion from one system to the other.

I am certified to teach physical sciences from grades 7-12. Currently I am teaching freshman physical science and physics (which is mostly seniors).

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:07 am

truthnjustice:

The NEA claim that teachers are underpaid, yet, yearly increases in taxpayer funding pours into the nation’s school system.

Where is all this money going?

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:15 am

“My choices are not what we are debating, and I don’t consider myself a victim.”

tnj – You certainly were describing yourself as a victim. You need to consider your word choices and phrasing more carefully. Engineers typically have trouble expressing themselves in plain english. You are no exception.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:17 am

Since teachers only work part-time, it’s not surprising they get paid less that “other professionals.”

Heck, I’m surprised they have the chutzpah to even bring up the topic, considering the near universal failure of their “profession” to produce satisfactory results.

Ropelight (5b609a) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:18 am

truthnjustice: thanks.

Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (f4c545) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:20 am

Daley doesn’t: You are the reason I made the clown statement before. You are not arguing anything of substance, you’re simply making insulting comments. Is that all you have? Your standard response to these insinuations is that you don’t find me a worthy debate opponent, but if that were true then why bother to indulge me with insults?

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:21 am

I am much busier as a teacher

Good Allah, please help those poor misfortunate children.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:25 am

tnj – Is that a circular argument you are making on your own behalf?

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:26 am

Ha. I assure you, Junior Detective, that I keep my politics outside of the classroom. I did not tell the students who I was voting for. I would gladly have you observe my class if you doubt my classroom management/teaching skills, however.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:29 am

I made the clown statement before

I though it did not call everyone racist homoerotic clowns. Now it admits it.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:32 am

I was accused of using the term ‘assclowns’, which is what I took issue with. Haven’t you been paying attention to these posts?

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 10:34 am

Yes, I have. I fail to see the substantive difference between calling someone a racist homoerotic clown and a racist homoerotic assclown.

JD (831256) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:07 am

Maybe you don’t, but that doesn’t give you a blank check to misquote someone then deny you’ve made an error.

But again, we are not discussing the actual subject at hand.

truthnjustice (6d3080) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:11 am

tnj – Why not produce your original comment to prove your injury. O’m sure everybody would enjoy reading it in its entirety again as it was so chock full of substance.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:30 am

“Daley doesn’t: You are the reason I made the clown statement before.”

tnj – You’ll have to refresh my memory Biff. I don’t recall participating in the thread at the time you revealed your true colors.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:34 am

RE: Comment by truthnjustice — 11/9/2008 @ 6:39 am

I am the last person who would try to defend an incompetent teacher; I have defended this particular woman in any post.

Huh?

jeff (510f8a) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:41 am

Comment by truthnjustice — 11/9/2008 @ 8:53 am

A lecture on ethics from a paragon of morality.

You’re still a moron, and twit.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:44 am

It’s no wonder that dipwad kids usually vote Dem, and that most people think that Roosevelt was a hero, and that Dick Nixon was a villain given the sort of political indoctrination everyone is subjected to, by the schools, by the media, by the entertainment industry before they’re old enough to critically evaluate the data their brains are being filled with.

Most people in America are totally brainwashed, and that video is a good example of how they get that way. I see the same sort of nonsense in the elementary school my wife teaches at, and it goes on all the time.

Politics ought to be kept out of the classroom. Those kids are way too young to understand the issues involved, and the teacher isn’t trying to teach, she’s trying to indoctrinate, and she ought to be fired for doing it.

Dave Surls (ccc5c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:48 am

“I am certified…”

And yet they still allow you to walk free, and influence young minds?

I don’t know who’s worse, you or your enablers.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 11:52 am

Good thing for the teacher that she didn’t blaspheme the name of the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) or the name of Allah. She only took Jesus’ name in vain.

No biggie.

BitterClinger (9ca635) — 11/9/2008 @ 12:00 pm

Another Drew: Thanks for (not) providing anything of substance to the debate, yet again.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 3:38 pm

I am literally shocked (read: completely and totally disappointed) that of 5-8 posters who felt they were qualified to reply to my posts on this topic, that only 1 or 2 (thanks Peter and DRJ) were able to engage in an interesting, factual, and respectful discourse. Drew, J-unior D-etective, DMac and EW1G (whatever) had nothing but insults. Top notch, gents.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 3:42 pm

I got the impression at first that she was a Republican, what with ‘John McCain. Jesus” , and “John McCain , Lord!

I hate to say it but don’t you sometimes, think that maybe, just maybe, those Southrons in the 1950s had a bit of a point on the education thing, if you know what I am saying.

stari_momak (ad3f6d) — 11/9/2008 @ 3:58 pm

if you know what I am saying.

Yeah, you’re a racist. That doesn’t address the issue, and don’t you have a sheet to clean after the crossburning.

Mossberg500 (9fd170) — 11/9/2008 @ 4:07 pm

Letter from Young Lady in Answer to Invitation from Old Schoolmistress

MY DEAR MISS PRICE,
How awfully sweet of you to ask me to stay with you for a few days but how can you think I may have forgotten you for of course I think of you so very often and of the three ears I spent at your school because it is such a joy not to be there any longer and if one is at all down it bucks one up derectly to remember that thats all over atanyrate and that one has enough food to nurrish one and not that awful monottany of life and not the petty fogging daily tirrany you went in for and I can imagine no greater thrill and luxury in a way than to than to come and see the whole dismal grind still going on without me being in it but this would be rather beastly of me wouldn’t it so please dear Miss Price don’t expect me and do excuse mistakes of English composition and Spelling and etcetera in your affectionate old pupil,
Emily Therese Lynn-Royston

ps, I often rite to people telling them where I was edducated and highly reckomending you.

nk (95bfab) — 11/9/2008 @ 4:14 pm

“I hate to say it but don’t you sometimes, think that maybe, just maybe, those Southrons in the 1950s had a bit of a point on the education thing, if you know what I am saying.”

You mean that “Southron” education thing where they were saying that because blacks were inferior that it was o.k. to keep black kids in separate but (un)equal schools even though black people had to pay the same taxes as everyone else?

No, I don’t think they had a point. Except for the one on the ends of their Klan hats, which were ideally shaped to accomodate their Democrat heads.

Dave Surls (618112) — 11/9/2008 @ 4:16 pm

I knew that would bring out the self-righteous. But I would say look at the racial dynamics in that class; we’ve sacrificed more than one white kid for supposed equality. We can’t go back, but we do have to look at reality.

stari_momak (ad3f6d) — 11/9/2008 @ 4:39 pm

had nothing but insults. Top notch, gents.

So sayeth the molder of young minds, who is always respectful and never says a discouraging word to anyone here – just ask him. This is what’s called a “teachable moment,” but the molder seems to have experienced a sudden bout of Alzheimer’s, so bringing up unfortunate postings from his/her/plankton’s past is bound to cause more confusion and/or mendacity emanating from it’s nether regions.

Dmac (e30284) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:17 pm

Dmac, your post to point ratio is pretty low at this point.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:21 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 3:42 pm

If you posted serious commentary, instead of your usual drivel, you would be taken seriously, and responded to in kind.
You have created your own little demented world to live in, and we get to throw stones at it.
We think of it as PT time.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:25 pm

truthnjustice, just never quite got “irony” in your vocabulary drills, did you?

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:26 pm

Dmac, I see this kind of cognitive dissonance all the time. The sufferer will shout and carry on about some injustice, but it is perfectly okay if that injustice is carried out toward someone that they don’t like.

You know—it is the end of all freedom to wiretap potential terrorists. But it is perfectly okay to rifle through Joe the Plumber’s files. No problem!

It’s some variant of Stockholm Syndrome, I think.

Anyway, I suspect it originates from a narcissistic inability to view the world through eyes and preconceptions different from their own. And perhaps something I can only call “xenophilia,” the unreasoning love/crush/romance of things that are different.

So, in the old days, it was okay to rail against that Awful Warmongering Ronald Reagan, but then turn around and say that Andropov wasn’t a monster, because he loved jazz and bourbon. And Daniel Ortega was a man of the people (and wore cool sunglasses). It used to really upset me. I could understand disliking and distrusting all politicians. I could understand being all “fluffy bunny” about all politicians. But the differential seemed intellectually dishonest (and frankly, to have elements of self-loathing) to me.

So we now have a situation where (and I literally have colleagues who have said this in my presence) a person can state that they suspect that GW Bush was involved with bringing down the Twin Towers during 9-11….and yet also say that people who think BO is a “secret Muslim” are crazy.

Both ideas are crazy. But because they hate the known quantity (GW Bush) and love the new quantity (BO), the process is asymmetrical.

Sigh.

Eric Blair (a723e0) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:27 pm

I think you guys pretend that you’re interested in these issues, but if anybody comes around with any unique and interesting counterpoint you insult them. Afterwards, you rationalize it by claiming that I am uneducated or (insert ridiculous reasoning here).

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:31 pm

truthnjustice, did you leave your “unique and interesting counterpoint” at the door? Because we’ve not seen hide nor hair of it.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:33 pm

You got here like 4 hours too late, spqr.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:34 pm

My dog used to have a “unique and interesting counterpoint”, she would refuse to bring the ball back.
She would always chase it, she just wouldn’t bring it back.
Sort of like some of the one-sided conversations we have around here.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:39 pm

truthnjustice, did you leave your “unique and interesting counterpoint” at the door? Because we’ve not seen hide nor hair of it.

Comment by SPQR — 11/9/2008 @ 6:33 pm

Every time you post something like this you further prove the points I have been making, so I beg you not to stop.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:39 pm

Exactly, Drew! Exactly. I had posted a few links and some information in the context of the discussion earlier and you, in turn, posted:

A lecture on ethics from a paragon of morality.

You’re still a moron, and twit.

Comment by Another Drew — 11/9/2008 @ 11:44 am

Not exactly continuing the conversation in a constructive matter, is it?

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:44 pm

(insert ridiculous reasoning here).

It’s your insertion of “ridiculous reasoning” that earns you the responses you receive.

121:

We can’t go back,

Nor do we want to, asshat.

Too bad your first comment here wasn’t your last.

EW1(SG) (7b8592) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:44 pm

We have another intriguing comment from the peanut gallery. Welcome, ‘ewwwww-SG’!

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:47 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 6:44 pm

My response was proportional to the seriousness of your comment.
If you ever had an original thought, it probably got lost in the maze.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:49 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 6:44 pm

My response was proportional to the seriousness of your comment.
If you ever had an original thought, it probably got lost in the maze.

Comment by Another Drew — 11/9/2008 @ 6:49 pm

Again.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:52 pm

Actually, truthnjustice, you are not proving any point at all. You are only demonstrating your own hypocrisy. No one else’s.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:55 pm

And you are determining this after showing up on this thread a few minutes ago? Read the thread.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 6:57 pm

Comment by SPQR — 11/9/2008 @ 6:55 pm

You have obviously failed to discern the nuance and implied brilliance of this trolls discourse.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:02 pm

I suppose that you think insulting me while not actually contributing to the conversation gives you style points. The fact is that you have become quite tiresome, Drew.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:03 pm

truthnjustice, you want to shed your troll reputation because of a handful of comments? Does not work that way.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:05 pm

What is your definition of a troll? Someone who doesn’t agree with you on 100% of the issues?

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:08 pm

tnj is just bitter because the “substance” he thought he was bringing to the table was debunked like a snowball in a blast furnace. He was totally owned. BOHICA.

Now he’s claiming no one is responding to his substantive points which were already destroyed. JUST NOT BUYING IT. He’s a good little weaselly dirty socialist union stooge, though. He’s got the talking points down. Substance, no, hypocrisy, oozes from every pore.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:10 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 7:08 pm

Troll: someone who mimics the worst characteristics of a fly; ie, “All he does is eat, shit, and bother people.”

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:10 pm

“contributing to the conversation”

tnj – Please explain for the edification of the rubes on this blog how exactly you are contributing to the conversation. Feel free to review your last 20 or so comments.

daleyrocks (5d22c0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:14 pm

Yep, daleyrocks, amazingly that’s what I concluded when I first read the thread long before truthnjustice suggested it.

But then, after my own experience with the teaching profession, I was not surprised.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:17 pm

The discourse over the last 30 comments has been stalled out by insults, Daley-doesn’t. I have been continually pointing out that your friends have been turning the discourse into a slur-fest and they have, in kind, proved that point over and over again. So yeah, that is the summation of the last 30 comments. The actual conversation of this thread seems to have been finished when Peter and DRJ left, the rest of these guys deal mostly in tomfoolery.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:21 pm

You’ve been asked to prove your point by restating the points you believe were germane to this discussion.
If you cannot, then in all honesty, you should retire.

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:25 pm

Sounds like a good idea. I am going to take a nap.

Why on Earth is it my responsibility to go through your idiotic comments to find the points I was making earlier. I posted a few sites and stated my case once. Your request is the equivalent of a juror falling asleep during the trial, then waking up and asking to see the presentation again. I am not interested in rehashing.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:29 pm

I think most hilarious assertion was the false one of “low pay” discouraging qualified people from becoming teachers. Just how much nonsense this is was shown to me some years ago when I was working with the board of a local charter school and was interviewing applicants for teaching positions.

We had an extraordinary number of people applying for positions with the charter school who could not get into the regular school district because of faux “qualifications” requirements that were barriers to entry rather than actually substantive. Or who were not interested in working with the stifling bureacracy of the school district and wanted into the charter school. We were actually paying less than the school district in effect, and still were flooded with applicants.

Completely unqualified ones … like the PhD in astrophysics who wanted to teach math and science for us …

The state’s dept of education works with the unions to create barriers to the entry of good teachers – with great success.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:29 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 7:29 pm

Once again, the troll demonstrates its’ dishonesty by refusing to restate its’ arguments – this an indication that these are not seriously held beliefs, but just talking points that they cannot keep straight without having the crib-sheet in front of them.
Someone who is arguing from deeply held beliefs will always be prepared to discourse on those ideals.

“It is always easier to tell the truth, you don’t have to try and remember what you previously said.”

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:35 pm

I’d be happy to put you in touch with a friend of mine who teaches at a charter school and is out of there as soon as she gets her teaching license. She hates it: both the pay and the working conditions. One anecdotal story shot down by another.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:36 pm

Comment by liesntyranny — 11/9/2008 @ 7:29 pm

Once again, the troll demonstrates its’ dishonesty by refusing to restate its’ arguments – this an indication that these are not seriously held beliefs, but just talking points that they cannot keep straight without having the crib-sheet in front of them.
Someone who is arguing from deeply held beliefs will always be prepared to discourse on those ideals.

“It is always easier to tell the truth, you don’t have to try and remember what you previously said.”

Comment by Another Drew — 11/9/2008 @ 7:35 pm

The old standby… calling me a liar. The posts are up at the top of the board for all to see… find them lazy @ss.

truthnjustice (d99227) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:37 pm

Someone has a very thin skin!

Another Drew (c881b0) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:39 pm

truthnjustice, the local Teachers In Residence program had many thousands of qualified applicants for a hundred positions. The reality is that your claim that low pay is keeping qualified people out of the teaching profession is just the kind of twaddle we constantly get from you.

SPQR (26be8b) — 11/9/2008 @ 7:40 pm

IF she did that to my kid, I’d slap her sideways. I’d love to know if anything happens to this worthless waste of skin.

Kate (734c4e) — 11/9/2008 @ 9:18 pm

That teacher is a piece of shit masquerading as a human being.

Icy Truth (aedb2f) — 11/10/2008 @ 12:24 pm

11/8/2008

Teacher Who Browbeat Student with Dad in Iraq to Be Disciplined

157 Responses to “Teacher Who Browbeat Student with Dad in Iraq to Be Disciplined”

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