Patterico's Pontifications

10/26/2008

Houston Pawn Shop Owner Kills Robber

Filed under: Crime,Law — DRJ @ 7:33 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

The preliminary report suggests the owner acted in self-defense:

“Clifford Jerome Thomas, 36, wore sunglasses and a cap about 6 p.m. when he pulled a gun on the owner of Gulf Coast Pawn and Jewelry, 9440 Louetta, Harris County Sheriff’s deputies said.

Thomas threatened to kill the owner, who was working behind the counter. He took out a pair of handcuffs, ordering the man to his knees, deputies said.

When the owner refused to comply, Thomas fired at him, but missed. The owner was able to retrieve his own pistol and shot Thomas several times, deputies said.

Thomas, who was wearing a bullet-proof vest, later died at Methodist Willowbrook Hospital. The owner was not injured, deputies said.”

The article says the shooting will be sent to a grand jury. It should be an open-and-shut case if this report is accurate.

Still, it’s surprising that the robber may have been wearing a bullet-proof vest. The vest suggests he expected violence but I guess he gets points for being prepared (for all the good it did). Aren’t bullet-proof vests pretty expensive?

— DRJ

60 Responses to “Houston Pawn Shop Owner Kills Robber”

  1. Thomas, who was wearing a bullet-proof vest
    .
    Must have been a head shot. The GJ treatment is standard for use of deadly force. No bill will emerge, the shop owner was quite reasonably justified in use of deadly force.
    .
    One less vote for Obama.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  2. A bullet-proof vest, a gun, and handcuffs — This guy seems to have had a plan, equipment and was prepared to use them. How many robbers are this prepared?

    DRJ (cb68f2)

  3. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Unless, of course, the crook was a misguided minority who was abused in his youth. Still, no more recidivism and no more revolving door justice for this candidate for a Darwin award. I’m sure someone will assert he was good man with emotional/drug problems. Kudos to the shop owner. Imagine if private gun ownership was made illegal? We have all those gun laws in places like O’s Chitown, which also is the murder capital of this country now.

    Perhaps the intended victim went for a head shot?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  4. Looks like a kevlar vest can be had on ebay for about $350. Flak jackets are cheaper, but they don’t stop bullets.

    kaf (5077ae)

  5. Aren’t bullet-proof vests pretty expensive?

    Not really. Assuming he bought it retail, and it wasn’t stolen or used, you can get into some body armor for ~$200ish. Surplus Police Vests starting at $190.
    I’ve heard anecdotal reports of local thugs wearing armor. (From people who have to work downtown, they’re usually going to the 10mm minimum as their carry weapon).

    Unix-Jedi (486100)

  6. My naivete’ on firearms has been documented, but my son the Philly cop states their vests will stop a standard 9 mm or similar, but not higher powered (nor special ammo). Of course there are heavier vests.

    He may have been prepared, but wasn’t skilled, which I guess is good for the shop owner.

    I imagine the shop had a security system, having the incident on tape will support, or contradict, the story.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  7. How many robbers are this prepared?
    .
    It depends on their target. A hot robbery of a pawn-shop is high risk, tantamount to robbing a gun shop, an armored car, or a police station.
    .
    OTOH, until we arm them, little old ladies don’t pose the same sort of risk, so common street thugs probably stick to the uniform of low pants (I’m still LOL at the song parody) and a hooded sweatshirt.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  8. 8. But we do have to search little old ladies and not offend those arabs frequent flyers with profiling in the interest of political correctness.
    This pawn shop story gave me a Pulp Fiction flashback. It was rather satisfying that Jed survived a shotgun blast to his cojones, only to face a pair of pliers and a blow torch later.
    If I were the shop owner, I’d still worry about the mutant’s friends or associates.
    No details on perp’s record?

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  9. If I were the shop owner, I’d still worry about the mutant’s friends or associates.
    .
    Yeah, not shit. At least he’s alive to worry about it. Time to jack up the rates – spread the wealth as it were.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  10. MD, your son should be wearing armor of higher protection than that.

    This wikipedia entry discusses the DOJ threat level armor is rated at. I’d want my son in IIIA armor.

    Note that there are a lot of old military surplus flak jackets from the Vietnam era in surplus stores that were originally designed to only stop artillery fragments, not real bullets.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  11. SPQR-
    Thanks for the concern and the information. I know he has the standard issue, but I’ll raise the topic again with him.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  12. Bullet proof vest, $150; handcuffs, $200; shooting lessons, priceless.

    craig mclaughlin (f97886)

  13. Two points…
    A vest should be able to stop a .45acp;
    You should train doing a double tap body shot + one to the head for insurance.
    If he’s wearing a vest, the body shots will put a hitch in his step, the head shot will end the threat.

    Another Drew (fd3d4b)

  14. and another thing…
    h/t to Jeff Cooper
    Never carry any handgun that doesn’t have a “4” in the caliber designation (ie, .40SW – .45, inclusive).

    Another Drew (fd3d4b)

  15. The Pawn Shop owner may have used the new FN Five-seveN. Against which the vest is moot.

    serr8d (9e9777)

  16. IIRC, body armor is better able to stop hollow point bullets than jacketed bullets. Most people use hollow points, but it might be that the Pawn Shop owner was using jacketed bullets in a pretty high caliber, and his rounds went through.

    But if I had to bet, what I’d bet is that the perp thought he was better protected than he really was, and his “body armor” was crap.

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  17. He must have been empowered by the William Shatner/Denny Crain video. I know I was.

    Marty Farty (34813e)

  18. Another Drew-
    as a civie… if I HAVE to shoot, I’m going to use all the shells I have on what targets I have, and if they are still moving after that, I’ll probably start beating them to death with the gun….

    Marty “Knee. Left foot. Right foot.” By all that’s holy, I WISH I could be that calm when a life is on the line….”

    Foxfier (6efa8a)

  19. A Chicago cop was killed by two .22LR rounds at close range that went through his Type II vest. As the French knights found at Agincourt, armor is not “proof” — only “resistant”.

    nk (5dcbab)

  20. Many vests will not stop the little and weak .22 Long Rifle rimfire round — being so small it simply slips between the fabric weave. That round doesn’t have much stopping power. Although of course a “lucky” hit will kill someone, he’s likely to at least be able to shoot back for longer than someone hit with a more powerful centerfire round.

    All vests also have a limit on how powerful a round they will stop, with few vests able to stop a .357 Magnum (a revolver round, basically a .38 special bullet with more gunpowder behind it, and thus a higher velocity and at least double the kinetic energy) or the highest-powered practical semi-automatic rounds (e.g., 10mm, .357 SIG). These all come in heavy and fairly large guns, which are relatively hard to conceal and uncomfortable to carry, especially for criminals, who usually do not use a holster so they can ditch a gun leaving nothing behind.

    DWPittelli (7c499f)

  21. Actually, I favor having a .475Linebaugh with armor piercing rounds. No more perp or terrorist with a body shot.

    PCD (7fe637)

  22. I cannot believe how racist you people are.

    JD (5b4781)

  23. Aren’t bullet-proof vests pretty expensive?

    Not if you are in the habit of taking what you want.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  24. I favor the .22LR for defensive carry but in a decent pistol — a high quality revolver or mid-size automatic with a 4-inch barrel, not the little automatics or derringers. There is no recoil, little noise and ammo is cheap so you can practice a lot with either hand, and since defensive ranges are mostly under 25 feet you will hit whatever you are looking at even point-shooting.

    nk (5dcbab)

  25. Not terribly expensive; under $200 used, and perhaps less in a pawnshop. That said, reliable reports of criminals wearing them are very rare, but not totally unknown.

    Joel Rosenberg (5ec843)

  26. Surplus Police Vests starting at $190.

    Only used once! 🙂

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  27. Thanks for the concern and the information. I know he has the standard issue, but I’ll raise the topic again with him.

    There’s an outfitters (Blackhawk, I think it is…), and i believe the carry body armor of high quality. Never worn and/or been shot with one on, so I can’t personally vouch…

    Pricey, yes… But you get what you pay for, I suspect…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  28. JD, are you assuming that the perp is not white?

    LarryD (feb78b)

  29. Is it illegal in Texas to rob a place while wearing body armor? I know several jurisdictions which in fact have such a statute. Obviously, it has little impact on anything at all, because its deterrent effect consists entirely of assuming that a robber will be willing to risk the penalty for committing armed robbery, but not willing to risk the enhanced penalty for wearing body armor while doing so. Criminals just don’t think that much… and I suspect the Texas penalty for robbery (the penalty imposed by statutory law, not the penalty meted out by common sense, as here) is harsh enough that “enhancing” it wouldn’t add much.

    If there’s no such law on the books, watch for politicians to “do something” by passing yet another useless law.

    PatHMV (653160)

  30. Where is EricPWJohnson to talk about Texas Tolerance?

    daleyrocks (60704b)

  31. Comment by Foxfier — 10/26/2008 @ 10:55 pm

    Training…Training…Training…Training!

    If you regularly carry, you should join a shooting group that trains in tactical situations at least once a month.
    In between, you should go to the range just to re-inforce muscle-memory/hand-eye coordination.
    It is the training that allows the “calmness” to overcome the panic.
    If you haven’t already decided that you can take a life to defend a life, you shouldn’t be carrying a gun, or have one around.

    Another Drew (cdf426)

  32. “But he was such a good kid!”

    CLeanGuy (61ed53)

  33. Excellent point.

    Dmac (e30284)

  34. I was referring to AD’s advice, btw. I’m not allowed to own a handgun here, but no worries – just the highest murder rate among all US cities over the past year.

    Dmac (e30284)

  35. Racists

    JD (5b4781)

  36. Is it illegal in Texas to rob a place while wearing body armor? I know several jurisdictions which in fact have such a statute….If there’s no such law on the books, watch for politicians to “do something” by passing yet another useless law. Comment by PatHMV — 10/27/2008 @ 7:53 am

    I would understand that as an attempt to make a statement and to increase the penalty for “professional” robbers, acknowledging they don’t want to infringe on a store owner who wants to wear one himself.

    The law may not be that useful, I don’t know, but it would keep them from doing worse things, at least for a little while.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs — 10/27/2008 @ 6:59 am Thank you.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  37. Bullet-proof vest, no matter how expensive, won’t stop a shot to the head, neck, armpit, or femoral artery.

    furious (56af6d)

  38. Scott Jacobs:
    Only used once!
    As I recall, Oliver North used to hawk the Body Armor using Spectra (super-high-density polyethylene, rather than the aramid (nylon) Kevlar which was more common.)
    They had a guarantee on it, and at the time I remember laughing, that it was probably safe, that anybody who would want to collect was probably not going to be able to. “Money back if it doesn’t work” or something to that effect.

    Unix-Jedi (651a1b)

  39. Body armor, like crash helmets, should be considered an expendable item.
    All motorsport sanctioning bodies require helmets that are involved in crashes to be surrendered for analysis, and they are not returned.
    Some even take a driver’s helmet if he does something stupid such as throwing it with force against something in a fit of anger. At around a Grand for a bare helmet, that gets to be a fairly expensive outpouring of emotion.
    As posted earlier, good armor is expensive; how much is your life worth?

    Another Drew (cdf426)

  40. Must have been a head shot.

    Not necessarily. The perp died later, at the hospital.

    Either the bullets penetrated the vest (it might not have been a very good quality vest) . . .

    Or the bullets hit somewhere unprotected, like the legs, the side of the torso/the armpits, etc.

    Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c)

  41. 15. The Pawn Shop owner may have used the new FN Five-seveN. Against which the vest is moot.

    Not entirely true. Such ammunition for the 5.7 is controlled the same as any other AP handgun ammunition. Standard commercial 5.7 ammunition cannot penetrate a vest.

    CM Smith (f287dc)

  42. Coincidentally, there is a discussion going on now over at Ace of Spades HQ about what guns to buy:

    http://minx.cc/?post=27663

    someone said good info at http://corneredcat.com/

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  43. oops, missed the mark of the beast …THREE 6’s.

    http://minx.cc/?post=276663

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  44. Bullet-proof vests are exactly as expensive as high-powered weapons . . . on the street (if — one would assume — harder to come by).

    Icy Truth (1468e4)

  45. Armed robbers wearing ballistic vests are best served at room temperature……

    Gabby (1566d8)

  46. Texas Penal Code Section 46.041 prohibits felons from possessing “metal or body armor” that is “designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of protecting a person against gunfire.” I didn’t see anything that prohibits ownership by persons who aren’t felons.

    DRJ (cb68f2)

  47. #20

    My former department did many tests on body armor. In fact they also did test on body armor that was retired after 5+ years of daily wear. Our standard issue was level 2 which was rated to stop up to .357 magnum. They shot the vests with everything from 22LR to 44 magnum & 12 ga 00 magnum buckshot.
    The vests stopped every handgun round tested on it including rounds that exceeded its rating. There were Point Blank, Second Chance & American Body Armor kevlar vests.

    Stan (7cfd24)

  48. Comment by Another Drew — 10/27/2008 @ 8:38 am

    Oh, I know I can kill to defend.

    I’m just not going to be calm. ;^p

    Foxfier (c0b5bc)

  49. #48 Foxfier:

    I’m just not going to be calm. ;^p

    Like AD said: training, training, training.

    And even if its only time at the range, it makes an incredible difference when you are comfortable with your tools.

    Besides which, my impression of you is that you would be calm during crisis, even if not so much afterward. 😉

    EW1(SG) (7fc3aa)

  50. Bullet proof vest, handcuffs and a plan?

    Good grief .. who did that shop owner piss off?

    Whoever it was is definitely more pissed off now …

    i like america (d2f951)

  51. “i like america” – nope, sounds like a permanent dirt nap for whoever he pissed off.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  52. Comment by EW1(SG) — 10/27/2008 @ 4:31 pm

    *blush* That’s so sweet!

    SPQR- if the dead guy isn’t the one who was pissed, the one who was will probably want to rethink his ire….
    Of course, this dead guy could’ve been a random pervert, too.

    Foxfier (c0b5bc)

  53. Foxfier, yep. Oh, and to add to EW1(SG)’s comments: focus on the front sight.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  54. you people just need to shut up about everything!! you have no idea!! and i am ashamed that you are all making such comments!! this was a persons life you are all talking about, it doesn’t matter what happened just let him go in peace and leave it alone!!

    Nat (237628)

  55. you people just need to shut up about everything!! you have no idea!! and i am ashamed that you are all making such comments!! this was a persons life you are all talking about, it doesn’t matter what happened just let him go in peace and leave it alone!!

    Spoken like a true Baracky supporter.

    Racists.

    JD (5b4781)

  56. okay…whatever to all you people…you weren’t friends with this man…and i would really appreciate it if you all would let this go…this has nothing to do with politics…just let it go!!

    Nat (237628)

  57. SPQR, my thinking was the now-deceased asshole was working for someone else.

    Nat, take your pills.

    i like america (d2f951)

  58. The suspect was a son in law of a very close friend of mine. He is white and came from a very good family and had an exceptional wife. He was down on his luck and leading a seemingly double life to hide it. It is evident he was desperate. I feel great anguish for those he left behind. If I were in the shoes of the shop owner I would have not hesitated to do the same.

    B.ALLEN (72d871)

  59. OK ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
    AFTER THE PAWNSHOP OWNER SHOT THE TURD, HE WAS STILL MOVING TRYING TO AIM HIS GUN, THAT’S WHEN THE PAWNSHOP OWNER, PUT THREE TO THE TURD’S HEAD!!
    -END OF STORY!!! CRIME JUST DON’T PAY!!!

    jon (7b94ff)

  60. What’s your point, jon?

    SPQR (26be8b)


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