Fact-Checking Biden’s Debate Statements
[Guest post by DRJ]
McCain-Palin claims Joe Biden told 14 lies in last night’s debate:
“1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.
2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.
[NOTE to the McCain campaign quick response team: Ahmadinejad.]
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.
4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of its passage.
5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.
6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.
7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false
8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.
9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.
10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.
11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.
12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”
14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.”
I can’t vouch for these, although Patterico verified #2, the Instapundit looked at #5, and Beldar addressed #8. Prof. Reynolds also added links (here and here) to two more:
15. HEZBOLLAH OUT OF LEBANON. Biden claimed that “we kicked — along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon.” Michael Totten charitably declares that Biden “literally has no idea what he’s talking about.”
16. KATIE’S RESTAURANT. Biden sought to connect himself with everyday Americans: “Look, all you have to do is go down Union Street with me in Wilmington or go to Katie’s Restaurant or walk into Home Depot with me where I spend a lot of time …” But Ed Morrissey at Hot Air linked Curtis Silwa of WABC who found that Katie’s Restaurant was closed during the Clinton Administration, and he couldn’t find anyone at a Wilmington Home Depot who remembers seeing Biden.
Finally, the Washington Post’s blog PostPartisan adds these Constitutional issues that are important since Biden is a past Chairman of and self-described “vocal Member of the Judiciary Committee” who prides himself on “upholding the integrity of the bench:”
17. BIDEN’s CONSTITUTIONAL CLAIMS. Biden garbled his analysis of the Constitutional issues in gay marriage and in the legislative/executive overlap in the status of the Vice President.
Specifically, Biden claimed that the Constitution guarantees gay couples’ “property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do” while maintaining that there is no Constitutional right to gay marriage.
On the Vice Presidency, Biden claimed that VP Cheney “doesn’t realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States. That’s the executive. He works in the executive branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.” Except, oops, Article I sets out the role of Congress and the vice president’s position as president of the Senate. Article II does all that executive branch stuff.”
Here’s the debate transcript. Any links proving or disproving these claims are welcome.
UPDATE 1: Ohio debate watchers say Biden had a better command of the facts. Heh.
UPDATE 2: B D Shepherd at Counting Sheep already has a list with links. He’s up to number 22. Good work, B D.
— DRJ
As I’ve seen people state at other places (Ace, Hot Air, others), it’d be easy to think that Biden had more facts at his disposal…except for the fact that he created most of them out of thin air.
Joe Biden: the modern-day Cliff Clavin. (again, stolen from Ace)
Chris (6733a5) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:37 pmthe Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
My impression was the tax increases would be for couples filing joint returns. Wrong ?
Mike K (155601) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:39 pmYou must review the actual tape of Katie’s Restaurant. CNN forged the transcript to make it appear that Biden said OR. But the actual word coming out of his mouth is AND. This is a major gaffe and a major willful mis-statement by CNN, doctoring the transcript.
eaglewingz08 (98291e) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:47 pmI’m sure that Hezbollah would be very surprised to find out it’s been kicked out of Lebanon. And so would the Lebanese, Syria, Israel, and Iran.
However, despite screwing up the details of Article I v Article II, Biden was right and Palin was wrong on this issue. Perhaps you noticed that Palin used the word flexibility? To be brief about it, Palin was using the standard liberal idea of an organic constitution, which allowed Biden, rather bizarrely, to play Scalia to her Kennedy. But not too much of course. He’s quite willing to be flexible on other parts of the Constitution, after all–like gay rights. However, in defining the VP role, it was Biden who got the Constitution correct and Palin who, in effect, said the Constitution means what we say it means.
kishnevi (b40a74) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:50 pmMaybe we should also fact check the Obamabots, like Chris Matthews.
MATTHEWS: When she talks about recognizing Jerusalem as the exclusive capital of Israel, does she know that-and she put it together in a couple sentences. And I really question if she knows what she’s talking about. She talked very persuasively about Israel having put together a very good treaty with Jordan, the kingdom of Jordan … and, of course, the Egyptian country as well.
BUCHANAN: Egypt.
MATTHEWS: … Egypt, the republic-United Arab Republic, and she put it all together. And then she said, move the capital. Doesn’t she know that, if you move the capital, by the United States’ standards, and move our embassy down there, that that breaks apart both those treaties? Does she really know what she’s talking about, Pat?
The UAR was a creature of Nasser. Matthews was about four years old when it ended. Just like Biden’s favorite restaurant.
Mike K (155601) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:51 pmAnd here’s what Sarah Palin gets from the media when she released her tax returns several days earlier than promised. Note the closing sentence:
Old Coot (2f3a50) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:56 pmThe whole Hezzie’s out of Lebanon thing was quite the gaffe. No worse than the idea to pay Iran $300,000,000 post 9/11, or to partition Iraq.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 2:58 pmI just can’t wait for the next deep-hitting Katie Couric interview:
Couric (leaning in toward Biden, thoughtfully and earnestly):
Senator Biden, in light of your victorious debate last night the right-wing is now accusing you of telling 14 lies and quite possibly 17; Senator Biden, does this just further confirm to you how out of touch with America the McCain/Palin ticket is?
Meh.
Dana (973491) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:01 pmI don’t have verification for all of McCain’s claims, but I have a list which includes several additional Biden gaffes/lies (with verification).
bdshepherd (c1f6fa) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:04 pmExcellent, BDShepherd. I’ve updated the post to add your link.
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:19 pm#4 isnt a lie. Obama specifically mentioned that that both McCain and he both voted no for different bills that called for troop funding. Not sure if Biden went through the same detail level that Obama did, but it isn’t a lie. Is everything you wish to be untrue a lie to conservatives?
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:22 pmSince Palin isn’t mentioned in your original post, can I assume that everybody here thinks that Palin told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth last night?
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:27 pm#11: Mccain voted against a deadline for leaving Iraq. Sleazy democrats attached that to the troop funding so they could attack anyone wanting a surge strategy of not funding the troops. These sleazes knew someone like you would refuse to accept reality.
Mccain was always for funding the troops, and no one who is honest would ever claim otherwise. Obama was opposed to it. Period.
Juan (4cdfb7) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:36 pmsluiceinrustic –
The original post is not about Palin. You can feel free to NOT engage in standard liberal commentator trick #1: attempting to change the subject. This thread is about inaccurate statements made by Biden — period.
Icy Truth (1468e4) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:37 pmkishnevi @4 – Can you explain what the heck you are talking about concerning Biden getting it right after blowing it about defining Constitutional responsibilities of the Vice President?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:38 pmPeriod, Juan? Period? Obama voted against the funding bill that had no timeline for troop withdrawl (something that, coincidently the American people favor) and McCain voted against a bill with a timeline. So its not as cut and dried as good ol’ Juan wishes it to be doggone it, shucks, ya, say it ain’t so Juan. Will that be enough folsky-isms for y’all to get it?
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:40 pmTry harder, Truthnjustice, I’m sure you can get a few more hobby horses into a post that utterly ignores the posted topic…..
Foxfier (15ac79) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:44 pmSince Slow Joe appeared in Lebanon, Va recently and lied his a** of to the coal miners maybe he meant he and his terrorists buddy “Hussein” would be ran out of Lebanon if they appear again.
“…I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.” B Hussein Obama,
page 261 of his book, Audacity of Hope…
Any more questions about where they’re loyalty lies?
Scrapiron (c7a298) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:48 pmWhat are you talking about, Foxfier? I wasn’t changing the topic at all, I was just bringing up the fact that #4 (and I’m sure if I were to investigate probably 10-15 others) are complete fabrications. You guys aren’t even misrepresenting the facts for this stuff, this is just dead wrong. This is why your party is losing points in the polls so rapidly. The American people have seen your dog and pony show and they are tired of it.
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:54 pmtruthnjustice – Biden’s words on funding the troops:
“Number two, with regard to Barack Obama not quote funding the troops, John McCain voted the exact same way. John McCain voted against funding the troops because of an amendment he voted against had a timeline in it to draw down American troops. And John said I’m not going to fund the troops if in fact there’s a time line. Barack Obama and I agree fully and completely on one thing. You’ve got to have a time line to draw down the troops and shift responsibility to the Iraqis.”
Biden provides the needed context in the second sentence to prove it is indeed not “the exact same way” and his first sentence is a lie. Guess which sentence will be picked up by the media?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 3:58 pmtruthnjustice,
I’ve asked people to provide links proving or disproving these claims. What’s your problem and, more important, where are your links?
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:00 pmliesandothershitpulledfromyourass
True or False – Baracky voted against the bill to fund the troops with no timeline attached.
True or False – Biden rightfully called him on it at the time.
True or False – McCain voted against a funding measure that was tied to a specific timetable for withdrawal.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:03 pmYou may not like the link, since it is a non-partisan third party group that isn’t swallowing the party line and shitting out it’s talking points, but that is exactly what I am referring to. This issue is being used by McCain to accentuate something that simply isn’t true.
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:05 pmtnj – What link?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:09 pmAnd, for what it is worth, #16 is a very serious charge. I can’t believe he got on the ticket spewing that lie! Is not having had a meal at a restaurant you cite in a debate as serious as not remembering a single magazine you’ve ever read in your entire life?
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:11 pmhttp://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_truth_on_troop_support.html
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:12 pmI think truthnjustice’s FactCheck.org link is in response to claim #4:
Here’s the introduction from the FactCheck.org analysis:
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:14 pmtruthnjustice,
Sarcasm doesn’t do much for your personality. Deal with the list or move on.
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:16 pmA lobotomy would not do much for that personality, DRJ.
The restaurant thing is certainly not serious, but is illustrative of how irrelevant facts are to the Dems and their comrades in the MSM.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:23 pmliesandothershitpulledfromyourass
Let’s try this again. A simple true or false quiz.
True or False – Baracky voted against the bill to fund the troops with no timeline attached.
True or False – Biden rightfully called him on it at the time.
True or False – McCain voted against a funding measure that was tied to a specific timetable for withdrawal.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:24 pmIt’s clear in context that it was no more than a slip-up. Biden was referring to Syria. And argument that it’s anything else begins with a lie. NRO? Totten? Both? It doesn’t matter. BS for the illiterate “base.”
The Supreme Leader of Iran is Ali Khamenei.
Here’s a nice graph on off-shore oil drilling.
And on Afghanistan
Readnek (105b91) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:25 pmThe only time-line that the American people* approve of is Victory!
*Traitorous, lying, ACORN/MoveOn/Leninist scum excepted.
AOracle (90addc) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:25 pmDRJ… there is more to that link. I recommend reading all of it. I wasn’t being sarcastic. I am totally serious. I think that where someone ate dinner 20 years ago is a very serious issue during this important election year. Your Iraq charge is incorrect too. Biden was referring to McCain’s siding with Bush about WMD in Iraq. We never found WMD in Iraq. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:27 pmThe surge worked. Congrats. Can we focus on where the terrorists actually live now? Oh, wait. I guess they do live in Iraq now that we’ve created a nice breeding ground for them there. But yeah, it was definitely a good idea to start a war on two fronts. Good call, fellas.
Who is McKiernan? Don’t you mean McClelland?
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:30 pmReadnek,
Biden meant to say Syria? Michael Totten answered that one already:
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:31 pmWhen I read,
it is clear he is talking about Syria. There are no terrorists in Syria.
Show of hands, who thinks that Redneck is the most mendoucheous of the drive-by trolls?
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:33 pmThis speech is about Katie’s Restaurant, but it’s not about Katie, or the restaurant, and the restaurant’s not there anymore, what am I saying?, why’d I call the song Katies Restaurant?
You can say anything you want at Katie’s Restaurant.
fat tony (f86b83) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:34 pmYou can say anything you want at Katie’s Restaurant.
Walk right in it’s around the back
God love you, everyone walk for Barack.
You can say anything you want at Katie’s Restaurant.
Though liesdeceptionandmendoucheous is quickly gaining ground …
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:35 pmReadnek – Nice try but no cigar. The U.S. and France did not kick Syria out of Lebanon, the Lebanese people did. Your game of substitution doesn’t even work. Biden screwed up, whichever way you want to play it.
What difference does the identity of the Supreme Leader of Iran make. Obama responded affirmatively. Parsing the identity is silliness. If the ayatollahs disagreed with whay Imadamnutjob was saying around the world they’d muzzle him, right?
A critical element of the Iraq surge was the change in COIN tactics. Military success in Iraq had to come before long-term political success. How exactly is this different from what the general is saying except perhaps for the duration of the increase of troops? Refresh your memory by reading Palin’s words. They are very close to the general’s not Biden’s.
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:36 pmtruthnjustice,
Of course I read your link. Not only had I read it before but I linked it again for you in these comments, along with the McCain-Palin claim to which I think you were responding.
I tried to engage with you in a serious way but you clearly aren’t serious about reciprocating. Enjoy yourself.
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:38 pmdaleyrocks – Actual facts, and heaven forbid, a little nuance are simply not relevant to these people. The will advance Teh Narrative and the talking points du jour without fail.
If a Republican noted that the Cubs are having a horrific choke-job in the playoffs, these clowns would argue that they had the best record in the NL during the regular season, as though that had any relevance.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:40 pmOh, BTW, truther…
AOracle (90addc) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:40 pmThere were WMD found in Iraq after the liberation.
Stores of chemical and biological compounds were found in more than one military dump.
…just another inconvenient truth!
“But yeah, it was definitely a good idea to start a war on two fronts. Good call, fellas.”
tnj – Why not. We never reduced our commitment of resources to Afghanistan when we invaded Iraq as liberals keep imply. You can look it up if you dare tnj. This taking your eye off the ball crap is just an empty talking point to divert from the success in Iraq.
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:41 pmDRJ – You are far more patient than I. I gave up on truthjusticeandtheamericanway after its second comment.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:41 pmdaleyrocks – We all know that the Dems would have sent 9837163 bajillion troops to Afghanist, if only they had their way.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:43 pmI apologize if this message comes through with errors. I spit out my water when I read the phrase ‘success in Iraq’. You guys gotta warn me when you write stuff like that. Try ****WARNING HILARIOUS COMMENT TO FOLLOW****.
I can see you’re having trouble with your pronounds today, JD. You must have been educated in a red state. I am a he, not an it.
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:52 pmOnce I saw that awesome link to MSNBC, I immediately deduced some major trollbotting happening there.
Dmac (e639cc) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:55 pmNo, you are an it.
Success in Iraq is a joke to it. How telling.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 4:56 pmWell, aren’t you fantastically cordial. Are you housetrained?
Oh! Right. The only links that have any truth to them are from the heritage foundation and to http://www.imcrazy****.org
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:02 pm“I can see you’re having trouble with your pronounds today, JD.”
Uh, what? “Pronounds?”
Gee, you really are “edumacated,” aren’t you?
“Oh, wait. I guess they do live in Iraq now that we’ve created a nice breeding ground for them there.”
Wow, I guess you really are awesomely intelligent, we’ve never heard that one before. Unfortunately, there is no proof of that anywhere, except within your own fevered imagination.
“I am a he, not an it.”
I was going to choose “none of the above,” but we’ll have to take your word on that at this point.
Dmac (e639cc) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:02 pmOops. I made a mistake and typed one extra letter. I guess that mistake is no worse than the mistake that is this entire website.
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:04 pm“…than the mistake that is this entire website.”
Hilarious, comedy gold!
ToothnPustial, do you write for The Daily Show?
Dmac (e639cc) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:10 pmYup, still an it. An androgynous troll.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:17 pm“it is clear he is talking about Syria. There are no terrorists in Syria.”
Where did you find that second sentence? It wasn’t in anything I wrote.
Debate Transcript
Totten is an idiot. The paragraph you quote makes no sense. Biden meant Hezbollah because he referred to them correctly in the next sentence? So we kicked them out but then all of a sudden they’re back?
“But he clearly meant to say [we kicked Hezbollah out], not Syria, because he correctly notes just a few sentences later that Hezbollah is part of Lebanon’s government.”
You can’t even make that make sense.
You’re quoting Totten because he’s saying what you want to believe. Biden is making sense however, if you think that in that one reference, he meant to say Syria.
Make up your own mind. Be an idiot all on your owen if you want to,
Calls for US pressure on Syria
Readnek (105b91) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:20 pmDaleyrocks–sorry for not being clearer.
What I mean was simply that, for the moment, on that particular point, Biden took the classical conservative position, and Palin the typical liberal position. He screwed up the details but got the principle right; she screwed it up, period.
kishnevi (2dbd61) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:22 pmDmac – I think it writes Olberdouche’s rants.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:23 pmWhen anyone says Lebanon, you have to assume they are talking about Syria. Everybody knows that. Especially someone with 36 years of foreign policy experience. Personally, anyone that proposes paying Iran $300,000,000 post 9/11, and thinks that partitioning Iraq is a good plan is a serious person, someone to be taken very seriously.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:26 pmReadnek – So now to make it work you have to say Biden was part right and part wrong? Do you have on record links to his calls for NATO intervention when we kicked Syria/Hezbollah out? When did our kicking allegedly occur?
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 5:53 pmSigh. I don’t have enough time or interest to disrupt propaganda to the converted, DRJ, but here’s what I can do in ten minutes:
#3:Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.
You really shouldn’t need my help to understand that a politician coming out with a new stance on an issue isn’t a lie, it’s a change in position. It’s hard to deal with you in good faith when we must wade through this sort of tedious bs.
Biden opposed drilling. Barack Obama came around to a position of accepting drilling under certain conditions. Biden accepted BO’s position. Next.
#1: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.
I don’t know if this is true or not, but it’s immediately disqualified, because Biden was disputing a bs lie to begin with. The bill was a budget resolution, and from what I understand, it was a symbolic measure that wouldn’t have raised anyone’s taxes if passed.
Ok, Biden was wrong (“lied”). But Palin was also lying:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/
The vote did not actually raise taxes: it merely set general budgetary guidelines
So, I think that cancels out.
10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.
Again, you don’t need a fact checker or links – you just need to use your brain for ten seconds. McCain called for more regulation, at some point in his career, on F & F. He has also voted to weaken various regulations, financial and otherwise, hundreds of times over his career. Net, he’s overwhelmingly a deregulationist. Thus, both of these statements are true. Again, pedantic sophistry.
12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
I don’t have links here, but considering the Dem. team has been extremely consistent on the 250K figure, don’t you think these guys should be obligated to have their own link? Or some sort of argument? Why do you post this cr*p on the basis of pure myth?
Here, I’ll give you a link – to the net tax increase / decrease by bracket.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html
This suggests Dem’s plan is revenue neutral through 600K.
Meanwhile, Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Barack_Obama#Taxation
Lists three separate possible taxes increases on folks over 250K, but none over 200K. So, that’s a bunch of evidence on my side, but none on theirs.
7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false
Actually, that’s not what Biden said. Biden said, correctly, that McCain would end the ability of corporations to deduct employee health care expenses from their taxes. The result is a 12K increase in healthcare costs, on average, per employee, to businesses. The response to this is going to lead to costs to individuals that go well
beyond McCain’s 5K tax credit.
So, what Biden said in reality is not what they said, and quite correct. Don’t believe me, go check the transcript.
So far, I’ve found five of them to be stupid b*llshit, and one of them to be a genuinely wrong statement by Biden. DRJ, when you throw bu*lshit onto your site without subjecting it to thirty seconds of thought, much less independent checking, but and “leave it to left-wing opponents” to demonstrate what’s wrong, you are imitating the lowest, most pathetic lapses in judgement, quality, and accuracy of the MSM you people spend so much time decrying.
I await either your logical and evidentiary disputation of these knockdowns, or else your crossing out of five of these. In fact, you should do a new post. When I have some more time, I’ll knock down the next five.
The real problem is that a large percentage of the stuff posted on here is this kind of dumpster diving.
glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:03 pmglasnost presents its opinions as fact and declares victory! Hurrah, glasnost!
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:07 pmJD at 57: Be fair, now. Slow Joe only proposed giving $200,000,000 to Iran. $300,000,000 was the amount of the weapons deal the mullahs were negotiating with the Russians at the time.
fat tony (f86b83) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:26 pm“Be an idiot all on your owen if you want to…”
This must be some kind of new language, kind of Southern, but also doo – hicky as well; call it Cornhusker dialect.
“I don’t have enough time or interest to disrupt propaganda to the converted, DRJ, but here’s what I can do in ten minutes…”
And we don’t have enough time to waste on drivel and factless assertions made by Trolls that come by here about once every three months, but gee, thanks for all of your hard work.
“I await either your logical and evidentiary dIisputation of these knockdowns, or else your crossing out of five of these. In fact, you should do a new post.”
And we, the benighted ones, await your imminent beclowning, based on your delusional sense of grandeur and your pompous and narcissistic tendencies that are clearly evidentiary for all to see. In fact, you should cross out your eyes immediately, lest you force yourself to look in the mirror at a classic example of what we like to identify here as an Ulberdouche. Congrats, your hard work has really paid off here.
Dmac (e639cc) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:35 pmI will give a pass to JD on the pronoun (yeah, you got me, I had a little typo in the one of my last posts) since he doesn’t know how to identify men from women. Most of the men on here can’t do that, I am sure.
truthnjustice (d99227) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:36 pm“The real problem is that a large percentage of the stuff posted on here is this kind of dumpster diving.”
Which must be several rungs above your usual haunts on the intartubes, glasnost, given that you still make no sense.
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:41 pmtruthisrelative – I could not care less if you are a boy or a girl. I know you are, without a doubt, neither a man nor a woman. Hence, an it.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 6:54 pm“Most of the men on here can’t do that, I am sure.”
Your powers of sarcasm are truly awesome – we must look away, lest we turn into stone from your assault of witticisms.
As for your sexuality, I still choose e)- none of the above. Or maybe f) – bi – curious.
Dmac (e639cc) — 10/3/2008 @ 7:06 pmSpeaking of someone who doesn’t know how to tell men from women.
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/3/2008 @ 7:06 pmDRJ has a burr under her saddle tonite. I like.
JD (f7900a) — 10/3/2008 @ 7:08 pmBiden’s biggest lies were that Obama was right about Iraq throughout and that Bush and Maliki agree with Obama’s 16 month withdrawal plan.
Everybody knows Obama was wrong about the Surge, however only a minority appreciate he was wrong about whether the war was wise. The majority prefer to believe, if they think about it, that Saddam would today, post sanctions not be developing nuclear weapons. This majority believes that Saddam pretended to have WMD because he feared Iran. At the same time they appear to believe that Saddam would have stood by and not reconstituted his weapons programs even as the neighbor he feared so much, Iran, developed nuclear weapons.
But the most brazen lie of all is the 16 month timetable lie. 16 months from the time Obama announced his proposal in January 2007 is April 2008.
American withdrawal as of that date, without a Surge, leaves Iraq in a civil war and al Qaeda with s foothold in an oil rich country. 16 months, even from today, post Bush Surge, leaves al Qaeda defeated in Iraq and the nation largely at peace. Night and day. Hard to believe how many people are buying this nonsense.
The Democrats are so stupid on defense I’m surprised they aren’t being wiped out.
Terry Gain (d4582a) — 10/3/2008 @ 7:30 pmDRJ, thanks for demonstrating that you’re paying attention to these comments. Still waiting you for you to refute or renounce.
glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/3/2008 @ 7:48 pmThis thread is about inaccurate statements made by Biden — period.
Because?
steve (472f17) — 10/3/2008 @ 10:26 pmI’d note that Biden could be correct about #14 (taxes under Reagan) if he claims he meant taxes at the time Reagan came into office.
At the start of Reagan’s first term, the top marginal rate was 70% (yes, seventy per cent). The first round of tax cuts dropped this to 50% (and how the Democrats screamed!). Later it dropped to 30-something and ended at something like 35%.
But no matter what Obama does, the marginal rates will be less than 70% and likely less than 50%. So, at least as it applies to 1981-1982, his claim is correct. And a very low bar.
Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 10/3/2008 @ 11:06 pmBecause?
Comment by steve
‘cus…the title is “Fact-Checking Biden”?
Foxfier (15ac79) — 10/3/2008 @ 11:18 pmThis thread is about inaccurate statements made by Biden — period.
Taking a short break from railing against media bias.
steve (472f17) — 10/4/2008 @ 7:12 am“Still waiting you for you to refute or renounce.”
And we’re still waiting for you to realize that your morning ritual of braying at your own self – reflection in your mirror is indicative of the fecal matter that composes the entirety of your being.
Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/4/2008 @ 7:29 amIt was much easier for Biden to have ‘command of the facts’ when he made most of them up.
eaglewingz08 (98291e) — 10/4/2008 @ 9:23 amAs someone more famous once said, ‘Sir you are entitled to your opinion, but you cannot make up your own facts’.
Imagine if Gov Palin had said the US and France had kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon!
The NYSlimes and WashCompost and all major media outlets would be demanding her resignation from the ticket, questioning her fitness as Governor of Alaska, demanding her resignation as Governor, demanding McCain resign from the Senate, they’d seriously question his judgment, etc.
But the fact they haven’t demanded the same of Obama and Biden show they are in the tank of Obama.
Dissapointing, DRJ. Why even bother to put out a request for links discrediting items on your list and then ignore them? You do a good job of acting like you have a genuine interest in whether your anti-Biden cr*p is or is not accurate, but anyone who bothers to skim your comments will figure out how false that is.
I would also have to add #4. No, I don’t have a link. What would I link to? The legislative vote record? Frankly, it’s insulting even to go there. No one seriously disputes that John McCain voted against a bill funding the troops during the same debate that BO voted against a bill funding the troops. Hell, the language of the explanation in the very point implicitly acknowledges that. It just makes a bunch of excuses and re-descriptions of what McCain did and than says that Joe Biden’s claim is “false” because he doesn’t include their excuses.
Considering you haven’t even bothered to refute or correct with the links I’ve already posted, I see little point in wasting my time finding a link citing that, yes, John McCain voted against the funding bill that included a timeline. No one here really doubts that, which proves the stupidity of both the initial charge made by McCain-Biden and the ridiculous cr*p that Biden’s accurate account of McCain’s behavior is a “lie”.
For a website that spends most of its time complaining about media inaccuracies, you seem like total hypocrites about now.
glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:01 amglasnost – Your original comment was a pile of garbage. Why would you seriously expect anybody to spend time responding to it? Address Biden’s falsehoods, the topic of the thread, not offsetting Palin falsehoods that you claim occurred or other topics that interest you, other fabulist topics, address what McKieran actually said and compare it to what Palin said, and maybe you’d have a comment worth a response.
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:11 amDharp et al:
Have fun. Really! You’re dickw*ds. A very common form of being to encounter. Really not worth my time dealing with, at all, until you actually begin to dispute rationally on the topic at hand. So, yeah. Have fun. I’m not Jharp, can’t be bothered with you.
glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:17 amglasnost – I see little point in wasting my time…
So do we. Rather than going ‘Alec Baldwin’ on us and talking about leaving, I would suggest either leaving or changing your interaction away from disingenuous talking points.
Your reluctance to do either action tells me that you are here precisely to waste time.
Apogee (186a12) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:24 amglasnost – buh-bye.
daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:39 amGuys Glasnost, pretty much just handed you guys your heads on a platter in a very civilized and effective manner.
And all you can do is insult and alienate him.
No counter-arugment or attempt to justify your positions?
WTF??
When even someone as on top of his arguments and his presentation as Glasnost is forced to give up on you guys it’s time to take a serious look at yourselves.
(And save your shite for someone who cares, Apogee.)
Peter (e70d1c) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:45 amglasnost – it’s a clubhouse.
steve (472f17) — 10/4/2008 @ 11:56 amsteve – it’s a clubhouse
Yes. A fact club.
That’s the reason that you and glasnost are having trouble with membership.
Apogee (186a12) — 10/4/2008 @ 12:10 pmYes. A fact club.
Biden’s “Drill we must” isn’t counter-factual because he’d earlier been opposed. McCain never opposed the fed’s drilling moratorium until now.
steve (472f17) — 10/4/2008 @ 1:04 pmI looked at the words you posted above
as they were taken out of context, not complete, etc there is no way to say there were lies.
nlcatter (04803c) — 10/6/2008 @ 9:04 amill take 1 t oshow you lies about lies
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.
wahtis the lie? biden realizes the public thinks drilling will help (it wont) and congress allowed it to happed, he still thinks ecological damage like Vladex exxon will happen,
other words about so called lies are also not.
but I to odont have time to waste with morons here, I am goign to canvasss to get Obamas lead even higher – oh and I dont hide like you GOP cowards gadfly169 at yahoo
ciao
nlcatter (04803c) — 10/6/2008 @ 10:46 amill take 1 t oshow you lies about lies
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.
wahtis the lie? biden realizes the public thinks drilling will help (it wont) and congress allowed it to happed, he still thinks ecological damage like Valdez exxon will happen,
other words about so called lies are also not.
but I to odont have time to waste with morons here, I am goign to canvasss to get Obamas lead even higher – oh and I dont hide like you GOP cowards gadfly169 at yahoo
ciao
nlcatter (04803c) — 10/6/2008 @ 10:46 amglasnost,
Sorry for not responding before. Between server issues and checking the filter for missed comments, I saw your first lengthy comment yesterday but I missed the others.
My theory is that commenters are welcome to critique or defend the information in a post. I try to follow comments on my posts and engage in discussions, but I don’t always have time. Yesterday and today have been days when I haven’t had time.
DRJ (c953ab) — 10/6/2008 @ 10:11 pmDRJ,
I’ll try to be polite as well, then. Politely, I’m telling you that posting a list of alledged lies made by a political figure while abdicating all responsibility for an attempt to determine whether said claims of lies are, or are not, accurate,
seems to be to be pretty identical to behavior often claimed to be wrong on this site when done by the MSM.
At your leisure, I invite you to explain why it’s different when you post things that might be, or in this case are, false, without checking first, than when the LA Times does it. No one else is checking on this thread anymore. Let’s have a nice, perfectly civil debate on the matter.
glasnost (a6ffe0) — 10/6/2008 @ 10:49 pm