Patterico's Pontifications


Andrew Sullivan: Hey Everyone! Let’s Second-Guess Sarah Palin’s Decision to Have an Amniocentesis!

Filed under: 2008 Election — Patterico @ 7:10 am

Andrew Sullivan: “The truth is: no-one’s legal, consensual, adult private life should be plundered and exposed for political purposes.”

Of course, that’s Andrew Sullivan circa 2001 — when the private life being exposed was his own. Namely, his own hypocritical search for the kind of risky unprotected sex that he has spent his career denouncing.

By contrast, Andrew Sullivan circa 2008 has written, by my count, seven posts in recent days about whether Sarah Palin should have had an amniocentesis.

That seems at least as private as an ad placed on the Internet telling the world what “loads” you’ll give and take, and precisely where you’ll give and take them. Doesn’t it?

93 Responses to “Andrew Sullivan: Hey Everyone! Let’s Second-Guess Sarah Palin’s Decision to Have an Amniocentesis!”

  1. Apparently, just as some people believe that some races “can’t be racist” there are those who believe that some liberals “can’t be hypocrites”.

    Or to paraphrase:
    Hypocrisy in attacking conservatives is no vice.

    tyree (7a25f8)

  2. The liberals are DESPERATE to undermine conservative support for the McCain/Palin ticket. There is apparently some belief on the Left that hard-core pro-lifers do not believe in amniocentesis, and so they would somehow be turned off of Sarah Palin because she had one. But it’s practically medical malpractice for any OB/GYN not to insist on one for a 43-year-old mother.

    rockmom (e42807)

  3. He really has dove down the rabbit hole over Gov. Palin. Not that he wasn’t batshit krazy before.

    JD (41e64f)

  4. Interesting .. when my second child came along, the AFP (Alpha Fetal Protein) numbers were high and my wife had an amniocentesis.

    Frankly, we never considered anything but birth, so in hindsight we always thought it was a mistake. They do insert a needle to take a sample of the amniotic fluid, so there is some risk.

    A month of so later, while visiting Jefferson Hospital in Philadelphia to see their ultrasound facility, I ask the chief sonographer if they ever used “guides” on the ultrasound probes to to aid with the procedure. He laughed .. “I’ve seen doctors use the guides and stick the baby in the head, while I’ve seen other doctors do it all by feel and do it perfectly every time.”

    That really made me feel the amniocentesis was a mistake.

    My bet is that Sarah Palin thinks it was probably a mistake as well.

    Neo (cba5df)

  5. Can I just say how incredibly strange it is for a gay man to pass judgement on what a pregnant heterosexual woman chooses to do?

    Isn’t this part of a woman’s “right to choose”? Or does that only apply to woman who wish to abort a pregnancy?

    What a bad person, is Our Mr. Sullivan.

    Eric Blair (81e599)

  6. Welcome to a brave new world, Eric…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  7. “A Brave New World”…
    Is that where we protect individuals from the consequences of their own actions,
    thus perpetuating their defective genes in the gene pool?

    Ah, we are such a wise people.

    Another Drew (ae7682)

  8. perpetuating their defective genes in the gene pool?
    Assuming arguendo that Andrew Sullivan is defective (I personally think he is), as long as he persists in homosexual sex, and never engages in heterosexual activity, there is no risk of his genes contributing to gene pool. He’s a dead end.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  9. Can I just say how incredibly strange it is for a gay man to pass judgement on what a pregnant heterosexual woman chooses to do?

    Its more than incredibly strange – he has become seriously obsessed with Palin’s plumbing and activities therein. I am utterly creeped out by this person. At what point does The Atlantic finally realize they are providing public passage to a very sick person?

    Dana (b4a26c)

  10. We did genetic testing. We wanted to be prepared. Not amniocentesis, a different procedure through the cervix, but it still had its risks. All invasive medical procedures have risks.

    Forget Sullivan. His mouth and his anus are interchangeable for what matters to him. Let him babble.

    The fact which needs not be argued, but on occasion reminded, is that Sarah Palin knew she was going to have a Downs baby and decided to let it live.

    nk (189a81)

  11. Hey Andrew has some very public passages. That’s how he got in the fix that he’s in.

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  12. That Andrew Sullivan is defective has not one single thing to do with his preference for being a pitcher or catcher.

    Knowing that his love spunk cannot produce any offspring is comforting.

    JD (41e64f)

  13. What nk said. Well done.

    Old Coot (2f3a50)

  14. Knowing that his love spunk cannot produce any offspring is comforting.

    That’s odd. I am utterly incapable from taking any comfort from any thought involving Sully’s spooge…

    *wreches violently*

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  15. Not to threadjack, but this is a major story, IMHO:

    By all means, let’s discuss the Dem’s insistence that the WOT is a waste of resources, and that the many groups wishing to kill us are mostly a figment of our imaginations at this point. Let’s have Bambi debate McCain on this one – and let’s watch the ghouls on the Left make the claim that this attack was somehow orchestrated by the evil Bushies.

    Dmac (e639cc)

  16. Maybe Sully and MoDo should get together, roll around on a bed full of Xanax and Valium while mainlining Mojitos, and see where nature leads them …

    JD (41e64f)

  17. It’s not Palin’s Republicanism that bothers him. It’s Palin’s glorious heterosexual fertility.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  18. He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. Nietzsche

    Sullivan is now so obsessed with helping Obama and justifying his Trig Trutherism. His reptilian brain is signaling danger. Trouble is he is missing the fact that his actions in attacking Sarah Palin are accellerating his decent from being a serious journalist to ahack that is willing to say anything. He is becoming the Daily Kos. Good thing is, this strangely enough helps John McCain.

    Joe (8102a5)

  19. Just when you think that Sullivan couldn’t possibly lower himself any further, he sinks to the occasion.

    And for those of you feeling grateful that he can’t father a child, two words: Michael Jackson.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  20. Are you suggesting that he has sex with Micheal Jackson?

    Or that Jacko arranges for Sully to “acquire” young boys?

    Interesting! Provacative!

    We mere ask the questions, what is Sully so afraid of?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  21. It’s Palin’s glorious heterosexual fertility.

    I mentioned this a few weeks back – its about the fresh eggs. What Sully, the femosaurs, and the white, mid-60’s aged journalists all share is their collective fear of ova. It has little or nothing to do with the R after her name. And its amusing and oddly exhilirating to see the power of a fertile woman in politics…

    Dana (b4a26c)

  22. Yeah, but does Sarah Palin have Power Glutes? Huh?

    Pablo (99243e)

  23. So, using liberal logic, am I to assume that this guy should exist….

    Paul Atreides (0f949e)

  24. I am beginning to think that women just don’t do anything for him.

    Natalie (0f0f46)

  25. Pablo,

    I’ll see you in the parking lot.

    Todd Palin

    nk (189a81)

  26. So, using liberal logic, am I to assume that this guy shouldn’t exist….

    Paul Atreides (0f949e)

  27. So, using liberal logic, am I to assume that this guy shouldn’t exist….

    The guy I am referencing is Chris Burke, who is the Down Syndrome actor from the old tv series Life Goes On. The link to his profile was dropped from my post when I submitted it.

    Paul Atreides (0f949e)

  28. Corky plays in a band, and he played at my daughter’s school last year. They really had a good time. Don’t go making fun of Corky. 😉

    JD (41e64f)

  29. #20 – Scott Jacobs

    Are you suggesting that he has sex with Micheal Jackson?

    — And you said I made you retch by saying I wanted to do Susan Sarandon? DUDE!!!

    Maybe I should’ve made it clearer that he could become a “donor” a la David Crosby.

    If Ellen gets pregnant I want to see a paternity test.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  30. #23 – Natalie

    I am beginning to think that women just don’t do anything for him.

    — Yeah they do. They make him really, really angry that he can’t be one of them.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  31. Great name Paul.

    daleyrocks (d9ec17)

  32. Are you suggesting that he has sex with Micheal Jackson?

    I will be over in the corner bleaching my mind’s eye. kthnxby

    JD (41e64f)

  33. JD wrote: He really has dove down the rabbit hole over Gov. Palin.

    Naaaah. It’s too easy.

    L.N. Smithee (b048eb)

  34. LN – I freakin’ teed it up for you. Someone should hit that harder than Tiger hitting a 2-iron.

    JD (41e64f)

  35. Neo believes having had their amnio was a mistake, principally when feeling nauseous at an “offhand comment” that said much more than the speaker intended. nk and spouse didn’t do an amnio because of the risk to the child, but did do another genetic test (of less risk) to be prepared.

    For someone who is pro-life and would not abort no matter what the amnio says, it is a personal decision that is rational either way.

    The argument for is to “be prepared”. That can mean that the couple is emotionally prepared knowing they will have a child with some developmental problems, or it could mean medically prepared at birth or with an in utero procedure to correct an accompanying defect such as a form of congenital heart disease (which is higher in Down) or spina bifida. The ability to do in utero procedures has been around for decades ala C. Everett Koop, MD.

    No pro-life physician or bio-ethicist I know would have a problem with doing an amnio for any of the “be prepared” scenarios above. I have also not encountered any individual thinking that way, though I imagine there could be some.

    In some ways the bigger problem is having an amnio, finding there is a problem, then putting up with all of the BS they’re likely to get from most of the medical establishment when they want to carry the child to term. Of course, there are many who would support the action as well and the couple would do better to find one.

    To Neo, I would encourage you to not feel guilty in any way about doing the amnio. The problem you encountered was shock at an attitude that disrespects life and uses technology to harm rather than help. If rockmom is correct in why Sullivan is so agitated about it, that is another example of people’s attitudes already being so slanted in one direction they just can’t comprehend the “foolishness” of those who want to protect innocent and vulnerable life.

    Another Drew- do you consider yourself wise enough to decide what genes should be allowed to persist? Do you have a list of people you would feel comfortable making the decision when it came to you? You know, red haired and blond haired people with fair skin have a higher risk of developing melanoma. Maybe we shouldn’t let them breed, either that or make them live in Alaska too.

    Of course, if that policy was in effect I wouldn’t be writing this post.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  36. JD, L.N….
    Hey, we’re trying to be serious here!

    You guys are just having too much fun with this.


    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  37. MD…
    My problem is with the Nanny-State that tries to shield us from the consequences of our stupid behavior.
    A great many of the bad-apples we encounter in our lives are only alive because of that shielding; in a previous century they would have perished due to their own actions.
    I don’t have to choose. All I have to do is stand back and watch as the truly dumb do themselves.
    It was Brock Yates AIR who, while writing at Car&Driver, proposed that speed-limits be abolished for one-month of each year to allow the defective genes to be filtered from the pool. Unfortunately, they have sometimes already begun breeding by the time they are driving; perhaps that is why he suggested it as an annual excercise.
    Even a Conservative can be a Darwinist.

    Another Drew (8a6fd1)

  38. I recall the doc recommending amnio when my wife was pregnant with my oldest, at the age of 22. Methinks St. Andrew knows less than nothing about things related to childbirth.

    Pablo (99243e)

  39. MD in Philly —

    Thank you for taking on Neo in a much more reasoned and fact-filled manner than I would have done.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  40. I have a dilemna, that I would like some of your opinions on.

    We had to utilize IVF in order to have our second little angelic daughter. We have 2 eggs that were not utilized, and we have to figure out what to do with them. As I understand it, we can donate them to research, not something I want to do, donate them back to the facility who will then sell them to someone attempting to have a child, not something I want to do, or to have them destroyed, again not something I want to do. However, it is freaking expensive to keep them, and not really cost effective. Any suggestions? Other choices?

    JD (41e64f)

  41. The argument for is to “be prepared”.

    Yes. I was having trouble getting one test (not an amnio) performed and was thinking about just skipping it. A friend of mine spelled out some of the reasons why, including the fact that it would give my husband time to accept and prepare for problems, if there were any.

    And Neo and MD in Philly, my oldest son was born at Jefferson, so I’m reminded again what a small small Internet it is.

    MamaAJ (788539)

  42. Social Darwinism isn’t quite the same thing as letting nature take its course. For examples, check out the sub-genre of military science fiction writing, some of which is very good — and some of which is very scary.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  43. JD, just my opinion, but if you believe in the positive aspects of adoption I say donate them back to the facility.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  44. Has it ever been confirmed that the diagnosis of Trig was done through an amniocentesis? My wife had our last child at 41, and they tested her using a blood test, not an amnio. The doctor told her that the blood test has almost the same accuracy, so he doesn’t risk performing amnios any longer.

    wls (d2ce3b)

  45. JD – I’d opt to have them destroyed. That’s what nature does with the vast majority of unfertilized human eggs.

    cboldt (3d73dd)

  46. JD,

    Use them to have more kids of your own.

    Soronel Haetir (2fa914)

  47. They make him really, really angry that he can’t be one of them

    I understand that there are operations now that can change that…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  48. We’ve had doctors argue that the amnio should be done because there may be things they can do (other than abortion!) if they know. It is certainly not a particularly risky procedure. Indeed, it is so routine that I suspect most couples have it done without even realizing what it is for. Our doctor was surprised that we questioned it.

    Sullivan is not only not a physician, but I suspect he has very little knowledge of the reproductive system. He is not like most of us who confront the responsibility of fertility one way or the other almost every day. It is galling to see him presume to preach on the subject at all. After all, has he ever had to make a real life decision regarding it? (pun fully intended)

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  49. wls asked: Has it ever been confirmed that the diagnosis of Trig was done through an amniocentesis?

    PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Gov. Palin, when you were 13 weeks pregnant, last December, you had an amniocentesis that determined Trig had Down syndrome.
    SARAH: I was grateful to have all those months to prepare. I can’t imagine the moms that are surprised at the end. I think they have it a lot harder.

    — One might assume that she would have corrected them if the question was based on a factual inaccuracy.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  50. #46 – Scott Jacobs

    I understand that there are operations now that can change that…

    An illustrative moment from Barney Miller:
    Officer Levitt is in drag for mugging detail. After taking shots from the squad, he turns to the yet-unheard-from Dietrich and asks him if he wants to say something. Without hesitation Dietrich snaps, “You’re an ugly broad!”

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  51. I believe it is only a screening test (unless it has gotten a whole lot better over the last decade), although most people abort in spite of that.

    I know several families who were told the results were positive, refused the doctor’s office offer to schedule an abortion, and had fine healthy children.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  52. Thanks, folks.

    Icy @ 42. That was our initial inclination, but it is kind of unnerving to have the chance of our angels someday meeting their brother or sister. Plus, the facility actually sells it to the recipient, rather than giving it to them. That just seems wrong.

    Soronel – Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Better Half might hear you.

    JD (41e64f)

  53. However, it is freaking expensive to keep them, and not really cost effective. Any suggestions? Other choices?

    It comes down to two things, JD: have them implanted somewhere or don’t.

    If your decision does not involve having them be part of an attempt to carry to term, then by all means donate them for research. Simply discarding them is the least desirable outcome. I have yet to hear a moral or ethical rationale for discarding them over using them for research, and I’ve been asking the question for a long, long time.

    Pablo (99243e)

  54. Plus, the facility actually sells it to the recipient, rather than giving it to them. That just seems wrong.

    Do they actually put a price on the embryo or is it storage/services they charge for? That does seem wrong.

    Pablo (99243e)

  55. Pablo’s right, JD. These are rare and vital tools for research and donating them means the research project only has to pay to store them and not pay to acquire them.

    And, no, Pablo, I never thought you’d be right either. You may be a tool, but at least you’re a rational tool.

    timb (a83d56)

  56. Pablo – Thanks. It is my understanding that they charge the recipient, or their insurance, for the embryo. Seems wrong. Donating them to research is free, and some study at Harvard has already contacted us.

    Timmah – When I asked for some people’s advise, you can assume that you were in the group of people whose advise I was not seeking.

    JD (41e64f)

  57. timbeeeeerrrrrrr, you’re not quite getting it. JD said that donating them for research is off the table. He and I were talking about donating them for another couple’s use in trying to conceive.

    Icy Truth (7e1f91)

  58. Icy – English is not timmah’s native tongue. He speaks twatwaffle, fluently.

    JD (41e64f)

  59. #45, Soronel…

    While not on topic, but related to sex, and children…

    Soronel, please if you can, give me an example of how K 6 through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV AIDS would be taught to kindergarten students.

    …aside…I know, I can’t think of a way to do that either…

    Just wondering, since seem to ignore things….posted this a couple of days ago in a discussion sting with you….

    reff (959425)

  60. BTW, JD:

    donate them back to the facility who will then sell them to someone attempting to have a child,

    is there any guarantee of that, or are you simply releasing your interest in them? Or, put another way, what prevents the facility from licensing them for research?

    Pablo (99243e)

  61. Please keep in mind that it’s not that they have a double standard. It’s that they have no standard.

    Every attack is an attempt to turn the standards of others against them.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  62. I didn’t read the whole thread, JD, I read Pablo’s comments and he made sense to me. Since you claim “research is off the table,” then, once again, you have proved you make the same sort of semi-coherent life decisions that you make in politics. i was hoping you were competent in something, but, as always with you, I underestimate your ability to do stupid things.

    Although, I have NEVER underestimated your ability to think your little words are funny. man, twatwaffle was funny….well, never. but, you keep it up, little man.

    timb (a83d56)

  63. Shut up, Timmah!

    Pablo (99243e)

  64. JD, you can have them transferred to a facility that will NOT charge the recipients. They do exist. Or transfer them to a facility that charges less for storage. Ours is only a couple hundred a year…not a lot considering the entire price of IVF. I understand not wanting your kids to “meet” a brother or sister on the street, but the reality is that if you are not attempting to use them, there are many, many infertile couples that would be blessed beyond measure to “adopt” your embryos. IMHO, sharing with your children why you made the decision to adopt out your embryos is easier (and better!) than letting your own, already conceived, embryos go unused.

    And Pablo, when you go through IVF you sign a contract with the clinic agreeing to how your embryos will be used or not used. It would be illegal (though not impossible, I suppose) for them to use them in any manner other than what you have permitted.

    yourlilsis (095089)

  65. Have the babies, JD. Or be very certain that you will never wonder what they would have been if you had.

    I’m sorry, my friend. You asked.

    nk (189a81)

  66. No

    timb (a83d56)

  67. Pablo @ 60 – They have to have our consent to do so. There are literally mountains of releases and waivers. Practically, we would never have any way of knowing.

    fuck off, timmah.

    nk – Thanks.

    Amphipolis – thanks for that link.

    timmah – When I want you to speak, I will tell you to. Until then, STFU.

    JD (41e64f)

  68. This man seems obsessed with sexually-related issues, reproduction issues, and the like. I truly feel he is not mentally healthy and the problem seems to be increasing.

    bio mom (a1e126)

  69. nk @ #65, if an attempt is made to have babies from the embryos the odds are low that it would be successful, as they always are with IVF. Even under optimal conditions the success per implantation is well below than 50%. Many couples go through multiple implantation cycles before they’re successful. And given that each implantation uses multiple embryos, the embryo to live birth ratio is much lower than that.

    They would represent the hope of having a child to someone who chooses to use them, but I wouldn’t put it in the “you’ll wonder what they would have been” frame because they don’t represent the promise of having a child.

    Pablo (99243e)

  70. That said, it still represents the best chance they have for survival. Life is fragile – 50% is a lot better than the perpetual freezer, and probably no worse than any other fertilized egg.

    I would wonder, if it was my child.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  71. Somewhere along his fatuous way, AS came to understand that “real” pro-lifers eschew amniocentesis, that is can have no benefit for them other than opportunity and excuse for a bad outcome.

    FWIW, sepsis is one of the potential complications, and it can kill the mother along with the baby. However, the risk is low, and the benefits not exclusive to persons, like myself, who would probably pull the plug on any pregnancy coming up serious lemons.

    In fact, it can prepare mother, family and medical staff for problems and indirectly save the health and life of a mother and/or baby by revealing potential complications and enabling optimized preparation and diagnosis and treatment of those complications.

    Stupid Andrew.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  72. One can be committed to not aborting a Downs child and still want to know if one’s child has Downs. A quiet abortion would not have exposed anything, but a live child certainly does. Which is precisely what angers them so much.

    I really don’t get this obsessive and hostile questioning of Palin’s motives in having a routine and multi-purpose test – as if anyone could ever really know what another’s motives were. I guess it all comes down to the power of suggestion.

    And there sits Andrew, never facing the possibility of bearing a disabled child, never experiencing the weight of responsibility most relationships take for granted, sitting in judgment.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  73. His argument, stupid as it is, is that a hard-core pro-lifer always skips testing; QED, Palin’s some kind of phony.

    Just who does he think that kind of speculaton gets traction with? More proof that his HCV/HIV combo has wrecked his already defective cognition.

    Incidentally, Andrew does have experience with reproduction. He brings lots of happy, healthy, well-cared for virii into the world.

    SarahW (a6e80b)

  74. JD-

    Just now saw your post, I don’t know about the organization linked to but I would have informed you of “Snow Flake” babies.

    Of course it is your decision. And as you know, if you give them to another couple you are giving the possibility of life to the fertilized eggs. Whether the procedure results in 0, 1, or 2 living children can’t be known.

    On the legal side of this, I know some couples have tried to legally adopt the fertilized ovum/embryo which touches off a firestorm of issues about precedents when a fertilized egg is given the same standing in an adoption procedure as a fully developed child. The alternative, of course, is to treat the fertilized egg as a piece of property in a business transaction.

    To Icy Truth- thank you for the compliment. I hope it was helpful to Neo.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  75. I will risk another comment.

    In my years of work as a doctor, I did not often (if ever) know someone from the “gay” side of life who didn’t have traumatic childhood experiences that “helped” things develop in that direction.

    While I agree with little of Andrew Sullivan’s political and religious views, and I certainly think he is off base in several ways going after Gov. Palin, if he is indeed ill I would wish that “his ear is opened by his affliction”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  76. I think that if there ever was an accurate study of the childhoods of gay people, this “50% environment, 50% genetic” crap would disappear. If gay people were to be more honest and open, the revelation of how many of them were physically and/or sexually abused as children would be very illuminating.

    Icy Truth (db1823)

  77. Q: How Many Republicans does it take to screw in a light bulb.

    A: Republicans don’t screw in light bulbs, they only screw in airport bathrooms.

    stu (a7f174)

  78. Isn’t amazing to see how the Republican Marxists are already at work. How many more financial institutions are the American people going to own? We already have Sarah “Karl Marx” Palin and her redistribution of wealth from the American people to her AIP “alasken nationalist party” groupies. No wonder she is “drill, baby, drill” She wants to steal the wealth of hard working American.

    stu (a7f174)

  79. BTW…all this abortion or not abortion stuff is sooo lame. Its a damn baby…if it lives good, if it doesn’t make it…oh well. Nature has spontaneous abortions all the time. Guess what…no baby. Dead. Gone. Not the end of the world…lets not waste anymore time on this lame old arguement that wastes time and resources. oh and before anyone says it “yeah, yeah, maybe my mom should have had an abortion.” my feelings are hurt now.

    stu (a7f174)

  80. oh damn….I just got struck my lightning for that post.

    stu (a7f174)

  81. You feelings are hurt WHY? because your mom already used that line on you?

    Icy Truth (b28aae)

  82. Oh man…my mom is an abortion doctor…don’t pick on her…hmmm….is she an abortion dr. or a junkie this week?

    stu (a7f174)

  83. Who the hell said she was a doctor?

    Icy Truth (db6433)

  84. Icy Truth….her doctor was Tommy Lee.

    stu (a7f174)

  85. Don’t try to get on my good side now.

    Icy Truth (db6433)

  86. OK, who took a stu on the rug? I swear, you people are pigs.

    Pablo (99243e)

  87. Stewie: If I choose to make stool in my pants right now, you’re the only one here to change me. What do you think of that, hmm?
    Brian: I’m not going to change you.
    Stewie: What?
    Brian: I said, I’m not going to change you.
    Stewie: You can’t be serious. Well, what if I make a fudgie? Well, I just won’t. I just won’t that’s all. I just won’t. Blast! I just did.

    Icy Truth (ef009a)

  88. Icy Truth-

    Memory is a funny thing. An emotionally terrifying experience can either be remembered quite vividly, often inserting itself into one’s train of thought inappropriately, or sealed off and powerfully “kept under wraps”. I’ve known patients who’ve said, “My parents were good to me, except for all of the beatings”, or, “the one thing that really bothered me was being locked in that dark basement”, and they’ve really meant it, not realizing they’re still trying to minimize, rationalize and make sense out of horrendous experiences. Another patient had told me that he had no history of any emotional problems. After a few years of caring for him, I learned from his mother that he had a psychotic break at about 10 years old when his father died. He wandered the city for days “looking for my dad”, eventually placed in a residential facility for months. When I asked him about it he replied, “Oh yeah. Didn’t I ever tell you about that? They would wrap me up in a cold wet sheet when I was causing trouble, and I would just laugh and laugh…”

    That is not to disagree with you in any way, Icy, just a caveat that even if the accurate study was done, some “honestly” would claim they never had any traumatic experiences.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  89. I am so woefully under-read lately…Who the F*** is Andrew Sullivan and why does he matter?

    paul from fl (4dd8c4)

  90. OK, have read some links to his crap. Now where do I go to get that time credited back to my life?
    What a waste of time and skin.yeeeesh

    paul from fl (4dd8c4)

  91. ” However, it is freaking expensive to keep them, and not really cost effective. Any suggestions? Other choices?

    Comment by JD — 9/17/2008 @ 9:34 am ”


    peedoffamerican (389cf6)

  92. stu 80 –

    All this murder or not murder stuff is sooo lame. It’s a damn person. If it lives…good, if it doesn’t make it…oh well. People die of natural causes all the time.

    According to Joe Biden, a fetus is as much a human life as a convenience store clerk. I guess if a few convenience store clerks are murdered it is no big deal. Dead. Gone. Not the end of the world.

    Let’s not waste any more time on this lame old argument that innocent people should be protected.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

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