Sullivan Has Been Comparing Palin to Eagleton — He May Have a Point But He’s Looking At The Wrong Party
[Posted by WLS]
One of Sullivan’s more crackpot ideas over at The Atlantic are a dozen or more posts on the prospect that Palin will be forced to withdraw from the ticket a la Thomas Eagleton in 1972. Randy-Andy started banging this drum before Palin’s speech — and things changed that day — and before the Obama lead in the polls cratered following the end of the GOP convention showing the power of Palin’s selection. But it’s possible that Randy-Andy may turn out to be correct – except he may be looking at the wrong party.
How long can Obama continue to keep Biden in the VP slot as it becomes more and more apparent that the Palin selection has fundamentally altered the race, and he’s now headed for a 3-5 point defeat rather than the coronation that everyone on the left (and many on the right) had expected?
What would shake up this race some more? How about Biden stepping down and Hillary taking his place? Because it’s with white women that Obama is going to lose this race. In the latest ABC/WaPo poll, Obama’s +8 lead among white women voters going into the conventions has now become a -12 deficit after the conventions. The great “Hillary myth” of the press is that women voters who supported Hillary did so only because they agreed with all her views across the policy spectrum, including views on subjects like abortion and equal pay. The idea was that “Hillary voters” would not jump to McCain simply because he chose Palin, especially given how “extreme” Palin was on social issues. Well, chalk that one up as one more example of bogus “conventional wisdom.”
I suspect many women supported Hillary because of what her campaign represented, not simply because of what her policy positions were. No question that the bulk of her supporters were die-hard liberals who immediately switched to Obama, but all 18 million??? No way. Before McCain selected Palin we knew from polling that 25% of Hillary voters were saying they would vote for McCain. Was this supposed to be only the men who supported her?
Lets look at the simple arithmetic of this issue:
In 2004, Kerry came out of the conventions trailing Bush among women 48-43. By mid-October, he had reversed that standing and led Bush among women by 50-40 according to this NYT story.
CNN exit polling showed that on election day, Kerry beat Bush among women by a vote of only 51-48.
There were 121 million votes cast in 2004, with 53% from women — or about 63 million votes. But 41% of all votes were from white women — or about 49.5 million.
If you move the percentage of white women voting for McCain from -8 to +12 (and using the 2004 vote totals as a reference point), that 20 point shift is nearly 10 million votes.
Did Palin bring McCain all 10 million votes??
No – at least not yet. But if this new narrative of the race takes root with white women, i.e., the suburban and small town soccer moms, Obama is dead meat.
What is the one thing he could do to alter this fundamental change? Dump the dull and uninspiring old white male Biden, and put Hillary on the ticket.
While Hillary had been the VP selection from the start, the democractic would have been hard to beat. Picking Palin at that point would have seem like a copy cat idea, and would not have looked good.
However, dumping Biden at this point for the much better ticket of obama/hillary would seem to be totally crass and probably alienate a substantial part of the swing voters. While it would bring back a large chunk of the hillary block, they would lose a much larger block due to the flip flops and seriously erode his credibility. (I was always for the surge, I was always for hillary, I was always for…)Joe - Dallas (70513b) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:09 pm
Is it allowed to change the ticket after the convention? What are the rules?aunursa (1b5bad) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:14 pm
The problem is that one of Obama’s theme claims is that he is a font of good judgment.
His selection of a VP candidate is the largest, most visible, and most important decision he’s made so far. If he reverses it in just one month, he’s shot his claim to good judgment full of holes. Any gains that might come from picking a better VP candidate would be lost in the form of loss-of-confidence in the ticket leader, Obama himself.
That’s assuming Hillary would be willing to take the job, and I bet she wouldn’t. If Obama dumps Biden and selects some other woman to take his place, then it makes Obama look like a me-too, as well as calling his judgment into question even further.Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:17 pm
Aunursa, the precedent was that the VP candidate resigns from the ticket, the Pres candidate “reluctantly” accepts the resignation, and then picks someone else.
That’s what happened with Thomas Eagleton in 1972.Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:18 pm
The irony is that if this were to happen at this point, I imagine many female voters would see it as a cynical attempt to lure them back based solely on the candidate’s gender.aunursa (1b5bad) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:20 pm
I recognize there is no good option here. But if the narrative that is now in place doesn’t change over the next 10 days, Obama is going to begin to take on the stench of a loser, and his anticipated turnout advantage is going to evaporate.
If the polls come around, and he regains a small lead, then it’ll be hand-to-hand combat to the end. But if he drops 5 or more points behind McCain, he’ll find it harder to raise money, and McCain’s support will begin to solidify.
So, he can be a 5 point loser who stayed with his original judgment, or he can venture into the unknown by doing SOMETHING to try and shake up the race.WLS (26b1e5) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:23 pm
And while he might not then be a loser in the classical sense, he would remain, as always, a complete tool.Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:29 pm
Well then that leaves one other choice, Obama could resign, and let Hillary have the nomination.Joe (d737be) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:29 pm
Isn’t it possible that despite press reports to the contrary, HRC let it be known at or prior to the Denver convention that she wouldn’t fight BHO on the floor, and instead would “unify” the party in exchange for some help on campaign debt write off? The HRC supporters, many of them, hate the O camp. Hill herself ain’t too fond of him. But she’s a political opportunist (is that redundant?), and perhaps she actually turned him down (she’s been “vetted” for 20 years, ever since the Rose Law Firm).
It would explain Joe Biden’s almost shocked expressions in some of his first public appearances after BHO tabbed him. He said at one of them, “I can honestly tell you that I did not, as one of my great aspirations in life, seek the Vice Presidency.” Biden doesn’t seem at all happy to be there. They had him in such hotspots as Kalispell, Montana on a Sunday afternoon yesterday. Biden was probably one of the last guys to think that BHO would actually be THAT stupid to pick him.Jimwriter (72535d) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:36 pm
Unless Sullivan is some final stage of derangement, it can’t be escaping his attention that that his histrionics have not endangered Sarah Palin in the slightest. In fact, quite the opposite has happened.
So, assuming Sullivan actually takes any of this seriously, I’ll call it Palin’s Revenge — the sweet knowledge that your enemies are drowning in a sewer of their own making.
So, despite the fact I never bother reading anything Sullivan has to write, I can only encourage him to continue his feverish, half-mad attack on Sarah Palin and her entire family.
Please, do continue, Mr. Sullivan.
If anybody’s job should be in danger it is whatever job Sullivan holds. Apparently, The Atlantic, along with most of the mainstream media, gave up any pretense of professionalism long ago. The trouble for people like Sullivan now is this: most people are wise to it.Arnold (1a3b0c) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:43 pm
That help consists of a button near the bottom of his campaign website homepage.
Some help.Icy Truth (a7ead4) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:44 pm
She won’t take the VP slot now. The Clintons are happy to let Obama lose so Hillary can get the 2012 nomination. If Obama wins this year, she can’t really run until 2016.kaf (737eb0) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:46 pm
I can’t imagine Biden agreeing to step down! If the trends hold, Obama has no good options. It will be great entertainment to watch him flailing.equitus (775e65) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:51 pm
Dumping Biden in midstream would look like a desperation move no matter how they tried to frame his departure. It’d be the kiss of death for Obama’s campaign. The same would’ve been true for McCain if Palin had tanked. If things get that desperate I don’t see Hillary wanting to sign up to be part of a sinking ship since she still has her eye on 2012.
Like it or not, he’s stuck with Biden. And after watching a video of one of Palin’s Alaska gubernatorial race debates I think she’s going to filet him and eat his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.Randy R (c6f42e) — 9/8/2008 @ 5:55 pm
This is interesting: Sullivan’s blog has gone dark. No posts at all today. (He’s been averaging about 50 posts per day for previous week.)Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:02 pm
You’re all wrong – the perfect candidate’s just waiting for The Messiah to look into his soul, and realize the error of his ways. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the heroine of all pinched – faced harpies everywhere, Nancy Pelosi!Dmac (e639cc) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:04 pm
Mr. Den Beste, that’s very interesting. I wonder if he’ll be back or if it’s just a time out.
(It could be voluntary, of course, but a girl’s got to dream.)MamaAJ (788539) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:09 pm
I saw that about Sullivan early this morning.
I wonder if he’s taking a day off to decompress after all he’s put himself through over the past 14 days.
More likely he’s attending some event with a bunch of left-wing nutroots who are trying to compose their takedown strategy over the next 60 days.
His/their desperation to carry Obama across the finish line is truly amazing.WLS (26b1e5) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:11 pm
Nobody gave Sullivan any money did they? After all, if you did, he could be jetting away to the Bahamas.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:14 pm
If Obama goes the Eagleton route, look for a “medical” reason for Slo’ Joe to give up the slot. Perhaps something about the brain aneurysms he had some years ago. A doctor will tell him he needs to shy away from the high stress position of a VP candidate, and Obama will reluctantly accept his resignation. (Of course, this won’t stop Slo’ Joe from continuing to run for re-election to the Senate, putting the lie to the reason for his resignation.)
This way, Obama garners sympathy and then trys to get Hillary to fill the position.Bill M (5e9a70) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:15 pm
WLS, every time in the past that Sullivan has taken a break, he’s always said so. Nothing this time, though.
And one of the very last posts he made was an obsequious suckup to Palin, which praised her mightily.Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:19 pm
I used to like Sully quite a bit. But about the time he moved to The Atlantic — and I mean no disrespect to The Atlantic, I just want to point roughly when I think the change occurred — he has gone off the rails.
Did he break up with his boyfriend or something? Because he’s in Bill Maher territory now. SOMETHING happened. The Sully we knew has disappeared.Viktor Nehring (6c107f) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:21 pm
I can just see it now…Biden collapses on stage in the middle of a speech…but then opens one eye to peak at the crowd…MamaAJ (788539) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:22 pm
Not sure Hillary wants Biden’s spot: if she goes down w/Obama, it might be her last hurrah, and Obama’s been looking real bad of late, with more scandals yet to be aired (if only in McCain ads). Does she wanna be tarred with those?
But if she lets him implode without her, she gets another kick at the can in 4 years.
BTW, are there any deadline dates for ballot-printing & such? Are we near them yet?ras (fc54bb) — 9/8/2008 @ 6:55 pm
What’s that sound?Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 9/8/2008 @ 7:55 pm
Biden’s heart murmur forcing him to withdraw.
A noble act for the Democratic Party:
Obama and Biden graciously resign their candidacy.
Hillary is “nominated” with her choice of v.p..
This would enshrine Obama and Biden with noblesse.
Perhaps their best option.
OBAMA-BIDEN: Another Bridge Too Far.Rad-onky (8ee46c) — 9/8/2008 @ 8:34 pm
That’s right Andrew – drive Palin out of the race. Turn her into a martyr with both evangelicals _and_ women.
Good thinking…..ian (f0623e) — 9/8/2008 @ 8:35 pm
There’s no chance that Obama would jump on a grenade for the benefit of the Democratic Party. He wouldn’t mind if anyone else does so for his benefit, but he’s not going to sacrifice himself.Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 9/8/2008 @ 8:35 pm
A suggestion: Instead of calling it an Eagleton Scenario…let’s give it a much more damning name:
Link is here.Natalie (08d9f5) — 9/8/2008 @ 8:39 pm
I don’t think there’s any way for Biden to step down gracefully at this point. So, if the world were as dark as some of the nutroots seem to think, obviously some of Obama’s handlers would need to arrange for a fatal accident.
Not going to happen, but it would make a good movie.Owlish (7aadef) — 9/8/2008 @ 9:03 pm
What jumps out at me about all this just how gob-smackingly incompetent the Democrats have been.
They had Hillary who looked to be a strong general election candidate with a picture perfect VP candidate also in the race. The had a divided GOP with a candidate actively despised by much of the base headed by a president despised by nearly everyone. They had an unpopular war and soaring gas prices to pin on the incumbent party.
Somehow they’ve managed to throw away all these advantages and now- as the crabapple on this shinola sundae- their VP choice is looking like another major mistake.
Can someone please explain why anyone would want this bunch to run the country, or even a Dairy Queen?Xennady (36be73) — 9/8/2008 @ 9:18 pm
You have to see the world through Sullivan’s eyes: Gay marriage is the supreme Goal of all mankind and all decisions are to be judged by their relative facilitation of The Goal. Furthermore, no tactics are off limits in the course of achieving The Goal. It’s like Stalinism only gayer.kyleb (d00f2d) — 9/8/2008 @ 9:23 pm
Kind of a lavender fascism?Eric Blair (36c1a9) — 9/8/2008 @ 9:26 pm
President Clinton DOES want to have a talk with Sen. Obama…
*cough*Vince Foster*coughcough*Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/8/2008 @ 9:47 pm
Biden should be able to beat a corrupt, lying, book burning creationist.
and I dont hide like the lyin GOP does. HERE – firstname.lastname@example.org (04803c) — 9/8/2008 @ 10:02 pm
I think I know what would help Obama’s chances.
Since PMSNBC demoted Olbermann from it’s election coverage anchor, I would be willing to bet that Sullivan would leap at the chance to fill in. He done a lot of television appearances.
What could go wrong?daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 9/8/2008 @ 10:06 pm
Oh they’re so cute right before their world-view is crushed under the ponderous weight of reality…Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/8/2008 @ 10:44 pm
I’d debate Nick on the subject of Palin, but I somehow doubt he will rise to the challenge here…
Though if he should be willing, I would gladly do so…Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/8/2008 @ 10:49 pm
Obama is meeting with Clinton to get an idea on how to make inconvenient people “disappear” — you know, like that Foster guy.wls (969303) — 9/8/2008 @ 10:51 pm
Boy, wish I’d thought of that…
Over an hour ago…
At comment #34…
🙂Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/8/2008 @ 11:06 pm
I’m not the very smartest guy who ever posted, that would be Den Beste or Patterico, but so far all these attacks on Palin have fizzled, badly. I mean the list of books that Palin is supposed to have tried to ban includes books that were not written, then.Peter (c36902) — 9/8/2008 @ 11:10 pm
The photoshops of Palin in a bikini? I’ve never really been to Alaska, that airplane stop on my way overseas hardly counts, but there seem to be two seasons in Alaska, Snow and Mosquito.
So, suppose Sully or this Nick guy actually FINDS something real? By now, would anyone believe it? I wouldn’t. Too many lies already.
Posted on Sept 6
If the Palin factor continues to crush Obama’s hopes, (“I can’t believe I’m losing to this idiot/woman!”) how long will it be before we see the Big-O forced into an “Eagleton” in order to bump Biden off the ticket, and call Hillary in from the sidelines? Not that it would happen, mind you. Just spitballin’ here. Just into the What-If alternate universe, ya know.
I mean it’s not as if the strain of campaigning would suddenly bring a previously unknown health concern about Biden to the fore…. Naw, that would be just too cynical.
Besides, Biden is not only as healthy as an ox, as a Senator he’s got the best health care your taxes can buy.vanderleun (fc64a7) — 9/8/2008 @ 11:24 pm
nick doesn’t hide, yet 90 minutes later he’s nowhere to be found.Icy Truth (a7ead4) — 9/8/2008 @ 11:26 pm
That’s the conclusion I reached on Saturday, too.49erDweet (57617c) — 9/8/2008 @ 11:40 pm
Why should Hillary take the number two spot, when if she sits back and lets McCain win, she can run and probably win in 2012?tioedong (7d346d) — 9/9/2008 @ 2:31 am
Sullivan “decompressing,” eh?
When was that Obama fundraiser George Clooney was hosting supposed to take place?
They’re probably all partying in Obama’s strongest demographic — Europe.Koblog (b64bdd) — 9/9/2008 @ 4:59 am
Hillary is way too smart to sign up as VP to what may well be a losing ticket. Should McCain win, she is positioned as the strongest possible nominee to run against him in 2012. BO would be out of the picture. Parties seldom nominate the guy who lost last time, especially to go against the one who beat them.Walter Ronten (30e043) — 9/9/2008 @ 5:23 am
Even if BO wins, she is in good shape for a 2016 run. Normally, the VP of a successful president is the nominee, but Biden will be 74 years old then and will, frankly, still be Joe Biden. She may even run an insurgency campaign in 2012 should BO win and stink as president.
Have you ever seen the documentary where the turkeys are being force fed to make them fat for Thanksgiving? This is how I feel about the media trying to make us accept Sarah Palin in spite of her enormous controversies. I don’t trust the woman. A pretty face is not going to keep us out of wars. In fact, she seems to like them, much like McCain. A pretty face is not going to make our economy better when she thinks Bush is right. It is a really ugly situation.Johanna (4a66dd) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:06 am
Note: Hillary! has not been vetted in one important post-2000 area that I read was a deal breaker on her side: donations to the “William J. Clinton Presidential Center and Park” AKA his presidential library, foundation HQ, etc. etc.
E.g. it has been rumored that more than one medium to high six figure donation to it was matched with a presidential pardon, most notoriously Marc Rich, but all that is as far as I know still at the rumor level (“Democratic sources”).Harold (82421e) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:06 am
Name two. I dare you.
Two that have a basis in fact, not two that were made up.
So you haven’t heard Sen. Obama say that, should be be in a recession, he would KEEP Bush’s tax cuts?
Boy, sure sounds like Obama thinks Bush was right…Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:13 am
Are you freaking kidding me? Trying to feed us Palin? More like trying to eat her.
They have reporters up in Alaska at this very moment trying to find some dirt and save their pick (0Bama).James Stephenson (d1acb6) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:20 am
Nick .. numbnuts .. don’t post real information publically on the internet.
Holy dumbass, get off my side of the issuesi like america (f4c1e0) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:25 am
Johanna – hysterical often?JD (5f0e11) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:25 am
I’m telling you, the loonies on the left do more to help republicans more than anything any republican could ever do…Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:32 am
I am amazed that anyone talks about the “Eagleton option” as though it were a viable political strategy. It’s not, and Eagleton himself is the proof. Does anyone seriously think that the 1972 election could have possibly gone worse for McGovern if Eagleton had remained on the ticket? Invoking the “Eagleton option” as a strategy for winning elections makes about as much sense as invoking “the Bork option” as a way to get on to the Supreme Court.
All this assumes, of course, that the goal of an election is to win rather than to go down in a blaze of electoral glory. The “Eagleton option” is a brilliant strategy for the latter objective, I suppose, so in a way it makes sense to hear talking heads on each side of the aisle recommending it to the other.Xrlq (b71926) — 9/9/2008 @ 7:05 am
Heh. I’m happy to keep him on your side of the issues, of course, but just to make things fair maybe we can arrange a dumbass-only debate between this guy and, say, j curtis or Dumptaster. You gotta admit that would be fun to watch, even if all the non-dumbasses in the bleachers end up rooting for the other guy’s dumbass to win.Xrlq (b71926) — 9/9/2008 @ 7:09 am
I do not think Americans will put Palin one heart from the White House.When a person goes into their voting booth they will realise Palin is not qualified to be Vice President or President and vote for Obama.Palins family and their loose moral code bothers me more than anything.RONNIE (db2c54) — 9/9/2008 @ 7:20 am
Again with the “one heart away” thing…
You realize she has at least the experiance that Obama has, so that if SHE isn’t qualified, then HE isn’t qualified? Right?
God you people… So cute you are…Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/9/2008 @ 7:27 am
Fact remains that this election is b/w Obama and McCain, not Obama and Palin, and not a popularity contest. Don’t get fooled into the hype… Obama and McCain’s stances on the issues at hand are what matters and how the educated and informed voters will decide this election.
So, if you want to elect your leader on how they view the *issues*, this website is a good start:http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/news/0806/gallery.election_issues/index.htmlJane (c10ac0) — 9/9/2008 @ 7:33 am
I always laugh when the blowhards reinforce their sexism and identity politics by saying they’re insulted because Palin isn’t a replacement for HRC. Who said she was? I guess it’s not possible that she could be the VP nominee in her own right? There’s your progress and insigth into their mindset.bandit (36701c) — 9/9/2008 @ 8:09 am
you think that was my real email address?
its my spam catcher. you ARE a moron.
and that I can get back here in 30 minutes for YOUR convenience?
Debate what? facts? that the Governor used her office for her sister, lied about not supporting the Bridge to Nowhere, wanted A book banned, and wanted creationism taught in classroom?
All documented facts – just google.
But If you want to debate Should books be banned, creationism be taught, its ok to use offie on behalf of family, Bring it on!nick (04803c) — 9/9/2008 @ 8:41 am
*sigh* So actually using facts is something your against? Great. THIS is gonna be a fun day…
Tell you what, little nicky… How about you post some fact sto support your claims, hmm? That IS how it works, you know. You make a statement, you back it up, and then the civil debate begins.
So, where would you like to start? Your pick…Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/9/2008 @ 9:00 am
Drat…Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:15 pm
Little Nicky has been Googling himself for the past 10 hours.Icy Truth (8731ef) — 9/9/2008 @ 6:21 pm
some of have real work to do supporting the troops
while you cowards just spend al ltime blogging.
I had this “side” before you were born moron, so you scram!
I posted the facts, and SNopes and Google will give you more.nick (04803c) — 9/9/2008 @ 11:52 pm
Nick, How about the fact that Obama received a sweetheart real estate deal from convicted felon Tony Rezko? How about Obama securing millions for his wife’s employer (University of Chicago) and then her salary magically doubling? I would rather have a candidate that was concerned about children reading an inappropriate book than one who supported a bill to teach sex ed to kindergartners. Palin is a creationist? What the hell is Obama, no one knows. What we do know us that he went to a church that preached hatred and black separatism. But you see, you can’t ask B.O. about his convictions because he is going to say whatever he thinks you want to hear no matter what his values are or what the past shows.Brent F (e8f3cb) — 9/11/2008 @ 12:53 am
The left and Barry strongly underestimate the voting power of American’s who cling to “religion and guns”. He needs a history lesson because this country was founded on religious freedom and liberated by citizens with guns. The bottom line is that the left wants to take the power from the people because that makes people dependant on the government.
How the hell is Barry going to lower everyone’s taxes yet finance college for everyone, give everyone health care, etc.? How ’bout I pay for my own kid’s college or they get loans and I’ll buy my own insurance. In exchange, I would like the government to do the things I can’t like maintain a strong military and encourage hard work and the American dream.
Do we not judge people by the friends they keep? Obama is the spawn of the corrupt Chicago political Machine. Barry’s friends: Bill Ayers (hates America), Rev.Wright (hates America and whites), Michelle Obama (not real found of America or whitey either), Tony Rezko, Richard Daley, Todd Stroger……
the owners rejected previous offers as too low, but I guess you cant read either?
salar ydoubling? illegal? no!
and no investigation WHILE PALIN is being investigated!
and so was Mccain for Keating 5 and found to have bad jdugement!
I point out hasnick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:12 am
you are a lying MORON with no honor.nick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:14 am
Ok, how about…
The trooped has drunk booze while driving (driving a marked police car, no less), tasered an 11 year old, started fights, abused his badge, poached, and threatened to kill a man… You think this dude should be a cop??
In NO budget did she have ANY money for the Bridge. None. Not a single one. Not one penny. How is that supporting the bridge?
What do you have besides the librarian’s OPINION on the conversation to base your belief that then-Mayor Palin wanted a book banned? Please tell me you are basing it on the list that’s gone around the ‘net…
She has publicly said that she does NOT think that creationism should be taught in schools, but that if a student brings it up, it should be a valid topic of debate. Why is debate bad? I thought learning involved an open discussion of ideas.Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:23 am
Then explain how Obama’s even LOWER bid was accepted…
Yes, but rather amazing that it didn’t hapen until right after Obama won the election to the US Senate, and the the Hosp. recieved a very large pile of federal money…
And people just don’t get their salary doubled. Not all in one go. It just doesn’t happen.
Christ, I don’t even know where this came from…
Would you mind sobering up and typing it out in english?Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:26 am
I don’t think there’s any way for Biden to step down gracefully at this point. So, if the world were as dark as some of the nutroots seem to think, obviously some of Obama’s handlers would need to arrange for a fatal accident.
Not going to happen, but it would make a good movie.
Comment by Owlish — 9/8/2008 @ 9:03 pm
#1, Cermak, was shot and #2, Dan Ryan, died in an auto accident and #3, Richard J. Daley, started a dynasty in Chicago. The Daleys need no lessons from the Clintons.nk (d681ef) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:28 am
And, oh yeah, the other #3, Adlai Stevenson, was set up to look like a fool against Dwight E. Eisenhower.
Obama, Mayor Daley is not batting you for a home-run. He’s batting you out of play.nk (d681ef) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:33 am
the hospital paid her , not Obama, ask them
Obama offered $1.3 million on Jan. 15, 2005; $1.5 million on Jan. 21; and $1.65 million on Jan. 23
why are you so fucking stupid that you cant figure out it went up 2 times before accepted!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a_9sOMpy91Js&refer=usnick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:01 pm
nick, clean up your mouth.
And by the way, the “bad judgment” nonsense from the Senate ethics committee was because they found that McCain, unlike the Democratic Senators invested in the Keating matter, had not broken any Senate rules.
So you need to rethink who you are calling moron.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:04 pm
Riordan told the Tribune that the promotion and salary increase had nothing to do with Obama’s husband becoming a U.S. senator. “She was hired before Barack was Barack,” Riordan said.nick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:10 pm
Well, there you go. Riordan said it was all hunky-dorey. That is good enough for me.JD (6a8c0a) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:14 pm
to Scott Jacobs
Palin said “Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both”
It does NOT say – when a student brings it up!
and you dont teach religion in a science classroom you fucking MORONnick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:14 pm
1 did I say he broke a senate rule?
2 Did I say senator rules are perfect?
it is not nonsense – MCain said himself he did bad.
and tell me another adjective , since poster is beyond plain stupid.nick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:16 pm
“She was hired before Barack was Barack,” Riordan said.
When he was still Barry Soetoro?nk (d681ef) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:17 pm
you didnt see any quotes of her supporting the bridge and photos w t shirts.?
then you are a Fucking moron again.nick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:17 pm
she was not GOVERNOR! so how could she have a budget Genius!
it was murkowskis budget
Is it GOD’s plan for you to be so stupid!nick (04803c) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:18 pm
nick – Can a Governor insert an earmark? How many earmarks has Baracky secured? How many earmarked dollars has Baracky given away? Same for McCain? Biden? How many states have lobbyists to the Federal Government?
Never mind.JD (6a8c0a) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:19 pm
I wonder what other names are associated with Nick’s IP address …JD (6a8c0a) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:20 pm
I wonder what other names are associated with Nick’s IP address …
Psych-wing patient #___ must be among them.nk (d681ef) — 9/11/2008 @ 8:27 pm
Nutty Nick is your typical left wing looney. Everything the messiah does is O.K. If Sara Palin’s husband was offered a seat on the board of an oil company after she was elected what would Nick say? But using your hubby’s influence for personal gain is o.k. if your Mrs.O. I suppose Obama wasn’t telling a little fib when he said that without the events in Selma (1964) that his parents would have never been able to get together and have Barry (Born in 1961!). But it sounds good so hey what the hell. McCain’s morals are solid and have been since he let other soldiers leave the Hanoi Hilton before him. Palin says what she believes in and sticks to it. Barry’s crazy ass church, his flip floping on almost every issue and most troubling his association with TERRORISTS and radical freaks prety much tells everything there is to tell about where Obama really stands.Brent F (e8f3cb) — 9/12/2008 @ 3:49 am
Gee, the lying marxist leaning (admitted) coke head (admitted)or the experienced, patriotic and moral war hero? I’m very proud of both the children of McCain and Palin serving our country.Who would be more concerned with our soldier’s welfare? The guy who bypassed the military hospital in Berlin to go shopping? Whatver they were preaching in Palin’s church it sure wasn’t “God damn America”. And I would like to imaginge if McCain (or Palin for that matter) ever met Bill Ayers they would knock his punk ass out!
NK- ask Riordan, I dont know riordan
JD – you are dumb if you didnt know the answer
and Palin ahd MORE per capita than Obama
and Obama stopped earmarks BEFORE she did!
and you are NOT good enough to address him by first name
I love AD hominem attacks – its shows you are bankrupt of ideasnick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:32 am
Evidence of this assertion, please.
nick – Can a Governor insert an earmark? How many earmarks has Baracky secured? How many earmarked dollars has Baracky given away? Same for McCain? Biden? How many states have lobbyists to the Federal Government?JD (6a8c0a) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:39 am
Palin taxes olil companies – but I guess you are too stupid to know that.
you are too stupid to understand literary refernce.
you are a FUCKING MORON so I can ignore the rest of the rantings of you the racist.nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:43 am
In his short time in the Senate, Barack has gone for almost $1 million in earmarks a DAY!
I think he wins that race…Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:44 am
McCain’s morals? CHEATING on his WIFE!
he was A pow? tell me how many POWs cheated on their crippled wive ?
DONT YOU DARE TELL ME MCCAN HAS MORALS!nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:44 am
Awwww… You’re so cute when you’re spitting man, Nicky…
*pinches his cheek* It’s ok… Honest… We know you’re just lacking in actual intelligent comments, so you resort to swearing. We understand.
You can’t help it. You’re just a bit slow.Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:46 am
McCain has morals.
And honor.Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:46 am
What a lovely tantrum. Someone needs his diaper changed.Icy Truth (2dbd61) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:48 am
Palin per capita is many times more than Obama
SJ – the figure of speech does not mean retell your lies but to back them up,
which you didnt do ,but that was expected of a bloody idiot like younick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:06 pm
You are a slimebag, nick. McCain has good excuses for his failings, you don’t. You are just slime.
Your foul mouth does not make up for your vapid statements.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:13 pm
Just like his hero, Nick gets angry and mean when he is backed into a corner. How is Selma a literary reference? Obama is saying the events in Selma,Alabama allowed his parents to get together. This is a convienient LIE! The events of Selma happened before his birth!!!!BrentF (e6db0a) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:52 pm
Please answer how you can support a guy who (until it became unpopular)had an advisor (Wright)who said American deserved 9/11? How can he have had day trips and friendly outings with a man (Ayers) who has recently taken a photo op standing on the American flag and bombed his own country? Please don’t answer with questions or examples of what someone other Republican has done, just answer how you can support a radical man who has proven he hates his country by his actions, words and associations.
P.S. feel free to rant and rave and call names like a true looney leftist.
there is no excuse for abandoning a crippled wife so you can fuck younger healthy women!
now we know what kind of bloody PIGS you are.nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:56 pm
Selmas is the symbol for the whole civil rights movement that your RACIST PARENTS did not support!nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:57 pm
Wanna talk earmarks? I drive by a wooden gazebo in a vacant lot in Chicago everyday.It is on a blighted block and is surrounded by a cyclone fence, so it san’t even be used. Its value about $3000. However, the great community organizer extorted $150,000 from the state government to develop this project. Talk about a bridge to nowhere. I’ll take a picture with my phone and submit a link tomorrow.BrentF (e6db0a) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:58 pm
day trips, outings, Iguess you were there and took photos?nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 6:59 pm
nick, you know my parents were racist? It is a shame you are not here in front of me to say that.
By the way, nick, if you think that having the crap beat out of you daily for five years isn’t going to result in some problems that will strain a marriage, I suggest you volunteer to try.
Meanwhile, you need to wash your mouth out with soap and grow up.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:02 pm
I’m not pleased with John Edwards’ behavior either.DRJ (7568a2) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:02 pm
DRJ, that is way too subtle for nick to grasp.Icy Truth (c9b193) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:05 pm
Well, of course, Icy Truth, DRJ did not use enough profanity. nick will have to have it translated.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:07 pm
subtel? Guess what MOROn, Edwards is not the one running for president on holier than thou platform. THe liar Mccain is, you want the link?
of course not! you cant handle the truth!
yes racist becasue you are.
we took care of one of Agnews goons once.nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:37 pm
nick, is there a particular reason you feel free to call DRJ a “MOROn” ? Because your kindergarten behavior is not impressing anyone.SPQR (26be8b) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:41 pm
nick is guilty of a TWI — Typing While Intoxicated.
Tee hee . . . “holier than thou”. Bring on your link, Dink!Icy Truth (c9b193) — 9/12/2008 @ 7:59 pm
You’re on FIRE tonight DRJ…
Oh Nicky? Were you gonna answer my replies to you “points”? Or were you just going to swear like a child who thinks mommy and daddy can’t hear?Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:03 pm
when he injects a non sequiter, Yes I call him a moron.nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:17 pm
you Lies are not points SJnick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:18 pm
DRJ is a “she”, Little nicky.Icy Truth (c9b193) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:31 pm
Then refute them. DEBATE you mental-midget!!
I made points, now YOU give counter points… You do know how this works, right?Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:37 pm
Darling Nikki – You are a vile little beast.
RacistJD (5f0e11) — 9/12/2008 @ 8:43 pm
day trips, outings, Iguess you were there and took photos?
Comment by nick — 9/12/2008 @ 6:59 pm
No, I don’t hang with liberals and terrorists. But these outings are by Barry’s own admissions, that is after he was caught lying by saying that Ayers was just a guy from the neighborhood. He also enjoyed dining with his friend the lobby king/convicted felon Tony Rezko and hanging out at his summer home (by his admisson). Don’t be angry with facts, be angry at yourself for falling for a phoney.BrentF (e8f3cb) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:11 pm
earmarks – Obama had $46 per capita and the GOP gov got Alaska $453 per capita
thats the Reform GOP party.nlcatter (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:11 pm
No it is NOT by Obamas admission it is just your paranoia.
just more lies from the harried GOP
Crooked Talk express.
And I knew you had no proof, I dont ask a question unless I know the answer.nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:15 pm
Then debate me, Nick… Without swearing or name-calling… I will even stop insulting you for the duration, and ask everyone else to stop as well.
So… Wanna go?Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:22 pm
Don’t waste your time on this clown, Scott.nk (d681ef) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:27 pm
earmarks – Obama had $46 per capita and the GOP gov got Alaska $453 per capita
— Earmarks per square mile: Alaska = $525, Obama = $10,562
Reform that!Icy Truth (f08c5d) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:32 pm
Does that make me a moroness?DRJ (7568a2) — 9/12/2008 @ 9:53 pm
“there is no excuse for abandoning a crippled wife so you can fuck younger healthy women!”
nick – So are you saying just do it and not try to make excuses? Os that what you recommend? Rly?daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 9/12/2008 @ 10:05 pm
When did McCain EVER try to make excuses for it? Remember at Saddleback when he said it was the great moral failure of his life?Icy Truth (0b82c2) — 9/12/2008 @ 10:15 pm
daley rocks – recommend McCain not say he is the family values man
moral failure = family values? BS!
per sq mile? irrelevant and fucking stupid comparison. tundra doesnt get earmarksnick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 10:53 pm
his statment was mea culpa just as murderers think confessional will get them out of hell.
keating 5 – how many other moral failures is he allowed?
the republic has had ENOUGH of that moral weakling already!nick (04803c) — 9/12/2008 @ 10:55 pm
“per sq mile? irrelevant and fucking stupid comparison. tundra doesnt get earmarks”
buildings roads across them costs money retard.
think at all?daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 9/12/2008 @ 11:03 pm
moral failure = family values? BS!
like BO his brothers keeper = $1 per month in a hut
i’m here all week snickersdaleyrocks (d9ec17) — 9/12/2008 @ 11:06 pm
per sq mile? irrelevant and fucking stupid comparison. tundra doesnt get earmarks
— How about the fact that your (sorry, I meant your schizo personality “nlcatter”) numbers compared Alaska with Obama, without taking into account the other Illinois Senator (Durbin) AND the 19 members of the House of Representatives from Illinois, including Rahm “never EVER met an earmark he wouldn’t take” Emanuel?Icy Truth (6b3828) — 9/12/2008 @ 11:17 pm
they have 1/2 miles than
Illinosi but get 10 times the earmarks
you fucking MORONnick (04803c) — 9/13/2008 @ 8:55 am
and they even try NOT to put highways on tundra
DUH!nick (04803c) — 9/13/2008 @ 8:56 am
his brother said he is doing fine
how waa Crippled wife with 3 kids DOING FINE emotionally when her husband left her for a healthy Younger woman?
I know you all dont belevie in Vows or honor.
Neither does McCain.nick (04803c) — 9/13/2008 @ 8:57 am
Palin got mopre earmarks than Obama
who made none last yearnick (04803c) — 9/13/2008 @ 8:58 am
while Palin continued to rake in the PORK!
From the June 13 Sun-Times article, headlined “Obama’s letters for Rezko”:
As a state senator, Barack Obama wrote letters to city and state officials supporting his political patron Tony Rezko’s successful bid to get more than $14 million from taxpayers to build apartments for senior citizens.
The letters appear to contradict a statement last December from Obama, who told the Chicago Tribune that, in all the years he’s known Rezko, “I’ve never done any favors for him.
WOW!BrentF (e6db0a) — 9/13/2008 @ 12:44 pm
BTW- Over $800,000 of that money went directly in Rezko’s pocket. Rezko and his cronines have returned the favors by sponsoring Barry.BrentF (e6db0a) — 9/13/2008 @ 12:46 pm
his brother said he is doing fine
Doing fine on $12 a year?????BrentF (e6db0a) — 9/13/2008 @ 12:49 pm
Nice, while your brother lives in a masion and claims we need to look out for people in need.
“and they even try NOT to put highways on tundra”
nick – They don’t have tundra in Illinois, you fucking moron!daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 9/13/2008 @ 12:53 pm
Hmmm. There we go with the spelling and grammar issues, again. Normally, I would just think that late night posts like that are due to drinking and posting.
But in the AM?
Just trollery. Notice how easily the troll uses profanity in place of argument, let alone reason?Eric Blair (36c1a9) — 9/13/2008 @ 1:10 pm
its so cool!
that you have access to Obamas bank records and know what he does with his money!nick (04803c) — 9/14/2008 @ 8:47 am
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6333496nick (04803c) — 9/14/2008 @ 8:49 am