Patterico's Pontifications

8/29/2008

I Want My Own Post On Palin — Why The Left-Wing Punditocracy Is Wrong In Comparing Each Candidates’ Choices

Filed under: General — WLS @ 12:52 pm



[Posted by WLS]

Some of the conventional wisdom coming from the dominant media punditocracy is that McCain has really stretched to select a small state governor in office only two years — a state with only 600,000 people –who before that was the mayor of a town of 9000.

The fact is that neither candidate picked a VP on the test that Bush established for himself — is my selection ready to step in as President on our first day in office together if the need arose? 

I’m not suggesting this is the primary test that a candidate must apply — merely that it was clearly the test Bush applied since Cheney came from a state with only 3 electoral votes, while his dominant qualification for the position was 3 decades of executive branch leadership experience.   

Bloviating Joe doesn’t satisfy that test — he’s been overwhelmingly rejected by the voters on the subject.  36 years of speechifying in the Senate is not a substitute for Executive authority — the Senate is the best place to hide from the responsibility of making decisions and then being held accountable.  Its the best place there is for second guessing the leadership shown by people who really lead.

And I think its fair to say that Palin doesn’t satisfy the test.

Then what was the basis for their selection?  Both candidates are guilty of trying to game the electorate — and I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that.  The election is about who controls the gears and levers of the federal executive branch.  Before you can get control of those gears and levers, you’ve got to win the election.  So the candidate’s decision-making should always be guided by that goal.  Otherwise a candidate will become simply another principled first runner-up.

So, from that perspective, which is the better choice?  Here’s where I think the dominant media is simply being boneheaded.

Why did Obama chose Biden?  Because for 7 months Obama has been unable to close the deal with blue-collar working class voters – the kind that gave Hillary Clinton huge margins over him in places like Pennsylvania and Ohio.  These are swing voters, not generally considered to be in the “base” of either party since Reagan wrestled them away from Carter in 1980.

The Obama campaign knew as well as anyone that the only reason he won the nomination was that he out-organized Hillary at the micro-level of electioneering in caucus states — where simply having a few dozen or couple hundred more attendees at a caucus site can dictate the election outcome.   They also know he got annihilated in most of the mass voterr primary states where a good ground game is usually outweighed by candidate stumping and paid media.  And I suspect their polling showed that he lost by huge margins to Clinton among the blue-collar working-class voters in those primary states. 

So he picks Biden on the belief that among all the VP choices — with the exception of Hillary who was DQ’d from the start — he could reach out to those voters on Obama’s behalf.    So, the basis for the Biden pick was a fundamental weakness in Obama’s campaign appeal, one that Obama could not correct himself.

What about Palin?  To whom does she appeal that warranted her pick?

She’s a social conservative so she appeals to the GOP base more than most of the rest of the VP candidates.  She’s also a reform conservative — she challenged the corrupt GOP machine in Alaska and took out the sitting GOP governor in a primary.  In that fashion she fits the McCain mold as a reformer, thereby appealing to independents. 

But, more than anything, she’s an arrow aimed at women voters who to one degree or another still feel marginalized by the Obama campaign’s handling of the Hillary-factor.  Not the feminist voters on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, or the salons of Santa Monica and San Francisco — but soccer moms.  Working or stay at home mothers who saw Hillary Clinton as a trailblazer for women — not as a champion of left/liberal politics.

Can Biden attack Palin without alienating working class moms and suburban soccer moms? 

Are they going to attack a mother of five, including a newborn with Down Syndrome, on the basis that she’s pro-life?  Ardent Pro-Choicers might applaud — the vast middle of the country who are not in either hardcore camp will be mortified.

Biden — meant to shore up a clear Obama weakness which Obama couldn’t address on his own.

Palin — meant to attack Obama savagely on a weakness he made worse by not choosing Hillary.

Again, the GOP knows how to win elections, and the Dems know how to lose.

As Andy Sully would say, “Right out of the Rovian workbook”.

UPDATE REMOVED

111 Responses to “I Want My Own Post On Palin — Why The Left-Wing Punditocracy Is Wrong In Comparing Each Candidates’ Choices”

  1. Democrats – Proudly shouting down women since 2008.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  2. Both parties must now emphasize the qualifications of the entire ticket, rather than just one person or the other on it. The Dems’ inevitable attacks on Palin will only emphasize this.

    It bodes well for McCain-Palin: McCain’s foreign-policy judgment demonstrably beats either Obama’s or Biden’s; Palin’s exec experience trumps theirs, too.

    ras (fc54bb)

  3. As much as its a play to woman voters, I think it also had to do with the timing. McCain is working the media like a trained pooch on this one and on a day where they were supposed to eat up the next supposed ‘I have a Dream’ speech, they are instead talking about McCain’s bold VP pick.

    Suddenly, McCain’s ticket is historical, refreshing, energizing, and aggressive. Everything like someone else’s ticket, and everything it wasn’t just one day ago.

    And that’s ignoring the fact that the base is rallying behind this pick like crazy. The Religious Right love her stance on abortion and faith. The Libertarian Right love her attacks on Pork and the ‘Bridge to Nowhere’. The Female Right love the strong feminist yet traditional tones in here biography. The Male Right love that she’s a VPILF (Sorry, but I am a man, I have a *****, its part of the partnership that makes up the mental psyche, and she is a hottie with a naughty body). In short, in one fell swoop, McCain just consolidated large swaths of his base.

    And this ignores ANY inroads she makes with the Hillary voters, swing voters, or independents.

    Schmoe (79aaf2)

  4. Another great thing about Palin is that she already lowered Nancy Pelosi’s stature just by showing up.

    L.N. Smithee (e1f2bf)

  5. Please, Brer Fox, please don’t throw me into the briar patch!

    Dems have spent the whole day attacking on an accomplished woman with more relevant experience than Obama. And they don’t think Hillary!’s wavering supporters will notice and take heed?

    The more Obama’s disciples rank on Palin, the smarter this pick looks.

    Dodd (a1190e)

  6. I also have to say this pick operates as a kind of “Mutually Assurred Destruction” for identiy based political attacks.

    I’ve gotten pretty sick of the Obama supporters who equate voting voting for someone other than Obama is racism (ie: Krugman, etc.), a tactic Obama has implicitly encouraged with his “and did I mention he’s black?” speech. And while I would implore McCain’s supporters to not go the same route with baseless sexism charges (the Dems will try to rough up Palin because they want to win, not because they are sexist neanderthals), the fact that the “sexist” H-bomb is out there might convince Obama’s campaign to start reigning in their more incendiary supporters for a change.

    Sean P (e57269)

  7. My very conservative 19-year-old daughter on the Palin selection:

    It looks to me like he’s just trying to one-up Obama on being black, which is silly, and looks silly.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  8. WLS- man you said it.

    but…
    “Are they going to attack – on the basis that she’s pro-life? -the vast middle of the country-will be mortified.

    The middle of the country won’t be mortified. And Oh yeah, the Dems. will attack the “barracuda” on her pro-life stance. They will do it by praising and respecting her CHOICE to follow her principles, then note how her PARTY, not her, wants to take her moral choice away from her and give it to the Police/Nanny State. That way Palin is right and her party is wrong.

    I bet ras #2 is right too. I bet they start a narrative of how the experienced Biden can always advise Obama with his FP wisdom and if something happened to Obama the country would have a tried, experienced politician (if not executive) to step up. Then on to how McCain could counsel his pick of convenience on how to be a politician at the national level, but if something happens to McCain then there is suddenly a kid at the wheel who is so immature that she used her position as Govenor to fire someone she didn’t like.
    The Dems are starting THAT narrative already…and it’s not going to work. None of it is going to work.

    I work at a place where most of the people are pretty solidly conservative and all day everyone has been going around completely psyched about Palin. They are all thrilled that there is someone on the ticket that makes them WANT to vote in Nov. and now they are all going to go do just that instead of staying home.

    EdWood (c2268a)

  9. So who would win a head to head game of Horse between Obambi and the Barracuda? Palin played round ball on a state championship team back in’82. Some stark choices here- lady embraces having a Down’s syndrome child vs. born alive attempted abortions should just die (in some case they lie alone breathing in a room until dead), gun rights vs. the government should ban all guns or severely limit ability to own and use them in big city environments despite fact that violent crime rates in those cities are sky high, a woman who fought to lower taxes and, as governor gave state citizens a cut of what state took in due to increased oil prices from the pipeline vs. a punk from a big city whose taxes are highest in nation, a governor who supports domestic exploration for energy vs. a metrosexual euroweenie wannabe who thinks gasoline prices should emulate Europe’s (more tax money for his programs also) and who wants our own vast supplies off limits. No one has a crystal ball and it seems quite possible that Palin could become POTUS in an untimely fashion. Same could happen with Obambi being replaced by plagiarist/political hack/in pocket of credit card giant MNBA slow joe biden. Yes, media and obama minions claim Biden stood up to dictators? I must have missed that one. Nice how Biden won all those delegates to dem convention with his broad popular appeal. Pity that the Silk Pony isn’t the lib class warfare veep selection who might compete in looks department with Sarah. Palin personifies small town America/family values and Breck Girl is out dipping his wick, making a love child while his wife is dying of cancer and disavows that child while in the tank media strives mightily to cover for his cheating heart. hahahaha….Bwaahhhhhh.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  10. EdWood,

    So when Obama gets that 3AM call, he’ll call Biden?

    DRJ (7568a2)

  11. Now is the Time for All Goood Democrats to…

    Volunteers needed: Circular Firing Squad now forming. Previous experience an advantage. Demonstrated ability to talk out of both sides of mouth at same time required. Persons associated with Bill Ayres or any domestic terrorist organization need NOT apply.(OK to send money)

    Fax or email thin resumes to:
    Bomb Baby Bomb,
    Campaign for Hope and Change,
    WU, Chicago Coordinating Committee
    Attn: Bernardine Dohrn

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  12. Want a good example of how Joe Biden’s Senate experience translates to executive judgment? Here’s a taste from Michael Crowley’s interview in TNR about a Biden committee meeting shortly after 9-11:

    At the Tuesday-morning meeting with committee staffers, Biden launches into a stream-of-consciousness monologue about what his committee should be doing, before he finally admits the obvious: “I’m groping here.” Then he hits on an idea: America needs to show the Arab world that we’re not bent on its destruction. “Seems to me this would be a good time to send, no strings attached, a check for $200 million to Iran,” Biden declares. He surveys the table with raised eyebrows, a How do ya like that? look on his face.

    The staffers sit in silence. Finally somebody ventures a response: “I think they’d send it back.” Then another aide speaks up delicately: “The thing I would worry about is that it would almost look like a publicity stunt.” Still another reminds Biden that an Iranian delegation is in Moscow that very day to discuss a $300 million arms deal with Vladimir Putin that the United States has strongly condemned. But Joe Biden is barely listening anymore. He’s already moved on to something else.

    capitano (211a15)

  13. Coldest State, Hottest Governor.

    Fritz (a2e65a)

  14. At my health club today (this is the North Side, so assume primarily Leftie tilt, but not usually crazed), I overheard two 20 – something women disparage Palin immediately. “Yeah, I overheard her praying for her child before he was born, when she found out about his Down’s Syndrome.” Idiot witches, I was thisclose to telling them that the pick basically torpedoed their precious Messiah.

    Dmac (874677)

  15. Imagine the campaign optics of Palin doing a commercial critizing Obama’s abortion votes in the Illinois Senate. It would start a firestorm.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  16. WLS…
    An excellent analysis. Thank you.

    Another Drew (e24867)

  17. The Palin pick is a Grand Slam Walk-off Homer. It’s over. Election night news media will be the saddest people on the face of the earth on election night. Of course they’ll blame it all on racism. When in reality they put up a guy with less experience than Kerry who is more liberal than Kerry. Duh. The American People are smart enough to figure it out. For more go see:
    http://jraymondwright.blogspot.com/2008/08/mccain-palin-crush-obama-biden.html
    and/or
    http://jraymondwright.blogspot.com/2008/07/obamasiah-gaffe-master.html

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  18. Am I the only one to wonder if – and I know it’s early, but… – if McCain-Palin win, are we looking at a realignment of women’s votes for two or more elections as a result? Is Obama willing to throw them, too, under the bus as he flails, and is his party willing to let him?

    Put aside the issues for a moment and consider the power politics: that even a minor realignment tips the balance. There’s more at stake here than just the presidential race.

    And in the near-term, how much does Palin help down-ticket R’s? Or are they a lost cause?

    ras (fc54bb)

  19. All that AND easy on the eyes! Good pick John!

    Did you see her approval rating in Alaska? The negatives are below the margin of error.

    Patrick (5903bd)

  20. DRJ, comment 10, what a great idea for a GOP commercial! It shows an alarm clock reading 3:02 sitting next to a phone on a table in a dark room. The phone rings, a pajama’d hand slowly reaches out to pick it up, a soothing and melodious baritone voice growls out “this is the President” and a voice on the other end says “Mr. President, Al Qaeda has just fired nuclear-tipped missiles at Tel Aviv.” The hand reaches over to the telephone, hits “Forward” and punches in a series of numbers. The phone rings twice, a voice picks up saying “This is the Vice President,” and the pajama’d hand hangs up the phone. Fade out.

    JVW (d54fc4)

  21. What a vivid image, JVW.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  22. At the very least it’s nice to see people fired up about voting and the election. I personally don’t think that this pick is going to throw McCain over the top, but what do I know. I just don’t think enough Hilary supporters or independent woman will line up with someone who is very socially conservative and who really, isn’t very experienced. Yes I understand she’s been the governor for ~2 years and mayor of a town with 6700k people for 4 years. In my opinion, I don’t think its really that much and is less than Obama’s (yes, i know I’ll get flamed for that comment :). Anyway, should be a tight election. I’m just ready for something other than the last 8 years, and I honestly think both candidates will be something better to the table.

    Stu (1f4971)

  23. The post begins with an absurdity [“the test that Bush established for himself??] but I’ll add this anyway:

    Summary: With reports that Sen. John McCain had picked Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his running mate, sexist commentary on cable news followed. On CNN, John Roberts raised the question of whether as vice president, Palin would be able to devote the time necessary to care for her baby with Down syndrome, and on MSNBC, Andrea Mitchell and Chuck Todd suggested that Sen. Joe Biden bears the burden of having to adjust his behavior in a vice-presidential debate because of Palin’s sex.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200808290010

    JAR (08f6d2)

  24. The New York Times’ Caucus blog has this amazing information on the Obama campaign’s initial reaction:

    11:40 a.m. | Obama Reaction: The Times’s Jeff Zeleny has the following dispatch:

    The Obama campaign had no immediate response to reports that Senator John McCain has selected the little-known Alaska governor, Sarah Palin, as his running-mate. Neither Mr. Obama nor Mr. Biden talked to reporters, but Mr. Biden could be seen wearing a wide smile in the front cabin of the plane.

    Ms. Palin came as a surprise not only to many Republicans and journalists, but also to the Obama team. The campaign has been busily preparing TV commercials to run against Mitt Romney — with aides gleefully watching hours of footage of Romney-McCain exchanges from the primary — but far little opposition research had been prepared about the Alaska governor. And aides said no commercials were ready to be immediately released, which the McCain campaign did when Mr. Biden was chosen.

    The takeoff of the Democratic campaign plane was delayed for about 30 minutes, so aides were busily trying to learn all they could about the Palin pick.

    With the Democratic ticket in the air for the next four hours, the new Republican team will own the television coverage for nearly half the day.

    Should Democrats have anticipated this and left Denver sooner, so the Obama-Biden duo could be seen campaigning on a split TV screen with the McCain-Palin pair? Or was it wise to simply let Republicans spend the day airing out their views of this very unexpected choice?

    It doesn’t sound like they are well-prepared for the unexpected. That’s not encouraging.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  25. Ummm…

    I hate to ask, but ummm…

    Someone restate the ages of her kids please?

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  26. Stu,

    Never underestimate the diff between exec experience vs assembly experience. The former is a player, the latter largely a spectator.

    Exhibit A: Nancy Pelosi’s ridiculous comments about natural gas not being a fossil fuel. An assembly member can function at that risible level only because they are not really responsible for much, and so posing abounds, at least as compared to an exec who must balance the competing interests and therefore has more incentive to get real.

    Other examples abound, of course, but that’s how I see it in general. Individuals may vary and even go cross-type on occasion, but I’d take the exec experience any day of the week.

    ras (fc54bb)

  27. Did Palin ever get a primer on the job description she wanted?

    ‘What is it exactly that the VP does, every day?’

    steve (c2c13a)

  28. WLS,

    Off-topic but this link is for you: MSNBC.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  29. ras,

    thanks for the info!

    it’s funny that you mention Pelosi. As a CA resident, I used to think she was doing a good job until I recently started paying more attention. The whole offshore drilling thing is really a big deal to us here in SB, and you’d like to think the majority leader and state rep would know what she is talking about while making big decisions. Unfortunately, I’ve watched her interviews and it’s clear she really doesn’t know much about the topic/subject and often seems very ill-prepared. It seems like Palin is much sharper….though Pelosi has set the bar rather low.

    thanks again.

    Stu (1f4971)

  30. The harder Dems push against Sarah Palin, the more Hillary voters slip away. 30% of Hillary’s support hasn’t yet lined up for Obama/Biden. That’s about 5 and 1/2 million votes Obama left on the table.

    That’s not the way smart politians operate. It shows how badly inexperience hurts, and how quickly a mistake can backfire. Obama’s not in Kansas anymore.

    This is prime time, and Sarah Palin is the real thing, she’s young, fresh, smart, and experienced. Palin represents real hope and real change. Obama and Biden are old hat, yesterday’s news. All talk and no action. Empty suits.

    Ropelight (4a83c9)

  31. Steve @ 2:19pm:

    You do understand that she was asking a question along the lines of “Why would I want a job that doesn’t do anything? I want a job that challenges me” and now “OMiGosh! How KEWL to live in Washington! Is that the state or the capitol?”

    steve miller (0fb51f)

  32. Up to now, I have been a reluctant McCain supporter. I am now willing to let the moths out of my wallet and become an enthusiastic supporter of him because of his VP choice.

    Interesting to me was silently watching my bride and our 21 year old daughter watch in rapt attention during the announcement presentation. Both are non- political, and generally disinterested in political hot air, ideology and partisanship. At election time, they ask me for advice on how to vote. But, based on the expression on their faces and the comments they made to each other during the event, I sensed in them the pride of lions.

    In TV interviews after, Geraldine Ferrarro sounded like she might become, because of the same sense of gender pride, an R voter this time around.

    If Palin is as good she appears on issues and character, the R’s could lock up POTUS for the next 12 years.

    gnholb (710dbc)

  33. That’s a compelling comment, gnholb.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  34. Palin is better than Obama, better than Biden, and to be honest, a whole lot better than me.

    Obama and Biden aren’t, and that is why I will vote for her. McCain, I am not so sure, but tougher? More intergrity? No doubt at all.

    Jack (d9cbc5)

  35. Has anyone ever read “A World Between” by Norman Spinrad?

    Sarah Palin is like one of the positive protagonists in that story. Unsurprisingly, Obama and Biden are a lot like the negative protagonists.

    Jack (d9cbc5)

  36. Did Palin ever get a primer on the job description she wanted?

    ‘What is it exactly that the VP does, every day’

    I think we all ask that question.

    But basicly, they wait for a tie in the senate.

    Everything else is busy-work…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  37. While it’s somewhat rash to make analogies between people from different countries and eras, Palin reminds me a little of Maggie Thatcher, who rose from humble beginnings and fought her way through the incessant condenscension of her peers in the Tory party. I used to love watching her give her opponents hell during the weekly presentations in the House of Commons – regardless of the PC rampant these days, she was a tough broad, and considered that a compliment. For all of her good looks, Palin seems like a tough broad as well, and I suspect that’s why her constituents like her as much as they do. I look forward to watching her give Biden holy hell when he tries to sink his fangs into her. Go, Barracuda!

    Dmac (874677)

  38. Has anybody mentioned this Palin plus:
    She’s not a damn lawyer!

    gp (78ea4b)

  39. How does one “satsify” a test?

    And do we need that VPILF stuff in the body of the post?

    Patterico (647bf4)

  40. P — it’s your sandbox. I furrowed my brow when I did it.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  41. Trust JAR to repeat whatever cheap shots he can find.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  42. Well at long last I’ve found a tcket to vote for with enthusiasm. I’ve been floundering since the exit of Fred, now it is no longer a lose lose situation. People know how to get things done in Alaska. Sure they make mistakes but folks up there roll up thier sleeves and get things done!

    Amused Observer (4dbe64)

  43. Palin is “everywoman.” She is the American frontier woman of our past, present and future. She is the mythological woman of our dreams come alive. She is part of our national psyche. We’ve been waiting for her and now she’s here.

    Republican landslide in November.

    Xixi (323426)

  44. The nagging issue that will follow, after the excitement of this pick blows away will be, has McCain “flip-flopped” on the experience issue? How can you, in one breathe, accuse Obama of being inexperienced for the job of Commander-in-Chief and in the next, pick someone who is even less qualified for the number two position. Knowing fully well that the VP has to be someone ready to take over the job as President should any thing happen to the President. Just look at her and tell me you believe she has the experience to be C.I.C. Since you like to judge Obama on his “thin resume”, will you use the same standard for Palin? McCain has shown that he is just another politician. Ready to do whatever it takes to win an election. Whether it agrees with his core beliefs or not.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  45. How can you, in one breathe [sic], accuse Obama of being inexperienced for the job of Commander-in-Chief and in the next, pick someone who is even less qualified for the number two position.

    — 1) McCain is still more experienced than Obama; correct? 2) The Obama campaign says that it’s about ‘judgment’, not experience. In her relatively short career she has already demonstrated better judgment than Biden.

    McCain has shown that he is just another politician. Ready to do whatever it takes to win an election. Whether it agrees with his core beliefs or not.

    — Excuse me but “it” is a “she”, and she does agree with his beliefs.

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  46. McCain is still more experienced than Obama; correct?
    Comment by Icy Truth — 8/29/2008 @ 5:29 pm

    Palin is more experienced than Obama. She actually has more Executive experience than the three others combined. I don’t think you really want to try and push that angle love2008… it’s not a strength for Obama.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  47. You are gonna sell that lame argument, Icy? Okay. One question. Is Palin more qualified than Obama and Biden to be Commander in Chief?
    (All of a sudden, experience is no longer an issue on this Blog. Wow!)

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  48. love2008,

    The same could be said of Obama’s pick of Biden, only McCain’s compromise is on the second-in-command. Obama is the weak link in the Obama-Biden ticket.

    WLS,

    I really like this post but I’m not sure I agree with your statement that Palin doesn’t satisfy “the test.” VP slots in both Parties are traditionally reserved for promising Party leaders. Pawlenty, Jindal and Palin fall in this category. Kaine and Bayh also qualify for the Democrats. In fact, Palin and Kaine have similar experience levels and most people accepted the Kaine portion of a Obama-Kaine ticket.

    In the past, the VP slot was used to balance a Presidential ticket geographically and that was an accepted practice because it worked to make sure the ticket represented the views of a national constituency. Today, the interests of Arkansas aren’t that much different than those of Oregon so tickets represent a different kind of balance.

    Thus, I think McCain picked Palin in part because she was a woman but the important point is that she was already a member of a group of ideologically qualified candidates. She fit a good demographic from among those candidates but, in today’s world, that’s not much different than balancing a ticket using geography.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  49. Who is more qualified to be CinC, Bambi or McCain? They’re at the top of the ticket.

    If you want to argue that Biden is more likely to be a good CinC than Palin, then go ahead.

    But Bambi is clearly not ready to be CinC

    steve miller (3c2c90)

  50. Is Palin more qualified than Obama and Biden to be Commander in Chief?
    Comment by love2008 — 8/29/2008 @ 5:37 pm

    Yes. No question.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  51. If memory serves, Senator Obama said Thursday night, he will examine budget bills, line by line, and cut wasteful government projects, or words similar.

    Perhaps he might wish to check his job description. Sign, or veto, or take a 10 day vacation. Line by line veto is a no, no, if I recall correctly.

    Be advised IANAL or a con law professor, like Senator Obama, so I may be all wet. But Article 1, Section 7, Clause 2, in my handy-dandy U.S. Constitution seems to cover the issue. And didn’t the Supremes ruling in Clinton vs. City of New York, 1998, specifically say the Line Item Veto Act passed by congress in 1995 was, for good or ill, unconstitutional?

    gnholb (710dbc)

  52. gnholb — 8/29/2008 @ 5:48 pm

    There you go, quoting that pesky Constitution to someone who is a scholar and teacher of the Constitution! Do you think that you know better than the Great He?

    steve miller (3c2c90)

  53. love2008 –

    One question. Is Palin more qualified than Obama and Biden to be Commander in Chief?
    — Yes. Because her ideas aren’t stupid.

    All of a sudden, experience is no longer an issue on this Blog. Wow!
    — As I wrote (in English and everything) it is Obama who says that judgment trumps experience. But when you are talking experience, you need to qualify the type of experience and its real value to the job the candidate is seeking. Sarah Palin has more executive experience than the other three combined!

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  54. Yeah, like twenty months experience as Governor. Sure. Funny how Palin now ranks even higher than McCain. The war hero and foreign policy guru. LOL. She has more experience than Obama, Biden, and the great McCain. Put together? You are gonna hurt yourselves with this BS nonsense.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  55. We did say Executive experience love2008. Why not acknowledge the point as written? Also, I think you know my opinion of McCain, so yes, I’d rank Palin above him. But she’s not running for POTUS, Obama is. Obama has no executive or leadership experience, Palin does. The GOP Vice-Presidential candidate has more qualifications than the Dem Presidential candidate. Very sad.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  56. love2008, list Obama’s experience as an executive.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  57. Or even just list Bambi’s accomplishments:

    Bills passed in the US Senate
    Number of times his subcommittee met
    Number of issues his subcommittee decided
    Number of days he spent in the part-time Illinois Legislature
    Number of bills he authored in the Illinois Legislature

    steve miller (3c2c90)

  58. Obama is ready to be President. (Say what you will)
    Biden is ready to be President.
    McCain is ready to be President.
    Question is: is Palin ready to be President? Think very deeply and give it your most honest response. Mark that word “honest”.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  59. love, I’m so glad that Stashiu3 got to you first. Otherwise, I might have said something unseemly.

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  60. Obama is ready to be President. (Say what you will) Disagree.
    Biden is ready to be President. Disagree.
    McCain is ready to be President. Disagree.
    Question is: is Palin ready to be President? Think very deeply and give it your most honest response. Mark that word “honest”. Yes.
    Comment by love2008 — 8/29/2008 @ 6:57 pm

    You wanted honest, you got it. I would vote for Palin, but none of the others. Actually, I’d vote for Hillary before any of the others.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  61. love2008, you just can’t actually confront an argument, you run from it as fast as you can.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  62. #61
    I really don’t like your attitude. I would really like it, if you stopped directing your comments at me. Ok?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  63. #60
    Stashiu3.
    Thank you for your honesty.
    Since you are talking about “Executive Experience”, would you have preferred someone like Romney or Huckabee or any of the more experienced Governors. If that was so important, how come none of the Governors succeeded?
    One more thing, the work of POTUS, does it require much of Executive Experience” only? Or bipartisanship, ability to make Washington work? How much really can a Governor with limited political experience do? That is why the Senators are winning because they understand the problem and know how to make it work. A Governor’s experience is limited to his or her jurisdiction.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  64. Governor Reagan? Governor Clinton?

    DRJ (7568a2)

  65. Too much is being made of my use of the phrase “the test.” I’m really only referring to the basis that Bush used to pick Cheney. That issue was important to him — mostly I think because he saw what a liability Quayle became to his father.

    All I’m saying here is that both Obama and McCain did not chose to use that as their measuring stick in sizing up their VP possibilities. While its true that Obama chose an experienced Washington pol — though I think a fundamentally unserious one — he didn’t pick Biden because of the “experience” factor. He picked Biden because of his perceived ability to connect with working class white voters (though that has not been validated in either Presidential primary season in which Biden competed, which I think is the fundamental flaw in Obama’s rationalization for picking him).

    WLS (26b1e5)

  66. I’m not making anything out of “the test” but “satsify.” Also “voterr.”

    Spellcheck!

    Patterico (170cd6)

  67. Patterico and WLS – keyboards at 50 paces.

    WLS – You’re forgetting white lower and middle class hunters. Palin and her family hunt Moose (NRA), ride snowmobiles, and enjoy an outdoor life. That’s not just soccer moms.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  68. Since you are talking about “Executive Experience”, would you have preferred someone like Romney or Huckabee or any of the more experienced Governors. If that was so important, how come none of the Governors succeeded?

    Bite your tongue!! Although Romney would be (marginally) preferable to Huckabee. I would pick Hillary over those two as well.

    On bipartisanship, you’ve really got to give McCain the edge over the others. I don’t give that much weight though. Traditionally, Senators don’t do well in Presidential primaries (or elections). This year is historical in a lot of ways, but that is another one. When was the last time a Senator got their Party’s nomination? Kennedy… before that was Truman. The Senate is just not a typical route to the Oval Office, mostly because the roles are different.

    Senators understand politics… that’s the problem (IMO). They treat problems as political issues, not leadership issues. I would venture that most people would say they’re sick of politics… from both sides of the aisle.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  69. #64
    Yes DRJ. I know. But how come the “Governors” did not succeed this year? Was it the Bush factor? He too was a Governor, you know.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  70. “How can you, in one breathe, accuse Obama of being inexperienced for the job of Commander-in-Chief and in the next, pick someone who is even less qualified for the number two position.”

    Love2008,

    How can Democrats, in one breath, accuse Palin of being inexperienced for the job of *Second* in Command, and in the next, pick someone who is even less qualified (on executive experience) and no more qualified (on foreign policy) for the Top Spot?

    It’s like I say: there are arguments to be made on both sides. You’re making the half the Democrats will make. But don’t pretend there’s no rejoinder.

    I’m happy to see that the Obama camp suddenly values experience and rejects identity politics. Just, you know, not when it comes to their nominee.

    Patterico (5d78bb)

  71. This was a great choice by McCain. JD should love it as well, as it forces the Obama campaign to denounce themselves.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  72. 63 more camel dung…how much did being governor of Arkansas hinder BJ Clinton? Jimmuh Carter? In general, governors have the experience day to day of dealing with a bureaucracy. Senators excel at listening to their own pompous bloviating. Even there, McCain is the one who reaches across the aisle. Obama mentioned one instance where he worked with McCain and that was a lie because he had reneged and McCain called him on itat the time. Oturd’s subcommittee never even met and he did not compromise with republicans. Hairplug Biden is great at being wrong across the board on the war. He does excel at helping the banking industry…no insider Washington lobbyist stuff there, eh? Even if his own son has the connections.

    madmax333 (0c6cfc)

  73. #70
    Patterico.
    But don’t pretend there’s no rejoinder.
    So we are now even. We can now put the “experience” argument to rest.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  74. So we are now even. We can now put the “experience” argument to rest.
    Comment by love2008 — 8/29/2008 @ 8:17 pm

    That was … bold. Unwise, but bold.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  75. love2008,

    Not in my opinion, because I think experience matters more in the boss than the assistant boss.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  76. #72
    Glad to hear that. Even though the argument against Governor Clinton then was that he was too young and inexperienced. Even after being Governor for what, twelve years (or so.) Now Palin with twenty months experience as Governor is suddenly very qualified. I get it!

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  77. OK OK — for those of you who don’t know, Patterico has long had a pet peeve over my infrequent use of spellcheck. Before he ran out of patience with me he would simply correct my misspellings without calling attention to them in order to save me the embarrassment.
    I think what I’m seeing now is a switch to “Tough Love” on his part.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  78. Apogee — I think McCain saw a real window into the northern halves of Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin with that part of her biography. The Eastern half of Michigan is HUGE NRA territory. Its why John Dingell, a rabid Dem. partisan is also an NRA member.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  79. I’ll be your spellchecker if you want but I won’t do it unless you’re comfortable with it.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  80. Apogee – I am pleased 😉

    JD (5f0e11)

  81. DRJ — anyone who wants to save me from the embarrassment of clumsy fingers pounding away on a keyboard much faster than they should, only to then reach over and hit “ENTER” without taking a moment to edit — well, fell free to do so.

    WLS (26b1e5)

  82. #75
    Then DRJ, don’t you think the VP should be ready to be President? And are you comfortable with Palin as President?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  83. You create. I’ll spellcheck.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  84. love2008,

    I don’t remember that argument against Clinton. Not saying it wasn’t made, but it certainly wasn’t a major point at the time. Also, he was running for President, not Vice President like Palin. McCain isn’t running against either Clinton, and Obama isn’t running against Hillary or Palin, so comparing apples to oranges doesn’t further the discussion.

    You asked me some questions above and I answered. If we’re going to have a civilized conversation, giving the impression that you’re ignoring my response to you is not helpful. That’s one of the reasons people get upset at your comments frequently. It has to go both ways or it’s too frustrating to interact with you. I’m sure you can recognize that I’m making a special effort to avoid being snarky or aggressive, some effort on your part would be appreciated as well.

    Fair?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  85. #81
    Oops! DRJ. Spellcheck! “fell free..” But I get the joke. 🙂

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  86. Even though the argument against Governor Clinton then was that he was too young and inexperienced.

    You’re playing a little fast and loose with the facts, love. The argument against Clinton wasn’t his lack of experience. No, the arguments were:

    1. He was a pathological liar
    2. Despite being Governor for 12 years, he hadn’t made Arkansas a better place to live
    3. He protested against his own country while living abroad
    4. He was a pathological liar.

    Steverino (1dda08)

  87. love2008,

    My view is set forth in comment 48 (8/29/2008 @ 5:39 pm). Vice Presidents aren’t Presidents and yes, I’m comfortable with Palin because her ideology is well-established. It’s much easier to stick to your principles when you live them and can articulate them.

    The President picks his or her Cabinet, advisers, and staff. If something happens to the President, the VP must be Constitutionally-qualified to step in and should have good judgment and intellect, but the odds that something will happen to a sitting President are low. In addition, if something does happen, the framework for governing is already in place.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  88. I think the President should be ready to be President. As for Palin, I personally think she’s scaring everyone but McCain, not because of experience, but because she represents real change.

    Her record is one of extreme anti-corruption. Come to think of it, that may be far more frightening to Chicago than anything else.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  89. I don’t spellcheck comments, love2008. We’re all in that boat together.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  90. WLS, it’s catching. My 88 should read:

    To #82
    I think the President should be ready to be President, that’s my trouble with Obama.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  91. #84
    I don’t remember you asking me a question I ignored. The last thing I said was “Thank you for being honest.” Then I went on to talk about Executive experience versus Legislative experience. Haven’t I been fair?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  92. It was #68 love2008. Since it was shortly after your questions, I didn’t address it. I read all the comments and forget that others might not. If that’s what happened, no worries. I’d still like your thoughts however.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  93. But it wasn’t a question of mine, it was the answers to yours.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  94. #89
    You are most kind, DRJ.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  95. Stashiu3
    I apologize. To an extent, I agree with you. Politicians cannot be trusted. Question is, how do you fix a broken system with the mindset that broke it? You are right. We don’t need more politicians. We need more leaders. But I believe we can find them on both sides of the spectrum: Both from the Executive and the Congress. The Democrats and Republicans. Whether experienced or with little experience. Old and young. I still have hope.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  96. Question is, how do you fix a broken system with the mindset that broke it?

    Zombie Reagan/Palin ’08!!

    (Patterico just got kicked to the curb and will have to settle for Supreme Court Justice. He just didn’t have the “fire in the belly” required of a candidate.)

    😉

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  97. love2008 (8:17 pm)

    So we are now even. We can now put the “experience” argument to rest.

    — Why do I have the feeling that this argument has been retired the same way that race as an issue has ‘been retired’?

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  98. love2008 (8:30 pm)

    — Never mind. 13 minutes . . . I’m certain that you showed a tremendous amount of bravery in holding out for so long.

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  99. Maybe we can start campaigning for him right here. Soon the pressure will be too much for him to resist. 🙂
    BTW. I think Ronald Reagan was One of the greatest ever.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  100. love2008,

    We haven’t addressed Palin’s knowledge of energy and how it impacts the economy. I’d bet she has far more knowledge about energy, especially oil and gas, than all three of the other candidates combined. That is a very big issue in America today and she has a lot to offer.

    DRJ (7568a2)

  101. #100
    I agree DRJ.
    She comes with the full package.
    Has she mended fences with McCain on drilling or not drilling in Alaska? Do you know?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  102. She certainly is more up-to-speed on energy than the Speaker of the House (who’s two heartbeats away from the Oval Office).

    Another Drew (e24867)

  103. Has she mended fences with McCain on drilling or not drilling in Alaska?

    — And they had a personal confrontation over this when?

    Icy Truth (6e6d48)

  104. Has she mended fences with McCain on drilling or not drilling in Alaska? Do you know?
    Comment by love2008 — 8/29/2008 @ 10:01 pm

    Rather than “mended fences”, I would phrase it as “reconciled positions”… and I don’t know the answer for certain. I seem to remember McCain expressing a willingness to look at the issue and discuss it further (much like immigration). I don’t think he’s established a policy yet beyond the oil shale and offshore aspects that he originally supported.

    Good question because their positions were different not long ago. I look forward to hearing how Palin influences his platform. I don’t trust McCain very much at all, but Palin seems tough enough to keep him on track once the course is set. We’ll see very soon I think.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  105. This is going to be McGovern vs. Nixon all over again. McBarak is in trouble, and I love it. Do not forget that even the New York Slimes endorsed Nixon.

    Raul Alessandri (4d0e59)

  106. Stashiu3 #68: Hate to burst any bubbles, but the last time a before this election cycle where a Senator won a major party’s Presidential nomination was John Kerry in 2004. The last one before that was Al Gore in 2000, and then there was Bob Dole in 1996…

    Xrlq (fb1fc9)

  107. #106
    I think Stashiu3 was talking about the Senators who went on to win the Presidency after being nominated.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  108. and, algore was not a sitting Senator, but incumbent VP.
    Last sitting Senator to win the Presidency…JFK.
    Previous…19th Century.
    It has, historically, not been a good path to the Oval Office.

    Another Drew (f615b7)

  109. I was talking about getting both the nomination and making it into the WH but phrased it incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  110. So, if that’s what you conclude — what becomes of his “Country First” slogan? Don’t you have to conclude that he’s put the country at risk to achieve his personal ambitions? Here’s what one friend and former colleague, a woman and a longtime admirer of McCain, e-mailed today:

    “I take back anything positive i ever said about john mccain….he put an unqualified, inexperienced light-weight a heart beat away from the presidency. reckless, unconscionable and utterly unforgivable. i’m done with him forever….he put politics ahead of the welfare of the country. i expect that of bush, not john mccain. i feel completely betrayed.”

    s (34a128)

  111. Funny, I just got this e-mail:

    “I take back anything positive i ever said about s.he put an unqualified, inexperienced light-weight post up at Patterico’s. reckless, unconscionable and utterly unforgivable. i’m done with him forever….he put politics ahead of the integrity of the comments section. i expect that of sullivan, not s. i feel completely betrayed.”

    Strange coincidence?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)


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