D.C. Denies Heller’s Application for a Firearms Permit
[Heller] says his gun has seven bullet clip. Heller says the City Council legislation allows weapons with fewer than eleven bullets in the clip. A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns.
All bottom-loading guns are outlawed? Nonsense.
He goes all the way to the Supreme Court and wins — and he still can’t have his gun??
Thanks to Charles N.
Really?
My Civic has 4 wheels and an engine, but I can’t drive it on the highway because it’s grouped with dragsters.
Seriously, most of the machine guns I’ve seen are side-loading.
just_some_guy (269d4b) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:05 pmNot to disagree with the argument, but this is not true. The AK-47, the Uzi, and the M-16 are the three fully-automatic machine guns I have had the privilege of actually firing, and all three are bottom-loaded, just like the 9mm Glock and 1911 .45-caliber pistols.
The only weapons I’ve ever fired that are not bottom loaded are revolvers and shotguns. You can include muzzle-loaders, too, but I’ve never fired one of those.
That having been said, I hope he immediately goes to court for civil damages. That may be the only way to punish governments for violating our rights short of armed rebellion.
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:12 pmWell, if he just flips it over and fires with his pinky, it’s a top loader!
Or if he likes to shoot gangsta-style, it can be a side loader, too.
I'm Geekier (55ea85) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:32 pmIt is no problem.
Hold gun upside down. Now gun is top-loading.
PashaG (3de24f) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:37 pmA large number of shotguns are bottom loaded also.
ParatrooperJJ (8a6914) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:39 pmPatrick, have you any insight on what Heller can do next? May he petition for a writ of administrative mandamus?
(I’m not sure which court has the jurisdictional basketball just now and, thus, would be where any such petition would be filed. Is it SCOTUS, still, until the time for rehearing petitions passes and its mandate has issued? Or?)
Mitch (890cbf) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:39 pmVery true. Guess Heller doesn’t get a shotgun, either.
Can’t we just flip the Reset switch already and be done with it?
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:49 pmJesus… AGAIN you drag me back with the pile of stupid that is the above-quoted text…
The AK-47, Uzi, and M-16 are assault rifles.
And the M-16 hasn’t been fully automatic since before I was born. It’s a burst-fire weapon…
Not only are “a large number” of shotguns bottom-loaded, unless they are breech-loading (those classic break-open scatter guns) ALL shotguns are bottom loading (be they automatic, semi-automatic, or pump).
Machine guns, those large (sometimes barely) man-portable tools of wanton death and destruction are almost universally belt-fed, and thus are SIDE LOADING. Examples include the ever-popular M2 Maxim machine gun (in the lovely .50 cal), and the M60 (made famouse by Vietnam movies), and the Squad Automatic Weapon – the M60’s replacement in the US military.
About the only thing that isn’t “bottom-loading” that most people would think to get (because break-action shotguns aren’t very common) would be a revolver.
As for Heller’s options, he should file a Section 1983 suit, and make a claim for Bivens-type damages (for violations of Constitutional rights), and such claim should include the individual lawmakers in their personal capacity as well.
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:50 pmThank you for making that legal distinction for us. My life has been muchly enriched and I invite you to continue to spread your wisdom about such things to the world at large. Maybe even charging a fee.
Because the whole world needs to know that there is no such thing as a man-portable machine gun.
You could retire on the mass of money made from such fee-based sharings. Really.
No, I’m not being the least sarcastic. (The correct word is actually ‘sardonic’.)
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 1:55 pmHeller probably has some very happy lawyers today.
They get to sue the District again, and the District Court judge will probably not be too sympathetic to such a stupid regulation.
The District will probably take the matter up to the Circuit Court, where they will likely get assigned to the same panel that issued the landmark decision invalidating the statute.
The Supreme Court will likely deny cert., and Heller’s attorneys will get their fees paid by the District.
WLS (68fd1f) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:04 pmBurst-fire weapons are considered machine guns federally under the NFA. Local Washington D.C. law calls any firearm capable of firing twelve or more bullets (or capable of being modified to fire twelve or more bullets) without reloading a ‘machine gun’, and bans those items completely.
That, thus, bans nearly all semiautomatics — there are few, if any, that do not have available aftermarket magazines which hold twelve or more bullets. The remainder tend to be historical oddities like the Mauser c96 or Mateba Autorevolver; and I’m not sure even those guns could not be modified somehow to hold twelve or more bullets, albeit with significant costs and reliability issues. It’s not clear where they’d last under the law.
gattsuru (1be9e7) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:12 pmThanks, Scott. You got to it before I could.
“… the M-16 hasn’t been fully automatic since before I was born”
One of my Army buddies got in trouble for rigging his M-16 to be fully automatic. All it takes is a little duct tape.
Joe M. (36eada) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:14 pm#9: you are not being “sardonic: Scornfully or cynically mocking.” you are simply demonstrating your ignorance on the subject matter.
the various terms “sub-machine gun” “assault rifle” and ‘machine gun’ all have precise definitions, despite what you, or the District, may wish to believe.
the AK & M-16 families are “assault rifles”, except of course, for the A2 and other variants that are not capable of full auto fire. since they only fire controlled bursts, it’s debatable whether they meet the accepted definition. the the Uzi is a sub-machine gun, since it fires a pistol cartridge.
modern GPMGs can technically be fired by a single person, however professional military organizations deploy them in teams of 2 or more Soldiers, depending on the TO&E. also, although you can fire one off hand in the standing position, i speak from personal experience in stating that your chances of hitting anything more than a general area when you do so are nearly 0. (even if you’re real close %-)
grouping all “bottom feeding” weapons as “machine guns” is stupid, and as the District will find out shortly (and expensively) wrong. HTH. HAND.
redc1c4 (5c9f54) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:17 pmIt would also ban my grandfather’s .22 rifle with the tube-magazine.
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:22 pmI have read in other places that the strategy of DC was to limit handguns to revolvers. Their argument was that semi-auto handguns were “fast firing.”
Then Instapundit linked to a You-Tube video of a fast shooting revolver expert who fired 12 rounds in 4 seconds including a reloading.
Mike K (f89cb3) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:23 pmIt’s not time to start shooting them, but for the first time I think that time may come in my lifetime.
htom (412a17) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:24 pmredc1c4,
Actually, the SAW is frighteningly accurate for one guy, but not something one would use for those precise shots out past, oh, 15 yards… 🙂
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:25 pmSo, how about the Mauser pistol? Top loading, but is semi automatic? The new/old DC rule is that any pistol that can accept a magazine (not a clip) of more than 12 rounds is a machine gun. I don’t think these cops are very bright Is the semi-automatic Garand M-1 rifle illegal? It is top loading, not bottom loading.
More to the point, can the officer who refused to register it be held in contempt? A real judge would issue a warrant for his arrest and imprison him for contempt.
Johnnie (818f6f) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:25 pmI am no fan of civil litigation, but he should bend them over and no use any lube.
JD (5f0e11) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:27 pmI believe by “bottom loading”, they mean “ammo feeds into the chamber from the bottom”, not “ammo gets inserted into the weapon from the bottom”.
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:28 pm” Unbelievable “….err, considering the level of ignorance, stupidity, and denial institutionalised at all levels of government today ; your statement is patently false. I’m not in the least surprised in light of the posturing of the D.C. politicians since the Heller decision was released.
Edward Lunny (85f233) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:30 pmSounds to me like there are some D.C. officials’ heads that are bottom-loading.
L.N. Smithee (0931d2) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:34 pmSome points from an FFL…
Another Drew (8018ee) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:48 pmAny weapon that can fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, under NFA and subsequent regs, is a “machine gun”. All “burst-fire” weapons are “machine guns”…
If an ammo feeding device has an integral spring, it is a “magazine”; if it does not, it is a “clip” (belts/links not included)…
M-1 Garand rifles have an internal magazine, utilizing an en-bloc clip containing eight rounds, and feed into the chamber from beneath the axis of the barrel…
Some earlier machine-guns (Lewis, Bren, etc.) fed from the top, and ejected from the bottom…
The authorities in DC are morons, and will face the same court sanction as the NOLA morons. Heller should file suit against the City, and the individuals, who are denying him his rights and “break-the-bank” there to get their attention.
Careful, Scott will smash you with his infinite knowledge…
(Okay, now that was sarcastic.)
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 2:50 pmWinning in court doesnt mean you get what you want. D.C. has decided they are going to be RIGHT about their handgun ban no matter what?
EdWood (9df7cb) — 7/17/2008 @ 3:28 pmSomeone has poisoned the DC water system with stupid pills. Time for the military to take over sh** hole and do away with everyone in power, national and DC, before it spreads. A deep hole and a few thousand gallons of diesel fuel should take care of it.
Scrapiron (c36902) — 7/17/2008 @ 3:36 pmTalk about air pollution…
Drumwaster (5ccf59) — 7/17/2008 @ 3:38 pmI will support a hundred million dollar + lawsuit against the city for violating the man’s ‘constitutional rights and every person involved with the violation should be named in the suit. I volunteer for the jury. A D.C. government will exist no more, no funds for other than the lawsuit payoff for 25 years.
Scrapiron (c36902) — 7/17/2008 @ 3:40 pmThen you are less than 40 years old. The M-16, as first used in SE Asia, was indeed, fully automatic. It was later changed to bursts of three due to the ammo waste of full-auto. I went through basic training in 1967 with the M-14 and was then handed an M-16 when I arrived overseas that was, indeed, capable of full auto fire. The small Asians and drafted Americans, with little or no gun experience, preferred the less powerful .22cal. M-16 to the previous and more powerful, .30cal M-14.
That said and back on topic. The propensity of attorneys to assume expertise regarding anything and everything never ceases to amaze me. I owned a sports car racing shop in the 70’s and the lawyers that…..well, never mind. Suffice to say that firearms have been around longer than firearm statutes and firearms have been feed ammunition in many ways and from many angles. The DC lawyers attempting to write effective firearms statutes, without the help of firearms experts, is like the proverbial million monkeys with typewriters eventually writing the works of Shakespeare. Both will never happen.
C. Norris (42ae0e) — 7/17/2008 @ 4:19 pmHeller didn’t bring a gun with him to register this morning.
Notably:
He has until the end of August to get the 3,000 signatures he needs to be placed on the ballot.
steve (d2dfe8) — 7/17/2008 @ 4:29 pmSo the D.C. government is trashing the Constitution? Where is Levi to protest?
SPQR (26be8b) — 7/17/2008 @ 4:57 pmWhere are Toobin, Totenberg, and the rest of that bunch SCREECHING about a constitutional crisis? Can you imagine the fallout if W ignored or refabricated a Gitmo ruling to suit his purposes?
Man. I thought the FL Supremes were bad.
Ed (da1228) — 7/17/2008 @ 5:23 pmSten gun.
Feeds from the side.
I win.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten_gun
N. O'Brain (9056e2) — 7/17/2008 @ 5:29 pmWe should thank the DC authorities. After their prohibition allowed the first test case of the 2nd Amendment since, well, ever, they are at it again.
Now, they are going to singlehandedly refute all arguments for lesser standards of review by imposing myriad “limited” restrictions. The only way to prevent crap like this is for the courts to impose strict scrutiny, allowing malfeasance of this sort to be enjoined easily.
Kevin Murphy (805c5b) — 7/17/2008 @ 6:19 pmInteresting.
TLove (b8e7b4) — 7/17/2008 @ 6:49 pmThis is revenge, pure and simple. Heller embarrassed the DC authorities and they’re going to make him miserable. The District has no reasonable government. Home rule should be abolished. And the twenty third amendment should be repealed.
Ken Hahn (7742d5) — 7/17/2008 @ 6:59 pmpoint of order: the NFA, being a law passed by Congress back in the 1930’s, before there was even such a thing as “assault rifles”, is inaccurate in it’s terminology.
that the NFA doesn’t match the accepted, accurate and differentiating terms of operational art that separates these classes of weapons amongst those who use & understand them, and that it doesn’t adjust itself accordingly, only means that, as usual, Congress is full of shit.
HTH. HAND.
redc1c4 (fd30a5) — 7/18/2008 @ 12:02 amThe really bad thing about this is not that DC’s authorities are blocking people from exercising their rights, it’s that DC’s authorities are encouraging people to act in defiance of regulation. To put it simply, people will stop obeying the law because the law is quite literally being an ass.
Law works best when it works to the benefit of people, not when it is used to keep people under control. Note that the Bill of Rights says nothing about what rights people get, but instead of what rights the government cannot deny the people. The city of Washington DC is trying to pull an end run around the Bill of Rights, and that will be stomped down.
I suspect a number of otherwise law abiding people own an (officially) illegal firearm in DC. Same with Chicago and San Francisco among other places. When the law’s an ass, people defy it. The authorities continue to try holding on to their rotting authority, the day will come when they will be confronted and they will back down. When that happens it will be a long bloody time before the rule of law is established again.
Our first civil war began over a man’s right to be free. Our second will start over a man’s right to effectively defend himself.
Alan Kellogg (e4eab6) — 7/18/2008 @ 2:21 am29, Just to minorly correct you, the M-16 is .222 caliber. It is a big difference when you are hit with it.
A couple of other reasons people preferred the M-16 over the M-14 is the recoil or kick. M-14 kicks like a mule. M-16 kicks like a baby. The stock of a M-16 is composite, therefore light. The M-14’s stock is made of oak and heavy to lug around. .222 ammo is light compared to .308 or .30-06 ammunition, especially if you are carrying 100 or more rounds.
I’m surprised no one mentioned, M-2 Brownings, otherwise known as “Ma Deuce”. The standard .50 machinegun used in everthing from infantry to P-51s and F-8s.
I’m not going to overlook Bonnie and Clyde’s favorite, the BAR. A clip fed, .30-06 caliber, automatic weapon.
PCD (5c49b0) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:07 amI was carrying an M16A1 in the 80’s (when I wasn’t carrying an M60), and it was capable of full auto. IIRC, the M16A1 and M16A3 are full auto capable. The M16A2 and M16A4 are burst fire.
Pablo (99243e) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:18 amPCD.
That’s what I called a Maxim, because I’m dense and in too much love with true classics… 🙂
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:25 am41, I still have to chuckle at my neice in the Navy. She’s 5′ and her battle station on an LSD was a .50 mount. She was a gunner’s mate, and to think of her lugging around .50s, let alone “Dancing with Ma Deuce” just makes me laugh.
Oh, Scott, what does this lass buy for a deer hunting rifle? A surplus Russian Nagant with the bayonet! I ROTFLOL thinking of her mounting a bayonet charge across a farm field at some hapless buck she’s hit with the 8mm round and the damn thing is still standing.
PCD (5c49b0) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:39 am41, a Maxim is a water cooled, and widely used machine gun. I believe it was a .30 cal.
PCD (5c49b0) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:40 am41, Scott, I made an error because I was laughing too hard. My brother bought the Nagant for plinking, and it is .30, but my neice bought a surplus Turkish Mauser, and that is 8mm and came with a bayonet. The mauser is over 5′ long. Which is longer than the girl is tall, and that is without the bayonet. The mauser does have a 1″ thick butt plate. Good for caving in deer skulls or…
PCD (5c49b0) — 7/18/2008 @ 5:47 amLMFAO…
There is nothing wrong with owning a weapon longer than you are tall…
Scott Jacobs (fa5e57) — 7/18/2008 @ 6:09 amI thought the Supes specifically ordered that Mr. Heller be allowed to register his firearm? What, the DC city council says NO? Disband the council. They only exist at Congress’ allowance anyway.
mojo (8096f2) — 7/18/2008 @ 8:26 amDC and Chicago, yes. SF, probably not, as they can’t ban firearms on their own. Cali has its share of statewide bans, of course, but I doubt the otherwise law-abiding owners of such “evil” guns are highly concentrated in Frisco.
Xrlq (b71926) — 7/18/2008 @ 9:55 amSince the phrase is without meaning in firearms terminology. I think we can probably blame the reporter for mucking up a – likely poor – explanation from the police. e.g. “Any firearm with a detachable magazine. What’s a detachable magazine? You know .. one of those bullet thingies that you load in the bottom…”
CMSmith (f287dc) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:15 amThe DC idiots wouldn’t like my .22 squirrel rifle. It has an “evil” banana clip that holds, gasp, 15 rounds. It has a (cheap) telescopic sight. AND, it is semi-automatic. To the DC Cretins, that makes it both an assault rifle and a machine gun.
PCD (5c49b0) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:25 amThe M-14 (also available in full-auto) kicks like a mule? Only if you don’t pull it tight into your shoulder! (Although with a lightweight modern stock it would more likely to, but still not like an M-1.)
htom (412a17) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:26 amM700APR .375 ultra mag loads. Good for all that ails ya’
JD (75f5c3) — 7/18/2008 @ 10:51 amA few clarrifications…
Another Drew (8018ee) — 7/18/2008 @ 11:03 amthe M-16 is chambered in 5.56-NATO (almost identical with the .223-Remington – you can shoot .223 in a 5.56, but the reverse does not always work). .222-Remington is a different cartridge from the .223-Remington;
The BAR is a “magazine” fed weapon, not clip-fed, utilyzing a detachable box magazine holding 20 rounds (21-rounds – 21-pounds, was a favorite saying);
Maxim’s were made in a variety of calibers: 7.62Rx54 for the Russians, .303 for the Brits, 7.92×57 for the Prussians, and even 30-06 for the USA – your calibre might be different.
XRLQ, #47
Authority has three ways to enforce its will upon society; through law, through regulation, and by applying a thick layer of bullshit.
Alan Kellogg (a91880) — 7/19/2008 @ 11:21 amFWIW…
Another Drew (8018ee) — 7/19/2008 @ 11:36 amThere is some anecdotal evidence that “Shall Issue” laws do not increase the number of concealed weapons on the street in any meaningful way, and have led to less street-violence. Those that get the permits were, to a large degree, already carrying (even though illegally), and that some bad-guys exhibited a degree of rational thought, and stopped carrying since they decided that accosting people possibly carrying guns, was not a career enhancement; and, if changing careers was smart, leaving the gun behind was too.
Very little of this, of course, impresses pols in places like NY, CA, IL. They are impervious to rational thought.