FLDS Statistics and Cultural Guide
[Guest post by DRJ]
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has published statistics that break down the children removed from the compound by age and gender. In addition, the website also has a Cultural Awareness Guide to help CPS workers and caregivers deal with the unique needs of the FLDS children.
The Guide notes that FLDS children, especially young boys, have made derogatory comments to “staff of color.” The children have become upset when they see people wearing jewelry, men with facial hair and men who aren’t wearing long-sleeved shirts.
The Guide also notes that the children have been socialized to believe sexual activity with adults is positive. They use the slang term “poofers” to refer to girls who suddenly disappear to take part in an arranged marriage.
Former FLDS member Carolyn Jessop told the Deseret News that FLDS members believe it is immoral to wear jewelry and have facial hair. She also said that Warren Jeffs’ taught racist ideology and banned books, the color red, and pork.
In related news, the Eldorado Success newspaper published the Bishops’ Records seized at the FLDS compound. There are 45 pages that includes columns for Name, Age, Relationship and Residence. The notation “R17” under Residence is a reference to the Eldorado compound.
Many of the families listed in the Record seem to be traditional nuclear families but others are not. For instance, the Record lists one 67-year-old man with 21 wives ranging in age from 24 to 79, and 36 children from 6 months to 21 years of age.
— DRJ
of course, if it were black abductee children making derogatory comments about whitie you would probably start masturbating.
are you a feminzed male by chance?
truth (9a6738) — 5/3/2008 @ 8:51 pmI am more feminized than you imagine.
DRJ (a431ca) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:11 pmDRJ
I want to hear what those “derogatory” remarks are. It’s unseemly of TX to be releasing prejudicial information in such a vague, subjective manner. These children are suddenly realizing they aren’t going back to their parents anytime soon and I would expect some lashing out.
Also, what about the claim that TX has rejected out of hand birth certificates issued by Utah. Seems we are back to declaring minors by ESP (nice way to inflate the ‘kid’ numbers and also “prove” more “underage” pregnancies).
Again, how does “Many of the families listed in the Record seem to be traditional nuclear families” square with the assertion that every family had an underage female who was pregnant?
When do we get to see the seized records the FDLS members made of the TX raid (video, photos, notes)? Or will those conveniently disappear or be declared fakes as well?
Darleen (187edc) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:28 pmtruth, are you in junior high by chance?
Darleen, you seem to be practicing the “vague, subjective” form of accusation you accuse CPS of.
SPQR (26be8b) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:31 pmWhen do we get to see the seized records the FDLS members made of the TX raid (video, photos, notes)? Or will those conveniently disappear or be declared fakes as well?
Darleen – What was seized and when and by whom?
daleyrocks (906622) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:36 pmat some point, i stopped trusting 100% what the state of texas was telling me about this. i share darleen’s concerns.
assistant devil's advocate (eb291c) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:39 pmada – The State of Texas hasn’t personally told me anything about this, so I feel it is possible to read accounts of what is going on with an independent mind and view the comments of the ranters on both sides with scepticism.
daleyrocks (906622) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:47 pm#6, no one is asking you to trust the State of Texas on this matter. What you think doesn’t matter a whit to anyone in that court room. What matters is what these children have been subjected to. But I guess you have no problem with men having sex with underage girls because “God made them do it”?
If the state and anything to hide, it damn sure would not be putting out the information it is.
Seen any black helicopters lately?
retire05 (e8c29e) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:49 pmThree initial comments on these documents:
1. The removed children are roughly 50/50 male/female (214 male vs. 250 female), which seems pretty contrary to the whole “they keep the girls for sex and kick out the boys” narrative that’s been pushed.
2. According to the Bishop’s Records it looks like there’s only 3 “marriages” between an over-18 male and an under-18 female.
3. The “Cultural Awareness Guide” is simply atrocious.
Shad (36f787) — 5/3/2008 @ 9:52 pmDarleen,
You object that the Texas officials have released information in the form of a Cultural Awareness Guide, Statistics, and Bishops Records. You also object because Texas hasn’t released all information seized in the initial search. The information released isn’t one-sided or derogatory, and it seems to me that a substantial amount of information has been released in a relatively short time period.
In addition, everything I’ve seen indicates that Texas officials are trying to deal with the children in a compassionate manner, e.g., see this DRAFT Model for Care Guide. And let’s not forget that the initial search was conducted without injury to any adult or child.
I think it’s very appropriate to have concerns but it’s also appropriate to see both sides. For instance, I specifically included the fact that there seem to be many nuclear families in the Bishops Record because it supports a concern that Texas officials overreacted when they removed all children. In fairness, however, it’s also important to acknowledge that the Texas officials have claimed every household had an underage mother or pregnant female. We may know more about the families but we still don’t know who lived where.
Maybe Texas officials overreacted and maybe they didn’t but, so far, if there have been pervasive wrongs committed they seem to have been perpetrated by the FLDS and not the State.
DRJ (a431ca) — 5/3/2008 @ 10:10 pmShad,
The gender of the children according to the Texas Statistics:
Age —————— Girls – Boys — Total
Birth to 2 years — 49 —- 53 —- 102
3 to 5 years ——– 46 —- 53 —— 99
6 to 9 years ——– 68 —- 63 —- 131
10 to 13 years —- 34 —- 28 —— 62
14 to 17 years —- 27 —- 15 —— 42
Age disputed —— 26 —– 2 ——- 28
Grand Total —– 250 — 214 —– 464
Thus, the gender of the children is roughly equal until the children reach puberty, at which point the gender divisions clearly are not equal.
DRJ (a431ca) — 5/3/2008 @ 10:16 pmDRJ- much agree that it’s a terrifying amount of power, but given the pretty bloody obvious proof of wrong doing in so many forms…. It seems clearer and clearer that they had the evidence, they just needed a cause. Kind of like the drug dealer at my high school–EVERYONE knew he did it, but until someone gave a solid, legal reason to search him, they couldn’t do anything.
BTW, outstanding reply to #1.
Darleen – they are probably related to that old “curse of Cain” story; you remember, after Cain killed his brother, he got scared that the others would kill him, and went to God, who put a “mark” on him. At some point, someone– without much sense– decided that dark skin just *must* be the mark, so it was just fine to treat them as sub-human.
Foxfier (74f1c8) — 5/3/2008 @ 11:17 pmIt’s mentioned in the cultural guide.
Open question, especially directed at SPQR and others relying upon the canons and ethics of THE LAW and The Bar….
Should the State of Texas and its agents be concerning themselves with creating the best possible presentation of evidence in the trials/hearings that are to come, or should the SoT and its agents work to be as fully transparent as conceivably possible with each passing day?
Are the conclusions foregone? Is everything from here on out simply to be an exercise in putting a judicial patina on the seizures and separations of all the children/minors? Are they all to be legally emancipated from their mothers and fathers?
If the conclusions are not foregone, how much longer should the 100%, complete, and utter separations persist before reunifications of any sort, at any level, may occur? What standards of proof are required?
Ed (f28e9a) — 5/4/2008 @ 12:52 amEd:
On the SoT: Little column A, little column B. It’s a bit of a false choice.
Of course the conclusion isn’t forgone; however, neither is any other case, no matter how strong the evidence. We have a LOT of preggers teen age girls and evidence of polygamy with girls who are under-aged, as well as the sex imbalance.
Given the recorded actions of the parents/adults involved– I’d call it “tampering with a witness”– it will probably be a while.
I can’t have a lot of sympathy for folks who taught their kids to lie, and lie *really badly,* when they get bit on the tail because their kids are lying in an investigation.
I’m neither a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but given the history, I’d be very cautious as well. Very cautious.
Foxfier (74f1c8) — 5/4/2008 @ 1:45 amthey are probably related to that old “curse of Cain” story
Yes, it is possible. It is also possible these kids are acting out from being forcibly seized and separated from their parents and forcibly detained in an environment that is alien from their home environment.
I have no problem with going in and charging adults with actual crimes. I have a really big problem with declaring a lifestyle a potential crime and making wards of the court every child in that lifestyle ..even declaring people “minors” who may not be minors and incarcerating them. Also, nursing toddlers over 12 m/o have been taken from their mothers.
The release of the “guidelines” and the “derogatory remarks” are less informative than they are an attempt to propagandize the public.
Maybe you should look at the sorry history of how American Indian children were routinely “saved” by goverment family welfare agencies from a “primative culture” to be raised by more enlightened, mainstream white people.
Darleen (187edc) — 5/4/2008 @ 7:36 amdaley
In several of the newsreports, it has been cited that the FDLS members videotaped, photographed and made notes on the raid, but that the police seized those recordings along with all documents such as birthcertificates and tax returns.
My 20 y/o daughter is very young looking. If someone demanded proof of her age and I was unable to produce her birth certificate (and if I did, the certificate was rejected ‘as a fake’), how else could I or she really prove she wasn’t 16? And certainly, the seizing authorities could merely say “well, we were acting in good faith”, months after she was released from unlawful incarceration.
Family law courts have a great deal more power AND public unaccountabilty. Dealing with CPS is akin to dealing with the IRS. There is no punishment when they get it wrong, so there is no incentive to get it right.
Darleen (187edc) — 5/4/2008 @ 7:43 amwhoops…sentence fragment. Third paragraph, 1st sentence should read:
Darleen (187edc) — 5/4/2008 @ 7:46 amSPQR
Are you, perchance, a CPS worker?
Darleen (187edc) — 5/4/2008 @ 7:47 amOh…btw, the warrant against Dale E. Barlow has been dropped.
I guess actually questioning him in the first place might have queered the ranch raid but now they can just sweep it under the rug.
What was that about TX acting in “good faith”?
Darleen (187edc) — 5/4/2008 @ 7:58 amthis thread is doing a great job of separating those who repose complete faith in the state’s power and benevolence, belief in its words, and those who don’t.
little to no follow-up on the mysterious caller who sparked the raid. was it rozita swinton? is she one of the people in custody, who just hasn’t been identified yet, or is this question even still relevant? i believe that it wasn’t just a hoax, but a hoax fabricated by the state as pretext for its actions.
the young mothers are victims, but they are being treated like perps, rounded up, cellphones confiscated, separated from their children. i don’t think it’s appropriate to separate mothers and children en masse, i need specific evidence of a pending threat in each instance. general references to the harmful philosophy of the sect don’t do it for me.
also, we need more family court judges like darleen.
assistant devil's advocate (acf7ef) — 5/4/2008 @ 9:08 amDarleen, it is becoming obvious that name calling is your main rhetorical tool.
No, ADA, that’s another strawman. I don’t have “complete faith” in the state’s power and benevolence. Quite the opposite. And I happen to think that CPS departments have a pretty bad history. But that does not mean that they must be prevented from working, it means that they must be reformed.
Knee jerk reactions against CPS is just fanaticism.
SPQR (26be8b) — 5/4/2008 @ 9:47 am“are you a feminzed male by chance?”
wtf?
stef (8a983a) — 5/4/2008 @ 11:29 amDarleen, it is becoming obvious that name calling is your main rhetorical tool.
SPQR, I went back and reread all of Darleen’s comments. Exactly what name-calling did she engage in?
There are aspects of this story that don’t add up, and I share some of her concerns. My reaction isn’t knee-jerk, it is from following the story and weighing the evidence presented.
Maybe there were actual crimes committed in the compound, but if the raid was triggered by a practical joke, that could be very ugly legally.
I don’t give either CPS or FDLS the benefit of doubt; I do think that this is a bad story all around.
Paul (266a05) — 5/4/2008 @ 12:27 pmEvery time I read something on this group I keep coming back to one thought…
Just like the wench said…It Takes A Village…
Mike1957 (d1de05) — 5/4/2008 @ 12:47 pmDarleen: Get your daughter to get a passport.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 5/4/2008 @ 6:18 pmShe’s going to need it anyway if she plans to do any travel outside the country.
Problem solved.
Darleen, it is becoming obvious that name calling is your main rhetorical tool.
No, ADA, that’s another strawman. I don’t have “complete faith” in the state’s power and benevolence. Quite the opposite. And I happen to think that CPS departments have a pretty bad history. But that does not mean that they must be prevented from working, it means that they must be reformed.
Knee jerk reactions against CPS is just fanaticism.
SPQR – I don’t see an argument in here, just innuendo.
EdWood (752387) — 5/4/2008 @ 11:28 pmTexas: “See, they’re raaacists, so that makes what we’re doing to them OK.”
Please. The state is really getting desperate.
CTD (7054d2) — 5/5/2008 @ 7:50 am