Patterico's Pontifications

4/24/2008

Opposing Views on the FLDS Case

Filed under: Civil Liberties,Current Events — DRJ @ 11:31 am



[Guest post by DRJ]

Like the Elian Gonzalez and the Terri Shiavo cases, people are polarizing over an emotional story in the news – in this case, the FLDS child custody case. It seems to me there are three main viewpoints:

1. Some people approve of the State’s action because they believe the State has an interest in protecting girls in polygamous sects from underage sex.

2. Others need more evidence that underage FLDS girls were having sex with older men and getting pregnant. They don’t believe the CPS allegations and/or they don’t agree children should be taken away from their parents without clear proof.

3. Others aren’t concerned about underage sex or pregnancy because they are already pervasive in society. These persons require more evidence of neglect or abuse than underage sex or pregnancy to justify removing children from their homes.

People in the second and third groups are overlapping for now but their divisions will become more clear if the State comes forward with clear proof of its allegations. From what I’ve read about the Texas system, the State will present its evidence at the adversarial hearings on or before June 5 so we should learn more then.

Which group or groups do you fit in, and have I left someone’s views out?

— DRJ

100 Responses to “Opposing Views on the FLDS Case”

  1. This is one case where I dont believe I have enough information to form an opinion that is anymore than hyperventilating about the case. I would like to hear more factual information (as opposed to opinions maskerating as facts)

    Joe - Dallas (d29492)

  2. This is indeed a tough one. No one likes to see children being abused, but I also wonder about the women. In every interview I’ve seen of them on TV they look like the Stepford Wives. They are so programmed it’s hard to know what the truth is. But two facts remain – polygamy is illegal and sex with underage girls is statutory rape.

    jwarner (0c2175)

  3. DRJ – I’m group 4. Polygamy is not recognized under Federal law, as well as the LDS church. In order to effectively practice polygamy, the sect must isolate its order from the general population, which explains the virtual company towns run by the sects, located in the boondocks of the US.

    This isolation by its very nature produces coercive and in my estimation unconstitutionally restrictive scenarios whereby children and others born into such sects are deprived of their basic liberties. The “they’re not bothering anybody” argument would be fine if those who did not choose to be a part of the sect had the freedom to come and go, but as we’ve seen with the Jeffs case, the very existence of these sects must be enforced by the removal of basic freedoms in order for said sects to continue without competition from outside factors.

    In general, people should be left alone by the federal government, but the reason for that sentiment is the sacred value of individual freedom, a value subjugated by these sects. That’s why I don’t have a problem with the raids.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  4. #1
    If young girls (16 and under) are being forced to have a “spiritual” marriage and be forced to have sex with that “spiritual” husband who is old enough to be her father, the state has a right to put an end to that. The state, in my opinion, should also be going after any over age man who has sex with a minor whether she is willing or not.

    But the sexual abuse is not the only factor that the #2 and #3 supporters are not looking at. The TxCPS reported that some of these children who are 11 or 12 can barely read or write. I also consider it abuse for a child to live with a bunch of women who are all considered it’s mother and has no idea who his/her biological mother is. TxCPS Supervisor Voss also testified that there was evidence of broken bones with some of these children and I saw an interview with Dr. Michael Boden who said that the injuries can be determined to be by natural accident or by abuse. I am sure the CPS is looking into that as well.

    We, as a society, should be willing to do whatever it takes to protect the most helpless among us. If a call comes in to the Texas Adult and Family Protective Services reporting alleged abuse of a child, a senior citizen or a handicapped person, it is their responsibility to check it out. How many times have we heard of children who have fallen through the cracks (especially in Florida and New York) because the CPS dropped the ball and the child wound up dead?
    The very people who are screaming that TxCPS has overstepped their bounds whould be screaming to the roof tops if there were a dead child involved.

    retire05 (39e132)

  5. I guess you would call me in the #1 camp, but with the caveat that I don’t necessarily “support” CPS’ actions – as I’m looking forward to CPS providing more substantive evidence of what went on.

    However, I don’t buy into any of the arguments of #3 at all. Red herrings.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  6. I actually fall into all three categories. I do believe the state has an interest in protecting girls in polygamous sects from underage sex. Therefor, I agree with the premise of group 1, but think the remedy in this case is extremely overbroad.

    I probably most agree with 2 from a legal standpoint, but would refine it to make it clear that families who don’t have underage marriages should not be broken up just because they live next door to one who does, no matter what.

    In other words, the fact that a family approves of the underage marriages of others in the compound, by itself, should never be enough to cause the families without underage marriages to lose their own kids. Even if they’re teaching their beliefs to their kids. That’s thoughtcrime, plain and simple. They’re allowed to believe our laws are wrong, as long as they don’t break the laws themselves.

    From a moral/ethical standpoint, though, I really don’t care that much about this particular problem as compared with the various other social problems our society faces today. I think it’s turning into a gawkfest. To me, the only really newsworthy thing about it, on a national level, is the fascist acts of the CPS.

    Phil (6d9f2f)

  7. Is the goal of Texas Juvenile law to reunite the family? Or, is it the best interest of the child (defined by a judge after hearing argument from all parties)? If the children come first, then Texas blew it by taking these children, en mass, away from their parents. First question: What is the supposed behavior that constitutes the “abuse” alleged here? I think everyone can agree that it is underage girls shouldn’t be forced into or even “voluntarily” engage is sexual actions with older men. Period. End of potential abuse. Why then does hte Texas CPS take all 437 children away from their mothers? The only members of the entire compound that are “at risk” of suffering any form of abuse are young girls between 12 and legal age of consent. Period. Not the 4 month olds and 3 or 7 year olds. I wrote more about this at rrconservative.blogspot.com

    Bottom line: The welfare of the children should come first, the potential female victims need to be protected, but the remainder of the children should be with their mothers, not in foster care.

    J. Raymond Wright

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  8. There is the pro-polygamy group, however small. Clearly the adult residents of the FLDS would not belong in the other 3 groups, and they cannot be the whole group. Call that #0.

    There may also be divisions of #3, where some folks may not feel the state should be interfering in minor’s sexual choices in ANY case and should only get involved after a clear case of assault occurs. If then.

    And there are folks like me who say: What a —- mess, I’m glad it isn’t my problem.

    Kevin Murphy (805c5b)

  9. Based on this San Angelo Standard Times article, it sounds like the authorities separated the mothers and children over 12 months today and are returning the mothers to the ranch. (Eldorado is south of San Angelo.)

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  10. i wouldn’t say the state of Texas had a “right” to intervene, but it sure as hell had a duty to do so.

    what’s been done to these children is child abuse, plain & simple and for people to say nothing should be done is despicable.

    are we so far gone into ennui that no moral outrage stirs us any more? what do these people have instead of ethics and honor and what kind of children are they raising themselves?

    redc1c4 (292479)

  11. I care not a whit about these people and their whacked out beliefs save one thing, an erosion of one liberty is an erosion of all liberties.

    Many aspects of this case would trouble a point of view that holds that the Constitution does not grant personal rights but defines state power. Those of us who do not grasp the difference between a democracy and a republic may fail to see the implications this situation brings to light.

    The facts are uncertain and the right to a presumption of innocence is clear. One would be very hard put to argue that the 14th amendment is not being run roughshod here. Can a case be made that this spectacle and group prosecution is in any way shape or form an example of equal protection and due process? I think not.

    It is beyond the obvious that the certain effects of separating parents and children will be extremely stressfull in the short term. How much greater harm could possibly befall these innocent children if a little time passes before a rush to judgment tears them away from their families? If the parents are found guilty there will be time enough to find a cure.

    However I think it highly unlikely that each and every one of these parents will be found guilty.
    Who will be held accountable and how will they make right the harm they have caused, the violation of the inherent right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that ripping a family asunder is almost guaranteed to cause?

    We are either a nation ruled by law or we are not. If our most primary relationship, that between parent and child, can be severed not by actual real evidence in a court of law but by the whims and vagaries of the state we are but little removed from the subjugation we suffered under so long ago, that of the divine right of kings.

    Amused Observer (bd33ae)

  12. Ha, I’m not only thrilled CPS took these kids away, I hope that these adults, mothers and fathers and every single adult who knew about this stuff, is prosecuted as harshly as possible.

    If any of these kids were young enough, and I’m sure they were, then I want to see Aggravated Sexual Assualt convictions, dozens of them, and 25 year to life sentences. They don’t qualify for the death penalty. These crimes are vicious and disgusting and I think we’re focusing too much on the rights of these “parents” who seem to be willing to interchange husbands/rapists by committee.

    Jem (4cdfb7)

  13. I’m disturbed by a number of things about this. First I of course do not like the fsct that these underage girls are forced to wed.

    But, I don’t like the obliteration of the rights of the accused which this case embodies. This has all been done on a false accusation with no 4th amendment proof. And group trials, when did we start doing that in this country?

    Lastly the ignored issue is the fate of all the teenaged boys. Just how do you generate a lopsided male/female ratio? In this case it seems to have been done by tossing boys out on their ears with no education and no experience in the world. That seems to be lost in the flap over the girls.

    Agesilaus (595a34)

  14. Agesilaus, this is not a criminal proceeding. That might be the first clue why criminal rights do not apply.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  15. Lastly the ignored issue is the fate of all the teenaged boys. Just how do you generate a lopsided male/female ratio? In this case it seems to have been done by tossing boys out on their ears with no education and no experience in the world. That seems to be lost in the flap over the girls.

    Yup. And why isn’t the State of Texas making an effort to find these “lost boys”? Are they not children too? Are they not abused/neglected? Or is their situation simply not salacious enough and/or they’re the wrong gender?

    Pablo (99243e)

  16. I was pretty much in favor when it started; I didn’t see how it could have been screwed up.

    Grabbing all of the families because some of them might be abusing, though, is too much.

    Given that the call was a hoax (and I’ve heard any number of guesses as to motives for the hoax) ouch.

    The road to a real mess is paved with good intentions.

    htom (412a17)

  17. I would break this group run by dirty old men up. And prosecute the men to the fullest extent of the law. But I would treat the young mothers and children as though they were my own daughters. Which is what parens patriae promises in the first place.

    To quote DRJ, “What a mess”.

    nk (35ac33)

  18. Amused Observer – You are correct that the Constitution does not grant personal rights. It recognizes them. And it does so by framing the limitations of government with respect to their ability to encroach on the rights of the people.
    …nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Life, liberty and equality are assumed.

    The FLDS Case is made up of many actions by government authorities, and is not a single action. The individual merits of the various actions can and should be argued separately. I hold a different view on the removal of the children from their mothers in aggregate, and that is that the state has a duty to interview all of those involved and to adjudicate removal/retention on an individual basis. The blanket removal smacks of bureaucratic laziness.

    Personally, I do not find any constitutional challenge to the raid on the sect’s area by the government, especially after the report (bogus or not) that violations of the law were taking place on the premises. You are right that the erosion of one liberty is an erosion of all liberties as there is no line to define “too far”. However, I think you’re giving no weight to the fact that the sect, as a group, has no collective right to exist beyond the boundaries of the law merely because they isolate themselves from society. It is this very isolation by a group, not an individual, that warrants the intervention of the government in this manner, rather than the punishment of an individual, as is typical of those living within societal bounds.

    I share your disdain for no-knock warrants served late at night by swat members based on the word of criminals who stand to benefit from the information. Just as the siege of Waco was unnecessary, as Koresh could have been apprehended in transit to the town, there are some government actions that are handled inappropriately, and those should be dealt with in full view of the people.

    The case of Warren Jeffs too easily illustrates the extreme physical and mental control that the sect exerts over its members. I completely disagree with the idea that these members, many of whom were born into membership, are not due equal protection under the law in regards to their basic liberties. Allowing the sect to operate unfettered and in isolation because of fears of government intrusion would be, in my mind, criminal.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  19. I would say that I belong to a combination of groups 2 and 3. While I am concerned about underage and unwed motherhood I don’t think it alone constitutes evidence of abuse. I don’t disbelieve the states allegations of abuse but I think that they require more proof that just my gut feeling before they start bring criminal charges. Especially when the age for marriage in Texas with parental consent is 16 and all the actual cases of pregnancy that I am aware of are among girls 16 and older. That said if any of these charges are proven I would wholeheartedly support death by repeated butt-raping for the men involved.

    chad (719bfa)

  20. Absent definitve DNA results, these children are being seperated from the “adults” at the compound, not their parents.
    Once actual paternity and maternity can be established, then we can talk about family re-unification.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  21. Another Drew,
    So you would be fine if the state snatched your children, if you have any, and held them for 90 days while they run DNA tests. You would have to provide a DNA sample to the state if you wanted to prove paternity. No sample, no proof and they farm you kids out to the foster parent hell.

    Agesilaus (595a34)

  22. I’m not living in a commune where the paternity and maternity is shared among a fairly diverse group of adults.
    Apples & Oranges.

    Another Drew (f9dd2c)

  23. You would have to provide a DNA sample to the state if you wanted to prove paternity.

    That would create a problem if their mother was 15, wouldn’t it?

    Pablo (99243e)

  24. At the science blog GNXP, Razib offers some useful context for thinking about sects that practice polygamy (or other deviant behaviors): When Wierdos Are White.

    AMac (c822c9)

  25. I don’t think so, Pablo. They would already have the 15-year-old’s DNA when from taking the children’s DNA.

    However, they may have to expand the database. Susan Richardson, a lawyer representing one of the children, claimed in court that the parent of her client is Warren Jeffs.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  26. DRJ, I’m referring to the fact that you’d have to expose yourself as the impregnator of an underage girl if you were to submit DNA for paternity testing. Sorry if that was unclear.

    Pablo (99243e)

  27. AMac,

    Unless I’m misreading it, your link seems to focus on plural marriage and posits this child custody case as a reaction against that. If so, I disagree completely. It’s well known this group and others like it engage in plural marriage and most people didn’t care. In some ways, it’s even a good thing because at least there is an extended family unit.

    The problem with Warren Jeffs’ sect is its proclivity for underage sex. The testimony at the initial hearing was that, of all the FLDS sects, only the sects related to Warren Jeffs have adopted that feature. That’s why the presence of several underage pregnant girls is relevant and why the State argued that justified removal.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  28. Pablo,

    Okay, I’m sorry I misunderstood. I agree those dads may not come forward but if they’ve parented several children, as some probably have, they are between a rock and a hard place. They can’t claim any of the children without submitting DNA.

    Also, because these family genetic histories are so interwoven, they may still be able to make a good guess who the fathers are.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  29. DRJ – The problem with Warren Jeffs’ sect is its proclivity for underage sex.
    I disagree. The problem with Warren Jeffs’ sect is that for it to remain a sect and not splinter apart, coercion was necessary not only in regards to underage girls, but also towards anyone challenging the power structure of the sect. Witness the ‘lost boys’ whose only crime was to challenge the necessity of underage girls to wed elderly men, thus insuring those men greater power. This is not just an issue of sexual abuse, this is a self-isolated group with coercion as its only tactic for survival.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  30. DRJ #27,

    You’re largely right; Razib writes,

    The treatment meted out to the FLDS illustrates the limits of the tolerance of acts between consenting adults

    But earlier,

    Aside from the formalization of a routine of statutory rape encouraged by Warren Jeffs [rather a large aside–AMac], I suspect a bigger issue is that the FLDS legitimizes & solemnizes practices Americans want to keep marginalized and sinful (for lack of a better word).

    Count me in as a member of group #1, and also not-#2 and not-#3.

    Organized polygamy violates our society’s norms, and leads to a host of troublesome problems. It’s obviously neither necessary nor sufficient for the promotion of 30-to-50 year old men having sex with underage girls, but neither are the two practices unrelated.

    In the ‘simpler’ time of the 1880s and 1890s, the U.S. already had this issue resolved in its favor, with the Mormon church. The FLDS case is on the radar today, but it will hardly be the last instance. Polygamy is accepted practice in some parts of the world, and one of the ‘benefits’ of large-scale multicultural immigration is the opportunity to make far-away problems our own.

    Contra Group #3, subgroups that organize, institutionalize, and legitimize behavior that is both antisocial and illegal should not be condoned or ignored. Of course, my position leaves the question “what is to be done?” unanswered. I’m not in favor of violating the rights of people because I think they are in error, much less “harming the children in order to save them.” Thus far, TxCPS appears–from a distance–to be making the best of this bad situation.

    AMac (c822c9)

  31. The history of such sects in the US is a messy one. As a rule they are annoying to the neighbors, for a number of reasons, some of them the fault of the sect and some of them the fault of the neighbors. As a rule, the government (local, state, or federal) ends up raiding them based on allegations that don’t ever quite pan out after the fact.

    I cannot help but remember that the WACO raid was based on allegations of child abuse that, to the best of my knowledge, have never been substantiated in a court of law. That makes me uneasy.

    Are the FLDS sinkers who abuse children? Maybe. Unless the government has one hell of a lot more evidence than I have read about, I am still severely unhappy about the raid. People who practice polygamy and child marriage are (or certainly can be – look at the Islamic lice) bad for a civilized society. A government that raid based on highly questionable rumor is worse.

    C. S. P. Schofield (eaaf98)

  32. I have problems with the logic here. Why should anyone be upset that in this commune that maternity might be questioned? Freedom of religion and by inference lifestyle is celebrated in America. The reason for the Puritans that immigrated was that they wanted to live the way their religion instructed. That is a lifestyle. In many inner cities communities and among blacks illegitimacy is 70%. Many children do not who their father and it could be several different males. So questionable paternity is accepted by society and CPS does not involve themselves in those cases. Also underage pregnancy is not uncommon. Why else have school pushed for allowing dispensation of condoms to middle and some elementary schools?

    So we have communal lifestyle and in this lifestyle women make up the family unit and share child raising duties. Certainly seems to be a method for ensuring that children get good care from loving adults. Since the women share child raising there is question on the maternity of the children. If society does not care about paternity why should it care about maternity? The whole emphasis is that the children get a strong family unit and have caring adults. If people here are upset with that idea, then are they upset with 2 gay men raising a child? Or 2 gay women raising a child. It is conceivable that among gay women that the maternity may not be told to the offspring. The children could even be adopted or from donor eggs so there is no biological maternity. Society has already agreed that that is acceptable. Why not in this case?

    The main offense is the assumed underage age sex of teenagers to older men. This violates age of consent and is statutory rape. How many teenagers that are under 16 get pregnant by a male over 21 in this country? So we prosecute every one? I doubt it. Generally the only time this becomes an issue is when the girl cries forcible rape.

    Now for the real issue, this is a cult. They like to live separate. The limit outside influences and they abide to very old tenets of male dominance and female submission. For Christ sakes look at the outfits!! They are very modest and the style is exact. No individuality, It is all conformist. They are old fashion. The women certainly seem to like it and the rest of humanity recoils because we don’t like conformity, or female submission or the idea that women can be happier living with this lifestyle. They are different and it offends our sense of normality. So it must be condemned.

    Our country was founded on the idea that people can live different ways if they want. But the people who scream for the law and prison to be thrown at these people seem to missing that our society has allowed isolationists cults from the beginning. The Amish has been here since the colonies started and they live in similar styles. Now they do have distinct parents and the do not marry before the age of consent. But all the girls are married. There are no or little illegitimacy. They dress all the same with conformity. They limit outside modernity. They have a more old fashion gender roles.

    I read the CPS testimony and I was struck on how CPS seemed to think it was abuse that girls are taught to get married and have lots of children. They encourage child bearing at younger ages when the girls are more fertile and capable of child bearing. I do not think CPS has the authority to break up families because they do not like the religious lifestyle on encouraging youthful marriages and multiple children.

    Also if CPS suspected abuse why did they come in at 9 pm instead of morning when more children would be up? This smack of SWAT like tactics. If you read the testimony the CPS supervisor said that they left at 3 am after waking up lots of families after being there 6 hrs. There was no suspicion of imminent death or torture to justify a late raid.

    If Cps was making a reasonable investigation they should have made arrangements to meet the commune and arrange to speak with the young mothers and try to determine the ages at marriage and whether their male partners were old enough to claim statutory rape. Ask those women if they were forced into marriage with old men. If they objected to be expected to bed old men.

    I got the impression after reading the CPS supervisor testimony that she was horrified at this conformist lifestyle an the women who married young and had lots of children unlike what modern society teaches. Their ideas and lifestyle offended her personal sense of what is normal so she yanked all the children since children should never be brought up to a paternalistic doctrine. This was so anti feminist.

    I have a real problem with someone who uses or abuses their authority of law to destroy families, tear nursing babies from the breast, just because she thinks it is wrong and violates her feminists’ beliefs. I do not believe that justice is served when the government subjects children to abuse like separating nursing infants and toddlers from their mothers in order to save the child from nonexistent abuse. There was no evidence of physical abuse to these young children according to her testimony. The broken bones were normal childhood injuries. This is the classic throwing the baby out with the bathwater in order to save the baby from drowning.

    The false call that caused the destruction of hundreds of families is problematical. They had a duty to investigate but they went overboard.

    Texas law when this commune started had marriage at 14 allowed with parental consent and 16 without consent. There are many states with those laws. Texas law has changed to 16 for marriage with or without consent I believe a few years back. So mothers who had married at 14, the fathers would not be liable for statutory rape a few years ago.

    Now these marriages may be irregular since there were not civilly recorded but they still may be legal. Common law marriage is still on the books.

    I do not like this commune or their beliefs systems but what I like or not is immaterial. The question is did CPS abuse their authority or overstep their authority. If the criminal behavior is statutory rape, then why does not CPS investigate every case of teenage pregnancy to see if the father was old enough to be statutory rape? There are enough girls in the cities that qualify.

    I predict that there will be a few convictions of the older males and a lot of civil rights cases that Texas will pay damages.

    RAH (f3b841)

  33. For all of you who think that the children should be returned to their mothers, I would ask “how do you propose to do that”?
    The children, some of them, are unaware who their biological mother is. Some of the children answered two or three names when questioned who their mother was.
    So if you don’t know which child belongs to which mother, how do you return that child to it’s mother?
    This, so far, has been a case of abuse of minor girls. TxCPS Supervisor Voss also testified that there is evidence of broken bones in some of these children. The bottom line is that it is the sole purpose of the TxCPS to protect children who cannot defend themselves. Where they to allow these children to remain at the compound, not knowing who their parents are and virtually turning them over to just any adult who “claims” them, it would be irresponsible on the part of the TxCPS. And since the TxCPS requested that the children be allowed to continue to practice their religion, wear the clothing used in their faith and be home schooled to prevent “culture” shock to children who have never been exposed to the general culture of America shows that TxCPS is concerned about the welfare of these children.

    You can moan and groan all you want about how the FLDS members have had their rights abused. But the rights of children supercede their rights to abuse these children. I found it interesting that Judge Walthers referred to the 18 FLDS members that had infants as “girls”. Why did she not refer to them as “women”?

    retire05 (39e132)

  34. RAH, I find that it is your comment that lacks logic. You seem to prefer making up your own evidence to evidence you don’t care to hear.

    Like so many who defend the FLDS, we keep hearing about inner city pregnancy rates and general cases of statutory rape. “They do it too” is a defense that usually fails past kindergarten.

    But more importantly, it simply is not irrational for CPS to focus on a group that is organized to commit statutory rape even if not every other case of statutory rape is prosecuted. If CPS ignores one case of statutory rape, that does not make it an “abuse” or an “overstep” of their authority to investigate another one. That’s illogical on your part.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. C.S.P. Schofield – The problem is that these aren’t just people who practice polygamy and child marriage, and this wasn’t just some government raid.

    The sect operates as more of a company town, where the leaders own the property and control the flow of money, jobs and social status. I think those facts set it apart from any other community, as those challenging authority can be completely devastated in ways not possible in “normal” society.

    Members who are abused in a closed system like that have no recourse open to them, which makes the raid and subsequent removal of the members understandable. Without the disruption of the hierarchy, there can be no discerning if the reported crime was bogus or not.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  36. To #33.

    Babies can not tell who their mother is but generally we accept the mothers testimony and do not require DNA testing . IF the baby was taken from a particular woman, then give the baby back to that women. Pretty simple I think.

    RAH (f3b841)

  37. Generally, we don’t pick up hundreds of children from a extremist religious compound. Its not simple .

    SPQR (26be8b)

  38. RAH – The women certainly seem to like it and the rest of humanity recoils because we don’t like conformity, or female submission or the idea that women can be happier living with this lifestyle. They are different and it offends our sense of normality. So it must be condemned.

    No condemnation is necessary for those who wish to live that way. The problem, in this instance, is that the very organization of the “cult” prevents any opting out (for reasons elucidated in #35), and thus violates the rights of individual members who either change their minds or were born into the system. With extreme isolation, they have no chance to actually weigh options regarding their “conformity”. It is not simply different. It is coercive. It is tolerated to some extent simply because it isn’t under our noses.

    As to the comparison with the Amish – incorrect. Amish live among others in areas like Lancaster, PA, use the same roads, sell their wares at market, and most importantly, have a system by which the children are allowed to go out into the world to make their own decision as to whether or not they want to be a part of the community. It is not forced upon them, nor are questions asked of them if they choose to return to the community after the “wild years”.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  39. Apogee #29,

    I think you are right about Jeffs’ Arizona and Utah sects but the anecdotal reports indicate that most of the members of his Texas group were compliant and willing to stay without overt coercion. They were sent there because they were especially obedient. Of course, that doesn’t mean their offspring were always compliant.

    Apogee #38,

    I agree with you about the Amish. In addition, it seems like some people are romanticizing the FLDS as quaint and endearing. It’s probably because of the way they look and what we assume about their lifestyle. They may grow their own food but their leaders apparently control assets worth hundreds of millions of dollars:

    “While many have wondered how a Mormon splinter sect financed its multimillion-dollar development near Eldorado, one man thinks he knows the answer.

    Bruce Wisan, an officer for the sect’s $100 million real estate trust, said he believes sect spiritual leader Warren Jeffs drained the trust to pay for the YFZ Ranch and improvements there now valued at $21 million altogether.

    “Warren was converting trust assets into cash at fire-sale prices to get the cash to build up the community in Eldorado,” Wisan said.”

    DRJ (a431ca)

  40. DRJ – Nice diggin’, as usual.

    Your post helped me to clarify my overall opinion, and that is the sects are really a type of religious/business operation organized for the benefit of the spiritual leaders. It seems telling that the ‘community’ may contribute to the growth of the assets, but are seemingly restricted in their benefit or control of said assets. Seems like a lot of other systems I’ve read about.

    That is why this case, to me, is about much more than illegal sexual proclivities. That may be the reason for the government’s intervention, but it’s hardly the sole problem with these sects.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  41. If Jeffs fathered any of these children, that will come out in due course since his DNA is on file. He is in prison, and they take DNA there.

    As to Waco, though there might have been allegations made to the media about child-abuse, the hook for the ATF raid was the possession of automatic-weapons in violation of NFA-34.
    You don’t mount a SWAT incursion to combat child-abuse, not unless you want to have a bunch of under-age casualties (which is exactly what happened, eventually – Thanks, Janet).

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  42. Another Drew

    There are lactating women in the group being separated from their children for 60 or more days

    Do you think their status as actual mother to the child they were nursing is in question?

    And since TX seized all paperwork from the compound, isn’t it nice and easy to say “hey, you have no proof that kid is yours”

    Darleen (187edc)

  43. SPQR

    Why yes, this FDLS sect was organized solely for the purpose of illegal sex. Nothing but a bunch of cynical, lying adults pretending to have religious beliefs just so they could have wild sex in a temple setting.

    Now. Let’s go after the boy-buggering Catholic Church! There’s another criminal organization!

    Darleen (187edc)

  44. Why yes, this FDLS sect was organized solely for the purpose of illegal sex. Nothing but a bunch of cynical, lying adults pretending to have religious beliefs just so they could have wild sex in a temple setting.

    I understand the sarcasm but it is close to the truth. The mainstream Mormon Church renounced polygamy about 120 years ago. The jack Mormons are holding on to it for what?

    nk (35ac33)

  45. Nothing but a bunch of cynical, lying adults pretending to have religious beliefs just so they could have wild sex in a temple setting.

    Naah, that’s the Unitarians. It’s also a byproduct of Rastafarianism and rumored to be the impetus behind the recurrence of the study of Talmud.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  46. nk

    Uh, Jack Mormons are ones that hide the cigarettes and booze when the elders come to visit … (my late paternal grandma)

    The FDLS, IMO, have held onto polygamy the way some splinter Catholics have held on to Latin Mass and rejected Vatican II. They believe their fundamentalist grasp of their scripture is the “purest”.

    The original LDS didn’t embrace polygamy as a way to have wild sex under the guise of religion anymore than the Shakers embraced chastity as a way to avoid sex under the guise of religion. They each had/have a set of behaviors in which they believe brings them closer to God’s plan for humans on earth.

    A mere 2000 years ago, pagan society saw both the Jews and their splinter group – the cult of Christians – as pretty weird with their emphasis on sexual monogamy. Sex was about a sacrament of love bonding heterosexual couples. Sex was procreation or an expression of power and social rank.

    Darleen (187edc)

  47. Whoops… to clarify –

    Sex as only legitimate as a sacrament of marriage was a part of those that followed the Bible

    whereas Greek/Roman Republic held sex as a means of expressing one’s status (women, slaves and young males were ‘inferior’ to free men, thus were acceptable sex partners as long as said inferiors were always in the passive role).

    Darleen (187edc)

  48. Darleen, do you enjoy exhibiting your bigotry toward Catholics or are you really that stupid?

    Now, to the “lactating” mothers. How long do you think a child should nurse? Any child under the age of 12 months is being allowed to stay with it’s mother. All children over the age of 12 months will not. But then, we all can see that you are fixated on what happened 2,000 years ago. Thank God my gene pool is still not that murky.

    The birth records for the FLDS are listed in the “Bishop’s Record”. As are the marriages. They are incomplete. Hence, the need for DNA. Children from the FLDS have also given more than one name when asked who their mothers were.

    Question to you Darleen: if your mother was in a nursing home and someone, who did not give their name, called and reported your mother was being abused, would you want that investigated? Sure you would, and if anything happened to your mother because Family Services dropped the ball and did not check out the tip, you would be the first one in the lawyer’s office trying to find out who you could sue.

    retire05 (39e132)

  49. Darleen,

    I believe I am as much conflicted about this situation as you. I think the young mothers are twice victimized — first by their “husbands” and now by the State.

    I have always thought “Jack Mormon” to be synonymous with “apostate” or “pretend Mormon”. Blame it on my hippie years reading Edward Abbey and Richard Bach.

    As for sex with slaves, we don’t need to go back 2000 years. Or even one year. Or even one day. But that’s a discussion for another time.

    nk (35ac33)

  50. Apogee,
    Per your post 38. I agree that some sort of mechanism to allow members who wish to would be needed. I do not know enough about the cult to know if the excess male population can communicate and create an escape mechanism. This cult probably will have to have some sort of court order to prevent the statutory rape to be doctrinal and that the cult will have to develop a relief mechanism for members to choose to leave or stay. The Amish did have to sort that out on various court decisions in the past.

    My main point was that CPS seemed to more bothered by the thinking of the females that they liked it that way. Our system of dysfunctional families and female liberalism may not be the best way for our civilization a hundred years from now. I certainly would revolt in the FLDS system and my son has been a rebel from the time he was a year old is similar. Some personality types would naturally revolt even if they were female.

    I am grateful that the cult decided against resisting the raid with force. This way the cult will probably survive and eventually the mothers will get their children. I expect that the excesses of CPS may bring some reforms and FLDS women on abridgment of rights will win suits. Eventually a system of visits to ensure the lack of coercion on young females and the ability to resist the expectation they have to bed old men will happen. I may not like this cult but a diversity of systems is what America is about.

    However I have been dismayed at the viscous tone of some commenters that all these people are horrible and deserve the worst. I have tried to show worse events happen in the cities with the prevalence of young unwed motherhood and the multiple fathers that is common. The young females in inner cities are also victims of statutory rape with their own connivance. Young females are pushing to achieve adult sexuality at younger and younger ages and often want to get pregnant even if there is no support structure from the father or family. This cult certainly provided the support structure.

    The foster care system is rife with abuse. The percentage of children that suffer sexual abuse is very high. I sometimes think that some children would be better off with original families than in the foster system. Of course there are always those few horrible examples of parents killing their children. This cult did not seem to have evidence of physical just a social pressure to marry and have children young.
    This cult may be weird but if the people want to live that way and bring their children up with those beliefs that is their right. But any CPS raid that takes over 400 children is wrong. That simply goes against our system of justice. I am afraid that CPS will attempt to brainwash these children with the trauma of being separated from their parents and being isolated in a strange homes and strange ways in order to get the children to testify. Similar to past sexual abuse scandals that Janet Reno did in Florida and happened in Washington or Oregon state where half the town was jailed and the sheriff held one girl in a insane ward and had her drugged to elicit testimony.

    RAH (f3b841)

  51. Re the nursing babies, it doesn’t really matter what anyone believes the ‘right’ age to wean a baby is. Judge Walther cited many weomen returnign to work at six weeks as some sort of rule of thumb. I thought it absurd because who says that this is indeed in the baby’s best interest? The fact remains that cold turkey weaning is going to be traumatizing to both mother & baby. If a 12 month old can stay with its mother, why not a 15 mo old, or 18 mo old? I don’t understand the point of distinction.

    Also, in light of the question of girls marrying young, during the 1800’s it was not uncommon for girls from 14 on to marry. Men going westward needed helpmates, someone to share the workload and obviously provide children. When the average lifespan was significantly shorter than ours and agrarian societies were the norm, it easier to understand the acceptance of early marriage.

    During the colonial times, girls were considered adults at 13, and boys at 14. There wasn’t the luxury of indulged teenagedom.

    None of this is to justify the YFZ situation but more a curiosity in noting that societal changes, industrialization, and so many other things, not all necessarily good things, have caused what was morally accetable to something not only morally unacceptable but also illegal.

    Personally, I’m a mix of all three choices. There are no easy answers. Many have been hurt already and sadly, many more will be too. Hopefully, though, some will no longer have fear be a part of their lives.

    Dana (908324)

  52. No, RAH, the cult does not have the right to “live that way” where their practices violate Texas law.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with CPS taking a particular number of children from the ranch. The law does not give CPS a quota.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  53. RAH #50 – You will not get me to defend Janet Reno.

    Our society cannot prevent people from living in a way that they choose. It can, however, prevent people from living in a way that they do NOT choose, and that is my major distinction.

    Court orders could be quite helpful. If, perhaps, one were to be mandated in which all participants of the sect had equal shares and say in the control of the monetary assets, along with the right (non-revocable) of divestiture, it would eliminate one extreme control over any one member of the group by any and/or all other members.

    I am only concerned in guaranteeing choice as a part of the equation. The responsibility beyond that is up to the individual.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  54. Oops. Just saw SPQR’s #52, and had to immediately amend mine to read Our society cannot prevent people from living in a way that they choose, as long as it obeys the law.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  55. #31 …

    I cannot help but remember that the WACO raid was based on allegations of child abuse that, to the best of my knowledge, have never been substantiated in a court of law.


    Comment by C. S. P. Schofield — 4/24/2008 @ 6:00 pm

    Sadly, your memory confuses reality with official spin; the WACO raid was about firearms licenses. The child abuse accusations happened sometime after the raid, but before the fire.

    One can hope that there’s an infant who is a day or a week over twelve months for an example. Anyone want to bet that the judge did not breast-feed?

    htom (412a17)

  56. The Texas CPS has bumped “the number of children in Texas custody to 462 because they believe another 25 mothers from the compound are under 18.”

    DRJ (a431ca)

  57. Also, a Texas appeals court has agreed to hear an appeal challenging the placement of the children in foster care without individual hearings. The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday in Austin.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  58. I agree with nk.

    You left out the cynics DRJ,
    There are many good, dedicated people working at CPS offices all over the country doing the best job they can and I bet Texas still does whatever it can using any tactic to be “right” about its actions. I also bet that Texas CPS takes as many children as it can, particularly babies (under2) away from these people as it can.

    The cynical point of view is a useless one I know and I sincerely hope I’m completely wrong in the end.

    EdWood (4dbae4)

  59. Apogee # 54 & 55,

    I agree with you that the members should be allowed to leave and an equity system of shares in assets may be a solution.

    Your statement that their system needs to be within the law is correct but with this proviso; common law is develop from series of court decisions.Law flows from societies’ traditions and customs. Society shapes the law, not the law shapes society. Statutory laws can change from year to year. A person can be law abiding in the eyes of the law and then the law changes and that person is now a criminal. I dislike the continually criminalizing of behavior that may or not be dangerous because some busybody is offended that people do something different from him or her. Often law is like that. Like older peole disliking young people riding skateboards and skooters on town sidewalks. But later finds that law interferes with the elderly scooters.
    Seatbelt laws that deprive me of the right to choose to be belted or not. Why shouldn’t a passenger on long trips be able to lay down to sleep? Seat belt usuage is wise but should not be mandated by law.I am concerned at the continual nannyization of our culture and the consequent lack of freedom that causes.

    Back to the FLDS situaution, it is clear that clarification of age of marriage with an escape mechanism is needed. Texas should try to discourage the power play of older man to hold on on all the young women and the close blood relationships between breeding couples shoud be discouraged.

    RAH (f3b841)

  60. Darleen #49,

    I agree that in the past rank and power had a lot to do with how many young women and children that one male could have. It is not so different among animals and other cultures. Large families become clans and clans become tribes . Large tribes rule territory and can expand to ruling nations.

    RAH (f3b841)

  61. To get back to the original question I agree with all 3 positions. I think the state has a legitimate rational to ensure that statutory rape is not occuring. The states needs evidence before withdrawing children willy nilly. And since society has accepted and by implication has condoned teenage pregnancy; the issue of women having children at 16, whether married or not is not a big deal.

    The issue on what defines an adult. Past history had the rites of adulthood much younger and teens were expected to shoulder responsibilities much younger then they do today. Once a man joins the military then he should be considered an adult. Once a women has children then she also should be considered an adult. The law can considered these young people as emancipated adults.

    I find it confusing to consider the young women under 18 being considered children when they have already been performing adult roles by being mothers.

    The continually infantilizing of teenagers and young adults is progressing toward adults with concommittant loss of authority of what adults can do or not do. Not a good sign of a free society.

    RAH (f3b841)

  62. Although I don’t think ANY of us have ALL the “facts” in this sad case, the main point of these “actions” by the government was suppose to be for for purpose of protecting the children– was it not?

    I must say that what I have seen so far in the “actions” of State of Texas, this was POORLY thought out! I’m sure ANY of us would have to agree with that.

    As a homeschool mother of three, I just can’t help but feel so scared for these children that have lived such isolated lives and now because people feel to step in and “help”/prevent further abuse to them, they throw them in FOSTER CARE?!!!
    A system that is so riddled with abuse/neglect/fear (need I continue?!!!). These “investigations” should have been thought out better – plain and simple!

    Meda (6a9a1a)

  63. Polygyny (where most male elders receive multiple young women as wives) necessarily leaves the tribe with an excess of sexually frustrated young males. The bachelors can be offered advancement (or martyrdom) on the battlefield, or they can be expelled.

    FLDS is economically parasitic on larger American society, and justifies maximizing welfare payments and other state subsidies as “bleeding the beast.” So it’s not surprising that they see nothing amiss with dumping surplus youngsters into neighboring towns.

    This 2006 salon.com story is about the Utah/Arizona base of FLDS and Warren Jeffs, but it is relevant to the discussion here. The Lost Boys of Colorado City, by Kimberly Sevcik.

    The Broken Windows theory of policing calls on law enforcement to get at a larger societal problem (e.g. urban decay, gang takeovers, rampant criminality) by dealing aggressively with the small, discrete, illegal acts that accompany and legitimize it.

    Is it ethical to consider organized FLDS-style polygamy as such a problem? Should we view it as simply an alternative choice of religion or lifestyle? Or is the sect’s overall likely impact on the larger community irrelevant to what is, in essence, simply a contentious child-welfare case (multiplied by 400)?

    AMac (c822c9)

  64. WordPress disdains my thoughts on the FLDS, it seems. One final try, without embedded links:

    Polygyny (where most male elders receive multiple young women as wives) necessarily leaves the tribe with an excess of sexually frustrated young males. The bachelors can be offered advancement (or martyrdom) on the battlefield, or they can be expelled.

    FLDS is economically parasitic on larger American society, and justifies maximizing welfare payments and other state subsidies as “bleeding the beast.” So it’s not surprising that they see nothing amiss with dumping surplus youngsters into neighboring towns.

    This 2006 salon.com story is about the Utah/Arizona base of FLDS and Warren Jeffs, but it is relevant to the discussion here. “The Lost Boys of Colorado City” by Kimberly Sevcik.
    http://tinyurl.com/5vq23d

    The “Broken Windows theory of policing”
    ( Wikipedia http://tinyurl.com/29zpw8 )
    calls on law enforcement to get at a larger societal problem (e.g. urban decay, gang takeovers, rampant criminality) by dealing aggressively with the small, discrete, illegal acts that accompany and legitimize it.

    Is it ethical to consider organized FLDS-style polygamy as such a problem? Should we view it as simply an alternative choice of religion or lifestyle? Or is the sect’s overall likely impact on the larger community irrelevant to what is, in essence, simply a contentious child-welfare case (multiplied by 400)?

    [EDIT: AMac – I found your comment and it’s now #63. I think the links caused it to get caught in the spam filter. — DRJ]

    AMac (c822c9)

  65. Apogee;

    I agree that the “company town” aspect s troublesome – although hardly new, as the history of the LDS will show. I am simply reluctant to grant the State the right to determine how people will live (absent hard evidence of lawbreaking) to avoid smaller conglomerations of swine doing so on a local level.

    Let us say, I would be a LOT happier if the State had set up a mission in the “company town” and prepared to escort anyone who wanted to leave out, with armed guards as necessary.

    Yeah, I know, the State isn’t that idealistic or subtle.

    htom,

    I remember that various State spokes-swine claimed that the WACO raid was about a lot of things, none of which seemed to go anywhere. What REALLY bothered me about that mess was that it was plain to me that – whatever the facts concerning the Cult – the State had screwed up, BIG, and the people at the top didn’t care enough to sacrifice one State scapegoat. Even if the raid was absolutely and completely justified by the facts on the ground, the execution of the raid, and the conclusion of the standoff, should have gotten SOMEBODY fired. For simple idiocy, if nothing else.

    That smacks of a bunch of smug State swine doing what they “know” is right and looking for legal cover after the fact – and ceasing to look the moment the issue becomes moot.

    I don’t like that. It makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

    C. S. P. Schofield (eaaf98)

  66. The FDLS are a large, well-organized criminal conspiracy created to violate local, state & federal laws covering age of consent for marriage, polygamy, child custody, welfare fraud, child education, and child abuse. The people in the cult felt absolutely no need to follow the law and were quite proud about their ability to violate the law with impunity. In such a situation, a mass raid is one of the few ways the state can reassert authority. Any normal attempt to enforce the law would be thwarted by the church officials. Unusual circumstances call for unusual actions and as time passes the criminal charges against this cult will pile up.

    You can’t violate the law with impunity just because you’re “home-schooling” your kids or you feel “God commands it”! Gimme a break.

    [EDIT 4/25/08: As noted in the comments below, this “Pablo” is different than the Pablo who posts here regularly, and he’s posting from a different IP address. Welcome, Pablo 2, and if possible please use a different name in the future so we can keep our Pablos straight. — DRJ]

    Pablo (293c34)

  67. Pablo,

    OK, agreed. Up to a point. But I want to see real evidence of wrongdoing, and legal warrants based on something other than anonymous tips (this part of the story may have been superseded by better information by now). Yes, I’m against large groups conspiring to ignore the law. But that includes the government. In fact, it especially includes the government.

    Also, I would feel one heck of a lot better if the government seemed to be expending the same degree of effort on, say, Islamic groups preaching Jihad, or bomb planting tree-huggers, or illegal aliens who are also felons.

    But maybe that’s just me.

    C. S. P. Schofield (eaaf98)

  68. C. S. P. Schofield:

    To continue (and you can look it up) the WACO raid was intended as a publicity event by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. The BATF has a history of staging a dramatic SWAT-team style raid on some kind of gun dealer a couple of weeks before their budget comes up for a vote in congress, and this was at the appropriate time for the appropriate year. (Tellingly, the codename for the raid was ‘Showtime’.) They bust in the door, they point guns, they confiscate all the paperwork, and go over it with a fine-tooth comb. Inevitably they can find some kind of minor paperwork error that results in a meaningless but chargeable offense. It is dramatic, however, and it makes the news – because the BATF invites news crews along for the show.

    The problem was that the BATF invited the Waco media a couple of weeks ahead of time. Word got around, because it’s a fairly small place, and the Branch Davidians heard that the gummint was going to storm the compound with guns, so they locked up the doors and barricaded themselves in.

    From there, accounts differ depending on who you like. To me, the most reasonable hypothesis that I have heard is that when the BATF agents jumped off of their trailers, one of them suffered an accidental discharge and shot himself in the leg. He shouted, “I’m hit!” and everyone started shooting – proceed to confusion. There’s some reasonable data at wikipedia.

    Further accusations of child abuse were just justifications – the Waco sheriff had been in their compound several times on investigations, and whenever he wanted questions answered, just knocked on the door.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  69. EdWood,

    I think cynics fit under option 2 — they need more evidence because they don’t believe the CPS.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  70. C.P.S. Schofield – It’s not just you. I too would like to see those other groups dealt with, and I agree that each one of your examples has lobby capability that impedes law enforcement from equally protecting other citizens (like you and me).

    The government mucks it up a lot, but I agree with Pablo – not on this one. These compounds are essentially religious businesses isolated from society. They use isolation and coercion and violate many laws, all to benefit the ‘elders’ in stature and profit. The religious aspects are used to shield their illegal behaviors.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  71. CSP Schofield,

    I put you in category 2 and there’s nothing wrong with wanting more evidence. However, like most states’ laws, Texas child protection laws err on the side of removing kids when there is a reasonable suspicion of abuse. The purpose is to avoid further abuse pending investigation.

    It’s fine to argue the laws should be changed and to take steps to try to change it in your state but as long as these are the rules, the local authorities have to follow them.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  72. If they are violating so many laws, why not charge them with that? Why do you need an anonymous tip for a fraudulent warrant? What crimes are they alleged to be committing that endangers any child except the 11-15 year old girls? Why did CPS take the draconian measures they have taken if they were operating in good faith?

    It may be an incredibly sleazy disgusting law breaking cult but they are Americans and they have rights. Clearly their rights have been violated. That is the only part I am sure about as of now.

    CAL (82f082)

  73. Apogee,

    But here’s the thing of it; sure, I tend to think that the “religious” aspect of the thing is a front. But I don’t know. And I don’t think that the State knows either. I think the State has form opinions on the subject, and I’m less than comfortable with that. Because the next thing you know the State (which LOVES compulsory Public Education, except for its favored) will get firm opinions about the Amish, or the Mennonites.

    I know there are lots of folks who think this is within the scope of what the State should do. I disagree. Strongly.

    But I don’t like the notion of young girls being held in virtual slavery either.

    luagha;

    I guess my point, perhaps badly stated in the original, is that I can’t help but remember that Waco DOES seem to have been a publicity stunt gone bad, and that nobody got the axe for it. That bothers me a good deal, and I don’t much care WHAT justifications the State came up with before OR after the case.

    I think the FLDS are probably stinkers, but I don’t like feeling that this might be a case of some organs of the State picking on the unpopular to make pleasing headlines. I have the uncomfortable feeling that I might be next.

    C. S. P. Schofield (eaaf98)

  74. Interesting. While I agree with every word of it, the comment at #66 is not mine. So, hola Pablo!

    Another troubling facet of all this is that all income earned by FLDS members is given to the FLDS and is therefore tax deductible. The church then does all of the purchasing for all of its membership, thereby rendering the entire community tax exempt.

    C.S.P, the pregnant underage girls are a good start. And let’s remember that there’s also a federal warrant that has been served and an FBI investigation ongoing. That was not based on the phone call, but on what state officials found when they went in. I agree, the original probable cause is screwy, which is unsettling, but that doesn’t invalidate the warrant or change what they found when they went in.

    [EDIT: Pablo, I left a note in the earlier comment to show it wasn’t yours. — DRJ]

    Pablo (99243e)

  75. But here’s the thing of it; sure, I tend to think that the “religious” aspect of the thing is a front. But I don’t know. And I don’t think that the State knows either.

    The state knows it’s a Warren Jeffs joint, as do the feds. And they know how he operates.

    Pablo (99243e)

  76. And Jeffs isn’t sitting in a cell because of his religious convictions. It’s for the other kind of conviction.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  77. So an underage pregnant girl is automatic proof of child abuse? CPS applies this rule regularly with all children and demands DNA tests to determine the father before allowing the mother to keep the child? They also take children from anyone nearby while conducting their investigation? Doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    As to anything found based on the warrant, I am not as sure as you are that it doesn’t all get tossed when it is determined the warrant should never have been issued. It is fruit of the poisoned tree as far as criminal cases go.

    CAL (82f082)

  78. As for the state getting firm convictions on the Amish, or Mennonite – doubtful. As I said earlier, those communities live amongst the regular population, and interact with said population. They don’t scam welfare and hide their revenues under tax-exempt religious status. They operate legitimate businesses.

    My Grandmother lived in Lancaster for 60 years. I’ve spoken with many Amish and Mennonite. Sure, it’s not my choice, but they’re certainly not a cult. And they’re not dependent on isolation and coercion to exist.

    The state is charged with upholding the law. When they get reports of violations, they are bound to investigate. Due to the odd nature in which these sects must be set up to exist, the state had to intervene in the way it did to properly conduct that investigation. Otherwise, it would have been blamed for ‘not doing enough’ had evidence surfaced later that the allegations were true.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  79. So an underage pregnant girl is automatic proof of child abuse?

    In this compound, set up in an isolated area, and with most of the teenage boys banished so as to make room for the greater power of the ‘elders’, I’d say there’s a very good chance that statutory rape has been committed. Your inability to see differences between goings on in the compound of this sect and single occurrences in a high school in suburban Kentucky is what doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  80. So an underage pregnant girl is automatic proof of child abuse?

    No, but proof isn’t required at this stage of the game. That comes in adversarial hearings, which will happen in June.

    CPS applies this rule regularly with all children and demands DNA tests to determine the father before allowing the mother to keep the child?

    Of course not. But they should be determining who impregnated girls who should not be pregnant and if it’s stat rape and not a Romeo and Juliet deal, they should be prosecuting. but that everyone who speeds doesn’t get caught doesn’t mean that your ticket is invalid.

    As to anything found based on the warrant, I am not as sure as you are that it doesn’t all get tossed when it is determined the warrant should never have been issued.

    Unless they lied when seeking the warrant, it’s valid, and probable cause (not definite cause, mind you, but probable cause) exists. Further, the call had nothing to do with the federal warrant.

    DRJ, thanks for the note. 😉

    Pablo (99243e)

  81. If only blacks get speeding tickets though, there is going to be a problem. Where else is the CPS looking into statutory rape cases in this manner?

    CAL (82f082)

  82. CAL,

    My guess is they are looking where it’s been reported, including this case.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  83. They investigate when they get reports. And I’m sure that child rape investigations aren’t limited to FLDS, as they’re certainly not the only people out there doing it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  84. I don’t doubt they investigate abuse where its been reported but you left out the ‘in this manner’ bit. CPS is clearly not operating in good faith here.

    They appear to me to be being vindictive and punitive to destroy the icky cult regardless of any actual wrongdoing.

    CAL (82f082)

  85. CAL, you may be right, or you may not. I certainly don’t put it past CPS to behave badly. But at this point, they (and the cops, both local and fed) know a whole lot more than we do and this case is going to play out over time. And let’s keep in mind that the call didn’t come in to CPS, it came in to a privately operated hotline that reported it to them.

    If they knew the call was fake and proceeded anyway, then it’s bad faith and then their warrant is no good. Otherwise, they did what they were supposed to do.

    Pablo (99243e)

  86. The case is going to play out over a very long time while the children grow up away from their families. Mission accomplished. Whether FLDS ever violated any law is irrelevant. The good guys have already won.

    I have a sick feeling that is the mindset of several actors in this drama.

    CAL (82f082)

  87. CAL #86,

    Not quite. The Court will hold an individual adversarial hearing in each case by June 5. The Court will hear evidence from the State, the parent(s), and the attorneys for each child. If the FLDS or the CPS have violated laws, it can and should be raised in these hearings.

    You paint a horrible picture, CAL, but there are other possibilities. For instance:

    At least 40 of the mothers have chosen to go to women’s shelters instead of returning to the FLDS compound. My guess is their attorneys told them they might not get custody of their children if they returned to the compound, but they have a better chance if they make new lives for themselves and their children in the outside world. That sounds like a good result to me, and it wouldn’t have happened without State intervention.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  88. And what happens when 400 hearings aren’t completed by June 5? The kids aren’t going to be sent back if they are behind. No way.

    It reminds me a bit of Waco, although props for not incinerating the children in their best interests, and Duke Lacrosse where all we heard were the prosecutions leaks and were assured that there must be more there or he wouldn’t be leaking like that and probably, going forward, the Day Care molestation cases from a decade (or two?) back when it turned out the court ordered shrinks brainwashed the kids into making false claims.

    Give them a couple months now and I am sure they will get (or claim to get to a willing news station) claims of abuse from some of the children. Videotape all state interaction with the kids starting now.

    CAL (82f082)

  89. DRJ #87,

    Forgot to say that you are making my point for me.

    Evidently, the State has intimidated at least 40 members to flee with their families without proving a single crime and you view this as a good thing.

    CAL (82f082)

  90. How do you conclude that they’ve been intimidated, CAL? On what evidence? Is it DRJ’s guess that their lawyers might have told them it’s in their best interest to do so?

    Pablo (99243e)

  91. DRJs hypothesis was that the women have been told they might not get their children back if they return home. There is no evidence on either side of anything yet so I was basing my comment on DRJs lauding of jackbooted thuggery.

    You have italicized ‘their lawyers’ so presumably you believe this is not State intimidation? Do you think their lawyers are giving them bad advice and not accurately reflecting the reality of their situation?

    The State has their children. The State will not return their children unless they comply with the wishes of the State. If you just had your child ripped from your arms, I think you might find that a tad intimidating.

    CAL (82f082)

  92. CAL – It seems inconceivable to you that any FLDS members could have been illegally abused or coerced. Blame seems only to be available to the state.

    Given the nature of the proven criminal conduct of Warren Jeffs as exposed in his recent capture, trial and incarceration, I find your one-sided arguments favoring the FLDS specious.

    Apogee (366e8b)

  93. Apogee,

    Please point out one instance where I said any such thing.

    CAL (82f082)

  94. How about #89?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  95. If their lawyers are telling them this, and their lawyers are familiar with the evidence, and their lawyers are acting in the best interest of their clients and advising them thusly, how is that jackbooted thuggery?

    Do you think their lawyers are giving them bad advice and not accurately reflecting the reality of their situation?

    No, I suspect it would be quite the opposite. Which is to say that those lawyers may well be aware that the FLDS folks have a world of hurt coming their way because of the evidence collected against them.

    If you just had your child ripped from your arms, I think you might find that a tad intimidating.

    I’ve had exactly that happen, by order of the state, ostensibly in the best interests of my child. It wasn’t. I’m fully aware of how wrong the state can get it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  96. Apogee,

    What about #89? You need to be more specific I am afraid. You see I reread it – it is fairly short – and it seems straightforward. That is, I completely failed to see the part where I said it was inconceivable that any FLDS members were anything other than saints.

    On the other hand, if you look to #72, you will see that in addition to a question I asked you about all their lawbreaking, I made a comment to the effect, “It may be an incredibly sleazy disgusting law breaking cult…” A statement that seems to include the idea that they may not all be saints quite clearly.

    CAL (82f082)

  97. Pablo,

    Sorry for your troubles and hope it worked out in the end.

    I don’t think the womens lawyers needed to know a thing to tell their clients that they had a better chance of getting their kids back if they didn’t go home. That is part of what is so wrong about all this. Regardless of any wrongdoing, put your head down, play along, and comply with any edict the state gives and maybe you get your children back. And the lawyers are right to give that advice because it is true. It doesn’t make it right though.

    CAL (82f082)

  98. CAL,

    I think you misunderstood my comment but Pablo clarified it. Thanks, Pablo.

    Do you have a grudge against the system, CAL? You seem to.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  99. CAL – first #97, illustrates my point. You state Regardless of any wrongdoing, put your head down, play along, and comply with any edict the state gives and maybe you get your children back.

    In your mind, the wrongdoing is obviously that of the state (unless you’re being specious, as I’ve already accused you), and there’s no mention that perhaps the legal counsel could be privy to information about the case whereby the advice is actually in the best interests of the parties involved, and not just blind obedience to a “jackbooted” state.

    As for your #72: “It may be an incredibly sleazy disgusting law breaking cult…”, I would ask: and just how do you ascertain the proof we all so adamantly demand of illegal behavior without removing the parties from an isolated, coercive and abusive atmosphere? Oh, I’m sure they’d cooperate willingly. Don’t know much about cults, do you?

    Apogee (366e8b)

  100. Thanks, CAL. it hasn’t worked out yet, but she’ll be 18 soon and I’ll be able to reconnect with her without the state or her mother’s interference. So we’ll see.

    Thing is, that that lawyerly advice probably wouldn’t be given in the absence of any wrongdoing. You could be right and you could be wrong. At this point, we don’t have enough information to know. But I’ll bet you dollars to dimes that the lawyers know a lot more than we do about what the evidence is and they probably wouldn’t advise them to act against their desires if there was no case against them. Let’s keep in mind that the whole world is watching this one.

    We do know a few things about FLDS and how they operate and we know that their “prophet” is currently locked up for mandating the statutory rape of a 14 year old at another compound and he’s facing charges in Arizona on 3 more such cases. There’s probable cause all over this “church” and for that reason, I’m willing to believe that the State of Texas may be acting properly here, pending a better look at the evidence.

    Pablo (99243e)


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