Vaccines and Autism
[Guest post by DRJ]
The government wall between vaccines and autism is starting to crumble, although just barely:
“Government health officials have conceded that childhood vaccines worsened a rare, underlying disorder that ultimately led to autism-like symptoms in a Georgia girl, and that she should be paid from a federal vaccine-injury fund.
Medical and legal experts say the narrow wording and circumstances probably make the case an exception – not a precedent for thousands of other pending claims.
The government “has not conceded that vaccines cause autism,” said Linda Renzi, the lawyer representing federal officials, who have consistently maintained that childhood shots are safe.
However, parents and advocates for autistic children see the case as a victory that may help certain others. Although the science on this is very limited, the girl’s disorder may be more common in autistic children than in healthy ones.”
The girl who is the subject of this case is now 9-years-old. In 2000, she received 5 vaccines in one day, aggravating an underlying mitochondrial condition that led to worsening brain function consistent with autism. The government did not address what about the vaccines was at fault.
I’ll say it for all the naysayers and save you the trouble: This is a rare abnormality. Vaccines do enormous good and we’d all be in trouble without them. The studies show vaccines are overwhelmingly safe, and they are an important tool in the medical arsenal. This is all true, however …
The problems are two-fold. First, we don’t have a good grasp of what abnormalities may be aggravated by vaccines. Second, by definition, children have poorly developed immune systems and vaccines can have unexpected adverse effects in people with very poor immune systems. In fact, the CDC Guide to Contraindications in Vaccines states that vaccines are contraindicated for people with disorders like HIV and severe immune deficiency, and I think it’s more difficult than some care to admit to know where the dividing lines should be drawn.
On the plus side, the medical community will have to deal with this now and that’s good.
NOTE: More at Volokh.com. I guess it’s possible that vaccines caused Hannah’s mitochondrial defect but I assumed she had a pre-existing defect that was aggravated by vaccines. Clearly, the first option is more troubling but even the second is cause for concern because it illustrates that pediatricians don’t know who can safely be vaccinated and who can’t.
— DRJ
That’s all true, DRJ, but the attacks on vaccination by and large center around claims about vaccines that are not supported by any evidence – such as the claims about the preservative Thimerasol causing autism. And those claims have resulted in children not receiving vaccinations without any of the specific contraindications you mention.
The cost-benefit ratio is just overwhelming in favor of childhood vaccinations – just ask any manufacturer of ironlung machines.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/6/2008 @ 5:01 pmIt’s ironic you chose the iron lung example, SPQR, since that’s exactly what our New Orleans’ trained pediatrician said when we asked him about vaccinating our youngest child. We later learned our child was severely immune deficient but the doctors didn’t realize it. He is now autistic and his symptoms started days after he was vaccinated.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/6/2008 @ 5:15 pmI’m sorry for your trouble DRJ but vaccines do not cause autism. In Ireland a couple of years ago, vaccination rates were down to about 55% of kids entering school. Whooping cough is coming back. Measles and rubella are coming back. Personally, all my kids are vaccinated and double vaccinated (they had both Salk and Sabin polio vaccines when they were kids. First the Salk, then the Sabin when it came out). I would say let the naysayer’s kids get paralyzed except that “herd immunity” does make a difference in eradicating these diseases. The kids with impaired immune systems should not get vaccines such as smallpox but we don’t give that anymore. What we are seeing is the power of coincidence. Routine immunizations are given about the same time that autism is recognized. That’s all it is. I suppose a live vaccine given to a kid with impaired immunity could cause the disease it is supposed to prevent. There were cases of paralytic polio, for example, with the live polio (Sabin) vaccine. That is NOT autism.
Mike K (86bddb) — 3/6/2008 @ 5:42 pmIt’s important to remember that even if vaccines don’t cause autism in the general population, they may still cause autism in certain circumstances (such as in children with extremely weak immune systems).
It’s not good enough to “refute” the link between autism and vaccines, because the link may be more subtle than first thought.
Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:00 pmIt’s not the vaccine.
It’s the preservative Thimerisol.
Some time ago, Big Pharm decided that they could
reduce their cost, thereby increasing profit, if mulitple use vials could be utilized. (cost per unit)
Thimerisol is primarily mercury, the most toxic
substance known.
There’s the rub. Ipso Facto.
Semanticleo (f828ed) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:06 pmBTW;
My understanding is they have discontinued the use of Thimerisol.
What is beyond my understanding is how Physicians
Semanticleo (f828ed) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:25 pmpumped it into infants and toddlers with nary
a thought about the implications
Mike K – Did you read the article?
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:27 pmSemanticleo-
Thimerisol was removed from vaccines years ago, and rates of autism have still gone up.
“mercury, the most toxic substance know” uhh NO!
We covered that in high school chemistry. Please, stay quiet about subjects you know nothing about.
Two minutes on Google got me this website:
http://users.aol.com/DaveMcCall/mostoxic.htm
Seriously, type in “most toxic substance known”.
tyree (fedfcb) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:37 pmI’m far more scared of Hydroflouric Acid than mercury. It goes right through your skin, doesn’t noticeably burn at first, and has a nasty habit of leeching calcium out of your bones and cells until your heart stops. Fun stuff.
Taltos (4dc0e8) — 3/6/2008 @ 6:56 pmWell, I’ll be goshdarned. Semanticleo now supports John McCain.
FWIW: the alleged thimerisol connection is pretty conclusively refuted by the epidemiology studies. The larger question of vaccines and autism remains very much open.
I happen to believe that vaccines can do harm to the immune system in certain people; in fact, I think I’m one of them, because there’s a possible link in my own case between a MMR vaccine and the onset of Crohn’s disease a few months later. DRJ’s son is an extreme case, and I’m a relatively mild case, in the pile of anecdotal evidence that suggests that people with autism have higher incidences of immune system problems. I’ve never seen a formal study that proves that, however; nor have I seen any evidence that suggest or counters the idea that people with immune system problems have higher rates of autism. Vaccines may be a trigger that sparks the problem in both cases. But it’s not the only possible trigger. Again, I think I provide anecdotal evidence: I demonstrated hyperlexia, echolalia, and some other characteristics seen on the spectrum before I was vaccinated. (Aside to DRJ: However, would something as systemic as autism really need only a few days to start manifesting?) The current case doesn’t affect 85 percent of those of us on the autistic spectrum (of course, those that are affected–14 percent–isn’t a small number. And it leaves out of the calculation the theory (which can co exist with the vaccine theory) that a number of environmental factors in the pre-natal and early years of the child can trigger autism in children with weak immune systems. And no matter what environmental factors are at work, there are also other causes of autism, as can be seen by the fact that an extraordinary number of blind people (I’ve seen the statistic of 1 in 3) are autistic.
IOW, the science is very much up in the air was to what migh be the causes or triggers of autism, just like climate change; and there are some people who would like to politicize it in the same wasy as climate change.
kishnevi (202292) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:07 pmKishnevi,
You make several important points and I agree with all of them. For instance, vaccines are probably only one of several potential triggers. Others may be environmental toxins and even some illnesses. Researchers at the NIH and elsewhere have been looking at these issues for at least 4 years (that I know of) and probably longer.
Cases like this suggest a person has to be immunologically or genetically susceptible for the trigger to kick in. We already know that vaccines can play havoc with bad immune systems but diagnosing poor immune systems in children is difficult. As for the genetic issues, some researchers think the issue may not be “bad” genes as much as the presence or absence of genetic modifiers — that is, special combinations of genes that work differently in different people and even at different times. Thus, a person who reacts badly to an immunological insult may react differently if the insult occurred a month earlier or later. In other words, the insult may result in neurological complications (like autism or Guillain-Barre’ Syndrome) or intestinal complications (like Crohns) depending on when it occurs, immune status, and/or other factors that we don’t yet understand.
You can see why this is so hard to track down.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:26 pmThat strikes me as a collectivist point of view. I have no idea if vaccines cause or contribute to autism. But I do have an idea about who ought to be responsible to make health care decisions for children. It should be parents – not Mike K. You can talk about “herd immunity” for your barnyard. My children (who were all innoculated, thank you) are not part of your “herd.”
Don (c9e244) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:28 pmI would think, even as a lay-person, that anything that would hamper the immune system would mean you don’t get a vaccine. I mean, a vaccine is nothing more than a weakened or “off” strain of whatever disease you are trying to protect against. Weakened immune system vs weakened virus…
Sorry, that’s just my thinking on it.
I’m not being critical or judgemental or anything, swear to god, I’m just sayin’, you know? Why would anyone in the medical field even think there wouldn’t be some sort of link between the two?
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:31 pmDRJ, I’m very sorry for your youngest’s experience. There are a lot of medical procedures that have great benefit for many and catastrophic results for a few. Those tragedies are very difficult for those upon whom they fall. That is the best reason for shifting the question of compensation as the program referenced in your original post does.
In general, Autism is a complex matter, complicated by the fact that it is diagnosable soon after the age in which vaccination is beginning – so post hoc ergo propter hoc often leads us to erroneous conclusions. Further we are seeing increased diagnoses of autism ( in place of vaguer labels of mental retardation ) because of better trained pediatricians. I’m of the opinion that there is no actual increase in its actual frequency.
That said, Semanticleo’s contribution is as usual regrettably quite outdated and wrong.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:41 pmThat said, Semanticleo’s contribution is as usual regrettably quite outdated and wrong.
But this time it’s notable that she’s agreeing with the Republican (McCain). 🙂
kishnevi (3cf898) — 3/6/2008 @ 7:46 pm“Even if thimerosal is conclusively found to be safe, the FDA did the right thing. In 1999, when thimerosal was pulled, public health officials were just beginning to realize that autism rates were rising frighteningly and inexplicably. Meanwhile, additions to the routine infant immunization schedule during the 1990s meant that children were receiving up to four times as much mercury as the EPA deemed safe — and they weren’t getting it gradually, but in massive, sudden doses. This caught public health officials by surprise: somehow, not a single person had sat down, read the labels on the bottles and did the ninth-grade algebra needed to figure out just how much mercury children were receiving from their vaccines.
Such an oversight was criminally irresponsible — not in legal terms, but in principle. Though large-scale epidemiology hadn’t been done, an extensive body of literature — including some from Eli Lilly, thimerosal’s manufacturer — described the additive as a potentially dangerous neurotoxin that could accumulate in the brain. The company’s 1999 Material Safety Data Sheet noted that the effect of maternal exposure “includes fetal changes; mercury poisoning may occur; [and] exposure in children may cause mild to severe mental retardation.” A 1991 internal Merck memo even suggested that thimerosal be taken from their vaccines.”
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/vaccine-experts.html
Methylmercury, ethylmercury. It’s freakin’ MERCURY!
It is stored in tissue. Some have less tolerance than others for smaller or greater quantities. There is anecdotal evidence males have less tolerance than females, hence the greater incidence of autism in that gender.
Let the CDC and all sorts of Medical Orgs defend it’s use. It’s only purpose was to make doses more cost effective.
Semanticleo (f828ed) — 3/6/2008 @ 8:20 pmI’ll point out the obvious first. The child in this article wasn’t diagnosed with autism she was diagnosed with an unspecified autism like disease, so the link that you are attempting to make may or may not be valid.
If I remember correctly there was a Danish study which compared rates of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated and found no difference in rates.
I am not going to claim that autism is never triggered in anyone by a vaccination in very rare cases it probably is, but as far as it being a primary cause in many people I highly doubt it or we would see differences in rates between populations.
chad (582404) — 3/6/2008 @ 8:21 pmI’d just like to know if the DRJ that made the post, is the DRJ that wrote comment 2:
“It’s ironic you chose the iron lung example, SPQR, since that’s exactly what our New Orleans’ trained pediatrician said when we asked him about vaccinating our youngest child. We later learned our child was severely immune deficient but the doctors didn’t realize it. He is now autistic and his symptoms started days after he was vaccinated.
Comment by DRJ — 3/6/2008 @ 5:15 pm”
Mike L (1183b6) — 3/6/2008 @ 8:33 pmYes, it is and I am.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/6/2008 @ 8:42 pmDRJ, no doubt its been a hard road and yet it blesses me so much to know that your son has a mother like you to see him through. Your posts and comments evidence a thoughtful, compassionate person of strong faith. Obviously God knew what you – and your son – would need for the journey.
Dana (3b723a) — 3/6/2008 @ 9:13 pmDana (and others),
Thanks for your comments. This is not the life we would have chosen for our son but it’s amazing how well things work out if you let them. We have a child who needs us every day and it’s wonderful to be needed. In addition, his experiences have enabled researchers and doctors to help others, and it’s a rare blessing to be able to help others live better lives.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/6/2008 @ 9:27 pmNeed anymore reasons to stop all this forced innoculation of kids BAN RITLIN
krazy kagu (4ca035) — 3/6/2008 @ 9:51 pmDRJ–sorry about your son; I hope you know the support that’s out there from various people who read your posts.
Semanticleo: “Methylmercury, ethylmercury. It’s freakin’ MERCURY!”
This is chemically irresponsible. Tiny changes to chemical composition can drastically alter poisonousness. Mercuric sulfide is harmless, and pure mercury is not that poisonous, while organomercury compounds like methyl or ethylmercury are deadly in tiny amounts. In short, do your homework.
Russell (5ecf4a) — 3/6/2008 @ 9:55 pmsorry to hear about your son drj, good luck. amazing how many doctors read this blog and are so quick to pipe up “post hoc ergo propter hoc”.
semanticleo, i’m afraid you just flunked chemistry. organomercury is way more toxic than metallic mercury. google “dimethyl mercury” for the story of how a researcher died a slow, agonizing death after a single tiny droplet of dimethyl mercury got through her latex glove. there are other metals more toxic than mercury, google “thallium”.
assistant devil's advocate (406bd7) — 3/6/2008 @ 10:07 pmAnd infact, plain ol’ pure mucury can be swallowed without any ill effects, assuming you have no ulcers…
Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 3/6/2008 @ 10:19 pm“What is beyond my understanding is how Physicians
pumped it into infants and toddlers with nary
a thought about the implications”
says “he who cannot be bothered with the facts”
Yeah, my father, my uncle , my cousin and all of the doctors I know, never think about anything. They just open the boxes from Big-Pharma and start shooting away.
My father saved so many patients lives over the years that at least 6 of them named children after him. He put in 60 hour weeks for decades in the care of his patients. He visited them in the hospital on Saturday and Sunday until the day he retired. And still some people try to smear and entire profession with their ignorant rants. I have read a lot of prejudiced words in my day, but for me, Semantcleo has defined a new low.
tyree (2c43ad) — 3/7/2008 @ 6:42 am“ethylmercury are deadly in tiny amounts. In short, do your homework.”
Russell;
are you an organic chemist?
ethylmercury is the much vaunted (pharma and Med Orgs) ‘safe’ ingredient found in Thimerosol.
Skipped that class, eh?
Semanticleo (c8bb44) — 3/7/2008 @ 9:14 amSematicleo is neither an organic chemist nor a pharmaceutical researcher.
But it plays one on the internet.
Techie (ed20d9) — 3/7/2008 @ 9:35 amSemanticleo, the thimerasol link has been conclusively debunked. Your alarmist junk science is not helpful to this discussion.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/7/2008 @ 11:30 amThere, fixed that for ya’
JD (75f5c3) — 3/7/2008 @ 11:47 amautism rates were rising frighteningly and inexplicably.
kishnevi (6273ad) — 3/7/2008 @ 11:51 amhence the greater incidence of autism in that gender.
Actually, the reasons behind both of those have at least as much to do with changes in diagnostic procedures as with mercury or any other toxin. Ute Frith, in her book Autismgives one statistic; in plain English, the rate for diagnosis of undifferentiated mental retardation declined over the same period and the same rate as diagnosis of autism increased. Proper conclusion is that people who used to be diagnosed as simple mental retardation are now diagnosed as autistic. Semanticleo’s conclusion, of course, would be that the same mercury that triggers autism must cure mental retardation. Take you pick.
The apparent preponderanc of autistic males over autistic females seems to be consistent throughout history, as far as we can track it; but it also may be due to the fact that females may be able to mask those traits better; and in fact in recent decades the number of autistic females seems to be climbing compared to those of males.
In one word, it’s the diagnosis. And there is nothing frightening or inexplicable about it.
.” Your alarmist junk science”
You fail the smell test, at least as a smeller.
Who is debunking the thimerosol link to autism?
Is there any objective source providing that ‘research’?
Please don’t tell me medical orgs are objective.
In no way do they want the entire medical and pharmaceutical establishment to found in any way,
liable.
Why was it removed?
“While the review found no evidence of adverse effects caused by thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor local hypersensitivity reactions (as explained above), the assessment determined that the use of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines might result in the intake of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded recommended guidelines from EPA. The amounts, however, do not exceed the recommended guidelines set by FDA, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, and the World Health Organization. Of note, such guidelines contain safety factors and are meant as starting points for evaluation of mercury exposure, not absolute levels above which toxicity can be expected to occur.”
http://www.fda.gov/ola/2000/vaccines.html
Yes, that is the alarmist federal agency known as
the FDA.
There are several good articles at the following.
Strangely the CDC article confirming Evidence
of Harm has been scrubbed.
http://www.thimerosal-news.com/
You people are just to naive to be believed.
Semanticleo (f828ed) — 3/7/2008 @ 4:20 pmDRJ – my sympathies. My dear brother and sister-in-law have an eighteen-year-old son with Asperger’s. They have faced many challenges raising their son.
Some time ago, the WSJ ran an article linking autism with parents who had children later in life and had strong math/engineering/accounting backgrounds.
I realize this is strictly anecdotal evidence, but my brother had two roommates who were also accounting majors (all three went on to become CPA’s). All three men had sons when in their thirties, two had boys with autism, the other had a severely disabled son.
This theory may bear further investigation.
Lesley (c36902) — 3/7/2008 @ 8:56 pmThanks, Lesley, and you make a good point. I’m familiar with studies like that and one of my favorite philosophers and writers, Thomas Sowell, wrote a fascinating book on Late-Talking Children that addresses very similar issues.
The cause-effect mechanism is mysterious but my guess is that people who have autism spectrum disorders (which seem to primarily damage the left side of the brain) therefore find it easier to succeed in right-brained activities like math and music. In addition, the studies and anecdotal evidence you reference support that there is a genetic component involved.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/7/2008 @ 9:07 pmSemanticleo, you’ve failed once again to improve my opinion of you. Not least because the FDA article does not in fact support your claims.
The bottom line remains that their is not a causal link between thimerasol and autism, there is no difference in rates between populations that received thimerasol-preserved vaccination and those that did not and removal of the thimerasol has not reduced autism rates.
SPQR (26be8b) — 3/7/2008 @ 9:11 pmDRJ – my nephew is fascinated with airports and airplanes. He can tell you what any carrier is doing at any airport around the world AT ANY TIME. He will spend hours watching videos of planes taking off and landing (yes, such videos are actually available) at many major airports all over the world and devours airline schedules.
As with many people with Asperger’s, he is very intelligent but social interactions are extremely problematic for him. He has huge difficulties living in the present. He focuses almost exclusively on “what’s next” and becomes extremely upset when plans change.
Another problem for my brother and sister-in-law is that they have only the one son and find it extremely difficult to ascertain what problems are related to the autism versus just being a typical, jerky teenager. I feel so helpless to be of any comfort to them, especially to offer advice.
At any rate, I am well aware of many of the challenge you and your family face on a daily basis. May the Lord bless and keep you all.
Lesley (c36902) — 3/7/2008 @ 9:26 pmLesley,
I appreciate your good wishes and I hope you will let me respond in kind. Don’t worry about offering advice or comfort to your brother and sister-in-law. It sounds like they are doing a great job with your nephew. If you agree, tell them! Honest encouragement and feedback is the best advice you can give them. They may seem like an unusual family to you but no one has the perfect family.
To me, the most important thing you said is that your nephew has something he’s interested in. Being interested in something is not only a sign of intellect but it’s also something you can use to build a relationship. Consider joining your nephew in watching planes — not only would it let you get to know each other but shared experiences and interests might help him with socialization skills.
Hopefully it wouldn’t be that difficult for you to do. I think planes are fascinating, don’t you? Maybe you could find some “How Things Work” videos on planes, a DVD set on how to fly a plane, or if you don’t live nearby perhaps you could visit the same internet websites on planes. I bet your nephew would love watching and talking about them with you, either in person or via email or phone. Getting autistics to share interests and activities with others is a good tool to increase socialization.
Finally, a shared interest might also create a special bond between you and your nephew, and that’s the best gift you could give your brother and sister-in-law.
DRJ (a431ca) — 3/7/2008 @ 10:52 pmDRJ,
I’m sorry to hear about your youngest. If it’s any consolation, I have Asperger’s and I have been able to live a better than normal life. (I am always grateful for the help I received) Social skills are still a problem, but I can work successfully as a teacher, so I must not be that bad. I understand your concern, and it seems you understand the idea of multiple factors of causation. I think the FDA was terrified of people refusing vaccination out of pointless fear. Vaccination is certainly not a sufficient cause for autism, and probably is not always necessary, but it still may be a contributing factor.
Semanticleo,
I hold an M.S. in Chemistry and I have completed plenty of coursework on the toxicity of the heavy metals. I was honored to have had straight As in ever organic chemistry class I took. Perhaps this will be enough.
Methyl mercury and the organomercury compounds are extremely nasty and have demonstrable neurotoxic effects. These are collectively known as Minamata disease, after a tragic mass poisoning at Minamata Bay, Japan. (Do they have vastly increased autism? I’d expect it if your theory was true.)
However, ADA was correct to point out that mercury is not the most toxic element, and that mercury’s toxicity is greatly enhanced with an organic group attached. Mercury amalgam is very safe – Zinc amalgam is actually a preferred cleanup method for mercury spills. Thallium, cadmium, beryllium are all extremely toxic metals. As the most toxic substance, I believe botulism toxic holds that title. How could you forget cyanide? That’s not considering the radioisotopes (Some Polonium-210 with your vodka, comrade?) or carcinogens (pick your favorite) Your statements are without merit here.
Yes, Thiomerosal has a ethylmercury group, but that is bound to a sulfide link to sodium benzoate. Hydrogen sulfides are actually known as mercaptans (for mercurium captan) for their affinity for mercury ions. This is not the same free ethylmercury. I’ve got to get going so I make it to work, so you’ll have to wait on any detailed toxicology/toxicokinetics studies.
OmegaPaladin (78ab96) — 3/8/2008 @ 5:32 amPerhaps individual vaccinations do not cause autism. However, a combination of vaccinations, all at relatively the same time, along with a depressed immune system or some other developmental condition, might. When I was a child (I’m 41) I had 3 vaccinations, now children get over a dozen. We should be examining not the individual vaccines but the cumulative effects of them.
Shelley (d65ab2) — 3/28/2008 @ 10:48 am1) The government is not the legislator of science. If they were to rule that pi = 3 they would be wrong, if they were to rule that the world is flat they would be wrong, ruling that vaccines cause autism merely means that a bunch of lawyers have given their opinion on a scientific issue; no more no less.
ZeroBomb (c0764c) — 4/1/2008 @ 6:19 pm2) Even since mercury is removed from the vaccines autism rates have continued to climb. How can it continue to cause high rates of autism when it is no longer administered to children?
3) Parents who have decided vaccines caused their child’s autism have committed about the most blatant “post hoc ergo propter hoc” error imaginable.