Debate Open Thread
McCain looks supercilious.
Romney is doing very well, I think. Too bad the rumor says he’s not advertising for Super Tuesday. Is the rumor a dirty trick, or is it real? Stay tuned.
P.S. A Patterico reader will be in Frank Luntz’s focus group on Fox News at 6:45 p.m. Pacific. He or she doesn’t want to be identified further, but you will know him or her, because Patterico readers are a cut above.
UPDATE: Romney just let McCain have it for misrepresenting his position on a date for withdrawal. McCain sat there with that arrogant little smirk on his face. I’m sorry, but McCain is doing very badly in this debate, in my estimation.
UPDATE x2: Here is Romney’s quote on the timetables and milestones:
I also think, though, that Romney is also not being entirely forthright about what he meant — he was asked about timetables for withdrawal. His distinction was between public and private timetables.
UPDATE x3: Huck’s whining about being left out of the debate. Not very impressive.
UPDATE x4: McCain’s little crack about people losing their jobs when Romney ran businesses was a low blow. But Romney’s little cackle in response was not very smart and did not come across well.
John Ellis at RealClearPolitics has the following to say on this point:
“Mitt has to make the call. McCain is going to sweep the Northeastern primary states next week. Huckabee is going to roll along down South, thus denying Romney traction there. The only way to overcome this pincer movement is through vast expenditures of cash for television advertising. The only money available to Romney at the moment is his own. So the question stands: will he write the big check? Or will he say to himself: good money after bad? It’s a decision only he can make. If he decides not to write the check, McCain’s the nominee.”
JayHub (0a6237) — 1/30/2008 @ 5:56 pmI suspect it’s a VERY dirty trick.
And par for the McCain course.
And I loved the Reagan “better off” question. It would have been very topical if BUSH WERE RUNNING AGAIN, YOU THUNDERING MORONS!!!
Damn Liberal questions…
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/30/2008 @ 5:57 pmIs it too late to get Pattrick Frey on sheet?
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/30/2008 @ 6:29 pmCrazy Uncle Ron is absolutely hillarious. He reminds me of people talking to themselves loudly on street corners.
daleyrocks (906622) — 1/30/2008 @ 6:38 pmHe wishes he was that sane..
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/30/2008 @ 6:39 pmLets be honest here, Huckabee is clearly the best candidate for the republican party, hands down. Unfortunately tonight he was not allowed a lot of air time due to McCain and Romneys lead in the race. However, the people of Iowa were correct when they voted for him. The more that this guy talks, the more you like him. I like Mike.
patrick (acd9c0) — 1/30/2008 @ 6:55 pmHuck’s the best unless you talk to Arkansas Republicans. He left the state party in ruins, much like Bush with the national party. He’d be a smoother talking George Bush
Banjo (b5278d) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:04 pmWe are a family of upstanding, conservative and patriotic people when in 1994 we wanted to leave California to raise our daughter in a ‘Family Friendly’ enviroment so we lived for 8.5 years in Utah (the seat of the Mormon religion) where our family was treated like second class citizens. That church runs every aspect of the state government there and when jobs got tight right after the Olympics, employers accessed church records to see who were members, then gave jobs to only Mormon church members. The Mormon church charges their church members 10% of their income according to the employer records they have full access to. If they are not paid up, each April, they are sent a bill and if not paid to the last penny, the church members cannot have their children married in the Mormon Temple or their relatives burried by the church. This is only one bizzar practice that the Mormon church enforces. Things got so unbearable for our daughter, who started in grade school and left in High School, that we finally had to leave Utah to come back to California. Our daughter still suffers from the horrible treatment she recieved from students and teachers alike. We could NEVER trust a Mormon to be fair to all people or not put his church’s demands before what is right and lawful.
Julie (e82c2a) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:10 pmI can not believe McCain is ahead in delegates right now, especially after the debate. While I think the war and foreign policy is important, there are other issues just as important and McCain has a one track mind – everything leads back to that. The question about why he would be a great leader for our economy, where does he go but back to being in the military and his experience of that nature.
Tracey (b8d507) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:11 pmI agree – most mormons I have really got to know are predjudice and fake.
Louie (e82c2a) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:11 pmEven the Christian in me can not support Huck.
His assertation that we should basicly make christianity the State Religion frightens me.
And while he’s not as insane as Ron, that isn’t saying much.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:16 pmOdd, most Mormons I know are the most kind and decent people I’ve ever known in my life.
And I’m not kidding there. One especially counts as one of the top three men I know. Maybe the best.
And being in Utah, being from central IL, it was amazing to me.
Not even Texas had nicer, more helpful people. It really was amazing to me.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:18 pmI am 22, Puerto Rican and a conservative who works 2 jobs and is in college. I think Governor Huckabee is the best candidate for President. I can count on him to be honest and stick with his convictions. We need a strong, unwaivering man in office who can lead this country in an honest way and who genuinely cares for his country and all people.
Jessie (e82c2a) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:20 pmHi Scott – I asked a neighbor who was a mormon and moved there from california what mormons thought of non-mormons – to which she candidly replied “We look at non-mormons as either one of two kinds of people: 1. Potential Mormons or 2. heathens going to hell.” I would say you might be in the first catagory. Sorry.
Julie (e82c2a) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:23 pmask any baptist if they think mormons are going to hell. ask any catholic if they think wiccans are going to hell. its kinda part of having religious convictions. a person believes theirs is the correct one and most others are doomed to hell fire and brimstone.
chas (fb7ad4) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:31 pmIf everyone agreed on everything and if everyone had the same faith it would be a boring world wouldn’t it? I have lived in Utah, had a son in school, and we had no problems – everyone was very nice. My husband worked with Mormons and had no problems. My son actually wants to move to Utah and go to school he loved it so much. We are Christians and no one was ever rude, tried to “convert” us, or such. You are going to have people everywhere that are prejudice and fake no matter their faith.
Tracey (b8d507) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:37 pm“I agree – most mormons I have really got to know are predjudice and fake.”
Harry Reid seems like that, but he is a convert and I don’t know him personally.
My experience has been exactly the opposite than the quote above.
daleyrocks (906622) — 1/30/2008 @ 7:40 pmHow many debates are there? It seems like we’ve already had 50.
DRJ (517d26) — 1/30/2008 @ 8:04 pmI don’t know what Julie’s smoking… I lived in Utah for quite sometime as a non mormon, and never saw what she’s described. Plan on going back someday…
Andy (caa8a6) — 1/30/2008 @ 8:19 pmWhat I’m more concerned about than religion is choosing a candidate that I think has the potential to move our country back to a positive bearing. And I just think that John McCain will only move our country back…
Ron Paul is not an option (I like the Crazy Uncle Ron post above).
And I’m not kosher with much about Huck. Sure he’s an affable guy, but he left Arkansas in shambles.
McCain has many strengths and is a man of strong principles. He is fiscally conservative, when it comes to big government spending and special interest groups. No one will make sure our soldiers and their families are taken care of like he will. He will not compromise his principles for any party. Any man who refuses to leave his fellow soldiers behind, will never let us down. Romney is a fake and Huck is not qualified. McCain has been trying to change Washington and big government for years. Just look at his voting record.
Cindy (f6a777) — 1/30/2008 @ 8:28 pmWow, Patterico. You seem to have an influx of the ___________ (insert your candidate) spam bots tonight.
JD (fc7319) — 1/30/2008 @ 8:33 pmThat Harry Reid comment seemed to stump the anti-Romney trolls, life-long conservatives I’m sure.
daleyrocks (906622) — 1/30/2008 @ 8:37 pmCindy…
McCain-Feingold
McCain-Kennedy
McCain opposing and voting against tax cuts.
McCain supporting amnesty.
That is his record, and all of it recent.
Limiting free political speech (what exactly were the Founding Fathers talking about in the First Amendment, anyway???)…Big government, bigger taxes, less money for the working people, ignoring laws and supporting illegal actions by illegal aliens….
Damn, what a record….
reff (99666d) — 1/30/2008 @ 9:13 pmPat, you’ve got this wrong. There was lots of talk at the time of _nothing-to-do-with-withdrawal_ “timetables and milestones” even among supporters of the war and the President. Even the Bush administration itself signed _public_ milestones and timetables for the Iraq government, and Mitt is always saying it it the plural, not a “_timetable_ for withdrawal”, but again and again “timetables and milestones” for what the Iraqi’s have to get done, the sort of thing Bush actually did _publicly_. Mitt doesn’t say a word about a schedule for withdrawal.
A pundit can spin this anyway he wants, but Romney doesn’t say or imply a singular _timetable_ for withdrawal, either public or private.
PestoPundit (ff5e16) — 1/30/2008 @ 9:53 pmLets be honest here, Huckabee is clearly the best candidate for the republican party, hands down.
If the Republicans want to nominate William Jennings Bryan, they ought to dig up the real one–not nominate the cheap knock-off. Fortunately, the vast majority of Republicans don’t want to do either.
M. Scott Eiland (b66190) — 1/30/2008 @ 11:19 pmpatterico readers are a cut above…
that got me to laughing. stop it!
long ago, i was a senior in high school and friend of a young woman being brought up by very conservative parents, who sent her to brigham young university because they feared the influence of “hippies”. i told her, you’re coming back a mormon, that’s what they do to people over there. she said, oh no, we’re staunch presbyterians. fast forward to the first winter break: she’s back, she’s mormon and now she’s trying to convert her parents. i’m querying her in her living room, is it true that mormon couples get to be gods of their own universe after they die in this universe here, and if so, who prevails in man-wife godly disputes in this new, very special universe? she reluctantly allowed as to how the male, with his inherent biological superiority, would prevail (i’m barely holding my sides in as i type this), and i said something to the effect that if her parents converted and wound up gods of their own universe, i knew which god would have the last word. from the kitchen, where we were being eavesdropped, came a loud, feminine cackle.
assistant devil's advocate (227682) — 1/30/2008 @ 11:35 pmI could write a book about the Mormons and non Mormons that live/move here.
I live in a tiny town in UT. One that was originally settled as an experiment of Brighams. The test was to determine if indeed a small settlement could be isolated and feed nothing but the churches line of scat how well that community would prevail.
This was set up because the similar community 50 miles to the north did not totally succeed so well, so some of them were sent here to repeat the experiment.
Actuals varied, but basically ended up the same.
When I moved here at age 8, it was probably 97% Mormon, 50 yrs later maybe 10 points less. I made new friends at a new school, and after about a week some of them openly told me they could not play with me because I was not Mormon. Edict from their parents. Of course there is a huge “Jack” Mormon population among them. Those are the folks that are indiscernible from anybody else, smoke, drink, or both, have fun, and do not regularly attend church. Just do not EVER say something bad about the church to them, as they are still Mormons!
Yes it still goes on today, though formally the church frowns on such, it still happens.
In Utah much community information gets shared via the churches and attending the many meetings they have you are informed. If you don’t, then you can get the feeling of being left out. I hear that complaint a bunch from folks that just moved here. They get a feeling of being left out or intentionally not informed.
It’s not that such is wrong, it’s just the way allot of public communications are in UT. It has changed allot and continues to do so today.
Many people move here after being exposed to Mormons that do not live here, well many of those same Mormons can find it difficult to manage here as well. They are used to having to be the Mormon Example and when they return, they are too good. Perception only. The two groups really are quite different.
Bit in reality, they are no different from the Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics or any close knit community where a specific religion is predominant. One could as well drag the political parties into it as well, or green groups, believers in the church of global warming.
Dogmatic!
I’ve known many move ins that get upset just because somebody knocks on their door and offers to teach and convert them. Like the Jehovah Witness, with much finer specimens of the homo sapien species though.
If you come here with a faith of your own, and polietly inform those seeking you out for conversion that you are not desirous of their advances, they will stop! But one must know that the part of the culture of Mormons is to seek converts! Every one that currently is a Mormon will at some level feel you out for such.
For the most part those I see that think there is some organized movement against them, well are full of crap. With an exception, if you come here with a chip on your shoulder and do nothing but slam Mormons at every chance you get, well wander down a street in Watts and holler Ni****! I’ve witnessed a bunch of that type of behavior as well.
What is that old slogan, When in Rome, do as the Romans do?
Jacobs shares a very true observation and one that is by far the more common place tale about Utahn’s in general. Just plain decent folks. Shirt off their backs if needed.
BTW if you convert, your number goes to the top of church duty volunteers! 🙂
As to the higher universe thing, they call it the celestial kingdom. Mormons have several levels of heaven. BUT you must perform earthly duties in order to attain such. That in a nut shell is one element that contradicts typical Christian beliefs and causes the LDS to be labeled as a cult. Christianity as a general rule teaches that that salvation is by faith not works! Mormonism strongly affirms that salvation is attained by works. Jesus said “who so ever hath faith in me shall be granted everlasting life”. (er sumptin purtty close to that, oh and normally associated with “and is baptized”, which was by an over eager scribe in the way back machine).
But do know that Mormons are not the only ones that teach salvation by works..
Most Christian churches have a professional clergy, folks trained in a variety of fields. Mormons are a lay ministry, where a ward bishop is chosen by some group in the ward, and in many cases are some biz guy that does well with his biz or such. Every now and again they really get lucky and get a real good feller to run the ward. (A ward is like x hundreds of people, many church buildings support multiple wards). I’ve a friend that was converting that got asked by a Mormon bishop, since she was a single mother, if she had sex with others, how often, if she masturbated, then he got like personal. Not the first time I’ve heard of such. Oh she bailed.
But as an end to the Mormons rant I must say this.
Julie, you are so full of crap your eyes are brown, possibly green!
No business ever contacted church offices for membership information prior to employing! 10% tithing is a number that almost all churches sets as a recommended donation level for members. Nobody ever sent you a bill did they? No they send runners out on the first Sunday of each month to seek a direct request for tithing, answer the door, most Mormons, jack or not, will pay something, non’s get real. There is no annual bill sent, and the church is not eligible to view your 1040’s or any other employment information either. In fact all of your claims about services being restricted due to non payment of tithing are nothing but rumor, in fact worse, totally untrue!
No the single biggest problem I see with Mormons, is that they can’t see themselves as humans before Mormon. They are people first, such comes with all the failings that people have, love, lust, infidelity, great work, bad habits, the gambit is run. They are just people, but most of them are still a slight cut above many I’ve been around waving a different flag. Many of them are a massive cut above the norm.
Oh crap this was about the debates!
Mccaine came off as pretty close to the old man wipe that he has become. All his I’ve been in teh military and lead some flyers and such. BS is what such boils down to. Hey dude, ya got yer ass shot down!
The mods gave very little time to Paul or Huck. GAWD I wished the only way we could interact with Paul was the written word, cuz he sure sounds like an ass when he opens his mouth, and I’m sure he is not at all like that, but he seems to lack the ability to collect a thought and send out an informative sentence. Or even listen to the question he was asked. It’s not that he is wrong, it’s that he is as scatterd as #9 shot in a 12 gauge, or comes across as such.
Still he is the only one running that will challenge the status quo.
I heard one today and if it happens I’ll share the link, promised the blogger I would. His observations are that Huck is not running for POTUS, for VPOTUS, and gonna hang his coat on McCaine at the right time. Interesting possibility for sure, and not out of the realm either. Though tonight, he did not seem to be all that close to anybody else, lots of ego flowing across the stage.
Mitt, GAWD he did seem to come across well. But the mods allowed the fact finding mission to consume way too much time. I mean Google was handy andy, move on!
TC (1cf350) — 1/31/2008 @ 3:48 amThen you would not know me very well at all.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/31/2008 @ 5:42 amI should say that the mormon couple and their mormon buddy that I roomed with for about 3 months never once, in the entire time I knew them, tried to convert me.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/31/2008 @ 5:43 amI thought Romney’s response to the jobs thing was OK – at first, I thought it was meant to be a friendly dig/throwaway line, myself.
I’m currently backing McCain, but Romney clearly won the debate. (Huckabee is a terrific speaker; his response to the last Reagan question was great, and if he were not a corrupt, nutty, theocrat, he would still be in play.)
My concern with McCain has always been his temperment, and he didn’t do well today. It’s unfortunate.
–JRM
JRM (355c21) — 1/31/2008 @ 7:17 am“Wow, Patterico. You seem to have an influx of the ___________ (insert your candidate) spam bots tonight.”
– JD
Seriously. Who falls for this “testimonial” nonsense anyway? Buy airtime and endorse it, assholes.
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