Colorado County Sheriff will Officially Celebrate Christmas
[Guest post by DRJ]
A county sheriff in Colorado plans to decorate a Christmas tree on county property to make the point that America is a Christian nation and most people like it that way:
“To heck with white lights and an all-inclusive “holiday” celebration as touted by a Fort Collins citizens group, the Larimer County sheriff said this week.
Sheriff Jim Alderden believes such a secular event runs counter to what most people in America and Larimer County hold to be true – Christ and Christmas. So Alderden is putting up his own Christmas – “not a holiday” – tree outside the county sheriff’s administration building and is asking people to decorate it Dec. 1.
Alderden wants “members of the public who share our faith or object to government intrusion into our religious freedoms to join us,” he wrote Wednesday in his weekly newsletter to employees and outside subscribers.”
Alderden’s actions pit him against the secular actions of the city government. He believes “the city is trying to brush aside the building blocks of American society – Christianity” and he wants to change the debate:
“The fact that we are even engaged in a discourse of whether Christmas trees and Christian symbols of faith should be allowed on city property is absurd,” Alderden said. “Our country, and sadly our own community, has reached that point where people of good faith and good conscience can no longer stand silently while a belligerent minority usurps our heritage.”
The sheriff’s office is on county-owned land and is exempt from city restrictions. The county administrator has no problem with the sheriff’s position:
“County Manager Frank Lancaster said the county has no policies against erecting Christmas trees on its property. “The sheriff is very passionate about this,” Lancaster said. “And we have no problems with it.”
I file this under backlash.
— DRJ
Backlash!? Right. In a country where public school administrators are still trying to convert non-Christian students, and no, I don’t mean a moment of silence.
This isn’t backlash. They’re doing what they always wanted to.
Andrew J. Lazarus (5aa137) — 11/16/2007 @ 8:27 pmWhat the hell are you talking about Andrew?
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:36 pmCan anyone point to any serious harm done, anywhere, by anyone identifiable, in the so call war on christmas? Other than that Bill O’Reilly is still on the air, and we’re even talking about this.
As an athiest Jew, I spend Christmas with my Catholic partner’s family. I couldn’t care less about what you do with your holidays, so long as you don’t do it with my taxes.All of this profoundly goofy handwringing over an obviously manufactured controversy almost makes me want to start campaigning for a Wiccan celebration, paid for by your local sheriff’s office, and thus your road tax and parking tickets. We’d just be reclaiming what is after all a pagan holiday, and the public nudity might even stimulate tourism. (Note: doesn’t work out in some climates,) Not like I buy any of that, but it is exactly equivalent.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:51 pmIf he wants a Christian symbol, he should use a nativity scene.
The Christmas tree is a Pagan symbol representing an erect penis.
Po-Pos worshiping a Giant Cock–it doesn’t get much more Freudian than that.
So what do the ornaments represent? STD sores?
Merry Cockmas.
Daryl Herbert (4ecd4c) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:33 pmEarly start on the eggnog for Uncle Daryl again this year….
SteveG (4e16fc) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:37 pmWell, Daleyrocks, you could start here.
Andrew J. Lazarus (5aa137) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:55 pmSteve, it’s not a representation of an erect penis. Good grief. Where on earth did you hear that? The Christmas tree is an evergreen tree that is fertile. Pagans like fertility so they can eat food and stuff, not because they are Sex orgy hedonists. The easter bunny is also a symbol of fertility ferived from pagans, but there is no reason whatsoever why Christians wouldn’t want to celebrate with symbols of life and fertility. After all, 2000 years ago, livestock and agriculture were important in a religious way. And a religion of everlasting life ought to co-opt symbols that represent life in winter.
These holidays were fun and important, so the Christians adopted them, much as muslims adopted the hijab and the Mecca stone because that was popular to the Arab peoples.
There is nothing perverted about the Christmas tree, and it’s a very old tradition made a worldwide phenomena by Christianity, not paganism. And if your penis is shaped like a cone, as pine trees are, you should seek medical attention.
Dustin (9e390b) — 11/16/2007 @ 11:09 pmFor the record, Dustin is correct. The christmas tree grew out of Nordic religious tradition, cf. Yggdrasil. There is some symbology from Roman times that relates male fertility with trees and celebrations, but that’s somewhat tenuous. The tradition of decorating trees most directly can be traced to Bremen, Germany, in the 14-1500’s, where folks started putting apples and bread products on them to celebrate. (I’m proud to have studied in Bremen as an exchange student.)
Modern notions of why we cut down perfectly good trees and decorate them with expensive glassware to celebrate the wrong date of birth for a particular religious icon are mostly incorrect, from a historic perspective. But hey, I’ve never been able to make sense of the emic aspects of religion, and in my view, whatever you want to do is fine, so long as I’m not forced to take part. I choose to take part in a particular flavor of it all because of the people involved. All in good fun. When people go making it a political issue, I have to question if they’ve forgotten what celebratory times are about. Using Christmas to exclude and demonize (or, worse, sell books) is about the same thing as using insulin to kill.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/16/2007 @ 11:47 pmUsing Christmas to exclude
you mean like banning Christmas trees from the airport, or any Christmas decorations from city streets/property, or office Christmas parties being renamed “holiday parties” least someone feel slighted, or constant lawsuits or threats of lawsuits over historical crosses – be it Mt. Soledad or crosses on city seals? Isn’t more like using Christmas as an excuse to ban it as being offensive, or possibly offensive, to others?
One small retreat from the pc, I noticed that Target is decorated with “Merry Christmas” as well as “Happy Holiday” signs this year. First time I’ve seen the former in that store in several years.
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:00 amyou mean like
banning Christmas trees fromnot allowing Menorahs at the airport, orany ChristmasSatanic decorations from city streets/property, or officeChristmasGen She parties being renamed “holiday parties” least someone feel slighted, or constant lawsuits or threats of lawsuits over historicalcrosses – be it Mt. Soledad or crossesBhuddist statues on city seals? Isn’t more like using Christmas as an excuse to ban it as being offensive, or possibly offensive, to others?There, I fixed your typos for you. Get back to me when your taxes are paying for any of those.
FWIW, nongovernment institutions should feel free to decorate however they want. I have no issue with Target wishing me a merry Christmas or a happy Day of the Dead. (The latter would be at least novel, so I guess I have to admit to a slight preference.) I’m personally unclear on how to decide if airports haven’t been effectively nationalized at this point. My point is simple: celebrate however you want, and I’ll do the same. Just don’t push it into government. If you disagree on that point, I assume you’ll havetake no issue if Shiva or Mohammedh or Thor replaces the Officially Sanctioned God.
Consider this, though: nobody I’m aware of (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is campaigning on the notion that Target should be legally bound to not invoke the name of Christ at commercially useful times. They respond to market pressures like any other company. If, as an accessory to your new bathroom mats, being wished a merry Christmas is a service you wish to be rendered to you by a bored clerk, you’re free to vote with your wallet, and I hope you do so early and loudly. On the other hand, if you don’t fancy hearing Daoist peotry at the DMV, consider keeping the US the secular state it always has been. (I’m only inflating that a little – last time I went to renew my license, Polish and Spanish were by far the most common languages used. Polish is a really weird language that I can’t make much sense of yet, but the Spanish speakers were just as annoyed as I was at the waits.)
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:47 amThere, I fixed your typos for you. Get back to me when your taxes are paying for any of those.
fishbane, I take it you oppose the establishment of Muslim footbaths in public places?
I find it interesting that you would leave that out of your “typo revisement” of Darleen’s comment.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 3:18 amAJL – Scary sruff. Mostly moments of silence, mentions of relion in graduation speeches and such. Where are the attempts at conversion of non-Christian students you describe?
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/17/2007 @ 5:02 amI sure hope the ACLU dont stick its big fat secular nose in they dont need those socialists wackos and their stupid lawsuits
krazy kagu (3e8790) — 11/17/2007 @ 8:03 amThat’s not some vague reference to religion at graduation. That’s singling out the non-Christian student. I’d say that’s an attempt at proselytizing.
Andrew J. Lazarus (5aa137) — 11/17/2007 @ 8:52 am“make the point that America is a Christian nation and most people like it that way:”
He hasn’t noticed that people don’t know this? People must be pretty safe in his county.
whitd (10527e) — 11/17/2007 @ 9:03 amfishbane:
I admire your insistance that your tax dollars not be used to pay for something you disagree with, but that ship sailed a long time ago. I pay for a Department of Education that isn’t educating anyone, a Costal Commission whose primary mission is interfering with peoples’ property rights, and big housing projects that destroy neighborhoods. I pay for public schools my kids don’t go to, sidewalks I don’t walk on, and supersonic jet fighters they won’t let me fly. For Heaven’s sake, my tax dollars are paying Chuck Schumer’s salary.
And for someone who knows that our current Christmas tradition grows out of a Nordic tradition called “Yggdrasil,” I am surprised by your statement about keeping the U.S. “the secular state it always has been.” We used to have a lot more toleration for religion in public spaces than we do now. In fact, when I was a (little) boy we used to start out the (public) school day with the Lord’s prayer.
Roscoe (d274cf) — 11/17/2007 @ 9:24 amAJL – How rampant is this horrifying practice you describe?
” In a country where public school administrators are still trying to convert non-Christian students, and no, I don’t mean a moment of silence.”
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/17/2007 @ 9:54 amfishbane
Let me say that the “Satan” decorations is just a variation of Godwin’s law
or, if you have it, you’ve jumped the “Someone save us from the offensive glimpse of tinsel least we be forced to witness ritual sacrifice in the cityhall lobby!” shark.
I’m a government employee working on county property. We our desks/offices for most holidays. We are a diverse group and people just plain delight in something a little different than staring at the same industrial grey walls broken with splashes of off-white. If someone wants to take “offense” I’d say they are in need of a heart transplant.
I think fundamentalist secularists’ favorite color is beige.
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:01 amargh
“We decorate our desks”
:::need more coffee::::
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:02 amgraduation of the sole Jewish student in her class was ruined
I worry about someone with such a fragile psyche.
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:07 am“In a country where public school administrators are still trying to convert non-Christian students, and no, I don’t mean a moment of silence.”
Funny, I’ve worked in public schools directly for administrators for over 11 years and never once have I seen any attempts by them to convert non-Christian students.
What I do see is them daily struggling to push the big rock uphill only to be thwarted by some suit at the state level demanding, ‘not only must you educate these students, you will also feed, clothe, and espouse only our mandated doctrines of feel-goodism.’
Dana (75708c) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:10 amSheriff Jim Alderden represents men of old who were unafraid to be true to their values and ethos.
I wonder where men like him have vanished to….. no doubt under some emasculating well manicured thumb.
Dana (75708c) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:14 amJust surfing…
“… Pagans like fertility so they can eat food and stuff, not because they are Sex orgy hedonists. …”
Man…You really know how to bring someone down. What a Bummer.
AJL and proselytizing…And the prayer of a clergyman (1st Amendment, what) is an official act of the STATE?
Your foolishness, which is obviously shaped by the twisted penumbras and emanations from the ACLU, grows by magnitudes. Congress should subject your rantings to an entertainment tax, it would equal-out, and allow, the cancellation of the AMT.
Darleen & coffee…
Another Drew (8018ee) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:52 amMy sympathies. We’ve all been there, done that, etc…(I’m just on my second cup, and refuse to go back looking for typos on this post).
Ah yes converting non Christians by threats of Xmas trees and bingo halls. All those evil Lutherans with their choirs; menacing Baptists and their ladies pot luck meals; sinister Methodists and their car bombs. I wonder what world some of these people live in.
Our founding fathers established a nation that while not perfect is so far above in terms of tolerance compared to any others its amazing we can see the seriously disturbed who can’t bear to hear the word of God at graduation or hear Merry Xmas. I wonder how they survive in such an abusive envirnonment. The really funny thing is that people who adhere to their religions don’t find much to object to, these are using secular jews, or those who have decided they worship at the altar of secular humanism, blessed be its tennets.
I have little doubt these people have problems with the Boy Scouts, single sex bathrooms, and male only organizations.
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 11/17/2007 @ 10:59 amIts a short blurb but at least it’s the guy’s own tree. He isn’t spending any taxpayer money (at least not according to the above).
Decorating a Christmas tree as a protest seems a bit overexcited, especially from Christians who are by no means anywhere close to even sort of being some embattled minority in this country.
I bet the real issue is it annoys the crap out of the good sherriff (and a lot of other people too) that a few individuals can force their preferences on everyone else by pushing some rule that previously nobody even thought about. In fact its worse than that huh? its an interpretation of a rule.
Well, now someone wants to enforce the interpretation of the rule. Such is change.
I think people should put up whatever they want and everyone else should tolerate it even if they don’t agree with it. Liberal of me I know but it seems a lot nicer than lawsuits about Christmas.
EdWood (118003) — 11/17/2007 @ 11:34 am“I worry about someone with such a fragile psyche.”
Name him sheriff.
whitd (10527e) — 11/17/2007 @ 11:43 amAndrew J Lazarus:
That’s not some vague reference to religion at graduation. That’s singling out the non-Christian student. I’d say that’s an attempt at proselytizing.
Andrew, your ignorance here (along with the student) is breathtaking.
You see, Christianity flowed from Judaism in that Jews believe the Messiah hasn’t yet come, while Christians believe he has (some guy named Jesus Christ the son of God. Ever heard of him? He happened to be a devout Jew throughout his life.) So a prayer asking the Father, the God of Christianity, who is the same God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel and King David of Judaism to watch over that student is not an attempt at proselytizing.
Good grief.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:28 pm“So a prayer asking the Father, the God of Christianity, who is the same God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel and King David of Judaism to watch over that student is not an attempt at proselytizing.”
So it was jewish prayer?
whitd (10527e) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:30 pmLet me say that the “Satan” decorations is just a variation of Godwin’s law
Darleen, there’s this thing called humor, and this other thing called exageration. They’re sometimes used together, combined with making an argument, in order to delight and entertain – think of it like the sprinkles on an ice cream cone. Reacting to the sprinkles and ignoring the ice cream, well, that’s the sort of thing that folks who take Bill O’Reilly’s discourse seriously.
Roscoe, since you can’t fly those shiny jets you’re paying for, you want to fund more statist nonsense? If that’s not what you mean, I lost the line of reasoning at some point. And yes, in the Good Ole’ Days, public school prayer and whatnot were more tolerated. Most places were a lot more homogenous then. (I had a teacher, also a preacher, badger me to come to his church the entire year. That was either 6th or 7th grade, I can’t recall now. He’s also notable to me for pronouncing the ‘p’ in ‘pseudopod’ when teaching “science” class and paddling people he suspected were passing wind. Just some of the charms of southern grammar school.) There are reasons that these things evolve. Having a melting pot society doesn’t mean everyone converts to whatever flavor of worship is popular with those who run the local government. If it did, I strongly suspect you’d not much enjoy very many of Brooklyn’s neighborhoods.
Ed Wood – I agree with you. I don’t mind the Haitians down the street proclivity towards rather dramatic invokations of Grand Bois (at least, I think that’s what they’re doing) anymore than I mind the Polish Catholic’s prayer service on the sidewalk outside the local bar. If anything, it provides color and makes the rent I pay slightly more worth it. I would mind if some pissant elected official started making a big deal out of their preferred holiday. Sheriffs are not on the public dime to organize decorations.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:33 pmSo it was jewish prayer?
And you say I’m refusing to get it.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:33 pm“And you say I’m refusing to get it.”
So it was a christian prayer aimed at the jew? nice move.
whitd (10527e) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:35 pmSo it was jewish prayer?
Actually, it was an Islamic prayer. As Paul must know, the Prophet only restored the original Abrahamic faith. Aside from a minor disagreements about which religious proselytizers to put on which pedestals, Islam is just Christianity is just Judaism.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:42 pmSo it was a christian prayer aimed at the jew? nice move.
Like I said, “And you say I’m refusing to get it.”
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:52 pmActually, it was an Islamic prayer. As Paul must know, the Prophet only restored the original Abrahamic faith. Aside from a minor disagreements about which religious proselytizers to put on which pedestals, Islam is just Christianity is just Judaism.
So is that humor, exaggeration, or cluelessness on your part, fishbane?
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 12:53 pmYou tell me, Paul. You pointed out that
[…] a prayer asking the Father, the God of Christianity, who is the same God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel and King David of Judaism to watch over that student is not an attempt at proselytizing.
I just pointed out the Father referenced is the same one that Muhammad was yammering on about. So it follows that could have been an Islamic prayer and have been just as sincere and totally not proselytizing.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:01 pmI just pointed out the Father referenced is the same one that Muhammad was yammering on about. So it follows that could have been an Islamic prayer and have been just as sincere and totally not proselytizing.
Well then, why didn’t you say that in the first place?
Paul (ec9716) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:04 pmwhitd (sic)
Actually, the scarred forever by having one’s virgin ears RAPED RAPED I TELL YOU by a Xtianist blessing student could take some lessons in chutzpah from the sheriff.
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:14 pmfishbane
maybe you should have had out your “humor” tags.
On almost every discussion I’ve had with people about how “separation of church and state” doesn’t involve the Bowlderizing of the symbols, history and culture of American Judeo-Christianity out of the American public square, there’s always the alarmed fundie secularist who tosses in the Satanist/occultist strawman …
Vouchers? …you gotta give ’em to the Satanists!
Christmas deco on the City Hall lawn? what about Satanist deco?
it’s as tired and lame as Bush=Hitler.
Darleen (187edc) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:21 pmWell then, why didn’t you say that in the first place?
I thought it was pretty much implicit. And to your children, I say Alu Akbar!
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:22 pmthere’s always the alarmed fundie secularist who tosses in the Satanist/occultist strawman
Fundie secularist – I like that.
I think you discount the point too easily, though. Granted, I rather strongly doubt that we’ll see inverted crosses in court rooms any time soon, but if the 10 Commandments are OK, than it should be, too.
Although I’d personally prefer the FSM.
fishbane (1f2790) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:28 pm“Actually, the scarred forever by having one’s virgin ears RAPED RAPED I TELL YOU by a Xtianist blessing student could take some lessons in chutzpah from the sheriff.”
And feel like his feelings are hurt too!
But now there was a rape.
whitd (10527e) — 11/17/2007 @ 1:35 pmfishbane – You ought to warn people when you are about to use those devices you called humor and exaggeration so they can be on the lookout for them in your comments. They can be tough to find when someone sucks at humor and exaggerates in the normal course of commenting. A warning when you are making a deliberate attempt would be appreciated.
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/17/2007 @ 4:21 pmDana, may I suggest that the non-existence of illegal Christian proselytizing in your public school (and. for that matter, in my kids’ public schools) is a very weak refutation of a claim that such activity takes place in other public schools.
And yes, having a Christian minister single out the Jewish student for a special “prayer” at graduation qualifies in my book.
Andrew J. Lazarus (734aee) — 11/17/2007 @ 4:55 pmAJL – The following is a pretty standard definition of proselytize:
try to convert somebody: to try to convert somebody to a religious faith or political doctrine
The prayer offered at graduation cited at the link you provided comes no where close to this – it in no way solicits the student. Try again, there are plenty of other problems with the Indian River situation as described, but proselytization through the graduation prayer is not one of them.
How about providing some current examples of the phenomenon you cited in your comment.
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/17/2007 @ 8:51 pmI read it that way.
Andrew J. Lazarus (734aee) — 11/17/2007 @ 9:43 pmAJL – Let the other commenters decide. I think you’ve beclowned yourself once again. Here’s the prayer:
I also pray for one specific student, that You be with her and guide her in the path that You have for her. And we ask all these things in Jesus’ name.
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/17/2007 @ 9:53 pmsounds like a member of one religion (the majority religion in america) singled out the one member of a minority religion at her graduation, a state-sponsored secular event, and sought to isolate her and make her uncomfortable by offering one of these faux, anodyne prayers christians are so good at. when called on it, his defenders resort to either “it isn’t such a big deal” which is a common fallback for bullies and lawbreakers, or “christianity is the same thing as judaism” which is flat-out dishonest.
assistant devil's advocate (519cb7) — 11/18/2007 @ 8:29 amGee,
paul from fl (47918a) — 11/19/2007 @ 2:57 amI made believe that I was the only Jew in a group of people (Not hard for me, I was the only Jew in my Boot Camp Company) And asked myself if that comment was made at my Graduation, how would I feel.
Gratitude. Thanks Reverend for including me in your thoughts. Your whole “jesus’ thing isn’t my cup of tea, but it was a nice try anyway.
That is until the hypersensitive, anti-religous zealots started screaming about Church and State (How come not Synagogue and State?).
Or my fellow, yet thin-skinned, not too secure in their faith Jews, start their typical hand wringing.
Then I feel put upon. Now I feel, Geez, I guess the Reverend was trying to hurt my feelings?
If he was , he’s a schmuck and a bully. But odds are he was trying to be inclusive.
As for the Christmas tree in Colorado…
Enjoy it. Decorate it. Have fun.
And when they elect a Jewish Sheriff (Which will happen Tomorrow I’m sure…lol) He’ll be able to erect a Menorah.
I guess my point is I would hope after almost 5700 years of exsistence, and our fair share of persecution, we’d become expert at what is truly an assault upon our religion. Besides, the real big “Kid’ holiday for jews isn’t Hannukah…it’s Purim, problem is, it doesn’t fall during the American Consumer Holiday Season. Oh well. Merry Christmas and Gut Yontiff!
The fathers of this country wrote a Constitution so that “you” people could whine.
Jay (4efb68) — 11/23/2007 @ 6:51 amAndrew J. Lazarus: And yes, having a Christian minister single out the Jewish student for a special “prayer” at graduation qualifies in my book.
I read it that way.
Is this religious bigotry in action, Andrew?
assistant devil’s advocate: sounds like a member of one religion (the majority religion in america) singled out the one member of a minority religion at her graduation, a state-sponsored secular event, and sought to isolate her and make her uncomfortable by offering one of these faux, anodyne prayers christians are so good at.
There is a career in filmmaking ahead for you, ADA, since you can produce such high levels of projection.
when called on it, his defenders resort to either “it isn’t such a big deal” which is a common fallback for bullies and lawbreakers, or “christianity is the same thing as judaism” which is flat-out dishonest.
Wow. According to ADA, Christians are bullies, lawbreakers and liars.
ADA, I suggest you stay out of religious discussions until you do some actual research and study. You’ve demonstated sheer ignorance on Christianity in the past, and nothing you have written here shows any improvement.
I wrote the truth about the common past of Christianity and Judaism in #27, and I defy you to prove me wrong.
Put up or shut up.
Paul (36cd46) — 11/23/2007 @ 7:29 am