“Why Don’t You Shut Up!”
[Guest post by DRJ]
This is my idea of good diplomacy when it comes to dictators like Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez:
“‘Why don’t you shut up!’
The words of King Juan Carlos 1 of Spain to the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chávez, in the closing session of the Latin American summit today.
The Spanish monarch lost his cool when Chávez called the ex Spanish Prime Minister, José María Aznar, a fascist on several occasions. King Juan Carlos then got up and walked out of the session in a gesture without precedent, …”
H/T Instapundit – the deserving winner of Weblog 2007’s Best Individual Blogger.
I’m with you. I’m at the point that I think we need to see a few figurative re-enactments of the caning of Charles Sumner. You know, we had a a guy at the United Nations who was that kind of guy, but the Dems forced him out. His name was John Bolton
driver (faae10) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:13 pm“dictators like Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez:”
He was elected. The Bush administration backed an attempted coup against him. And by the way, it’s well known in Spain at least Juan Carlos tried to turn his monarchy into the “real” thing early on and was forced to back down.
Yes, these days Chavez is going to far now, but he’s going to win his referendum, and he’d also win reelection.
So stop lying.
blah (fb88b3) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:22 pmAs I was saying…where is that cane?
driver (faae10) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:43 pmWhether a dictator was “elected” has nothing to do with whether or not he is a dictator. Chavez has behaved in a dictatorial fashion since he took office.
There is no proof, besides Hugo Chavez’s assertions, that the US was involved in any way in the 2002 coup attempt against him. It’s only typical that blah would portray a man who himself attempted a coup in 1991 as yet another victim of the CIA.
Juan Carlos never tried to create a monarchist state after Franco died; the monarchists largely opposed him at the time because they thought that his father, Don Juan, was the real legitimate claimant to the throne and that Juan Carlos was overstepping himself in setting up a democratic government with himself sitting on the throne. That Juan Carlos ruled and reigned from Franco’s death to 1978 is not even half the story; during that time, he set up a new Constitution that stripped him of his ruling powers and put it before the legislature and the people. Both passed it.
The story of Spain’s transition from military dictatorship to democracy is one that reflects well on Juan Carlos and the Spanish people. He built the political infrastructure necessary for democracy to survive against the threat of Francoist hardliners still occupying important posts in the Spanish Army and Leftist agitators as well, and then he gave up power to the people.
There is nothing, anywhere, to indicate that Juan Carlos tried to step into Franco’s place and rule henceforth, Twit.
But to get off the historical corrections, Chavez has made the same silly mistake that the Democrats have: he mistook being opposed or uneasy with Bush as being, inherently, support for him. Note how Venezuela’s diplomatic star has been falling in South America for the last few years as Chavez has failed to get Venezuela a seat on the UN Security Council when he had the chance, and the atmosphere at international conferences like this Ibero-American Summit have become noticeably less friendly towards him. People are sick of his insulting rhetoric. The Soviet Union is dead; Soviet-style talking points don’t work anymore. Venezuela is becoming the organized crime capital of South America; Chavez’s socialist policies and his “Bolivarian” rhetoric make international corporations nervous and less likely to invest; George Bush will not be President of the United States in 14 months but the “giant of the north” will remain, inevitably dominating the Western Hemisphere.
There is, as yet, no economic alternative for South Americans to turn to if they wish to put their money where Chavez’s mouth is when it comes to relations with the USA. So his “Bolivarian” campaign stutters, loses steam, and is now flailing about madly.
chaos (9c54c6) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:47 pmWhat is especially stupid of Chavez is that Juan Carlos is the man who transitioned Spain from a real fascist dictatorship (anyone remember Franco) and set up a democracy.
Blah, your dead wrong on what Juan Carlos did, and I’ll back it up with my PhD in Spanish, if you read Spanish I can suggest some readings. He is the one who brought democracy to Spain, not vice versa. The only ones who might buy Juan Carlos as a would be tyrant are radical anarchists, hard core communists and ETA
Dr T (b1f404) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:52 pmwell said chaos
Dr T (b1f404) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:53 pmVery well said, chaos, and Dr T, too.
DRJ (5c60fb) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:57 pmIronic, that.
Poor blah. The truth hates him.
Pablo (99243e) — 11/10/2007 @ 4:57 pmYes, these days Chavez is going too far now, but he’s going to win his referendum, and he’d also win reelection.
So stop lying.
You know, I wonder if blah would have used a similar defense for Hitler during the mid-1930s.
Hey, let’s try it:
Yes, these days
ChavezHitler is going too far now, but he’s going to win his referendum, and he’d also win reelection.So stop lying.
Yup, I think he would.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:01 pmJuan Carlos is no pampered tourist attraction like the British royalty. His grandfather was overthrown by Franco, his father was exiled, and his own future was uncertain for much of his life. (He also has a black belt in karate and rides 200 mph motorcycles.)
nk (597e8b) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:19 pmWell, what did I do?
Venezuela:
blah (fb88b3) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:44 pmOne
Two
Three
blah (fb88b3) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:44 pmFour
You want more?
You presumed that the US is the cause of everything that happens on Earth, and that nothing ahppens except by the hand of the evil Americans.
Poor, poor blah. But on the bright side, at least you haven’t been nationalized and had your property stolen.
Pablo (99243e) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:55 pmOh, and then you turned to The Grauniad to find support for your theory. What, is Pravda down?
Pablo (99243e) — 11/10/2007 @ 5:56 pm“…The only ones who might buy Juan Carlos as a would be tyrant are radical anarchists, hard core communists and ETA.”
I’m quite sure blah fits in there nicely.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 11/10/2007 @ 6:00 pmThere is really no need to defend Chavez. Lots of dictators are smart enough to get “elected”.
Noriega had his “dignity battalions” and Chavez brought his out last week.
But just for the sake of argument I’ll consider that the CIA maybe tried to keep Chavez from power.
OK
Well Chavez is an ass, so kudos to the CIA for brilliant and correct analysis if your allegations are true
Of course “CIA interference” is no excuse for installing oneself as de facto dictator and hiring thugs with metal bars and wristrockets to attack the “tools of the CIA” opposition party is sorta boringly predictable.
I’m sorry… I meant to write “stooges of the CIA” but my psuedo marxist dictatorship dictionary was on the blink.
Kudos to all the stooges.
Oh yeah
I know the left is huge on speaking truth to power but only a bully and a blowhard interrupts like Chavez does.
I’ve seen Bush take way worse of a verbal beatdown with grace and dignity… then refused to allow others to question the patriotism of the shrill one.
I’ve seen Condeleeza Rice politely wait her turn in the face of the most vile accusations… but go ahead and put Chavez on a pedestal… heck, I hope he endorses the Democratic frontrunner.
Good luck with that.
Last blah questions:
SteveG (4e16fc) — 11/10/2007 @ 6:13 pmWould you like to live in Venezuela under Chavez’ rule?
If you found yourself in disagreement with Chavez while living in Venezuela, would you have the courage to organize and lead a Code Pink style protest of him?
And here’s a link on the rise of the rebirth of the left in latin America.
blah (fb88b3) — 11/10/2007 @ 6:51 pmI have problems with Chavez. But I have problems with what came before him too.
I have problems with Chavez. But I have problems with what came before him too.
But he’s not a dictator. That’s the important thing to remember.
Gerald A (6b39c1) — 11/10/2007 @ 7:06 pmOh, now blah turns to the BDS-addled BBC to link to.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/10/2007 @ 7:08 pmThanks, blah. My evening wouldn’t have been complete without an invocation of Godwin’s Law.
Pablo (99243e) — 11/10/2007 @ 7:20 pm“Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren’t able to practice their love with women all across this country.”
“They misunderestimated me.”
“Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?”
“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
You’re right. Bush is funnier. Killed more people too.
blah (fb88b3) — 11/10/2007 @ 7:44 pmThe fact is that blah is just plain nasty. And the only way to respond to him is with nastiness or not at all. I’ll try not at all as best as I can.
nk (597e8b) — 11/10/2007 @ 7:52 pmNever mind blah, nk. He’s just mad because we’ve proved him dead wrong at nearly every turn and mocked him. He’s got nothing else, so his response is to rhetorically throw food. You know…that last defiant jab.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/10/2007 @ 8:05 pmIts been a good blah-la-palooza! Thanks for playing. Its great to see such a know-nothing smacked around.
red (9e9332) — 11/10/2007 @ 9:23 pmblah – you continue to spread shock and awe by the sheer stupidity and ignorance of your comments.
What are you, a fourteen year old who thinks he’s being clever?
Foxfier (ce585a) — 11/10/2007 @ 10:40 pmGuys like blah do a public service. Imagine him spouting his incoherent nonsense in an office space. Most people would be driven to reject his politics out of hand and by extension when the same politics are put out by his more outwardly reasonable but just as looney fellow travelers. The remainder would be driven to consider matters in a well reasoned way so they wouldn’t be considered a blah and arrive at rational positions. The bare handful that would lend him any credence are going to be captured by some inane worldview anyway.
Not meaning to distract the thread but as a relevant analogy to Chavez and the rest of Latin America, watching Kos and his demented leprechauns dance around Ned Lamont’s living room perhaps helped Lamont get the dem nomination when 5% of the state voted in the primary (or whatever the number was). It turned the solid majority of Connecticut voters in the general election, republican and democrat, against any thought of supporting someone attached to a crew like that. Had there been no republican candidate running at all, Lamont would have taken…what, maybe 10% in the general election.
So give us as many more blahs and Chavezes publicly vocalizing their worldview as possible.
Just Passing Through (d7a06d) — 11/11/2007 @ 5:30 amAgree with #26. We should thank blah for putting his/her loony ideas on public display.
Old Coot (06fab9) — 11/11/2007 @ 7:22 amI must have missed the 70 million or so people Bush has killed when I wasn’t looking.
Go fuck yourself Twit.
chaos (9c54c6) — 11/11/2007 @ 8:54 amGo fuck yourself Twit.
As I become less and less patient with commenters I find myself issuing more and more warnings. This sort of comment is unacceptable, and I am warning the offending commenter that a repeat will earn a minimum one-week timeout.
Patterico (bad89b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:03 amI can understand your dismay at people telling posters to go fuck themselves. But, comments like blah’s calling Bush worse than Hitler are to me more offensive on so many different levels than anyone saying FU.
dave (c44c9b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:09 amWell, the simple fact remains that I allow people to make stupid and even offensive arguments, but I won’t tolerate that kind of language used in that kind of manner. I haven’t really noticed chaos being a repeat offender. But the comment is so offensive — and comes in the context of my actively trying to prevent exactly that sort of tone — that I feel the need to issue a warning.
Patterico (bad89b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:19 amYour blog. But there is stupid and offensive and then there is ridiculing the suffering and murder of millions of innocent men, women, and children by Hitler as blah does.
dave (c44c9b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:25 amYeah, but blah just discredits himself and his political movement by saying that.
Patterico (bad89b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:32 amSo why prohibit that?
Patterico (bad89b) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:33 amBecause his abusiveness turns people off to the blog. Look at every thread he’s commented in in the last week, and at least once in each he either drive-by links, or swears at them.
And when Blah deliberately provokes people into swearing at him (sorry, calling bush worse than Hitler might piss certain groups of people off), you warn the wrong person.
I know it’s your blog and all, but Blah isn’t “dissent”, he’s trash.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 11/11/2007 @ 9:38 amThis place is amazing:
Dave- “comments like blah’s calling Bush worse than Hitler”
Pat-“Well, the simple fact remains that I allow people to make stupid and even offensive arguments,”
Well, the simple fact remains that I didn’t compare Bush to Hitler, I compared him to Chavez and the comparison was simple and absolutely valid. Bush has killed more people. Should I have more fun and say that Chavez got the popular vote and that Bush didn’t?
Before the screaming that’s a reference to the Electoral College; no more no less.
And here’s a link to a discussion of Franco and Juan Carlos.
blah (fb88b3) — 11/11/2007 @ 10:56 amI was in Spain for half a year in the late 90’s and heard a lot of stories. Maybe that’s all they were.
http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_kingjuancarlos71903.html
This place is amazing:
blah (fb88b3) — 11/11/2007 @ 10:57 amDave- “comments like blah’s calling Bush worse than Hitler”
Pat-“Well, the simple fact remains that I allow people to make stupid and even offensive arguments,”
Well, the simple fact remains that I didn’t compare Bush to Hitler, I compared him to Chavez and the comparison was simple and absolutely valid. Bush has killed more people. Should I have more fun and say that Chavez got the popular vote and that Bush didn’t?
Before the screaming that’s a reference to the Electoral College; no more no less.
And here’s a link to a discussion of Franco and Juan Carlos.
I was in Spain for half a year in the late 90’s and heard a lot of stories. Maybe that’s all they were.
http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_kingjuancarlos71903.html
This place is amazing:
blah (fb88b3) — 11/11/2007 @ 10:58 amDave- “comments like blah’s calling Bush worse than Hitler”
Pat-“Well, the simple fact remains that I allow people to make stupid and even offensive arguments,”
Well, the simple fact remains that I didn’t compare Bush to Hitler, I compared him to Chavez and the comparison was simple and absolutely valid. Bush has killed more people. Should I have more fun and say that Chavez got the popular vote and that Bush didn’t?
Before the screaming that’s a reference to the Electoral College; no more no less.
And here’s a link to a discussion of Franco and Juan Carlos.
blah (fb88b3) — 11/11/2007 @ 10:59 amI was in Spain for half a year in the late 90’s and heard a lot of stories. Maybe that’s all they were.
http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_kingjuancarlos71903.html
The simple fact remains that you make stupid and even offensive arguments, pretty much exclusively. But you’re sort of like having a pet retarded Tasmainain devil.
Pablo (99243e) — 11/11/2007 @ 11:15 amYou allow people to make stupid and even offensive arguments made for the sole purpose of virtually assaulting people who hold different opinions and come here to make reasonable arguments.
You expect forbearance from the reasonable commenters and tell them the cost of dropping by for conversation is having to ignore the street person loudly hallucinating while shitting on the table.
And you believe providing a forum for it is necessary reinforcement of that opinion?
However, as dave noted, it’s your blog.
Just Passing Through (d7a06d) — 11/11/2007 @ 11:35 amJPT,
What a blogger is willing to tolerate on the margins depends on what he is shooting for. I’m shooting for a place that allows opinions from the other side. I don’t delete them just because they’re wrong — or even badly wrong, stupidly wrong . . . or even offensively wrong.
This obviously makes things uncomfortable for some people, who would rather have me err on the side of banning such opinions for the comfort of the regulars.
But I’m trying hard to avoid an echo chamber, mainly because most blog comment sections seem to degenerate into that.
Patterico (78b5e9) — 11/11/2007 @ 11:43 amBlah forgets that Saddam was elected as well, so I guess he wasn’t a dictator either.
nk, you might have been wrong about the crack about Saudi Arabia in the other thread. blah’s vociferous defense of Chavez and his link to the Iranian women’s group dowmplaying stoning suggest a closer kinship to Iran. You know what butt buddies Chavez and Imadamnutjob are lately. Odd, given that at one point blah claimed to be Jewish.
daleyrocks (906622) — 11/11/2007 @ 11:58 amThere is no danger of an echo chamber. You have plenty of reasonable people who stop by and make reasonable arguments from the other side. Being reasonable people they haven’t been intimidated into not stopping in because you enforce decorum from all sides. Nor are they going to feel intimidated if you give fair warning that flinging shit at people is not allowed.
blah is not here to present opinions from the other side. He’s here to deride and abuse people who don’t share his. He’s here to fling shit.
Just Passing Through (d7a06d) — 11/11/2007 @ 11:58 amThis is incorrect; Juan Carlos’s grandfather fled the country in 1931 after massive incompetence on the part of his (dictatorial) government lost public support. This opposition was largely on the left.
Blah is, I think, also correct in saying the Chavez is not (yet) a dictator. He appears to have genuine support from a significant majority of the population. Perhaps the Venezuelan upper class should think about the extent to which their governments (kleptocratic) created the environment in which Chavez could flourish.
OTOH, I don’t know where blah gets the idea that Juan Carlos was at one time considering continuation of Spain as an undemocratic state. I don’t know what Juan Carlos never received the Nobel Peace Prize.
Andrew J. Lazarus (b9afa2) — 11/11/2007 @ 12:00 pmPatterico #29,
It’s ironic to see blah as the victim of hostile language given this recent comment. I didn’t think it was worth responding to – after all, I guess it’s better than being called a celibate hack – but it shows blah has an affection for gutter words, too.
DRJ (5c60fb) — 11/11/2007 @ 12:41 pmValid?
When was the last time Bush had a News station critical of him shut down?
When was the last time people protesting Bush were shot and killed in the street?
When was the last time Bush was able to chuck every single part of the government he didn’t like in order to be allowed to rule by fiat?
How can you even start to compare Chavez and Bush? If Bush were just as bad as Chavez, you’d either be rotting in a political prison, or dead.
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 11/11/2007 @ 12:41 pmThe King Juan Carlos didn’t go diplomatic when saying it, but to the president Chavez has given him a punishment.
in Venezuela, thanks to the president Chavez, the corruption, the delinquency, much murders for the bandits.
In Venezuela we no longer have milk, neither sugar, neither beans, day by day Venezuela resembles Cuba
Here in Venezuela enters more money that never, thanks to the petroleum, but Chavez it distributes it among their countries “friends”, Chavez doesn’t care Venezuela
The Spanish king gave his lesson to the president Chavez
To forgive for my poor English, I wait understand me, thank you
Greetings from Venezuela.
Xabinator Venezuela - Euskadi (8ebca5) — 11/11/2007 @ 1:22 pmSo someone has finaly told that swaggering blabbering jackass to shut his piehole now someone should tell that to AL GORE so he wont produce anymore HOT AIR
krazy kagu (e778bf) — 11/11/2007 @ 1:46 pmDRJ #43:
“Affection for gutter words” is an understatement.
Which deepens the irony.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:05 pmBlah is, I think, also correct in saying the Chavez is not (yet) a dictator. He appears to have genuine support from a significant majority of the population.
Fear is a great motivator.
Paul (ec9716) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:06 pmSpaniards know a thing or two about real fascists.
Amphipolis (e6b868) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:16 pmI agree wholeheartedly with Patterico about my use of “faggot” in the other thread. It does not belong in polite conversation. And I think I can find polite and humorous ways to call somebody a “loony jackass” without actually saying “loony jackass”.
nk (09a321) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:30 pmIt’s ironic that a discussion of appropriate language would occur in a post entitled “Why Don’t You Shut Up!”
DRJ (5c60fb) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:32 pmBy the way, I found comment 48 in the comment filter. I think it’s worth reading if you missed it.
DRJ (5c60fb) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:33 pmSo will blah call comment #48 a fake?
Paul (ec9716) — 11/11/2007 @ 2:41 pm“his link to the Iranian women’s group dowmplaying stoning suggest a closer kinship to Iran. ”
blah (fb88b3) — 11/11/2007 @ 4:10 pmMy link to an Iranian women’s rights group highlighted the fight against stoning by people in their own country, not by you.
What can I say about #48? I’m not a full on defender of Chavez. But I’m not going to get into a detailed discussion of it. It’s not worth it.
http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_kingjuancarlos71903.html
That’s a link on Spain. I heard a lot of stories when I was there in the mid 90’s. maybe they were only stories.
“Blah is, I think, also correct in saying the Chavez is not (yet) a dictator. He appears to have genuine support from a significant majority of the population.”
“Fear is a great motivator.”
Now that’s a lie, or gross ignorance. He’s very popular with the poorest people in the country, and there are a lot of them. But a society isn’t made up only of one group. It’s not a stable situation.
“When was the last time Bush had a News station critical of him shut down?”
The station wasn’t critical, the management played a part in the attempted coup. But shutting it down has made things worse.
And Scott Jacobs, you don’t pay attention.
But most of you don’t. You yell. So I’ll stop yelling. And you’ve go on twisting or changing what I write, and ignoring what you want to, and lying. And you’ll go on calling me a traitor etc.
Blah #39
The link you posted repeats unsubstantiated reports by a professor who was responsible for revealing the Bay of Pigs invasion to Cuba. While I am not personally familiar with Hilton, he very much appears to be a far leftist source and by his own statement, all he has is rumor.
#48
Hermano, conozco a tantas personas de calidad de Venezuela. Me da pena ver lo que pasa con tu pais. Te deseo libertad y un futuro mejor.
Dr T (b1f404) — 11/11/2007 @ 6:26 pmHow funny, every time you talk to Chavez followers, they always repeat the same things. They repeat words like it is a script that they have previously studied. For example: “HE IS NOT A DICTATOR, HE WAS ELECTED…..” Sure he was, but after that, he has been electing himself over an over, what we call in Venezuela “AN ELECTORAL FRAUD.” Chavez doesn’t care about the people, at lease the Venezuelan people. How is it possible that, in a reach country like Venezuela you can’t not fine milk, eggs, beef, etc. He blames Americans for it (that’s what the left always does, blame the empire for their own stupidity) when he is the guilty one. He took farms away from people who was being productive and gave the land to some lazy asses, now; guess what, the farms are not producing so we don’t have food in the supermarkets. But let me show you what he is doing with our money http://www.lasegunda.com/detalle_impreso/index.asp?idnoticia=0209112007301S0580089
Venezuelan100% (586533) — 11/13/2007 @ 10:03 amThe previous article is in Spanish. It basically says that Chavez has spent 38 THUOSAND MILLION OF DOLLARS ON GIFTS TO 30 COUNTRIES. The article names the nations who have benefited the most with this generosity (Cuba, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Argentina, Ecuador and Brazil) and says that with 5% of that money the president could have paid minimum salary for 973,350 unemployed in the country. Now, don’t you think, event for a moment that money is meant to support humanitarian causes. Those 38 THUOSAND MILLION have been used to support political campaigns and communists movement (revolutions) in those countries because all he cares about is his stupid selfish communist’s ideas. This comment is getting quite long but, since blah likes to put links on his comments, I’ll give you one more, this one is in English. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-naim10nov10,0,1470504.story?coll=la-opinion-center
Basically this one describes the paradise Chavez has built and keeps building for the Venezuelan people and the whole world. Please read it and remember, don’t buy oil from CITGO because you will be supporting terrorism………… I left my country long time ago, way before Chavez, and not a day goes by that I don’t think about my country, my family, my people, how they are suffering and when this nightmare is going to be over. Pretty soon this will end and Chavez and his bastards will pay for everything they had done to my beautiful country.
Chaves is in fact a dictator, as much as he can be. He became known after a fallen coup. And he is trying to change the Constitution to became, legally, the dictator he wants to be.
Jose (52e9ec) — 11/18/2007 @ 1:18 pmCurioso: los mismos argumentos a uno y otro lado en las discusiones de los foros en español…
Jose (52e9ec) — 12/7/2007 @ 12:26 pmTodos somos iguales… 🙂
Es verdad!
DRJ (a6fcd2) — 12/7/2007 @ 12:40 pm