The Real Heroes in Jena (UPDATED)
Via Instapundit comes an article with the best observation yet on the Jena situation. Although many seem intent on making martyrs out of violent thugs, the author suggests that there are better heirs to the legacy of Selma:
[A]ll along, Jena has had a better symbol for civil rights on offer. The anonymous black students who defied the informal segregation at the high school and sat under the perversely misnamed “white tree” are the movement’s true legatees. They have received so little attention that I don’t even know their names or how many such brave and defiant young people there were.
Why don’t we let the system deal with the violent criminals, and do some digging to learn who these real heroes are?
UPDATE: Or, conversely, to learn that the whole story is made up? Several commenters are saying that there was, in fact, no “white tree.” One points to this AP article in which some locals deny that the tree was a “white tree”:
There is, however, a more nuanced rendition of events — one that can be found in court testimony, in interviews with teachers, officials and students at Jena High, and in public statements from a U.S. attorney who reviewed the case for possible federal intervention.
Consider:
_The so-called “white tree” at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.
Hmmm. Well, if I were a school administrator, I might say that even if it weren’t true.
The article also confirms something else I’d heard:
There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.
Look: what are you going to go with? The facts? Or the narrative?
Ok, then.
The latest that I’ve heard/read is that there was no white tree.
Kids of all races sat under the trees.
SMG
SteveMG (30d2a3) — 9/25/2007 @ 5:28 pmI read the same. The school was 80% white. Seems odd they needed a designated gathering spot.
steve (309981) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:32 pmSMG beat me to this….the tree was always segregated….as well as the reports of “three” nooses, which implies, “KKK,” which is also wrong, since there were only two nooses. Another point was that students were playing with the nooses, even to the point of putting them around their necks.
It is truly a shame that so much of this has been blown out of proportion….any assault is bad, any racial act is bad…but, all of them could have simply been “not done” by those who chose to be stupid…
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:35 pmYou’re creeping me out. They are 17 years old. They got into a fight. They are not serial killers. They’ve already been in jail for how long? I think you got your pound of flesh. Jeesh.
dave (381bcc) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:44 pmThe tree wasn’t “segregated” if students of all races sat under it. Sorry to be pedantic.
steve (309981) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:45 pmSome links to the Kumbaya Tree story, SteveMG and reff would be nice.
alphie (99bc18) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:50 pmdave, that’s a fair point to some extent.
It’s not these criminals we’re worried about and protesting… it’s the Al Sharpton style race demagogues. It’s the pundit fabulists trying to divide us that we’re ticked about.
That said, these kids did more than fight, they stomps on an unconscious person. What crime that was is up to a jury, but it’s clearly not a petty crime, and 17 years old is old enough to be treated like an adult in this matter.
Dustin (9e390b) — 9/25/2007 @ 6:55 pmI missed the bit about the tree not being the white tree . . . but can anyone provide a link??
Patterico (2a8eaa) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:03 pmLocals Dispute Growing Story of Jena 6 (AP):
Shad (ed8abc) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:10 pmThis link is extensive, and I hope it works…it is a very comprehensive article, with additional articles, and a very good time-line.
http://www.thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS/70915030
I hope I did this right….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:13 pmPatrick: You can’t stand back and let this work out as it runs its’ course; that is just un-American.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:16 pmWhy, it just can’t be done.
We HAVE to make snap judgements based on faulty information so that we can be as one with the “drive-by” media.
That IS the ‘merican way!
BTW. is the lead reporting on this being done by the same stellar journalists that told us about the bodies stacked like cord-wood at the SuperDome during Katrina?
I’ve commented before that all of this is simply a group of people who have decided that “no justice, no peace” means that they want the justice they want….and if they don’t get it, they do something else…
The Jena Six could simply have chosen not to assault another student. And, none of their existing problems would even have begun. BUT, they decided do act as they did, and now a bunch of people want to say that they have been treated badly, abused by the system, over-charged for a crime THEY COMMITTED.
“No justice, no peace”….for whom? And, only when you think it is the justice you want?
alphie…hope you read everything….might give you more ammunition to bother others….might just shut you up….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:19 pmAccording to the
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/03/AR2007080302098.html
“The chain of events began at the start of school last September. At an assembly that kicked off classes, a black freshman asked the white principal if black students could sit under “the white tree” — a shade tree where only white students regularly sat. The answer was, “You can sit anywhere you want.”
But when black students showed up in the broiling hot yard, they found three nooses hanging from the tree’s branches. After a number of scuffles, the district attorney came to the school and gathered students for a tough talk.
“I can make your life go away with the stroke of a pen,” they recalled him saying. Black students said he looked directly at them. Walters denied it.”
This was written in early August and mentioned some other cases that the black community felt had been injustices. Over the course of the next month many black radio stations begin to spread word of what had happened in Jena. Guess the Revs caught up sometime in that time frame and organized a march.
voiceofreason (c48626) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:29 pmvor….you read the washington post…
That could be a part of the problem….
For example: Reed Walters said exactly what he was quoted as saying. Of course he would deny saying it directly to the “black students.” He said it to EVERY STUDENT, since he gathered all the students in the area at the time. But, look at how the AP reporter says it; he/she only refers to the black students, making the entire thing look as if Walters was only speaking to “black students” at the time, which was NOT TRUE. And, of course, this follows the LIE in the article you quote about “three” nooses.
Oh, and just for fun….the start of public school in Louisiana is always around the 20th of August, not September….has been now for about 25 years….this year, the earliest was August 13th, the latest August 20th….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:37 pmFrom this AP article:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOl6L858y0iDf4k_28ojhYLcuLGg
Consider:
_The so-called “white tree” at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.
_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students “were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them,” according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.
_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.
_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.
_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.
From the following (has tons of links):
http://www.thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS/70915030
According to Louisiana’s Children Code, if someone is 15 or over — Bell was 16 at the time of the incident and Beard was 14 — and they are charged with one of a list of specific charges — including attempted murder — they must be tried in the adult justice system. If a defendant is under the age of 15, he can’t be charged as an adult. This decision isn’t one resting in the hands of the judge or district attorney, but is clearly spelled out in law.
The point of contention though in this case was when the charges were reduced from a crime that a child can be charged as an adult -– like attempted murder — to a crime that a child can’t be charged as an adult –- aggravated battery.
Bell’s lawyers argued that the adult court no longer had jurisdiction, while Walters contended that according to law he did.
On Sept. 4, 28th Judicial District Court Judge J.P. Mauffray Jr. agreed with Bell’s attorneys when they said Mauffray never had jurisdiction over the conspiracy charge and threw out that conviction. But he contended that he retained jurisdiction of the battery charge. The appeals court didn’t agree.
Bell has been adjudicated of four previous crimes of violence -– two for battery and two for criminal damage to property. He was placed on probation until his 18th birthday -– Jan. 18, 2008. Juvenile records are normally sealed, but Bell’s juvenile record was discussed during a hearing to set bond after his June adult felony conviction. If any of the other students have previous convictions, it hasn’t yet been made public.
From poster “Top Gun” (selections only)
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeGallagher/2007/09/20/jena_2007
The students stayed in the gym area during their lunch break. When the bell rang for them to head back to class, one of the “Jena six,” cornered a freshmen white boy in the lobby of the gym. He was trying to get the boy to fight him. The freshmen boy was clad in blue jeans and red wing boots, hence the typical “red neck.” Another black boy, the very SAME one that asked about sitting under the tree, pulled one of the “Jena six” away from the boy and told him that there would be none of that fighting there. However, that wasn’t enough for same boy. As the students were returning to class, same “Jena Six” boy, pulled the hood of his sweatshirt up over his head and pushed the victim down into a concrete wall. When the boy hit the concrete, he was knocked unconscious. It was at this time, that five other boys, joined in and continued to stomp and kick the boy as he lay unconscious on the ground. Guess what…the SAME boy that asked can we sit under the tree, was doing everything that he could to pull them off of the victim. The color of his skin is also black! A friend of the victims managed to lay over the victim until teachers could get there to break the fight up.
Think about the “black” girl that was consoled by her “white” friends the day after the fight. She was having to be consoled because some of the blacks, the color of her own skin, were threatening her, stating that she was the one that turned them in. Ask the media to find that girl and her Mom. There just may be a different twist on everything. The moral of this whole story is, do not believe everything that you here in the media.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:44 pmreff – vor likes to drop by to call everyone that does not agree with he/she/it a racist. It must make him/her/it feel better about him/her/it self.
JD (4c1b7c) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:45 pmThe article cited by voiceofreason in #13 also makes the claim that Bell had no prior criminal record.
We now know that this is incorrect, that he had been previously found guilty of multiple violent charges in juvenile court, and was still on probation from those violations at the time he and his cohort beat Justin Barker.
Shad (ed8abc) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:46 pm(Sorry about the redundancy. Posts were made while I was composing mine.)
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/25/2007 @ 7:46 pm– The story written on Aug 3 related the events beginning the previous september, not the beginning of this school year.
voiceofreason (791228) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:17 pm– Walters denies directing the remark at the black students but doesn’t dispute the student referring to the white tree
– It is just possible that the error about criminal record was due to it being a juvenile record.
– Two nooses or three nooses still means there were nooses.
One last try for vor, though I know the likely outcome. Does seeing a noose, hanging in a tree, give 6 black students to beat the holy shite out of 1 white student, 3 months after the fact? 1 week after the fact? 1 day after the fact?
JD (4c1b7c) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:31 pmvor…go back and read the my post again…all school years start in August, and have for about 25 years….. So when the writer you have quoted so extensively starts out with the incorrect information, I’m just amazed that you are still trying to defend it….
No one said the black student didn’t ask about the white tree. That has been well established. What your article completely takes out of context is the part where the black students imply that Walters was only talking to them, which was a direct lie. Walters denies saying what he said “ONLY TO BLACK STUDENTS.” He said it, to every student in the group, which included white students.
Errors are possible….but not if you read before you write….
No one said there were NO NOOSES (I left out the “YOU IDIOT” at the end of that sentence, since I didn’t want to be redundant). But, there is a direct difference between two nooses and three nooses, as anyone who grew up in the south can attest. Three noooses represents three letters….KKK…two nooses was a prank, and yes, a really bad one….guess that’s why the students who found the nooses in the tree were having fun putting them around their necks and acting “hung”…
Oh, yes, and answer JD’s question, just for the fun of it….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:39 pmJD you are arguing with yourself. I never said one justified the other. If it makes you feel all macho and everything to call me names and project things which I didn’t say, have at it.
But you are terribly naive if you don’t see the many events that led to the march – chiefly a perception in the black community across the country that justice is not equitable. The beef was with the charge of murder, not a call to exonerate because of the noose incident. Free the Jena six was a dumb slogan.
I sense your real problem is that you have some serious issues with objectively looking at the state of race in our country, particularly if you believe that injustices are not occurring in sentencing and charges.
voiceofreason (791228) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:43 pmReff,
The second paragraph reads
“But after the events of the past 12 months, that attempt by white officials about two weeks ago to heal the town’s deep racial divide before the start of a new school year might be too little, too late.”
Perhaps you should read more thoroughly.
Walters denies it, the students say it is so. Without video footage it is only heresay from either side.
I don’t care if it was one hundred or one noose, regardless of whatever Klan symbolism, it was a stupid insensitive thing to do.
voiceofreason (791228) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:48 pmSo, I ask again. Does a noose in a tree in September justify a 6 on 1 beating in December? If they were so aggrieved by the nooses, why not beat the holy hell out of this student that day, the next day, the next week, the next month, the month after that?
Nobody was charged with murder. Attempted murder, yes. I felt that was a stretch, but that is the prosecutors job. Apparently he thought that 6 people stomping on an unconscious person was pretty bad, especially when Bell was already on probaation and had an active history of violent acts.
With you, it always comes back to calling someone else a racist. That must make you feel really big. Morally superior. A better person. Well I call bullshit.
Perceptions do not make realities. If you want to avoid being overcharged, I suggest that you do not go around stomping innocent people until they are unconscious, and then kicking them some more for good measure.
NOBODY denies that there are disparities. The cause of the disparities and the cures for the disparities are what people disagree over.
I like Whitlock’s article. Where were Jesse, Al, the father, VOR, and all of the protestors, the day before Bell attacked this innocent victim?
JD (4c1b7c) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:51 pmI don’t care if it was one hundred or one noose, regardless of whatever Klan symbolism, it was a stupid insensitive thing to do.
Which justifies busting open the head of a kid who had nothing to do with it three monts later? What a stupid alligator egg sucker!
nk (7d4710) — 9/25/2007 @ 8:55 pmvor…your post…your quote..
“The chain of events began at the start of school last September. At an assembly that kicked off classes, a black freshman asked the white principal if black students could sit under “the white tree” — a shade tree where only white students regularly sat. The answer was, “You can sit anywhere you want.”
My reply: school starts in August, not September, and has for about 25 years. The writer starts out with incorrect information, and even implies that the assembly was to start out the year must be in September. You are still defending that, and now you are changing what you are trying to defend, by bringing up a new quote, that doesn’t change the first, and doesn’t make me wrong either time. Make up your mind….oh, and I have read the article you quoted, as well as alot more…obviously much more than you have….althought with your changing argument, you are attempting to catch up….
And, I only brought this up as an aside to your points, and you’re still arguing….and you’re still obviously wrong….wake up and smell the logic….
Walters does not deny saying what the quote says. He denies saying it ONLY TO BLACK STUDENTS, which is what I argued, and which is what the writer IMPLIES, where the writer makes the context. You are again defending something that is incorrect information. Is this a habit, or something you are just beginning to try?
Then, your last line…you don’t care if the number of nooses matters….why do you think the writer made sure it was three, and not find out the correct number? You even want to ignore the Klan reference, even though the writer of your article, and I’ve read it too, implies all over the article that all of the events involving the Jena Six are only about RACE….three nooses means something entirely different to the writer than two, hence the effort to pass to the reader, you, that there is a racist side to the nooses, a side that represents all that the south ONCE REPRESENTED TO THE WORLD….
Oh, and I did say it was a bad prank…no one here says that it should not have happened….I’ve even posted on other strings that NONE of this should have happened….
But, you need to get your facts straight….and stop changing what you try to argue….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/25/2007 @ 9:46 pmreff
One thing about VOR is that he/she/it is consistent. We are always the racists.
JD (4c1b7c) — 9/25/2007 @ 10:06 pmhttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena25_websep25,0,7139244,full.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout
Please read this
blah (f887f5) — 9/26/2007 @ 12:55 amI would like to point out a few things:
1. We can’t get a consistent account of whether there was a “Whites only” tree; whether the nooses were for racial intimidation, or part of a football pep rally; whether there were 3 nooses (symbolic of the clan) or two (not to excuse it, but a clear KKK reference with 3 seems to be a stronger offense
2. It seems there are details of Louisiana law to be taken into consideration. The claim in one article, as I quoted above, is that in Louisiana only certain charges can be used to bring to trial a juvenile as an adult. Bell already had 4 juvenile offenses against him, 2 being assault for which he was on probation until his 18th birthday, the DA felt it was time that enough was enough. Apparently no assault charge in LA can take a juvenile to adult, but attempted murder can. Once in the adult system, the attempted murder was lowered to an assault (of some degree) and he was tried and found guilty. That conviction has been overturned on appeal on the claim that he couldn’t be tried as an adult on that charge, with the DA’s argument that once in adult system, stays in adult system.
—So the issue is both one of logistical strategy as well as severity of the crime. Being knocked unconscious then kicked while down until witnesses intervene could have killed him, it’s been done. What is the intent in continuing the assault on someone who is unconscious and cannot defend themselves? It can’t be robbery, it can’t be considered “a fight”.
Details make a “little bit” of difference. Hopefully somebody with integrity will eventually write an indepth series of articles, actually quoting interviews with individuals involved.
Even if there was an angle by which to hold Jackson and Sharpton legally accountable for their causing more trouble than good, I’m sure it will not be done, and if done, covered in the most sensational way on their behalves.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/26/2007 @ 4:39 amAfter the black race pimps have their say along comes the white race pimp backlash. Oh No!
From the Chicago Tribune link above:
So, the noosehanging teens didn’t get punished enough so the black anger results in “fights”. White kids who win fights with angry blacks are charged less severly than the angry blacks who gang up on and beat a younger white kid (who didn’t want to fight) senseless. Go figure.
If that kind of reporting is supposed to be taken seriously no wonder this sh!t happens.
boris (ad3d7f) — 9/26/2007 @ 6:38 amOn what facts did Washington base this conclusion? Sounds like you’ve just arbitrarily selected one of two competing narratives.
Moops (444e9b) — 9/26/2007 @ 7:26 amOn what facts …
Ask Washington. Possibly that the student beaten senseless had nothing to do with the nooses. Possbily the length of time between the incidents. Possibly that the excuse used for the beating was things said about a recent fight that a black student lost.
boris (ad3d7f) — 9/26/2007 @ 7:36 amI’d like to ask him. Do you have his email address? I wouldn’t just want to accept his narrative without understanding the facts.
Moops (444e9b) — 9/26/2007 @ 8:06 amThis USDOJ link should provide a contact method.
boris (ad3d7f) — 9/26/2007 @ 8:40 amooops … Fixed Link
boris (ad3d7f) — 9/26/2007 @ 8:42 amI really can’t understand what is the justification or lack of for six thugs beating one individual. Is this justification for future incidents? So if we have a Farakhan speech can six whites beat the hell out of a black and use the speech as justification?
I am heartily sick of the race pimps and those attempting to pass hate crime laws.
All hail thought crimes and the gulags!
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/26/2007 @ 10:12 amOne white student. Six black students. That was the ratio. There is no feasible explanation of what threat was posed by a single white student, particularly AFTER he had been knocked to the ground unconscious. Nevertheless, these six thugs continued to kick and punch him as he lay helpless on the ground.
On the basis of simple fair play, this was execrable behavior. And frankly, until black demagogues quit canonizing every black defendant, regardless of guilt, simply because they are black, we will have no progress.
In other words – whatever their color – a thug is a thug is a thug. Let the punishment fit the crime. And let Jesse and Al move along. Nothing there for them to see – or exploit!
Gayle Miller (7f1feb) — 9/26/2007 @ 11:37 amJason Whitlock‘s piece in the Kansas City Star:
Read the entire article.
LarryD (feb78b) — 9/26/2007 @ 11:39 amAccording to this accounting: Here, it was the same students that were charged with the attempted murder battery. It’s a biased account, but contains a lot of interesting tidbits of witness accounts. Some of these are also backed up by reporting in the Chicago Tribune, which was one of the first newspapers to follow the case: Chicago Tribune stories.
It’s my understanding from some reading I’ve done surrounding the case, that racial tension remained high following the noose incident (and the responses to it), but were somewhat put aside during the football season (apparently this makes sense in a small-town southern context?) About a week or so before the assault, one of the black assailants was similarily accosted at a predominently white party.
It’s not hard to imagine in a high school context how the initial noose incident would continue to reverberate with the concerned student body; i.e. dramatically.
Bob Loblaw (23d1c4) — 9/26/2007 @ 11:43 amThe real heroes? 6 on 1 beating of a younger freshman student by varsity football athletes?
While saying “This will teach you to run your mother f***ing mouth.”
Nah. No way they’re he real heroes.
boris (ad3d7f) — 9/26/2007 @ 12:32 pmI think you missed my point Boris, but I’ll blame that on the lack of html code for ‘irony’.
(The strikethrough html code also failed me in my attempt to use it on attempted murder in my initial post.)
It does appear through some accounts that were linked in the Slate article’s comments that at least some of the Jena 6 were involved in the initial peaceful protests that are praised in the Slate article. I find that ironic.
Its too bad that things went from bad to worse in this whole affair – not overly surprising when you consider that it is highly emotional teenagers involved. And yes Boris, from the witness accounts it does appear that the victim was baiting his assailants, and no that does not justify the treatment he received as a result.
All of the teenagers involved come off as just that to me; stupid emotionally charged teenagers with an overly dramatic sense of themselves and poor self-control. It’s the adults involved that come off looking poorly in my mind (including the 22 year old and cohorts that assaulted the black kid just prior to the school assault). The original charge of attempted murder was just retarded and was well beyond the justice called for in this situation.
BTW the escalated violence starting in late November seems to have been sparked by the arson of the school. It will be interesting if they can ever determine who was responsible for that.
Bob Loblaw (23d1c4) — 9/26/2007 @ 2:03 pmThe original charge of attempted murder was just retarded and was well beyond the justice called for in this situation.
I know that is difficult to read every post in an extended thread, but in #15 and #29 above I point out that in Louisiana only certain charges can be used to put a juvenile into the adult court system, attempted murder will do it, assault (I guess even aggravated, etc.) will not. As Bell already was on probation until his 18th birthday for 2 violent crimes, the DA wanted to get him into the adult, and try to keep him there even when the charges were lowered.
I don’t think you’ve weighed in on this point specifically, Patterico. We know that kicking someone while unconscious on the ground can kill. So when six are kicking someone who is out on the ground, and stop only when people intervene, why is it so outrageous to charge with attempted murder? It does sound a bit of a stretch, but not outrageous (especially if you ask the parents of a child who was kicked to death).
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/26/2007 @ 2:42 pmAttempted murder requires proof of specific intent to kill beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless the defendant credibly confesses that he intended to kill the victim AND his acts reasonably furthered that purpose*, intent must be inferred from the circumstances. The weapons and force used and the harm inflicted being paramount.
* I am not guilty of attempted murder if I intend to kill somebody but all I do is stick pins in a wax effigy of him.
nk (7d4710) — 9/26/2007 @ 3:08 pmNot only is there almost no coverage in the corporate media of black violent crimes against white people, but in high profile cases, they proffer black criminals as ‘real victims’.
To illustrate the bias in the corporate media, imagine if the facts were reversed – if a gang of six white kids led by someone with four previous convictions for violent-crime had attacked a lone black student, kicking and stomping him into unconsciousness. As far as the corporate media are concerned, they would be interviewing the black victim on every TV talk show across the land, discussing his fear, his pain, his suffering. They would be interviewing his crying relatives and friends. They would not be voicing any fear that the white attackers would be treated too harshly, or that they would be treated at all. The attackers would not be celebrated in the dailies and across the TV networks.
DLR (f07f25) — 9/27/2007 @ 1:40 amThank you nk.
So in a beating, it is usually a judgement call from the severity of the attack.
Shooting somebody in the chest 3 times who is not seriously injured because of a kevlar vest could be charged with attempted murder, as the act clearly had the force and expectation of lethal injury.
So:
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/27/2007 @ 3:57 amIf a person is unconscious on the ground after an attack, one kick by the attacker before walking away doubtfully could be construed as attempted murder. Repeatedly kicking fiercely while saying, “I’m going to kill the *(&%*&&^(^%” until pulled off by arriving police may well be. Then you have points in between.
Non crimen sin legen. There are no crimes without laws.
There was a case in Texas, maybe a little more than a year ago, where a man found his wife in bed with another man. He shot them both, killing his wife and wounding the boyfriend. He got six months for the voluntary manslaughter of his wife. “Heat of passion” reduces culpability for a homicide. He got fifteen years for the attempted murder of the boyfriend. Attempted murder was all or nothing. The way the statute read it was not consistent with intent to kill to be so out of your mind with rage or fear that you could not intend to kill.
The way a statute is written; the way it fits into the overall penal scheme; the way the prosecutor brings the charge; the way the jury is instructed; are determinative of the final outcome.
There is a little of the bed of Procrustes in the process. It is not always a perfect fit and sometimes a little stretching or lopping off is done.
Your results may vary. Consult with an attorney but do not expect a perfect answer. Side effects may include “unjust” convictions or acquittals, hung juries, reversals on appeal, commutations, pardons and rewriting of the laws.
nk (7d4710) — 9/27/2007 @ 5:28 amNK wrote:
That was Texas; why didn’t the “they needed killin'” defense work? Or was it only ’cause he didn’t finish the job?
Dana (3e4784) — 9/27/2007 @ 6:10 amHeh, Dana.
MD in Philly,
I believe my previous comment may be more effective if we include the indications as well as the side effects.
Law: Indicated for the treatment of people not getting along with people.
nk (7d4710) — 9/27/2007 @ 6:22 amNK:
I believe Shakespeare had you in mind when he wrote to lawyers.
But why let justice come between lawyers and thewir beloved laws?
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/27/2007 @ 6:34 amShut up, dude. Just because nk knows the Law doesn’t mean that he necessarily agrees with its merit.
Leviticus (ed6d31) — 9/27/2007 @ 6:44 amLook, they jumped a kid as he came through a doorway. Knocked him out in the first couple of blows, and dog-piled him. They only stopped because they were stopped by an uninvolved student.
Had they not been stopped, it’s very likely that at the least the victim would have ended up with far, far worse injuries.
It’s not like he was able to defend himself.
I really don’t have a problem with the attackers being charged with attempted murder. But for 30 seconds, they might have killed him…
Scott Jacobs (425810) — 9/27/2007 @ 6:53 amAs I began this last skirmish, let me end it (now there!).
I appreciate nk’s comments, including translating “lawese” into “medicalese”.
FYI, Mr. Jackson, nk and I have “only disagreed once”, and even then were not at complete disagreement. You just need to know nk better. Leviticus is right, nk doesn’t necessarily agree with things as they are, he just gives the facts as he has experienced them.
(Patronizing warning to virtual little brother: Leviticus, I’m glad you helped to clarify the communication, but, have you ever heard the saying, “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”.)
Scott Jacobs, I agree with you, and I’m sure nk doesn’t minimize the violence of the crime nor the risk of fatal injury. He is simply commenting on how the law is currently practiced, whether we like it or not.
Theology reference warning: “Non crimen sin legen. There are no crimes without laws.”
Paul the Apostle wrote something similar about sin and the Law of God.
Darleen, is that the situation that was written about on this site where the woman cried rape? Or another one? I didn’t realize the woman had been shot.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/27/2007 @ 9:38 amOops, oops, oops.
I wrote “Darleen” instead of Dana, my apology.
And I asked the question of Dana, when actually it should have gone to nk.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/27/2007 @ 9:41 am“Patronizing warning to virtual little brother: Leviticus, I’m glad you helped to clarify the communication, but, have you ever heard the saying, “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”.
-MD in Philly
Point taken. Besides, I don’t think telling me not to be a jerk is patronizing.
“Theology reference warning: “Non crimen sin legen. There are no crimes without laws.”
Paul the Apostle wrote something similar about sin and the Law of God.”
-MD in Philly
Right: as Jesus took the place of the Law, sin no longer held sway over man. What book was that?
Leviticus (1daf74) — 9/27/2007 @ 10:17 am2 Corinthians? Romans?
MD in Philly #52,
No, it was a different case.
nk (7d4710) — 9/27/2007 @ 10:24 amThanks, nk.
So if the guy died also he would have been charged with a crime “in the heat of passion” and received a considerably shorter sentence?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 9/27/2007 @ 7:17 pmMD in Philly #56,
Well … yes and no. There are varying degrees of homicide (Texas’s scheme seems to be very close to Iliinois’s) and except for vehicular homicide they are all considered lesser included offenses of murder. So the defendant may very well have been charged with murder but he would have been able to argue that his mental state, extreme rage provoked by the victims, fit him better into the crime of voluntary manslaughter. The jury need not have known that voluntary manslaughter is probationable, does not have a mandatory minimum sentence and (in Illinois) cannot be enhanced because a firearm was used.
Attempted murder is all or nothing. There are no lesser includeds. The jury had to find him either guilty or not guilty. Again, the jury need not have known that attempted murder is non-probationable, carries a mandatory minimum sentence and is enhanced if a firearm is used.
So, in my opinion, the jury knew he had done something wrong (just as we all know that the Jena defendants did something wrong) and tried to fit him into the crimes which seemed to best describe his conduct. Their verdict in turn constrained the judge inside the range of authorized sentences.
But it all goes back to the criminal statutes from which the prosecutor must choose to charge and about which the judge must instruct the jury.
nk (7d4710) — 9/28/2007 @ 5:27 amLev:
I really wouldn’t want you to use your commonsense when you’re doing so well demonstrating your ignorance.
NK’s comments verge on the assinine. Can someone demonstrate repeated kicks to the head will not kill? Just as using a baseball strike to the head may not kill does anyone seriously doubt the intend? Perhaps in NK’s world. But then again I don’t wear ideological blinders.
The persistence of venality is beyond belief. Yeah we all know about charges and procedures, we saw it in the Duke case.
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/28/2007 @ 1:31 pmThomas #58:
It’s better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Why don’t you give the other readers here the benefit of your non-ideological, eyes-open, legal analysis and save their impressionable young minds from the perdition I’m leading them to.
nk (7d4710) — 9/28/2007 @ 2:48 pmNK:
I believe you’ve done an excellent job in spreading the darkness. When one depends on the law rather than seek justice one demonstrates the kind of moral rudderlessness you have done so compellingly in your comments. The American public has come to depend on the legal system not deny reality and common sense and substitute artifical standards guide3d by ideological blinders which you have so firmly in place.
The discarding of the MacNaughton rule is the prime instance of how our system has become corrupt. If the US returned to the standards and principles used 100 years ago we would be a better society than the jungle our legal system has created.
Do inform us again of why substituting the law is in your eyes a better standard than reason, logic, and common sense. In your unblickered, castrati way. I do enjoy reading your screeds, they remind me of a 4th rate associate at a sixth rate law firm. Chase an ambulance.
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/28/2007 @ 11:55 pmThe discarding of the MacNaughton rule is the prime instance of how our system has become corrupt.
Now I understand, Thomas. The court didn’t buy your insanity defense so you’re down on the law, generally. Out of curiosity, what are you in for?
nk (7d4710) — 9/29/2007 @ 3:26 amAccording to your doctor’s it was believing you’re sane and that your family was sane. I understand that they’ve been confined for years and still are.
By the way tell us how you manage a computer with the IQ of a carrot?
I find it interesting that the Klingons didn’t have a word for clueless idiot till they met you.
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/30/2007 @ 2:01 pmnoose!
brotha (abb212) — 7/17/2008 @ 10:03 am