Patterico's Pontifications

10/8/2006

North Korea Apparently Tests Nuke

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:03 pm

Hot Air has details. Apparently it was a bit of a fizzle . . . but most people appear convinced that it took place.

Not good. Really not good.

Comments (40)

40 Responses to “North Korea Apparently Tests Nuke”

It could have been a nuclear test. Or maybe an earthquake.
Different River (90e181) — 10/8/2006 @ 11:15 pm
I don’t think the North Korean nuclear test is the big story tonight.

I think it’s a ruse. I believe it is a distraction.

Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs posted a story tonight that I consider bigger: a possible attack on the home of English-speaking civilization?

Britain, i.e., London.

Report: UK Metro Police Chief Issues Ominous Warning
littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22879_Report-_UK_Metro_Police_Chief_Issues_Ominous_Warning&only

It’s speculative so don’t take your eye or thoughts off of North Korea and Japan, but consider it in context. It may be part of a larger plan.
Christoph (9824e6) — 10/8/2006 @ 11:27 pm
Back to life…back to reality…
Good Lt (cf8676) — 10/9/2006 @ 5:23 am
– Any of you Libdorks want to discuss the “Clinton legacy” now, or would you rather ignore the important world events, and go on gay bashing a disgraced ex-Senator.

– You guys would be all set if only your Marxist brothers all over the world in Totalitarian states, would just stop peeing in your political cornflakes at such untimely moments.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 8:42 am
and go on gay bashing a disgraced ex-Senator.

Gay bashing? Senator? Did you fall into the medicare donut hole and can’t afford your meds anymore?
actus (10527e) — 10/9/2006 @ 9:07 am
– Nice deflection actout – I see you havn’t lost your touch in running away from reality.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 9:09 am
I see you havn’t lost your touch in running away from reality.

Running away from the reality of gay bashing SENATORS?
actus (10527e) — 10/9/2006 @ 9:27 am
– You mean you wish you’d be able to revise history actup. Unfortunately Clinton “owns” this one, in spite of all your efforts to cover for his appeasing butt. The more you try to deny the mistakes he made, mistakes you on the Left want to make yet again in the WOT, the more singularly unsuited you look to hold positions of power.

– (You can continue to try to deflect with ad hominems, but I don’t think most posters familiar with your one trick pony act will bother responding. Try to focus on the subject, as hard as that might be.)
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 9:35 am
Try to focus on the subject, as hard as that might be.

Your posts don’t make that task any easier, Big Bang Hunter, unless it’s your intention to focus on Clinton’s role in gay-bashing Senators.

But if your point is to blame Clinton for North Korea testing a nuclear weapon this week, it might behoove us to remember that Clinton hasn’t been the President for the past 6 years. So what did our current President do to stop North Korea? He clearly knew there was a danger, as Unclaimed Territory points out with these quotes and commentary from President Bush’s 2002 State of the Union address:

“Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens. . . .

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic. . . .

We’ll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world’s most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world’s most destructive weapons.”

Whatever else might be true, the President has had six years to operate with a completely free hand — meaning nothing but rubber-stamping support from Congress — concerning North Korea. The President vowed that he would not permit exactly this situation to emerge — namely, that one of the “world’s most dangerous regimes” would acquire “the world’s most dangerous weapons.” And yet that is exactly what North Korea has blithely proceeded to do under this administration.

It is impossible to contest the fact that the administration has done nothing to improve the situation. Quite the contrary. Negotiations with North Korea have regressed, not progressed. In response to our empty and hollowed belligerence, the North Koreans have become more belligerent, not more cooperative. They have acquired greater weapons capability right in front of our faces. And now they have tested a nuclear weapon.

So how exactly did Bush back-up his rhetoric and keep North Korea from acquiring weapsons of mass destruction?
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:05 am
You can continue to try to deflect with ad hominems … Try to focus on the subject, as hard as that might be

Yes. Hard to focus with all the fuzzyness.
actus (10527e) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:09 am
So how exactly did Bush back-up his rhetoric and keep North Korea from acquiring weapsons of mass destruction?

– Nice try rick. “E” for effort. Unfortunately its a strawman with no straw. The NK already had said weapons, develped under Clinton’s nose while he was busy giving them everything they needed, and following the usual head in the sand approach of his administration. Continueing that approach, the empty meme you’d like to sell the american electorate would simply be madness.

– Here’s “truthiness to tinhats”. By the time Bush took the reins the damage had already been done. Horse out of the barn, and your wonderful “UN” gaggle of Oil for food scam masters would do nothing.

– This is not an area you want to debate. It just amplifies all your weakness’s in dealing with international bad actors. I wouldn’t go there if I were in your cult, but it’s up to you.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:12 am
Here’s “truthiness to tinhats”. By the time Bush took the reins the damage had already been done.

Really? Then why didn’t Mr Bush tell us that back in 2002? Why all the rhetoric about how he wouldn’t permit that to happen if it already had?
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:24 am
– rick, thats a rather bad approach to this. The NK’s antics have been widely known for years since Clinton left office. Kim was not at all shy in bragging about their accomplishments during Clinton’s administration. You either need to brush up on your reading or get out more.

– Try another angle.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:29 am
Big Bang Hunter revealed that:

The NK already had said weapons, develped under Clinton’s nose while he was busy giving them everything they needed

Okay, let me make sure I got you right: North Korea already had the weapons that Bush vowed that he would not let North Korea acquire because they developed them while Clinton was still President even though the CIA determined in 2002 that North Korea did not have nuclear weapons, but Bush vowed not to let them acquire them, anyways.

Is that right?
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 10:58 am
– I’ll help you out here rick. The answer is that with the defiance of Russia, and all the “crook” nations in the UN, and even more, China, the truth is that neither Administration has had the means to stop the NK’s development of NW’s.

– It just get’s tiresome listening to the Left’s yammering about Clinton’s “great deeds”. He played right into the NK’s hands by attempting to appease them, and providing them exactly what they needed to succeed. But agian, with the stuuborn lack of world support, America could really not do much of anything during either adminsitration.

– The danger now would be to follow the same approach with Iran, the failed appeasement policies of Clinton, and the Left, will never work with despots.

– China now finds itself in a real mess, trying to deal with it’s “bad-boy” little protectorate. They have played a game of status quo since the Korean war, because their worst nightmare has always been a rebirth of the Japanese military, which they trully fear. I would imagine that Japan’s recent announcement that they might have to join the nuclear powers because of the actions of NK, has the leaders in Beijing totally frantic, trying to look for a way out from the mess.

– Another problem China would face is any collapse in the NK would result in millions of NK refuges flowing into China, something they’ve been trying to avoid for years. It’s a real mess alright, and they have themselves to blame for it.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:00 am
Is there anything bush could have done? Or was it all just empty rhetoric?
actus (10527e) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:03 am
– I honestly don’t think there’s anything anyone could do, short of an armed invasion, which there would be no support for, and universal condemnation.

– But to answer you little snark directly, which is worse, trying to at least sound tough, or misguided appeasement that just hastens the worst endgame. So in the end, both Presidents were helpless to act, short of outright aggression in an area that China see’s as the key to it’s very survival. No good options.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:14 am
I posted:

the CIA determined in 2002 that North Korea did not have nuclear weapons

when I should have posted: The CIA had not determined in 2002 that North Korea had nuclear weapons.

Though North Korea had already acquired enough fissionable material prior to 1992 and therefore prior to Clinton’s Presidency to build a nuclear weapon, it was a matter of considerable debate within the intelligence community as to whether or not North Korea had actually assembled a functional nuclear weapon by 2002.
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:29 am
– Of course your side, never missing an opportunity to politicize every world event, blames it all on Bush. Reid must be the most feckless public figure since Chamberlain.

– We face some very real, and present threats, and the Lefts propensity to try to use each and everything that happens for political gain, is a real loser with the electorate. It brands you as “unsavory and power hungry”, and uninterested in anything except “party”. The Right slips into this rut too at times, but not nearly as much.

– One of your own, Former congressman Frost, Tex(D) said this “[should] not be a Democrat/Republican issue in any way. Both parties should look for solutions shoulder to shoulder, and forget partisan bickering and talking points”.

– Be great, but I just don’t think the Left has enough introspect to follow his advice. The kicker is that if the Democrats did they would gain a lot of respect with the voters in a way they will never achieve with smear campaigns and “Bush bad” rhetoric.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:34 am
– Sure Rick. The same worldwide Intel community that assured us that Saddam had WMD’s.

– So far their batting average for the past 18 years is 0.000 percent. You might have a point, except NK themselves said they had them. So flip a coin. What’s to lose if you’re wrong. Hell we have lots of city’s.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:42 am
Big Bang Hunter thoughtfully posted:

the truth is that neither Administration has had the means to stop the NK’s development of NW’s.

You may be right, BBH, as neither Clinton nor Bush was really all that successful in stopping the North Koreans from developing nuclear weapons. But you’ve been trying to blame the former, and there’s really no point in doing that. As for the latter, there may be no point in blaming him, either, but he is the President, not Clinton. It’s Bush’s policies, not Clinton’s, that are in effect now. We can’t change what Clinton did, but we might be able to change what Bush does. In this regard, the current policies still aren’t working, so sticking to them just doesn’t make sense.
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:46 am
Big Bang Hunter — you have some good points, although I find it odd that you are decrying partisanship when you were the first person in this thread to attempt to lay blame for this on any particular individual or party. Perhaps you were responding to rhetoric you’ve seen elsewhere; but I haven’t seen that rhetoric, so it seems to me that you are engaged in precisely the kind of behavior you are condemning the left for.

That said … if North Korea really set off a nuclear bomb and isn’t just deceiving us, it’s a quite decisive statement that the current US policy on how to interact with North Korea has failed. It’s also a fairly strong statement that the previous policy was a failure, as well.

Yet what we should be asking is, where do we go from here? It’s tempting to say that this is China’s problem, not ours, and to call upon China to act as a real regional leader. But that might lead to rapid proliferation throughout the reason — if North Korea has nukes, both Japan and South Korea have reason to get them; and once Japan has them, how far behind is Indonesia?

The geopolitical stability of the entirety of east asia is at risk, here. I don’t have a clue what the administration should do going forward; does anyone?
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:49 am
BBH: you’ve just touched on my biggest frustration with the WMDs-in-Iraq situation: the entire worldwide intelligence community thought they were there. Everyone was wrong.

So why the **** aren’t we engaged in some sort of investigation designed to figure out why our intelligence services are so incompetent, and to fix them? I don’t want to score partisan points here, I want the situation fixed so that we can rely on the information our spooks are giving us. Because right now it doesn’t appear that we can.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:51 am
Sure Rick. The same worldwide Intel community that assured us that Saddam had WMD’s.

It was the politicians that ‘assured’ us of Iraq’s WMD; the intelligence community, we now know, had serious reservations.

It was Bush, not Clinton and not the intelligence community, that made the decision to invade Iraq, and so the responsibility for that decision and it’s consequences rests solely with Bush.
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 11:54 am
– As Bolton said today, “World uninimity is absolutely key to going forward, and dealing with nuclear proliferation”.

– We simply can no longer afford to be distracted with homeland partisan bickering on the one hand, and stubborn UN intractibility on the other. The UN needs to become the standard bearer to counter these threats, or a new world organization will have to step up to the plate. The Europe Bloc needs to forget self-serving appeasement, and join in the task. All of the free nations have to stop playing the kings new clothes, and take this situation seriuosly, recognizing that if anything, they are in more danger than we are.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 12:09 pm
“It was the politicians….”

– Yes Rick. ALL of them, including Hillery, Kerry, Dean, etc etc.

– Their speeches are all a matter of public record, as well as endless videos of them all condemning Hussein, and gushing about “his imminent threat”. I honestly do not understand Why you keep beating this foolisly dead horse.

Any political worth it may have had is totally dismantled with those video speeches by your leaders. Give it up. It’s not a winning argument anymore. Revisionism has been overdone at this point. It just makes you look unserious.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 12:22 pm
aphrael – If I had to guess, I think China will be the most likely decider. If things get bad enough, I’m betting China will just annex the NK, and take over leadership, making great pains to announce each and every move, and make peace with S. Korea and Japan. They have every reason to not want a massive interuption in their on-going modernization, and success’s in the world economy, but even more they would do just about anything to avoid a nuclear armed Japan.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 1:35 pm
Yes Rick. ALL of them, including Hillery, Kerry, Dean, etc etc.

– Their speeches are all a matter of public record, as well as endless videos of them all condemning Hussein, and gushing about “his imminent threat”. I honestly do not understand Why you keep beating this foolisly dead horse.

So which one of all of them, Hillary, Kerry, Dean, etc etc. sent the US to war?

Yes, their speeches are a matter of public record, including those of Howard Dean who opposed the war and said before we invaded Iraq:

“We must remember, though, that Iraq is not the greatest danger we face today. Consider, to begin with, North Korea. The Administration says it is wrong to draw a parallel between the situations in Iraq and North Korea, because those situations are quite different. I agree.Iraq has let UN inspectors back in. North Korea has kicked them out. Saddam Hussein does not have a clear path to acquiring nuclear weapons. North Korea may already have them – and is on a clear path to acquiring more.“

And who is beating what dead horse? Who brought up “faulty intelligence” and then a list of Democrats when none of those sent the US to war? It’s those responsible for making America’s foreign policy decisions that are responsible for America’s foreign policy decisions.

If it’s a “dead horse”, as you say, to bring up intelligence data and Democrats, why do you persist in doing so?
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 2:41 pm
– Um, I think you’re arguing with yourself now Rick. But don’t let that stop you. Yes Bush is president, yes it was his decision to make in terms of war. The congress voted, Hillery among them. We’re not sure if the public record is accurate about Kerry’s vote, since he’s changed his mind so many times on just what he did.

– Do you have a point to make in all of this, other than you don’t like Bush, and you love to try to use the difficulties in any war against him. Because if not your’re boring the crap out of everyone.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 3:12 pm
– And Pat….if it was not good up til now, it just got even more not good. The NK is saying it plans on another test this Thursday. Apparently the first one was somewhat of a fizzle, and they want to make sure that they hasten their own demise.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/9/2006 @ 6:23 pm
Big Bang Hunter posted:

Do you have a point to make in all of this, other than you don’t like Bush, and you love to try to use the difficulties in any war against him. Because if not your’re boring the crap out of everyone.

Oops, my bad; I didn’t mean to. I just wanted to be sure I got this all straight, and your comments really helped bring out the facts. Thanks so much for indulging me with your replies and posts.
Rick (c7fbdd) — 10/9/2006 @ 8:38 pm
Hey GREENPEACE why dont they go to north korea and oppose this and what about HANOI JANE,JIMMY CARTER and all those idiots in their sandles go over there and declare a nucular weapons free zone if you liberal wussies have the gumption why dont you go over there and oppose this THE REASON IS THAT THEY WOULD PROBIBLY END UP BARRED FROM ENTERING and GREENPEACE would end up lying dead
krazy kagu (956b5b) — 10/10/2006 @ 6:48 am
– But wait – there’s more….that mountain of a statesman J. Edgar Kerry has a “plan” for North Korea…. “[there] were no WMD’s in Iraq. I’m shocked….”. the man is a veritable walking storehouse of astute political observation. And a complete twit.

– Apparently no one on his staff can show him where NK is at on a map.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/10/2006 @ 7:43 am
President Bush forced the UN’s hand in trying to deal with Saddam. The UN was unwilling to enforce it’s resolutions. President Bush decided to lead the “coalition of the willing”. He was criticized for “acting unilaterally”.

President Bush again first enlists a group to confront NK, this time of regional powers, not the UN. He is criticized for not acting unilaterally.

President Bush calls the sky blue, again he is criti…. oops.

My oldest offered the thought that we should have dealt with NK first. I reminded him that Saddam had ongoingly violated terms of a cease fire that ended a conflict started by his invasion of Kuwait. While we all know that caches of WMD were not found stacked and ready to deploy in Iraq, we should also all know that the conclusive evidence shows he was all set to crank up his WMD programs as soon as sanctions were lifted. Indeed, the sanctions were already failing as revealed by the undermining of the “Oil for Food” program that was discovered by going through documents captured after the fall of Baghdad.

I doubt the US will ever act fully in a pre-emptive capacity, too much opposition within our own country, even. I think the best we can hope for is a willingness to act after “less than horrendous attacks”. The worst we can expect is countinued bickering, even after something major happens, that prevents appropriate action.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 10/10/2006 @ 9:29 am
– It must be terribly discouraging to have to deal on a daily basis with the chuckleheaded prounouncements of a major figure in your party. Kerry evidently thinks Baghdad is the capital of Manchuria. I feel Ricks pain.

– BTW, since according to the SP’s, Bush is all omniverant, and thus to blame for everything that happens on the Planet, I notice they’re silent when it comes to blaming him for the “15” major hurricanes that weren’t this year. Thankfully no one was killed or hurt during this season, except maybe for the feeling’s of the “global hot-air” cult. Gore may have to re-invent something, if armeggedon doesn’t happen soon.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/10/2006 @ 9:59 am
Um, I think you’re arguing with yourself now Rick. But don’t let that stop you. Yes Bush is president, yes it was his decision to make in terms of war. The congress voted, Hillery among them. We’re not sure if the public record is accurate about Kerry’s vote, since he’s changed his mind so many times on just what he did.

– Do you have a point to make in all of this, other than you don’t like Bush, and you love to try to use the difficulties in any war against him. Because if not your’re boring the crap out of everyone.

…It must be terribly discouraging to have to deal on a daily basis with the chuckleheaded prounouncements of a major figure in your party. Kerry evidently thinks Baghdad is the capital of Manchuria. I feel Ricks pain.

Gee, BBH; and you said everyone was getting bored…

You’re just arguing with yourself now, BBH, but don’t let that stop you. Yes, Kerry ran for president, but it wasn’t his decision to make war on Iraq and do nothing about North Korea. The entire administration was wrong about Iraq on everything from WMD to Saddam’s ties to Al Qaeda to the post-invasion occupation plans. We’re not sure why were in Iraq, since Bush has changed his mind so many times on why he ordered the US into the fiasco.

And now another charter member of the “axis of evil” from whom Bush vowed to protect us has demonstrated once again how badly his policies have failed. Do you have a point to make in all of this, other than you don’t like Kerry, and you love to try to change the subject from Dean to Clinton and gay bashing senators to avoid admitting how badly Bush has screwed-up?

It must be terribly discouraging to have to deal on a daily basis with every scandal and failure of your party and your President. I don’t feel your pain, BBH, because I don’t feel obligated to defend a failed presidency.
Rick (c4e376) — 10/10/2006 @ 3:56 pm
“…because I don’t feel obligated to defend a failed presidency…”

– Of course not. No one would expect you to try to defend Clinton and Maggie’s appeasement policies, and the rewards given to little Kim each and every time he lied and broke his promise’s. I don’t blame you one bit. I mean who wants to defend an adminsitration that single handidly armed a rogue state with nukes. I understand. no prob Rick. Consider the topic moot.

– Although, if for no other reason than taking pity on the poor clown, one of your side should call Kerry’s office, and explain to him that Pyungyang is not in the ME. Thanks for playing.
Big Bang Hunter (9562fb) — 10/10/2006 @ 4:26 pm
[…] 10/10/2006 @ 6:48 am: Hey GREENPEACE why dont they go to north korea and oppose this and what about HANOI JANE,JIMMY CARTER and all those idiots in their sandles go over there and declare a nucular weapons free zone if you liberal wussies have the gumption why dont you go over there and oppose this THE REASON IS THAT THEY WOULD PROBIBLY END UP BARRED FROM ENTERING and GREENPEACE would end up lying dead […]
Patterico’s Pontifications » Krazy Kagu Outed: He Is Spurwing Plover (421107) — 10/11/2006 @ 12:00 am
All this finger-pointing about who is to “blame” for Kim’s “bomb” is stupid. Why don’t people blame Kim himself? This article makes clear that the old truth that “politics stops at the water’s edge” is no longer true.

Democrats need to quit acting like spoiled 3-year olds blaming the Republicans for all the problems this nation faces. If they want to get elected, they need to show Americans that Democrats are Americans and not a branch office of Jacque Cirac’s party!

As for blame over Kim’s “bomb,” there’s plenty of it go go around as this article makes clear.
Dubya (c16726) — 10/11/2006 @ 8:18 am
Rick-

I know why President Bush decided to attack Saddam. Anyone who listened to his original speech way back when should know why too. The reasons haven’t changed in essence, in my opinion, even if some of the details were not as anticipated.

Let’s compare how the two situations have been dealt with. (Simply restating what I just heard President Bush say on radio at his press conference.)

Ruled by tyrant: Iraq-Y(old regime); N. Korea-Y

Country known for invasion of neighbors:
Iraq-Y (old regime); N. Korea-Y

Hostilities ended with peace agreement:
Iraq-Y (old regime); N. Korea-Y

Peace agreement violated:
Iraq-Y, repeatedly from early 1990’s on
N. Korea-N (never tried to invade S. Korea again- although I don’t know if they broke other
terms)

US Response:

Iraq- years of diplomacy, gathering of world opinion against regime, military action of “coalition of the willing” led by US when rest of UN would not follow through

N. Korea- helped insure defense of S. Korea
-entered into diplomacy one-on-one for many years to prevent increased threat- failed due to N. Korea cheating
-entered into regional diplomacy-apparently failed to date because N. Korea cheating
-some period of continued increased diplomatic pressure, perhaps to be successful or perhaps to fail, thus raising possibility of military action of “last resort”, just as in Iraq

Looks to me as the same response over at least two, if not three administrations (push coming to shove with N. Korea may not happen within the next two years). I’m not too much into blaming Clinton myself, I usually just point things out in response to accusations against President Bush. President Clinton may have been able to do more at steps along the way, but as we have seen, getting Bin Laden alone does not solve the problem. I don’t think both Roosevelt’s, Ike, and JFK together could have lead the US into Afghanistan until after the US mainland took a direct hit.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 10/11/2006 @ 10:01 am

10/8/2006

North Korea Apparently Tests Nuke

40 Responses to “North Korea Apparently Tests Nuke”

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