Patterico's Pontifications

9/25/2006

Allen: Give It Up (UPDATE: Or Not?)

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:49 pm



George Allen is hosed.

UPDATE: Hmmmm. Sabato seems to be backing off his statements. This is murkier than it appeared yesterday.

61 Responses to “Allen: Give It Up (UPDATE: Or Not?)”

  1. Yup, he’s hosed all right. If a paper as balanced as the New York Times says it, it must be true.

    Xrlq (1a2fae)

  2. It sounds more like the “Gotcha” press at work. Where were these people 6 years ago when George Allen was running for the same seat? Senator Allen is in a close battle, so the Democrats are looking in every swamp and septic tank for muck. The media is playing a willing accomplice. Frankly, I don’t know much about Senator Allen, but it certainly seems like a first-class smear campaign is going on. I guess Webb is too soft on the issues to go toe-to-toe with the Senator.

    Steve (649c9f)

  3. The Allen response will determine if he is truly hosed. The NYT doesn’t carry a lot of weight in VA, and if Allen comes out swinging hard, he can shore up his support… as well as grab some votes from the (few) undecideds left, who may well determine they don’t like the smear tactics. On the other hand, if he handles it as poorly as he did his responses to (1) macacca and (2) the ‘are you a jew’, then you can stick a fork in him. Now that I think of it, if past is predictor, then there’s nothing to make me think he’ll handle this the right way.

    steve sturm (d3e296)

  4. The Democrats are reminding more and more of my little sister as we were growing up…”Mommy, Mommy he said a bad word!” Were I a Virginian, I’d vote for Allen just to keep the price of Tinfoil down…

    paul from fl (464e99)

  5. Because, God, yes, if someone used racial slurs 2 decades ago it REALLY shows something about who they are now. And why didn’t these guys complain in every Allen campaign he’s had in the last 20 years?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  6. Do you use now, or have you ever used, a word that might be offensive to a group of hyphenated-Americans? If that’s demonstrates the depth of political thinking in this country, [bold]we’re[/bold] hosed.

    diffus (f5ebbf)

  7. Frankly, I don’t know much about Senator Allen, but it certainly seems like a first-class smear campaign is going on.

    He should stand next to his righteous symbols of a confederate flag and a noose. That will clear things up.

    actus (10527e)

  8. He should stand next to his righteous symbols of a confederate flag and a noose. That will clear things up.

    Or maybe next to Senator KKK Byrd (D).

    Oops! Sorry to ruin the fun, actard.

    Good Lt (cf8676)

  9. Or maybe next to Senator KKK Byrd (D).

    Oops! Sorry to ruin the fun, actard.

    See, Byrd figured out how to do it. And I don’t think he used ‘ethnic rallies’

    actus (10527e)

  10. Wow, actus, your comment has all the depth of a mud puddle.

    Are the hearsay comments from over 30 years ago that come to light only during a political campaign even relevent? If this is the case, I’ll be waiting on the expose for Senator Byrd’s invovlement in the KKK. Oh, wait, Byrd’s involvement with the KKK isn’t hearsay. My bad. How about Jesse “Hymietown” Jackson? Nope, that wasn’t hearsay, either.

    Please post again when you haven’t used up your two intelligent thoughts for the month.

    Steve (649c9f)

  11. Wow, actus, your comment has all the depth of a mud puddle.

    Sububurban CA privilege boy with his confederate flag and noose? Not so muddy. Kind of sad really.

    actus (10527e)

  12. Yet another Dem smear campaign. The leftists know they can’t challenge Allen on his record, so they concoct lies about what he supposedly said many years ago. It’s the old tactic based on not the veracity of the charge but the headline-grabbing seriousness of it.

    Scott Hyland (6d198a)

  13. Sububurban CA privilege boy with his confederate flag and noose? Not so muddy. Kind of sad really.

    Again, direct your idiotic equivalence to your boy Byrd (who your allies – the racists, white supremecist Democrats – keep reelecting).

    He was part of a lynch mob called the Klan. Allen? Not so much.

    Way to debate the “issues,” actard. Game over.

    Good Lt (cf8676)

  14. Actus,

    Moreover, didn’t KKK Byrd use the “N” word as recently as 5 years ago in an interview? Where was the outrage then? Where was the outrage for the infamous race-baiter (resulting in actual deaths) and liar (ruining a good man’s reputation in re: Tawana Brawley’s lies) when Al Sharpton ran for the dem nomination for President?

    Anyone with an ounce of honesty will admit that the Dems’ use and misuse of race is much, much worse than anything that any republican ever dreamed of. Indeed, the dems are the party of the Klan, Jim Crow, lynchings, and opposing civil rights legislation for over 50 years. How America is stupid enough to actually believe the dems are morally superior on race is ridiculous.

    But, as we are all well aware, dems cannot win any campaign on issues, so must always resort to smear campaigns and the use of the race-card. Doesn’t that make you feel dirty Actus?

    – GB

    Great Banana (aa0c92)

  15. MSM editors long ago forgot how to distinguish between a scurrilous innuendo and real news. If it was important enough to mention, it should have been mentioned the first time Allen ran for high office.

    If private conversations in the 1970s and 1980s are fair game, then so is KKK membership, however far in the past. So are anti-semitic remarks, affiliation, however loose, with those who have made anti-semitic or racist remarks. So is drowning a young women by abandoning her after drunkenly driving one’s car, carrying said young woman as a passenger, off of a bridge. So is being stupid enough to light up a joint and then fail to inhale (take your pick as to which of the two is stupid — there’s something for everyone there). So is presenting after-action combat reports as “official” when the author is the one who gets the purple band-aid/ticket home resulting from the report. So is slandering one’s fellow soldiers/sailors/marines once one has successfully used the purple band-aid ticket home strategy.

    The possibilities are pretty much endless, and use of Allen’s alleged remarks pales next to countless stories played down or buried by the MSM wing of the Democrat party. If the Dems/MSM insist on applying a standard that permits publication of the Allen remarks, then there is no innuendo or allegation that is off limits in our political discourse. They should be careful what they wish for.

    TNugent (6128b4)

  16. I disagree that this is a “dishonest smear campaign that should be ignored”. Regardless of whether the smear campaign is dishonest or not, it is doing damage to Allen’s national Presidential hopes. He may win reelection in Virginia, but he isn’t going to go any further than that.

    He now has multiple named sources coming out against him, which makes me more uneasy. Also, he has done a HORRIBLE job at defending himself against previous attacks, which either means he is guilty, or he is horrible at defending himself. Neither option is very attractive.

    B. Minich (54baf2)

  17. I confess to something I’ll bet 95% of you did too. While drunk in the Navy on Liberty in Yokosuka I called somebody from another ship, a guy I was about to fight, a nigger. I’ve also used the term from time to time, both in conversation and in confrontation. I have also used the word “faggot” when I wanted to piss somebody off (in fact I called a prof that to his face once), since I am part Jewish I didn’t use the word “kike” but I’m sure I would have were I of some other pursuation. I’ve called girls and women cunts, bitches, and sluts. And so on And so on.

    I think we should have a rule as every candidate declares for anything: he/she must start it off with a string of racial and sexual bad words so we can get this shit off the table.

    Howard Veit (28df94)

  18. Whether it’s honest or dishonest isn’t really all that important. There are reasons why long-past events are given less weight than more recent ones, event to the point of disregarding them. Remarks from so long ago, if reported contemporaneously in the proper context, might tend to prove Allen’s attitudes on race at that time, but if nothing more recent is brought forward, it’s merely inflammatory without significant relevant probative value when reported today. This isn’t a court case, but similar principles should be applied by responsible journalists (and they used to be). The older the alleged “quote” the more difficult it is for someone like Allen to rebut his accuser’s version, because the accusation is presented as a circumstance that generally disqualifies him from providing reliable testimony. Add that to the tendency of many in the public to dismiss as a self-interested lie any defense he may offer. There is no presumption of innocence to protect his reputation. So, when the record is a couple of decades old, without evidence of a pattern that continues into the present or at least the recent past, it shouldn’t be considered fair game, particularly if the record consists only of another person’s recollection of remarks not intended for publication. The macaca remark falls short as a circumstance that might justify inquiry into private conversations of 20 or so years ago, but should stand on its own.

    TNugent (58efde)

  19. This doesn’t look good, and worse yet it’s the sucker punch – they led with that garbage Salon piece yesterday, which was bogus on its face, and then came back with better stuff. But Allen has a fine record as a Governor and Senator, and I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment. Let’s not throw a good Republican overboard just yet.

    Crank (3fed2a)

  20. it isn’t that he used a racial slur. that’s a word you hear sometimes among white people who aren’t ultraliberals.
    it’s that he’s a fraud. how does a palos verdes son of privilege morph into a good ol’ southern confederate boy? what kind of man would paint over his jewish heritage as if it were graffiti, then show us a judeophobic meltdown when queried about it? he’s just an empty suit with no integrity or anything else inside. you see this in politics from time to time, remember michael huffington?
    he is well and truly hosed, and i enjoyed every minute of it. who else can we take down in the 42 days remaining before the election?

    assistant devil's advocate (15d1b3)

  21. “who else can we take down in the 42 days remaining before the election? “
    Isn’t that just like a Democrat? Not ‘who is the best man for the job?’, not ‘Who can stand up to our high moral standard’ (like Clinton did….yeeesh).
    But rather ‘Who can we take down next.’
    Wow.

    paul from fl (464e99)

  22. thanks for joining us paul. wow yourself. i am utterly unashamed of my schadenfreude when bushbots immolate themselves.
    you share a name with the best man in washington:
    http://www.house.gov/paul

    assistant devil's advocate (15d1b3)

  23. ADA, I’m thinking in a logical progression, so unfortunately your comments come across like the village idiot babbling in the corner. Where might I find the biography on Senator Allen you referenced that I may determine the legitimacy of your remarks? Is it on the DNC home page?

    Did you read the follow-ups on the idiotic questions asked of his heritage? (Can you explain why a question on his heritage was even relevent to a debate on qualifications? Wait! I forgot. Race is a primary qualification for a Democrat.)

    If Senator Allen slept through Senate sessions or if he had been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, I think that would be reason to go after him. The idiotic attacks launched against him do nothing to address whether or not he is qualified to be a Senator, though as Ted Kennedy has proven, some states consider only birthright to be a qualification for the Senate.

    Steve (649c9f)

  24. I’m very, very confused now.

    So, a bunch of named folks, not simply anonymous sources, come out with claims and charges that damage a sitting Senator, one with potential prospects for the future.

    They call into question his reputation (which, by dint of his own actions, are already in question, thanks to more than a few unfortunate photo ops). They raise questions about his character. They suggest that he has slandered an entire group of people, in ways that today are outrageous (but perhaps weren’t so much when they were uttered).

    And we’re told that this has sunk the Senator in question from pursuing higher office.

    Exactly why is it that Senator Kerry is dead in the water?

    Lurking Observer (ea88e8)

  25. his confederate flag and noose

    What are you talking about?

    Gerald A (add20f)

  26. What are you talking about?

    He used to keep a noose in his office. And he likes the confederate flag. You know, because of the heritage a privilege suburban CA boy feels.

    actus (10527e)

  27. Just curious…
    How many identified sources without agendas are willing to testify for the charges?

    bains (473fa5)

  28. “He used to keep a noose in his office. And he likes the confederate flag. You know, because of the heritage a privilege suburban CA boy feels.”

    I guess no one remembered it until now.

    sharon (dfeb10)

  29. I guess no one remembered it until now.

    Nows the best time to keep a racist out of our government.

    actus (10527e)

  30. Nows the best time to keep a racist out of our government.

    Comment by actus — 9/26/2006 @ 5:08 pm

    Okay, Actus, where do we sign the petition on getting rid of Senator Byrd?

    Steve (7d7719)

  31. Okay, Actus, where do we sign the petition on getting rid of Senator Byrd

    I’d say during his next election cycle would be good. Apparently people are questioning the timing now in this cycle — so its an opportune moment. Just make your case to the people of West virginia. I’m sure they’re modern, tolerant folks, able to weigh the plusses and minuses that Senator Byrd brings with him.

    actus (10527e)

  32. See the update. Things seem murkier now than they did yesterday.

    Patterico (de0616)

  33. He used to keep a noose in his office.

    What are we supposed to conclude from that?

    And he likes the confederate flag.

    What exactly does that mean? Does he fly it on his porch?

    Gerald A (2728c7)

  34. And he likes the confederate flag. You know, because of the heritage a privilege suburban CA boy feels.”

    I feel for all the well-educated suburban kids wearing Che t-shirts these days. They’ve got no chance at a political future.

    MayBee (8aec89)

  35. What are we supposed to conclude from that?

    That he likes nooses. You know their history in the South? You know what that symbolizes? Allen says law and order. But together with the confederate flag, it symbolizes terrorism.

    They’ve got no chance at a political future.

    Exactly.

    actus (10527e)

  36. Senator Allen denies the murky allegation asserted by the….Democrat contributor !
    Many other people who associated with the Senator during that time period have stepped up to say they never heard him say anything like what was alleged.

    Even so, making a racial remark in a private conversation 35 years ago does not make one a ‘racist.’

    There are very few adults whose private conversations would not eliminate them from contention for public office.

    The lefty commenters aren’t animated by racial remarks directed toward Condi Rice, Ken Blackwell, Michael Steele, Clarence Thomas, or black people in general as the blackface caricature of Joe Lieberman by a Lamont supporter sought to do.

    How about Robert Byrd, former recruiter for the KKK, who is also running for re-election ?

    The lefties were animated about Trent Lott’s homage to Strom Thurmond, but did any of those same lefties ever say anything about Bill Clinton’s eulogy of the late Arkansas Senator William Fulbright, one of the more famous mid-century segregationists and Jew-haters ?

    Of course not.

    We all know this is merely a partisan outrage intended for maximum impact prior to an important election, and a (D) and an (R) is the true line of delineation, rather than the color bar.

    Desert Rat (ee9fe2)

  37. What utter unadulterated bullcrap.

    Allen has served as governor for four years, senator for six, for the Commonwealth of Virginia. In all that time, these allegations never, ever came up.

    And so, what is the approach of the Webb campaign? Issues? Nope. Voting record? Negatory. Possible usage of the N-bomb more than 30 years ago? Ah, there’s the ticket!

    I can just see it now. Fast forward to next week’s news conference:

    Blond ditz from W*USA: “Senator Allen, have you stopped using the n-word? If so, when exactly did you stop using it?”

    I’m sure the Webb campaign is, at this very moment, going through the Allen family’s veterinary records to discover whether or not he ever kicked his cat.

    JD (044292)

  38. i looked at the update and i still think senator deerhead is toast. all you need is one graphic image persisting for several days to down somebody now, and two big brown deer eyes peering out of your mailbox is pretty graphic (i’m assuming the senator shoved it in neck-first). the credibility of allegations is always weighed in context, and senator deerhead has already generously given us confederate flag+noose+macaca as well as lies “i just made up the word ‘macaca’, i did **not** learn it from my mother who used it growing up in tunisia, who swore me to silence anyway!”

    assistant devil's advocate (a639d0)

  39. Even so, making a racial remark in a private conversation 35 years ago does not make one a ‘racist.’

    No. there’s other things. Supporting the confederate flag but opposing MLK’s b-day. Having a noose in your office and picking on the one brown person and giving them a foreign sounding nickname.

    There are very few adults whose private conversations would not eliminate them from contention for public office.

    Agreed. We should focus on his public behavior.

    actus (10527e)

  40. That he likes nooses.

    But together with the confederate flag, it symbolizes terrorism.

    That’s your claim.

    What exactly is his confederate flag connection?

    Gerald A (bdfba2)

  41. Actus, let’s get back to the kids in the Che T-shirts. Are you now saying people don’t grow up? So, whatever they do at 20 overrides a life of service? Unless Allen was doing the things you allege in the last 5 years it doesn’t matter. LOTS of people were against the MLK holiday and many (like the stock exchanges) didn’t honor it for years. Are the stock exchanges racist now?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  42. re you now saying people don’t grow up?

    You’re right. People can grow up. Allen grew up into a guy that hangs out with white supremacists, opposes MLK’s b-day, supports the confederate flag, and has a noose in his office.

    Are the stock exchanges racist now?

    You’re smarter than this. It’s not just MLK. It’s MLK plus other things which narrows down the explanation for why be against MLK.

    actus (10527e)

  43. Allen grew up into a guy that hangs out with white supremacists

    been visiting Kos, have you? Or maybe FDL? Show me something that indicates Allen hangs out with white supremacists, other than that handshake shot.

    They’ve got no chance at a political future.
    Exactly.

    Well, that’s a darn shame. What other kinds of accessories or behavior might disqualify someone from a political future? A Chairman Mao watch? A copy of Mao’s Little Red Book? Anti-war demonstrations with Answer? Bob Marley posters (drugs! drugs!)? How about dorm-room posters objectifying women?
    I want to protect my teenagers from making a terrible life-altering accessory error!

    MayBee (8aec89)

  44. Show me something that indicates Allen hangs out with white supremacists, other than that handshake shot.

    Thats the one i’m talking about.

    I want to protect my teenagers from making a terrible life-altering accessory error!

    Welcome to the campaign of tomorrow. It might not even be safe for them to windsurf. Definately not with a racist symbol.

    actus (10527e)

  45. Thats the one i’m talking about.

    pretty thin gruel, actus. That doesn’t qualify as hanging out. I’m surprised at you.

    Welcome to the campaign of tomorrow. It might not even be safe for them to windsurf. Definately not with a racist symbol.

    Well, I guess its too late for my kids. One was assigned to be a Confederate soldier during his elementary school’s Civil War study/reenactment. There are pictures. The campaign of the future can use them to mean whatever they want. Yay future!

    MayBee (8aec89)

  46. That doesn’t qualify as hanging out

    Fine by me. But the photo is enough for me to chalk him up as mofo.

    One was assigned to be a Confederate soldier during his elementary school’s Civil War study/reenactment. There are pictures

    You better hope Rove’s kid wasn’t there.

    actus (10527e)

  47. That doesn’t qualify as hanging out

    Fine by me. But the photo is enough for me to chalk him up as mofo.

    Hilarious. Now Pols need to do background checks on American citizens before they take a snapshot. Because being photographed with the wrong guy might make them a mofo. I’m lovin’ this!

    One was assigned to be a Confederate soldier during his elementary school’s Civil War study/reenactment. There are pictures

    You better hope Rove’s kid wasn’t there.

    So…Rove is behind this Allen stuff?

    MayBee (8aec89)

  48. Now Pols need to do background checks on American citizens before they take a snapshot

    Oh. So Allen thought it was just a random bunch of white guys? Thats weak. We know who the CCC is. So does Allen. They’re bad people.

    So…Rove is behind this Allen stuff?

    You’ve been misunderstanding for a while now. So I’ll just humor this one.

    actus (10527e)

  49. Allen grew up into a guy that hangs out with white supremacists

    Now y’all are blaming Allen because he happens to be serving in the Senate with Robert Byrd?

    Give a brotha a break, yo…

    JD (044292)

  50. Now y’all are blaming Allen because he happens to be serving in the Senate with Robert Byrd?

    Allen could solve his problems by moving to West VA. Those are good american heartland folk. They have values, right?

    actus (10527e)

  51. “You’re smarter than this. It’s not just MLK. It’s MLK plus other things which narrows down the explanation for why be against MLK.”

    How many “other things”? One? Two?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  52. How many “other things”? One? Two?

    A couple big ones. Enough so that, while a stock exchange might be able to say that the markets need to run, someone else might not have access to that explanation. Because of other things we know about them. You know, like supporting terrorist nooses. And the confederate flag. And the white supremacists.

    Stock exchanges don’t do that.

    actus (10527e)

  53. How does one support a terrorist noose?
    Do you think any politician really wants to play the “who is in this picture?” game? I don’t.
    But yeah, list three things in a row and it suddenly looks like they are related.

    MayBee (c5700f)

  54. How does one support a terrorist noose?

    By having one on display in their office.

    But yeah, list three things in a row and it suddenly looks like they are related.

    They do share one thing in common: we should be talking about race with macaca. Something more than his ‘ethnic rally’

    actus (10527e)

  55. Ok, next question: What is a terrorist noose? How do you know the noose in his office is a terrorist?

    What do you mean about talking about race with macaca?

    MayBee (c5700f)

  56. Sorry actus. I forgot this 🙂 after the second question.
    But I am serious. Why the assumption that the noose is something racist or about terrorism?

    MayBee (c5700f)

  57. “A couple big ones.”

    Who determines what “a couple big ones” (sic) are?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  58. Why the assumption that the noose is something racist or about terrorism?

    Everybody knows no noose has ever been used by a non-racist or a non-terrorist, ‘cuz the death penalty is racist. Didn’t ya get the memo?

    Xrlq (f52b4f)

  59. Why the assumption that the noose is something racist or about terrorism?

    It’s a conclusion. Not an assumption. It’s based on the fact a noose, in a tree, in VA, to someone that hangs out with white supremacists, likes the confederate flag, and is against MLK’s b-day is about lynching. Ie, terrorism.

    actus (10527e)

  60. Who determines what “a couple big ones” (sic) are?

    They’re big to me. You might not mind being on the side of terrorists.

    actus (10527e)


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