See Dubya explains why it makes little sense that we would ship a guy to Syria to be interrogated and tortured. Bottom line: why would we trust Syria to accurately relay the results of the interrogation? I think the conclusion that the guy was simply deported is the obvious one.
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Yes.
1. Can anyone confirm the assumption that he had dual Canadian and Syrian citizenship at the time? In the Taranto/Guantanamo thread we speculated that he was traveling on a Syrian passport.
2. Am I the only one who remembers the KGB’s use of “disinformation” during the Cold War? What evidence do we have that he is not reading from a script prepared for him by the Syrian government?
nk (956ea1) — 9/21/2006 @ 8:07 amI admit, right away, that my second question above is farfetched. Even I doubt that the Syrians would be so cynical or so subtle that they would accuse themselves of torture to make us look bad.
nk (956ea1) — 9/21/2006 @ 8:16 amI don’t think it’s that far-fetched. Accusing themselves of torturing suspected terrorists handed over to them by the U.S. simultaneously makes us look bad, and Syria look good.
Xrlq (f52b4f) — 9/21/2006 @ 9:11 amThanks, Xrlq. My afterthought was that such disinformation would also upset their pet terrorists, such as Hetzbollah and the PLO, but my after-afterthought now is that Hetzbollah and the PLO are themselves masters of victimization propaganda and so would understand what was going on. Hmmm ….
nk (2e1372) — 9/21/2006 @ 10:54 amShorter Patterico:
Deny, deny, deny.
Kimmitt (80218d) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:32 amPatterico: I don’t think we sent him to Syria intending that the Syrian government torture him.
That doesn’t change my opinion that choosing to send him to Syria instead of to Canada — when we knew he had Canadian citizenship — was wrong.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:56 amShorter Kimmitt:
Fuck you for trying to keep Americans safe.
nk (4d4a9d) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:57 amapharael, Comment # 6:
Sincerely: My opinion will change if “we knew he had Canadian citizenship”. Can you help with evidence?
nk (4d4a9d) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:59 amSlightly Longer Kimmitt: when in doubt, just make crap up.
Xrlq (f52b4f) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:06 pmNK: the summary of the report of the Arar Commission says “It is very likely that, in making the decisions to detain and remove Mr. Arar to Syria, the US authorities relied on information about Mr. Arar provided by the RCMP.”
I find it implausible that the US could have consulted with the RCMP about Arar without the fact that he is a Canadian citizen coming up. (I also find it implausible that anyone carrying a Syrian and a Canadian passport would present a Syrian passport on entry into the United States … but it’s possible Arar is unusually dumb).
Since the Commission’s report has been embargoed until it is tabled in the House of Commons, I can’t look in the report right now and say what it says the RCMP told the US. Until then, I can’t provide evidence, merely marginally informed speculation.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:07 pmMore Kimmitt: I’m just here to crap on your blog!
Pablo (efa871) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:15 pmThis is obviously not a definitive source, but maherarer.ca makes the following statement in its timeline of events:
Certainly it is the case that Arar is *alleging* that the US knew he was a Canadian citizen. The allegation seems plausible to me, particularly if he’d been searched at this point; unless he was not carrying his Canadian passport, it would have been found. (And were he not carrying his Canadian passport, he couldn’t have used it to enter Canada).
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:15 pmWe do know that the RCMP told us he was an al-Qaeda suspect, don’t we? I thought the Commission revealed that they did do that and that it was a mistake.
Pablo (efa871) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:18 pm“… he is a native of Syria and is a citizen of Syria and Canada ….”
He wins in my courtroom. We should have deported him to the civilized country of citizenship.
nk (35ba30) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:41 pmP.S. If proven.
nk (35ba30) — 9/21/2006 @ 12:43 pmPablo: it’s not clear from the executive summary of the Commission’s report and, as I said, the full report is currently unavailable.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 9/21/2006 @ 1:10 pmAphrael, nk–what if canada didn’t want him?
Which they obviously didn’t?
See Dubya (985614) — 9/21/2006 @ 1:36 pmSee Dubya – is it clear that they didn’t? He was a citizen of Canada. If they refused to accept the transfer, they’ve almost certainly violated Canadian law.
But my understanding of the case is not that they refused to accept the transfer; it’s that they were never asked.
aphrael (e7c761) — 9/21/2006 @ 1:44 pmI think we canuckis were in effect asked if we wanted him. Some mountie corporal then gave a broad and unauthorized hint that no we don’t, even though we had no evidence against him.
That’s disturbing. Two coppers, one of yours and one of ours, winking and nodding. Say no more, say no more, only it wasn’t funny.
There seems to be something odd or off about Arar. Maybe he is tied to terrorism. But we still have no evidence, much less proof.
BlacquesJacquesShellacques (83acf5) — 9/21/2006 @ 5:51 pmBlackqueJacquesShellacques: if your characterization turns out to be true, then I hope (a) the mountie in question is fired, and (b) there’s a serious investigation of his superiors to find out why something like this was allowed on their watch.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 9/21/2006 @ 6:26 pmWhy would we need them to?
Except that his deportation wasn’t “simple.”
Do people actually think that Arar was not tortured, did not suffer what he said he did?
actus (10527e) — 9/21/2006 @ 7:01 pmTime to clean up another fact-free mess, I suppose.
As to the Canada angle, The NYT spelled it out:
“The Canadian police “had no idea of what would eventually transpire,’’ the commission said. “It did not occur to them that the American authorities were contemplating sending Mr. Arar to Syria.”
“While the F.B.I. and the Mounted Police kept up their communications about Mr. Arar, Canada’s Department of Foreign Affairs was not told about his detention for almost three days. Its officials, acting on calls from worried relatives, had been trying to find him. Similarly, American officials denied Mr. Arar’s requests to speak with the Canadian Consulate in New York, a violation of international agreements.
“Evidence presented to the commission, said Paul J. J. Cavalluzzo, its lead counsel, showed that the F.B.I. continued to keep its Canadian counterparts in the dark even while an American jet was carrying Mr. Arar to Jordan. The panel found that American officials “believed — quite correctly — that, if informed, the Canadians would have serious concerns about the plan to remove Mr. Arar to Syria.”
Macswain (2aadc0) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:04 pmHere’s the Times link.
As to the Arar matter being a simple deportation, its clear Pat has now clue how the deportation system works in this country (but apparently ignorance is not a barrier to his pontificating).
Simply put … the acting attorney general does not personally issue extraordinary orders in simple deportations as was done with Arar.
Here’s The WP gave the backdrop on this year’s ago:
“A senior Justice Department official personally approved sending a Syrian-born Canadian citizen suspected of terrorist links to Syria last year after consulting with CIA officials, according to U.S. officials.
“Then-Deputy Attorney General Larry D. Thompson, in his capacity as acting attorney general, signed the highly unusual order, citing national security and declaring that to send the man, Maher Arar, home to Canada would be “prejudicial to the interests of the United States,” according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.”
As to Pat’s idiotic title to this post (which sadly reflects the mind of one who sees only absolutes), the WP piece contains this nugget:
“Imad Moustafa, the charge d’affaires at the Syrian Embassy in Washington, has denied Arar was tortured. But he said Syria had no reason to imprison Arar. He said U.S. intelligence officials told their Syrian counterparts that Arar was an al Qaeda member. Syria agreed to take him as a favor and to win goodwill of the United States, he said. ”
A man of good conscience might now think of correcting such a lazy and misguided post.
Macswain (2aadc0) — 9/21/2006 @ 11:17 pmactus
Actually, it was.
McBain! (64bbd9) — 9/22/2006 @ 3:06 pmThis seems to indicate a deportation.
McBain! (64bbd9) — 9/22/2006 @ 3:08 pmBut is there causality here?
McBain! (64bbd9) — 9/22/2006 @ 3:09 pmMcBain,
I actually did a second comment last night dispatching with the “simple deportation” tomfoolery. That comment was purportedly held up by Pat’s spam filter and was supposedly awaiting approval from the host.
Let’s see if Pat let’s that comment post up. You should find it quite enlightening.
Macswain (76d8da) — 9/22/2006 @ 4:52 pmThis is the first I’ve heard of that comment. I’ve put it up.
Patterico (de0616) — 9/22/2006 @ 5:22 pmIncluding a flight to amman and men in a car to drive him to syria without telling canada who we thought would object? And without a judge or lawyer? Weird. Not simple.
What?
actus (10527e) — 9/22/2006 @ 6:20 pmLeftists dont think we have any enemies but conservative christains who oppose the NEW WORLD ORDER,REVIONIST HISTORY,SEX EDUCATION,EVOLUTION,THE NEW AGE ENVIROMENTALISTS BRAINWASHING and the NORTH AMERICAN UNION
krazy kagu (31c771) — 9/22/2006 @ 6:59 pm