Patterico's Pontifications

9/17/2006

Pope Criticizes Islam’s Violence; Islam Reacts Violently

Filed under: General,Terrorism — Patterico @ 12:06 am



So the other day, the Pope criticized violent conversion to Islam (not that such a thing would ever happen — right, Steve Centanni?) and said: “Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.”

Islamists set him straight right away:

Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza on Saturday, following remarks by Pope Benedict that angered many Muslims.

And a Somali cleric called for the Pope’s death:

We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion,” [Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin] said in Friday evening prayers.

Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim,” Malin, a prominent cleric in the Somali capital, told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.

I’m not sure if they’re upset that the Pope called Islam violent, or that he said violence is incompatible with the spirit of God. Or both.

To illustrate that point, Allah points us to the story of a woman attacked and killed by Hamas thugs for her crime of picnicking with her boyfriend. Not to worry: justice was done. True, “the killers were related to a powerful Gaza clan and were soon released.” But they paid the family a few thousand Jordanian dinars, so all is well. The incident hasn’t caused her dad to remove his treasured pictures of Hamas martyrs:

Sitting beneath a portrait of his dead daughter on the wall, Mr al-Azzam [the murdered girl’s father] kept murmuring “it is the will of Allah” as he chose his words carefully, eager not to cause offence to any of the parties.

Also prominent on the wall were portraits of the assassinated Hamas leaders Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi.

As Allahpundit says of this story and the Pope Benedict story: “It sounds unrelated but it isn’t.” Indeed.

P.S. I am aware of the potential charge that I am overgeneralizing by including the phrase “Islam Reacts Violently” in the post title. And indeed, I don’t mean to be saying all of Islam is reacting violently; I personally know some Muslims who would unquestionably criticize such threats and violence. But if there are prominent clerics out there who are criticizing the violent response to the Pope’s remarks, I’d like to know who they are — because we haven’t read much about them in the past day or two.

UPDATE: Dafydd ab Hugh has an exclusive report on Islamic groups’ denunciation of the recent violence and threats surrounding the Pope’s remarks. It’s worth reading. Trust me.

UPDATE x2: A nun is shot in the back and killed, further refuting Benedict’s point about Islam’s connections to violence.

70 Responses to “Pope Criticizes Islam’s Violence; Islam Reacts Violently”

  1. Michelle Malkin posted this back in March.

    “The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings. What we see today is not a clash of civilizations. Civilizations do not clash, but compete.”

    There’s more that’s worth reading at the link above.

    nk (57e995)

  2. Welcome to Islam, the irony-free religion.

    dchamil (9afd8c)

  3. And now, in a hospital in Mogadishu (the newest Islamic paradise), an Italian nun/nurse has been shot to death. Shot in the back, that is.

    That’s right. A nun. A nurse. Shot in the back 3 times. While at work, in a children’s hospital.

    A high-level Islamist source told Reuters the attack may well be linked to the controversy over Pope Benedict’s recent remarks about holy wars, which have been taken by many Muslims as an attempt to portray their religion as innately violent.

    And…???

    “SOS hospital is assisted by the Catholic Church and the slain aid worker was a nun,” the source said. “There is a very high possibility the people who killed her were angered by the Catholic Pope’s recent comments against Islam.”

    Which is the religion of peace? The one with the nurses or the one with the gunmen?

    What’s so peaceful about Islam?

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  4. Patterico:

    A couple of posts on this subject from a blog I rarely read, and which even more rarely has something worth reading:

    Ddyfad

    (Sock puppet of guess who)

    Dafydd (6e94cd)

  5. You are going to hurt the Islamites’ feelings with this talk of anger, hurt, pain, and death.

    Their religion of peace cannot bear being thought of as evil or murderous, and they frankly may need to kill you to enforce their views.

    Now be a good dhimmi and apologize.

    steve miller (8f3338)

  6. btw, love the “irony-free religion” meme.

    steve miller (8f3338)

  7. I, too find the “irony free religion” comment to be not only funny, but obvious. But let us keep things in perspective. There are three religions in the world that claim a vast majority of humanity as their subjects (and yes, I chose that word wisely). So we’ve got several billion people who believe their god is better than yours. All three have major faults, but all three can help people to get through their lives in a moral, decent way. I am a spiritual individual but find all organized religions to be corrupt, morally bankrupt and devoid of any real direction (I will admit Islam is at the top of my list, but they’re all accountable). Is there a way to reconcile and teach, or are we bound by fate to continue this path?

    mmm...lemonheads (a9d53b)

  8. How about if we all submit to your superior wisdom? But first, what is it that you find so distressing about Buddhism?

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  9. pagans of good conscience detest islam and christianity equally. these are the aggressive, usurper religions, not content with enlightening their own members, bent on converting nonbelievers and spreading to the far ends of the earth.
    “members only” religions such as buddhism and judaism aren’t as bad. they won’t try to convert me and i won’t try to convert them.
    islam is the enemy of my country. it isn’t “terror”, that’s just a convenient construct for perpetual, profitable warfare. a war on “terror” is like a war on earthquakes or santa ana winds.
    mecca is the capital of our enemy, where we should take the action first. the people who regard mecca as more sacrosanct and inviolable than new york and criticized my proposal to attack it recently are either fools or tools. the jihad is already underway, let’s do what we can to make sure the right side wins.

    assistant devil's advocate (a496c0)

  10. And yet what do we have on the talk shows today? John McCain, whining about world opinion, alerting the terrorists that he “fears for the treatment of our men and women in the military” if we don’t pass his bill (and elect him president). I give it a week before they kidnap and torture a soldier.

    I salute the Pope for having the guts to speak out against the real barbarians.

    Patricia (2cc180)

  11. these countries have representation in the UN.
    and people wonder why the UN is so disfunctional.

    Also, the “palestenians” didn’t attach a Catholic church but an Anglican. and Isreael is supposed to peacefully co-exist with these people.

    seePea (5699f3)

  12. Thank you, mmm…lemonheads, for recycling a favorite line that is so often used by those who criticize religion: “I am a spiritual individual but find all organized religions to be corrupt, morally bankrupt and devoid of any real direction.” What utter nonsense. It’s a lot like saying “I’m very athletic, but I find all methods of exercising to be too competitive, self-absorbed, and injury-prone.” Enough of all this “a pox on all your houses” mentality and let’s start hearing how you plan to put your “spirituality” into practice.

    JVW (d667c9)

  13. They might as well go back to swining clubs and wearing animal hides becuase they have not progressed much still a race of primative savages

    krazy kagu (5006b4)

  14. Anyone care to guess just which atrocity will occur over the next week or so which will push a bunch of heavily armed, extremely pissed-off non-muslims to look up and say “OK, screw it – last straw. It is now officially open season on these barbarians…and no bag limit”

    Bob (8cebc9)

  15. Shorter Patterico: We should judge Islam by its fundamentalists and Christianity by its mainstream adherents.

    Shorter Patterico’s commenters: We are bigots.

    [Shorter Kimmitt: I am illiterate and didn’t read the post, which says *all* of Islam is not reacting violently. I am also unable to provide examples of Muslim spiritual leaders criticizing this violence. — P]

    Kimmitt (80218d)

  16. Sheer (or should we say Scheer) claptrap, Kimmitt. If you can’t see the difference between fundamentalists who annoys people by working to gain electoral power and fundamentalists who annoy people by, you know, trying to kill them, then there is no hope for you anyway.

    JVW (d667c9)

  17. Kimmit and others like him are just snobs doing the secular version of the ol’ holier-than-thou shtick. Adolescent egos aren’t just for adolescents, y’know.

    Choose your enemy wisely, for it is he whom you will most come to resemble.

    ras (a646fc)

  18. “Palestinians wielding guns and firebombs attacked five churches in the West Bank and Gaza on Saturday…”

    Among the churches attacked were an Anglican church and an Orthodox church. Neither church recognizes the Pope’s authority.

    This is violence for the sake of violence.

    patch (457301)

  19. Leading governnment officials and clerics in Islamic countries have come out with threats agaanst the Pope.

    We can now stop saying that there is a fringe of Islam causing problems.

    davod (5fdaa2)

  20. Ps.

    Stop saying Islamists, unless you mean those in the parliaments of Pakistan and Indonesia.

    davod (5fdaa2)

  21. Shorter Kimmit: With my head up my ass, everything I see looks like sh*t.

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  22. This is violence for the sake of violence.

    It almost looks as if most of Islam is *looking* for an excuse to employ violence as intimidation, doesn’t it?

    ras (a646fc)

  23. Islamists should realize, that all of that compelling people with the sword, by force and intimidation, to convert, and bow their foreheads to the floor in “submission” five times a day does, is to waft the fragance of many unwashed arses in the wind!

    Just think what an odorous “incense” to God must be wafting out of all the Mosques up to heaven!!!

    Althor 😀

    Althor (d8da01)

  24. Not all Muslims are automatons indoctrinated to hate unreasoningly, and immolate themselves at the whim of a Mullah in order to kill innocent bystanders for the sake of their satanic religion.

    Some Muslims, who call themselves “The Apostates of Islam” have denounced the virulency and violence of Islam! This is what they had to say about the Prophet Mohammed:

    “One [Mohammed] who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people…He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their ‘right hand possessions’ (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia.”

    Wow! And that is just highlighting Mohammed’s good points, since as we all know, Muslims are forbidden, on pain of death, to speak ill of the Prophet!

    Imagine if they could have spoken freely of his “bad points”!!!

    LOL!

    Althor 😀

    Althor (d8da01)

  25. Stop defending yourself by feeling it necesssary to include the disclaimer that , of course, you do not blame all Muslims. It is sickening that only with this issue must such statements always be included. NO othe criricism of a religion, group, political party, or whatever requires it. If we all stopped doint this than perhaps it would be more likely that the Muslim community would come forward and fight this stuff.

    Florence Schmieg (02cb5b)

  26. Nun Murdered after Muslims Condemn Pope’s Remarks…

    A nun who had spent most of her life helping sick people was murdered today by Muslims retalliating for Pope Benedict’s remarks about the violent nature of Islam.
    An elderly Italian nun who devoted her life to helping the sick in Africa was shot…

    Outside The Beltway | OTB (30d6b6)

  27. “This is violence for the sake of violence.”

    And for the sake of intimidation of the West.

    That’s why the cameras always happen to be there and the signs are in English.

    Patricia (2cc180)

  28. I want to clarify something,please..& let me to have this space in your mind & your patince.:

    islam radicalists like “Bin Laden” shew up because of the policies led by islam country’s leaders to supress the leadership symbols & charecters in Muslim culture because they know well they are not the desired leaders by their communities according to Islam dogma.
    so radicalism in visions arose & some people like “Bin-Laden”mixed between his desires & his religion & made us”muslims” in this jam.

    I can tell you what is the Islam judgment for “binladen” & any civilian killer..
    it is to be killed or crossed or cut a leg & a hand on differrent sides or be jailed.
    & the leadership choose what is the accurate to do between these choices.

    About the wars in islam & the speech about islam spread by sword:
    Islamic wars were either a defence wars like most of those at the time of the prophet Mohammad..
    Or,for fighting leaders of a country bans his people from getting the Islam message
    Muslims at the later case..fights the army “& only the army(by strict orders from God & the prophet)”
    & then ask people to islam..if they agreed they are defenced by them & if not they pay fees for the defence & managment of country.
    SO..I can say “honestly & i swear” that there is no enforcement to enter Islam religion & i didn’t find any in my whole readings in Islam culture & if so..I would start doubt it & suspect the whole thing.

    remains two things:
    1)the nun’s killer in Islam judgment..he is to be killed as for killing a protected soul.

    2Hamas thing:in 1948 Israel established on a palastenian lands & killed the palastenian people there at “Deir yassein”..
    Palastenian including “Hamas” considre the whole Israeli land an invaded land “& i think they have their right because it is their land & their grandfather are those who were killed”
    They considre every Israeli person there is an invader in their land & hence they have the right to kick him off his own right.

    thats the whole thing..
    if I l was non Logic tell me..
    but if not,then you misjudged us”Muslims” & we do not deserve all that from you & from the pope.

    Wafa (64f60a)

  29. ps: I am educated at Azhar islamic schools & the judgments mentioned in my previous comment was based on eduction & awareness of Islam core.

    I swear to God..”our God..christians,jews & muslims”..that what I was honestly speaking
    & if there was some of what you say & many others..I would doubt about Islam & recalculate my whole direction.

    After all..I reached mentally that there is God & I search for what he wants me to do, with assidance that it wil be islam or christianity or judism

    Lets just ask from OUR God to guide us to truth & what He wants from us..if we really desire to.

    🙂

    best regards

    Mohammad Abul-wafa

    Wafa (64f60a)

  30. Sir:
    Ithink we shoud kill all muslims because they are muslims. How does this disagree with their religon?
    I really want someone to explain how this is
    irrational in context with their views.
    Don Bentley

    don bentley (a90377)

  31. It’s important to remember that when this so-called ‘religion of peace’ is not rioting in the streets and killing poor, little-old ladies they are absolutely horrible in the their treatment of women…women are property. Women are killed by their own families in honor killings. Women can’t vote in many countries. Women are stoned to death for sex outside of marriage. Women have their sexual organs mutilated to keep them faithful to their husbands. Women can’t travel outside the house alone….

    Where are the feminists through all of this? Why isn’t every freedom loving person screaming the truth about Islam. It is evil, oppressive and needs to be put down…..

    It drives me crazy that no one stands up for the victims of this monstrous religion…….

    Stacy (c6eef6)

  32. Now Stacy, how can you say such a thing? The lefties will accuse you of being; a facist, a neocon, insensitive, intolerant and/or all of the above. Apologize now, be a good dhimmi and submit or your poodle will be raped. Speaking the truth is not acceptable to islam.
    Sorry folks, I can no longer use the upper case “I” in referance to islam.

    Skul (d17970)

  33. In response to Don Bentley:
    Isn’t any view in life has its radicalists?
    They are not the islam core..by admittance of all Muslims..
    It is not contradict..it is radicalism in absence of general leadership “for the reason i mentioned above” & they are so so tiny in number compared to the Muslim population..you just hear about them because of their actions.

    In response yo Stacy :
    Who told you that???!!
    When you want to know “real madrid” team as he is..do not come to some one of “bacelona” fans to ask him about that..because he will say they are crap.
    The same here..:
    What you have just said, is said from other religionists seeking persuading people that Islam is not correct.

    If you want to know true information about Islam..know that from the Muslims..read about Islam from Muslims..because they are the only people who know it as it is.

    All of what you said is between a lie or a misunderstood information.I’ll not discuss because it is not its place here.

    But please..do read about Islam “from Islam” to know its real core.

    There information you have towards Islam is really comfortable to mind as it will not think alot..but the question is…IS it true?????

    How can you think that more than a billion thinking brains would accept that”if it is true” as a religion???????

    Wafa (9d24bd)

  34. Wafa, from Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry we hear:

    “Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence,”

    The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia tells us:

    “Everybody should know by now that all claims about religions’ reconciliation have just been proven to be lies in reality,” al-Sheik said. “How can they think of reconciliation while insulting Islam and the prophet?”

    Are these not Muslims we should listen to and learn from? Where is the peace in Islam?

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  35. Its not that surprising that people are taking issue with a post-enlightenment pope promoting pre-enlightenment christian thinking.

    actus (10527e)

  36. Wafa,

    You need to learn how to use Google. Just the other day a girl in Gaza was killed for picnicing with her boy friend. Look at how women are forced to dress. Ask a Saudi woman if she can get on a plane and freely leave the country.

    Speaking of Gaza, I was mad at Fox news when Israel gave it up to the crazies. Fox showed happy moslems froliking on the beach….but they didn’t mention that it was all men!

    Or think about this….if there is a celebration at the vatican, you’ll see men, women and children all together listening to the pope. Tell me wafa, what do you see in Mecca? Hmmmmm?

    Last year in Indonesia four christian school girls were murdered on their way home from school…their crime? Being christian….

    When was the last time a christian beheaded anybody?

    I’m just tired of the moral equivalence and PC talk that lets these things get by….

    BTW I am not religious at all, so I’m not defending Christianity because I’m a christian…but it seems to me that it is more the religion of peace…….

    Stacy (c6eef6)

  37. Actus:

    pre-enlightenment christian thinking.

    How would you define this?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  38. The Religion of Peace? Not So Much……

    So the muslims are pissed and outraged at the Pope for suggesting that Islam is a bit violent. The Pope said, “Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.” What did many (but certainly not all) of ……

    The Queen of All Evil (f03b36)

  39. There are two kinds of Muslims in the world, the first one are the fanatical, barbaric, murderous savages that blow up innocent men, women, and children in the name of Allah, and behead people; the other are the Muslims apologizing for them and their religion of violence and hate!!!

    Isn’t time the “apologists” stop rationalizing the indefensible?!?!

    Althor

    Althor (d8da01)

  40. Stacy:there is a difference in orders requested from man & woman in Islam..but there is some philosophy behind..& it persuaded Muslims..including women.
    You heared what you said about Islam..did you hear about major objections & rages from women in Islam..so there must be something behind that..
    belive me..or no “do not belive”..but listen to the story from muslim side to know the psychological implications.
    this is my only request.

    I add my voice to yours in denying killing..but i previously mentioned why this ectopic behavior arose..
    you know, there is a place at the hear called SA node rhythming the beats..when this node stops or became weak every part of the heart muscle starts beating with no synchronization..& thats what is happening in muslim community..they supressed the leadership the islam ordered it to be..so what we see now is the result..

    i am not defending muslims..I am defending the islam essence because I see that it deserves my tries..
    I can understand your vision & I do appreciate your person..at least you are not one of those who keep on mocking & insulting..

    thanks for caring to reply

    best regards..

    Wafa

    Wafa (af138e)

  41. This pope may have to apologise for a lot more than offending islam. The first new interpretation for two thousand years, of the moral teachings of Jesus the Christ, has recently been posted on the web. And it asks some awfully big questions about existing ‘christian’ tradition? Check these links: http://www.energon.uklinux.net
    http://thefinalfreedoms.bulldoghome.com

    Robert Landbeck (2c0ba2)

  42. I pretty much read everything posted in the comments here and I may be wrong but I haven’t read anything about, oh, The Inquisition or any number of other little Jihads initiated against every heathen unbeliever who didn’t bow down to Jesus H Christ or the Pope or the Catholic Church, etc., et.c.., et., c,.,. ever since you miserable Christians tried to shove your religion down other people’s throats with a gunstock or an axe handle.

    I don’t want to incur the wrath of all the right-wing nuts in here or any Muslims or The PoOP, but you really shouldn’t be so surprised that somebody gets a little touchy about their religion. You assholes get pretty touchy yourselves, remember?

    I’m just sayin’…

    bloodstomper (97ee5b)

  43. bloodstomper, welcome to the 21st Century. You are are perfectly safe from Christianity, Judaism and probably Buddhists, Sikhs, Bahais, etc… You might want to be careful around the Muslims though. They seem a bit touchy.

    Where do you see Christians stuffing anything down anyone’s throat?

    You can be a heathen unbelievber, but you need not be an asshole.

    Pablo (efa871)

  44. Riehl World View, reports on a demonstration that took place at Wesminster in London on Sunday, where those attending services were met with a crowd of these “Peace Loving” Muslims, holding signs that read “Jesus is a slave of Allah”, “Pope go to Hell” and other insults, threatening to burn all Churches in Gaza! Dan Rhiel has the story and the pictures:

    http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/09/islamofascists_.html#comment-22555161

    for more of the pictures straight from London go to:

    http://catholiclondoner.blogspot.com/2006/09/very-rushed-post.html

    Now, Jules Crittenden, of the Boston Herald, had this to say about all the turmoil caused by the Pope’s quote of the comments by a Byzantinian Emperor:

    “We are not dealing with modern democracies forged by centuries of intellectual debate and violent struggle to establish individual rights. Islam’s period of progressive thought — isolated to a few centers of learning — ended about 800 years ago. What we are dealing with is a stunted society, still operating on a 14th-century paradigm.”

    He went on to blame the Holy Father adding, quote:

    “So when the pope hauls out the medieval rhetoric…you poke a stick into that.”

    Now, why is it alright for 10th century Islamist savages to belittle and insult my religion, provoking me at my place of worship, calling Jesus “a slave of Allah”, telling the Pope to “Go to Hell” and proclaiming that “We will blow up all of Gaza’s Churches”, and “Islam will conquer
    Rome”, and yet I should accept it in resignation, all because a learned scholar, the Pope, cannot even quote an ancient passage without strring these barbaric Islamists into unwarranted violence and mayhem?!?! It’s simply unequal, and unfair!!!

    I am sick and tired of the “Politically Correct” mentality of such as Mr. Crittenden that calls invalids “mobility impaired” and the mentally retarded
    “intelligence impaired” and criminals “morally impaired”, which insists now on calling these Muslim fanatical, suicide-bombing, murderers “Islamically Impaired” as if their affiliation to a retrograde, barbaric, 10th century, tribal religion of bloodshed and hatred was an excuse that gives them “carte blanche” for them to indulge in all their favorite past-times of hostility, violence, and bloodshed!!!

    Christians have the right to worship without fearing for their lives, or enduring the insults of these savages! How about if we all go protest at their Mosques in turn, and insult their son of a dog false Prophet for a change?!?! Oh no! That would be “incitement”! But when they are the ones hurling the insults it’s just “Freedom of Speech”!!!

    Appeasing Islamists, and condoning their behavior just to avoid more violence on their part is simply tantamount to being held hostage to perpetual blackmail by Islam!!!

    Indeed Crittenden has a point, we shouldn’t be “poking a stick”… but rather whacking them with it!!!

    Althor

    Althor (d8da01)

  45. Actus:

    pre-enlightenment christian thinking.

    How would you define this?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  46. How would you define this?

    The pope was quoting a 14th century text. Thats from before the enlightenment.

    actus (10527e)

  47. This link is to the text of the Pope’s address. It is, I think, a great read. It is learned, and elegant.

    http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474

    The part that is causing the fuss comes along thus:

    “I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on– perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara– by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.”….

    “But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels,” he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words:

    Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

    The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.”

    The truth does often hurt.

    RJN (e12f22)

  48. Actus:

    The pope was quoting a 14th century text. Thats from before the enlightenment.

    Polymer (6946e1)

  49. Actus:

    The pope was quoting a 14th century text. That’s from before the enlightenment.

    Polymer (6946e1)

  50. Actus:

    The pope was quoting a 14th century text. That’s from before the enlightenment.

    Chronologically this is true. So are you saying that chronology defines the thought and word to be enlightened?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  51. Wafa, thanks for the dialog….but bloodstomper I am so tired of hearing about the inquisition. But as Pablo sez…this is the 21st century!!! GET OVER THE INQUISITION!!!! Jesus H Christ!!! The last pope apologized…you can’t change the past, only the here and now and the future…islam is the only psychotic cult out there right now killing women, killing gays, killing christians…WAKEUP!!!! I myself am an atheist…I get my ethics and morals from my own ability to reason and know right from wrong…but I know that christianity has been responsible for more charity in the world than any moslem ever has…..

    Stacy (c6eef6)

  52. Chronologically this is true. So are you saying that chronology defines the thought and word to be enlightened?

    I think that things from before the enlightenment are pre-enlightenment. And the church wasn’t too cool back then. Eppur si muove!

    actus (10527e)

  53. Actus, I wish you were as smart as your Liberal brethren:

    Smart Liberal Who Isn’t as Obtuse as a Dildo

    Christoph (9824e6)

  54. Often times, things are not what they appear. Is this the case with your quote? And what does it modify?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  55. It was pre-rayon too. I think that things which were before rayon are pre-rayon. And clothes were not too drip-dry then. Actus’s talent in citing irrelevancies is seconded only by his ability to find people who take his drivel seriously (at first).

    nk (956ea1)

  56. Is this the case with your quote?

    I have no idea.

    actus (10527e)

  57. You have no idea about the words you wrote in your post?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  58. Will Democrats Ever Drop Their Political Blinders and Realize the Imminent Danger That Surrounds Us?!?!

    Topics: Islam And The War On Terror:
    (http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/09/will_democrats.php)

    Democrats get all feisty when anyone questions their “patriotism,” yet the positions they have consistently taken, mostly for no other reason than for sheer, petty, political, opposition to anything Bush, whom they hate and despise vehemently, and or the Administration does, do in fact endanger our national security, and aid the terrorists! With their positions on everything from Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid bragging in front of the cameras of having killed the “Patriot Act,” to the NSA Surveillance Program controversy, to the present debacle in Congress over coercive interrogation, to the insistence on pulling immediately from Iraq, they have in fact aided, and abetted the plans of Al Qaeda and the Islamist enemy, who are precisely counting on their “naivete” and “fickleness” to advance their objectives of a worldwide Jihad and the establishment of the Caliphate!!!

    In the face of the escalating Jihadist violence all over the world, naive, out of touch, cut-and-run Democrats, ought to read what was published by AP from the “Constantinopolitan Irredentist” which Jihad Watch posted on the internet in its article “Iran Wants More Pope Rage” ( http://www.jihadwatch.org/ ), and think twice!!!

    From the “Constantinopolitan Irredentist” :

    CAIRO, Egypt – Al-Qaida in Iraq warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world, and Iran’s supreme leader called for more protests over the pontiff’s remarks on Islam.

    […]

    “The pope’s words have caused a deep wound in the hearts of Muslims that won’t heal for a long time, and then only after a clear apology to Muslims,” Egypt’s religious affairs minister, Mahmoud Hamdi Zaqzouq, wrote in a column in the government daily Al-Ahram on Monday.
    An influential Egyptian cleric, Sheik Youssef al-Qaradawi, called for protests after weekly prayers on Friday, but maintained they should be peaceful.

    Extremists said the pope’s comments proved that the West was in a war against Islam.
    Al-Qaida in Iraq and its allies said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as “the worshipper of the cross,” saying “you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. … We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the ‘jizya’ tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (being killed by) the sword.”

    What is most alarming is how confident Al Qaeda is that America won’t have the stomach to stay and fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, or for that matter to do anything to avoid Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons! I can almost hear the echos of Dean, Murtha, Durbin, and all the other defeatists, cut-and-run Democrats in such a statement!!!

    Can Democrats be so out of touch with reality, and so entrenched in their theoretical world of a multicultural, secular paradise, of relativistic moral values, that they cannot perceive this imminent threat?!?!

    Let us hope that if they don’t, the American people will, come November! Our very fate as a nation, as well as that of Western civilization may depend on it!!!

    Bush and our military, with almost 2700 of our Heroic soldiers dead in the process, did all the dirty work of removing Saddam and the Baathists from power in Iraq for the Jihadists. Now the Democrats just want to hand over Iraq to them on a silver platter!!!

    Althor (d8da01)

  59. You have no idea about the words you wrote in your post?

    I have no idea what your question means. Google tells me the latin phrase had a place in the elightenment and church thought. Did you find that place?

    actus (10527e)

  60. Anyway thank you people for the space to talk..
    & belive me Islam is not that form in you mind..& thats what i wanted to elaborate..
    I think this conflict can be fixed by just reading about Islam..from our side because we know Islam better & we know well what is in-definition & what is out-definition of Islam.

    Guys we need to understand each other…Just understand me right to get a common sense, to get a base for discussion, to get a life not a hell.

    I can ensure you that this is my concepts, my family’s, & my whole country’s concepts
    It is unfair to eradicate a nation for few refused radicals & some misunderstandings..

    Below is links from the other side..please do a visit:
    http://www.elnaggarzr.com/Test_fre/English/index_E.asp
    http://www.islaam.com
    http://www.islamonline.net
    http://www.islamway.com

    best regards
    Cairo,Egypt..
    Wafa

    Wafa (22fb25)

  61. actus:

    Google tells me the latin phrase had a place in the elightenment and church thought.

    Is this why you included it? Or does the translation modify your statement?

    Polymer (6946e1)

  62. Is this why you included it

    Yes.

    Or does the translation modify your statement?

    I think you’re under the impression that this:

    Often times, things are not what they appear

    Is a translation of what I wrote. It’s not.

    actus (10527e)

  63. Yes, I know. And often times, things are not what they appear.

    Hence, my question stands as to the modification.

    Polymer (6946e1)

  64. Hence, my question stands as to the modification

    “Eppur si muove,” is latin for “but still it moves”

    actus (10527e)

  65. Yes, I know. Presumably it is being used to modify or emphasise some point you wish to make. However, often times, things are not what they appear.

    Hence, the question as to the intended modification.

    Polymer (6946e1)

  66. actus,

    In the future, you would probably be better served in your debates if you made the effort to articulate your point by writing several sentences ‘the first time,’ rather than force everyone to play a guessing game of “20 Questions” with you.

    Desert Rat (ee9fe2)

  67. Presumably it is being used to modify or emphasise some point you wish to make.

    Yes. It is used to point to an example of how the pre-enlightenment church was not nice. So that it is not so surprising that their 14th century texts would have objectionable things in them: They used to try people for saying certain things moved.

    In the future, you would probably be better served in your debates if you made the effort to articulate your point by writing several sentences ‘the first time,’ rather than force everyone to play a guessing game of “20 Questions” with you

    It really isn’t that big of a leap Desert.

    actus (10527e)

  68. Emmanuel Paleologos II, whom the Pope quoted, was a Byzantine emperor at war with the expanding Ottoman Empire. He was not a cleric of “the Church” or even a Roman Catholic. This was not one of “their” 14th century texts. It was a ruler who was fighting for his nation’s survival (Constantinople fell about 60 years later) expressing his thoughts about his enemy while out in the field at the head of his army on the eve of a battle. Not some inquisitor torturing some astronomer to get him to recant that the earth moves around the sun. Sheesh. Double sheesh.

    nk (2ab789)

  69. Wafa,
    If you believe in Islam, then you know that the Koran says that the Torah is the true word of God. If that is the case, then Israel belongs to the Jews as God gave it to them. The only thing that the Jews did wrong was not slaughtering the ancestors of the Palestinians as God commanded.
    Please learn the history of the region and who was there first. In case you didn’t know it was the Jews and the Christians. The Crusades were to re-take the Holy Lands. Re-take means that they weren’t originally Moslem and due to the destruction of a great many churches by the Muslims. A fact often overlooked by Muslims.
    I’m sure I’ve offended someone by now. By the way, I don’t think the Pope said anything wrong.

    Karl (c71b8e)

  70. Karl,
    The Quraan said that Torah is the word of God..but as well said that it is edited..I am not saying so to debate or start arguing but just clarifying how I look to the issue properly

    Atually I am not a history professional..or with an interst indeed I admit.
    But I have no orders in my religion to except this land because God specialized it for jews..thats my situation.
    More over..to relate “dier yassin” & others to any religion on earth is a shame..for sure it is not related to jewish religion..we have the same God & I know my God well.

    Take a look at What Quraan said about jews..”I think..it is related to our issues”
    Chapter Al-Asra(night Journey)
    2
    We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Isreal, saying: Choose no guardian beside Me.
    3
    (They were) the seed of those whom We carried (in the ship) along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.
    4
    And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
    5
    So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who revaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.
    6
    Then We gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery,
    7
    (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So when the time for the second (of the judgements) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered which an utter wasting.
    8
    It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat the (punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.
    9
    Lo! this Quran guideth unto that which is straightest, and giveth tidings unto the believers who do good works that theirs will be a great reward;

    At last..In Islam there is not even a word related to destroying churches or any other thing related to the other heavinal religions..We as Muslims,hates that..alot
    & I do remember that Omar the secound caliph of muslims when he entered jerusalem while he was at a church, he refused to pray there in order not to be done by muslims..for respect to christians.
    thats my religion..& thats my belives..I am the one who knows it better..:)

    best regards karl 🙂

    wafa

    Wafa (e6db39)


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